Slashdot Mirror
UK Hacker Ryan Cleary Has Asperger's Syndrome, Court Told
An anonymous reader writes "Ryan Cleary, the British teenager accused of launching DDoS attacks at the likes of the Serious Organised Crime Agency (Soca) has been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, a court heard [Saturday]."
Looks like the UK Government are going to help him with his fear of open spaces.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Asperger's, what a fool!
You don't DDoS the Serious Organised Crime Agency.
Isn't that one of those super-villain syndicates from a comic book?
I don't have a source ready, but that has been his defense for over a year.
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
"it's not my fault i'm a sociopathic piece of shit"
Isn't that punishment enough?
Man on internet has aspergers. Film at 11: Sun is hot.
So what if he has Asperger? Are the lawyers implying that he is less responsible for his acts due his condition? Clearly they do not know anything about Asperger's syndrome and in fact are offending people with this kind of syndrome, this simply infuriates me, people with Asperger around the world are trying HARD to demonstrate that they can behave as normal as anybody else and this lawyers come with this just to save this guy's Ass, thats plain irresponsible!
I can see it now, every low-life scrote using that as an excuse for their actions.
"Yeah, I couldn't help meself from robbin' those cars. I've got me that Assburger's, ain't I?"
I've got a fever and the only prescription is more COBOL.
Gary McKinnon based much of his appeal to be exempted from extradition to the US on Aspergers & failed. Aspergers makes people mal-adapted to much of society but does not affect their comprehension of right/wrong & so is irrelevant.
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
Indeed. I probably have Abserger's, I score highly on most of the indicators, my wife (a paediatrician) thinks so, I think so. (I'm also a qualified doctor, but no longer practising). I have not been formally diagnosed, but I don't feel the need to do so.
I've never sought to make it into a "condition". It's not a label I apply to myself. It's just part of the way I am. In some ways, I consider myself fortunate - it's almost certainly a contributor to my facility with computers, a skill that puts bread on my table.
And it definitely doesn't interfere with your ability to distinguish right from wrong, or generate any uncontrollable urges to do "naughty" things.
In some ways, I *would* have like it spotted earlier, because I could have had an easier time of school if people had just explained to me some of the things that people take for granted are "built in", like an understanding of interpersonal relationships. I know I have developed purely intellectual ways of dealing with these things, because I spot myself doing it now. When I did an Asberger's test, I recognized that for many of the questions about social interaction, my answers were not typical of Asberger's - but that I would have answered very differently 20 years ago, largely because I now understand how to form a social niche that I find workable.
Thank you for your courage, sir.
It is a fascinating defense though. Psychological conditions are indeed correlated with troublesome behavior. He may in fact currently be in that social skill difficulty range. I agree with you that he is indeed responsible for his actions.
Suppose he believed some of the arguments we have seen defending such activities as the path of last resort to raise awareness of both security and the growing unrest among the people. His legal team may have chosen this defense in an attempt to lend credibility to those beliefs to the jury.
The question I ask of you is this: Do digital Robin Hoods deserve leniency if their intentions appear to be sufficiently instructive?
Copyright Video 1
No! I'm Asparagus!
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
This must be some new variant which only strikes when the Lulz stops and you're sniffing and blubbering in the cells.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Exactly. If he had been diagnosed with moderate to severe Autism or something and basically lived inside his own head it might be some excuse for his actions (ie not being able to understand they were criminal). Asperger's syndrome just means you have some of the cognitive issues, particularly in regard to social situations, that people with Autism share. If you have those symptoms to the point they are crippling you will generally get diagnosed with Autism.
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CINC, 4th Penguin Legion
Well, concerning the judgement of his guilt (wether or not he has done the deed accused), this should have no influence. When deciding about the amount of punishment required, this has to be taken into account. But this SOP for every court. Asperger is far from being incapable of distinguishing right from wrong.
But i also think, that if he was in Britain while comitting those alleged crimes, he should be tried there. I think this is, what is troublesome with this case. The rest is pure window dressing.
CU, Martin
Not to contest your point, since I'm not at all up on what organized aspies are up to, but for myself, I feel I'd rather not behave as normally as I feel a normal person is expected to behave. I'd very much like for society to just let me be odd. I don't want to keep trying to fit in.
I didn't know I had aspergers (or that's what they tell me) before I was in my thirties. And, if at all, it's a mild case. I've totally ruined my finances. I can't keep a regular job and can't get anything done. I've simply failed at life, from a normal, middle class perspective.
In other respects I'm a swell person. I'd just want to hang around with the few other oddballs I've somehow managed to amass around me. A meager pension would be sweet. That's unlikely, though. I gotta find a job with not much expectations or frustration. Preferably from home at my computer. Too bad I didn't geek out enough on the computers to be a developer or some such. That's possibly due to the ADD...
Yep.
Their job is to find absolutely anything which will get their client off and/or decrease the sentence. Doesn't matter if it's a medical condition, addiction, or something nasty like child sexual abuse, it's their duty to represent it to the court as something which drove the behaviour.
The prosecution will, of course, be digging up evidence that the kid is some kind of Machiavellian criminal mastermind using his inhuman hacking skills to springboard to world domination...
Log in or piss off.
I don't know what this means legally exactly but in UK law there is the defense of 'diminished responsibility'. For example, someone who would normally be convicted of murder may instead be convicted of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility if they were suffering from an abnormality of mind.
However what you seem to be suggesting is that if someone with a previously diagnosed condition would like it to be taken into account, then they shouldn't if sufferers of that condition usually try to get on with their lives? If so I think that's a difficult point to argue. Those with schizophrenia try to live normal lives and take responsibility for their actions but surely no one would claim that a sufferer who commits a crime whilst experiencing delusions was responsible.
It's a matter of degree. I once had someone with asperger's in one of my classes and it was very difficult indeed. She once walked into my colleague's office, ignoring him completely, and began browsing his bookshelf! Now, if she had walked out with one of those books, would she have been responsible for theft? Legally? Of course. Compassionately? I would make allowances based on her condition...
Keep calling? What are you mumbling about? In the GP there is ONE mention of "Abserger's" and TWO mentions of "Asberger's".
I seriously doubt that this counts as "keep calling". Being a wise-ass about a typo is just stupid. Then again, what can one expect from an AC at slashdot?
In the similar case of Gary McKinnon - who also has aspergers - his defence argued that extradition would be severely detrimental to his health. Being chucked in one of those super-jails - sharing a room with 12 other convicts - doesn't go too well with the typical inability to adapt to new routines or environments, found in those with the condition. I think he said he'd commit suicide if he had to go.
Agreed. I don't mean to dismiss Aspergers, because I know that there are some people that it actually applies to and who are actually impacted (to some degree) by symptoms of it. Like the inability to discern certain social and facial/emotional cues. However, since it first became a "thing" a few years ago, 90% of everyone on every geek oriented website has self-diagnosed themselves with it. You can set your clock by it, too. Post anything about it at any time and anywhere and a flock of people claiming that they're "pretty sure they have it" will arise. With such evidence as "I am kind of socially awkward sometimes" and "I get really obsessed with certain things" or "I am super detail oriented". (I've heard very few descriptions of Aspergers as anything other than just being different. Basically, if you weren't Mr. Outgoing, on the glee squad, and interested in football -- you have Aspergers.... of course, if you're outgoing and a social butterfly and interested in sports, you're probably going to be diagnosed as "suffering" from something else).
Aspergers is one of those things put in the DSM so loosely that pretty much anyone could theoretically be diagnosed with it. Sort of the same way most people read a horoscope and say "wow, how do they know me so well?!". What I don't get is the whole appeal of "wanting to have it". Some people seem so eager to claim they have Asperger's that you'd think it gave you a nine inch dick.
In this particular instance, it's actually a bit sickening. The impression I'm given from story after story after never-fucking-ending story about Aspergers is that it has nearly no impact on those that have it (which kind of makes it seem pointless to be a "thing" that has to be "diagnosed", right?). I mean, the people we're always given examples as "probably having Aspergers" are Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg and the like. Wow, what a terrible affliction. So it makes most people extremely intelligent, socially-awkward, wealthy successes . . . and this guy a criminal?
He might as well claim to be suffering from "seasonal affective disorder" (otherwise known to normal people as FUCKING WINTER).
Unfortunately, some people want to see it that way. You actually see it online believe it or not. There are more than a few, usually self-diagnosed (and thus likely not real) Asperger people who use it as an excuse to be jerks. They are extremely anti-social, hostile, and so on and have the attitude of "I have Asperger Syndrome so I can't function in normal society. This gives me license to act however I like since it is just something I can't change."
Pretty much if you can name a condition that causes people to have difficulty functioning normally, you can find someone who tries to take advantage of it to just not have to. It is sad, and insulting to those who don't want to be viewed as less capable just because they happen to be different, but it seems to be human nature. Exploitative assholes come in all forms.
Listen, you son of a bitch. You're supposed to be SUFFERING from this. We came up with the list of symptoms and added it to the DSM and made doctors and schools aware of it and wrangled the media into it. The least you can do is show that you appreciate this by SUFFERING and wanting to be like everyone else. You ungrateful prick!
There is something really messed up in the country when people testifying to court of law aren't trying to find out the truth but instead actively try to build up a hyperbole, even if they know it really isn't true.
... people with Asperger around the world are trying HARD to demonstrate that they can behave as normal as anybody else...
It strikes me that this is a really strange thing to say. Surely it is exactly the nature of Asperger's syndrome that they NEED to try hard BECAUSE their natural ability to grasp what is "normal" is different to the other people they interact with!
If your challenge was "he shouldn't be able to avoid prosecution on the grounds of his ability to perceive social standards", then the question is raised as to what the relationship between responsible agency and the comprehension of social standards is. We learn to understand what is right and wrong through our interactions with the social world around us, because that's the feedback mechanism - we get praised as kids for good behaviour and scolded for bad. Although law is a separate mechanism, concepts of consequence and contract (on which theories of law are often grounded) are both learned through the same kinds of channels.
Obviously, Asperger's entails a difficulty with such cognitive mechanisms, rather than a complete failure of them, so people nonethless retain responsibility for their actions. The question is to what extent this responsibility can be diminished in proportion with that difficulty, and there is a positive liberty argument to be made to the effect that you can't be held as a fully reasonable agent under the law when there are blatantly obvious consequences for your actions that you have never learned to formulate. That's also the essence of arguments for public education and not giving kids voting rights.
You are entirely entitled to feel offended that the position hasn't simply been immediately ruled out. After all, it suggests that being on the autism spectrum might affect one's entitlement to equal treatment under the law. But that doesn't make the position wrong. Consider cases of people with severe low-functioning Autism (which, it should be pointed out, are woefully neglected in the general media beyond childhood) - these are people with serious needs that they are not in a position to fulfil for themselves, and it often falls to family members to provide the difficult and expensive care that they require. To state straight-off that the law should be blind to such situations is just callous; it at least deserves consideration.
Finally, it should be entirely anticipated that people with Asperger's syndrome might have trouble seeing why the position could be right. That's what the condition is. So I'm sorry, but I think your judgement of "irresponsibility" is premature. We can't just throw out the argument of diminished responsibility on the grounds of sentiment or intuition. It's a proper legal discussion that needs to be had, and perhaps an important question of moral philosophy too.
Myu:
Heh. Why be normal? Normal people aren't any happier than I am.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
I doubt that had anything to do with aspergers. Sounds like the person was just a douche. Everything I've gathered from the barrage of media attention (and slashdot attention) on this over the years has made it pretty clear that Aspergers is to Autism what beige is to pitch-black. People wanting to make it popular often like to suggest that Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg and many others of their group have Aspergers. They're of sound mind the same way you and I are
Here. Go look at a list of the symptoms (you don't have to hit on them all to be diagnosable). Tell me the a good chunk of the list doesn't apply to at least 80% of the people you know. It's ridiculous.
http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/tc/aspergers-syndrome-symptoms
What does that have to do with aspergers?
Most people would go to well in prison. I'd probably seriously consider suicide if I was looking at doing time in a place where I had to be the bitch of one prison gang or another just to survive, live in a cell the size of a bathroom stall, and have absolutely no freedom.
Oh - also - MOST people don't like new routines or environments.
Not really, he's a doctor, OTHER people are supposed to figure out what he wrote...
What I don't get is the whole appeal of "wanting to have it". Some people seem so eager to claim they have Asperger's that you'd think it gave you a nine inch dick.
The point is this:
If you spent all your live struggling to understand the way social interaction works, if you always hat problems understanding why people behave this way or that and why they expect you to do this, it helps a lot if you get to know why you have these problems fitting in.
When you know that it's a medical condition and that you are not doing anything 'wrong', you can concentrate on living your life, rather than spent time trying to figure out the why.
Sure, a lot of people may misdiagnose themselves. But that doesn't mean that everybody who assumes he has Asperger's is wrong about this.
That's the way the UK, US and many countries do stuff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adversarial_system
Another approach is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisitorial_system
Except it is spelled with a P. Typos or not, those keys aren't that close together.
"Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
One way a "aspie" may compensate for issues in daily life is by forming a fantasy world where they have a degree of control.
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
if you can behave like everyone else then you're just like everyone else, aspergers is pretty non exactly defined, as is humour, as is poetry. the bold and the beautiful is full of people with aspergers, but it's so slight that most of the time they don't need cops around the house.
if the rumours about him are true (foil and everything) then he is wacko on the standard scale and it is a valid defense(which usually just goes to influence the type of punishment/forced_care, same thing really - it would be different if he was rolling in mafia cash with mafia hookers and doing it for coke'n'hoes, which he wasn't - hw asn't apparently even doing it for pure lulz).
it's all about person, if your bouts of whatever are counted as just being a jerk or just being a little strange in the head and that's how it's always been, it's not something that came to be in the 20th century. still, knowing how "e police" works, they're giving it their best to get him to admit to more than what he did(what's a conspiracy anyways? is this chat board a conspiracy? hard enough to know the differences even when you're titled a so called normally behaving citizen).
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Being weird isn't a medical condition.
I'm not saying that there aren't symptoms which can be severe enough together to deserve a diagnosis and some sort of effort to mitigate them for certain people, but all these people saying "well, gosh, I was awkward when I was in high school; now I know why" and therefore diagnosing themselves with Aspergers are just being dumb asses. People are different. Some are weird. Some are awkward. And in high school, pretty much EVERYONE was awkward. Hell, for the rest of life most people are kind of awkward.
There is this sick desire to label everyone who deviates from a specific and fine line of normality as having something wrong with them (treatable, of course!) and for everyone who deviates even slightly from the "norm" to be diagnosed. It's just messed up.
I don't intend my comments to apply to the few people who actually suffer from real and actual severe cases of legitimate Aspergers and have been diagnosed as such. Just the people who sickly cling to things like ADD, Aspergers, seasonal affective disorder, and whatever else they can think of to both differentiate themselves as unique and . . . explain why they have always felt different.
Actually, there's not currently any evidence that he did "the crime".
Strangely enough, there was a long thread about Aspergers on a gaming forum just last week in which a few people repeatedly refered to it as "Asbergers".
Indeed. People like that need to be heavily sedated. They could screw up the whole reimbursement model for treatment of the disorder.
people with Asperger around the world are trying HARD to demonstrate that they can behave as normal as anybody else
If they have to try that hard, then that says something in itself...
There's nothing in Asperger's that would "excuse" anyone from being tried regularly. Insanity is a defense used for those that couldn't, at the time, understand what they were doing was wrong. However, there is nothing in that which would dismiss a criminal case.
The previous application of Asperger's in the UK was to establish that it is a condition that would not be treated appropriately in the US were the person with it to be extradited. It wasn't used as a "he has this, he should be excused" argument, but that "he has a condition that would be ignored should he be extradited, and as such, it would be inhumane to extradite him because of that."
If you actually understood Asperger's, I'd assert that the most offensive thing about this article is the last sentence (specifically the snide comment in the last clause), "He said Cleary is highly intelligent but agoraphobic and has difficulty interacting with people, presumably unless they are on the end of an Internet connection." The last clause adds nothing to the article, but takes a shot at those with Asperger's using computers to shield themselves from others. It's actually a good thing. Those who do not use or understand social cues do much better where those cues are filtered so that everyone is on a level playing field. And for some, it's mentally not even talking to other people, or they would be more nervous. They type, responses show up. Whether those responses are people or bots or such is irrelevant. It's not personal contact and could be anyone anywhere or maybe nobody at all, so it doesn't trigger the same anxiety as being there in person.
Another aspect of Asperger's is that it is a spectrum disorder. That is, someone could have it and actually be indistinguishable from normal by others around them. And some will indistinguishable by those around them from someone with Autism. Those with the "light" version should be quite capable of passing themselves off as "normal" and those with the "heavy" version would have more trouble with it. That those with "light" Asperger's are trying hard to demonstrate normality is irrelevant to the ability of those with "heavy" Asperger's to do the same.
Learn to love Alaska
Wasn't there a law that you must not lie in court? Or does that not apply when you can just say "oh look this person's minor quirk looks like a condition! Easy defense". This is why most legal systems don't work. The only condition that should affect a sentence is one that prevents them from determining right from wrong, such as retardation, not "[a] disorder that is characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction, along with restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests." - Wikipedia. I hope the guy gets the full sentence.
I can't tell from the article what's going on in the case at this point. The previous UK resident to bring up Asperger's wasn't doing it to get out of the charges, but to affect the request for extradition (claiming it's a diagnosed condition that would not be appropriately treated in the US, and the US essentially agreed that it would not be considered or treated were he to be extradited).
Perhaps it's nothing more than setting up a basis for the agoraphobia or such to claim a basis for a neurosis or psychosis (aggravated by but not directly caused by Asperger's) that would be the grounds for an insanity plea. Or perhaps it's making sure to get out the "troubled teen with a mental disorder" line early and often in the case to affect sentencing should they lose, steering it to a hospital stay rather than prison if it comes to that. Or, like above, it could be setting the basis to deny an extradition, as the US system does not appear to take "mild" mental conditions seriously and refuses to treat or even acknowledge them within the justice system.
Learn to love Alaska
yep its the same as the previous case with Gary McKinnon - getting diagnosed after the fact.
+1, but I'm not convinced that your point about computers is "a good thing" per se. Computers are tremendously enabling for people with Aspergers, and I don't doubt that it gives people independence and self-governance in a way that is life-affirming and incredibly positive. The problem is that this very enabling is what creates social fragmentation.
Externalising the way we interact with the world is great when we externalise correctly. However, the epistemic gap to the world is always very difficult to bridge, and the problem with such externalisation is that it is so easy to get things wrong. For an example of doing it incorrectly, look at extremist religion. For a (very salient) example of doing it incorrectly online, look at 4-chan.
Myu:
The question I ask of you is this: Do digital Robin Hoods deserve leniency if their intentions appear to be sufficiently instructive?
No.
That's the way the legal system works in the US. Each side has an advocate whose goal is not to "find the truth" but rather to advocate their side. The idea is that the truth comes out in the clash of two strong advocates. It makes sense, because the idea that you are going to have disinterested investigators arrive at the truth is difficult to implement. After all, pretty much everybody has an axe to grind... may as well take advantage of that.
Computers are tremendously enabling for people with Aspergers, and I don't doubt that it gives people independence and self-governance in a way that is life-affirming and incredibly positive. The problem is that this very enabling is what creates social fragmentation.
I agree with your point. They allow for equal interaction without addressing the underlying issue. Much like chatting would allow a deaf person to interact with others without revealing any limitations. But, because we get people who don't address the spectrum as a spectrum, we get the "it's just Asperger's, everyone has it, just get over it" statements. When there's understanding and acceptance based on that (which would be little to none), it will encourage others to not even try. But if there was a permanent crutch, then there'd be little incentive to try to integrate. But again, as with the deaf community, they often deliberately segregate themselves and cause social fragmentation. But people don't fault them for it like they do people with Asperger's.
Since 80% (or so, depending on who you talk to) of communication is non-verbal, it could even be argued that the deaf people have a better chance of integrating with society than those with Asperger's, but yet they often segregate without complaint. But someone with Asperger's who tires of the work required to play in a society they don't fit in is considered a lazy quitter. It's that level of intolerance of Asperger's (usually promoted most strongly from those who have or think they have a mild form of it) that drives even more to give up because they just can't do it as easily as those who say they have it have done, so they must be doing something wrong. And there are very few resources for those with it (and many more for those who are parents of those with it). The general answer is "just deal with it."
Learn to love Alaska
Ass Burgers? http://i.imgur.com/N8Igz.jpg
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
Oh c'mon, all hackers have some form of autism. The two go together. But just because they are autistic, doesn't mean they have no self-control, self-awareness enough to not be jailed. One thing is being an out-of-your-mind delusional serial killer with torn sense of reality and a heap of issues as a result of I dunno, destroyed childhood and systematic abuse, and another a spoiled kid knowingly hacking around. It's a safe bet he knew what he was doing, the way normal people know things, not the way autists look at paintings, books or whatever else it is they interpret completely differently.
At least, reduce his sentence, but let's plead the court does not go as far as letting him go. Maybe take away his Internets for a little while (nobody can live without Internet, it's suicide.)
No need - shower soap now comes from dispensers.. .. mounted a foot off the floor. :-)
Insert
What a load of BS. Someone with Asperger's can perfectly tell right from wrong. They may not be able to pick up *social* clues, but there is nothing wrong with their sense of right and wrong other than that it sometimes is a bit more rigid than socially acceptable.
Trying this sort of BS is not going to help with his defense, but may harm others who are trying to lead a normal life.
Don't do the crime if you cannot do the time.
Insert
Should he be extradited? Yes. Will he? Probably not. Here's why: -He attempted suicide previously. -His mother is diagnosed with bipolar disorder, which is often hereditary. -He shows signs of multiple illnesses, many of which psychologists are unable to diagnose. -He is 19. -He has severe agoraphobia. And most of all: The defense is that he won't be able to adjust to being extradited, his mother saying, "sending him to America is a death sentence", and seeing as how McKinnon still hasn't been extradited after four years, I see no reason why this will be any different. It's a damn shame. Read this article, and you'll see why this shit won't get what he deserves: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2007094/Ryan-Clearys-mother-reveals-hacker-issued-suicide-threat.html
Not sure if troll, or incredibly stupid.
You do know, that children are not little angels?
There is no normal. Normal is just what *some* people wish to define as the way to be, as a means for them to ostracize anyone who fails to conform to *their* expected pattern of behavior
I would very strongly argue Asperger's isn't even a developmental "problem". I don't see a problem, I see an opportunity, if only society would embrace that opportunity. Being and behaving different isn't a crime. Being so intensely interested in the details of something, when others look on blankly and shrug their shoulders isn't a crime. Being disinterested in the superficial and preferring to focus on the intensely complex details in life isn't a crime. But it is treated like a crime in all societies where the superficial people are held up as role models.
It takes a certain kind of person to spend 20, 30 even 40 years of their life, studying something with such intensity and attention to detail that others cannot even begin to see their interest in that subject. But then that person emerges from their detailed studies and they are often a world authority on the subjects they have been studying. These people change the world and they greatly contribute to science. But not all achieve their potential. Many suffer low self esteem due to how they are treated. (Note I refer specifically to Aspergers, not the whole Autistic spectrum (as I know some need help) but even some of the non-Asperger Autistics can achieve far more in life if only their low self esteem was greatly helped).
So I utterly hate what the lawyers have been doing to UK Hacker Gary McKinnon and now also UK Hacker Ryan Cleary. I hate the side effects of their defense team's moves to mis-categorize Asperger's as some kind of reason to feel sorry for them. They are seeking to categorize Aspergers as basically a form of mental retardation, when in reality it could be further from the truth. Asperger's know right from wrong, its just that Aspergers often have a usually idealistic world view and unfortunately not everyone is like that (I wish the world was like that because a world of idealistic Utopian thinkers would be far better than the twisted, two faced, underhandedly evil, real world we all have to deal with).
By the way, the superficial in society, if you haven't already guessed are the Histrionic Personality Disordered people (HPD) in society. The most aggressive self interested attention seekers combine HPD with NPD (Narcissistic personality disorder), resulting in someone who will ruthlessly put down anyone who stands out around them as different and anyone talking with any interest or authority on their interests is standing out and so showing up the HPD / NPD people as not knowing much and so these people will condemn the people who study deeply. The HPD want to regain the center of attention and the NPD can't accept anyone being better than them at anything. (Therefore a HPD+NPD person is very bad news to be around).
As a result, Aspergers often suffer low self esteem due to this relentless barrage of frankly outright abuse. If only more of them could learn to accept being different isn't a crime and also learn to see through the vocal minority in society who seek to condemn others (for their own two faced gain). I should also note, its not just Aspergers who suffer this abuse, its everyone, its just Aspergers tend to stand out without trying and so they really suffer badly from it. (Through no fault of their own!).
There is no normal, there is just life, everyone is different, its just some what to be the center of attention so they seek to misrepresent others (for their own gain).
"The prosecution will, of course, be digging up evidence that the kid is some kind of Machiavellian criminal mastermind using his inhuman hacking skills to springboard to world domination..."
That's the common (and faulty) perception of the public prosecutions role in our justice system.
Sorry but not. The public prosecution/defense doesn't work in a symmetric way: it's true that defense should look for any legal breach that will allow its client to get rid of charges, but it's false that the prosecution role is trying the opposite, looking for anything within legal boundaries that will get with the trialed bones in jail, the longer the better. The prosecution role is to find the truth and from the truth any legal responsibility that might arise. Just that.
She was generally a pleasant person but distinctly odd. Her father and brother were ASD (her mother told our administrator once when she called about some missing coursework). She was very bright - once spotted an arithmetic error in a 12-page handout within about 10 seconds of getting it, but term marks were always poor, just the bare minimum of effort to get through.
Overall there was nothing very specific that you could call a 'symptom', just inappropriate socially. She would frequently interrupt me in class and wouldn't 'get the message' that the others were irritated. Once another student said 'we hear a lot about you, who are you?' and she replied 'you hear a lot from me, not about me'. Another time she got an Excel handout that began 'double click the icon on the desktop' - she looked, literally, on the desk in front of her, even though we had been using the terminology for weeks in class - it was a different context and the knowledge didn't transfer.
Interestingly I read her 'disabilities review form' and she wrote candidly about what it was like for her. She said that she wished the tutors would 'discipline her for interrupting in class' and that she wished everyone wore name badges. She also said that the reason she chose our university is that we asked the right questions about her condition, and that she turned down places at each institution that referred to wheelchairs (of course most use a single generic form).
So, yes, it was her condition that led to this sort of behavior, but whether it was 'classic' asperger's I couldn't say.
I have some troubles with Asperger's myself, yet I still can tell the difference between right and wrong. What is this, the "waah, waah, I'm a victim" defense?
Regards;
Its pretty common now to hear many crimes that the defendant didnt really intend to do - it was just a medical condition. Tony Weiner calims to have gone into meidcal rehad, and so on. Few people are ever responsible for their actions anymore.
In a hospital the government will have absolute control over him mentally and physically. He will have no rights whatsoever.
He might be better off in a prison where at least he wont be psychologically and medically tortured.
Usually it means the government has something really bad in store for you when they label you crazy.
Sluggishly progressing schizophrenia or sluggish schizophrenia (Russian: ; vyalotekushchaya shizofreniya) was a category of schizophrenia diagnosed by psychiatrists in the Soviet Union. At the time, Western psychiatry recognized only four types of schizophrenia: catatonic, hebephrenic, paranoid, and simple.
The diagnostic criteria for this fifth category were so vague that it could be applied to virtually any person not suffering from mental function impairment and having interests beyond survival needs. The diagnosis was sometimes applied to dissidents who were not in fact mentally ill, so that they could be forcibly hospitalized in mental institutions and subjected to treatments including powerful antipsychotics and electroconvulsive therapy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggishly_progressing_schizophrenia
I think this hacker in specific Ryan Cleary has pissed off the CIA syndrome. The treatment is indefinite detention in a mental institution where he can be treated for his obvious malfunction.
And they'll get it out of him one way or another. It looks to me like they have taken the gloves off. He will probably have it as bad if not worse than Bradley Manning.
In my not-a-doctor, not-a-lawyer opinion, the defense of "diminished responsibility" is a very good idea in general, but it should not apply to people with Asperger's. While it's a serious condition, I don't think affects your ability to judge right from wrong severely enough to be a legal defense.
Part of the reason for this is that a classic symptom of Asperger's is the person's strict adherence to and insistence upon rules. Asperger's folks will freak out at you for jaywalking: if anything, they're *less* likely to walk blindly past the law than your average Joe.
Your colleague's experience matches my own: I have a student who wanders into my office without a word to look at my books and toys as well. But I'll note that despite your fears, your student didn't *actually* take anything, and neither has mine: while the idea of "personal space" and "polite greeting" are kinda alien to her, she knows that stealing is wrong.
I have found myself saying that i would wish the issue would turn my skin blue or something, so that people could actually see that there was a problem present.
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
So what if he has Asperger? Are the lawyers implying that he is less responsible for his acts due his condition? Clearly they do not know anything about Asperger's syndrome and in fact are offending people with this kind of syndrome, this simply infuriates me, people with Asperger around the world are trying HARD to demonstrate that they can behave as normal as anybody else and this lawyers come with this just to save this guy's Ass, thats plain irresponsible!
Well yeah, that's more or less what the lawyers are implying. And it should be given the weight it deserves - very little. Aspergers does not mean someone cannot tell right from wrong and therefore they should have little excuse under law for their actions. The guy knew full well what he was doing and if the charges are proven then he gets shoved in some US prison then it will be 100% his own fault. One would think that someone with agrophobia would think better than to break the law given the potential consequences of being caught.
My son has Asperger's. He seems to be able to refrain from criminal activity.
I think anyone who has Asperger's would be pretty pissed off by this moronic defense attorney trying to imply that their condition has anything to do with the ability to distinguish right from wrong.
Intelligence and Asperger's are independent traits. Its possible to be both (in fact its been said that Bill Gates might have a touch of Asperger's).
There was a brilliant investment fund manager that suffered from Asperger's. While all of the people from Goldman Sachs and AIG were pushing their mortgage-backed security crap on the rest of the world by smiling, shaking hands and saying, "Trust me", he kept insisting on analyzing the data and ignored the social pressure. He saw through the whole load of bullshit, shorted the CDO markets ahead of the collapse and earned his clients billions of dollars.
Being able to blow off the whole peer pressure thing (it ain't cool to be smart) and achieve something looks a bit like Asperger's. The "maladjusted" label is often applied to people who don't kow tow to the captain of the football team. Big fucking deal. But that's no excuse for what Cleary did.
Have gnu, will travel.
summer vacation. june is slashdot's september.
"They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
And it's been going on for thousands of years like that. Read some of the old Icelandic sagas, i.e in "Njáls saga" there is great descriptions of a trail at the thing and it's not a matter of who is right or wrong as much as who knows the law best that wins the trail. It's quite interesting to see that we still today basically use the same system.
This hearing was just to request bail, so their argument is that his condition should be considered when deciding if he has to remain in prison on remand or not.
When the trial proper starts I imagine they will argue that the internet makes people behave differently due to the pseudo-anonymity it offer, and an Asperger's sufferer is more prone to being caught up in hacking groups than a normal person. They will probably also argue that he was not fully aware of the consequences of his actions.
Gary McKinnon's lawyers are arguing something similar. In his case it seems a reasonable assertion to me. He was clearly a bit nuts (medical term) because he thought the US government was covering up evidence of UFOs. He read websites and books on the subject and was more influenced by them than a normal person who due to social norms would have been more included to reject them as nutters too.
I'm not saying it excuses either of them, but it should be considered.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
He got his Aspergers Syndrome diagnosed in a week.
I have been on the waiting list for getting my Aspergers Syndrome diagnosed for 2 years and I expect to have a few more to wait, since I'm not prioritized (single, no kids,not a teenager and not caught doing a crime).
Looks like it's time to travel to UK and commit a crime (that I can hope to get away with too if I'm lucky).
Personally I don't see how having AS could make him not understand what he did was illegal, but it's his lawyers job to find anything that can help him in court. And the judge/jury job to see if it matters, and that haven't been done so far.
The prosecution will, of course, be digging up evidence that the kid is some kind of Machiavellian criminal mastermind using his inhuman hacking skills to springboard to world domination...
Seems that all he is being accused of is running an IRC server used by Anonymous and joining in with some DDOS attacks (probably using LOIC). There doesn't seem to be any link to LuzSec as all the crimes he is accused of took place last year.
Showing that he was caught up with Anonymous and egged on to join in while suffering a mental condition that makes him prone to that sort of thing seems like a pretty good defence.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
I signed in to get the full brunt of karmic demise, and because this isn't something AC can say with any validity...
Asperger's is not something that every discovers after a while. It is not just social ineptitude and awkwardness. Every time some criminal or pre-tween internet troll claims they suffere from asperger's they are hurting the community of people with real syndromes and illnesses. I have lived with autism my whole life -- in that my brother suffers from it. When my parents die I will be legally responsible for him. It is serious and affects nearly every aspect of life. Asperger's, in the funny definition (and possible the most accurate) was said to contracted after reading the wikipedia article on it.
This definitely has something to do with my generations sick obsession with 'being the most fucked up.' I have heard arguments about who's took the most medication or who has the strongest pills. Society is failing somewhere and this is the result.
Not at all to imply that it isn't a real thing, but they are belittling the condition when every other kid who didin't know what to say in a random social encounter is diagnosed with it. Some people are different - not broken, not sick, just different. But when we see this we must label it, must diagnose and 'treat' whatever ails them. That mentality just sets us up to be susceptible to this type of justice-tomfoolery.
OMG facts!
I hate LulzSec and I strongly dislike Ryan Cleary, but he should not be deported to the USA. If it were another country, maybe, but the USA: NO!
I know he possibly took part in the hacking of several USA companies, but since the USA are Nazis that don't respect human rights, lock up people without trial, allow secret evidence in courts, etc. then nobody has the right to seek justice in a US court. These hacked companies don't like it? Shouldn't have done business with the 21st century Nazis.
Sorry buy you seem to know very little about how Asperger's Syndrome works. I have moderate Asperger's and have difficulty interacting with people. The issue is not that I do not understand what is right or wrong, as in a law, but what is expected in social situations. In fact Aspergers has made me more of a rules lawyer than the average person. Laws are very black and white; it is very clear what is right or wrong and I have no problem discerning that. The widely known law against DoS attacks is not an issue for people with Asperger's.
In social situations there are no laws. Different things happen in different situations governed by clues that I do not pick up on. What is socially acceptable one minute is not acceptable the next. This kind of chaos, which a neurotypical person can handle, is frustrating and confusing to me.
Aspregers is not a cognitive issue; it is a intuitive issue. We think about everything and have very good analytical, problem solving skills. That is why most people with Aspergers are very intelligent. To us every social interaction is a thought process. We have to think about everything as we have little or no "gut feeling" on what to do. Where most people intuitively know what to do and how to act, people with Aspergers must think about it and make a decision. We compare the current situation with past situations and try to find the best fit. Sometimes we are right and sometimes we are wrong. Think about trying to keep track of someone's tone, posture, facial expressions, inflection, choice of words, etc to figure out what is going on. Now multiply that by the number of people in a social situation. This is a very tiring and frustrating experience for us so we sometimes avoid social contact. Another aspect of this is that we always seem to be behind conversations because we had to think about what to say and rehearse how to say it.
It is not that people with Aspergers do not have the cognitive mechanism to delineate right from wrong but that we do not have the intuitive mechanism to deal with the changing social aspects of life.
D'oh! :-)
One way a "aspie" may compensate for issues in daily life is by forming a fantasy world where they have a degree of control.
Oh, like the large proportion of the planet that watches television all day?
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
This is biology. It's not black or white. It's shades of gray. Aspergers (and every other psychiatric diagnosis and most purely 'medical' diagnoses) are found on a continuum. It becomes pretty arbitrary when you call a set of symptoms a 'disease' or just a 'personality trait'. Most people get depressed from time to time. Some people stay that way and have that feeling permeate their life. Most people can act a tad manic at times. Only a few can go full bore onto a recognizable manic episode. It comes down to genetics, environment, luck of the draw, feng shu and probably other things.
If you are going to treat these problems with any sort of reductionist bent, you have to put them in a pigeon hole. Gets confusing and annoying at times.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Double edged sword. Some people respond to the Hulk with calming words and soothing music. Some people taunt him and shoot at him. Almost no one asks him out on a date or chats about the latest TV shows.
Might be a case for leniency by the Judge but if he's a crook, he's a crook. Remember, lots of people with Aspergers haven't gone on to have criminal careers.
"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
The issue is not that I do not understand what is right or wrong, as in a law, but what is expected in social situations. In fact Aspergers has made me more of a rules lawyer than the average person. Laws are very black and white; it is very clear what is right or wrong and I have no problem discerning that. The widely known law against DoS attacks is not an issue for people with Asperger's.
Maybe I'm reading too much into what you're saying, but the law does not determine what is right or wrong. Laws are a kind of social norm and every social norm is learned through social interaction [1]. The only thing that makes laws special is that they are enforced by the state, through violence if necessary. But that doesn't mean that every individual has to automatically follow them. Just with every other norm (e.g. clothing standards, etiquette) it is up to the individual to decide to conform to the norm or reject it if one is prepared to face the consequences. And if one decides that a particular law is unjust, it could be argued that the morally right thing to do is to break the law and live with the consequences.
[1] For example, the law might say that the speed limit is 55, but that's not the social norm that is codified by the law. On the highway, you'll find that people go faster or slower depending on circumstances. In other words, just reading what the law says won't give you a complete picture on how society generally agrees to interpret the law.
Free Manning, jail Obama.
I was just observing on how people with physical handicaps seems to have a much easier time getting accepted as such...
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
lawyers come up with this just to save this guy's Ass
It depends how severe it is.
The Admin and the Engineer
I have been diagnosed with this, too.
I never thought anything of it, I just thought it was work ethic. That's something it seems no-one in this nation values anymore.
Sports and idle party-talk bore the shit out of me. I thoroughly enjoy a good science chat. Yep, that's why I am here on Slashdot, not facebook.
In my younger years, I got to work with some people just like me - and thoroughly enjoyed it. Good engineering work requiring lots of ingenuity and cleverness to build the things we did. Big business bought up the little company, brought in their managers, and goodbye having any fun.
No, I do not "team play" very well, Neither was I a fraternity guy - to me those were just guys who got by by cheating by having access to all the professor's old tests.
No, I did it the hard way. I did the work personally. Got "A"'s too. Today, no one seems to respect that. Rewards go to those who can connive others to do the work.
Damm aspergers. If I had only done the party thing, I could have been one of those guys the MBA hires to lay guys like me off for lacking "social skills".
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
Tho it could perhaps be that he considered the targets attacked as corrupt, and so in the wrong, making his actions right in a vigilante justice kind of way.
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
And that can be a trigger issue. Big corporation or government agency breaks the law, or seen as doing so, covertly or overtly, but gets a social pass for some reason or other. This then triggers a drive towards righting the wrong, perhaps resulting in vigilante "justice".
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
If you truly care about your son, you will take the time to get informed as the CJS can screw with an AS sufferer in ways that will make you sick.
Yes, but many "normal" criminals believe that. It's not a legit legal defense.
nailed it (I'm also aspergery)
If you don't risk failure you don't risk success.
You're missing it! They're not saying that he is in any way less responsible for his actions. They are saying that the usual imprisonment might constitute cruel and unusual punishment for him. That would mean some sort of alternative punishment, not no punishment.
He might as well claim to be suffering from "seasonal affective disorder" (otherwise known to normal people as FUCKING WINTER).
Some people get the winter blahs, some get a major depressive episode and kill themselves. You're more or less committing the same offense you accuse others of by claiming "yeah, everyone gets that".
Likewise, some are very mildly affected by Aspergers (which may or may not be just another term for very high functioning autism) and some are much more severely affected. You would look at a person with a paper cut and say "yeah, yeah, so your legs got chopped off, everyone gets a cut now and then, but we don't go moaning about needing a hospital and special ramps and shit!".
You say you don't mean to dismiss it, but it sounds EXACTLY like you do just that.
This kid may or may not actually have it. I wouldn't know, I haven't met him and I don't even know who made the diagnosis. It may or may not be severe enough that some accommodation needs to be made. However, it could be.
I think the random number generator is not very reliable. I've had mod points quite a lot recently. The only times I've ever used them, I've been mod-bombing persistent trolls (even their non-troll posts). If metamod were working correctly, this would mean that all of my moderations would be marked as unfair and I wouldn't get any more mod points. The fact that I just got given another 5 implies that it's horribly broken.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Although it was less time since I was at school, I feel the same way. Maybe it's because I'm younger, but even throughout the day I can catch myself making a conscious decision to not react a certain way, as the reaction to a previous similar encounter was unfavourable. I can't help but think that others simply do not think to react in the way I need to specifically instruct myself to avoid.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
You should have posted this as a journal entry rather than a comment. With their new setup, your journal will be on the front page, at least for a little while.
At any rate, I actually went years without mod points -- but I was commenting prolifically, and seldom being modded down. Once in a while someone will modbomb me and I'll get a page of moderations in the "messages" page all modded down.
I went a month or so without commenting -- extra busy month at work and just glanced at stories to see if there were any new tech developments I'd missed elsewhere and started getting mod points out the yinyang. Sometimes I'd have mod points left and get more before they expired. Someone on my fans list (I friend anyone who friends me and read their journals, and for nobody) posted a journal asking why it seemed he got few points, only five at a time, and I had fifteen fresh points that morning. Started posting more often during a slow period at work and the mod points dried up.
There are a few asshats gaming the system with sock puppets, or at least that's a hypothesis put forward in someone's journal, and it seems reasonable to me. I occasionally get modbombed, but I just don't worry about it. My karma's never suffered (have a look at the number of +5s I've gotten since they started the "achievements" pages).
If your karma's good enough you can metamod any time -- that's where I saw this comment (and sorry, but I had to mod you offtopic, and am downmodding myself with the "no bonus" checkboxes). The way the new metamoderation works is strange and I wish they'd bring the old way back. It's like moderating without limits -- I've even seen my own comments while metamoderating!
At any rate, hope this was informative (but if anyone moderates it, please mod me offtopic).
Free Martian Whores!
Have you been getting them 5 at a time? I have been getting them 15 at a time, and often times I wouldn't be able to finish using them, before getting more. I only modded up as insightful, interesting, or informative.
testing out my trending skills
Yup, only 5 at a time, although I seem to get a new set of 5 almost as soon as I finish using them.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
They probably will end up charging the SOCA of being too vigilant. Same country where if you whack a robber with a stick in your own home you get sent to jail?
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
Nah, it's their rationalization for not being able to find a girl who wants to spend any time with them.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
The issue is that the law is a static rule. It doesn't say that if you are in a hurry you can speed. It doesn't say that if you are upset you can speed. It doesn't say that on a blue moon the speed limit is now 40. It does not say that if you are beautiful you can speed. Social situations change like that. Laws are written down, codified and do not change very often. If I choose to speed it is a cognitive choice not a guess what the speed limit is as determined by the current circumstances. There is a huge difference between I know what the speed limit is but chose to break it and what the hell is the speed limit based on factors that I am blind to.
And therein lies the problem, laws are static while social interactions are not. OTOH, laws are not an end to themselves, but a means to regulate society through common agreement. Thus there will always been friction when it comes to law and society acknowledges this. That's why we have courts.
I'm afraid that I didn't make myself clear enough, so I'll try again. The speed limit codifies a social norm, namely a proscription of driving at unsafe speeds. But the law is not the same as the norm, it's just the way the state chooses to regulate it. And the law doesn't even cover the entire norm. If visibility is low, it is expected that one drives slower. OTOH, someone driving well below the speed limit on a highway in good conditions will become a hindrance. One might be following (the letter of) the law, but at the same time, one is violating the social norm of not driving at an unsafe speed.
In other words, laws are decidedly not black and white. There are always open to interpretation even if the text leaves little wiggle room.
Free Manning, jail Obama.
Probably because I don't obsess about it enough to learn the correct spelling.
First a couple of points. Most speed laws have a clause about weather conditions and causing a hindrance to traffic. These are very few and cognitively manageable parameters.
The social interactions are much more complex. I was thinking about this last night and came up with an analogy. A neurotypical person in social interactions is like driving down a highway with speed signs at reasonable places; the rest of the clues come from intuition. For a person with Asperger's it is more like driving down a road with traffic signs every 20 feet, some in English, some in other languages, some with time of day parameters, some with different meaning depending on the orientation of the sign. Even driving the same highway over and over again is no help because the signs change at random intervals. We miss signs and misinterpret signs because it is physically impossible to think that fast. Where a neurotypical person just does what feels right someone with Asperger's has to think about it.
The point is that there is no social norm for social interaction as it changes based on the mood of everyone in the interaction. What was expected 5 minutes ago may not be what is accepted now but may be expected 5 minutes from now. When one has to cognitively think about every parameter of a social interaction it is very tiring and frustrating.
You make a point about "common agreement". There is no common agreement when it comes to social interaction. Different people are treated differently at different times based on the mood of the people in the interaction. For example if one is calm one would react to a joke much differently that if one is stressed. If someone with Asperger's can not pick up on the stress level of another person then a joke may have drastic consequences. There is no social norm saying that the joke is acceptable or not as it changes.
A good example is Dr Reid on Criminal Minds. Early in the series he would ramble on about interesting but irrelevant facts. Some times his ramblings helped; sometimes they didn't. Recently he has been able to recognize Hotchner's look when he starts rambling. He still isn't perfect because he starts and has to say "that's not relevant" before he stops. After years of interaction Reid has been able to pick out that one important sign from that one person.. Try doing that kind of learning when you interact with different people every day.
To take this conversation back to the original topic; Asperger's is not a cognitive issue, it is an intuitive issue. Try going into every social interaction and ask yourself why you react the way you do and why other people react the way they do. Try doing that while carrying on a conversation.