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NYC Mayor Demands $600M Refund On Software Project
alphadogg writes "New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg is demanding that systems integrator Science Applications International Corporation reimburse more than $600 million it was paid in connection with the troubled CityTime software project, a long-running effort to overhaul the city's payroll system. 'The City relied on the integrity of SAIC as one of the nation's leading technology application companies to execute the CityTime project within a reasonable amount of time and within budget given the system's size and complexity,' Bloomberg wrote in a letter Wednesday to SAIC CEO Walter Havenstein. CityTime was launched in 2003 at a budget of $63 million, but costs swelled dramatically as the project stumbled along for nearly a decade."
Because large government programs always run on time and on budget.
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The Honorable Mayor Bloomberg is shocked, shocked, to discover fraud and waste going on here...
Last time I heard of them, it was with the failed FBI casebook system. Does SAIC have a generally good delivery rate on projects otherwise?
The bitter lessons of a veteran coder: http://bitterprogrammer.blogspot.com
Nothing seems so simple as Time and Attendance software until you to write/consult on/implement Time and Attendance software.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Was there no off-the-shelf software good enough? Not for $60M? Really?
-- My hovercraft is full of eels.
When he realized he could possibly bully a company for $600M for some revenue.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
The EULA specifically says that you can't ever, never sue us--for any reason. It also says that this software is not in any way obligated to ever function.
Hey, you clicked through it.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
If something's owned by everybody it's owned by nobody, and that's exactly who'll gives a fuck about making it work well.
"[New York City] just laid off 500 public school aides who make $18,000 a year, while they’re paying all these [230 software consultants] that are making $400,000 and $500,000 a year for a failed system." http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/26/juan_gonzalez_ny_pays_230_consultants
It's not unique for government. See DNF.
Agreed, coming from Public Safety, the requirement changes are so politicized its insane. Not to say SAIC isn't responsible for some/all of the mess, but I can say I know what its like dealing with mega-conglomerate counties/cities and their inconsistent demands. For $600 million, I think all of us here could have delivered something more than SAIC did though. I would code 22hrs a day for 2 years for that $600 million and make it happen, and then just coast :)
'We are trying to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible, because only in that way can we find progress.' RPF
CityTime was launched in 2003 at a budget of $63 million, but costs swelled dramatically as the project stumbled along for nearly a decade.
- this is the problem with government programs: from the very beginning they are already deep in trouble. It makes no sense that a computer payroll system should start at 63 million, why did it start at that number from the beginning?
It makes no sense that government should be so large, as to require a computer payroll system that starts as a 63 million project, never mind that anybody getting that contract will make their best to prolong it as much as possible, simply because it IS government and it does not care about costs.
When somebody says that government can do things efficiently, and they use the postal office as an example, they should really go back to that premise and realize, that the US post office is out of cash - it's selling 'forever stamps' today, and assuming it doesn't just dissolve over the next few years, it won't be able to make any money at that time and it will be in a worse fiscal shape than it is today, because the stamps sold today are basically protection against the 10% (current level) of monetary inflation that US Fed and Treasury are incurring on US population. Today the postal office cannot function already and they sell the forever stamps, tomorrow, they'll have to raise the prices but people will use those forever stamps and the postal office will either have to default on that stamp or dissolve, or there will be another bail out, and people use that as one of 'better' examples of government 'efficiency'.
Another example they give is Medicare, while not realizing that Medicare costs are spread out among various parts of government that are not calculated into the costs directly, and just like SS, that program is bankrupt today, being the biggest pyramid scams of all times, making Madoff look like a preschooler.
Anyway, back to this topic - who was the NYC mayor at the time when this ridiculous project started I wonder? Oh wait, Bloomberg has been the mayor of NYC since 2002 and this project started in 2003. So where was he all the time when the costs overran by x2, by x3, by x5, is the magic number for a politician to look at some cost overruns only when they exceed the x10 estimate?
People blame corporations and businesses for waste and fraud, but at least corporations and businesses have to extract their money from customers (well, unless they are government protected monopolies of-course) by selling products that customers want.
When business overruns its costs and credits like that, it likely goes under. Shouldn't the same apply to governments? I think it should. And those, who are allowing the money of tax payers to be wasted like that do need to spend some time thinking about in jail. Same should be done on all levels - federal and state and municipal, maybe then the governments will stop bailing out failing businesses and causing massive economic collapses.
You can't handle the truth.
Yes, I have actually worked in this field. And yes, payroll is more complicated than it seems on the surface. But it's not that complicated. It's not "I can build a dozen F-14s for less" complicated.
The money spent on these types of applications is just obscene. There's gotta be major corruption in the procurement process. And it's everywhere; this isn't just a NYC problem.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
No one happens to know of a way to take ownership of posts you mistakenly posted anonymously?
Naw, and probably won't happen. Too many people who are afraid of posting something that might not fit in with what ever group think they "think" is happening on /.
You know those "I'm posting AC because I can't speak my mind otherwise because I would get modded down one point." morons. They would just post AC, see how it panned out, then if it didn't work out they would leave it be, but if it got modded positively they would try to reclaim ownership.
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
that it is commonly believed that specifying software is easy. It is very hard even for smart people and to my mind should be avoided if at all possible. What NYC should have done was to find a payroll system they liked, perhaps had it tweaked a little by the vendor where there were irreconcilable differences and then changed their own payroll practices to fit the capabilities of the software. As others have said, it's not as if New York is the only state with a payroll to process.
SAIC make their living out of poorly written specs, they have no interest in getting a decent spec.
Furthermore, this is an area where open source excels, one can generally quickly make a decent prototype and once you have discovered what you like through trial and error you can either use the working prototype as a specification or simply scale-up the software you have and use it for whatever period you choose, you won't be forced to upgrade on a vendor's timetable (another source of "perpetual gravy").
Nullius in verba
Too many times contractors will get to a position where they become entrenched and start raising the cost, changing the contract, and never having the intention to actually meet the agreed time and price.
Then politician don't sue because they are afraid it might hurt their image.
We need more public official to call these companies on there shenanigans.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The problem with projects when the Govt is involved is this.
It is TAX PAYER money that is paying for it. So, people tend to take their time shall we say, when doing the project. In otherwords, when it is NOT your money at risk, rather tax payer money, there is no risk. If it were an investors money or YOUR money, you would monitor very closely the project and not let it drag on and on, no matter what the excuse is. Pretty simple concept to understand.
if there was not a permanent record of everything I said logged in, i might always post logged in. But there is, i don't want flim flam on my record, so bite us -anonymous
CS majors know the time/space tradeoff, but they never get taught the 3rd, crucial, tradeoff of the set: comprehension!
What SAIC did was morally wrong, BUT I am certain there were a lot of people involved in that project that allowed this to happen. One would assume that the New York City government is not being run by a bunch of ignorant hicks paying top dollar for a pig-in-a-poke. There is plenty of culpability to go around, and some city officials need to be investigated.
Proverbs 21:19
(i checked the anonymous box but people with guns and warrants stormed the building before I could hit post and told me we're living in the future, now, son!)
CS majors know the time/space tradeoff, but they never get taught the 3rd, crucial, tradeoff of the set: comprehension!
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
i had a shift that started on sunday night and ended monday morning.
our timesheets were constantly screwed up.
dont get me started on holidays, 'premium hours', overtime thats not really overtime, etc etc etc.
if any vendor had ever worked one of those types of jobs, they might get it.
Yeah, that's a mighty good point. C'est la vie
The city should try all possible ways to get the money back. This will make a precedence and might deter those who are sloppy in executing contract jobs.
Due to union contracts and city regulations, they had to account for leap seconds for anyone who worked overnight. Future of UTC and the Leap Second
make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
You can be damn sure the rules from all the various contracts signed by the city had to be implemented and I would not doubt some had to be coded directly instead of relying on a table. I have seen some convoluted attendance rules when working for a rent-a-cop agency where we managed formerly city employees. For most rules you can simply make a simple table, others had so many odd conditions that it was far easier to code a specific routine.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
(Sorry for posting off-topic, but I am very interested to know which war actually ended communism. The last time I looked it was low oil prices and high international interest rates that caused the money flow to the Soviet Union to dry up, the free union Solidarnosc in Poland surviving a seven year long era of martial law and still going strong and the people in East Germany being fed up by a fossilized stalinist regime unwilling to any change fleeing the country in droves that brought down communism. I might err on that one, being there and actually living in East Germany in 1989, so what can I know?)
If your real product - the thing that gets you paid - is the "hour spent programming", you're going to maximize that, and damn the "end product". That's an afterthought. What gets you paid is not the end product, but the hours spent programming. If they're paying SAIC by the number of hours spent on the project, SAIC will maximize the number of hours spent on the project.
Well to be accurate, Nazi's, Communism and Slavery, while not prevalent are most certainly not ended.
Pretty much any investment will outperform increases in stamp prices. Forever stamps are a way for the post office to MAKE MONEY on the difference, *AND* cut costs associated with having to make the old stamps obsolete when postage rates go up.
If you can get $1 now and make it worth $1.10 later in exchange for spending $1.08 to provide a service later, you'd be an idiot not to do it.
paintball
The sig doesn't allow for much nuance. But I was generally referring to Afghanistan and the Cold War military buildup which they couldn't afford anymore. Not that they were invaded and defeated. I hope that clarifies.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
I know the one we use is a big pile of steaming garbage. It is used by a big chunk of government. I really wonder what we paid (and are likely still paying) for it?