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Drawing the Line Between Android and Linux
jfruhlinger writes "The relationship between Linux and Android is on a technical level not hard to grasp — there's a shared kernel, but the application and interface layers are quite different. But, as Brian Proffitt points out, there are differences of philosophy and of community — which hasn't stopped Adobe from touting its Android dev tools as proof of its devotion to Linux."
Have cheap ass users who don't want to pay for anything.
Try upgrading the OS on your Android phone from a Linux machine . . .
KERNEL.DLL and MS-Windows are also the same thing!
android didn't do anything good for linux, if anything it just made another incompatible implementation of the same platform. wake me up when i can run android app on my linux desktop without needing to run it in some virtual machine.
adobe i don't even wanna comment about. i avoid them more carefully than entrance to hell.
Signature Pro version 1.13.2-3 release 83.5 beta3try7 after-breakfast edition
When will I be able to run Android on my desktop?
Adobe isn't moving away from the Linux community. Rather, the company is refocusing its efforts into the emerging Linux-based space found in mobile products.
So you're going to market Dreamweaver and Illustrator/Photoshop as the latest greatest dev tool for building apps? Why do I get the feeling academia would really embrace that...
sysadmins and parents of newborns get the same amount of sleep.
"The relationship between Linux and Android is on a technical level not hard to grasp — there's a shared kernel...
Most Linux Distros -> GNU/Linux.
Linux is the kernel. Shared kernel means it's Linux.
Period. end of story.
, but the application and interface layers are quite different.
That could be said for any Linux distro.
Android is a Linux distro.
The main point of the article is about Adobe's development tools for Adobe Air. Is anybody actually using Adobe Air? The only thing I can recall having seen done using Adobe Air is help for recent versions of Adobe products, and this makes it so slow compared with any other help system that it makes a hugely negative ad for Air.
I don't understand why so many companies refuse to support linux. Yes the market is small comapred to Windows BUT its not that small and its a big niche market which lets you charge more for the software/hardware as most Linux users will undderstand that a company might have to sell at higher margings since the user base numbers are smaller. Mabe its the short term profit mantality that is causing this but wouldn't you as a company want to make customers for life?
I'm just an average Linux user who has all computers in the house running Mint but I don't get into the software and hardware setup anymore yet I'm willing to pay a little more to have the software hardware compatabiliy in Linux even at 20% of whats available on windows.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
As I understand it, AIR is pretty much the same environment as Flash, except run outside of a browser.
The kernel is not shared, it is derived and has never _really_ attempted to minimise it's changes from it's upstream so really it is an incompatible fork. So not only is Android not GNU/Linux (or X/Linux or posix/Linux or BSD/Linux) it's not even Linux.
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
So the GNU/Linux arguments start making a lot more sense now, aren't they? Cause if you just call it Linux, Android seems perfectly "Linux" to me.
All the other programs running on top comprise the OS. Why can't people get this straight? There isn't just a "Linux" community, there's a GNU community, an X community, a Debian community, a GCC community, an Android community, etc. Some parts overlap and some parts don't. But to say that all of these communities is Linux is a little misleading.
Why are you posting anonymously, Richard?
You do realize that android apps run in dalvik right?
One common pattern is a Java front-end made especially for Android that runs in Dalvik, combined with a C++ back-end shared with other platforms that runs in the NDK. In MVC terms, this corresponds to a C++ model and a Java view.
First, it's called Java and it runs android apps on linux (amoung others), just like Linux runs any other app. Android doesn't make kernel bound, machine compiled apps for the very good reason that they need as many apps to run on as many phones without separate compilers. Phones are still running completely different chipsets than PCs, or are you not aware that you can't run amd64.deb on a 32bit PC, etc. etc. If so, you aren't very educated about the issue at all.
If you want to take some code, make some native applications compile to it, I'm sure you could get some command line tools that work on both platforms, compiling separately on each. Mainstream users don't CARE if they can run it on their computers. Frankly, not many geeks care either. That's a pretty minority of a minority view. At best, people would like to run Linux desktop apps on Android, not the other way around.
And the problem isn't Android, it's XWindows. When you get XWindows and Gnome/KDE to run efficiently on ARM, you let me know and THEN we'll talk about portability. Until then, NON ISSUE QED.
And even then, you'd still need a type of virtual machine, regardless of whether the code ran or not. Apps are built for.. wait for it... phones and tablets! It's pointy-multi-touchy, not lefty-righty-clicky.
The fact is that Android is the first, and only, real main stream Linux OS that rivals every single one of its competitors. What did Android do for Linux? That's like asking what Apache has done for Linux. Without Apache, Linux wouldn't have the server market cornered. Android did for linux on phones what Apache did for linux on servers. And if you don't get that analogy, you just don't get it the topic at all.
I8-D
See subject-line. Android's proof Linux can be made insecure by what's on top of a kernel. A kernel with more unpatched security vulnerabilities in it than Windows 7 or Windows Server 2008 has by 3.5x in fact, (and that's an entire OS distro on the Microsoft stuff, not just a kernel only). Proofs are below, and in far more than comparing the Operating Systems alone.
APK
P.S.=> This data's ALL from a respected source (secunia.com) for known security vulnerabilities unpatched:
---
Vulnerability Report: Microsoft SQL Server 2008: (07/03/2011
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/21744/
Unpatched 0% (0 of 1 Secunia advisories)
Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Internet Information Services (IIS) 7.x: (07/05/2011
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/17543/
Unpatched 0% (0 of 6 Secunia advisories)
Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Exchange Server 2010: (07/05/2011
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/28234/
Unpatched 0% (0 of 1 Secunia advisories)
Vulnerability Report: Microsoft SharePoint Server 2010: (07/05/2011
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/29809/
Unpatched 0% (0 of 0 Secunia advisories)
Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Forefront Endpoint Protection 2010: (07/05/2011
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/34343/
Unpatched 0% (0 of 1 Secunia advisories)
Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Office 2010: (07/05/2011
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/30529/?task=advisories
Unpatched 0% (0 of 7 Secunia advisories)
Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Virtual PC 2007: (07/05/2011
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/14315/
Unpatched 0% (0 of 1 Secunia advisories)
Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Internet Explorer 9.x: (07/05/2011
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/34591/
Unpatched 0% (0 of 1 Secunia advisories)
Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Visual Studio 2010: (07/05/2011
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/30853/?task=advisories
Unpatched 0% (0 of 2 Secunia advisories)
Vulnerability Report: Microsoft DirectX 10.x:
(07/05/2011
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/16896/
Unpatched 0% (0 of 3 Secunia advisories)
Vulnerability Report: Microsoft .NET Framework 4.x
(07/05/2011
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/29592/
Unpatched 0% (0 of 5 Secunia advisories)
Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Silverlight 4.x: (07/05/2011
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/28947/
Unpatched 0% (0 of 0 Secunia advisories)
Vulnerability Report: Microsoft XML Core Services (MSXML) 6.x: (07/05/2011
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/6473/
Unpatched 0% (0 of 4 Secunia advisories)
Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Windows 7: (07/05/2011
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/27467/?task=advisories
Unpatched 7% (5 of 72 Secunia advisories)
---
THAT'S 3.5x LESS UNPATCHED SECURITY VULNERAB
Since Flash is supported on at least some Android devices, I have to assume that the interfaces Adobe is using are at least very similar to desktop Linux. So, will us desktop users get some bleed-over benefits from Android? Seems like little or no work for Adobe to improve ALL Linux versions of Flash. Or am I missing something here in assuming that the Android release of Flash is not second-rate?
As Linux is only the kernel and not the applications, GUI, C libraries nor any of the other things that make a complete OS then Adobe's claim is completely valid.
There is no line to draw Android uses the Linux kernel the same as Ubuntu and every other GNU/Linux distro.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
With OSS you don't pay for the software, you pay for the service.
I understand. But there are some kinds of software that don't need much service, such as video games that aren't massively multiplayer.
filled with users who demand the right and ability to hire anyone to fix defects in the software
I'm amazed and horrified you think that's a bad thing.
I think it's a good thing. I'm just describing conditions in the market where a lot of major software publishers think it's a bad thing, or at least not enough of a good thing to offset the competition that would occur.
on the desktop you're right - us linux users will look for the free, open source way every time.
This is because FOSS products end up being more capable, over time.
A lot of prominent applications that run in the Adobe runtime are games such as FarmVille. Do games also "end up being more capable, over time" if distributed as free software?
So if you get pedantic, sure, 'Linux' means/meant the kernel and only the kernel.
In *practice*, Linux has come to describe the distributions that all use glibc, xorg, kernel, gtk, qt, etc. As far as application developers go, the kernel underneath it all is interacted with rarely if at all. Adobe in *particular* has no reason to be making Linux *kernel* specific calls, so it *is* disingenuous to hold up Android work as their 'Linux' support. Adobe hasn't done anything to support the specific kernel of any other platform, so trying to say 'Linux means kernel, so Adobe is fine to say that' is just not right.
In truth, the *closest* to a mainstream 'Linux' has been WebOS, but it's fringe and skips the Xorg/GTK/QT part of the equation (though they do use SDL).
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Linux users respect the developer and their choices. This is inherent in the whole GPL thing.
I see a product and I am willing to pay a fair price for it. I won't make excuses meant to make things cheaper for me.
No. In truth it's Windows users that are the real "freetards". Their numbers just help diffuse this problem somewhat In truth, Windows users are a den of theives that have no problem pirating anything they might want or need. This is the reality that the results of the Humble bundles reflects.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Linux is a kernel. You fail to draw the distinction between GNU/Linux and Linux. This is wrong.
They're not very up to date, it's true.
So I guess we agree that non-free games rereleased as free software "end up being more capable, over time" in the sense that they end up more capable than they were when first published, but they don't end up more capable than the latest non-free games at any given moment. For example, I haven't seen a game based on ioquake3 or any other Free engine that would compete in production values with my cousin's favorite video game (Call of Duty: Black Ops).
Not surprised you related it to the russians & their famed (or perhaps, infamous) news publication "pravda", which from what I understand is used to spread various forms of UNTRUTHFUL PROPOGANDA
(On your part? Very "telling" that...)
E.G.-> For years here, since I have been coming here (late 2003/early 2004), a lot of what you hear on /. was along the lines of:
"Down with Windows & Microsoft (it's insecure), Up with Linux and Open Sores (it's secure)"...
Funny, but the #'s from a respected site on security say QUITE differently in the "latest/greatest" from either camp & it's not even comparing the FULL array for business & development that MS gives you, vs. the Linux LAMP example of the same... no, it's Linux's mainstream KERNEL ONLY... WITH FAR MORE UNPATCHED SECURITY BUGS, period.
( & MS still comes out ahead on the security front!)
It's also funny now that ANDROID has widespread HUGE usage that the "security-by-obscurity" enjoyed by the Linux camp is no longer the case, once it's being targetted/out in the open in the sights of hacker/cracker types, eh?
Microsoft's had DECADES of fighting it & experience...& that's paid off (see the #'s from SECUNIA.COM again in my last post for your reference on that account, once more)!
The "Open 'SORES'" camp by way of comparison?
Just BEGINNING the fight, & it's not going well for ANDROID!
In fact, the Open SORES "prodigal son" prototype in ANDROID, shows that once Linux is out there in the "real world" doing more than just looping constantly as a server? It's shredded wheat for security! What I *think* causes it, is what you build on top of the core/kernel, being JAVA based in fact (dalvik interpreter runs java classes).
(AND, it's really not doing well there either for security on the server-side either, because the other parts of the LAMP stack hose it, see my original post you replied to again, for your reference).
Funnier still, is that LAMP is being shown to be the favored target of phishers & spammers too! per what the register noted in my original post you replied to.
* No... All the "pravda propoganda" in the WORLD doesn't stand up to facts... period.
APK
P.S.=> All the while, Microsoft's near ENTIRE software stack for business & development has 3.5x LESS unpatched security vulnerabilities than THE LINUX MAINSTREAM 2.6x KERNEL ALONE (not an entire distro of Linux, which it's other parts, like like Dalvik & Java Classes on ANDROID show, make it insecure and have more "holes" as well - the problem there, imo @ least? See secunia.com on holes in JAVA unpatched...)
... apk
After reading the various comments from some who know more about this than I do, I think I can safely say there is not much agreement. Most arguments have valid points, but perhaps that is where we are with the GNU community, a bunch of ideas that share a similar philosophy, but no one particular direction. Much like the rest of the human race.
I know that Linux's customer base tends to focus more on the server side, with smarter operators, so a good display API is not that important. I would like to that Android for not using X Windows, and hope that the Linux world eventually moves away from that relic to something better. Wider adoption of gtk DirectFB would be nice. Since a good display API is not that important, for many Linux users, I can understand the very slow transition. Maybe, we should bring NeWS back, now that Sun's patents have expired.
Most of the users of Linux (servers, embedded devices), do not care much about a good graphical API. It is no surprise that the GUIs frequently run on Linux systems are inferior to OS X and Windows. Android could just as easily run on a BSD, or get its own operating system.
Maemo was a gtk, unix style userland. I'd rather have maemo back than Android.
Because there are Apps that would work in either environment just fine. Just because you can think of a case that won't work doesn't mean that all cases don't work.
And that doesn't mean that *your* case is the general case either. Besides, why would people want to develop apps that run on both Android and Linux on a desktop? The majority of the linux user base is either in the mobile arena (via Android) or in the server arena. The desktop arena is irrelevant and provides no business case to develop for it.
The android platform, not your PC, is the Linux desktop. Period.
See subject, & here's "ReVeRsE-PsyChoLoGy" 4U, Dr. Quack (the "SiDeWaLk-ShRiNk of /."):
"???"
Uhm... Could we get a translation of that off-topic "troll-speak" of yours, please?
* And, you're an off-topic troll - no questions asked...SEE MY SUBJECT LINE ABOVE!
---
By the way?
Do you have any of the following to your credit "SiDeWaLk-ShRiNk of /."???:
---
1.) A PHD in Psychiatry to your name/credit (that shows you are an expert in that field to make your instant/snap "prognosis-diagnosis"?
2.) A license to practice psychiatry??
3.) Years-to-Decades of professional practice hands on in said field of psychiatry on your part???
4.) A formal examination of myself in a professional setting to make your assessment of my mental state????
---
No, to all of the above? I thought as much...
* Check yourself on your own "delusions of grandeur" thinking you are able to state what you have about myself, then - because without that list above? It's libel of myself from you (small wonder you "hide" as AC on your post then, eh? NOT!)
( & of course, check my own brand of "ReVeRsE-PsyChoLoGy" I applied to you above as well - throwing your off topic trolling frothings back @ you... lol!)
APK
P.S.=> Yes, it must have just have been another off-topic done nothing of significance with his life troll spewing his off-topic b.s. again & not contributing to the ongoing conversations. Oh well - No biggie!
("ReVeRsE-PsYcHoLoGy", for trolls - Courtesy of this code by "yours truly" in less than 1 second flat):
---
#TrollTalkComReversePsychologyKiller.py (Ver #2 by APK)
def reverse(s):
try:
trollstring = ""
for apksays in s:
trollstring = apksays + trollstring
except:
print("error/abend in reverse function")
return trollstring
s = ""
print reverse(s)
try:
s = "Insert whatever 'trollspeak/trolllanguage' gibberish occurs here..."
s = reverse(s)
print(s)
except Exception as e:
print(e)
---
... apk
http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2298228&cid=36663934
APK
P.S.=> What it comes down to, is simple: Since late 2003/early 2004, all I heard around here was "propoganda" on "how secure Linux is" & "Down with Microsoft stuff, it's insecure" etc./et al!
Well... my initial post you replied to shows ANYTHING BUT THAT propoganda... & LAMP + the other parts of Linux make it worse...
As well as ANDROID's "upper crust" doing the same for its core/kernel! Get it now? Good...
... apk
That statement makes no sense. If 20% of the people want to use Android Apps on the desktop, that isn't the general case, but it would be ridiculous to say that it shouldn't be done because the other 80% don't care. Using that logic, virtually no software should be written.
Using the "Desktop Linux is too small of a market" is equally silly. There are tons of Linux desktop apps. Your argument is that none of those should exist either. It isn't even on the radar for a statement that can be taken seriously.
Finally, Android is not the Linux desktop. It may be one day, but it isn't today, and it may never be. By claiming that Android is the Linux desktop, you are acknowledging that there are Android applications that people want to run on the desktop. Thus contradicting your first statement, and showing that integrating an Android VM into the Linux desktop makes sense.
The Humble Bundle proves that people that are fans of open source will pay more for open source games than people that don't give a fuck if it's proprietary or not. It's like using the sales of a Metallica album to prove that Metallica fans are more willing to pay for music than other fans. Fans that were told "please show how much you support us" while the rest were told "please check out our games". Big surprise that a lot of Windows users did download it for nothing or next to nothing to check it our, almost like a free demo while many Linux users took it as a donation run. You can look at Steam and see lots of people spending lots of money on games every day, a single sale there often being more than any OS' users gave for the Humble Bundle. That this somehow proves this is all wrong and that it's the Linux users that are willing to pay and the Windows users that are not, well let's just say it takes a certain kind of zealotry to reach that conclusion.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
see above...duh
I could write arguments about why it's not, but...
But, you don't, because you can't. Because every argument you have against it being Linux would either be plain wrong, or could be used to say that distro x, y, or z isn't Linux. Is Gnome linux or KDE? Is .deb linux or is .rpm? Once you hit the application layer, the argument turns to dust, and that's the only argument one could really have. You mention patents. I hate to tell you this, but Linux is still Linux even if on top of it, it is running proprietary, patented, closed source, copyrighted binaries.
The fact is, Android is Linux. You can claim that it is a fork, or a massive fork, or whatever you want. If you could make the argument, you would. If you want to argue that it's not GNU, or it's not fully GPL, or something like that then you have some ground. But no argument takes away from the fact that Android is Linux anymore than arguing that LAMP isn't Linux because Apache uses it's own Apache License, and that's not "real" GPL, or some other RMS rubbish like that.
I thought this junk went away with the arguments over the LGPL.
I8-D
I agree with you.
I can imagine an Android application being the standard format for small 'widget' like applications that run on GNOME and KDE or any other desktop environment.
They would replace the proprietary plasmoids and applets of DE and become standardized. I figure it makes sense because Android supports 'fragments' which are designed to scale up to larger interface.
It also comes with a permission system for free. Many Android APIs could be mapped to a Linux compatibility layer, a daemon called. androidd. Phone call Apps would be using standard Android APIs but integrate with the VOIP software configured by the layer, your contacts with your address book, Wifi with your LAN and so on.
Slashdot needs Geekcode | Can anyone recommend any good SCIFI? My tastes: Foundation, Startide Rising, CITY, Ringworld,
They are doing everything in their power to damage Linux in the marketplace.
They are threating manufacturers actively using litigation to increase the cost of deploying Linux on a device/computer above that of Windows. This is a sleazy tactic but Microsoft is proving itself to be one of the sleaziest companies in tech right now.
The racket goes like this. Microsoft enters your store/shop/company :-O
Microsoft: "You know, Its a dangerous neighborhood around here. You need some protection."
You: "Protection? From who?"
Microsoft: "Well.. from us mainly... IF you fail to get protection from us then you will feel the full wrath of our boys in our legal department."
Microsoft: "Oh and by the way. The specifics of our protection deal is under NDA. You cannot talk about it got it?
You:
Instead of: "each copy costs $X", say, "to fund the development of that software we need $X"
The trouble is that for some kinds of software, especially software intended for home use, there's no single buyer who can front the entire $X. Say someone has posted the first complete draft of a design document for a video game and asked you to help fund the implementation of that design document. Would you donate? Or would you wait for the finished game to see if the game is worth your while first? How should the developer make the deal more attractive to potential donors?
http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2298228&cid=36664594
None of the games in any of the HIB were ever opensource. Those are, however, games that are not locked down to Windows. Per all of the statistics Linux users appreciate that more than Windows users and Mac users(that are supposed to be the wealthiest and most generous)
Where's the Unity?
The android platform, not your PC, is the Linux desktop. Period.
Guess I need to erase the last 10 or so years of my life then.
Aren't derived works like Android one of the main reasons to support open source software?
Especially 4 startups: "Free as in BEER" is what applies & keeps costs lower (especially for the "small-fry"/startups).
ALSO - LAMP security isn't ANY DIFFERENT than it is on a WAMP or IIS/SQLServer setup, in "general principles" & then even not that too!
E.G. #1 -> For instance, using BIND variables in SQL, Stored Procedures, &/or removing as much "business logic" as you can out of the "front-ends" is JUST THE SAME!
E.G. #2 -> Really, so is OS level security - rights have to be trimmed down appropriately to files/folders/disk shares as well as "general system hardening" vs. leaving services/daemons in a listening state or running them @ all period... (especially if NOT needed!) Plus, patching/updating conscientiously too, etc./et al!
APK
P.S.=> You know it, & I KNOW IT, so... don't try to IMPLY that "Open 'SORES'" stuff is "better"... it's better in terms of COSTS & that's the major reason it's so widely used (because there are FAR MORE small sites out there than large ones, & even the large ones "pinch pennies" (which is WHY they are large & have coins/dead-presidents))...
... apk
Prove this:
"Just because the Linux kernel has more unpatched bugs doesn't make Windows more secure. It just means that Microsoft hasn't yet found all the bugs in their OS." - by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 07, @06:24AM (#36680988)
You can't, & that's what I meant in my subject-line above...
---
"Linus' Law is what gives Linux one of its main strengths over Windows; "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow", and as the idiom goes, "better the devil you know"" - by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 07, @06:24AM (#36680988)
Listen - I've been coding since 1982 & 1994 professionally, & I can tell you STRAIGHT UP/RIGHT-OFF-THE-BAT, that spotting bugs in NATIVE SOURCECODE like "Open 'SORES'" gives you is easier than trying to disassemble or even fuzz closed source stuff!
(That sword of yours? CUTS BOTH WAYS!)
---
"The unpatched bugs in the Linux kernel that you refer to most likely have little or no bearing on its security." - by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 07, @06:24AM (#36680988)
LMAO - WHAT A CROCK OF SHIT! That's like saying "Yes, I know I have more doors & windows unlocked in my house than you do... but MY HOUSE IS STILL MORE SECURE!"
(Are you for real?)
---
"Your analysis is rather pointless to say the least." - by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 07, @06:24AM (#36680988)
Yours is a bunch of speculative bullshit, and non-sensical crap (to be blunt about it, see above).
APK
By hackers/crackers, period, no questions asked! Why aren't those bugs fixed then, and why are there 3.5x more of them in the LINUX KERNEL ONLY (not an entire distro like Windows 7 is) then? Hmmm??
"I agree that it is easier to find bugs in open source than trying to disassemble and debug closed source." - by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 07, @11:02PM (#36690490)
Right, which makes Linux EASIER TO FIND EXPLOITS FOR by hacker/cracker types especially!...
Microsoft has their source they can fix it that way (by HLL language step trace in a compiler) easier themselves, but they don't put out "the keys to the cracking/hacking kingdom" in HLL language (C/C++) making it easier to find exploits in it...
No, you want to hack/crack Windows?
You're stuck waiting for known exploits to show up, OR disassembly (harder by FAR than step-tracing HLL language in native code it's written in (usually C/C++ @ OS levels)), or fuzzing it.
---
"There are far less Microsoft programmers reviewing and debugging Windows source code than the multitude of open sourceprogrammers reviewing and testing Linux. Finding bugs by users is pretty similar for both I guess (submitting error reports)." - by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 07, @11:02PM (#36690490)
Ok - Then, WHY AREN'T THOSE SECURITY BUGS FIXED IN LINUX THEN if there are so many more folks looking it over? Why are there 3.5x more of them outstanding then??
(No, THAT bullshit of yours there falls apart fast in the light of that simple question!)
IF IT IS SO MUCH EASIER FINDING THE BUGS IN OPEN SORES, THEN WHY ARE THEIR MORE BUGS OUTSTANDING and UNPATCHED/UNFIXED STILL, IN THE LINUX KERNEL (kernel only mind you, not an entire distro) THEN?
I.E.-> How come they are not FIXED??
MY POINT WAS THE FOR MALWARE MAKERS/HACKERS-CRACKERS, IT IS MORE DIFFICULT TO FIND AND ABUSE BUGS IN CLOSED SOURCE THAN IT IS IN OPEN SORES!
(Period, & that is a fact... using a disassembler (kernel mode especially) is a LOT TOUGHER than poring over already known sourcecode in the HLL language it's written in!)
---
You really truly show your lack of intelligence on this one... the source for my list of UNPATCHED SECURITY VULNERABILITIES WAS SECUNIA.COM - they only display security bugs, fool:
"Unpatched bugs don't necessarily make an operating system less secure. ". - by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 07, @11:02PM (#36690490)
Again - ARE YOU FOR REAL? That's like saying "My house has more doors & windows unlocked than yours does, but my house is more secure!"
(LMAO - "Yea, right" (sarcasm)).
---
"There are all sorts of bugs (functionality, display, etc). If you were really a professional programmer you would know this. "Bug" doesn't automatically imply "vulnerability"". - by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 07, @11:02PM (#36690490)
LMAO - Oh, this "takes the cake":
The source for my bugs list for both Windows (and the rest of what MS offers for business & development too, NOT JUST A KERNEL as was the case in Linux showing more unpatched security vulnerabilities alone) and Linux was SECUNIA.COM!
And, guess what?
SECUNIA.COM only specializes in showing UNPATCHED SECURITY VULNERABLITIES, no other kinds!
U FAIL, hugely...
Additionally?
Face it - Linux has 3.5x more UNPATCHED SECURITY VULNERABILITIES in its kernel alone, than does nearly ALL of what MS gives you for business & development... period!
Despite all those "Open 'SORES'" eyes poring over its wide open exposed sourcecode... & All those "open SORES eyes" can't seem to fix the 3.5x more security vulns in the Linux kernel either, even when it's easier to do in the HLL language(s) it's written in also...
Funny that, eh?
APK
P.S.=> Adh
Open SORES = Easier 2 find bugs 2 exploit by hacker/cracker types than it is by fuzzing, or disassembly on closed source stuff!
By far... just a fact!
"I know that open source is better, but that is only a matter of opinion (obviously)." - by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 07, @11:11PM (#36690536)
LOL, "better" alright - Better for finding bugs to exploit in it, since it's written in a HLL (high level language) which is easier to take & step-trace thru using a compiler than it is to use a debugger (especially kernel level type) on CLOSED SOURCE CODE or, fuzzing it...
* NO questions asked - FACT!
APK
P.S=> And again - IF THE "BEST YOU'VE GOT" is the "std. last resort of trolls" in adhominem attacks &/or writing style critiques? You're hurting:
"I don't know whether English is your second language or you are just a dumb shit, but you aren't making any sense." - by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 07, @11:11PM (#36690536)
LMAO - I made SO much sense with what I just stated, and what I said before that has you "dancing in response" like a puppet on my string, that you are stuck with "the last resort of trolls" - the adhominem attack and "writing style critique": Perhaps you ought to look into "hooked on phonics" for your reading problems, eh?
ROTFLMAO!
... apk
See subject-line in regards to this from you, your "foundation" of your so-called "argument" now:
"You're convinced that there are more exploits in Linux that Windows obviously. So what exploits are you referring to that have been apparently widely taken advantage of by hackers?" - by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 08, @06:52PM (#36700664)
ANDROID, a Linux variant, is PROOF POSITIVE that once Linux starts being used more/has a large marketshare? It can be exploited... period!
* It also shows that the ONLY thing that protected Linux desktop PC users is "Security-By-Obscurity" in that it's less used!
APK
P.S.=> Because malware makers in general? They are JUST LIKE PICKPOCKETS!
I.E./E.G. -> They both don't operate on "targets/crowds of 1" from an attack codebase: They go after the MASS MARKET (which for decades has been Windows of course, which still holds 94% of the overall Desktop PC, thru Workstation clients in LAN/WAN usage, to Servers, worldwide)...
Malware makers in general ARE just like pickpockets operate in crowded city streets, or public throughfares like malls &/or train-bus stations for example...
They follow the money, & "easy meat" by default + the crowd to have more attack surface area from a single codebase for attack... less effort that way!
... apk
Vs. this statement from you:
"Why would Google trust it? Why would every router be relying on it (especially since NAT is the last line of defence for every network)?" - by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 08, @06:52PM (#36700664)
CO$T$, "Free as in Beer" is tough to beat vs. wares that cost...
Plus, if the RIGHT PERSON'S @ "the Linux helm/wheel" driving it (networkers mainly or desktop users)? It can be security-hardened... e
Epecially once the NSA bolted on SeLinux to it (didn't come that way & it added MAC (analog to Windows' ACL's, which had that forever & was "Orange Book Certified" C2 level, since, iirc, NT 3.51 in fact - in part, because of that))
HOWEVER - by default?
SeLinux is NOT as "tightened" as it can be (nor is Windows, hence why I did this guide for that decades ago & a more recent one -> http://www.bing.com/search?q=%22HOW+TO+SECURE+Windows+2000%2FXP%22&go=&form=QBRE )
* YOU seem to think "I hate Linux"... guess what? I don't & use it here myself (KUbuntu 10.10), but I know that the Linux world is JUST starting to see "what's up" en masse in Android, & if there ever IS a "year of Linux on the desktop"?
It's going to be taken advantage of, just like Windows has for decades (but is finally shoring up well vs. it after much experience that Linuxdom doesn't really HAVE yet).
Call it a prediction, that is, IF Linux ever goes largescale usage into the millions (like ANDROID shows us happened to it).
APK
P.S.=> Also, in case you don't KNOW it? Routers can be "flash attacked", just like PC's can be with flashable proms/eeproms, & Routers have been known to be hit by UPnP features in them, remotely, too... & they too can be manufactured FOR LESS, by using a FREE OS...
... apk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzz_testing
"Fuzzing" won't protect you for long." - by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 08, @06:52PM (#36700664)
It is a method for finding "bugs" in applications ... NOT a protection method!
And, you said this? LMAO:
"as you seem to be doing a pretty good job of making yourself look stupid." - by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 08, @06:52PM (#36700664)
Who's stupid now? LOL, not I! See above on "fuzzing" you fool!
---
"Your focus on "security by obscurity" highlights that you may also be guilty of it." - by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 08, @06:52PM (#36700664)
LMAO - no, definitely NOT on that account per THAT accusation from yourself (along with your numerous troll-like attacks on my writing etc. while you post as TRULY AC):
I "preach" layered security, & have since 1997-1998 with the most viewed, highly rated guide online for Windows security there really is which came from the fact I also created the 1st guide for securing Windows, highly rated @ NEOWIN (as far back as 1998-2001) here:
http://www.neowin.net/news/apk-a-to-z-internet-speedup--security-text
AND, more currently, the MOST viewed & highly rated one there is for years now since 2008 online:
http://www.bing.com/search?q=%22HOW+TO+SECURE+Windows+2000%2FXP%22&go=&form=QBRE
Which has well over 500,000++ views online (actually MORE, but 1 site with 75,000 views of it went offline/out-of-business) & it's been made either:
---
1.) An Essential Guide
2.) 5-5 star rated
3.) A "sticky-pinned" thread
4.) Most viewed in the category it's in (usually security)
5.) Got me PAID by winning a contest @ PCPitStop (quite unexpectedly - I was only posting it for the good of all, & yes, "the Lord works in mysterious ways", it even got me PAID -> http://techtalk.pcpitstop.com/2007/09/04/pc-pitstop-winners/ (see January 2008))
---
Across 15-20 or so sites I posted it on back in 2008... have YOU done better, troll?
---
SOME QUOTED TESTIMONIALS TO THE EFFECTIVENESS OF SAID LAYERED SECURITY GUIDE I AUTHORED:
http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=672ebdf47af75a0c5b0d9e7278be305f&t=28430&page=2
"I recently, months ago when you finally got this guide done, had authorization to try this on simple work station for kids. My client, who paid me an ungodly amount of money to do this, has been PROBLEM FREE FOR MONTHS! I haven't even had a follow up call which is unusual." - THRONKA, user of my guide @ XTremePcCentral
AND
"APK, thanks for such a great guide. This would, and should, be an inspiration to such security measures. Also, the pc that has "tweaks": IS STILL GOING! NO PROBLEMS!" - THRONKA, user of my guide @ XTremePcCentral
AND
http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=672ebdf47af75a0c5b0d9e7278be305f&t=28430&page=3
"Its 2009 - still trouble free! I was told last week by a co worker who does active directory administration, and he said I was doing overkill. I told him yes, but I just eliminated the half life in windows that you usually get. He said good point. So from 2008 till 2009. No speed decreases, its been to a lan party, mov
".xuniL htiw secnahc ym ekat ll'I tub ecneffo oN ?norom a hcus uoy era yhw oS .ytiruces swodniW htiw od ot tol a enod yltnerappa evah uoy woW" - by Anonymous Coward an off-topic "ne'er-do-well" troll on Friday July 08, @11:24PM (#36702190)
"???"
Uhm... Could we get a translation of that off-topic "troll-speak" of yours, please?
* And, you're a troll, resorting to ad hominem attacks as your "last resort" - no questions asked...SEE MY SUBJECT LINE ABOVE & please - LEARN TO WRITE PROPERLY!!!
(Better luck next time, because I took every "so-called point" you TRIED to make & tossed it into the bin, along with yourself (now posting as ac... lol!)).
APK
P.S.=> Yes, it must have just have been another off-topic done nothing of significance with his life troll spewing his off-topic b.s. again & not contributing to the ongoing conversations. Oh well - No biggie!
("ReVeRsE-PsYcHoLoGy", for trolls - Courtesy of this code by "yours truly" in less than 1 second flat):
---
#TrollTalkComReversePsychologyKiller.py (Ver #2 by APK)
def reverse(s):
try:
trollstring = ""
for apksays in s:
trollstring = apksays + trollstring
except:
print("error/abend in reverse function")
return trollstring
s = ""
print reverse(s)
try:
s = "Insert whatever 'trollspeak/trolllanguage' gibberish occurs here..."
s = reverse(s)
print(s)
except Exception as e:
print(e)
---
... apk
".loohcshgih morf dik a ekil gnipyt er'uoY ?uoy era dlo woH .neewtebni tihsllub eht lla tuohtiw secnetnes lluf desu uoy fi elbadaer erom hcum eb dluow stsop ruoY - by Anonymous Coward an off-topic adhominem attack + writing style critique utilizing "ne-er-do-well" troll on Friday July 08, @10:38PM (#36701946)
"???"
Uhm... Could we get a translation of that off-topic "troll-speak" of yours, please?
* And, you're an off-topic troll - no questions asked...SEE MY SUBJECT LINE ABOVE!
APK
P.S.=> Yes, it must have just have been another off-topic done nothing of significance with his life troll spewing his off-topic b.s. again & not contributing to the ongoing conversations. Oh well - No biggie!
("ReVeRsE-PsYcHoLoGy", for trolls - Courtesy of this code by "yours truly" in less than 1 second flat):
---
#TrollTalkComReversePsychologyKiller.py (Ver #2 by APK)
def reverse(s):
try:
trollstring = ""
for apksays in s:
trollstring = apksays + trollstring
except:
print("error/abend in reverse function")
return trollstring
s = ""
print reverse(s)
try:
s = "Insert whatever 'trollspeak/trolllanguage' gibberish occurs here..."
s = reverse(s)
print(s)
except Exception as e:
print(e)
---
... apk
1st of all, it "takes one to know one", & you definitely are NOT in "my league" on this account:
"You definitely aren't a professional programmer " - by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 08, @10:38PM (#36701946)
Sure, ok - tell you what: The day you can show you have done MORE than I have in the art & science of computing, & before I have, to better acclaim (from this only PARTIAL list of what I could actually put out from some of my "favs")? Is the day you can talk:
"My Name is Ozymandias: King of Kings - Look upon my works, ye mighty, & DESPAIR..."
----
Windows NT Magazine (now Windows IT Pro) April 1997 "BACK OFFICE PERFORMANCE" issue, page 61
(&, for work done for EEC Systems/SuperSpeed.com on PAID CONTRACT (writing portions of their SuperCache program increasing its performance by up to 40% via my work) albeit, for their SuperDisk & HOW TO APPLY IT, took them to a finalist position @ MS Tech Ed, two years in a row 2000-2002, in its HARDEST CATEGORY: SQLServer Performance Enhancement).
WINDOWS MAGAZINE, 1997, "Top Freeware & Shareware of the Year" issue page 210, #1/first entry in fact (my work is there)
PC-WELT FEB 1998 - page 84, again, my work is featured there
WINDOWS MAGAZINE, WINTER 1998 - page 92, insert section, MUST HAVE WARES, my work is again, there
PC-WELT FEB 1999 - page 83, again, my work is featured there
CHIP Magazine 7/99 - page 100, my work is there
GERMAN PC BOOK, Data Becker publisher "PC Aufrusten und Repairen" 2000, where my work is contained in it
HOT SHAREWARE Numero 46 issue, pg. 54 (PC ware mag from Spain), 2001 my work is there, first one featured, yet again!
Also, a British PC Mag in 2002 for many utilities I wrote, saw it @ BORDERS BOOKS but didn't buy it... by that point, I had moved onto other areas in this field besides coding only...
Being paid for an article that made me money over @ PCPitstop in 2008 for writing up a guide that has people showing NO VIRUSES/SPYWARES & other screwups, via following its point, such as THRONKA sees here -> http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=ee926d913b81bf6d63c3c7372fd2a24c&t=28430&page=3
It's also been myself helping out the folks at the UltraDefrag64 project (a 64-bit defragger for Windows), in showing them code for how to do Process Priority Control @ the GUI usermode/ring 3/rpl 3 level in their program (good one too), & being credited for it by their lead dev & his team... see here -> http://ultradefrag.sourceforge.net/handbook/Credits.html or here http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2993462&group_id=199532&atid=969873
AND lastly: http://g-off.net/software/a-python-repeatable-threadingtimer-class [g-off.net] where I got other programmer's work WORKING RIGHT (in PyThon no less, which I just started learning only 2 week ago no less) by showing them how to use a "Dummy Proxy Function" as I call it, to make a RepeatTimer class (Thread sub-class really) to take PARAMETERIZED FUNCTIONS, ala:
def apkthreadlaunch():
getnortonsafeweb(sAPKFileName = "APK_1_NortonSafeWeb360Extracted.txt".rstrip())
a = RepeatTimer(900, apkthreadlaunch) # 900 is 15 minutes... apk
Where it was NOT working for many folks there, before (submitted to the maker of the RepeatTimer class no less, & yes, it WORKS!)
----
Wha
"you win" - by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 08, @10:38PM (#36701946)
Yes, see subject-line above: I know... I always win vs. off-topic adhominem attack using trolls that have "delusions of grandeur" in tossing about "writing style critiques" when they themselves can't write properly:
Again - Yes, I know... facts always do that for me!
(AND, especially vs. trolls that use off topic b.s., adhominem attacks, & "the last resort of trolls", in writing style critique (minus a PHD in English on their parts no less proving they're "expert" & fit to criticize others, themselves))
---
"You seem at most to be one of those amateur hobbyists that throw together the poorly written crapware that litters the web." - by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 08, @10:38PM (#36701946)
Well, we're waiting to see you have done more & better than I have in the link/url below!
http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2298228&cid=36703546
(AND, earlier too, & over as long a period + as many times as I have in respected written publications in the art & science of computing, along with trade show showings that were great, plus, books, magazines, newspapers, & more from a partial only list of my favs over time till recently there in that link above)
---
"It doesn't bother me that you like Windows and hate Linux." - by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 08, @10:38PM (#36701946)
I don't hate Linux - heck, I use it MYSELF (KUbuntu 10.10) but I know it's still not Windows, not quite yet in a lot of ways is all... & security-wise, ANDROID's showing you all how much b.s. 'FUD' has gotten spread around /. over time of "Microsoft Windows sucks for security - Open 'SORES' Linux is secure and better'... yea, "right" (not).
---
"I like to debate things, but arguing with irrational children quickly becomes a bore. If I want to argue with children, I'll argue with my 2 year old." - by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 08, @10:38PM (#36701946)
He'll probably win vs. you too, lol...
---
"If all you care about is defeating me, then you win, whatever that means, and your prize is... to continue rolling in your ignorant immature filth! Good for you." - by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 08, @10:38PM (#36701946)
Yes, I win... & speak for yourself - you're stuck with resorting to the "last resort of defeated trolls", in using ad hominem attacks, writing style critiques (with no PHD in English to YOUR NAME/CREDIT mind you proving you're an expert in it yourself)...
APK
P.S.=> Don't you mean "VERY GOOD FOR YOU"? LMAO... apk