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Congressmen Pushing To Reopen Yucca Mountain

Bob the Super Hamste writes "CNN is reporting that a group of congressmen backed by the nuclear industry are pushing to reopen the Yucca Mountain nuclear waste site. The site has sat closed and uncompleted since the Obama administration scrapped the project. The article goes into the pros and cons of the Yucca Mountain site for storage and also brings up some interesting political issues involved in continuing development. It's also worth noting that there's been a fee on electric bills since 1983 for the building of the site."

37 of 212 comments (clear)

  1. About time by wbean · · Score: 5, Insightful

    About time. We are fussing about whether this will be safe after 10,000 years and meanwhile we store the waste in overcrowded pools spread around the country and continue to burn coal, which is an environmental disaster all by itself, never mind what it does to the climate.

    1. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      And, as a bonus, if they start reprocessing the waste (and overturn Carter's executive order which outlawed the process), there will be enough storage in Yucca Mountain to store all the waste that will ever be made, until it's cooled, since most of the waste, by volume and mass, is just more fuel, and what IS really waste is hot enough to burn itself out on the scale of human life spans...

    2. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      lol you are making the mistake of thinking the argument is about common sense. Its about politics.

    3. Re:About time by Kamiza+Ikioi · · Score: 2, Informative

      Shhhh! You'll wake the tree huggers who only want to use biodegradable elf farts powering windmills in Denmark! Just imagine if a nuclear plant melts down! The entire world's salt supply will kill us all!.

      As I've always said, solar and wind are great, where its sunny and windy. We need to stop the fantasy science and at LEAST use today's available science to solve today's problems. You wanna develop space solar panels and beam down power? Fine, we'll close the nuclear plants AFTER you get it working.

      --
      I8-D
    4. Re:About time by bosef1 · · Score: 2

      It looks like the Ford and Carter bans on nuclear waste reprocessing were overturned by Reagan. The Wikipedia page on nuclear reprocessing has an overview of the current situation, and a link to a more in-depth summary of US reprocessing policy here (pdf).

      Based on a quick read, it looks like one of the big hold-ups is that while the US isn't banning fuel reprocessing, it isn't subsidising it either; but that's just from a quick read and I encourage you to do your own analysis.

      Further, reading over the Wikipedia page, it looks like there have been some substantial improvements in the reprocessing chemistry that go a long way to mitigating the proliferation risks that were a concern in the 1970's.

    5. Re:About time by atriusofbricia · · Score: 2, Insightful

      lol you are making the mistake of thinking the argument is about common sense. Its about politics.

      It's far worse than that. It's about irrational fear on one hand and unknowledgeable hardcore anti-nuclear power fanatics on the other. How many times have we heard the anti-nuclear power crowd go on and on about there's no where to store the waste, and then when you bring up Yucca they switch to "well no you have to transport it!". What they really want to say is "Ban all nuclear power! Power everything with rainbow farts from Unicorns!"

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    6. Re:About time by cdrguru · · Score: 3, Informative

      I believe regardless of the science and actual process for reprocessing it is simply an equivalence in many politician's minds of reprocessing == proliferation. I believe the truth is that you get plutonium out as a "waste product" from straight fuel rod reprocessing but with some new formulations of fuel rods you may end up putting the plutonium back in.

      My understanding of fuel reprocessing today is that it is somewhere around 97% of a fuel rod is available for using in a new fuel rod. In other words, only 3% of the mass of a fuel rod is truely "waste" and ends up needing to be buried somewhere for a long time.

      Of course it is idiotic to be storing fuel rods which require cooling and isolation when they could be reprocessed with 97% of them being reused. But the nuclear politics are filled with idiocy.

    7. Re:About time by atriusofbricia · · Score: 2

      It's far worse than that. It's about irrational fear on one hand and unknowledgeable hardcore anti-nuclear power fanatics on the other.

      Fair and balanced, heh?

      It is between irresponsible nuclear energy fanbois on one hand and political and financial/technical reality on the other hand. Nuclear is not going anywhere, and it's time for the nuclear energy advocates to stop pretending. Things don't get anymore true because you repeat them over and over. When you weight the probability of something going wrong with the consequences it comes out that nuclear is not for most places on this planet.

      It is simply not true that coal (for example) is worse than nuclear. It might be so on a an average day, but if shit hits the fan, nuclear can recover all the distance in a single day, and then make some the next day. And given the corruption and incompetence of the nuclear industry, we'll see another blow to its image within a decade. I'd bet it will be a Thorium reactor by the chinese, who are going to fuck up as surely as the sun gets up tomorrow.

      Go ahead, claim it's impossible, so you are on the record when it does.

      "Ban all nuclear power! Power everything with rainbow farts from Unicorns!"

      How's that called. Nuclear strawman? Hahaha.

      You want me to claim that there will never be another nuclear accident? You're right, that would be silly. It will likely happen again. But here's the thing. In the 60 odd years since the first commercial nuclear power plant came online we've had what, three accidents of note in commercial plants? One of which has never been proven to have harmed a single person and the last of which the consequences are admittedly unknown. What did it take to get that final incident? Just a 9.0 earthquake and a 43 foot tsunami. But yeah, totally unsafe and blow up all the time. Even the POS of Chernobyl was running fine until they started to muck about with it.

      During those same 60 odd years, how many people were killed and injured in coal mining operations? A back of the napkin figure would be at least 15,000 dead. How many were directly killed by any nuclear disaster?

      How many were injured by coal pollution? How much soot and related by products were released? You can't say that coal isn't worse than nuclear without taking into consideration the entire picture. Production to consumption. I tried to find evidence of uranium mine disasters or widescale environmental damage from uranium mines and was unable to find them. That isn't to say it is perfect and without fault, but it sure as hell didn't kill as many people.

      All power production technologies currently known by mankind create pollution either at the point of production or construction. All power production technologies have risks. No exceptions.

      You seem to be anti-nuclear. Fine. What's the alternative? I don't have a workable one and that is the only reason I would put it forth. Research should continue on alternatives, but for now everything else is either worse on some level or a pipe dream. If you say that you're totally against nuclear power then you're saying that you're okay with all the coal miners killed and the pollution released by that. You can't have it both ways.

      You're right about one thing, politics is one of the primary limiting factors on safe nuclear power. People always have Chernobyl in mind when you talk nukes. Never mind that the risk of a Chernobyl style disaster is practically zero in a modernish non-Soviet junk reactor. Even Fukishima didn't just pop its top one day, did it? While keeping in mind that the risk of a serious disaster is extremely low, should we not at the very least replace the current reactors with even safer ones? Or would you rather we just shut them all off and blast out even more coal and gas pollution and let even more miners die. Would that be cool?

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

  2. It needs to be reopened, and spent fuel moved in. by Animats · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not perfect, but dry cask storage in Yucca Mountain is way better than rods in spent fuel pools in power plants.

    There's been worry about shipping spent fuel rods around, but the casks are very tough (they will survive being hit by a locomotive), and the worst cases are far, far less dangerous than a failed spent fuel pool at a power plant, as we now know.

  3. Re:The American public has been fooled.. by G-forze · · Score: 2

    Citation needed

    --
    "There's someone in my head but it's not me." - Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon
  4. Thorium Reactors by RudyHartmann · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You can burn the transuranics in a Thorium reactor and extract residual energy from them. Then the hazardous waste will be negligible by comparison. Google LFTR.

    --
    Oh, yeah! Wise guy, huh? Woob woob woob woob! Nyuk! Nyuk!
    1. Re:Thorium Reactors by Nadaka · · Score: 2

      Because the same reactor can (and does) produce plutonium as an intermediary fuel. Some of those reactors can be designed to allow the plutonium to be harvested.

    2. Re:Thorium Reactors by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 2

      Burning waste products up requires reprocessing. Carter banned reprocessing unilaterally due to proliferation concerns and a false assumption that reprocessing = PUREX = proliferation - but there are fuel cycles that use reprocessing other than PUREX.

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      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    3. Re:Thorium Reactors by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 2

      Note: Thorium fuel cycle has nothing to do with burning our existing waste. Yes, it does happen to support a low-waste low-proliferation-risk cycle, but there are actually low-proliferation-risk cycles such as that used by the IFR that work with our existing waste regardless of thorium use as fuel.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    4. Re:Thorium Reactors by bluemonq · · Score: 5, Informative

      Fun fact: the ban on reprocessing was lifted by Reagan. The government just isn't subsiziding it.

    5. Re:Thorium Reactors by camperdave · · Score: 2

      So? All it would take is for UN inspectors to come in randomly during the design, build, and operational phases to make sure that doesn't happen.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    6. Re:Thorium Reactors by RudyHartmann · · Score: 2

      Uranium based reactors do create Plutonium. But in a Thorium based reactor for all practical purposes you do not. The reason why Uranium was preferred over Thorium for energy production is only BECAUSE of nuclear weapons. You cannot make practical weapons using a Thorium reactor. The chemical separation of actinides from spent fuel could also be used in a Thorium to create more energy from it. Elaborate and expensive ionic separation on not required. The basic idea a fusion is seductive, but so far it has only been a government make work project. Thorium reactors have actually been built and are functioning. Of course the most advanced to of a Thorium reactor would be e liquid fluoride thorium reactor (LFTR). The only reason these have not been built in mass quantities is engineering details. Fusion reactors are still pie-in-the-sky.

      --
      Oh, yeah! Wise guy, huh? Woob woob woob woob! Nyuk! Nyuk!
    7. Re:Thorium Reactors by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Informative
      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  5. Re:Wait, this means Obama actually cut spending? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Hey, turn off Fox News and open the window up to let the crack fumes out.

  6. Re:It needs to be reopened, and spent fuel moved i by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

    US rail needs upgraded anyway. Sound like an opportunity to improve our infrastructure and provide jobs, a great thing to do during a recession.

  7. Re:The American public has been fooled.. by couchslug · · Score: 2

    We are coming for you and those like you. Those we don't keep around to be ridiculed will disappear.

    You don't know when, you don't know where.

    Sleep well.

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  8. Re:question about fusion energy by alexander_686 · · Score: 2

    Fusion Engery: No

    Fairy Dust: Yes.
          There are ways to reduce the amount of high level waste, but as people mentioned they fall afoul of the nuclear proliferation treaties.
          There have been "table top" demonstrations of converting low level waste into safe stuff. Basically, you isolate the radioactive atoms and bombard them with neutrons until they fall apart into something safer. You don’t need nanotechnology to make this work – but close.

  9. THE US LACKS LONG TERM PLANNING by arcite · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is the problem with the US IMO. They lack any long term planning. The political party in power at any given time is only obsessed and focused with getting themselves reelected in four years. Thus, planning is limited to FOUR YEARS. How can one run the last remaining superpower on a four year shedule? It takes 10 years to build a nuclear power plant. How long does it take to build other MEGA infrastructure projects? There are so many unemployed out there, the US should be doing like China and upgrading its ancient infrastructure and laying the groundwork for a high-tech, energy efficient 21st century. I would suggest to raise taxes, but so far that has only made banksters on wallstreet wealthier with zero economic impact. Where is the leadership?

  10. It really is a pretty safe facility by HangingChad · · Score: 4, Informative

    I remember working on some of the Yucca Mountain studies years ago and there really isn't a better place you could store nuclear waste. It's very stable geologically, and the storage medium leeching was practically non-existent, even if you stored the blocks under water.

    Most of the objections are NIMBY related and don't represent any realistic threat.

    I can promise you where nuclear waste is being stored now, where ever that is, is a lot less safe than it would be at Yucca Mountain.

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    1. Re:It really is a pretty safe facility by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I can promise you where nuclear waste is being stored now, where ever that is, is a lot less safe than it would be at Yucca Mountain.

      But that's exactly why the anti-nuclear nutters oppose it; they love nuclear accidents because it helps them campaign to end nuclear power... the last things they want are safe reactors and safe waste disposal.

    2. Re:It really is a pretty safe facility by sl3xd · · Score: 2

      Hate to tell you this, but the problem isn't really NIMBY - it's about several states being forced into something that's very much against their interests, and in a way that can potentially depopulate whole cities. The waste storage itself isn't the largest problem; the site can be secured relatively easily, and is safer than in the spent fuel pools at our nation's nuclear plants.

      The problem lies outside Yucca Mountain: It's partly in safety, and mostly in politics.

      The issue is that large, populous states, nearly all of which are east of the Mississippi river, are forcing Nevada to take the waste. With only three in the house and two senators to oppose, Nevada is largely powerless to stop it. The choice of Yucca mountain is in large part because the populous states with nuclear plants outvote Nevada by a factor approaching 100. Nevada doesn't even have a nuclear plant.

      The issue is about state soverignty and why they should be involuntarily turned into a garbage dump for the East Coast. - Nevada (and the transit states of New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, and Utah) have no nuclear plants. Why should they pay nearly all of the penalties, and enjoy none of the benefits?

      There has been more than enough suffering from broken nuclear energy promises in these states. For the residents affected, nuclear fallout isn't a distant fear, or a paranoid fantasy - it is a hard reality. It's not that it might happen, but that it already has, and it was forced upon them involuntarily.
      - These states have already suffered the terrible cost (in lives) from radioactive fallout from the nuclear tests of the cold war, with tens of thousands dead, and many times more fighting thyroid cancer. (American film icons John Wayne and Susan Hayward died from cancer induced from the fallout of these tests).
      - The amount of radiation exposure in these states was over 5.5 exabecquerels - levels that dwarf that of Chernobyl and Fukushima combined.
      - Why should these states (again) pay the penalty for nuclear energy - espescially when they receive no benefit from it?
      - Why should these states believe yet another "promise" of safety from an industry (and government) that's proven highly effective at covering up problems and killing their family members?

      We're talking about the same government who decided it was a good idea to store and dispose of the nation's (extensive) supply of nerve gas only a few miles away from a population center of two million, and the same industry that has been found covering up massive problems in order to extend the lives of reactors well beyond their design and safety limits.

      The waste will travel through New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, and Nevada - exposing all of those states to the bulk of what is by far the most dangerous part of the whole project - transit of the waste. Estimates put 70% of the waste traveling through the Salt Lake Valley - population of ~2 million or so. It's not possible to secure the transit routes - there are just too many miles, too many people. The dry casks are tough, but they're not perfect. It's impossible to secure an entire city, or even the tracks along the route. I don't want to bring up "terrorism" here, but it doesn't even take a release of material - just an incident terrorists can claim they caused - to cause a lot of recrimination and panic.

      Governers can and have called out the national guard (ie. state-controlled military) to prevent waste from entering the state. Tanks, helicopters, and a company of heavily armed, and highly motivated national guardsman is a pretty big deterrent to a mere shipping company. It inevitably ends up as a standoff where the Federal Government backs down, because frankly, how good does it look to the rest of the World if the US uses its military on one of its own states for not allowing themselves to be the waste dump of the most dangerous stuff on Earth - espescially when the waste comes from thousands of miles

      --
      -- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
    3. Re:It really is a pretty safe facility by rastoboy29 · · Score: 2

      To be fair, you're still assuming that a "safe" nuclear power plant is possible.

      I'm inclined to agree, but the evidence suggests otherwise.

    4. Re:It really is a pretty safe facility by imunfair · · Score: 2

      It isn't NIMBY, yet the things you named are all NIMBY fears for Nevada. From the perspective of someone that doesn't live in any of the prospective states I think Nevada is a much better choice. We've already contaminated the underground area near there with no wide-scale radiation issues, so even with leaks it seems promising that most of the country would not be affected.

      Kamps said better sites for a repository include deep granite formations in places like New Hampshire, Wisconsin or Minnesota

      So instead of sticking it in a low population desert we should stick it in a hole near the source of one of our biggest rivers (one that just happens to flood a lot of land on a regular basis too...), or within spitting distance of the gulf stream?

      Additionally you already pointed out the population argument - Nevada is the 16th least populated state - 5x less people than Wisconsin. A lot of the other least populated states are either northerly (head of rivers), or small east coast states. The argument that they can refuse nuclear waste since they don't have nuclear power is silly when it's cheaper and cleaner for Nevada to build huge solar farms in the barren Mojave desert. The reason they don't need nuclear power is the same reason everyone else wants to store nuclear waste there - it's low population and low risk compared to the rest of the country in the case of a catastrophe.

      I'm not saying the nuclear site would be unsafe, but when you're planning for the worst and looking at leaks - why would you want any of those other sites over Nevada? A vast, largely unpopulated desert that is already partially irradiated is prime real estate for this type of thing, especially when billions of dollars have already been spent in Nevada to partially build the facility.

      Regarding the reprocessing - if we ever did that on a large scale I expect the facility would be built near Yucca Mountain. The only thing they'd be shipping out would be new, usable fuel rods. It would be silly to build it far away and pay the expense to ship everything there just to reprocess it - you'd need hefty subsidies to make that possible - and I doubt nuclear reprocessing facilities are the type of project most states would heavily subsidize.

  11. Re:It needs to be reopened, and spent fuel moved i by GooberToo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is yet another case of anti-nukers actually making the world a more dangerous and costly place. If the anti-nukers would just shut the fuck up and let intelligent people actually move forward, things would be way better all the way around. As is, everything is more dangerous and far, far, far more expensive than would otherwise be required if anti-nukers would simply shut the fuck up.

  12. Re:It needs to be reopened, and spent fuel moved i by Mashiki · · Score: 2

    Well the US is one of the few countries in the world that doesn't reprocess it's nuclear waste. In fact you guys ship your plutonium to Canada so we can make nuclear fuel for reactors. Seriously? Time to kick environmentalists in the face when they fuck everything up for everyone else based on fear mongering.

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    Om, nomnomnom...
  13. Why build one when you can build two at 3 times by Marrow · · Score: 2

    the price? I suspect the biggest problem with Yucca is that we are ignoring the lost revenue of building another one. And the guys in charge would really love to be able to steer another bazillion dollars to their favorite contractors. Very generous contractors.

  14. Side Benefit by SuperKendall · · Score: 2

    Yes, in our country our passenger infrastructure is heavily dependent on our freight infrastructure, which is WHY our passenger infrastructure is so bad.

    WIth the average weight of Americans increasing, it could be very handy that passenger rail makes use of the freight lines.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  15. Re:There are NO safe reactors. NONE by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

    I forget - remind me how many people Fukushima has killed so far?

    --

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  16. NIMBY by waddgodd · · Score: 2

    It's going nowhere, Reid is still Majority Leader, it's in his state, and he's still against it. Lotta political smoke, not much fire.

    --
    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you
  17. Nevada... by batrick · · Score: 2

    Everyone here is neglecting one of the #1 reasons this project was scrapped. Nevada is being dumped with the nuclear waste of all the other states. Nevada doesn't even have a nuclear power plant. United States against One.

  18. good luck getting this by harry reid by hansoloaf · · Score: 2

    ya know the senate majority leader who happens to be from nevada.

  19. Only one country + learn about it by dbIII · · Score: 2

    other countries have been reprocessing

    Last time I looked there was only one France and they've had a lot of trouble with reprocessing and haven't done any for a couple of years.
    Also for some reason a lot of people have it backwards. The one and only purpose of reprocessing is to extract usable material from spent fuel rods. It is NOT a way to reduce nuclear waste, in fact it actually generates a lot of low level waste due to contamination. The fuel rods are still very intense neutron sources after all so many things that come close to them also become radioactive. Very expensive PR has been applied to make people think like idiots on this issue so don't feel bad that you've been made to think it's magic and not a real thing with real costs inseperable from the benefits.
    You still need somewhere to store radioactive waste with or without reprocessing. Yukka mountain is apparently a bit too wet, and if that really is the case it's just a matter of finding somewhere better.