ISP Refuses To Block the Pirate Bay

asto21 writes "Previously, representatives from the Finnish music industry filed a lawsuit against Elisa, one of the country's largest ISPs, demanding that it should block subscriber access to The Pirate Bay. In a reply filed at the district court, Elisa has refused to comply, describing the blocking demands as unreasonable."

Comments

reasonable

[perryizgr8]

seems quite reasonable.

Re:reasonable

[mustPushCart]

Have to agree,
If it were a torrent website (just a repository of .torrent files) it would be unreasonable. But here you have a website which states its meant for piracy, really whats their defense?

Re:reasonable

[PhilHibbs]

"Burger King, you must not serve those customers because they are villains. Macdonalds, you are free to continue taking their custom."

Re:reasonable

[mmcuh]

"Burger King" are obviously royalists who aim to overthrow the US republic and replace it with a monarchy. You can clearly see it in their name. Really, what's their defence?

Re:reasonable

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, our current system of government seems to have failed miserably. How bad could it be.
"Let them eat shakes."

Re:reasonable

[Kjella]

To use a real world analogy a pirate's bay like Tortuga doesn't mean everyone there is a pirate or that they engage only in piracy. It might be a very popular thing among the ships making it their port of call, but it's not really the harbor master's business. TPBs defense has been simple, all content is there at direction of users. You can call it a thin defense but it's been strong enough that it's still running...

Re:reasonable

[Anonymous Coward]

While it's true that the plebes are generally not allowed to attain magnificent wealth the people of our nation has some of the best living conditions and greatest upward mobility of any time in history. We certainly aren't perfect, and there are many countries which may be better than us in one particular area or another but to write off our system of government as a failure is just silly. And yeah, I get that you were probably just making a joke.. I just get tired of people saying the US is a failure.

Re:reasonable

[misexistentialist]

All torrent sites are targets anyway, so it's best to turn the bow into the storm. Unless TPB removes un-pirated content it, like every torrent site, isn't "meant" for anything.

Re:reasonable

[krapski]

Instead of getting tired of it, perhaps you should get used to it.

Re:reasonable

[FatLittleMonkey]

Posting to undo accidental downmod.

Re:reasonable

[dintech]

Burger King, you must not serve those customers because they are villains. Macdonalds, you are free to continue taking their custom.

Well, they've already been letting that Hamburglar dude in for years. The King obviously holds himself to a higher moral standard than that scumbag Ronald.

Re:reasonable

[brit74]

You can call it a thin defense but it's been strong enough that it's still running...
No, it IS a thin defense, especially in light of their nasty-grams back to companies asking them to remove pirated content, even while the Pirate Bay removes child porn. It's a totally disingenuous "We have no control over the content! Unless we don't like it, then we'll do stuff. Did you blink? Because we just sent an email to the copyright owner telling them to go fuck themselves (thus proving what our intentions are), and now we suddenly don't have control anymore!"

Re:reasonable

[Raenex]

"Burger King" are obviously royalists who aim to overthrow the US republic and replace it with a monarchy

This is a bad analogy. Nobody associates Burger King with royalists. On the other hand, the "pirate" in The Pirate Bay is clearly associated with the "pirating" of copyrighted material. Also, the people behind The Pirate Bay have an anti-copyright stance and endorse pirating.

Re:reasonable

[vux984]

They aren't really asserting that they have no control.

They are asserting that they have no *legal obligation* whatsoever to remove the links.

That doesn't mean that they cannot remove links voluntarily if they personally find the content being linked to objectionable, as is evidently the case for child porn.

Re:reasonable

[Anonymous Coward]

And instead of you being jealous and bitter about it, why don't you work to improve your own country?

Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Haedrian]

"The industry groups counter by saying they have been left with no other choices after the criminal conviction of the Pirate Bay admins following their November 2010 appeal failed to close down the site. Instead, the number of Finns using the site only increased."

You'd think they worked out that suing people hasn't worked by now.

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Lord Juan]

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

Yes, but so will their profits, and remember, no freedom is worth a drop in their profits.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

...but so will their *egos*...

there, fixed that for ya

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Lord Juan]

It is an attempt to replicate their flawed logic, of course both ideas (the drop in profits and the worthless freedoms) are ridiculous.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[jimicus]

You'd think they worked out that suing people hasn't worked by now.

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

(Please note that I make no comment as to whether or not you're right, I'm simply commenting on why anyone might continue down this path long after it appears to everyone else that they're fantastically misguided).

It is hard to admit your own mistakes.

It is very hard to admit your own mistakes when you've been making them for so long that they've almost come to define you.

It is fantastically hard to admit to mistakes when you've got a socking great organisation set up to perpetuating them. At this stage, even if the man at the top knows that he's on the wrong course, a significant percentage of the people he's working with won't accept that.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[perryizgr8]

"The industry groups counter by saying they have been left with no other choices after the criminal conviction of the Pirate Bay admins following their November 2010 appeal failed to close down the site. Instead, the number of Finns using the site only increased."

You'd think they worked out that suing people hasn't worked by now.

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

you CAN get drm free mp3s from itunes now. has that actually decreased any piracy? nope.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

no, i liked profits better... seemes more accurate.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[elashish14]

I don't know what you refer to by 'industry' but the RIAA and MPAA gone way past the limit for me. Even if I could pay for it, I will on principle make sure not to give my money to them because I know that they're just going to use it to stifle our freedoms, using our money for their dirty schemes - hiring lawyers for extortion, bribing politicians for anti-freedom legislation, and so on.

I'm even reluctant to use Pandora because I know that they have to bend over for the RIAA, and that they must be making some cash on the side from it. I wish there were a non-RIAA alternative so I could find and listen to good music without supporting them. Maybe it's time to check out the Jamendo store or something else of the like. Another example: when friends give me itunes gift cards, I make sure to purchase from artists that have never had anything to do with the RIAA. I hope that's good enough and they don't have some deal on the side that still gets them a profit from non-label sales....

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[91degrees]

I'm not sure whether the ownership model makes sense when there's absolutley no tangible product involved at all. The licensing model is one I have particular distaste for, and I dare say I'm not alone in that respect. I like to have control of my own media rather than rely on someone else who may cease to exist.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[franciscohs]

And they should keep in mind, some piracy will ALWAYS remain, those are the people that wouldn't have bought the crap they pirated no matter the price.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[mooglez]

We are sorry...

        * We could not process your order. The sale of MP3 Downloads is currently available only to US customers located in the United States.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[bemymonkey]

The real question is whether or not it's increased sales... I know it has on my part.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[toxickitty]

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

They don't want that though, the minute you have a prefect digital copy you don't have to keep buying the same shit everytime we get a new technology to play it, and they certainly don't want that at all ^^

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Clairvoyant]

mp3 == music?

Or is it a crippled down version of it? I buy FLACs (preferably ones better than 16bit/44kHz (we don't live in the 70s anymore, guys)) on the Internet. I don't mind paying for them if the music is good. I'm not paying for mp3. It's like paying for mcdonalds. oh, hold on....
Not buying any CDs because the industry itself is retarded. "Let's see who rusts first!"

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[FlyingGuy]

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

Once again you and people like you are utterly clueless. You can go and buy DVD's, CD's and whatnot today AND you can use them for your own personal and private use pretty much any way you would like.

What you cannot do is decide to share them with the world by putting them on the net for anyone to download for free and that is what they have their panties in a bunch about.

My wife just loves John Mayer's music. We but it, she puts a copy on her iPod ( which she uses while bike riding and at the gym) through iTunes, we burn a copy of the CD and put on in the CD changer in the car and the original gets put into the CD collection. Guess what, the EVIL record companies don;t give a shit about that.

The EVIL record companies would take us to court if I set up a server, burned everything to MP3 and then connected it to the net, then advertised it on TPB!

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

I buy FLACs (preferably ones better than 16bit/44kHz (we don't live in the 70s anymore, guys))

Wrong decade. You should have said "we don't live in the 80s anymore." Recordings sold in the 70s were analog.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[perryizgr8]

maybe guys like you have extra-sensitive ears but most people cannot hear a difference between flac at 48bit/196kHz (numbers made up) and aac/mp3 at 320kbps.
i too haven't bough any cd or music over the net for about a decade now. i once bought an album on bandcamp, but it was $0.5 so that hardly counts as buying. lots of free downloads from bandcamp too. also, any song that is very good, i get from my friends. i dunno if that counts as piracy or not.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't think that piracy is just a non-US problem, do you really? If you do you're a fool and if you don't you've gone out of your way to miss the point which makes you a troll.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

sounds just like the war on drugs!

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Two things: firstly, you neglect to provide any source or figures for your claim that it's not reduced piracy. I can understand why you wouldn't provide figures - they're difficult to come by and when you do find them the source is usually biased, but simply omitting them and stating your opinion as fact doesn't make it so. There are plenty of respected sources arguing that DRM actually drives people to piracy.

Secondly, you completely ignored the "at a reasonable price" part of the sentence you highlighted. The fact is, in almost all cases it's as cheap if not cheaper for me to buy a physical CD/DVD/ebook/game burned to a disk or printed on paper from a bricks and mortar store (where its occupying valuable floorspace and requires dedicated retail staff, not to mention the logistics of delivery and the wholesale supply chain all contributing to the cost) than it is to buy a collection of bits over the internet. That doesn't represent good value, not even close. The fact that people are still buying so much music online, even when it represents a poor choice compared to the alternative, shows that people want to spend money, and there are plenty of again respected sources arguing that a drop in digital prices would do more to combat piracy than DRM and ridiculous restrictions on freedom and the internet and bought and paid for laws.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing is that average Joe is lazy as hell. I can't be bothered to go to the store to buy a CD.
What he wants is the opportunity to buy the same music online, in the same quality, at more or less the same price minus the distribution and printing costs.
Sadly the record companies are oblivious to this model.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[delinear]

Except it's not theft, since there is no intention to permanently deny another ownership of his property - calling it theft is as ridiculous as calling it murder. It's nothing more than a calculated use of chilling terminology to demonise something. If IP infringement is as bad as the labels claim, why are they scared to call it what it is? Could it be that most people see IP infringement as acceptable? In any event there is no permanent denial of ownership - the original owner still has his copy of the music. The moral is, when data is so easily duplicated that people have been able to trivially get it for free for well over a decade, the fact that there are still plenty of people willing to pay for it at all should be seen as a godsend - what the labels should be doing is playing with the price point to find the sweet spot instead of trying to impose artificial restrictions which are just a waste of everyone's time and money.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Nirvelli]

This reminds me of George Lucas' staff as seen in the Phantom Menace review.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Quince alPillan]

No, but Netflix and Pandora killed any video and music pirating I might have been doing. I'd much rather pay Netflix every month, and Pandora once a year, than having to deal with viruses, codec issues, and rampant quality issues.

The fact that I can have both services on my devices (Pandora works on my PS3) means that I don't have to format shift any more, either.

I still refuse to pay iTunes prices for music or videos, but Pandora is good enough that I don't need to download music any more. Netflix is far easier than pirating videos and has far more content than any one website, which means I don't have to search for something I might like.

While my evidence is merely anecdotal, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of other people didn't feel the same way.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[mooglez]

You don't think that piracy is just a non-US problem, do you really? If you do you're a fool and if you don't you've gone out of your way to miss the point which makes you a troll.

piracy is a worldwide problem, hence you cannot use examples or webstores that are only available in the united states to draw conclusions like the op did.
ie. that there already are viable alternatives to piracy => if piracy did not go down => it is the people and not the content managers who are at fault.

especially when this whole news article is about an EUROPEAN isp. hence the discussion would by logic be eurocentric, not us centric.

my post was to show that there is still a lot of work to do on the content managers side to bring out a product that can compete with a pirated product, around the world, and not just in some specific part of the world.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[razvan784]

I'm genuinely wondering if there is anything better than lossless coding at 16 bits per sample, 44kHz. Can you honestly hear the difference between this and any high sample rate / bit count? Is it a real improvement? If yes, is it due to poor encoding or poor sample rate conversion in software / hardware? Theoretically you shouldn't need more than 44k samples/s for encoding audio, and to hear the quantization noise of 16 bits you'd have to be in a really really quiet room, or wear some damn good headphones, and have very fine ears.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

You conveniently ommitted the "reasonable price" bit. Spending on a stream of bits the same amount which is asked for to purchase a physical, tangible good is not reasonable in any way.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, you can get them if you pay a premium over an already ridiculously high price per song. Prices need to go down aswell, not just making things DRM-free.

Though it wouldn't surprise me if the industry turns around and makes everything DRM-free, but they raise the price per song to $20 - And then still blame piracy for things not selling.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Requiem18th]

I think they believe in their freedoms. It's other people's freedoms that gets in their way.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Scarred Intellect]

Sounds just like our automotive manufacturers. It wasn't until Ford brought in a new CEO from outside the industry (from Boeing, actually) that it was realized how screwed up everything was. That's why Ford didn't need the bailout.

GM and Chrysler continued on as if the weren't doing anything wrong because they could see that they were doing something wrong. Bill Ford, Jr. said "We're an insular company in an insular industry in an insular town..." MPAA and RIAA are no different.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[AJH16]

"any song that is very good, i get from my friends. i dunno if that counts as piracy or not." - Yes it does.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[plover]

They don't want that though, the minute you have a prefect digital copy you don't have to keep buying the same shit everytime we get a new technology to play it, and they certainly don't want that at all ^^

This.

If buying CDs was "only buying the rights to listen to the music", our license would extend to whatever form of media it were on. The "rights" I bought to listen to Stairway to Heaven in the 1970s were never advertised as expiring, nothing in the album packaging or liner notes indicated that these rights would expire, therefore they should have extended beyond the vinyl to the CDs I acquired in the 1980s, or the MP3 I download from iTunes today.

They have proven this is not the case, because they charged me full price for the CD even though I owned the vinyl. If I truly owned the rights to listen to the music, I should have only had to pay a few dollars for the conversion to digital and the different media. But no, I paid exactly the same price as someone who didn't previously own the music on vinyl.

Either we're licensing the rights to listen, which should extend across media, or we're buying the bits and own them. They shouldn't get it both ways.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[AJH16]

I don't mind licensing as long as it is either a) guaranteed to be available indefinitely (as in will have restrictions removed if the provider goes under) or b) is a significantly lowered rate to provide non-permanent access to a wide variety (ala Netflix/Rhapsody/Napster/etc). The two things I care about as a consumer are perpetual access to content that I wish to support specifically and directly due to its high quality and temporary cheap access to content which offers simple entertainment but is not of a quality that merits purchasing permanently.

I would even go so far as to say I have no issue with DRM provided that a) it is guaranteed to always work (restrictions removed at end of support) and b) does not have a negative impact on the legitimate use of the product beyond what would be possible with a pirated version. This means internet connections should not be required, device allocations should be revocable (I should be able to move it from one device to another as much as I want), device allocations should be reasonable (I figure 5 to 10 is a reasonable number that avoids large scale piracy while fitting the majority of fair use rights), ideally, in the case of music it should be CD burnable and in the case of HD video it should be Bluray burnable. I think all of these objectives are technically achievable and honestly have no issue with DRM if the system meets them. I understand the desire to protect profits, but it can not come at the expense of the rights or convenience of legitimate customers. The music industry as a whole also needs to be radically restructured so that artists are better compensated, but that is a different discussion for a different time and is still not a valid reason to pirate, it is simply a valid reason to choose to not listen to that music or to only go to concerts of those bands.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[kevinmenzel]

Well, I have a home studio, and a signal chain that can easily outpace the dynamic range of 16-bit audio, so yeah, I can theoretically hear the difference between 16-bit and higher - but realistically have very few audio sources outside of Blu-Ray discs that even approach trying to use that dynamic range. As for higher sample rates... over time, less and less can I hear the difference, but particularly for really simple recordings (a single acoustic guitar or a solo piano), I prefer something higher than 48KHz though probably less than 88.2KHz frankly if such a sample rate were anywhere near standard because they tend to better represent the relation between overtones better. Only because generally speaking, the random low pass filter at the top end of even 48KHz typically has effects at slightly lower than the maximum audio frequencies. With 88.2 - there's not even close to a problem. However, as soon as I turn a computer on in that room or something... well, not worth it anymore. Because you're right, ideal conditions are pretty damned necessary - and you'd even need a quiet environment if you were listening on high-end headphones, because they're pretty much all going to be open headphones, not closed - and thus you aren't going to be getting much in the way of any reduction of room noise when listening. And if I were mastering audio, though I prefer 88.2KHz because frankly it's just the lowest well better than necessary standard sample rate, 96KHz is usually better for distribution because so many DACs don't do 88.2KHz, which means you rely on generally pretty awful re-sampling at the consumer end. That's even a problem on one of my computers. But that motherboard got relegated to my storage server long ago for many reasons, so it doesn't really come up.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

No freedom leads to their profits dropping, though, isn't that ironic.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[ibwolf]

My wife just loves John Mayer's music. We but it, she puts a copy on her iPod ( which she uses while bike riding and at the gym) through iTunes, we burn a copy of the CD and put on in the CD changer in the car and the original gets put into the CD collection. Guess what, the EVIL record companies don;t give a shit about that.

Of course the give a 'shit' about that, it is just unfortunate (from their perspective) that the CD specification was finalized long before DRM became an issue. They would love nothing more than to be able to sell you a separate copy for your iPod, car and home stereo. Indeed, Sonly tried very hard to 'fix' CDs so that you couldn't rip them!

Meanwhile video content is still DRM infested and digital books seem headed in that direction as well.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

you missed the whole at a reasonable price thing....

Mp3s are .99-1.29 a track last i checked (I use radio and pandora mostly) and you aren't getting physical media.

Personally I don't think that this is reasonable given the lack of manufacturing and shipping overhead

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

you CAN get drm free mp3s from itunes now. has that actually decreased any piracy? nope.

Seriously: this is totally news to me. I heard a few years ago that iTunes had dropped DRM but I didn't know they do mp3 now. Amazing: something Apple did, went relatively unpublicized! ;-)

There are a lot of complicating factors here...

1. iTunes store doesn't really count. As far as I know they don't have web sales like Amazon does. In order to buy music through iTunes, you need a proprietary client that has been ported to hardly any platforms (and on top of that, it happens to be astounding bad; iTunes it possibly very worst product that Apple has ever created, rivaling even the mid-1990s "road Apple" Performas). I would not be able to buy through iTunes even if I wanted to; I simply have no way. In some ways, this is much like DRM (i.e. Apple is still telling me they don't want my money), though there are some huge differences too (once you manage to get the file, unlike a DRM file, it should actually work.)
2. Music piracy never made sense. (And personally, I buy CDs, not mp3s. Even if Apple changed their mind and decided they were willing to do business with me, I wouldn't go for it.) Why does music piracy make no sense? Unlike video, DRM was never a major factor in preventing music sales. CDs are still available and they work flawlessly. It has always been trivially easy for anyone to buy unDRMed music. Unlike video pirates, music pirates have no one to blame but themselves.
3. Piracy is irrelevant. Sales are what matters. Asking whether piracy has changed with iTunes going MP3, misses the point. People should be asking whether or not sales have increased since then. If people are pirating and buying too as a result of try-before-you-buy, that is good news for music copyright holders.
4. And finally, seriously: that Apple sells MP3 now is not widespread knowledge. I am not kidding. I'm of half a mind to say that you might even be wrong but I don't know enough for sure to really be able to say that.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

It is fantastically hard to admit to mistakes when you've got a socking great organisation set up to perpetuating them. At this stage, even if the man at the top knows that he's on the wrong course, a significant percentage of the people he's working with won't accept that.

The man on top is paid enormous sums of money to make difficult decisions. Or well, he used to be. These days he's paid enormous sums of money to not make any decisions at all it would seem.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

The GP misspoke; they're not MP3s. Music purchased from the iTunes Store is 256kbps AAC (higher quality than 256kbps MP3), which is often produced from better-than-CD-quality original sources (according to Apple). The files are not encrypted, and should be playable with any software or device that supports AAC, which is most things that support MP3. Your AppleID (email address, usually) is stored in the ID3 tags, and iTunes provides no mechanism for removing this information, although it's easy to do with third-party utilities.

None of this applies to videos, which are still DRM-encumbered. I believe the free music downloads they offer are also encrypted, although I'm not sure.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[perryizgr8]

i am sorry, it seems that it sells aacs not mp3s.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

"any song that is very good, i get from my friends. i dunno if that counts as piracy or not." - Yes it does.

Actually, if the GP is in Canada, it is not illegal to copy _yourself_ a friend's legally purchased CD or tape. You cannot instruct your friend to copy it for you (legally), but you can copy it yourself.

This is one of the rights we have paid for with the years and years of blank media tariffs (tapes and CDRs). Of course, this is also a right the record industry (after profiting for years from the tariffs) want to get rid of now that they see it as a threat.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[GNious]

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

you CAN get drm free mp3s from itunes now. has that actually decreased any piracy? nope.

Link to study, please

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[FlyingGuy]

No, they really don't, why because it really has no practical net effect on their bottom line.

What does have a net effect on their bottom line are people who firmly that if they go and buy one copy of a CD that they can then rip it to MP3 and then post it for everyone to download for free.

With a music title you are talking perhaps 50 to 100 thousand invested by the record companies to produce the final product. With movies you are talking 50 to 100 MILLION invested by studios to produce the final product.

Both of these are a serious gamble because they both rely on the very fickle listening and viewing tastes of audiences. If you think record companies and movie studios make bank on everything they do you are seriously deluded as more often then not they lose money and no not fancy Hollywood accounting losses, I mean real losses or little or no profit for the money invested.

They also really don't care if you load it up and invite a bunch of friends over because chances are your taste in movies and music are much like that of your friends so chances are that your friends will go out and purchase a copy of something they liked because they would like to listen and or watch that same thing again. But if you as the person who invited all those friends over decides to have already burned 14 copies to hand out to your friends as they leave have just taken 14 potential sales away from the company that footed the bill to get the title made. If you put it on a server and then put a l;ink on TPB you have just taken away perhaps millions of potential sales.

When you go out and buy a copy for yourself and keep it for yourself that is good, they make money you get a movie or set of music you like and everyone wins. When you put it on a torrent for everyone I guess you get to think your cool, the other people who download it get it for free but the loser is the one carrying the load of the investment of making all that stuff you like. If that happens to much more often they don;t invest anymore and everyone else eventually loses.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[FlyingGuy]

Really? iTunes sees to be proving you wrong

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

"any song that is very good, i get from my friends. i dunno if that counts as piracy or not." - Yes it does.

No it does not

There is no evidence that the music obtained from these 'friends' was not legal.

Even if it was illegal its copyright infringement and not piracy.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[RobertLTux]

and Philips took them to court over the trademark violation

want to know how to tell that a audio disc is in fact a "real" cd?? look for the Compact Disc Digital Audio logo (may not be present on some real cds but will be absent from any "fake" cds)

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem lies in the quality of those mp3s, as well as the price. Personally I wouldn't buy music unless I knew the artist was getting their far share. For example, I always donate to the humble bundle packs when they come out (games), because I know it' not $70 in licensing fees. This can be seen heavily in our music industry today. Record labels are cheap and greedy, and don't deserve the wages they get.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you need iTunes to do it? If yes, then it is not what I'd describe as reasonable. Not all of us are fanatical Apple followers.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Duradin]

Is it yours to take? No? Theft. There, no physical property analog loophole.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Piracy won't decrease as long as IP laws are not updated to the 21st century.

IP is basically just information: an idea that is somehow useful or has value. In the information age, information (ideas) flows freely, and as such some (many) people feel that the information they used to pay for, should now be shared/given out for free.

Really, it can be argued that this desire to share information has always existed (i.e before Internet, people copied music via tapes). The technology simply enabled people to do what they've always wanted to do, easier.

This of course doesn't change the reality that content creators need to eat too, so they have to be (fairly) compensated somehow. And there lies the reason why IP laws need to be changed so that information can flow freely while the content creators can still be rewarded (and encourage creation of new ideas/content for the betterment of humanity, not just for profits)

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

It is very hard to admit your own mistakes when you've been making them for so long that they've almost come to define you.

Which is, sadly, why we often have to wait an entire generation for real change to come about. Sometimes the only way things change is for the entrenched to die off and be replaced by new blood.

Which suggests that if modern medicine ever gets to the point of seriously increases the lifespan of the rich, most progress in society will come to a grinding halt.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

so they "failed" - don't they *get* that? Thy don't get to do what they want.. sheesh... it's like a toddler who keeps crying even when they should know that mommy is immune to their whining by now.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need a license to listen to music, just like you don't need a license to read a book, watch a movie or (yes, even this) play a game or use a program.

When you bought a vinyl record in the 70s, you owned it, literally. You could do everything you wanted with it, including shredding it, or eating it, or putting it on your record player and listening to it. The only restrictions there are on what you can do are legal in nature: copyright law. A license cannot take away what you can already legally do: it can only grant additional rights that copyright law wouldn't normally give you. There may be conditions you have to meet in order to accept the license (you don't get to pick and choose when it comes to contracts: you either accept them or you don't), but you don't have to accept it, and if you don't, you don't lose the "right to listen to your record".

So you never lost the right to listen to your record simply because the whole concept of such a right makes no sense.

But you also don't have an entitlement to be able to listen to the record you bought. If it works, fine; if it deteriorates, breaks, gets stolen or whatever, sorry, you can't get a new one for free, for instance. Similarly, if it gets stolen, while the thief may be punished for stealing it, he cannot be punished for listening to it: he, too, does not need a license to do so.

When you buy an MP3, you literally own those bits insofar as that you can do whatever you want with them, too. You can delete them, you can encrypt them, and you can, of course, listen to them. Again, what you cannot do is decided by copyright, and licenses can only grant you additional rights (which may be tied to certain conditions); but you don't have to accept them, and if you don't, you can listen to your MP3 to your heart's content.

The content producers know this, too. That's one reason why they're so hell-bent on forcing DRM down everyone's throat: because DRM makes it difficult to do what you are legally allowed to without accepting the contract ("license") offered, and because the DMCA indeed makes working around this and actually using your property illegal.

But the DMCA does not change the basic fact that if you have a DRM-unencumbered MP3, you own the bits the same way you own a printed book, and you can listen to it freely.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but Netflix and Pandora killed any video and music pirating I might have been doing. I'd much rather pay Netflix every month, and Pandora once a year, than having to deal with viruses, codec issues, and rampant quality issues.

The fact that I can have both services on my devices (Pandora works on my PS3) means that I don't have to format shift any more, either.

I still refuse to pay iTunes prices for music or videos, but Pandora is good enough that I don't need to download music any more. Netflix is far easier than pirating videos and has far more content than any one website, which means I don't have to search for something I might like.

While my evidence is merely anecdotal, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of other people didn't feel the same way.

Neflix and Pandora, unfortunately, do not work outside of the United States due to licensing reasons.

I'll give you a few seconds to think about who was behind that.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[X.25]

you CAN get drm free mp3s from itunes now. has that actually decreased any piracy? nope.

And how do you know that?

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[gl4ss]

finnish music industry is a state protected bunch of goons, it's a system to provide some producers with money they shouldn't be entitled to at all. so you got radio play on your shitty copy of a foreign song you published in '80s? WELL SURE YOU'RE ENTITLED TO MONEY FROM HD SALES . so the fuckers are getting money already for the music that is copied over on tpb, basically just how popular it is in traditional media decides how it's split. meanwhile publishing music has gotten cheaper than it ever was, finland is full of small studios, so many that theyre's not a chance in hell for them to be commercially profitable, but they'd still be churning out music even if we did away with copyright totally.
  i heard you like bold so i put bold in your bold.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Kjella]

My wife just loves John Mayer's music. We but it, she puts a copy on her iPod ( which she uses while bike riding and at the gym) through iTunes, we burn a copy of the CD and put on in the CD changer in the car and the original gets put into the CD collection. Guess what, the EVIL record companies don;t give a shit about that.

My wife just loves Spielberg's films. We buy it, she puts a copy on her iPad/no-dvd laptop/media server, we burn a copy of the DVD and put on in the DVD changer in the car and the original gets put into the DVD collection. Guess what, the EVIL film companies don't give a shit about that.

Guess what, the above is illegal at least in the US (DMCA) and EU (EUCD). That CDs aren't the same is only because CDs are from before DRM became popular.

The EVIL record companies would take us to court if I set up a server, burned everything to MP3 and then connected it to the net, then advertised it on TPB!

What they care about is the "advertised it on TPB" part, but what they're trying to stop is the whole copying part. If it was up to them, the CD you buy would be a one-off. If you scratch it, you lose it. If you don't like the format, tough luck. All the things you're talking about are from the music industry's point of view old flaws and oversights which means they lost DRM as a tool. If it was up to them, it'd be just as illegal to copy as a DVD.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[perryizgr8]

this is true. i replaced aac with mp3 by mistake.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[perryizgr8]

continued efforts to eradicate piracy by recording companies suggest that piracy is not decreasing. otherwise why'd they be so worried?

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but Netflix and Pandora are US-only. The US is also where movies are actually released on the announced dates.

And all of the services you mentioned require a credit card. In the rest of the world, credit cards aren't very commonplace. Most people have debit cards.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Joce640k]

The "Compact Disc" was created in the 1970s... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc#History

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes it has... I love DRM free stuff.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Amouth]

same here - i have a rather large music collection that i don't touch now because pandora does what i want - now if i want a specific song right then i will go find it and play it but 99% of the time it's pandora..

i never did bother to download music and movies but i did rip everything i bought so that i would have it on what ever computer i was using.. now i don't have to bother.

i do wish pandora would increase it's catalog of non main stream some more.. they have a good selection but it wouldn't hurt to get wider.. (kind of wish they would include music from magnatunes - love both of them)

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Tharsman]

Bull$#!%!

How about games like World of Goo, released DRM free and facing 90% piracy rates? Bootleggers (I dislike the piracy term, pirates kill people) copy things just because they don't want to pay for them and they know they can copy them without going to jail, worst thing they will get is a notice from their ISP to stop it.

There is no other excuse for bootlegging. If you disagree with some company's moral decisions, be it price point, content type or DRM, how about these people also grow some balls and stick to moral grounds themselves and entirely disregard said product instead of bootlegging it?

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[master_p]

> When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down. How can you own something you've not created? How can it be ensured people will not share the stuff they bought with their neighbors, cousins, friends, and even online strangers?

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Yes, but so will their profits...

Which, by the way, has not been proven. They think their paying customers are thieves just waiting for the opportunity.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[master_p]

> I should have only had to pay a few dollars for the conversion to digital and the different media. Why? what makes you think you only have to pay a few dollars?

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[mmcuh]

Did he take it? No, it's still there.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

you CAN get drm free mp3s from itunes now. has that actually decreased any piracy? nope.

Unless zero Mp3s have been sold, how can you actually state that? Are masses of people buying MP3s then 'pirating' them?

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

you CAN get drm free mp3s from itunes now. has that actually decreased any piracy? nope.

I thought, by all accounts, iTunes had created a significant increase in music spending.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Piracy has been declining for years but it keeps spiking every time the **AA's do something stupid and drives users back to piracy. The **AA's simply game the numbers by pointing at the spikes and saying "LOOK! PIRACY INCREASE! NEED MOAR LEGISLATION!" and then watch as the numbers gradually drop and profits slowly increase as people get sued less.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Yes, but so will their profits, and remember, no freedom is worth a drop in their profits."

How do you know? Usually takes a lot of testing to find out where you ware on the curve.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[sg_oneill]

Yes, but so will their profits, and remember, no freedom is worth a drop in their profits.

Not really. I havent pirated an MP3 in ages. This started precisely the time it was possible for me to get DRM free MP3's and Oggs at a fair price.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

We but it, she puts a copy on her iPod ( which she uses while bike riding and at the gym) through iTunes, we burn a copy of the CD and put on in the CD changer in the car and the original gets put into the CD collection. Guess what, the EVIL record companies don;t give a shit about that.

Yes they do. They think you owe them for every copy that you have. That's why in the original iTunes DRM scheme there was a limit to how many machines could have a copy of that music. They also think Taxi cab drivers owe them a licensing fee for having the radio on in their car while passengers are riding.

You should take a closer look at those poor innocent little record companies that you think have been so unfairly judged. If you actually do this, please do it in front of a web cam so we can watch the expressions on your face change while you read about what their idea of 'fair use' is.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

you CAN get drm free mp3s from itunes now. has that actually decreased any piracy? nope.

Two points:

1. You missed the key phrase "reasonable price".
2. The Pirate Bay is used for a lot more than just music.

Bonus point, how do you know whether piracy went up/down/stayed the same after iTunes started offering DRM free music? You do a study?

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[CastrTroy]

ported to hardly any platforms

. What? It works on Windows and MAC, so it's ported to 98% of the desktop market. You can argue with those numbers if you want, but the point still stands. iTunes works on the vast majority of desktop computers. Sure it doesn't work on Linux, but that's only a very small percentage of the market.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

You missed an important bit - the reasonable price. Why do downloaded albums sometimes cost more than the CDs? Heck, it makes me want to stick to vinyl. Maybe the consumers are still hurting from the recession, see the exorbitant lifestyles many pop stars lead, and resent it?

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

If I truly owned the rights to listen to the music, I should have only had to pay a few dollars for the conversion to digital and the different media.

But you could have had the digital version for just the price of a blank CD and the appropriate cables to hook your turntable up to your sound-card. I'm sure the record industry wants you to keep buying whatever new format comes out, but even if you are arguably allowed to media-shift, you can't expect them to come over to your house and transfer the bits for you.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Bucky24]

I think parent means it's not available on any of the mobile platforms or game consoles, like pandora is.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[dabadab]

If buying CDs was "only buying the rights to listen to the music", our license would extend to whatever form of media it were on.

Oh, Jesus, stop this bullshit.
There's no "right ot listen to the music", or better put, everybody has the right to listen to any music. Listening to music is not limited by copyright in any form.

When you buy an LP / CD / casette / whatever, the ONLY thing you are buying is the physical thing itself, nothing more, nothing less.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Bucky24]

I completely agree with you as far as movies. Though to be honest, when I used to torrent movies (before I got Netflix) it was mostly to find out if the movie was any good, since often that can't be determined from the teaser trailers. I would generally buy the movie afterwards if I liked it, since most torrents are poor quality. I wonder if that counts as piracy still?

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

>My wife just loves John Mayer's music. We but it, she puts a copy on her iPod ( which she uses while bike riding and at the gym) through iTunes, we burn a copy of the CD and put on in the CD changer in the car and the original gets put into the CD collection. Guess what, the EVIL record companies don;t give a shit about that.

So, you've not heard of this thing called an "Audio CDR" or "Music CDR" yet, have you?

http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq07.html#S7-17

The record companies cared enough about it they forced all non-computer burners to only burn on piracy-tax-paid CD-Rs. In fact, you're not "supposed" to be burning audio onto those $0.20 CD-Rs. They're for data purposes only. You're taking advantage of a loophole they tried hard to close. So they do give a shit, a very huge large expensive lobbying shit that they managed to get a Pyrrhic victory for.

How quickly we forget.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Mister Whirly]

That may be true, but the first music to be released on a CD was not until 1982.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Duradin]

Doesn't matter if something is still there, it wasn't his to do with as he pleased.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Bucky24]

how about these people also grow some balls and stick to moral grounds themselves and entirely disregard said product instead of bootlegging it?

Absolutely. Bootleggers don't NEED the movies or music or video games they pirate. They WANT them, and so they believe they deserve them just... because they exist, I guess?

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[perryizgr8]

songs downloaded from itunes can be transfered to any device, reencoded, you can do anything with them. also, i believe they now have a cloud streaming thing too for ipod/iphones, though i haven't tried that.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[perryizgr8]

I completely agree with you as far as movies. Though to be honest, when I used to torrent movies (before I got Netflix) it was mostly to find out if the movie was any good, since often that can't be determined from the teaser trailers. I would generally buy the movie afterwards if I liked it, since most torrents are poor quality. I wonder if that counts as piracy still?

i don't think so. torrents nowadays are very high quality. you can get 5.1ch sound, dual audio, multiple subtitles, and of course 720p or 1080p.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[mmcuh]

How does that make it "theft"?

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[tsa]

Isn't that everywhere? It's certainly the same here in the Netherlands.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[omglolbah]

In Norway it is legal to get copies of such material from friends and family.

Yay

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or the entire US military.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[FlyingGuy]

Meanwhile video content is still DRM infested and digital books seem headed in that direction as well.

Gosh I wonder why? Hmmm could it be that ANY business model where you publish something, sell it ONCE and then 400.000 people now have a copy of it and they don't need to buy will absolutely fail might have something to do with it.

You want DRM free content? Try not giving it away and instead tell your friends, "Hey man I am glad you like it, but if you want it you have to go and buy your own copy because I don't pirate content because I want DRM free content that I can use on my device(s) for my own personal use."

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Viruses? Codec issues? Rampant quality issues?

Man... let me just say... you're doing it wroooooong ;)

That sounds like something out of a RIAA/MPAA press release... getting viruses while trying to download an mp3/avi? Seriously? LOL.

Codec issues? Dude... if it doesn't open in VLC player, you can just consider it corrupted and be done with it.

*sigh* younglings, these days...

I guess I don't have to tell you how we had to climb the hill both ways, under heavy snow, back in the days. Just to get a crappy ASCII rendition of your latest blockbuster. And we liked it.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Gosh I wonder why? Hmmm could it be that ANY business model where you publish something, sell it ONCE and then 400.000 people now have a copy of it and they don't need to buy will absolutely fail might have something to do with it."

I think the better question is: why should we let the industry maintain a business model if said model can fail so easily without (increases costs of) policing/intervention (and the tighter they grasp, the more will slip through their fingers... that line was said in a movie ;p). It's inefficient. In almost any other industry, if you're inefficient, you'll be replaced by those who are more efficient.

Or should we expect the government to bail out the movie/music industry some time in the future?

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[drinkypoo]

iPad has computerless setup now, right? Can you buy tracks on it as well?

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

you CAN get drm free mp3s from itunes now. has that actually decreased any piracy? nope.

How can you tell? The "piracy" figures being thrown around come mainly from the industry, and we know they're not exactly impartial.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[AJH16]

Fair enough, it would more accurately be copyright infringement and it does apparently depend on jurisdiction. In the US, it is pretty clear that copying individual songs from friends isn't legit, but it is also weird because if you recorded it off the radio, it is legal. If you think about it though, the radio station normally pays far more to play the song than your friend paid for the CD (unless the record company is giving it to the station or even paying the station to play it for publicity). The same is true of legit DJs for special events. Generally speaking, the idea behind a consumer CD sale is that you are buying it for personal, non-commercial consumption (not you specifically, but the holder of the disk). You are welcome to play it for your friends and family or any non-public, non-commercial setting really, but if someone wants to be able to have their own copy, then it is just that a copy. It's no longer someone listening to your copy, but duplication and not generally covered by US law (at least under my understanding.)

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The industry groups counter by saying they have been left with no other choices after the criminal conviction of the Pirate Bay admins following their November 2010 appeal failed to close down the site. Instead, the number of Finns using the site only increased."

You'd think they worked out that suing people hasn't worked by now.

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

you CAN get drm free mp3s from itunes now. has that actually decreased any piracy? nope.

Spotify more or less killed off all music piracy in Sweden - until the record industry forced them to apply a very very strict listening scheme for the free users.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, Sonly tried very hard to 'fix' CDs so that you couldn't rip them!

No, Sony tried to fix your computer so you can't rip CD's.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[mandelbr0t]

Yes, but so will their profits, and remember, no freedom is worth a drop in their profits.

The entire point is that their profits will go up, since piracy is such a horrible drain on their income. This is posturing, nothing more. Pride goeth before the fall.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're getting viruses from pirating video and music (?!?), you're doing it wrong!

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[JAlexoi]

And where are teh movies? That is the biggest thing that people go to TBP. Music piracy has gone down with legal sales channels becoming available...


When the industry stops partitioning their customers like they do today, then we can talk...
Could you tell me, why are they demanding more from Amazon MP3 store for the ability to sell MP3s at higher EU rates to new EU members? How about movies? Movie streaming services are essentially non-existent outside US. Digital downloads are also stupidly limited...

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[JAlexoi]

I would do the same, as long as they just introduce such a service!!!

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[DinDaddy]

You name both CDs and DVDs, and then proceed to describe the process by which you can do whatever you want with the CD, but ignore that the same steps are not "allowed" or approved for DVDs, although they are quite nearly as easy. The studios do NOT want you burning copies of those, or putting them on your ipod, unless you have sprung for the deluxe disk with their digital copy.

If you think the record companies wouldn't like to be doing a similar thing, and that wasn't one of the major goals of adding DRM to music, you're not paying attention. The reason they can't is their medium (the CD) was developed before such things were thought, and the cat was too far out of the bag to get back in. They tried with SACD and DVD-A, but misjudged the market's direction.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

[citation needed], in plainer english

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Travelsonic]

Is it his to "take"? No Dis he "take" it in the LEGAL sense - you know, REQUIRED FOR THEFT to occur? No.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Travelsonic]

How about games like World of Goo, released DRM free and facing 90% piracy rates?

They say 90%, but really - how accurate is that? It just intuitively feels exaggerated.

Bootleggers (I dislike the piracy term, pirates kill people) copy things just because they don't want to pay for them and they know they can copy them without going to jail,

I don't disagree with your assertion that people do it for that reason, but I must call out your gross generalization, as people have reasons they feel legitimate that don't include merely doing it for the ability to do so. Of course, subjectivity is always present.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think its a bit late for that, it would most likely increase due to the new ease of distribution and copying.

They dug a nice hole and buried themselves all at the same time.

I don't actually see any way for them to recover from this. But what do I know, I just copy stuff, cause, ya know, Jesus did it.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

If I truly owned the rights to listen to the music, I should have only had to pay a few dollars for the conversion to digital and the different media.

But you could have had the digital version for just the price of a blank CD and the appropriate cables to hook your turntable up to your sound-card. I'm sure the record industry wants you to keep buying whatever new format comes out, but even if you are arguably allowed to media-shift, you can't expect them to come over to your house and transfer the bits for you.

I'm certain they'll claim that violates the DMCA.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[mcl630]

Since when does iTunes have music "in the same quality" as a CD? Last I heard they sell 256Kbps AAC. And since when do they sell at "the same price minus the distribution and printing costs"?

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[sjames]

Ever tried to get "your" DVDs to skip a commercial?

How about making a working copy for the kids to use while the paid for fair and square original is kept safe and pristine somewhere?

Any ability to do either of those things is in spite of the *AA (which once tried to get a ban on recording devices) and their heavy handed maneuvering rather than because of it. So is the ability to rip a CD for an iPod.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[cynyr]

same a week ago I bought 4 or so albums on amazon

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[cynyr]

Also most of his friends could be in bands that use the tracks they give to him as a way to fill up the live gigs where they make the money they use to buy ramen, and whiskey.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Ramahan]

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

Once again you and people like you are utterly clueless. You can go and buy DVD's, CD's and whatnot today AND you can use them for your own personal and private use pretty much any way you would like.

What you cannot do is decide to share them with the world by putting them on the net for anyone to download for free and that is what they have their panties in a bunch about.

My wife just loves John Mayer's music. We but it, she puts a copy on her iPod ( which she uses while bike riding and at the gym) through iTunes, we burn a copy of the CD and put on in the CD changer in the car and the original gets put into the CD collection. Guess what, the EVIL record companies don;t give a shit about that.

The EVIL record companies would take us to court if I set up a server, burned everything to MP3 and then connected it to the net, then advertised it on TPB!

If anyone is clueless I'd say it you since it seems you haven't kept track of what those Evil Record companies have actually said in court! Might want to check a discussion from 2007 here on Slashdot about just that in RIAA Argues That MP3s From CDs Are Unauthorized

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[dswskinner]

Yep. As a matter of fact you've been able to purchase music on the iPad since it was launched. iPod touch and iPhones have had the same capability for at least a couple of years now.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Engeekneer]

When the industry starts giving people what they want - DRM-free stuff they can 'own' and use whichever way they like, at a reasonable price - then piracy will go down.

I'm not saying that the music industry is right in this matter, but to be fair, there are several online stores that sell DRM free mp3s, have a good selection of music, and have reasonable prices. For example Equaldreams, Meteli.net and Radio Rock store. These have pretty much killed all my music pirating. Sadly we don't have access to the Amazon mp3 store, which I loved, but these are okish.

The bigger problem is that you really can't get tv series/movies in a similar way.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[billcopc]

The only thing the music and film industries care about is the bottom line, same as any other business.

The problem with this is that it is a giant pyramid scheme. Top 40 music doesn't cost 50 to 100 thousand dollars to make, it costs a few hours or days of a person's time per song. The only reason that number gets inflated 100x is GOUGING! Studio engineers gouge. Equipment manufacturers gouge. Account executives gouge. Venues gouge. Payola DJs gouge. Retail distributors gouge. Everyone is making a fortune off of other people's work, everyone except the few people who actually created the product in the first place. As consumers, we are stuck paying for all this gouging.

With Hollywood it's a thousand times worse. Actors making fortunes then failing to pay tax on it, just for standing around looking overly angry on camera. Just look at the last two Harry Potter movies, which supposedly cost $250 million to make (as a pair). That represents over $15,000 per second of resultant footage, $900,000 per minute. How much actual work went into the production of 276 minutes of film ? And how much of it is just extortionate hollywood salaries for the already-rich and famous ? Some people make great movies for barely a million that rake in the big bucks, while others milk the cow dry - the James Camerons and Michael Bays of the industry.

The problem is not with the consumers. The problem is with the business model. If they expect to turn a profit, they need to be far more realistic about expenses. We have better things to do with money than funneling it directly into Scientology's coffers.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[billcopc]

The problem is they expect to do the work once, and get paid over and over for it. That's just a hop away from Wall Street's practice of making up numbers and calling them money.

Recorded music is important, but to rely on such a cheap, trivially duplicated item for your primary income is just plain foolish. Artists want to make money ? Play good concerts (longer than 80 minutes FFS!), sell merch, connect with your fans. If that all sounds like too much work, get out of the music scene and get yourself a day job like everyone else. It shouldn't matter if you're playing to a sold-out stadium or a thousand-count bar in a small town, you're getting paid to do what you love. It's either that or the old 9-to-5 with bosses and rules and no fun.

I actually believe artists should release their own torrents, in very high quality. It's the most effective promotion you could ever want, and it costs about 15 minutes of your time and less than a gigabyte of upload traffic. Focus on attracting fans first, the money will come later. Play concerts, if people like you enough, they will even travel to go see you. Heck, I've been on countless day-long bus rides to and from concerts, and if you provide a discussion forum they will arrange carpooling amongst each other. Cost to you: $20 / month for web hosting, plus a little of your time. Revenue for one small concert (tickets and merch): $800. If you want, you can stay at that level, or you can build up your fan base and work your way up to bigger venues. Look at an act like Die Antwoord, they played to a sold-out crowd of 750 in Montreal last summer. I don't know the exact terms of their contract, but even if they went with an unfavorable door split deal, they would have walked away with at least $5000, after paying the venue, promoter and rentals. They are indie as hell and very strange, but they play their gigs and rev up their fans and they reap the rewards. This was long before they ever had any music up for sale, it was all free to stream and download from their web site.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Profits are all relative to total sales. when a song is digitized it is widely know that distributing it digitally is much, much, cheaper. The consumer education levels of actual costs have significantly increased over the years and the consumption rate of media has also increased significantly. By offering a lower cost DRM free media which is legal and legitimate the 'Lost profits' will easily be made back by total volume of consumption.

Profits can also be increased by updating an aging business model. Frankly the model currently being used has refused to adopt to the times. In most industries organization fall pretty hard and pretty fast for not adapting their model. In the music and film industry they have chosen to litigate rather then adapt. Its pathetic.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't want that though, the minute you have a prefect digital copy you don't have to keep buying the same shit everytime we get a new technology to play it, and they certainly don't want that at all ^^

This.

If buying CDs was "only buying the rights to listen to the music", our license would extend to whatever form of media it were on. The "rights" I bought to listen to Stairway to Heaven in the 1970s were never advertised as expiring, nothing in the album packaging or liner notes indicated that these rights would expire, therefore they should have extended beyond the vinyl to the CDs I acquired in the 1980s, or the MP3 I download from iTunes today.

They have proven this is not the case, because they charged me full price for the CD even though I owned the vinyl. If I truly owned the rights to listen to the music, I should have only had to pay a few dollars for the conversion to digital and the different media. But no, I paid exactly the same price as someone who didn't previously own the music on vinyl.

Either we're licensing the rights to listen, which should extend across media, or we're buying the bits and own them. They shouldn't get it both ways.

They sold you the bits and you own them. With a CD you own a thin disc with a specific pattern on them. You also own a computer. With the computer you can make a digital copy. The RIAA and artists have never owned a digital copyright on anything they've released in physical format. They didn't call the computer a game-changer for nothing kiddos.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[drinkypoo]

So in other words, the iTunes experience IS available on a mobile platform... I'm not sure why you'd want that experience, given how crap iTunes the program is, but it's available...

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[AJH16]

In that case, it either wouldn't be a copyrighted work (clearly not violating copyright if the work is not copywritten) or he would be acting under a granted license. It doesn't have to be all formal. If the band owns the copyrights and gives it to him with the intent that he spread it around to generate hype, then it's all good. It doesn't have to be some formal arrangement. Copyright isn't a bad thing, it was designed to protect artists and in an ideal world it would. It just really needs a lot of reform to avoid the current abuses it receives. (For one, I think the copyright should always remain with the artist, if someone wants to sell their work, they should not get permanent rights to it, but rather rights for a period of time.)

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Joce640k]

What does that have to do with anything?

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[Mister Whirly]

What does the Compact Disc being invented in 1978 have to do with anything? The original post was about buying digital music - which was not available until 1982 on CD. Hence the relevancy. (How you pointing out it was actually invented, but not used for music, in the 70s is relevant I am unsure as well.) It seemed that you were correcting the poster for talking about buying digital music in the 80s by inferring it was available in the 70s digitally on CD. It was not. I feel like this is an overly long explanation for something most people will easily derive from the context of the posts. Oh well. You asked.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[dswskinner]

Its crap in your opinion of course. I have no problems with it.

(I do run it on a Mac though)

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[FlyingGuy]

No you are clueless about cause and effect. Why do you think they have armies of lawyers out to nail everyone's ass to the wall regardless of degree of guilt?

Because Sherlock WE have forced them into that position. I am guessing you are one of those people that gets your kicks or want other people to think you are cool by Burning Copies and giving them away or ripping movies and putting them up as a torrent. Guess what that removes sales you idiot and that costs those people a lot of money.

Their scorched earth policy is a direct result of people stealing their content.

You want to know why there is DRM garbage all over everything? Look in the mirror and there is your answer.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[FlyingGuy]

Groovy baby! That is the business model they chose.

Does everyone want to choose that? Obviously the answer is NO or their would be no record companies.

People sign with record labels for whatever reason they do, they know the contracts are oppressive and pretty much downright theft, but they do sign on the bottom line and that is the agreement they enter into, no one forced them.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[FlyingGuy]

No, the better question is why should we as a society tolerate infringement of copyrighted material?

The law provides that the right to copy and distribute material that falls under the provisions of the law is exclusively granted to the owner of said material, not some dickhead who thinks that copyright means they have the right to copy anything.

I bet you love FOOS as well. Ever look at the copyright notices that are all over 99% of the code? Unless something is expressly submitted to the public domain then those works are controlled by the author for the period of time for the copyright. Ever look at the terms and conditions for distributing said works? There are lots and lots of very specific controls on what you can and cannot do. If you are in doubt go and read the Apache web server terms and conditions.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[KingBenny]

i get the feeling they are somewhat shifting attention towards the second-hand market lately so maybe we should expect sites like ebay or amazon getting sued over the sales of second hand media causing a drop in profits, there's very few games, cd's or dvd's i buy at the full price tbh, i haven't even jumped on the bluray wagon yet since i think those prices are outrageously ridiculous for the little bit of increased quality you get and the tons of useless content you get like interviews or some director blabbering over the whole movie about why this and that was done so and so doesn't convince me either. Piratebay must be a nightmare to marketeers since no matter the ad campaign, you can always get a 'trial' version there before you buy it :-)

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[billcopc]

Why do bands sign on that dotted line ? Because for the longest time, it was the ONLY way to get any distribution. It still is, if you want your record on the shelves of Wal-Mart and other mega-retailers. You can't just walk up to the greeter with a box of your own CDs and say "Please sell these and we'll split it 50/50". You also cannot get any significant promotion outside your home town unless you have money to pay for such services.

In my experience, there are three types of big-label artists.

1. People who are well-established and can command mutually beneficial contracts
2. People who are new to the industry, have no contacts, no resources, no money, and thus no leverage
3. People who just don't give a shit and want to party on the label's dime

That last one is a dying breed. Big labels just don't want to support their artists that way anymore, it's bad for the image, but the other two are still going strong. There are some musicians who will do just about anything for the chance to get up on stage and play in front of a crowd, even if it means selling their rights away for a tiny bit of tour money.

The internet is slowly changing that, and home-based studios can rival the big guns, if you're willing to invest about $25k and know where you're going. It's quite realistically possible for an indie artist with enough talent and start-up cash to stay indie and earn a healthy living from it, but like any other small business it takes dedication and perseverance, not the most common traits in your average teenaged musician.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[FlyingGuy]

You obviously have no idea what it takes to a get a movie from concept to the theater.

Take Titanic, at the time for most expensive movie ever made. The costs for building the full scale models of the titanic? I mean that took a small army of engineers, CAD Monkey's, carpenters, painters, set designers, set decorators, not to mention the huge fucking tank they used to make the waves, wind, spray and whatnot look like it was actually in the North Atlantic.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[billcopc]

I'm sure it did, just as it would cost me a billion dollars to satisfy all my I.T. clients' unreasonable demands. Does it add as much to the entertainment value ? I've had more fun watching cheap, cheesy Tarantino flicks and B-movies than almost anything out of Hollywood. Looking back 10 years, the few blockbusters I really enjoyed were the Batman reboots, and the odd guilty pleasure of Jason Statham flicks. I'm not trying to be a film snob, but the majority of >20m movies have a back-of-the-napkin plot that is invariably:

1. Boy meets girl.
2. Bad guy threatens intercourse.
3. Bad guy hurts good guy's feelings.
4. Boy has improbable luck in defeating bad guy.
5. Boy marries girl.
and don't forget:
6. Random ambiguous ending sets up for a sequel

I kind-of feel bad for all the true artists working on such gigs, because they're wasting their talent on a shit story, but at the same time they're making the conscious decision to sell out, like any other artist.

I'll take a Coen Brothers' or Gondry over a big-budget wankfest any day.

Re:Why hasn't it clicked yet?

[FlyingGuy]

Well the brothers Coen average around 25 million a movie YMMV bu their movies have never told a story with the kind of scope like Titanic. I really don't think you could tell that story without being grandiose and giving it the correct feel.

As to selling out... That is pretty much a very very subjective judgement. Was Kate Winslet selling out, Leo DiCaprio ? I really don't think so, neither of them make movies they don't want to make.

Would like to think my ISP would have those guts

[elrous0]

I really would like to believe that American ISP's would have those guts when the (inevitable) day comes. But I'm pretty sure that they'll be falling all over themselves to comply (especially since most of them are owned by big media companies like Time Warner and Comcast).

Only practical solution?

[DickBreath]

> claims that blocking The Pirate Bay is the only practical solution to slow down piracy,

That supposes that there is a solution period which can slow down piracy.

Maybe they ought to try competing. Give people what they want: digital content, at a reasonable price, that they can own (like an 8-track, vinyl or wax cylinder) and listen to whenever they want on any of their devices (gramaphone, victrolla, car 8-track, etc).

Re:Only practical solution?

[PhilHibbs]

Give people what they want: digital content, at a reasonable price, that they can own (like an 8-track, vinyl or wax cylinder) and listen to whenever they want on any of their devices (gramaphone, victrolla, car 8-track, etc).

That's some crazy advanced technology, that allows you to own a copy and not just pay for a licence! Are you sure any of it is possible?

Such a slippery slope.

[commo1]

The ISPs rightly refuse... if this is what they're blocking this week, what will it be next and where will they be taking orders from?

One (or more) of the 'agencies' of the U.S.A.? Interpol? Local law enforcement? The PTA?

Re:Such a slippery slope.

[Anonymous Coward]

The PTA?

PETA?

Re:Such a slippery slope.

[ultranova]

Well, Finland does have a state-mandated police-provided blocklist, supposedly to fight child porn, which also blocks sites that point out that most of the sites on the list have nothing to do with child porn.

Re:Such a slippery slope.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all ISPs refuse. Eircom is the only Irish ISP to agree to block TPB, and it's yet another reason why I'll never be an Eircom customer.

Re:Such a slippery slope.

[tapanitarvainen]

Well, Finland does have a state-mandated police-provided blocklist, supposedly to fight child porn, which also blocks sites that point out that most of the sites on the list have nothing to do with child porn.

Fortunately using it isn't mandatory - ISPs are free to ignore it (some do, including mine) or provide it to their customers as an optional service (most of them do that, some make as opt-in, some as opt-out). I don't think any of them enforces it on their customers any more.

Re:Such a slippery slope.

[Hyperhaplo]

Yeah, try telling that to the major Australian ISPs - Telstra and Optus

Today 'the interpol's list of naught sites' ... tomorrow... ?

Re:Such a slippery slope.

[Tim C]

Here in the UK at least, a PTA is a Parent Teacher Association.

Can't give in to blackmail.

[Aceticon]

Blocking access to a specific site on demand from a specific interest group just opens up a huge can of worms. You do it for one interest group and next you know, everybody and their cat is demanding you do the same for them.

After all, if one group can demand it in order to defend their business model, then certainly other owners of IP can too. For example if somebody reposts a post of mine (of which I automatically own the copyright) in part or in whole, they're breaking my copyright - I think I need to request that access is blocked to every proxy in the planet from Finand.

Then there's the whole "morality" groups - how about, say, muslim groups demanding that access to sites of newspapers critical of Islam is blocked, pro-democracy groups demanding blocking of critical sites, anti-democracy groups demanding blocking of pro-democracy sites, misguided animal-rights groups demanding blocking of access to bonsai-cats and more.
After all, as the argument would go, those sites facilitate the spread of defamatory posts and even posts that incite hatred on religious or political grounds (yes, there are places were this is against the law and said law is vaguelly enough written that pretty much everything fits until it comes in front of a court and is proven).

Re:Can't give in to blackmail.

[Barbara, not Barbie]

For example if somebody reposts a post of mine (of which I automatically own the copyright) in part or in whole, they're breaking my copyright.

Just want to point out that you are perpetuating a common misconception - two, actually.

1. Not everything you post is automatically copyrightable.

For example, if you posted "1+1=2", that is not subject to copyright. It is neither original nor creative, as well as being a non-copyrightable fact.

Also, things that are trivial are not copyrightable. Look at the whole linux header files debate.

Then there's this HUGE hole - people think that they can protect an idea by copyright, when copyright doesn't allow it:

(b) In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.

This is why you can't copyright the rules of a game - just the artwork, etc.

2. People can repost your post without your permission under certain circumstances without breaking your copyright.

Fair use is just one example. Libraries and archives are another. In Canada, news media can repost it under section 29.2 of the Canadian Copyright Act without compensation as long as they provide attribution.

Re:Can't give in to blackmail.

[Syberz]

Blocking access to a specific site on demand from a specific interest group just opens up a huge can of worms. You do it for one interest group and next you know, everybody and their cat is demanding you do the same for them.

After all, if one group can demand it in order to defend their business model, then certainly other owners of IP can too. For example if somebody reposts a post of mine (of which I automatically own the copyright) in part or in whole, they're breaking my copyright - I think I need to request that access is blocked to every proxy in the planet from Finand.

Then there's the whole "morality" groups - how about, say, muslim groups demanding that access to sites of newspapers critical of Islam is blocked, pro-democracy groups demanding blocking of critical sites, anti-democracy groups demanding blocking of pro-democracy sites, misguided animal-rights groups demanding blocking of access to bonsai-cats and more. After all, as the argument would go, those sites facilitate the spread of defamatory posts and even posts that incite hatred on religious or political grounds (yes, there are places were this is against the law and said law is vaguelly enough written that pretty much everything fits until it comes in front of a court and is proven).

Come at me bro!

Re:Can't give in to blackmail.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just want to point out that you are perpetuating a common misconception - two, actually.

Just wanted to let you know that you are missing the actual point of his post, which is discussing the flaws inherent in bowing to the interests of private parties, not the off-topic subtleties of copyright law.

Re:Can't give in to blackmail.

[PPH]

ISPs (and other private individuals or organizations) aren't cops. Its not their job to police the Internet, patrol their neighborhood, or apprehend criminals.

Granted, TPB probably doesn't present much of a risk of retaliation. Or perhaps it does. Just look at Wikileaks/Anonymous. If someone wants to play good citizen, fine. But there shouldn't be an obligation placed upon individuals to perform policing functions (This isn't Soviet Russia, Slashdot memes aside), particularly when doing so might place a person or business at financial or physical risk.

All Elisa has to do is to cite the possibility of retaliatory DDoS attacks and that should get them off the hook.

that will fix it

[FudRucker]

just like when Napster was shut down, over a dozen others sprang up to take its place...

Re:that will fix it

[Anonymous Coward]

just like when Napster was shut down, over a dozen others sprang up to take its place...

They're aware.

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/03/23/1930238/Limewire-Being-Sued-For-75-Trillion

They sued every one of them in that lump suit. For all of the money.

Exactly the same thing happened in Holland

[dingen]

Dutch music & movie trade association BREIN won a lawsuit against The Piratebay in 2009 (it was covered onSlashdot). When it became clear The Piratebay wouldn't actively block Dutch users, BREIN started to sue Dutch ISP's, but none of them caved. Now, two years later, The Piratebay is still available through all Dutch ISP's, despite all of the lawsuits.

Don't understand how TPB domain survives...

[patniemeyer]

With years of fighting around the ISPs, hosting, and blocking of TPB can someone tell me how it is that the domain name has not just been seized? Haven't other names been grabbed / taken down for more specious reasons?

I understand that taking the domain name would not stop any of this, I am just amazed that they haven't tried...

Re:Don't understand how TPB domain survives...

[Anonymous Coward]

Good thing the guys at TBP didn't register thepiratebay.com

Re:Don't understand how TPB domain survives...

[Anonymous Coward]

What they are doing is legal.

Although it pisses off lawmakers who try and try to figure out a way to make it illegal, they can't actually stop them.

Linking != hosting.

Re:Don't understand how TPB domain survives...

[fafaforza]

But domains of people who are doing "more legit and legal" things -- like a mom and pop bakery -- have been seized in the past. Somehow tpb never was.

Re:Don't understand how TPB domain survives...

[Mashiki]

Ah you and I both know it. Those "mom and pop bakeries" were just fronts for digital smack. They had chairs and dirty ethernet ports where they jacked kids in without even sanitizing.

Agreed...

[Flipstylee]

With all the above comments, red flag me as a terrorist or whatever,
but this country has been on the long road downhill for awhile. (US)

Should the protect-ip act get pushed through, we will start seeing all sorts of funky shit happen,
true in the fact that it will be what we've already seen, build a better lock, create better lockpicks but,
in this cycle every iteration gets nastier....
When you've got money to buy judges to protect you're "potential" profits.

Just ranting here, i'm only one person and have little say, i just like to see other countries stand in the interest of their people is all.

Re:Agreed...

[Sinthet]

I agree with what you say, but the Protect IP act is especially stupid, because it doesn't even build a marginally better lock. Once people heard "free apps", everyone I know was jailbreaking their iPhone, a process most people would describe as at least somewhat technically inclined (This was back before the "Click to Jailbreak" GUI releases).

Anyway, Tor defeats any protection PROTECT IP could give. This act is like leaving a broken lock on a door, and then posting a sticky note on top of it telling people not to pick it.

I too, however, am very happy that this Finnish company is standing up for freedom. Once you start filtering, you open a huge can of liability worms. Not to mention, I guarentee someone would register thepiratebay.fi (or whatever Finland's domain is), which downloaded .torrent files from TPB and indexed them for Finnish users.

more fear, less communicaton, life0cide continues

[Anonymous Coward]

how are the unmentionable weapons peddlers surviving in these times of worldwide sufferage? the royals? our self appointed murderous neogod rulers? all better than ok, thank..... us. their stipends/egos/disguises are secure, so we'll all be ok/not killed by mistaken changes in the weather, being one of the unchosen 'too many' of us, etc...?

truth telling & disarming are the only mathematically & spiritually correct options. read the teepeeleaks etchings. see you there?

Re:Shut them down

[sparkz]

http://releases.ubuntu.com/11.04/ubuntu-11.04-desktop-amd64.iso.torrent http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/torrents/Fedora-15-x86_64-Live-KDE.torrent ... I could go on...

Re:Shut them down

[Anonymous Coward]

See? Pirated copies of Ubuntu and Fedora. This bullshit needs to stop.

Re:Would like to think my ISP would have those gut

[alex67500]

I honestly believe that the only result of blocking this address would result in more and more users of Tor (or the like).

I notice the censorship tag, but....

[Anonymous Coward]

... can anyone point to enough non-contrived examples of pirate bay being used to distribute anything entirely legitimately that it can be confidently stated that there actually was ever any substantial non-infringing use?

The actual problem with the strategy of blocking such websites, of course... is that for every one that they block, at least 3 more will pop up to replace it.

Re:Shut them down

[realityimpaired]

Did you hear that whooshing sound? He was being facetious, knowing his audience already knows of many legitimate uses for torrenting that have nothing to do with piracy, and was just waiting for some pedant to point one of them out. :) (and hey, it was either somebody talking about a Linux distro, or some WoW player pointing out that they get their updates through torrents)

To play devil's advocate though, most of the legitimate torrent users run their own tracker, rather than using a centralized tracker like TPB, specifically because of the not-so-legitimate uses that allegedly happen there.... :)

Re:Shut them down

[zeroshade]

Oh you silly trolls....

some will point to IP at this point...

[justforgetme]

But I'm not one of those.

To be honest I really never understood how it has become to be the accepted way, to pay people for their past services. So you want to be an ubercool gazillionaire? very well provide a constant high value service to people and get paid high amounts for it but don't go asking everyone for money because you first of all men thought of how to wipe your a** after defecating.

Concerning ownership of digital items (data, to the intelligent people): how could anybody put a price tag on a copy of something that can be copied without any costs keeping in mind that the electricity needed for a file transfer of a .mp3 file could easily be generated with rubber and some wool.

Time Warner doesn't own TWC anymore

[tepples]

especially since most of them are owned by big media companies like Time Warner and Comcast

Comcast I'll grant you; it owns half of NBCUniversal Media. But Time Warner spun out TWC over two years ago.

Re:Time Warner doesn't own TWC anymore

[sjames]

But Time Warner spun out TWC over two years ago.

If two people break up but continue to live in the same house, sleep in the same bed, and finish each other's sentences at social functions they attend together, did they really break up?

I thought...

[justforgetme]

I always thought that it was a prerequisite of the businessman profession to have your balls cut of...
How come the guy who runs Elisa still has them?

Re:I thought...

[Bucky24]

Because he's not American I think....

Even Tetris?

[tepples]

This is why you can't copyright the rules of a game - just the artwork, etc.

So what's the most cost-effective way to defend oneself when sued by a company that claims copyright in the rules of a game?

Re:Even Tetris?

[Barbara, not Barbie]

Yes, even the rules to Tetris are not copyrighted.

The government says as much: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author's expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.

Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable.

If your game includes any written element, such as instructions or directions, the Copyright Office recommends that you apply to register it as a literary work. Doing so will allow you to register all copyrightable parts of the game, including any pictorial elements. When the copyrightable elements of the game consist predominantly of pictorial matter, you should apply to register it as a work of the visual arts.

The deposit requirements will vary, depending on whether the work has been published at the time of registration. If the game is published, the proper deposit is one complete copy of the work. If, however, the game is published in a box larger than 12" x 24" x 6" (or a total of 1,728 cubic inches) then identifying material must be submitted in lieu of the entire game. (See âoeidentifying materialâ below.) If the game is published and contains fewer than three threedimensional elements, then identifying material for those parts must be submitted in lieu of those parts. If the game is unpublished, either one copy of the game or identifying material should be deposited.

Identifying material deposited to represent the game or its three-dimensional parts usually consists of photographs, photostats, slides, drawings, or other two-dimensional representations of the work. The identifying material should include as many pieces as necessary to show the entire copyrightable content of the work, including the copyright notice if it appears on the work. All pieces of identifying material other than transparencies must be no less than 3" x 3" in size, and not more than 9" x 12", but preferably 8" x 10". At least one piece of identifying material must, on its front, back, or mount, indicate the title of the work and an exact measurement of one or more dimensions of the work.

FL-108, Reviewed November 2010

U.S. Copyright Office
101 Independence Ave. S.E.
Washington, D.C. 20559-6000
(202) 707-3000

Revised: 22-Dec-2010

Most people don't know the law, so they fold when they get the C&D.

So you're free to make your own version of Risk or Tetris - but when you write up the rules, you have to use your own words to describe them - you can't just cut-n-pasta the original rules. The rules aren't protected - only their physical expression is (font, layout, artwork).

People are surprised that there's no copyright to a game name or movie title - but that's why you can see 3-4 movies with the same name and different decades at IMDB, and there's no copyright infringement.

Re:Even Tetris?

[qbast]

Blow up company's HQ, then track down and shoot any lawyer still alive.

Re:Even Tetris?

[tepples]

Most people don't know the law, so they fold when they get the C&D.

That and the fact that The Tetris Company has occasionally been seen to escalate the issue to a lawsuit in federal court.

Re:Even Tetris?

[Barbara, not Barbie]

1. Send copy of the law to the company, along with a demand for the particulars of the legal theory of how, in light of the law, you are infringing;
2. Let them sue;
3. Find others they've threatened
3. Since they knew the lawsuit was invalid, go for special damages in a class action.

Re:Even Tetris?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, TTC is pretty bastard about stuff like that. Arika (from the popular Tetris: The Grandmaster series) along with TTC has taken down many many gameplay videos from anything tetris-like on youtube, killed all the Tetris clones a while back from the Android marketplace. Kind of sad, but in a way there are very very few Tetris clones that are "good." Considering most either have the "NES Bug" (impossible to play after a certian level because the tetrominos cannot reach the edges of the playing field before the last 2-3 rows at the bottom), have only clockwise rotation, give more weight to t-spins than actual Tetrises, or other such mishaps. Though some of the so-called "Tetris Guidelines" set by TTC have made fan of the game cringe, namely the "infinite spin" system which takes a lot of the skill out of the game. So, I am torn to like or dis-like TTC, considering they want a consistent experience across devices, yet they made the game more easy to attract more players whereas I prefer games like T:GM/Heboris.

Re:Even Tetris?

[tepples]

in a way there are very very few Tetris clones that are "good." Considering most either have the "NES Bug" (impossible to play after a certian level because the tetrominos cannot reach the edges of the playing field before the last 2-3 rows at the bottom)

Does LJ65 for NES have the "NES bug"?

Re:Even Tetris?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do keep in mind they can always have a trademark for the game title, copyright on the game story, and possible patents for any "innovative" aspect of the game. So be careful of using terms that are found in the original's game story, trademarked words or phrases, and special devices from the original that might be part of a patent.

Those dirty, filthy pirates must be stopped!!

[countertrolling]

They are bankrupting Hollywood

Re:Shut them down

[Sparx139]

I think that one might have been a joke. I know I got a chuckle from it

No, You missed the point.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not everyone lives in the US! listing a service only available to people within the US is a good example of how the industry is not being reasonable

Other Finnish ISP's not blocking either

[cbope]

I'm on another equally large Finnish ISP (Sonera), and there is no blockage of TPB. I've not heard of any ISP's here blocking content, other than the failed attempt at a black list for child porn sites a few years ago.

Re:Other Finnish ISP's not blocking either

[Anonymous Coward]

Interestingly, in Denmark, every single ISP blocks TPB. I think it's interesting given how all Scandinavian countries tend to be mentally lumped together by most people and, yet, swedes and finns seem to have much bigger balls than danes. Oh well...

Wow, Elisa? Really?

[blind biker]

Elisa has been one of the less benevolent companies here in Finland. Of all the telcos/providers, I'd have thought that they would fold the fastest to the demands of Big Media. But no, they did not!? WTF, if Elisa stands its ground, I am pretty sure all other telcos/providers will, too.

As disgusted as I feel for saying this, I still must: well done Elisa, you make me proud for being a Finn.

Re:Wow, Elisa? Really?

[treeves]

Elisa says, "How does that make you feel?"

Re:Wow, Elisa? Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Elisa has been one of the less benevolent companies here in Finland... I'd have thought that they would fold the fastest...

They fight it because they came to the conclusion that it would cost them money to be uncompensated compliance enforcers. If Big Media paid Big Money for ISPs to play whack-a-pirate then they'd take the 20 pieces of silver, just like any other for-profit company.

Justice is expensive

[tepples]

The first two steps you listed require money to hire competent legal counsel, which a lot of individual software developers don't have.

Re:Justice is expensive

[Barbara, not Barbie]

You can do the first two steps yourself.

Once you receive the initial notice, demand that they state the legal theory behind your alleged infringement. They're going to have to at some point anyway.

They probably won't back down right away, but shining light into the dirty cracks is a good thing. It makes the cockroaches^Wcopyright trolls scoot around all over the place, so they're more likely to make a mistake and you can stomp on them.

It takes years for a case to make its way through the courts - let them try to get an injunction first if they're serious. The most likely event is they'll ignore you instead of continuing, once they realize that you know the law is on your side.

And if they continue, you introduce them to Ms. Barbara Streisand Effect. Worked out okay in the end for the whole Righthaven mess :-)

Re:Justice is expensive

[Bucky24]

It takes years for a case to make its way through the courts

As parent said, that would be very expensive for an independent software developer.

Music fans, police yourselves

[GodfatherofSoul]

I don't even listen to music that much, but I feel compelled to buy CDs to help out musicians in this era of accepted free downloading/piracy/stealing or whatever you want to call it. If music fans would contribute just something to purchasing what you listen to, it would help. And, I don't mean what you think is "good" enough to warrant your money, because we all know that equates to nothing in practice. Yeah, the corporate side of the business is run by a bunch of shysters, but until that problem is fixed shutting down the revenue stream hurts the artists as well.

That's why patents have been twisted

[Anonymous Coward]

"This is why you can't copyright the rules of a game - just the artwork, etc."

Actually, "Method Patents" are being used for this purpose. Our entire "Intellectual Property" system is screwed up. There are clear examples of abuses of:

Copyrights
Patents
Trademarks
Trade Secrets

Re:Shut them down

[mark-t]

"To play devil's advocate though, most of the legitimate torrent users run their own tracker, rather than using a centralized tracker like TPB, specifically because of the not-so-legitimate uses that allegedly happen there.... :)"

That's actually one hell of a good argument, IMO... one that I have never seen any sort of reasonable response to that still offers any justification for such websites to continue to exist.

Re:Shut them down

[mark-t]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. The notion that they have never been used for anything but piracy is not only provably false, but can't even be shown to be a remotely accurate generalization of the underlying purpose of bittorrent. There are plenty of legitimate cases of content being distributed by bittorrent, not because somebody is trying to simply show that legal use is possible, but because bittorrent happens to be the most efficient file transfer protocol that has been invented so far.

mp3 limits & downloading music

[Artemis3]

Hmm, no not really. It is easy to find samples where the mp3 codec will fail (produce audible enough artifact), even at 320kbps. In that regard, other lossy formats such as ogg vorbis fare much better (if even because it doesn't have that 320kbps ceiling limit, and some more tricks).

Of course, a lossless format such as flac makes sure a 44.1khz@16bit CD stays the same, for about half the size. If you compared that to 96khz/24bit audio then your comment would apply.

But, lossy can decode to higher bitrate, and that helps a tiny little bit (no puns :)). Also higher samplerates makes it easier to do filters (lowpass). Humans can't hear above 20khz (remember you need twice to reproduce, ie. 40Khz samplerate) and thats where most lowpass filters start in CDs.

As for downloading songs, try http://www.jamendo.com/
The Recording Industry (and its slavery) is obsolete.

The ISP view

[GC]

As someone who has worked for an ISP this comes as no surprise.

At the end of the day we know what the customers want - they want free films, free music and pirated software. The Pirate Bay provides the means to locate such stuff.

While the most prolific users are a problem, ISPs provide access to this medium - if we block the P2P sharing sites then our customers will go elsewhere, and in a market which is highly competitive we cannot afford to lose such a large section of our market.

Music prices are too high

[Anonymous Coward]

The Napster-like monthly service would have jumped off great on iTunes if they weren't so ridiculously priced. $1 per song? Imagine that as a movie...

$1 per 3-5 minutes each movie would be a $24-40 movie. That's just the audio. Add video and HOLY CRAP.

Industry pricing standards need to be fixed before piracy will end.

Where are you from, can I move to that nirvana?

[IBitOBear]

I got no (practical) options for my broadband here just 10 miles outside of Seattle WA.

What is this "competition" thing I keep hearing about? Where do I go to get _that_?

Maybe it's something they have in free countries, but I live in the U.S.A. where all the meaningful markets are closed, and most of the menaingless ones are soon tto follow under the boot-heels of NPEs.

Re:Shut them down

[Anonymous Coward]

Learn how to spell "faggot," faggot.

Re:Shut them down

[Anonymous Coward]

Now this, friends, is a troll