LulzSec Target the Sun After Phone Hacking Scandal

nk497 writes "LulzSec have come out of retirement to target Rupert Murdoch's News International, hacking the website of The Sun, redirecting it first to a spoofed page reporting his death and then to Lulz's Twitter feed. 'The Sun's homepage now redirects to the Murdoch death story on the recently-owned New Times website,' the hackers said via Twitter. 'Can you spell success, gentlemen?' The hackers also started to post email addresses and passwords they claimed were from Sun staff, and said to have accessed a mail server at now-defunct News of the World."

Comments

Ob. Mr. Burns

[PCM2]

"Since the beginning of time, man has yearned to destroy the Sun."

Re:Ob. Mr. Burns

[sgbett]

Ob. Nik Kershaw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqqXMXpyAkE

Re:Ob. Mr. Burns

[Forty Two Tenfold]

You can't see The Sun, because this.

Re:Ob. Mr. Burns

[interkin3tic]

They're not going to destroy it, they're going to use a denial-of-service attack: they're going to stand over people who are at the beach sunbathing.

Personally I think it's just an excuse to leer at women in bikinis.

Is this what it has come down to?

[McFortner]

So, because they did something ethically wrong and against the law it's OK to do the same to them? I thought we had gotten beyond the whole "eye for an eye" thing.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Anonymous Coward]

They're black hats, it's what they do. When some kid at school is acting like a total dipshit to everyone else and the authorities don't care, the solution is not to ask him politely to stop. The solution is to give him a black eye, then ask, then give him another if he refuses.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[FyRE666]

I fail to see how adding a redirect to their homepage and posting some phone numbers is on par with hacking a dead girl's phone and deleting her voicemail. Plus all the other reprehensible shenanigans the NotW staff were up to (and if they were doing it, there's a fair chance other areas of the empire were doing the same.)

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Groo Wanderer]

When you have bought your way out of governmental oversight and any possibility of legal repercussions, how else does one get punished for flagrant illegal behaviour. What you are seeing is the people fighting back against a system that has been thoroughly co-opted by those with more resources. It is classic guerrilla warfare, and more power to Lulzsec for doing it.

It also made me smile, so win/win.

            -Charlie

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[causality]

So, because they did something ethically wrong and against the law it's OK to do the same to them? I thought we had gotten beyond the whole "eye for an eye" thing.

Until we decide that corporations should be second- and third-class citizens compared to breathing human beings, you can expect more of the same.

It's a serious mistake to blame vigilantes as though they happen in a vacuum. That kind of thinking has been tried for a very long time now and it has gotten us absolutely nowhere. It doesn't solve anything. Vigilanteism is the least of things it fails to address. It doesn't change anything. It provides more of the same problems we've always had.

Instead you need to look at the conditions of the environment, the steps that were taken to make them that way, and how they bred the desire to do such things. That's if you are actually interested in really working towards a solution for what you perceive as a problem, so interested in fact that you're willing to put aside the gratification of condemnation and try something that might work.

The root of the problem is that a corporation can do things that would cause any individual person to suffer some serious prison time. The equivalent of "prison time" for a corporation would be to freeze their assets and stop them from doing any business whatsoever for a set period of time. You may say "okay Causality but what about the rank-and-file workers who would be financially harmed by this?" To that I say, maybe that would make people more reluctant to work for known assholes like Rupert Murdoch and maybe that would be a good thing for everyone.

Just as a loan officer has to charge higher fees for risky loans, let Murdoch pay his employees above the standard rate to compensate them for the risk that his asshattery might get them shut down. That would be more like making corporations pay some of the social costs their tactics inflict on the world around them.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Anonymous Coward]

When the government ceases to mete out justice this is what happens. Get over it. If you don't like it please fix the governments so we don't need to do this ourselves.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[causality]

They're black hats, it's what they do. When some kid at school is acting like a total dipshit to everyone else and the authorities don't care, the solution is not to ask him politely to stop. The solution is to give him a black eye, then ask, then give him another if he refuses.

While I would place emphasis on the "authorities don't care" part, you're absolutely right. There are people with whom you cannot reason. In fact, they hate reason because reason would tell them to change their ways and they're addicted to the gratification and feeling of superiority they obtain from being that way. That kind of egomania is the only sort of (pathetic) life they have.

It is not your fault if someone will not cherish reason. That is their decision; let them reap what they sow. It does not make you a bad person to do what is necessary (but no more) to handle someone like that. It is in accordance with how they have chosen to live. In the case of a bully like in your example, it may in fact be a turning point in life that will end up being the best thing that ever happened to them. It would amount to giving him, albeit a harder way, the correction and guidance that his parents (or more likely, parent) so thoroughly failed to deliver.

After doing what needs to be done, then there is opportunity to take the high road and have an attitude of "sorry it came to this, but you had it coming." Gloating and being glad it happened would just make you a bigger bully who will eventually run into one who is bigger still. That path won't reform anyone. So yes, you're absolutely right but it has to come from a certain level of understanding. The real mistake is to coddle a person like that out of some misguided sympathy (what the unwise think is compassion) because they interpret it as weakness, as submission, and they'd be right.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[WrongSizeGlass]

Oh my bad, police say the death of the whistleblower wasnt suspicious, he probably died of natural causes....

Revenge is a natural cause of death, isn't it?

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[lattyware]

This is because of the phone hacking thing? I just thought this was because reading The Sun is roughly equivalent to torture.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[causality]

Not in the US where those rednecks still have barbaric punishments like the death penalty for being retarded.

Yeah yeah, I know I'm replying to a troll, but...

He isn't on death row for being retarded. Saying that makes me question your mental abilities. He's on death row for murdering a 17-year-old. The fact that his IQ is 68 doesn't make the victim any less dead or his family any less bereaved at having to bury their child.

There are good arguments against the death penalty. The fact that so many people on death row turned out to be innocent (i.e. because of DNA evidence) is one of the most rational. After all, you can release someone who is in prison but you can't raise the dead. The logic here is quite straightforward. However, your emotional rhetoric and willingness to distort truth as you have done is only going to weaken your position.

There are no shortcuts to actually making a solid case about a worthy subject. No, you haven't discovered the first.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Idbar]

While it makes me smile too. I just hope this doesn't give an excuse to deflect the problem, and consume more resources tracking the LulzSec group instead of proper investigation of the actual News Corp.

I mean, it's not that they aren't trying to look like the victims instead of the perpetrators

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Xtravar]

He's mistaking "elected" with "electrocuted". Yes, they elect retards in Texas.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[scubamage]

...a natural cause of death best served cold!

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[causality]

When the government ceases to mete out justice this is what happens. Get over it. If you don't like it please fix the governments so we don't need to do this ourselves.

Thank you, kind sir or madam, whoever the anonymous figure may be. To me, what you say is the most intuitive thing in the world but for some it is a hard doctrine. They are stuck in a crime-and-punishment model that fails to account for why certain crimes happen in the first place. It's the same reason we have a War on Drugs instead of an expectation of responsible use.

I'm trying to model and expound this kind of understanding. I'm trying to contribute such that the conversation addresses the higher levels of how and why these things manifest, rather than the low level of how undesirable they might be. Therefore, it's nice to hear from someone else who understands this.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[scubamage]

They killed a girl? I thought they just hacked her phone? Not in any way defending News Corp, they deserved to be keelhauled.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would say it is more ethical to act on justice/mischief than greed/pursuit of power.
I found it quite satisfying to hear what had happened. Especially when two senior police officials have resigned over this issue. Obviously law enforcement has failed in this instance and I see nothing wrong with what lulzsec did.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[digitig]

Then when they get rid of him, they will find everything is just the same as it was, because the problem isn't Murdoch, it's the system that rewards him for doing what he does.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[causality]

Well argued, and good points. I'm assuming you studied debate? You never really put him down, only told him how to strengthen his position for a rebut. Good post. I like it.

Just about everything I know about argumentation is from paying attention and observing those who were more skilled than I. I have never formally studied it, other than thumbing through the book Art of Deception, but my main interest in that book was to better understand rhetoric and how it is used to deceive. The book is not very useful for those who view argumentation as a way to get closer to truth. The book is written for those who think a debate is a contest that they must win at all costs (I suppose to score a point or impress an audience or some other frivolous thing) no matter how wrong they may be. There are people like that and it is well to understand how they think.

Otherwise... Most of the time, formal study turns a living art into a dead thing to be dissected. I'd much rather have an intuitive practical understanding. The difference is, someone who only knows a thing from formal study is confused and uncertain when confronted with a new situation for which they do not have a battery of predetermined answers. I greatly prefer a fluid, dynamic, principled understanding. That kind of understanding is truly my own.

If I have the use of reason it is because I truly love reason. The flaws in the GP's post are therefore plain to me, with or without instruction.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[CheShACat]

Well, no, firstly Lulzsec will have done it "for the lulz" not for "an eye for an eye". They also had beef against The Sun after the Ryan Cleary arrest, and The Sun's appaling coverage of it. Any other reason one might throw into the mix is just gravy.

As a viewer, one can find the whole episode deliciously ironic without needing to take either side of the moral argument.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[LordLimecat]

For those who had forgotten, LulzSec is also responsible for hacking such monsters as Nintendo, Sega, and Eve Online.

So while there is a kind of poetic justice to NotW getting hacked, forgive me if Im still anticipating LulzSec getting "vanned".

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Golddess]

My personal feelings on the death penalty aside...

O rly. There's another person executed by the USAsian rednecks for murdering another person.

FTFY.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[traindirector]

For those who had forgotten, LulzSec is also responsible for hacking such monsters as [...] Sega [...]

Not true! They said Sega must be defended!

That is, if the organization's not a false flag.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[KahabutDieDrake]

First, who is we? Second, when did we (see previous) get over the whole Eye for an Eye thing? US courts are chock full of "eye for an eye". Not just in lawsuits, but in the law itself. For all intents and purposes, vast tracks of US law essentially say "If ACTOR does ACTION then YOUGETMONEYX" Sorry if my pseudo code sucks. Obviously that's a gross over simplification, but we all know if I start quoting ACTUAL law people will get bored and wander off. tl:dr I'm not trying to say that LulzSec (or anyone else) has moral ground to stand on, just that our LAW doesn't reflect your observation. (at least not here in the USA) There are a lot of people out there that think that LulzSec is doing some good. They are wrong, but that never stopped anyone.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[cheekyjohnson]

"Ethically wrong"? What is that and who gets to define what it is?

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[grcumb]

Then when they get rid of him, they will find everything is just the same as it was, because the problem isn't Murdoch, it's the system that rewards him for doing what he does.

Oh, the problem very definitely is Murdoch, in this case. And he very definitely does deserve to be punished, whether by the authorities or by society at large or by some vigilantistic element thereof - or all of the above, for that matter. Ignoring the law for the moment, there is such a concept as justice, and this is one man who deserves a large helping of it.

The fact that society tends to reward sociopathic behaviour is, I agree, a relevant and abiding issue, but we shouldn't let that get in the way of taking down one of the most insidious influences in modern politics.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Anonymous Coward]

So, because they did something ethically wrong and against the law it's OK to do the same to them? I thought we had gotten beyond the whole "eye for an eye" thing.

You can take your statement and direct it at the whistle-blower who exposed all this that was suddenly found dead in his home today. He was found dead from "unknown causes, but nothing suspicious" according to local, and obviously bribed, authorities.

It's a shame that there's no verifiably safe websites where one can leak information anonymously. Instead, this man ended up dead, probably because his name is attached to a global scandal of worldwide police bribery. And why? Because he dared to tell people the truth about what was really going on.

Remember this when the next topic about Assange or the boys at AnonOps/LulzSec comes up and you moral types think about bashing them.

Here's the dead man's wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Hoare

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[kiwimate]

It's intuitive to those who possess no self control. There's no reason to model and expound it (and everything else you pontificated on in your pretentious nonsense); it's perfectly well understood under the simple term "vigilantism".

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[wagnerrp]

Oh come on... You issue a life sentence for punishment, you issue the death penalty because the world is a better place without them. Did you read that article. The guy robbed a restaurant, tied up the manager, tortured her with a knife, and then disemboweled her. That is fucked up. Retarded or not, you just don't do shit like that.

People don't deserve the death penalty. Society deserves to rid themselves of people through the death penalty.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[wagnerrp]

My personal feelings on the death penalty aside...

O rly. There's another person executed by the USAsian rednecks for torturing and disemboweling another person.

Fixed that for you.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[spongman]

mpu

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[scubamage]

I've seen two bullies change their ways. One who attacked me, got knocked down, and I promptly stomped on his kidneys for about 30 seconds. Apparently peeing blood for a few weeks really takes the fight out of you. The other bully was insulting a friend of mine who had tremors (has an inoperable tumor on his brainstem that will one day kill him). My friend threw him into an open locker, shattering his collar bone. So they can change their ways. It just usually involves getting hurt beyond the usual "lost a fight" injuries. Note I went to a small country school, and most of the time if the violence was against a known bully the teachers would just walk away until karma had been doled out.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[plague911]

Your logic is wrong its not "So, because they did something ethically wrong and against the law it's OK to do the same to them? " its ... " Because they did something ethically wrong and against the law it's OK to punish them if they law failed to do so" If someone does something unspeakably horrible to a member of your family and legally gets away with it, it is more than morally justifiable to extract your pound of flesh. Now I certainty am not recommending killing anyone in this situation, however for the gross misconduct news corp has committed on sooo many occasions the organization should be proverbially (and possibly actually) burned to the ground. Everyone associated with the firm should permanently have their resumes tarnished with the name "news corp" and thus hopefully never be able to find work within journalism ever again.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[dontbgay]

So, in your infinite wisdom, what is the root cause of this vigilantism? Do you think they have no just cause? Especially after knowing this company is not above paying off officials to get out of trouble and avoid scrutiny, how can you believe this is going to be handled above board and professionally?

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[phantomfive]

. The equivalent of "prison time" for a corporation would be to freeze their assets and stop them from doing any business whatsoever for a set period of time. You may say "okay Causality but what about the rank-and-file workers who would be financially harmed by this?"

No, I would say, the people responsible should suffer, not a company that is a non-sentient being. You seem to have a weird idea of what a corporation is. People have already been arrested for the hacking scandal, which is good. Rupert himself may not be, but sometimes guilty people go free. It happens.

Corporations are not first-class citizens in any legal jurisdiction I know of. 'Corporate personhood' is a legal metaphor that you, and others, have vastly misunderstood.

Imagine if the corporation got punished for all crimes that a person did in the name of the corporation: then I could start a corporation, rob a bank in the name of the corporation, and the corporation would be punished. That would be idiotic. Furthermore, it would be making a corporation more of a person than it is now, which you claim to oppose.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[brim4brim]

An eye for an eye is the foundation of the entire justice system. You did something wrong so you must be suitably punished for that crime. Just because it is served with years behind bars rather than actually harming the person in the same way does not mean it is not an eye for an eye.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Tolkien]

Exactly, AC GP post is pointing out what I've been saying for a long time. Despite what many people say, many issues in the world reached the "ammo" part of the "soap, ballot, jury, ammo box" sequence a long time ago. This is the form it has taken. I say it's about damned time.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[quickgold192]

I thought we had gotten beyond the whole "eye for an eye" thing.

Really?? You did?

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[raedeon]

Do you have a better way of dealing with the retarded? I think we should feed them to various wildlife that are in danger such as Polar Bears

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[arose]

Whether he is executed or not doesn't make the victim any less dead.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[wagnerrp]

just because someone is a retard that they deserve to be executed.

What? You're twisting things around. You make it sound like I have something against the mentally handicapped, and I want to round them all up and gas them like some eugenicist. Stop trying to redirect the argument.

Do you know what disemboweling is? It means that after cutting the manager up, he sliced her stomach open, deep enough that her intestines and other internal organs fell out. There is something very important missing in anyone can do such a thing, whether they have a 50 or 150 IQ. There is a point at which the crime is so heinous, insanity or retardation is not a sufficient excuse for ones actions.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Anonymous Coward]

If a bully hasn't realized the error of their ways it's only because you haven't hit them back hard enough yet.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[whoever57]

People don't deserve the death penalty. Society deserves to rid themselves of people through the death penalty.

Society can "rid themselves" of such people by locking them up for the rest of their lives. Killing them is just a form of revenge that brutalizes society and costs more than killing them. It's neither humane, ethical, nor efficient.

Furthermore, with the murder rate much higher in the USA than other westernized societies, it doesn't appear to be effective as a deterrent (and would anything be a deterrent to someone with such a low IQ?).

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[rsborg]

Corporations are not first-class citizens in any legal jurisdiction I know of. 'Corporate personhood' is a legal metaphor that you, and others, have vastly misunderstood.
 

Really? Have you not read about the Citizens United case, that effectively gives Corporations the freedom of speech (and by neoliberal accounting, freedom of bribery)?

Imagine if the corporation got punished for all crimes that a person did in the name of the corporation: then I could start a corporation, rob a bank in the name of the corporation, and the corporation would be punished. That would be idiotic. Furthermore, it would be making a corporation more of a person than it is now, which you claim to oppose.

Let's extend your metaphor and say that the corporation hired someone to commit some crime. Should the corporation go unpunished? Sure the crimedoer will catch jail time if (s)he is caught, but the one who made the decision to go ahead with the theft should also get punished. Right now, with the corporate veil this hardly ever pursued... plus given Corporations often have lots of money and live forever, they could literally buy their freedom or push the punishment far enough in the future to avoid real consequences.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[phantomfive]

Really? Have you not read about the Citizens United case, that effectively gives Corporations the freedom of speech (and by neoliberal accounting, freedom of bribery)?

You clearly don't understand it. Whoever is giving you information is leading you astray.

but the one who made the decision to go ahead with the theft should also get punished.

Yes, what universe do you live in where this doesn't happen? Conspiracy to commit crime is generally considered crime.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[shutdown -p now]

You do realize that the people who did this call themselves LulzSec for a reason, do you?

Also I didn't see anything said about this being OK. It's still funny, though.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[definate]

I agree. Though, I'd add, you've said "deleting her voicemail", and while that's technically true, what it really was, was "tampering with evidence in a missing persons/murder investigation".

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Anonymus]

I agree that it's sad, but when all the normal channels (the justice system) completely ignore any wrongdoing by the powerful, what do you expect? Vigilante justice against powerful people (or corporations) who are otherwise untouchable is just going to get worse over time.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[samjam]

Society was clearly already brutal.

Society is brutal through having such members and is brutal in removing such members.

Seems reasonable to me.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[tehcyder]

well they 'virtually' killed murdoch while the guy that outed news of the world got the same treatment, without the virtual that is. Oh my bad, police say the death of the whistleblower wasnt suspicious, he probably died of natural causes....

As long as we have the police's word for it, who could possibly argue?

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[samjam]

As I see it Murdoch's gang are being punished by the sort of lawless society that they supported by their behaviour.

It's not "right" but we don't feel like directing quite so many resources quite to quickly to protect them as we might othewise do.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[tehcyder]

just because someone is a retard that they deserve to be executed.

What? You're twisting things around. You make it sound like I have something against the mentally handicapped, and I want to round them all up and gas them like some eugenicist. Stop trying to redirect the argument.

Do you know what disemboweling is? It means that after cutting the manager up, he sliced her stomach open, deep enough that her intestines and other internal organs fell out. There is something very important missing in anyone can do such a thing, whether they have a 50 or 150 IQ. There is a point at which the crime is so heinous, insanity or retardation is not a sufficient excuse for ones actions.

No, you clearly have no idea how what criminal responsibility means. If a nine year old child tortures another kid to death, you can't convict them of murderor any other crime (in the UK). Similarly, if a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic decapitates a stranger because they think they're an alien bounty hunter, if they are judged to be insane they won't face criminal charges but will be ordered to be held in some sort of secure psychiatric unit.

What you can't say is "well because what that nine year old did was so particularly horrible, we'll make an exemption in his case and prosecute him for murder". We had this issue with the Jamie Bulger murder, the public was outraged that the two killers "got away with it" because they weren't ten.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[improfane]

If you think LulzSec is wrong, then you don't really understand the situation.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[mcgrew]

Hacking Sun's servers doesn't come close to deleting messages on a missing person's phone, destroying evidence in a murder investigation, and a myriad of other evils Murdoch's corporation has done. Meanwhile, Murdoch's not in jail. You would be.

If the Murdochs were in jail I'd agree with you, but when the police will do nothing, I can't fault vigilantes. Hooray, LulSec!

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[mcgrew]

Now THAT'S fantasy. How many people have you known personally who have ever been shot or have shot anyone aside from as a soldier? Shut off that TV, son. The GP was almost certainly telling the truth; I had a similar experience in the 7th grade. A bully picked on me for two months and I snapped, bloodied his nose, and pummelled him mercilessly. He never bothered me after that -- and neither did anybody else.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[scubamage]

Sadly not fictional. The first bully never picked on me again, however he still caused trouble so I suppose he didn't change his ways. He ended up getting into another fight where he smashed a plate in the lunch room. The other kid grabbed a shard and stabbed him in the arm. After the fight both were expelled. He never screwed with me again. The second bully transferred to a new school where he got arrested for attempted arson when he set a bathroom garbage can on fire. Believe it if you want or not. I wasn't a "nerd" in school, I skipped as often as possible to help take care of my family's farm since my dad had colorectal cancer and couldn't do a lot of the work. Meh.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[mcgrew]

Someone please mod the parent insightful. The real black hats were already in those servers and already had all the data and were using it maliciously. The door was wide open, LulSec just shined a light on it.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[mcgrew]

Remember that mine explosion that killed two dozen men last year in Virginia after the mine company was repeatedly cited for the very violations that caused the explosion?

Why isn't anyone in prison for negligent homicide for all those deaths? Corporations can and do get away with murder.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[mcgrew]

The "four boxes" are from Heinlein's Star Ship Troopers for those of you who haven't read it.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[mcgrew]

So you condemn him to a painless, humane death when your death will likely be something horrible like cancer, heart disease, Alzheimer's, diabetes, or any of the other nasty ways most of us die?

We're all on death row. Most of us will be tortured to death; few die peacefully in their sleep. I say let him rot in prison until God takes him. Let him have the same horrible death you are likely to suffer.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[mcgrew]

You're feeding a troll. Please stop.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[mcgrew]

I don't have anyone on my foes list, but you may be the first, asshole. My oldest daughter was born with the umbilical cord around her neck and the resultant brain damage gives her an IQ of 65. She's 26, the sweetest thing you'll never meet, and wouldn't harm anyone. You would kill my daughter because of a disability no one has control of? If anybody deserves death it's heartless fucking animals like you.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[gijoel]

So what you're saying is some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efHCdKb5UWc

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[AmiMoJo]

There are people with whom you cannot reason. In fact, they hate reason because reason would tell them to change their ways and they're addicted to the gratification and feeling of superiority they obtain from being that way.

History says otherwise. Look at Western European societies that gone from being irrational and god fearing to secular and reasonable. The US seems to be about half way there and some Muslim countries are starting along that path too.

I don't buy this bullshit that a normal person can be utterly incapable of changing their views, extreme or otherwise. Fighting with Muslims hasn't worked out very well for us, but simply allowing them to see the way we live and how much better it is has. Second generation Muslims living in the UK for the most part have adopted our way of life and generally cosmopolitan outlook, despite attempts by their parents and religious leaders to ingrain Asian culture in them. There are exceptions of course, but the point stands.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[CapuchinSeven]

There is something very important missing in anyone can do such a thing, whether they have a 50 or 150 IQ. There is a point at which the crime is so heinous, insanity or retardation is not a sufficient excuse for ones actions.

In a comment thread about retards, this just became the most retarded thing I've read all year.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[AmiMoJo]

I might be being a bit optimisitic here, but I think there is a chance that the politicians will try to destroy Murdoch now. For decades they have lived in fear of him, but now they have an opportunity to get rid of him. A lot of it depends on the answers he gives at the hearing today, but if what comes out is really bad then there is at least a chance of laws being passed to limit ownership of multiple news outlets.

Fingers crossed. For once the popular view is behind politicians, as demonstrated by the huge number of copies of the NotW that didn't sell.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[delinear]

It's also definitely worth noting that the police had all of the relevant information to uncover this whole scandal at least two years ago (and they knew some of it over five years ago) and yet they did nothing. They even admitted in the official enquiry that their response was severely lacking. If the police aren't doing their job then surely that's precisely the time for vigilantism - they're meant to be protecting us from this kind of crap.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[delinear]

Exactly - in the UK we've already seen this goes to the top of both the government (Cameron being close friends with Brooks et al) and the police (who at the very least failed to properly investigate a crime, even if you rule out outright suppression of facts). When the police, the media and the government all appear to be colluding, what expectation of justice can the people realistically have?

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[olau]

"The solution is to give him a black eye, then ask, then give him another if he refuses."

Just curious, what would should we do afterwards if he refuses? Ran out of eyes, eh?

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[goose-incarnated]

Hey, I'm genuinely sorry to hear that, man :-(

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Atzanteol]

You kick him in the balls.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[delinear]

This is the digital equivalent of throwing eggs at a corrupt politician - people realise it's wrong, but given the context and the silliness of the "crime" in relation to the wrongdoings of the target people can't help but feel a measure of schadenfreude. That's not the same as condoning their actions.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[stealth_finger]

That's executing a guy for murder who happens to be retarded rather than executing him for being retarded like you suggest.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[geminidomino]

No, the point of the phrase in modern usage is that the populace is too distracted with trivialities and complacent with superficial comforts to be bothered with things like civic virtues.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[ioshhdflwuegfh]

[...] I thought we had gotten beyond the whole "eye for an eye" thing.

Funny how your post got modded Insightful with all this ""eye for an eye" thing" thing.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[LordLimecat]

And then released all of the Sony's customer data just to make really really sure that....

wait why did they release some 80million customer records, again?

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[LordLimecat]

One of those civic virtues being a sense of glee at watching big corporations (not all of them faceless entities, either) getting the crap hacked out of them, and tons of customer records spilled out for the world to see?

Yea, thats virtue all right.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[mcgrew]

Thanks, but she leads as happy a life as anyone. Meanwhile her younger sister is "gifted", as they say. Also, raedeon's comment leads me to believe he also has a two digit IQ, say 95 or so, which makes him mentally retarded compared to me and the youngest of my 2 daughters (and probably compared to you as well). So maybe he should do the world a favor and feed himself to the polar bears, since compared to us he's retarded?

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[T.E.D.]

No, I would say, the people responsible should suffer, not a company that is a non-sentient being. You seem to have a weird idea of what a corporation is.

Actually, I'd say the same about you. The entire point of corporations is that the people responsible for the corporation's actions are not personally liable in civil court for the corporation's actions. This is why one of the first things a person does when they get rich (and start getting good financial/legal advice) is incorporate.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[mcgrew]

They got everybody's attention, didn't they? Had they not, nobody would have listened.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[goose-incarnated]

Good to hear :-). If I weren't an atheist I'd probably say something like "may god be with you" or similar - the best I can do is "I'm a dad too - lets form a group to deal with those who advocate culling our children for their(childless) benefit!". Still, as long as she's happy, theres not much more to worry about right now :-)

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Chili-71]

A very wise man once said, "Spare the rod and spoil the child." A lesson we have long forgotten. Heaven forbid we spank a child for doing something wrong [insert sarcasm]. Granted there's a fine line between discipline and abuse, but a good hide tanning when all else fails can accomplish miracles some times.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[geminidomino]

No, that's schadenfreude.

The "civic virtue" would be things like Jill Schmuckatelli working up just a quarter of the righteous indignation at the constant bullshit said corporations get away with that she did over a super bowl nip-slip.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[couchslug]

The masters are mostly above the law, and the hope for peaceful change is so limited that breaking stuff is pretty mild compared to alternatives.

Morality isn't a "duty" to abide by when there will NEVER be a reward, it's a "trade". Virtue has never been its own reward. That's a useful lie.

Our masters don't act "morally" towards us, so we are absolved of any obligation to reciprocity.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[kevinNCSU]

History says otherwise. Look at Western European societies that gone from being irrational and god fearing to secular and reasonable.

Usually through the process of the irrational god-fearing people dying. Not necessarily violently (though the horrors of ww1 and ww2 certainly helped) but being replaced by offspring who would grow more and more liberal. I agree that individuals can change, but a people as a whole generally don't without the time to be replaced by new generations.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Dog-Cow]

If a 9 year old murders another (or anyone), that 9 year old should be immediately put to death. There is no justice in allowing a murderer to live. There is no benefit to society. And not only should the murderer die, but everyone responsible for teaching him proper behavior and respect for life should also be killed.

Western society places no value on life. That's how you get 9 year old murderers in the first place.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Dog-Cow]

It's only inefficient because the law makes it so. As any murderer can tell you, it's ridiculously cheap to kill someone. When a dog who has been trained to attack kills someone, it's put down. Why don't we do the same for humans who have far more control over their training and actions?

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[GameboyRMH]

You didn't even need to guess the code, UK cellular telcos would let you straight into anyone's voicemail if you knew the voicemail access number and their cell number, it was well known at the time. It's too bad the telcos aren't taking any heat for this.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[jon_doh2.0]

"16 percent of the prison population can be classified as severely mentally ill, meaning that they fit the psychiatric classification for illnesses such as schizophrenia, major depression, and bipolar disorder. According to staff at city and community jails, 25 percent of the jail population is severely mentally ill. However, when other mental illnesses, such as anti-social personality disorder, borderline personality disorder and depression, are included, the numbers are much higher, and NAMI puts the number of inmates suffering from both mental illness and substance abuse the percentage at well over 50 percent. "

From:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/asylums/etc/faqs.html#1

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[moortak]

So the shareholders get the financial benefits of the hacking, but shouldn't face a risk to the assets? If I founded a company that performed the acts alleged against NoTW the least I would face would be the seizure of assets. This isn't a case of one or two bad employees the scale of the acts shows it was an endemic problem at the paper. Part of due diligence should damn sure include being sure your profits aren't coming from criminal acts.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[phantomfive]

If I founded a company that performed the acts alleged against NoTW the least I would face would be the seizure of assets.

Really? Under what law? I am interested.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[jon_doh2.0]

I read (a long time ago, look for your own sources), that a highly profitable overland oil pipeline could be run through Afghanistan, and this could be argued as being a strategic interest , motivating (partly) US invasion.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[phantomfive]

I don't remember that situation, but if what you're saying is true, it indeed sucks. The corporation in that case did not get away with murder, the people who were in charge did.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[phantomfive]

Ironically, the justice system is not meant to be just. It is meant to punish those who are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, which means in a highly un-just way, many guilty people remain unpunished. We've decided as a society that it's preferable to let guilty people go free than to accidentally punish the innocent.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[moortak]

RICO for one. Bribery and obstruction of justice both fall under RICO.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[phantomfive]

What? Was there bribery and obstruction of justice? Why were they not prosecuted? RICO is probably not useful in that situation, but bribery and obstruction of justice are crimes by themselves.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[phantomfive]

The point of the US justice system is exactly that sometimes we let people go free. That is the meaning of 'guilty beyond reasonable doubt.' We prefer to let guilty people go free over punishing the innocent.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[moortak]

They weren't charged under US law because 1 they aren't in the US, 2 the situation is still developing, 3 they have enough clout to likely avoid charges that others would face. Bribery http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/18/news-corp-global-investigation-bribery Obstruction. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/phone-hacking/8639107/Phone-hacking-Rupert-Murdochs-American-legal-woes-mount-up.html

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[phantomfive]

Oh, sorry, I got confused and thought we were talking about a west Virginia Mining accident. ;) Yeah, I'll give time for the NewsCorp saga to play out. It is still going, but it is really looking like more of a UK thing, which means we in the US can't do anything about it if UK politicians and policemen are corrupt.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Mashiki]

Right. And when people decide to physically attack someone like today?

It's an irrational fear and hate, based on bullshit and 'opinion' of flappy heads. The irony is people modded my original post a 'troll'. Yet it does appear, like usual I'm right.

Irrational fear+hate = physical attacks.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[whoever57]

It's only inefficient because the law makes it so

Yeah, we should just execute people immediately after they are arrested. That whole trial and appeals process is such a waste of time. I mean, who cares if innocent people get executed? </sarcasm>

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[causality]

I can't tell if you're talking about LulzSec or Sun being the "kid that needs a black eye".

I'm talking about neither of those. I'm talking about general principle. Your confusion stems from a misguided belief that I must be rooting for one "side" or the "other side".

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[causality]

Whether he is executed or not doesn't make the victim any less dead.

The idea is that both execution and say, life in prison are two ways to remove from society a person who has proven themselves to be violent and dangerous to others. I really doubt you are saying that there should be no serious consequence for convicted murderers. There's also another purpose for having a justice system: without one, these things usually turn into blood feuds, cycles of revenge.

The death-penalty debate is about which method is more appropriate. Both methods assume a murderer should be removed from general society.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[mcgrew]

No Survivors Found After West Virginia Mine Disaster

Rescue workers described the blast as overwhelming â" like nothing they had ever witnessed. Rail lines were twisted like pretzels, they said. Mining machines were blown to pieces. The conditions underground were such a mess after the explosion that is was only late Friday that rescuers realized that they had walked past the bodies of the four missing miners on the first day without seeing, a federal mine safety official said.

This weekâ(TM)s blast comes after a year in which the Upper Big Branch mine had repeated problems with methane buildups. Since April 2009, federal regulators have cited the mine eight times for âoesubstantialâ violations relating to the mineâ(TM)s methane control plans, according to the records.

In two instances, the regulators found the mine operator was calibrating methane monitors every three months even though it is supposed to be done every 31 days. The delays in attending to the monitors meant they could not properly detect the gas, a risk inspectors said could lead to severe injuries or prove fatal.

On April 30, 2009, federal regulators found that the mine had failed to follow methane-related safety precautions. Regulators stopped work in a section of the mine until the ventilation was corrected.

Kevin Stricklin, of the federal Mine Safety and Health Administration, said he planned an aggressive investigation of the disaster. âoeI can tell you this: No stone will be left unturned,â he said.

Nobody went to prison, it was forgotten in the bigger news of Lindsay Lohan, Charlie Sheen, and Casey Anthony.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[causality]

It's intuitive to those who possess no self control. There's no reason to model and expound it (and everything else you pontificated on in your pretentious nonsense); it's perfectly well understood under the simple term "vigilantism".

You completely misunderstood me. I don't like vigilanteism. Because I don't like it and would like to see less of it, I seek to understand how and why it happens. I observe it does not happen in a vacuum. I see that there is a sequence of events that has to first happen before anyone is tempted to engage in it.

Henry David Throeau said, "there are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." The root is what I want to understand. If it reaches deep into the soil and has a firm hold, I want to know how it found such fertile soil, with what it was fertilized if you like.

I don't like vigilanteism because it should be completely redundant. I understand why it is not. As KRS-One said, there can be no peace without justice. If you really want to see the root of this, you have to address why so many people have so little confidence in legitimate authority. Those are hard problems that took generations to become this way. They will not be resolved overnight. The first step is to elevate the level of awareness to something beyond visceral disapproval of a surface manifestation.

The AC implied he/she is a member of Anonymous and I tend to believe that. So here we have such a person confirming what I have always said about why they do what they do. You think what, that just because I was not hostile, did not condemn or judge that person, did not try to impose my own brand of morality as though I were a superior being of some kind, that I celebrate the situation? No. I really don't. I just perceive that we've tried the adversarial thing for a while now and surprise, it creates more division and less understanding of how to prevent. That AC's honesty alone makes him/her worthy of civility.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[KDR_11k]

Doesn't have to be free, just available to everybody.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[arose]

What I'm saying is that the argument of "X doesn't make the victim any less dead" holds for any X, so it doesn't give any more, or less weight to any particular X.

But as far as consequences go... If we had a reliable method of determining that a person is no more likely to commit more murders then anyone else, then it would indeed stop being about removing the person from society.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Tolkien]

To be honest I'd never even heard of or read the books before. I don't think you need to have in order to understand the idea behind the four boxes, it speaks for itself quite clearly independent of any originating books.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Ginger Unicorn]

It's good that sony had to fix their security because of this, and i'm glad to see powerful and corrupt people get the comeuppance they need (and the issue of data security made starkly clear to people that are otherwise blissfully ignorant), but the very name "LulzSec" indicates that their motivation was amusing themselves through the misfortune of other people, not these collateral benefits.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[mcgrew]

It's true that the "four boxes" are insightful in themselves, but the originator of the phrase deserves credit. Actually I didn't remember what book it was from so I googled, and I remember reading Starship Troopers but I don't even remember what the book was about. The four boxes stuck in my mind even though the book it came from didn't.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[mcgrew]

Lulz is from their motto, "laughing at your security since 2011". Note that any of the crhacks could have been done by a bright twelve year old (and these may have indeed been).

I'm storing your valuables in a safe with a cardboard door and no guards or cameras, who are you going to blame when someone breaks in and steals the stuff you trusted me with?

If a bunch of kids break in and take your stuff and bring it to you (remember, the black hats were already in and using these data for nefarious purposes), laughing at the bank for having a cardboard door on the safe, are you going to be mad at the kids who showed you that your valuables were in jeopardy or the people you trusted to protect them? Especially if the kids had already told you the door was cardboard but the bank manager assured you that it was solid steel and you shouldn't listen to a bunch of dumb kids?

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[moortak]

No, the US has the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act that was created for situations much like this.

Re:Is this what it has come down to?

[Ginger Unicorn]

are you going to be mad at the kids

I never said I was mad at them, as I made clear, I'm glad it has happened, despite the trouble it has caused Sony's customers. I was pointing out that their motivations weren't altruistic as the person I was responding to seemed to imply.

All down

[norriefc]

AFAICT every single NI UK based website is currently offline.

Re:All down

[scubamage]

Their DNS server got taken down, and their admins have taken down public facing servers from what I've gathered.

Is It Wrong?

[causality]

Is it wrong that I'm amused to see this?

It's not like government was going to do anything to the corporation other than a slap-on-the-wrist fine that's certain to be less than the profits made by the act. That they may throw low-level employees under the bus doesn't change this. At least someone somewhere is trying to make sure that corporate malfeasance actually does have some kind of consequence.

I have always believed that a properly-functioning government, not owned by monied interests and willing to take effective and severe action against misbehaving corporations and their executives would have prevented both Anonymous and LulzSec from ever getting started. As I see it, they are only stepping in where the government has grotesquely failed. Everything that is bad about vigilanteism is caused by failing governments.

Re:Is It Wrong?

[Normal Dan]

No, no it isn't.

Re:Is It Wrong?

[Novotny]

I'd go so far as to say I'm utterly delighted.

Re:Is It Wrong?

[Stormthirst]

Rebecca Brooks: Arrested - former News International chief executive - hardly a low level employee
Les Hinton: Arrested - chief executive of Dow Jones - again hardly a low level employee

News International's share price has dropped 6%, which whilst isn't a fine, but will certainly hammer the profits of the organisation as a whole.

You have to bear in mind, most of this is going on in England, where there isn't nearly the obvious corruption you get in American politics. There is corruption - it's government and comes with the territory - but its no where near as blatant. Even the Commissioner and Assistant Commissioner of the Metropolitan police have resigned, even though they had nothing to do with it, nor any knowledge of it going on.

Re:Is It Wrong?

[drb226]

...would have prevented both Anonymous and LulzSec from ever getting started

Disagree. Some people simply want to "stick it to the man", defy authority, be rebellious, and work for "justice" in their own way. Or they just want to screw around with people. AnonyLulzSecWhatever is bound to form, regardless of the governmental circumstances.

Re:Is It Wrong?

[causality]

I don't know how things are in the U.K., but here in the U.S., if any politician so much as suggested trying this, there would be such a massive hue and cry from a huge section of the country about "Government overstepping their bounds!" and "Socialism!" that they wouldn't know what hit them.

If enforcing the law when an individual breaks it isn't socialism, then neither is enforcing the law when a corporation breaks it.

In fact you could even say it's less of an "overstep" or "socialist" when the law is enforced against corporations. I mean, supposedly we have government by the consent of the goverened, meaning individual people have a type of sovereignty that they have willingly surrendered as part of a social contract. Corporations, however, are entirely creations of the state. Since the state created them, it makes perfect sense for the state to regulate them with no need for recourse to any "social contract" type of argument.

Not that I disagree with your assessment of what would happen. The average American really has no idea what kind of vast, powerful interests are arrayed against them. Propaganda and demagoguery are their tools of choice because when the manipulations are successful, the victims think they are defending their own ideas.

Re:Is It Wrong?

[causality]

Rebecca Brooks: Arrested - former News International chief executive - hardly a low level employee Les Hinton: Arrested - chief executive of Dow Jones - again hardly a low level employee

News International's share price has dropped 6%, which whilst isn't a fine, but will certainly hammer the profits of the organisation as a whole.

You have to bear in mind, most of this is going on in England, where there isn't nearly the obvious corruption you get in American politics. There is corruption - it's government and comes with the territory - but its no where near as blatant. Even the Commissioner and Assistant Commissioner of the Metropolitan police have resigned, even though they had nothing to do with it, nor any knowledge of it going on.

The real question is whether the top-level executives at News Corp were looking the other way. The other real question is whether we will acknowledge that the shareholders soundly deserve to feel the effects of what they have chosen to invest in. If assholes like those who run News Corp have a hard time attracting investors while more ethical companies have no such difficulties, that's a win for everyone.

Still, what you say is at least something positive and it is good to hear. I'm happy to discover I was wrong about something because it means I don't have to remain ignorant. Thank you for setting me straight on that part.

It's fortunate for everyone that this happened in England where the corporations don't dominate government to quite the same degree as in the US.

Re:Is It Wrong?

[scubamage]

I'm hoping they do. I set an alert with my brokerage so I should be getting a text when their stock gets to 50 cents a share. There is money to be made off of NI's misery; rather poetic I think.

Re:Is It Wrong?

[digitig]

Even the Commissioner and Assistant Commissioner of the Metropolitan police have resigned, even though they had nothing to do with it, nor any knowledge of it going on.

Er -- Rebekah Brooks admitted to paying the police for information -- a criminal offence carrying a maximum penalty of £10000 or two years in prison -- in front of a select committee hearing in March 2003. If they had no knowledge of it going on that was either incompetence or a willful turning of a blind eye. Given the perks that the Commissioner got from from NI (which might be considered bribery in themselves) then their position was untenable.

Re:Is It Wrong?

[spongman]

enron?

Re:Is It Wrong?

[ioshhdflwuegfh]

Necrophilia does not mean what you think it means.

Re:Is It Wrong?

[delinear]

Our Prime Minister is close personal friends with Rebecca Brooks. He gave a job (despite a lot of advice to stay clear, and backed him even after the original allegations came out) to Andy Coulson, former editor of NoW who was arrested last week. You say corruption in the UK isn't blatant, and maybe this is all just innocent coincidence, but I tend to think if it looks like corruption and it smells like corruption, it's probably not a huge leap to assume it's corruption.

On the Rebecca Brooks front - she's been a convenient buffer between the public's desire for justice and James Murdoch, they kept her on long enough that the public were screaming for her blood and then threw her to the wolves in the hopes that it would sate their hunger. All of this is being orchestrated so that the people at the top can walk away unharmed, but who created the culture in which these crimes were rewarded if not the people at the top? If the Murdochs aren't criminals then they're at least criminally negligent (I refuse to attribute all of this to mere incompetence - Murdoch has proved for many years he's a shrewd operator).

Re:Is It Wrong?

[TCQuad]

News International's share price has dropped 6%, which whilst isn't a fine, but will certainly hammer the profits of the organisation as a whole.

News Corp closed at ~15 yesterday. At the end of January, it was ~15. So, while they lost some of the gains for this year (to be expected with the scuttling of the BSkyB deal and NotW), they're not exactly going to be hard up on cash.

Re:Is It Wrong?

[Stormthirst]

Sorry - you're right. I'm not sure where I got that from. Should have checked my facts a little more closely.

Re:Is It Wrong?

[Stormthirst]

It's fortunate for everyone that this happened in England where the corporations don't dominate government to quite the same degree as in the US.

OK, I can't play Fox commentator any more, I have do this part straight both as a member of said media and as a person who doesn't like this level of stupidity. What planet do you live on? The only difference is that it is better hidden in England, they are subtle, something that has been entirely lost in this country because things are so blatant there is no need for subtlety.

              -Charlie

Perhaps you can provide some evidence for that? Until then, I don't think you know what you are talking about!

Re:Is It Wrong?

[causality]

OK, I can't play Fox commentator any more, I have do this part straight both as a member of said media and as a person who doesn't like this level of stupidity. What planet do you live on? The only difference is that it is better hidden in England, they are subtle, something that has been entirely lost in this country because things are so blatant there is no need for subtlety.

Sounds like "not to quite the same degree" to me. You know, 95% is not to quite the same degree as 99%. If they are subtle it's because they are afraid to do so openly, because they don't feel like the people would tolerate the more blatant in-your-face what-are-you-gonna-do-about-it version. That's a credit to the people of England.

Re:Is It Wrong?

[causality]

...would have prevented both Anonymous and LulzSec from ever getting started

Disagree. Some people simply want to "stick it to the man", defy authority, be rebellious, and work for "justice" in their own way. Or they just want to screw around with people. AnonyLulzSecWhatever is bound to form, regardless of the governmental circumstances.

Yes but they don't usually get an "organization" (however loose and/or leaderless) of like-minded people off the ground who act in concert to achieve shared goals. The kind of people you're talking about are usually lone wolves.

I mean, look at their choices of targets (both Anon and Lulz). If they just wanted to raise hell and rebel they wouldn't restrict themselves to the more corrupt corporations. They have a clear ethos that guides their choice of action. This is not random anarchy. It has a kind of logic more sophisticated than the way you categorize it. If they just wanted to screw with people, there are much easier targets which are not so well defended.

Is there really a problem here?

[zcomuto]

It's not like the Sun ever posts anything remotely approaching actual news or something with a factual grounding, so what difference does it make if the homepage redirects to the actual Sun homepage or a spoof? Neither is actually news.

Re:Is there really a problem here?

[DriedClexler]

It's not like Slashdot ever posts anything remotely approaching actual news or something with a factual grounding, so what difference does it make if the homepage redirects to the actual Slashdot homepage or to Digg? Neither is actually news.

Why Isn't Anyone Slagging Cell Carrier's Security?

[theshowmecanuck]

Yes it was very bad of the News of the World to hack these people's phones/voicemail. But how come we haven't heard anyone go after the cell phone providers for a shitty security setup. Sure the people's passwords might have been easy, but I remember when that guy hacked Paris Hilton's T-Mobile account. Everyone was slagging the shit out of T-Mobile as well as the hacker. And if the people who's accounts were violated because of poor passwords, why hasn't anyone commented in the news about this either? Are these points not sensationalistic for them?

So much for retiring

[msobkow]

Guess they haven't figured out how to retire without working. It's a common problem from what I've heard. :)

Re:So much for retiring

[Killerchronic]

More like they retired because they got worried and then got bored after realising nothing else happened. Most of their latest tweets were following a sodding car chase, someone sounds bored and looking for more attention to be honest.

News Corp is making themselves out as victims

[SpazmodeusG]

Link

News Corp was already pushing this storey as if they are victims, I see no good from actually giving them something to claim victimisation over.

Re:News Corp is making themselves out as victims

[jellomizer]

Did you expect anything different. News corp has been trying to make everyone believe there is a LiBrAl CoNsPeRcY going on. When you have a bunch of hackers directing their attacts at conservative sources, it proves their point and strengthens their resolve.
This type hacking crap helps no one, and makes the problem worse.

Re:News Corp is making themselves out as victims

[steelfood]

I fail to see how this is different from their usual "news". It's not as if their normal every-day reporting is any less objective.

Re:News Corp is making themselves out as victims

[steelfood]

By "less," I meant more objective. Their everyday reporting isn't any more objective.

Re:News Corp is making themselves out as victims

[toxickitty]

This type hacking crap helps no one, and makes the problem worse.

Yeah cause I totally see the rest of the worlds popualtion getting up and doing something about corporations getting off lightly, oh wait...

Re:News Corp is making themselves out as victims

[dintech]

The Sun is right wing but they have no loyalty. UK politicians are historically very scared of The Sun and rightly so. In many cases, the party they back goes on to win the election. That's why David Cameron met senior News Corp executives many times before and after the election. It's very important to keep them happy.

1992 Backing Conservative:
http://www.lbc.co.uk/the-sun-turns-40---best-headlines-16241/view/5055

1997 Backing Labour:
http://www.lbc.co.uk/the-sun-turns-40---best-headlines-16241/view/5058

2009 Backing Conservative:
http://www.lbc.co.uk/the-sun-turns-40---best-headlines-16241/view/5073

To give News Corp even more control over the British media (if it had been allowed to buy British Sky Broadcasting) would make the situation even worse. Thankfully now there are murmurings in among UK politicians to break up News Corps existing controls of British media.

Re:News Corp is making themselves out as victims

[delinear]

Their usual level of "reporting" is so not much objective as objectionable.

IMPORTANT

[Anonymous Coward]

They got all the news international emails as well, to be posted tomorrow.

That includes wade and co.

People, this could be massive ^^

Re:IMPORTANT

[Anonymous Coward]

Or it could mean that the lawyers can claim evidence has been planted because they were hacked ...

Re:IMPORTANT

[jampola]

I'm 99% sure all evidence has been accounted for (or deleted already!) - But mind you, I'm sure they'll find a way to twist it around if emails get leaked.

Re:IMPORTANT

[Little_Professor]

People, this could be massive ^^
Could have been, but turns out as usual they were just posting silly images and indulging in short-lived DDOS attacks. If only they would use their talents for good.

Way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about 'Success', but I can spell 'Compromised and Contaminated Evidence' what with this lot and our idiot MPs crashing around it will be amazing if anyone gets prosecuted for this sordid mess.

Re:Way to go

[Dunbal]

Doesn't matter if anyone gets prosecuted. Damages are $8 billion and counting, and News Corp is about to lose its credit rating. No court in the world could dish out this sort of damage.

Re:Way to go

[ioshhdflwuegfh]

Doesn't matter if anyone gets prosecuted. Damages are $8 billion and counting, and News Corp is about to lose its credit rating. No court in the world could dish out this sort of damage.

It does matter, because you cannot measure everything in the world in terms of money loss/gain. That's why we have courts, legal system, etc.

Re:Way to go

[Tim C]

Doesn't matter if anyone gets prosecuted. Damages are $8 billion and counting, and News Corp is about to lose its credit rating.

Yes it most certainly does matter. I don't care what happens to the company as a whole, I want to see those who were actually responsible in court. In fact, the company as a whole going down because of the actions of a few mostly harms people who had no involvement in or knowledge of what was happening, until it was far too late.

Oh for fuck's sake

[Anonymous Coward]

The name of the newspaper is The Sun. For a website that capitalizes "the" in headlines as often as not, you'd think they could at least get it right the one time that it SHOULD be capitalized.

They are not targeting "the Sun". They are targeting The Sun. Bonus points if you can figure out how to italicize it in the headline. HTML isn't that hard.

Re:Oh for fuck's sake

[lattyware]

Fair enough, but you didn't say that. Just making the point.

Karma

[t00le]

Karma is a bitch

Scousers never buy the Sun.

[bmo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1P6KUyOhBc

And why they never buy the Sun:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4258455.stm

Basically the Sun isn't even fit to line a birdcage.

--
BMO

Re:Hacking? DDoS is more like it...

[norriefc]

I don't see hacking, I only noticed the domain won't resolve. So its back to ddos again, as always. Lame; guess the only "inteligence" here is that they seem to have targeted the DNS server.

Totally not impressed here.

That's only because NI went scorched earth and took down all their NI UK based websites. There are screenshots and videos floating about the net

The Sun probably did it anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

What if Lulz-sec was The Sun and its just a convenient way to make themselves look like the victims and continue to hack into more things for "news" stories.

I thought I took my medication today.

Re:The Sun probably did it anyway

[initialE]

That's, by the way, the plot to that James Bond movie, Tomorrow never Dies

Re:Why Isn't Anyone Slagging Cell Carrier's Securi

[blackraven14250]

Because the people reporting on the stories know nothing of security...

Re:Hackers...

[Thansal]

Buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo Buffalo.

Re:Why Isn't Anyone Slagging Cell Carrier's Securi

[scubamage]

The hackers of Paris Hilton's phone weren't being employed by a massive multinational corporation to hack the phones. The people who did hack the phones saw jail time - something that will never happen to anyone who actually ordered the crimes to be committed in the case of News Corp. Until we start instituting nuremburg style trials for large corporations where there are serious consequences for malfeasance, this is going to get worse. At least in China the executives get executed when this shit happens.

They have gone too far!!!

[DaveAtFraud]

News International I understand. The Sun, too, I guess. But why in the name of all that is holy would they take down Page 3?

Cheers,
Dave

Re:They have gone too far!!!

[digitig]

News International I understand. The Sun, too, I guess. But why in the name of all that is holy would they take down Page 3?

Well, duh! This is the internet. Do you really think that taking down page 3 would have any measurable impact on the amount of porn available?

Re:They have gone too far!!!

[DaveAtFraud]

Not the point. Page 3 == really nice, high class boobies.

(And, no, I don't need to talk to Dr. Phil about my mammary fixation)

Cheers,
Dave

Re:They have gone too far!!!

[digitig]

Not the point. Page 3 == really nice, high class boobies.

How many were on the net before the site went down? And how many after?

The Sun Also Rises

[Alien Being]

No.

Re:The Sun Also Rises

[Deus.1.01]

Yes.

Re:Why Isn't Anyone Slagging Cell Carrier's Securi

[Tetch]

ISTR Paris Hilton's phone's password turned out to be just the name of her dog, or something equally stupid ... which wouldn't require hacking, just a lucky guess.

As most of us here understand, mobile voicemail hacking just requires brute-forcing a PIN - 4 digits in the case of UK cellphones ... or just 2 digits in the case of my home ansafone :-)

So there isn't much security on a cellphone's voicemail to criticise in the first place.

Looks like their DNS servers are offline.

[Cybertect]

Maybe News International threw in the towel and pulled the plug on them.

Re:Yay! let's give Murdoch a defense!

[FyRE666]

In contrast to your understanding of how the UK functions, you'll find that our Queen is not actually involved in the judicial process.

Re:Yay! let's give Murdoch a defense!

[scubamage]

Dude, don't argue with the Queen. She'll have your head off for that.

For the Louise

[norriefc]

The Lulz is dead, long live the Louise

Sky News is there

It was all the work of Anonymous and 'Louise Boat'

[Cybertect]

Apparently

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG7IURgryjA

For non-UK readers, Sky News is part of News International's UK TV operation.

Dear LulzSec

[SammyH4x]

The Fox News website is still operational. Please advise.

Re:Dear LulzSec

[scubamage]

Don't just stand there, throw something!!!

Re:Yay! let's give Murdoch a defense!

[blair1q]

I think you'll find she's the one in whose name it all happens. I was taking a little literary license by inserting her bodily into the scene. If you wish to best enjoy the theatricality of it, read the Queen's lines in Miranda Richardson's voice.

Anonymous and LulzSec are really funny

[Presto Vivace]

until it happens to you. Righteous lawlessness stinks out loud.

Re:Anonymous and LulzSec are really funny

[datsa]

Righteous lawlessness stinks out loud.

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, Murdoch's righteous lawlessness is far more damaging than LulzSec's, and a lot less amusing.

Re:Anonymous and LulzSec are really funny

[cffrost]

Anonymous and LulzSec are really funny until it happens to you.

I retrieve all data disclosed by both groups. Should I find one of my accounts in any their disclosures, I would condemn the corporation that left my account open to compromise, not the organization that cast light upon said corporation's lackadaisical security procedures. Once one's account appears on one of these lists, it's plausible that a genuine "black hat" organization (that does not practice disclosure) already possesses these data, for use in the pursuit of financial gain.

Re:Why Isn't Anyone Slagging Cell Carrier's Securi

[CheShACat]

I believe most (if not all?) of the "hacking" was via default voicemail PINs that were never changed. Even easier!

how else does one get punished for flagrant illega

[Presto Vivace]

I think that this time News Corp will be held responsible. No need for vigilante justice. http://technoflak.blogspot.com/2011/07/fall-of-house-of-hubris.html

the ends do not justify the means

[Presto Vivace]

the means determine the ends. Vigilante justice is not the path to the rule of law.

Re:the ends do not justify the means

[spongman]

i'd agree with that except it's clear that there is NO rule of law here: the police have shown themselves to be incompetent/complicit in this case.

Re:the ends do not justify the means

[scubamage]

I wish there was some sort of effective solution. Obviously the courts are failing miserably.

Re:the ends do not justify the means

[mcgrew]

Vigilante justice is the result of those in charge of the rule of law not doing their jobs. Murdoch belongs in prison.

there is nothing irrational about fearing Murdoch

[Presto Vivace]

Murdoch is a pirate http://it.slashdot.org/story/08/03/31/0145241/Murdochs-Hacker-Speaks-Out

tampering with evidence?

[new death barbie]

Hopefully there was nothing on those servers that could have help prosecute a case against them. I doubt any court would let the evidence in, with a record of unauthorized intrusions that may or may not have made changes. Certainly it would be a bitch for the prosecution to try.

Re:tampering with evidence?

[scubamage]

They can admit it in the US. The exclusionary clause protects you from a government search. It does nothing to protect you from someone breaking in to your PC, stealing your hard drive, and then turning it over to the police when they find kiddie porn.

Re:tampering with evidence?

[delinear]

Considering the police are meant to have siezed all the evidence already, the fact that this stuff was lying around where LulzSec could access it shows either that it wasn't important or that the police had "missed" it and there was little chance of it ever showing up in court. Maybe this way at least if there is anything pertinent it will have a chance to see the light of day.

the actual laws involved

[decora]

in the US would break down into perhaps the following.

NEWS of the World
actually hurting people
harassment
infliction of emotional distress
invasion of privacy

phone phreaks / lulzsec
tresspassing
tortuous interference
harassment
public nuisance

now, , , then there are the 'evil hacker laws'.

"doing naughty things on computers"
Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (same law they tried to use on the Myspace suicide woman)
(also coincidentally the same law being used against Bradley Manning, Wikileaks, NSA Whistleblower Thomas Drake, etc).

Various state laws, like the California Comprehensive Computer Crimes Whatsitcalled. (Which Facebook has used to sue people who ... crawl facebook)

so actually the laws are completely different depending. and IMHO most of the 'hacking laws' are unconstitutionally vague and unnecessary

Re:Yay! let's give Murdoch a defense!

[spongman]

oh no?

Dispatch War Rocket Ajax

[Scarletdown]

From the headline, I was expecting to read "This morning's unprecedented solar eclipse is no cause for alarm."

And that would have been followed by some fiend ordering, "Dispatch War Rocket Ajax, to bring back their bodies."

Re:Dispatch War Rocket Ajax

[Alioth]

For years I always thought that line was "Dispatch Warlock and Ajax, to bring back their bodies"...

Re:Dispatch War Rocket Ajax

[geminidomino]

Same here. I blame the old magnetic tapes I was listening to.

Of course, I was partially vindicated when I learned that the second line of the chorus of Killer Queen really was "gunpowder gelatin." WTF, Freddie?

Re:Dispatch War Rocket Ajax

[Scarletdown]

For years I always thought that line was "Dispatch Warlock and Ajax, to bring back their bodies"...

I thought it was Dispath Warwick and Ajax

The world would be better off without you

[Benfea]

The guy is retarded, and thus less capable of making or being responsible for decisions. Since you seem to be unable to grasp why it would be a bad idea to execute retarded people, I think the world would be better off without you. Society deserves to rid itself of people like you.

Re:The world would be better off without you

[Xaositecte]

Explain it to me, I'm honestly not getting it. This is a person who cannot function in society, the options are either a lifetime of confinement, or death penalty. Neither of these are a good solution for someone committing acts because of a mental defect, but they're absolutely necessary, because if he's incapable of understanding why this was a bad idea the first time, he'll be incapable of understanding why it's a bad idea the next time.

Re:The world would be better off without you

[Issarlk]

What's so wrong about a lifetime of confinement ?
And please don't bring up the "it costs money!" argument, the number of people in the death row is probably several order of magnitude lower than those thrown into jail for doing drugs and the cost of not killing them a drop in the ocean.

Re:The world would be better off without you

[nosferatu1001]

So you support the death penalty as appled to those under the age of criminal responsbiolity as well I assume?

You dont execute someone who is incapable of understanding their actions and the consequences of them. Its a basic premise, and why you have an age of criminal responsbility in the first place.

Of course, the much more civilised (and effective!) method is simply not having a death penalty. Dont worry, the US will eventually grow up enough to realise that.

Finally - cost is not a problem. The many orders of magnitude greater court costs, and process throughout death row, makes the death penalty more expensive than incarcerating them for life. So you get the worst of both worlds - more and expensive and not effective.

Re:The world would be better off without you

[tehcyder]

Explain it to me, I'm honestly not getting it. This is a person who cannot function in society, the options are either a lifetime of confinement, or death penalty. Neither of these are a good solution for someone committing acts because of a mental defect, but they're absolutely necessary, because if he's incapable of understanding why this was a bad idea the first time, he'll be incapable of understanding why it's a bad idea the next time.

The point is, you fucking dipshit, that if he couldn't understand what he did in the firstplace, he's not criminally responsible and shouldn't be fucking executed.

And, yes, he should be locked up for the rest of his life while he remains a danger to other people, same as we do in the UK for mentally ill killers in secure psychiatric hospitals like Broadmoor.

Re:The world would be better off without you

[sosume]

It would be like giving a cat the death penalty for killing a mouse. Who cares if the cat cannot understand that it should not do that! My way or teh highway!

Re:The world would be better off without you

[TheRaven64]

Well, we do give dogs the death penalty if they kill - or, in many cases, just injure - a human.

Re:The world would be better off without you

[Xaositecte]

I don't see a lifetime of imprisonment (or confinement in a mental hospital, which is arguably worse) as a better ethical choice than execution. Both options have effectively ended that person's life.

Re:The world would be better off without you

[DriedClexler]

Help me out here: how do you rob a restaurant, tie someone up, and disembowel them, all toward the same end ... without "making decisions"? Is that all something you can do just by instinct, without thought, without some level of recognition of links between means and ends, you just kind "go with the flow"?

I'm _not_ saying the death penalty was appropriate here. I'm just trying to reconcile the facts of the case with the claim that someone "doesn't make decisions", even though their actions only make sense in the context of goal-seeking.

If the defendant was that incapable, how did he even know the knife would cut? Or that a knife would be useful in the crime? Or that rope can prevent someone's movement?

Re:The world would be better off without you

[Xaositecte]

Why are you okay with effectively ending the life of a person through a lifetime of confinement who isn't criminally responsible for his actions? What exactly is the moral difference between executing someone now, and isolating them so they die decades from now after sitting around in a cell their entire life?

It's a de-facto death sentence through "old age" that takes decades to carry out.

Re:The world would be better off without you

[Xaositecte]

We would certainly kill a cat that had a disease making it violent towards humans.

Re:The world would be better off without you

[Xaositecte]

So you support lifetime incarceration for those under the age of criminal responsibility as well?

I'm not a big fan of the death penalty in most cases, simply because the number of people who later turn out to be innocent after having been convicted, but I don't see it as in intrinsically less moral or less ethical punishment for someone who is legitimately guilty.

Re:there is nothing irrational about fearing Murdo

[Mashiki]

Looks more like employees in his company are pirates, maybe possibly. Not him. Gee this is the pretty a-typical left wing 'guilt by association' thing that they go on about.

Original whistleblower found dead

[terminalhype]

Hmmm, apparently someone actually did die, sadly it wasn't Murdoch. http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2011-07-18-murdoch_n.htm

Mysteries aplenty.

hmm... what does this remind me of?

[Type44Q]

LulzSec Target the Sun...

...but not in quite the same way as did Disaster Area

Very definitely wrong

[DaveAtFraud]

Just a historical reminder. Both the Ku Klux Klan and the Nazis (before they came to power) used the same language for taking the law into their own hands. The only thing that keeps similar groups from using the same tactics to terrorize their targets and even, possibly, gain power is the rule of law. Yes, this time, the target of the vigilantes is a reprehensible dirt bag. Just remember that not all vigilantes are the good guys.

Cheers,
Dave

Re:Very definitely wrong

[shutdown -p now]

Underground Railroad was made in defiance of rule of law, as well. Law is not always a good thing. Sometimes it punishes innocent and protects crooks on a scale so large that it is not worth defending.

Not saying that this is that case...

Re:Very definitely wrong

[Yvanhoe]

And this is the reason why we need to fix laws quickly. It should be the law, it should be the governments that punish The Sun, but you know it is not going to happen. You are right, we are under the very risk that an extreme political group becomes popular by doing the Right Thing : punishing crooks while ignoring bad laws. Just be thankful it is groups like anonymous and lulzsec who don't root for any political party that does the punishing.

Re:Very definitely wrong

[DaveAtFraud]

Absolutely true. But I think you'll find that the underground railroad was a *non-violent* movement. I don't have a problem with boycotts, non-violent social disobedience, protests, and similar forms of protest. I have a problem with vigilantes taking the law into their own hands. The gist of this thread and several others seemed to be vigilante attacks are good with no thought given to when the same tactics and justifications were used by people we all consider as bad.

Cheers,
Dave

Re:Very definitely wrong

[DaveAtFraud]

No, I'm comparing vigilantes to vigilantes. Just because a bunch of people perceive the law to be wrong it stll doesn't justify taking the law into their own hands.

Cheers,
Dave

Re:Very definitely wrong

[kevinNCSU]

breaking the law =/= vigilantism (taking the law into your own hands)

Re:Very definitely wrong

[thoromyr]

I think it is important to look at *why* the violent vigilante acts occur. Something as simple as the KKK gets complex because there are a large number of different people involved for a variety of reasons. To present two very simple categories: some people want power over others (being ranked in an organization), some feel downtrodden and are looking for a culprit -- once somebody in the former realizes they can manipulate someone in the latter by playing on racist themes you have the beginnings of a movement.

Saying "violent acts not authorized by the law are bad" is not only only over simplistic, but is covered by your signature quote. As a general rule (meaning, it is a rule of thumb indicator, not a perfect yard stick) the more violent and aggressive the actions the more desperate the persons perceive their cause to be. If I've been unemployed for months on end, am being evicted, don't have money to buy food for my family -- most people would consider that to be fairly desperate. Some might resort to stealing to satisfy the food problem. Others will be more inclined to blame someone else for their troubles. If friends and relatives appear to have been hurt or killed by another group it is easy to take out anger and frustration on that group. And that road leads to terrorism.

To avoid blindness to reality it is important to take note of the underlying factors. Why do vigilantes do the things they do? It depends on the vigilante and their individual circumstance, but particularly when vigilante-ism becomes widespread in a region dealing out punishment to the transgressors does not resolve the problem. With respect to the KKK -- it is a sad truth that people from my generation who were raised in the south were presented with a very different view of the civil war, the circumstances surrounding it, and the aftermath. Public schools teaching them that blacks were aggressors against downtrodden and subjugated whites. Proper education is the long term solution, whatever actions are taken against particular vigilante acts.

In the present case there are claims that corporate citizenship has gone too far. Perhaps there is merit to that claim, but regardless *if* acts continue and *if* they are directed at corporations shielded from natural and legal consequence (immunity from legal/financial consequences is a significant component of an LLC, and "too big to fail") then the way to stop them is to address concerns about corporate immunity from the consequence of their collective actions.

Re:Very definitely wrong

[n1ywb]

Just a historical reminder. Both the Ku Klux Klan and the Nazis (before they came to power) used the same language for taking the law into their own hands. The only thing that keeps similar groups from using the same tactics to terrorize their targets and even, possibly, gain power is the rule of law. Yes, this time, the target of the vigilantes is a reprehensible dirt bag. Just remember that not all vigilantes are the good guys.

Cheers, Dave

You are a fucking retard comparing the lynching of Africans and the genocide of Jews to hacking some corrupt organizations' web sites. Murder vs. graffiti. Fuck off and die.

Re:Hackers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Snake... Its a snake!.... ??

Re:newsworld arent Hackers...

[malsbert]

Hackers - Cyber criminals = The difference (?)

How the order was given ...

[I don't want to spen]

"Set the controls for the heart of the Sun ..."

No it won't...

[Kupfernigk]

NotW's servers are currently in police custody, which is why they had to stop publication. The NotW building was a crime scene. As the servers are currently wrapped in plastic waiting for the police to extract data from the hard drives, Lulzsec may have trouble hacking them.

This proves they're idiots.

[CountBrass]

They've just given the News of the World staff a get out of jail card.

Now they can claim anything the police find in their emails was placed there by 'hackers'.

Makes you wonder if these morons were being paid by Murdoch to cover up for him.

Re:This proves they're idiots.

[horza]

This is the UK. The government requires ISPs to store all data of who has communicated with who and when. Should be possible to verify the emails. Anyway, the Met already has copies of the emails. They are being held in a warehouse in London by HCL Technologies, who say they are all intact and they have been co-operating with the police regarding access to the emails for the past 2 months.

Phillip.

Due process

[CountBrass]

We have this concept of due process and innocent until proven guilty.

The News of The World (and the police apparently corrupted by them and various politicians) are being investigated.

This silly prank has just made it much harder to obtain a conviction as the NotW staff can now claim any evidence in the mail servers has been compromised by hackers (assuming Lulzsec's claims are even true of course).

So unless you believe the authorities shoud just throw everyone in jail without bothering with such formalities as evidence and due process then what exactly is the excuse you are making for these idiots taking the law into their own hands?

Re:Due process

[delinear]

NotW is already closed down, its servers already in police possession. This attack was against The Sun, a sister newspaper, so it's unlikely to pollute the evidence. On top of that, the police have done little to nothing about this for several years now when they had the evidence and could have acted much earlier. They have admitted as much in the official enquiry (and had a couple of senior officers resign already) - so this is not a case of the authorities taking time to do their job and we just need to be patient, it's a case of the police involved in the investigation being at best negligent and at worst corrupt.

Re:Due process

[Dan Dankleton]

It's unlikely to pollute the evidence in the NoTW case - but since Rebekah Brooks became editor of The Sun after being at News Of The World it's likely to pollute evidence which will be useful in the enquiry into media ethics and possible criminal investigations, should The Sun have been doing anything dodgy.

Re:Due process

[kevinNCSU]

And yet all that time lolsec was doing nothing about it. Now that it's out in the open and the corrupt officials are resigning and being investigated is when they feel they need to strike? It's like closing the barn door after the horse got out and then lighting it on fire.

Re:how else does one get punished for flagrant ill

[mcgrew]

How does somebody's blog count as a citation? Has Murdock been jailed? Fox news is still on the air, you don't think all the other arms of Murdoch's empire are still doing the same shit the Sun did for years while authorities looked the other way?

My only beef with LulSec is they didn't take down Fox News and other Murdoch outlets.

Re:Probably stupider than hacking the Corleones...

[CrazyBusError]

And now the boot is on the other foot. Suddenly *they* have no secrets. How awesome is that?

Re:how else does one get punished for flagrant ill

[makomk]

Like, for example, their propaganda wing the Wall Street Journal?

Re:newsworld arent Hackers...

[Zediker]

one engages in crime (cyber criminals), the other is a generic term for a very skillful technology enthusiast. They are completely different.

Re:how else does one get punished for flagrant ill

[mcgrew]

The WSJ's no valid citation, either, especially an editorial.

Compromised a judicial enquiry!

[sleiper]

The hackers also started to post email addresses and passwords they claimed were from Sun staff, and said to have accessed a mail server at now-defunct News of the World." So LulzSec have introduced reasonable doubt to a massive judicial enquiry? Using this information the NotW lawyers can play down any email discovered as the work of these hackers. Rupert Murdock, rather than being hurt by these action, is probably laughing all the way down to his topiery garden!

Re:newsworld arent Hackers...

[GameboyRMH]

Cyber Criminals = Hackers + Crime

Hackers - Hackers + Crime = Crime

And both parties committed crimes so yes they are both technically cyber criminals. But then most hacking has been criminalized, even what DVD Jon did with his own property would be considered a crime in the US, as is drawing a sharpie around the inner edge of a CD's data area.