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Aaron Swartz Indicted in Attempted Piracy of Four Million Documents

An anonymous reader writes "New York Times has reported that Internet activist Aaron Swartz has been indicted for stealing more than 4 million documents from JSTOR." The indictment contains an exciting tale featuring trespassing, MAC address forgery, a Python script or two, and even computers hidden under a cardboard box. El Reg has a decent summary. Demand Progress has released an official response claiming the charges are trumped up nonsense.

174 comments

  1. Not Piracy by reebmmm · · Score: 4, Informative

    Perhaps this goes without saying, but the title is misleading. The Grand Jury did not indict Mr. Swartz on any copyright infringement or acts of piracy on the high seas. There are really only four indictments: wire fraud, computer fraud, unlawfully obtaining information form a protected computer, and recklessly damaging a protected computer.

    You can read the whole indictment here: http://ia700504.us.archive.org/29/items/gov.uscourts.mad.137971/gov.uscourts.mad.137971.2.0.pdf

    Criminal copyright infringement is not one of the charges.

    1. Re:Not Piracy by gtvr · · Score: 2

      Also he's apparently not a reddit co-founder.

    2. Re:Not Piracy by H0p313ss · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think Al Gore founded reddit.

      No, but he did chair the committee that authorized funding for the creation of what became the internet which did ultimately lead to the creation of Reddit, so he must bear some of the blame.

      --
      XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
    3. Re:Not Piracy by BatGnat · · Score: 1

      He then abandoned it to continue his search for manbearpig....

    4. Re:Not Piracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even he himself claims he is a Reddit founder. The fourth one to come on board in 2005 before Reddit was acquired.

    5. Re:Not Piracy by drooling-dog · · Score: 1, Insightful

      No, but he did chair the committee that authorized funding for the creation of what became the internet

      ...and as a result has been universally taunted and mocked by ignorant Republicans, not a one of whom at the time had even the slightest clue what the internet was, let alone what it could potentially become.

    6. Re:Not Piracy by yuhong · · Score: 1

      To be honest, the person was going to publish the result to file-sharing sites which would definitely have been copyright infringement.

    7. Re:Not Piracy by ka9dgx · · Score: 1

      Copyright infringement requires that you profit from it. While it appears that Aaron knew he was taking a risk, I strongly doubt that profit was his motive.

    8. Re:Not Piracy by CoderJoe · · Score: 2

      False. Copyright infringement is ANY copying or distribution for which you do not have permission. And before someone else mentions fair use: Fair use is a legal defense after the owner goes after you.

      You may not agree with the current state of copyright law, but you should at least know it before making false claims about it.

    9. Re:Not Piracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah? Well I co-chaired the committee that reviewed the recommendation to revise the color of the book that funding authorization is in! We kept it gray.

    10. Re:Not Piracy by CoderJoe · · Score: 1

      I forgot to mention: I am not a lawyer, let alone YOUR lawyer. This is not legal advice.

  2. He's a Reddit co-founder. by rolfwind · · Score: 1

    Surprised the title or summary didn't mention that.

    1. Re:He's a Reddit co-founder. by gnick · · Score: 2

      He claims to be a Reddit co-founder, but several sources including Reddit strongly dispute that claim.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    2. Re:He's a Reddit co-founder. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The original Slashdot title had "Reddit co-founder", but it seems to have changed, which is good. Swartz' company was merged with reddit at some point before he was forced to resign, but he's not a reddit co-founder.

    3. Re:He's a Reddit co-founder. by Kindgott · · Score: 1

      An update on the article points out that his claim of being a Reddit co-founder is in dispute.

      --
      If there's anything more important than my ego around here, I want it caught and shot immediately.
    4. Re:He's a Reddit co-founder. by EvilStein · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, he is not.

      "Edit: Actually, apparently Alexis had this to say[Gizmodo]:
      He is absolutely not a founding member. We acquired his company in December, 6 months after Steve and I launched reddit."

    5. Re:He's a Reddit co-founder. by Dan667 · · Score: 1

      Swartz was fired from Reddit.

    6. Re:He's a Reddit co-founder. by demonbug · · Score: 1

      Swartz was fired from Reddit.

      Well, there's one positive on his resume.

  3. It sounds like he was being an asshole by Scareduck · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The "too many library books" thing is a little disingenuous; I wonder whether JSTOR's servers were capable of keeping up with this kind of assault (assuming the factual description of this event is correct). On the other hand, this looks like government deciding to throw the books at this guy because they don't like his organization, and are using this as a pretext.

    --

    Dog is my co-pilot.

    1. Re:It sounds like he was being an asshole by garcia · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I read an article about this earlier which said it crashed JSTOR's servers on at least three occasions.

      However, JSTOR didn't wan to press charges yet the feds continued to push it. Academic interests (hilarious considering the reason for JSTOR) be dammed.

    2. Re:It sounds like he was being an asshole by Kindgott · · Score: 1

      I unsubscribed from the Demand Progress mailing list because of their whitewashing of the charges against him.

      --
      If there's anything more important than my ego around here, I want it caught and shot immediately.
    3. Re:It sounds like he was being an asshole by gnick · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that many of the things he copied were being made commercially available for sale, not made free as in library.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    4. Re:It sounds like he was being an asshole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I read the indictment, and he appears to have been doing this from an Acer laptop... If one Acer laptop can bring down JSTOR, maybe they should rethink their network architecture...

    5. Re:It sounds like he was being an asshole by etresoft · · Score: 2
      According to the indictment, he didn't manage to overwhelm JSTOR until he hooked up a Mac too.

      The next day, October 9, 2010, Swartz used both the “ghost laptop” and the “ghost macbook” to systematically and rapidly access and download an extraordinary volume of articles from JSTOR. The pace was so fast that it brought down some of JSTOR’s computer servers.

      Perhaps the Acer didn't have gigabit ethernet like the Mac does. That comes in handy when you break into the wiring closet and connect directly to the switch.

    6. Re:It sounds like he was being an asshole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Commercially available, by a third party. You think most of the books in a library are NOT commercially available?

      My point is: this is a straw man argument. Just because something is available commercially does not mean it is unavailable, legally, for free.

    7. Re:It sounds like he was being an asshole by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I looked at that a little funny, too. It's an apt analogy, but it leaves out a few details... like making up a few fake IDs to get a library card, and then breaking into the library's protected archives, and then photocopying every book you can find, at a pace that interferes with other's access to those works. (running in and out of the narrow stacks, using every copier in the building, etc.) But, yes, it's just like checking out a few million books from the library. :-)

      I wouldn't use the word "assault"... he was accessing the system(s) in a manner consistent with the way they were built. (at a pace they didn't design it to handle???)

      I have to question MIT's IT and Security people if they cannot locate and remove a laptop plugged into a physical port on a switch in a closet in the basement of Building 16. I've located a single "misbehaving" computer in a 9 story building, half filled with HUBS -- you had to actually go look at the hub to see which port was flashing wildly. (It took longer to lookup the MAC in the company's inventory than it did to trace it through the switches -- and hub -- to a desk.)

    8. Re:It sounds like he was being an asshole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read an article about this earlier which said it crashed JSTOR's servers on at least three occasions.

      You have to wonder how they have their servers configured if one Acer laptop can overload them just by downloading articles.

    9. Re:It sounds like he was being an asshole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Information wants to be free. I wish he had been able to get all of jstor and mirror it on an offshore server for us all to use.

  4. my hero by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    he is my hero. F R E E Information

  5. Oh, really? by Pope · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "Aaron Swartz, a 24-year-old researcher in Harvard University's Center for Ethics, broke into a locked computer-wiring closet in an MIT basement and used a switch there to gain unauthorized access the college's network,"

    How ethical.

    "Members of Demand Progress, a nonprofit political action group Swartz founded, criticized the indictment."

    Oh, really? No conflict of interest there.

    --
    It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    1. Re:Oh, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      > How ethical.

      Well, it is if they were hoarding data that should be public, say. That's dubious in this case, but could be how Aaron saw it at the time In any case, JSTOR explicitly requested that charges not be pressed and the feds are doing so anyway like dicks, likely because in later life Aaron went on to do terribly inconvenient pro-liberty lobbying of the government.

    2. Re:Oh, really? by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      "Well, it is if they were hoarding data that should be public, say."

      Any comments on the ethics related to hoarding and "financial obesity" (a term I first read in a story by James P. Hogan)?

      The USA used to be a more dynamic place in many ways decades ago when it had progressive taxation rate at 91% or so for income above a certain limit...

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    3. Re:Oh, really? by gordo3000 · · Score: 2

      so we spent our first 130 years of history without any dynamic changes (you know, before income tax)? It must have been.

      I also hope you know that the top 0.1% and the top 10% pay more of the total federal income tax burden today than they did in your heyday of 91% marginal tax rates. So if anything, we have increased the progressiveness. (here is the current breakdown: http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html). Hell, the top 1% pay more now than they did in 2000 with higher capital gains taxes, higher income taxes, and an economic boom going on. They paid more in 2005 after 2 bush tax cuts which everyone claims mainly went to the wealthy. If net/net, cutting taxes the way bush did increases the proportion of total income taxes paid by the wealthiest, I'd say it's anything but a "giveaway" and actually realized a bit more of the liberal dream.

      I'm not sure about others, but in my small group I work with, I know many, many people would walk away from the job if the top rates went back to 91%. I definitely would. That just reduces economic output and removes top performers from a lot of jobs, making the economy less dynamic. Now if you want to get more equality in income by just discouraging people from earning >x, wouldn't it be easier to just say X is the limit of what anyone can be paid for doing anything?

  6. JSTOR?? by P.+Legba · · Score: 1

    How many academic articles does one need, anyway?

    I mean, I've wanted a way to grab two or three in my lifetime without going through the University, but really? Stealing academic articles?

    Fascinating.

    1. Re:JSTOR?? by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      Who is hiding what, one wonders. Big gulp of articles, but what was the motive? What's in there that meant breaking a lot of rules (potentially laws, too)?

      Is there something curious in that batch? Has anyone combed the evidence? Is there an FOIA in this? One wonders.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    2. Re:JSTOR?? by gnapster · · Score: 1

      We can't comb the evidence because he apparently never got to the point of sharing the blob of articles on the pirate bay. Seems pretty clear-cut to me: He is an ethics researcher, got it into his head that it is unethical for journals to have restricted archives, and was doing his best to liberate as many archives as he had access to.

      I wonder if JSTOR, through MIT, was his first target. I mean, how many universities are there in Boston? And somebody check arXiv.org; see if there's been an influx of submissions.

    3. Re:JSTOR?? by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      It seems like a huge "liberation", but mindless in purpose. Sort of almost anti-Wikileaks in mentality if you think about it.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    4. Re:JSTOR?? by gnapster · · Score: 1

      Anti-Wikileaks? I don't believe so. The motivation is access for all. Currently, documents in JSTOR cannot be freely accessed by those without memberships. Pirating the JSTOR repository changes that. When Wikileaks makes information public, they are trying to shed light on the organization that produced the information. If these JSTOR documents were shared, it would be so the knowledge itself may be used, without any judgement of the authors. (When I read a leaked cable, I care not for the cable's content, but what it implies about my ambassador. When I read a leaked physics paper, I care about the paper's content and results, not the author.)

  7. How curious... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

    Regardless of whether the tale in the indictment is true or not, it seems a weird way to go about just getting a whole bunch of jstor articles...

    The defendant's record suggests a reasonable amount of tech savvy and some geek and activist cred. Combined, perhaps, with a little beer money, that should be enough to secure the cooperation of a few students at a great many of the colleges that have site licenses for jstor journals. Within trivial driving/MBTA distance of MIT alone, there are quite a few to choose from.

    It seems like you could get entirely the same results, entirely above board, just by scraping a little more slowly, from slightly more endpoints, which would be easy to secure with the permission of their owners. While MIT is fairly laid back, cloak-and-daggering into their wiring closets risks the wrath of some resident BOFH, and it isn't legal. Mere scraping, on the other hand, is just a ToS violation at worst.

    1. Re:How curious... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My thoughts as well, I routinely get articles from behind paywalls just by messaging friends that have access and getting them to download them for me...

    2. Re:How curious... by Kindgott · · Score: 1

      According to one of the articles I'd seen, his status as a Fellow of the Harvard School of Ethics would have allowed him access to JSTOR. If true, one wonders why he went through all the trouble.

      --
      If there's anything more important than my ego around here, I want it caught and shot immediately.
    3. Re:How curious... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      If he was crashing servers, his rate-limiting was probably a little on the lax side, which is presumably didn't want directly associated with his account; but that still doesn't explain why he wouldn't just go with the distributed approach, along with a dash of patience.

    4. Re:How curious... by Amouth · · Score: 1

      only thing i can think of is to avoid having this actual name attached to it..

      but i do find odd is that it took so long for the sysadmins to stop him.. sorry but hiding it under a cardboard box and coming back and swapping drives.

      if it was transferring enough data for the admins to take notice and to "block the ip" they should have recognized it was an internal IP and found it physically.. follow the traffic to the switch and follow the cable..

      this isn't that hard to do - hell they had the luxury of knowing information about the rogue device to start with

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    5. Re:How curious... by formfeed · · Score: 1

      I routinely get articles from behind paywalls just by messaging friends.

      Once you involve friends it's not just cyber terrorism, you are now a cyber terrorist cell

    6. Re:How curious... by cancer4xmas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This isn't the first time Swartz has spidered a site in order to download the content hosted there. In 2009, he went after the PACER system which hosts court records. While those are public documents, they're behind a per-page paywall. His python script was probably reused from before, just s/pacer.gov/jstor.org/g. See: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/10/swartz-fbi/

      When you're the creator of the Open Library project, liberating a few million articles from behind a rather expensive paywall is, at the very least, quite circumstantially indicative of what your intentions might be. While I personally think access to such document repositories for scientific journals is priced way too high, most people can go to public or university libraries to do any research they might want to do. Breaking into a wiring closet, getting MIT's access to JSTOR cut off for days, spoofing your MAC address, getting shut off, spoofing your MAC address again, and still continuing on downloading is not the way to go about trying to affect change the way he wanted to. Smart kid buried under an avalanche of dumb.

    7. Re:How curious... by lamona · · Score: 1

      According to JSTOR "130 Public Libraries in 32 countries participate in JSTOR." According to the American Library Association there are about 16,000 public libraries in the US. So the actual number of public libraries that provide access to JSTOR is very, very low. SOME people who live close to PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES may be able to access JSTOR, but most of the US public (much less the rest of the world) is SOL.

      --
      I just read /. for the amusing .sigs
    8. Re:How curious... by rusl · · Score: 1

      I agree. The claim that this sort of privatising of public records does not diminish access is false and self serving ---- what is the JSTOR business model? Why do they make revenue? Sure, people should get paid for providing work to enable access. But if the only way to do that is to effectively privatise the data then put in a few caveats that the elite (at universities) can potentially have free access... that is just the wrong direction. That is adding a new sublevel to public domain, one that is private, essentially. JSTOR may be nice and non-profit and all that but where do they get the right to be exclusive gatekeepers to what isn't really theirs?

      --
      Stupidity is its own reward.
  8. A good read by Flector · · Score: 1

    summarized: A fellow at the Harvard Center for Ethics engaged in rampant downloads of JSTOR's (MIT's) document library under false identities and without authorization.

  9. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  10. Mirroring is a crime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mirroring a web site is wire fraud? What?

  11. Interestingly enough by airfoobar · · Score: 1
    The Demand Progress website says:

    JSTOR has settled any claims against Aaron, explained they’ve suffered no loss or damage, and asked the government not to prosecute. Indeed, it's not JSTOR suing but the USA government.

    Seems like someone's stepped on the wrong toes... Kind of reminds me of Assange and Strauss-Kahn. Why yes, this tinfoil hat goes with my tinfoil shoes.

  12. if he is guilty, what is google and facebook? by decora · · Score: 3

    jesus christ, have you ever had your shit auto-filled in by facebook? do you remember authorizing that shit?

    this whole thing is an assault on the intelligence of the public. it is absolutely outrageous abuse of power. the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act is being rolled up like a stick and used as a battering ram against the First Amendment. this administration is completely out of control.

    1. Re:if he is guilty, what is google and facebook? by mikelieman · · Score: 1

      Campaign Contributors?

      --
      Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
    2. Re:if he is guilty, what is google and facebook? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Inquiry: how is the First Amendment applicable here?

      How is the government preventing Schwarz from peaceable assembling and or discussing current government affairs?
      Or, if it is the religious angle, are you saying the government is actively restricting this man's religious rights? If the latter, how?

    3. Re:if he is guilty, what is google and facebook? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this administration is completely out of control.

      Clearly this is directly attributable to the Obama administration! Surely if McCain or Palin were president they'd step in and put an end to this travesty! After all, Republicans have so much support from the students and staff at MIT...

    4. Re:if he is guilty, what is google and facebook? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, so this is a conspiracy by Facebook?

      No, it's actually one by Obama? This is a first amendment issue? Does Obama control Facebook?

      Sounds like someone's been skipping their pills. Head back to reddit; they like their zealots frothing at the mouth.

  13. MIT already settled; the government is just mad by mykos · · Score: 4, Insightful

    MIT doesn't care, but the fact that he's very critical of the government makes him a prime target for shoehorning accusations onto him to shut him and his site up.

    1. Re:MIT already settled; the government is just mad by gad_zuki! · · Score: 1

      Yeah, he clearly a victim of a massive conspiracy! A site that I've never heard of that has content indistinguishable from r/politics is suddenly under attack from the DOJ?

      You right-wing loons will believe anything that makes Obama look bad.

    2. Re:MIT already settled; the government is just mad by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      He wasn't as well known as he wanted, so the best way to solve that is to do something to get arrested. Really, I don't know who this guy is and I don't care.

      And I'm frankly tired of the overblown hysteria about government conspiracies trying to shut up tiny blogs. This has nothing to do with politics: they'll pile on all the charges that they can think of onto anyone they arrest, the shotgun approach is a very common approach. Ie, tack on larger and lesser charges, this way you have a higher chance of a conviction somewhere. This is not a conspiracy this is instead just your average prosecutor aiming to get more promotion points.

    3. Re:MIT already settled; the government is just mad by mykos · · Score: 1

      Yeah, he clearly a victim of a massive conspiracy! A site that I've never heard of that has content indistinguishable from r/politics is suddenly under attack from the DOJ?

      You right-wing loons will believe anything that makes Obama look bad.

      I didn't know being anti-authoritarianism and pro-consumer were right-wing issues.
      Apparently you've never read DemandProgress.org or anything I've posted, because you're wrong on both counts.

    4. Re:MIT already settled; the government is just mad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just to point out, Aaron Swartz (and presumably his supporters) is left wing, not right wing.

    5. Re:MIT already settled; the government is just mad by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Yeah, he clearly a victim of a massive conspiracy! A site that I've never heard of that has content indistinguishable from r/politics is suddenly under attack from the DOJ?

      A single DoJ lawsuit does not a massive conspiracy make!

  14. steve jobs got started by selling blueboxes by decora · · Score: 2, Interesting

    JSTOR doesn't want it prosecuted

    and neither does anyone with a shred of common sense.

    1. Re:steve jobs got started by selling blueboxes by hyperizer · · Score: 2

      JSTOR doesn't want it prosecuted

      That's according to Swartz's own Think Progress. JSTOR's statement is more ambiguous.

    2. Re:steve jobs got started by selling blueboxes by Hutz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Perhaps the SysAdmins at MIT want it prosecuted. Since he kept invading their network.

    3. Re:steve jobs got started by selling blueboxes by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      Man, that is one evasive-as-hell statement. Time for us academics to put pressure on journal editors who have clout with JSTOR to clarify what their role is.

    4. Re:steve jobs got started by selling blueboxes by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      I like how JSTOR starts by saying that it can't comment on the case, and then it comments on the case.

    5. Re:steve jobs got started by selling blueboxes by spasm · · Score: 1

      Seriously. JSTOR is non-profit in the same way IKEA is non-profit. I use JSTOR a lot because I have to, but I really wish someone else had been first to the table on the 'scan and OCR back-issues of journals' game.

    6. Re:steve jobs got started by selling blueboxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I still own a physical bluebox that was working in [my country] up until the early 90s.

      Posting anonymously since I still want to be able to pass US immigration from time to time. Times have changed.

  15. more evidence the CFAA is unconstitutional by decora · · Score: 2, Interesting

    the computer fraud and abuse act is one of the worst laws ever passed in the history of the country.

    it is also being used against Bradley Manning and the Wikileaks cambridge people

    it was also used against Thomas Drake

    they also tried to use it against the Myspace suicide-woman

    1. Re:more evidence the CFAA is unconstitutional by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Good lord, where exactly is this evidence that it's unconstitutional? The fact that you don't like it isn't exactly a constitutional argument. Also, Thomas Drake was acquitted, and citing someone guilty of treason and a grown woman who convinced a teenage girl to kill herself as your "defense" isn't really as convincing as you seem to think it is.

    2. Re:more evidence the CFAA is unconstitutional by Trepidity · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's unconstitutionally vague, because courts are completely unsure how to draw the line between which ToS violations are criminal and which are not.

      A non-vague possibility would be that all ToS violations are a federal "hacking" crime. For example, evading a Slashdot ban might be a felony. But few courts seem to want to do that. So which ToS are enforceable and which aren't?

      Let's say that I'm on a university network without breaking into it (which I am). If I slurp 4 million JSTOR documents, this is clearly a violation of JSTOR's terms of service. But I have not in any meaningful way "hacked into" JSTOR; I accessed it from my university network, which I had legitimate access to. Yet it appears, under the theory advanced here, that I would be guilty of a federal crime, "stealing" 4 million documents from JSTOR, because my access went above the use JSTOR authorized me to make of their service, and therefore constitutes computer trespassing.

    3. Re:more evidence the CFAA is unconstitutional by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      worst? Just wait until the Protect IP act, and ACTA, and do I really need to go on?

    4. Re:more evidence the CFAA is unconstitutional by Gerzel · · Score: 1

      Of course since TOS can be changed often at and time and with little to no notice...

      There really aught to be a good set of rules as to what shrink-wrap and click-through documents can get an individual to agree to and what they cannot. A good standardized outline of what is required to give consent online and having greater requirements for items of greater importance.

    5. Re:more evidence the CFAA is unconstitutional by tunapez · · Score: 1

      Ahem... FISA was not nominated. Considering all of the ex post facto absolution, it should get honorary mention.

      The Gramm Leach Bliley Act which gutted the market protections put in place after the last great heist, er...depression, gets my vote as "Worst Ever".

      --
      Imagination drew in bold strokes, instantly serving hopes and fears, while knowledge advanced by slow increments...
    6. Re:more evidence the CFAA is unconstitutional by EdIII · · Score: 1

      It all ultimately leads to the BECAUSE I SAID SO law which, much like the Crane Stance, there can be no defend.

    7. Re:more evidence the CFAA is unconstitutional by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the fact that it isn't part of one of the enumerated powers, you fuck

    8. Re:more evidence the CFAA is unconstitutional by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      what market protections did gramm leach bliley remove? preventing 2 companies from merging was hardly our issue in this last run up. Citi failed because the bank invested it's excess cash in bad securities. I'm not sure how not having an insurance arm would have changed that. And the existence of AIG, Fannie, Freddie, Lehman, ML, Bear, etc would have been completely legal before the act as well.

    9. Re:more evidence the CFAA is unconstitutional by tunapez · · Score: 1

      Proprietary trading restrictions. Commodity prices across the board trending up 300%+ since early 2000's. Look at (m)any 20 year commodity graphs. It's curious global/political/natural 'disruptions' as well as China's voracious appetite were not as volatile prior to '99. Sure the dollar is weak, very much so, but is it 1/3 or 1/4 the value it was 10 years ago?

      Volcker Rule Insurance?

      --
      Imagination drew in bold strokes, instantly serving hopes and fears, while knowledge advanced by slow increments...
  16. read another article by FunkyELF · · Score: 2

    ... and it seems like once you start downloading too much it kicks you off or makes you contact someone.
    Seems like he evaded that little scheme and they're charging him with that.
    Insane... it'd be like charging someone for disabling pop-ups.

    1. Re:read another article by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Informative

      I was under the(apparently mistaken) impression that that ugly little notion had been settled:

      Back during that 'myspace suicide case' drama, the prosecution made the argument that, by creating an account under a false name(which the defendant definitely had), she had violated the myspace terms of service(which, she also definitely had); but then went on to claim that accessing a website in a way contrary to the ToS was a violation of the CFAA. Thankfully, that... exceptionally broad... interpretation was shot down.

      Whatever he was doing in a locked wiring closet may well have been some sort of trespassing; but ToS violations are a matter between you and the entity(and generally only worth terminating your relationship) not you and the feds.

    2. Re:read another article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well in an ideal world people would be punished for evading pop-ups as well. Perhaps someday we will live in a society free from infocrime.

  17. Re:Obama needs to be impeached by Dan667 · · Score: 1

    Swartz appears to be an actual criminal

  18. its vagueness and broadness only proves by decora · · Score: 4, Insightful

    how pointless it is.

    its like having a law that says 'its illegal to bad things on a computer'. what the hell does that even mean? its complete bullshit, which is proved by the wide variety of people that have been prosecuted under it.

    Drake was not acquitted, he plead guilty to one misdemeanor under the CFAA (instead of 5 felonies under the Espionage Act) - the point of his case is that the CFAA made it criminal to simply take unclassified information and have it in your house. UNCLASSIFIED.

    now the CFAA applies to women telling people to commit suicide? AND to a guy who downloads from JSTOR? And to a guy who jailbreaks his playstation? What the fuck kind of a law is that?

    1. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's the kind of law that is searching for a purpose.

    2. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by MozeeToby · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't understand why computer laws are so hard. My computer is my property, as is the data stored on it. Accessing that data without my permission is trespassing. Destroying data is destruction of private property. Running software on it without my permission is conversion. Using my computer to lie to me to get my money is fraud. Threatening to delete my files unless I buy your software is blackmail. Sending threatening messages to me is assault.

      Why is this so freaking hard!? We don't need laws specifically for computers or any other piece of technology, what we need is for politicians and justices to understand the fundamental concept that data is property and a computer is the just the physical (and arguably, least important) part of the system.

    3. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by Hazel+Bergeron · · Score: 1

      Data is not owned. Consider an infinitely long random sequence of bits - who owns it?

    4. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by Paracelcus · · Score: 1

      Then maybe you should have encrypted it and kept it behind a firewall, no?

      If I leave my front door wide open, at sidewalk level, leave home, on a busy downtown street, how long will it take before somebody helps themselves to my stuff?

      Common sense, protect your shit!

      --
      I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
    5. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by NiceGeek · · Score: 2

      Still doesn't make it legal for someone to walk in and take your shit.

    6. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by dave562 · · Score: 1

      I burned all my mod points yesterday. Please +5 this post. It is the most insightful thing I've seen in a while.

      Off-topic, but the same also applies to drug laws. We do not need a whole slew of laws to deal with the problems that come from drug abuse. Someone who is high beats someone up? Charge them with assault. They steal from you to finance their drug habit. Charge them with theft. They're high and they crash into someone, driving under the influence. That person dies? Manslaughter (or worse).

    7. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      But they would get busted for theft, not breaking & entering (and theft).

    8. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by slimjim8094 · · Score: 2

      Data is owned. You're making the classic mistake of thinking about the law in engineering/mathematical terms - don't worry, we (us nerds) do this all the time, so you're in good company. The mathematical argument of "if I set a random number generator I could come up with the AACS encryption key/Britney Spears song/child porn" doesn't hold much water in a court.

      The analogy of data-as-property is much closer to how (most) data exists, and is used. A digital photo is closely analogous to a film photo, except that it's easier to distribute (and free and perfect to do so). This does change some aspects of the law, but you still won't get any sympathy by claiming "I could've arrived at that upskirt photo (with my EXIF data) by accident!"

      Because you didn't. And that's the real point - sure, data in a mathematical sense is a number, but you arrived at it by either an act of creation or input; you drew a cartoon in Paint, or you scanned a drawn image. So the fact that it's digital - while it matters for some important things, like copying (a copy of a tape, or a photocopy of a book, has a built-in "lifetime" - it can't be perfectly duplicated ad infinitum) - the fact that it's digital doesn't matter when it comes to questions of ownership.

      What it comes down to is, the data on my computer is my data, and I expect the law to come to my aid if you steal it. Even if you didn't destroy my copy, the value in it being only in my possession has been taken away irrevocably, so the word theft applies.

      I agree with the GP.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    9. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by chaboud · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bingo!

      It can't be hacking if no hacking was necessary. Using a computer interface on a network, as intended, to do something that someone only slightly didn't want, but allowed, doesn't really feel like a computer crime to me.

    10. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >I don't understand why computer laws are so hard.
      Obviously.
      >My computer is my property,
      True.
      > as is the data stored on it.
      False. Only physical things (and financial instruments) are property under the law, therefore data can not be property, because it is not a tangible object.
      > Accessing that data without my permission is trespassing.
      False. If someone doesn't enter your property to access your data, such as accessing it by sending messages to your computer over the internet, then it can not be trespass.

      > Destroying data is destruction of private property.
      False. Data is not property, only the physical medium that contains it.
      > Running software on it without my permission is conversion.
      False.
      > Using my computer to lie to me to get my money is fraud.
      True.
      > Threatening to delete my files unless I buy your software is blackmail.
      True.
      > Sending threatening messages to me is assault.
      False. Though in certain limited cases there may be some basis.

      >Why is this so freaking hard!?
      Because of people like you.

    11. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if you didn't destroy my copy, the value in it being only in my possession has been taken away irrevocably, so the word theft applies.

      Much like it doesn't apply for copyright infringement, it doesn't apply here. When someone says "theft," what do you think most people think it means? Someone came and took something that you previously owned (not thoughts).

      Universally, you do not own anything at all. It's all in your mind.

    12. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by mikiN · · Score: 1

      There is a critical flaw in your argument.
      We are talking here about documents constituting scientific knowledge, not kiddie porn or pretty pics.
      The value of scientific knowledge increases when it is disseminated to a larger audience, since more brains can build more knowledge based on it, a classical example of a multiplier effect.

      Instead, your reasoning points to a fundamental flaw in the whole process of artificial scarcity (of knowledge in this case), which decreases the total potential value of this knowledge, e.g. the profits the publishers make while limiting its dissemination can never outweigh the value of future work based on it were it disseminated freely.
      This takes into account the added value by the publisher claiming peer review, as peer review can easily be verified by having the peers cryptographically sign the documents they review, and using the tree of trust as well as the citation index as a merit rating system. Both can be implemented in a modified BitTorrent tracker.

      I'm really not in the mood for spewing citations, do a Google search on "artificial scarcity" or have a look at Wikipedia: Economic actions that create artificial scarcity

      Publishers are long overdue in looking for a better business model.

      --
      The Hacker's Guide To The Kernel: Don't panic()!
    13. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by mikiN · · Score: 1

      s/tree of trust/web of trust/

      --
      The Hacker's Guide To The Kernel: Don't panic()!
    14. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      That's not the point. The point is that data that is privately held and selectively distributed is just as much the property of the distributor as a car that is loaned out. I absolutely agree with you that research should be public, but "it would be better off free!" is not a justification for taking away that ownership by force. If you believe in fairness, the person who takes that control away should be punished in the same fashion as the person who steals my bank account information off of my computer, or my car from my driveway. They have stripped the value from the goods that I have been in possession of.

      And that's all my point was. Not that privatized research is a good thing, or anything like that. I do happen to think that JSTOR is the wrong target - they don't charge for profit or fun, but to pay the licensing costs. This chucklehead who's been sued could've gone straight to the journals themselves and scraped the articles, and JSTOR wouldn't be involved.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    15. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by Hazel+Bergeron · · Score: 1

      I absolutely agree with you that research should be public, but "it would be better off free!" is not a justification for taking away that ownership by force.

      That betrays a false assumption often made by Internet libertarian types. The default is not to have protected property - the default is for stuff to merely exist and for it to end up with whoever is strongest and wants to have it. Any more sophisticated notion of ownership requires force to protect. To argue that it's only "force" when someone takes something from you but not "force" when the police stop someone else from taking something is deliberately redefining "force" to suit your viewpoint.

      Our current notions of property exist because they benefit enough of society that people have approved the appropriate force required to enforce those notions. If some modification of the notion of property is proposed which does not benefit society, it is entirely inappropriate to approve the force required to deploy it.

      Applied to this situation, there should be no protection against dissemination of scientific research. You're welcome to ask nicely but the people, i.e. the government, have no good reason to help you out.

    16. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Define "permission".

      "Trespassing" is normally covered by civil crime and refers to a complex interplay of implied and explicit rights.

      Data is not property. And even if it was you'd have the same problem with implicit and explicit permission whenever it was used or transferred.

      Same for "running software". Have you permitted every company that runs software on your machine explicit permission to do so? Does downloading a driver imply that permission? What if that driver is packaged with malware? Define "malware".

      Why is it so hard? Because, as 10 seconds of thought should show, it is hard.

    17. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by randyleepublic · · Score: 0

      This is so freaking hard because every legal issue has become based upon irrational analysis of reality. It started with drug laws at around the turn of the last century and metastasized from there. No wonder we all feel like terminal cancer patients - we are one!

      --
      Social Credit would solve everything...
    18. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by Paracelcus · · Score: 1

      Yup!

      --
      I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
    19. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sending threatening messages to me is assault.

      I was with you until that last one... aren't threatening computer messages the same as verbal ones?

      Also while data may be property, it does need some of its own laws. Why? Because if I copy your music files while your not home, you still have them the next time you turn on your computer. If I hotwire your car on the other hand...

    20. Re:its vagueness and broadness only proves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Black people used to be "property".

      Data wants to be free, yo.

  19. Re:Obama needs to be impeached by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

    Manning is also a criminal. He violated MILITARY law as a member of the military.

    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  20. Re:Obama needs to be impeached by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

    When did breaking into a locked equipment cabinet become free speech?
     
    What Manning did was also a violation of the law, military law.

    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  21. Re:Obama needs to be impeached by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kind of like Michael Kristopeit, then. In that case... yeah, burn him at the stake.

  22. Re:Obama needs to be impeached by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is not what I voted for.

    If you voted for Obama, then yes it is what you voted for.
    Failure to recognize a shyster at the polls is your own shortcoming.

  23. being an asshole does not merit 35 years in prison by decora · · Score: 0

    holy christ man, the world has gone fucking insane.

    He is being threatened with half his life in prison for violating a fucking EULA.

    If this precedent is set, we are all fucked for life. Especially when the next "Conservative" administration comes into office and decides we all need anal probes to save us from gay terrorism.

  24. Re:Obama needs to be impeached by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No he doesn't, not at all on the facts as presented by the prosecution. And the parent comment appears to have been made by an insane person. Can't really tag the President for every prosecution made by every prosecutor. They're mostly independent or supervised by local authorities. The President is not at the top of a hierarchy of everything.

  25. Re:Obama needs to be impeached by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    Doesn't help that he has hardcore-authoritarian Eric Holder as AG. That was one of the first signs that post-election Obama was going to be very different from pre-election Obama.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  26. and how is that different from Google Books? by decora · · Score: 1

    they had no authorization to engage in massive copyright violation, scanning millions of copyrighted books that they had no right to, specifically violating the exact same laws that drove Kinko's to lose massive amount of university campus business in the 1980s.

    and yet.

    Google got away with it. Google books is there for all to see. journals, advertisements, the books, the newspapers, the articles, all copyrighted, all obtained by google without permission.

    JSTOR did alot of the same stuff. There is no way in hell they owned the copyright to all the stuff they scanned.

    They also probably broke some labor laws when they outsourced the whole scanning operation to the Dominican Republic.

    this guy is going to get 35 years so that Obama can prove he is 'tough on leakers'? because Eric Holder lost the Thomas Drake case? What the ?@#

    1. Re:and how is that different from Google Books? by d4fseeker · · Score: 1

      Well, obviously Obama wasn't lying when he stated "Yes, we can"
      Yes, we (the government) can (screw you over and over)

    2. Re:and how is that different from Google Books? by __aagbwg300 · · Score: 1

      they had no authorization to engage in massive copyright violation, scanning millions of copyrighted books that they had no right to, specifically violating the exact same laws that drove Kinko's to lose massive amount of university campus business in the 1980s.

      Google's approach did not involve breaking and entering. Google didn't plug in rogue devices on secured networks, engage in spoofing, unauthorized network access, evade physical security (kudos for masking your face with a bike helmet) and voluntarily circumvent security measures designed to protect the network after admins found him. Google DID scan a bunch of books and they subsequently settled with the copyright holders. Google certainly put themselves on the hook for civil penalties and in the process pissed off a bunch of authors, but they didn't do any of the above.

      So to answer your question, this is nothing like what Google did.

    3. Re:and how is that different from Google Books? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait wait wait wait...

      So the original material is under copyright and JSTOR violated that copyright, so the solution is to actively violate MIT's and JSTOR's regulations and computers to copy said copyrighted material for distribution? Doesn't that further violate the original copyright?

      In short: two wrongs make a right, you're saying?

      Now, perhaps JSTOR should also be charged for having the material in the first place, but how does that nullify Schwarz's breaking-and-entering and violation of existing copyright?

    4. Re:and how is that different from Google Books? by twistedcubic · · Score: 1

      Civil penalties? If Google were an individual doing the same, there would definitely be criminal charges. Everyone knows this.

    5. Re:and how is that different from Google Books? by Rakishi · · Score: 1

      JSTOR did alot of the same stuff.

      No it didn't.

      There is no way in hell they owned the copyright to all the stuff they scanned.

      No but they did get licences from the publishers who do own the copyrights.

    6. Re:and how is that different from Google Books? by Byrel · · Score: 1

      Civil penalties? If Google were an individual doing the same, there would definitely be criminal charges. Everyone knows this.

      Huh?!? Haven't you noticed that in nearly all cases like these (involving copyright) the criminal charges only apply to the method of obtaining access to the data in question.

      This is a case in point; Aaron Swartz is charged with:
            wire fraud (fraud via interstate communication)
            computer fraud (accessing a protected computer "in excess of authorized access")
            unlawfully obtaining information from a protected computer (again, the "in excess of authorized access" bit)
            recklessly damaging a protected computer (DDOS)

      The first three are specifically related to how he got the information; the third, to being a moron, and not limiting his bandwidth usage.

      Google did none of these; they legally obtained books, and then proceeded to, arguably, violate the copyright. Because they obtained the information legally in the first place, they are only liable for civil charges. Same would apply to you or me if we did the same thing.

    7. Re:and how is that different from Google Books? by rusl · · Score: 1

      He wasn't a moron, he mistakenly assumed the network was up to the task of supplying the information at a fast rate. They were the morons who weren't capable of that on a network that is supposed to be fast.

      --
      Stupidity is its own reward.
  27. Re:Obama needs to be impeached by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

    I don't know about you but I'm pretty sure that the President of the United States does not have a hand in every prosecution case. Also what offense can you cite that the President has committed that would warrant impeachment? Calling for impeachment just becaue you don't like who was prosecuted doesn't mean the President committed an impeachable offense.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  28. Re:Obama needs to be impeached by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So are most of the people on wall street, heading up the FED and taking bailout money, but I don't seen any effort to indict those assholes. And they did a lot worse.

    He's a criminal in the same sense that I am a criminal because I once drank under the age of 21, or you might be if you never returned a library book. This is minor stuff, and the only reason for all the effort is to silence political speech.

  29. I don't get this at all by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

    I cannot make sense of this.

    Allegedly, Swartz broke into a computer closet in order to download documents you can download from a Website, and he downloaded a lot of them. Why would he go to that much trouble?

    Supposedly, MIT and JSTOR didn't press want to press charges, but the state of Massachusetts is pressing charges anyway. Why?

    Some of the speculation here is that it's because Swartz was threatening to the government. I just read some of his articles; it seemed like good stuff from a moderate left. Left of the Democratic party? Sure, but so are thousands of activists, academics, and journalists. What's extraordinary about Swartz that would call for active persecution?

    1. Re:I don't get this at all by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Who cares what MIT or JSTOR thinks. This is criminal matter not a civil one. If they don't want to sue then that is their deal. The govement has a responcibility to its citizens to enforce the laws equally. If I broke into a closet at MIT I would get jail time even if I was just stealing soap.

    2. Re:I don't get this at all by FoolishOwl · · Score: 2

      No. Police don't arrest someone every time a crime appears to have been committed, nor do prosecutors prosecute every person arrested for a crime. They have discretion, and limited resources, and more apparent crimes than they can afford to investigate or prosecute. If the crime appears to be minor, and the victim doesn't want to press charges, or there's no victim, the police are likely to ignore it. What prosecutors actually prosecute is a policy decision -- which often means, a political decision.

    3. Re:I don't get this at all by tftp · · Score: 1

      What prosecutors actually prosecute is a policy decision -- which often means, a political decision.

      Or, if you believe the old man Occam, it often is a matter of convenience. Prosecutors need convictions. It's hard to get a conviction in case when one gangbanger assaulted another gangbanger and 100 witnesses "haven't seen a thing." But it's trivial to get conviction on mere technical grounds, and a "hacker case" may have more public visibility than a common assault. If the prosecutor has the goods on this guy, it costs the DA nothing to go ahead and get an easy conviction (or an even easier plea deal.)

    4. Re:I don't get this at all by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      That makes sense.

    5. Re:I don't get this at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the owner can choose afterwards that it wasn't theft.

    6. Re:I don't get this at all by randyleepublic · · Score: 0

      If you broke into a closet and stole soap, you'd be charged with trespass and petty theft, and given probation on a first offence, not Federal PMITAP.

      --
      Social Credit would solve everything...
    7. Re:I don't get this at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a difference - you cannot undermine people's livelihoods with a single bar of soap.

  30. That would be true EXCEPT by decora · · Score: 1

    that Obama personally appointed Lanny Breuer, who is in charge of alot of these 'leak' cases.

    And as commander of the armed forces, he is directly responsible for the fate of Bradley Manning.

    i dont know who is involved in the Swartz case... so maybe i am crazy on that one.

    But the argument that the president has nothing to do with federal prosecutions is a bit off the mark. He sets the tone and sets the priorities, he hires people, knowing their records, and he also allows people to stay in their jobs (like William Welch) even after they make a lot of bizarre mistakes.

    i thought it was crazy too, until i started reading up on the facts of the cases. Obama is the worst First Amendment president in modern history.

  31. Re:being an asshole does not merit 35 years in pri by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Decora, stop spamming with all this irrational crap about how horrible the government is for prosecuting a guy who (if the allegations are true, which seems likely given that he was caught red handed) violated the terms of service of an academic journal service (not a EULA) in an attempt to steal the entire archive. This is theft. I don't know what kind of an "activist" he is, maybe he thinks he's trying to reform the economics of academic journals or something (which are a bit screwed up), but systematic theft (and DoS to legitimate users due to the way he operated) is not the way to solve that particular problem.

    Also, where are you getting 35 years in prison from? Are you just pulling that out of your butt like everything else you've said so far?

  32. Re:Obama needs to be impeached by ErikZ · · Score: 1

    You always get burnt like this once with elections. Then you learn you need to check out your candidate's political history.

    What bills they've created or co-authored. How they've voted in the past. Where they're getting the bulk of their campaign contributions. etc.

    It still burns. You never get over the Candidate standing up there, saying *exactly* how to fix things and make things better. Then doing none of it once they get into office.

    --
    Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
  33. Re:Obama needs to be impeached by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

  34. err stupid topic? by fireylord · · Score: 1

    This is not 'piracy', stupid topic

  35. Re:being an asshole does not merit 35 years in pri by Nadaka · · Score: 2

    Theft is removing property of another person from their possession and control. Copying is NEVER theft.

  36. lol @ MIT by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

    The fact that MIT of all places couldn't figure out which switch an IP address/Mac Address was hitting them from, within their own network, speaks volumes about the quality of the IT staff working there. I can think of dozens of different ways I could have stopped him right off the top of my head, and tracking down the location of the computer would have been even easier unless he had plugged in a wireless bridge or something. EVEN THEN, finding it wouldn't have been that hard.

    1. Re:lol @ MIT by MeateaW · · Score: 1

      MIT weren't fighting it. JSTOR was. I believe JSTOR is a seperate entitiy that MIT have a connection to. Sounds more like MIT weren't paying attention to the squeals coming from JSTOR

    2. Re:lol @ MIT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, there are many ways; but on a network of 120,000 computers, stopping someone from doing something annoying (i.e. spidering) takes a back seat to the bigger day-to-day issues like compromises, intrusion/extrusion detection and risk management - essentially protecting MIT's own assets, not someone else's... spidering of journal sites happens all the time, so it's an annoyance (it's MIT, people know how to write 20 line scripts to do this). It's only when the person comes back again after disabling of their MAC address, and then comes back again, AND they're evading rate-limiting on JSTOR's side, AND the librarians start squaking because they don't understand the onus should really be on the journal sites to protect their assets, AND it's not like you're monitoring for how many journals are downloaded/sec from each IP so you have to wait for a journal to ask you for help (see last point), THEN physically finding the person on the 120,000 node network becomes something you spend some time on.

    3. Re:lol @ MIT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are forgetting that his laptop was under a cardboard box, rendering it completely undetectable.

  37. Re:being an asshole does not merit 35 years in pri by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Read your definition again: copying is theft by removing material of another person from their control. If they authorize you to do so, fine, they accept the risks that may result, but if you are not authorized, you are stealing material of which you are not entitled because it is not under the owners control with the owner's blessing.

  38. Slap on the wrist speeding ticket by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While I am only going off the paraphrased articles mentioned in the story, I still have to think that this is mostly a slap on the wrist offence (but let him suffer in jail for a bit until the court date perhaps).

    Basically all he did was spoof mac addresses to get new ip's to continue to get around him, essentially mirroring, the whole site. Sure, it puts extra load on things, and yes he was spoofing something, but lets be honest, he was still probably only using a single IP at once time (which he is allowed, assumedly), and connecting at the full rate that his network, and the destination servers _allowed_.

    The servers crashed on 3 occassions? Why? Most likely because of a half assed linux install that ran out of logging space or hit swap or something. Is it your fault if the telco crashes and every phone in your province/state goes offline, because you made a call during some freak chance time of the night while they were running and upgrade or something? No, fix your setup :)

    Now, I do think that the act of hiding harddrives, or essentially network attached storage, devices plugged into a switch he probably didn't have permission to do (likely cause of its ability to evade administrative restrictions on connectivity and/or bandwidth, etc), which is why i think a little bit of jail in the clink is justified, if only to scare some sense into him. But I only think the courts should be lenient due to the nature of what he did; ignore speed limits and download something he had access to anyways.

    Basically, at worst, this should be considered a speeding ticket, but someone going really really fast :)

  39. Re:Obama needs to be impeached by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have you ever met Herr Schwartz?

    Going by OP's numerous and incresingly unhinged posts on the article, I'd say its Swartz's mother. If not that, then someone else who would act in complete defiance of reason and facts.

  40. Re:being an asshole does not merit 35 years in pri by Nadaka · · Score: 1

    By making a copy, you gain control of a copy, not the original. The owner of the original still has full control over his property.

    For it to be theft, I would have to delete, destroy or otherwise remove your ability to make use of your copy.

    It can be a license violation, infringing a state sanctioned monopoly or possibly even considered trespass, but NEVER theft.

  41. Re:Obama needs to be impeached by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Look, what part of "TEH GUMMURMINT IS EVUL" did you fail to understand? The GP made this assertion* quite clear. Therefore, all aspects of the US government are a part of this investigation. Do you know nothing about tinfoil hat law?

    *: Not "point". "Assertion".

  42. Re:Obama needs to be impeached by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    breaking-and-entering is minor stuff?

  43. It's a border by suomynonAyletamitlU · · Score: 1

    I don't understand why computer laws are so hard. My computer is my property, as is the data stored on it. Accessing that data without my permission is trespassing.

    You're right, it's your property. And unfortunately, because your data exists in abstract space, the government can't rightfully claim eminent domain; that means that your computer is the gateway to the sovereign nation of Yourstuff. However, the government has no treaties with Yourstuff and knows that several other sovereign nations of similar creeds and colors consort with criminals. However, because there are so ungodly many sovereign nations of Hisstuff and Herstuff, the nation can't possibly have individual treaties with each.

    When the government attempts to impose its will against these many and disparate nations, a hidden conspiracy sweeps through all of them, giving them all tools to fight any incursion. So, argues the government, in order to stop these insurrections and allow us to find the criminals hidden among the many Hisstuffs and Herstuffs, we have to control the gateway--the hardware and the people who own it.

    It's an understandable conceit, but it's not in their authority to do that, and until there's some kind of fair and equitable contract between the computer user and some kind of government-to-computer authority, it shouldn't be. That sort of power should only be handed out when the rules of what can't be done are laid out.

  44. Re:being an asshole does not merit 35 years in pri by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But with data, there is no difference between the copy and the original other than timestamps.

    I consider this to be in the same general area as plagiarism - the original work is not affected yet one is improperly capitalizing on intellectual material in a manner they should not.

    Is there a word for using others material without warrant? Trespass details the improper access, but what about the subsequent dissemination?

  45. Re:being an asshole does not merit 35 years in pri by MegaFur · · Score: 1

    Read the indictment itself. IF the indictment is factually correct, Aaron's method of acquiring the articles included stashing a laptop in a wire closet directly connected to a switch. IF the indictment is factually correct, he did more than merely violate a EULA. He went well out of his way to get copies of these articles--at various times causing the JSTOR service to be unavailable to everyone else on MIT's network because the servers were busy trying to meet all the requests from Aaron's laptop.

    I agree that I don't know if the guy actually deserves 35 years in prison. I don't know if he even deserves one year in prison. But IF the indictment is factually correct, then this guy DID download a plethora of documents that he wasn't supposed to be able to download. And he went to some great lengths to circumvent the mechanisms that JSTOR and MIT had in place to prevent such activity. That would be Computer Fraud and whether we like it or not, that's a criminal offense.

    One of the nasty points about trying to actively fight the government is that a lot of the folks that are really passionate about it wind up breaking the law at some point. The problem is that, that opens them up to counter-attack from said government.

    You should definitely not trust the spin coming from Demand Progress. They're public statement is biased almost to the point of being useless, or at least it was when I read it 6 hours ago. You should check out the actual indictment document itself and read all the bits where Aaron is alleged to have been seen sneeking in a side door to get to the wiring closet with his bicycle helmet held up over his face so the camera can't see his face.

    If that's what really happened, then IMHO the dude has opened himself up to a whole world of criminal prosecution. It's a bad time to be Aaron Swartz.

    --
    Furry cows moo and decompress.
  46. Re:Obama needs to be impeached by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No he doesn't, not at all on the facts as presented by the prosecution.

    So according to you, breaking into buildings to install laptops and hard drives in wiring closets, attaching them to a LAN, and using them to copy a data archive involves 0 crimes? You really can't see that somewhere in there the law is almost certainly being broken?

    The government PDF says Swartz was observed holding a bike helmet in front of his face during one of his building entries. I don't think he was under the same illusions you are concerning whether he was committing a crime.

  47. Re:being an asshole does not merit 35 years in pri by MegaFur · · Score: 1

    That's not the definition lawyers use. Or rather--that probably is the definition that lawyers use, but they define "property" in such a way that copying any artistic or technical work that's in a fixed form (including electronically stored movies, songs, and computer programs) does count as "taking" the property without permission.

    Now you can disagree with that definition if you want. That's fine. I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with that definition either. But the concept of copyright (literally the legal RlGHT to make COPIES of artistic or technical works in any fixed form--look it up) is written into the Constitution itself.

    If you ever get hauled into court by the RIAA, MPAA or some other over-powered Big Corp acronym and you try to tell them your 1.5 TB collection of mp3s and avis doesn't constitute stolen property because nothing was ever "removed", they'll laugh you right out of the court room while they hit you with a massive, massive fine just like all those little FBI warnings on DVDs have been promising you your whole life.

    --
    Furry cows moo and decompress.
  48. There is a simple answer to that by fireylord · · Score: 1

    He was an idiot.

    1. Re:There is a simple answer to that by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Quite possibly so. I just find the study of idiots and idiocy to be quite interesting(and, given their numbers and the fact that situational idiocy can crop up in basically anybody, also quite important).

      Thus, even if true, "He was an idiot." is really just the start of the exploration.

  49. Aaron Shwartz, you, and the " law" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What this is really about is incompetence and desperation. How can you unlawfully obtain information from a" protected" computer. If you can access the information then the computer isn't protected adequately . Splitting hairs-perhaps but isn't that the law in a nutshell?Secondly if the information is unlawfully obtained what are you actually saying, the obtaining of information from an obviously " unprotected " source is illegal or that the information is illegal in itself in which case it was illegally obtained in the first place.I know this appears absurd on the surface but it isn't. Illegality is determined immorally by a minority of elitists who only maintain power through legal intimidation and blackmail via an antiquated anti-democratic system the public in this alleged democracy are given no democratic freedom to challenge on mass. Can it really be accepted as legal that the law amounts to no more than an act of minority imposition upon the majority population without their consensual aggreement. Such consent cannot be asumed because it is unchallenged where there is no open mechanism whereby the mass have the practical means to challenge it en masse at the highest and lowest levels.This is the computer age and yet the majority still have no right to vote on policy and law through direct access via a Policy Referendum voting system, yet continue to vote for Party Policy. It is the Party here that is the real problem, for it is they who are shaping these disgusting laws and continue to do so for no other reason than to secure their own employment as Petty-Tyrranos.

  50. Re:being an asshole does not merit 35 years in pri by Nadaka · · Score: 1

    Copyright law does not grant the right to copy. It restricts your natural right to copy. Copying is not property, and copying can not be taken away from the author. Inherent in taking something away from the victim is that they no longer have it.

    How in any way did you read my statement that copying is not theft to mean that copyright infringement is not civilly actionable and occasionally a crime? My problem is with the god damn corruption of the English language.

    Piracy is taking ships by force at sea.
    Theft is taking the property of someone else away from them.
    Neither applies to copyright infringement which is the enforcement of an artificial monopoly.

  51. Re:Obama needs to be impeached by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Um, in the world of cyber-crime, yes, b&e is peanuts. For that matter, regular old b&e with no cyber-crime aspect is still peanuts. Cops really only give a shit after there is a whole bunch of break-ins in the same area, or if they're doing the breaking in while the homeowners are actually home.

    Minor stuff, the sort that you'd expect some probation and community service, at the worst a couple weeks or months in jail, and half-a-dozen repeat convictions before any serious consequences come about.

  52. on siding with power against yourself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What can one hope for humanity when slashdot readers agree that getting copies of publicly funded research for the purpose of further dissemination is somehow questionable behaviour? Nay, *criminal* behaviour.
    "Aye, he's trying to help people get information. Throw him in the brigg. Pff, the nerve of these peasants." And they all nod solemnly.

  53. What? by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

    Unless there was a ship carrying four million documents and he hoisted the jolly roger, he did NOT pirate them, attempted or otherwise.

    --
    Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
  54. There's always ignorance in a good bashing by Quila · · Score: 2

    In politics these days, what use are facts?

    Democrats and their fawning media (DailyKos Markos and PBS's Gwen Ifill -- a presidential debate moderator -- started it) blasted Sarah Palin as ignorant over her "Party like it's 1773" comment to tea party activists. Doesn't that ignorant slut know it's 1776?

    Then Republicans reminded them that she was referring to the Boston Tea Party, which did happen in 1773. So the Democrats are the ones without a clue.

    Yet the story remains repeated, just as the one about "I can see Russia from my house" is. Somehow, being informed of their own ignorance doesn't even help. Eleanor Clift on The McLauglin Group during the election:

    CLIFT: "And Palin said 'I can see Russia from my house.'"

    BUCHANAN: "No she didn't. That's what Tina Fey said on Saturday Night Live."

    CLIFT: "Well, that's what she meant to say."

    Now it doesn't even matter what a Republican actually says, only what the Democrats say Republican meant to say.

    1. Re:There's always ignorance in a good bashing by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      why 1776? her quote was something along the lines of "we haven't won yet, we can't party like it's 1773". My first thought was "what year did the revolutionary war end? 1783, I think she just missed it by a decade. that she is stupid nad the liberal commentators are equally stupid isn't very heartening. nor does it matter all that much.

      and didn't she attempt to imply that by being able to see russia from a random island in alaska gave her foreign policy credentials? When bush was coming from texas, he could literally make that argument with illegal aliens and heavy trade with Mexico. I'm not sure what her logic was.

  55. Think of it this way... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes I understand completely there is no real need for computer crimes, but that's not how it works for us. We didn't give you computers to empower you. What we give you is social change and that is to make things easier for us. As an example, we gave you feminism, we used cigarettes in the 30s as one of the vehicles for that.. (thank you Eddie Bernays). Nowadays we give you computers and cell phones to get you used to invasion of your privacy and your property, ... and all with your naively willing cooperation especially from those of you who use social networks (!). You see, every excuse we have to get into your life we will use, in the end we will criminalize you for tampering with the mandatory heart monitor on your future cell phone, we will put you in jail for hacking your washing machine to run outside the permitted hours. It's coming... for you cattle :-)

  56. The Mythology of Wealth and Property by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    "Our current notions of property exist because they benefit enough of society that people have approved the appropriate force required to enforce those notions."

    For more on that theme, see:
        "The Mythology of Wealth"
        http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/?q=node/402
    "... The first thing they teach you in law school -- and I mean the first thing-- is that "property" is a collection of legal rights. They are mental abstractions. They were created in more or less their present form in the middle ages by common law judges. ... Under our system of laws, the ultimate owner of all "property" is the sovereign -- the government. That is who originally granted your "rights". Our system of laws and government defines your rights, and creates an entire infrastructure to regulate them. There are courts that will "enforce" your rights â" that is send out the local muscle man known as the "sheriff" to chuck "squatters" off your property. Every state in the union has a system of publicly recording the documents that establish your "title" in order to put the world on notice of exactly "owns" what. So, how are these "property rights" created? That's easy. They are created the same way all mythological realities are created -- with a little mumbo-jumbo. ..."

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  57. Re:being an asshole does not merit 35 years in pri by Byrel · · Score: 1

    I consider this to be in the same general area as plagiarism

    Yes, but while plagiarism is dishonest, it is not actually "theft".

    Is there a word for using others material without warrant? Trespass details the improper access, but what about the subsequent dissemination?

    Sure, we call it copyright infringement. As an author, I have the exclusive right to control who copies my works (until they go into the public domain.)

    If I don't have a copyright on the material in my possession, trespass is all that is left if someone breaks in, takes it, and shouts it to the world.

  58. data is not owned by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 1
    data consists of a long string of ones and zeros. If you tally them up, they make a number. you cannot own a number. Therefore, data is not owned.

    If it is, then I'm going to copyright the number seven and fuck all you people.

    --
    Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
  59. Is there an alternative? by jago25_98 · · Score: 1

    I've often wanted to read science. Is there a way I can do so without breaking the bank?

    Most people I've asked share passwords... I don't know if I'd want to get into that... though my usage would be so low it would probably work.

  60. Basic Income from a Millionaire's Perspective? by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 2

    The figures you cite are just for federal personal income tax and ignore the disappearance of corporate taxes as well as the rise in regressive taxes related to sales, social security, medicare, and housing. They also ignore that we have the largest rich/poor wealth disparity than in any time since the run up to the last great depression.

    "I'm not sure about others, but in my small group I work with, I know many, many people would walk away from the job if the top rates went back to 91%."

    Terrific! More jobs for other people who want them or need them. :-) Other people can grow into becoming "top performers" if we need that. Right now, the rich get richer, and the tallest sunflowers shade out the small ones and suck most of the nutrients out of the soil with bigger root systems. We need to address that somehow, otherwise, frankly, beyond our democracy disappearing socially now, the whole system may just disintegrate physically (perhaps in global war with nukes, plagues, killer robots, and whatever else) as poverty increases and the income-through-jobs link breaks as the "top performers" are increasingly robots and AIs. There is little political democracy without some financial democracy.

    Social security and medicare for all, regardless of age, would go a long way to addressing the problems the USA faces, including the problem that the richest Republicans are the worst socialists as far as privatizing gains and socializing costs for pollution, war, ill health, and risk.

    But sure, if you'd rather a wealth tax than an income tax, see also:
        "Basic Income from a Millionaire's Perspective?"
        http://www.livableincome.org/amillionairegli.htm

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    1. Re:Basic Income from a Millionaire's Perspective? by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      yes, because joe plumber can become a doctor? can become a lawyer? can become larry page?

      the naivety of your view can be astounding, though I'm sure you were joking. others can't take those jobs because they are incapable. if they were capable, they would be hired as trainees (go to medical school, law school, etc). most aren't. It also ignores the fact that most top earners work longer hours in a year that most people do in 2-3 years. I know my current boss easily works 15 hour days during the week and probably an extra 20 during the weekends. and hwen we are busy, very few of us work less than 18 hour days and then do research on the weekends. We just went through a period like that.

      to give a brief example of how you can get into the top pay brackets:
      a junior at an investment bank generally works 110 hours a week (I've heard up to 120-130 but let's use a more conservative number). In your 3rd year, you can expect to get paid 250k dollars per year, a lot by any standards. let's turn that into hourly wages given current laws (so time and a half for hours of 40). this means that in a week, 110 hours becomes 40+70*1.5 or 145 hours. if you work 50 weeks, you are earning 5k/week. or an exorbitant 35 dollars per hour. even better, 30-40% of your income will be in long term stock that, given the market for bank stocks, has decimated this return. that 40% of your income might be 20% down by the time you can cash it, so you are earning closer to 32 dollars per hour.

      I could do similar math for doctors. In the 70s in new york, a resident earned 20k/year but worked 120 hours per week. see how many people want those "good jobs". Sure, it leads to being a doctor, but it requires years of study and then several years of work for tiny amounts of money.

      you also realize that before 1913 the entire federal government was basically funded by sales taxes, right? import duties are absolutely sales taxes. we spent most of our history funding our government that way. I could say I want to go back to the great economy of the 1880s by abolishing all these income taxes, end standing armies, end medicare, end SS, end medicaid, etc. and I bet you won't agree with me.

      you are right though, that corporate income tax has fallen dramatically and that is an issue that should be addressed diligently. but this is also a problem of an international corporation and how you tax the gains not earned in this country. we generally do a very bad job of this. but every country in the world has that problem. we'd do alot better in the case of companies like GE making worldwide income taxable but at a low rate (say, 10%) or allow the current system with the change that deferred tax bills by holding gains overseas must come due after X number of years.

      I'm not defending republicans or democrats. as I've said before, both are a large group of morons with a few bright lights in there. but that doesn't mean that a 91% income tax does us very much good. it does help level income and wealth, but by discouraging the generation of wealth and income. I'm pretty sure that doesn't help things for anyone and the wealthy remain well enough off. They just don't help generate any jobs for everyone else who can't do those jobs.

      you could do a wealth tax, as that website discusses. I didn't read it all, but switzerland does have a wealth tax, but they also have very low income taxes (negotiable rates for the top earners) and actively recruit multi millionaires and billionaires to the country and encourage them to keep as much of their income as possible. but it's a terrible idea because it strongly discourages saving, which would have helped us a lot in the recent crisis. Switzerland does it by making it optional (vs either a multiple of your monthly rent or an income tax).

      My main point though, is messing with taxes messes with people's reasons to really work hard. with a 90% tax rate, you don't help anyone, you only encourage the wealthy to not try as hard and not generate as much economic activity. that hurts everyone.

    2. Re:Basic Income from a Millionaire's Perspective? by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      Just to begin with, on your point on putting in so many hours, even ignoring how the people you cite in finance are often playing a zero sum game with each other and other people's money ( http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/07/25/110725fa_fact_cassidy ) that may add little social value overall, and 70% of what most doctors do is useless to harmful ( http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/the-triumph-of-new-age-medicine/8554/ ), consider the law of diminishing returns on overwork:
      ""Were You Born on the Wrong Continent?": America's misguided culture of overwork: Germany's workers have higher productivity, shorter hours and greater quality of life. How did we get it so wrong?"
      http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2010/08/25/german_usa_working_life_ext2010
      "Since the start of the recession, the number of unemployed in the U.S. has doubled. Those who are fortunate enough to still have jobs are often working longer hours for less pay, with the ever-present threat of losing being laid off. But even before the recession, American workers were already clocking in the most hours in the West. Compared to our German cousins across the pond, we work 1,804 hours versus their 1,436 hours -- the equivalent of nine extra 40-hour workweeks per year. The Protestant work ethic may have begun in Germany, but it has since evolved to become the American way of life.
      According to Thomas Geoghegan, a labor lawyer in Chicago and author of "Were You Born on the Wrong Continent?: How the European Model Can Help You Get a Life," European social democracy -- particularly Germany's-- offers some tantalizing solutions to our overworked age. In comparison to the U.S., the Germans live in a socialist idyll. They have six weeks of federally mandated vacation, free university tuition, nursing care, and childcare. In an attempt to make Germany more like the U.S., Angela Merkel has proposed deregulation and tax cuts only to be met with fury on the left. Over multiple trips spanning a decade, Geoghegan decided to investigate how the Germans were living so well, and by extension, what we might be able to learn from them.
      Salon spoke to Geoghegan over the phone about Germany's luxurious worker benefits, our own dysfunctional attitudes towards work, and how we can make our lives more like theirs. ...
      We don't have any material value of leisure time, which is extremely valuable to people. We don't have any way of valuing what these European public goods are really worth. You know, it's 50,000 dollars for tuition at NYU and it's zero at Humboldt University in Berlin. So NYU adds catastrophic amounts of GDP per capita and Humboldt adds nothing. Between you and me, I'd rather go to school at Humboldt.
      So much of the American economy is based on GDP that comes from waste, environmental pillage, urban sprawl, bad planning, people going farther and farther with no land use planning whatsoever and leading more miserable lives. That GDP is thrown on top of all the GDP that comes from gambling and fraud of one kind or another. It's a more straightforward description of what Kenneth Rogoff and the Economist would call the financialization of the American economy. That transformation is a big part of the American economic model as it has morphed in some very perverse directions in the last 30 or 40 years. It's why the collapse here is going to take a much more serious long-term toll in this country than in the decades ahead."

      Someone speaking from a German point of view might suggest that if you have to work more than 40 hours a week, either you or your organization are not very competent, and if that much work did indeed need to be done, it would probably be better socially if it was done by

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    3. Re:Basic Income from a Millionaire's Perspective? by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      wow, just a few quick points. I don't have the time to contradict the labor lawyers drivel or the rest on every point. I also cant' tell what is mass quoted from a book or website or your own words so it makes it much harder.

      first: just because you don't value what occurs in finance doesn't mean others don't. honestly, who are you to decide what services others want to pay for?

      second: according to the OECD, americans are not the most productive in the world, but we come very close. The Dutch beat us out by a rounding error (0.1%) and the germans trail us by about 10.5%.

      third: just because some German may not understand why a particular job requires more than 40 hours doesn't mean all Germans, and most importantly, informed Germans don't know why this is. Many Germans work longer than 40 hours in a week and many work longer hours than I do. Those who require only 40 hour weeks and 6 weeks of vacation in order to eat properly, exercise, and live healthy are simply without diligence or discipline. I'ts pretty easy to do this until you cross the 100 hour mark, but I can't think of a profession that does this for many years.

      fourth: just because the student doesn't pay for a college doesn't mean it doesn't contribute to GDP. Whoever said this obviously has no clue how GDP is calculated and is conveniently ignoring the fact that SOMEONE is paying for your trip to that school and most likely, it adds to the "government spending" section (unless it is private donations).

      fifth: nothing stops anyone in the US from joining or living in a Basque style or Amish style world. Just as no one forces you to visit an MD, you can consult with any crackpot if you wish. I could try to envision the freedom of doing either as some intricate corporate overload scheme to make me miserable, but I just can't....

  61. It's a hook by Quila · · Score: 1

    "Party like its 1773" to tea partiers. Get it? It was a great line (whoever wrote it), but it was twisted by a media that is obsessed with destroying her.

    "and didn't she attempt to imply that by being able to see russia from a random island in alaska gave her foreign policy credentials"

    The statement was a response to the moderator's challenge to her previous statement that Alaska's proximity to Russia gives her international experience. It does, since Alaska has quite a bit of direct dealings with Russia due to the proximity, mainly in fishing, gas and oil. The true statement that you can see Russia from Alaska was trying to reinforce this fact with a visual in the minds of the viewers.

    My point remains, bashing these days doesn't require the truth. The statements of both Gore and Palin were true, the bashers need to twist it in order to make them look bad.

    Then you have the middle ground, the standard gaffe. They deserve a good laugh for that every once in a while, but it's not indicative of some general ignorance or deception. It's like Bachmann saying Lexington and Concord are in Hew Hampshire or Obama's 57 states, his "Austrian" language, his misspelling of "advice" or signing the Westminster Abbey guest book this year as 2008.

    A question you need to ask yourself right now: When I mentioned those Obama gaffes, did you immediately doubt they were true, did you immediately think it may be the same twisting as done to Gore? Did you give him the benefit of the doubt before further research?

    Now the big question: Did you give Palin and Bachmann the same consideration? Likely not, given you didn't know about the context of the Russia argument. You just took it as given. .

    Be careful, partisanship can cloud your mind. I've see the most vicious idiocy ever directed at Palin and Bachmann. They pore over their every word in real-time, hoping to be the first to publish a story of their supposed mistakes without bothering to do one second of research or even thinking.

    For the record, I am neither a Bachmann nor a Palin supporter. They're too religious fundamentalist for me.