Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

GNOME and KDE Devs Wrangle Over 'System Settings' Name

Posted by timothy on from the keyboard-chooser-by-any-other-name dept.

An anonymous reader writes "The developer of the KDE System Settings application has launched a formal complaint against GNOME for renaming 'Control Center' to 'System Settings' in GNOME 3.0. This developer is demanding that GNOME immediately change the name of their control panel area. Developers on both sides are now discussing this act."

44 of 289 comments (clear)

  1. This is ridiculous! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Seems both KDE and Gnome are making themselves irrelevant. Switched to XFCE, not going back.

    1. Re:This is ridiculous! by JamesP · · Score: 4, Interesting

      [2]

      No, really, this is ridiculous

      KDE for breaking and rebuilding everything, while making it half-assed.
      Gnome for dumbing-things down excessively (we may call it 'retarding-it-down')

      Switched to XFCE. Next computer is going to be from that company from Cupertino

      This whole kind of idiocy is why we can't have nice things...

      --
      how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
    2. Re:This is ridiculous! by mhh91 · · Score: 2

      I'm sorry, KDE is far from half-assed now, it might have been unstable back in the days of KDE 4.0.x

      I'm using 4.6.5 on Arch Linux right now, and it's even more stable than GNOME 3.0, I know it should be, but yet again, 4.6.5 is the latest stable release, it hasn't been tested that thoroughly, either

      Not to mention that Arch is known to be bleeding edge, so it's not the most stable distro around.

      So yeah, I chose to go with KDE, at least for now, it's more reliable and customizable than GNOME 3.0.

    3. Re:This is ridiculous! by Joce640k · · Score: 3, Funny

      No, really, this is ridiculous

      They're just following the Microsoft model of renaming/moving everything just when you get to know where things are and what they're called.

      Microsoft spends millions of $$$ a year on usability studies so it must be the correct thing to do.

      --
      No sig today...
    4. Re:This is ridiculous! by Stiletto · · Score: 2

      Lighter? What, does it make my laptop weigh less? What does that even mean anymore?

    5. Re:This is ridiculous! by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 2

      This is ridiculous!

      Of course it is. Even I know to use mv to rename something in Linux.

    6. Re:This is ridiculous! by bhcompy · · Score: 5, Funny

      There's that word again; "lighter". Why are things so much lighter in the future? Is there a problem with the earth's gravitational pull?

    7. Re:This is ridiculous! by Osgeld · · Score: 3, Interesting

      go get a early pentium4 with 512 megs of ram, run gnome and then run xfce (try your best to not infect it with too many gnome libs) you will see what lighter means instantly

      on a much more extreme example take my powermac 9600/300. yea its slow but perfectly usable in xfce, in fact I had to use it for a couple weeks when my main desktop took a dump, uses half of its 256 megs of memory and suits its needs as both a daily electronics bench machine and retro computer (its 14 years old). I installed *something* that installed and started a gnome process and it doubled the boot time and left me with like 3% free memory, then failed to load the application.

    8. Re:This is ridiculous! by danbuter · · Score: 2

      I've switched to XFCE, and I like it a lot. Much better than either the current Gnome or KDE.

    9. Re:This is ridiculous! by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 2

      The windows are all rendered in pastels.

      --
      This space available.
    10. Re:This is ridiculous! by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's the politically correct term for "not so damned fat and bloated", although "leaner" might be more PC.

      I thought it was silly too until I rtfa. KDE is right, it will cause problems for folks using both.

      --
      Free Martian Whores!
    11. Re:This is ridiculous! by thsths · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have to say that XFCE is getting mighty fat recently - it is no fun on an old PC or even in a virtual machine. Which means that I am moving on to LXDE - it does just what I want, and it does it quickly.

      Is there a law that says software has to get fat over time? Because that is surely the way it is going. KDE 1.0 was pretty light at some point, and up to KDE 3 it worked well in a virtual machine. I guess I could always use trinity instead - but then again I really like okular over kpdf...

    12. Re:This is ridiculous! by JamesP · · Score: 2

      True, I like(d) KDE, last time I tried it was 4.2 IIRC

      Also, there's an issue with distros not properly supporting it. Even Kubuntu is so-so.

      I LOVED KDE 3, KDE 4, even without the problems, I'm not a huge fan

      But it's KDE anytime over Gnome. And what I like about XFCE is that it keeps the customization aspects of KDE while being lightweight.

      --
      how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
    13. Re:This is ridiculous! by HiThere · · Score: 2

      KDE4 is currently much better than it was, but it's not yet as good as Gnome2, much less as good as KDE3.x. I'm not, however, saying that it isn't better than Gnome3 will be. Early appearances are that it's better.

      Whether I'll switch back the KDE4, or switch to LXDE when Gnome2 is withdrawn is not something I've decided upon. Maybe there'll be a successful revival of KDE3. (I know it's being worked on. The last time I looked, the repositories weren't working.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    14. Re:This is ridiculous! by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When you get to the phase where your new features all involve renaming things, rounding corners, or improving "user experience" then you know it's done and you should pick a new project to work on.

      I'm sort of serious here. Early on in a project there are lots of important changes and each release has some big improvements. Later on though the devs/company wants to keep up having recent releases so they start reaching deep in the barrel to find things to keep the feature list full.

    15. Re:This is ridiculous! by couchslug · · Score: 2

      "This whole kind of idiocy is why we can't have nice things..."

      XFCE _IS_ nice!

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    16. Re:This is ridiculous! by jimicus · · Score: 2

      That's odd, your experience apparently does not mirror mine. From time to time I run a Microsoft PC and these days it always feels like slumming compared to my KDE/Linux experience. Why does Microsoft think it is a good idea to end your scroll drag if you happen to drift more than X pixels to the side of the scroll bar? And what is this double clicking nonsense?

      This was a few years ago, and TBH it wasn't the polish of the desktop environment itself that pushed me. It was the fact that (at the time at least) it didn't take very much work to turn yourself into a corner case that was poorly supported and even more poorly tested. Multi-monitor support was dire, if I bought a modern inkjet printer I'd typically have to wait 6-12 months for it to get good support (which is a PITA when your average inkjet is only on the market for 12 months or so). There was no single event that pushed me, it was more a "death by a thousand cuts" kind of thing that eventually led to me saying "Enough! If I'm going to battle with a desktop OS, I'm going to be paid for it!"

      YMMV and all that.

    17. Re:This is ridiculous! by JamesP · · Score: 2

      Next computer is going to be from that company from Cupertino

      Yeah. Because Apple would never dumb down their interface for 25+ years with a one-button mouse.

      Let's go for a car Analogy

      Windows is like driving an automatic transmission car
      KDE is like driving a manual transmission car
      Apple is like driving a car with a joystick and buttons instead of a wheel and pedals
      Gnome is like a manual transmission car, without the stick, clutch or brakes

      --
      how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
    18. Re:This is ridiculous! by Daniel+Phillips · · Score: 2

      That's odd, your experience apparently does not mirror mine. From time to time I run a Microsoft PC and these days it always feels like slumming compared to my KDE/Linux experience. Why does Microsoft think it is a good idea to end your scroll drag if you happen to drift more than X pixels to the side of the scroll bar? And what is this double clicking nonsense?

      This was a few years ago, and TBH it wasn't the polish of the desktop environment itself that pushed me. It was the fact that (at the time at least) it didn't take very much work to turn yourself into a corner case that was poorly supported and even more poorly tested. Multi-monitor support was dire, if I bought a modern inkjet printer I'd typically have to wait 6-12 months for it to get good support (which is a PITA when your average inkjet is only on the market for 12 months or so). There was no single event that pushed me, it was more a "death by a thousand cuts" kind of thing that eventually led to me saying "Enough! If I'm going to battle with a desktop OS, I'm going to be paid for it!"

      YMMV and all that.

      Indeed, my mileage does vary, I enjoy not having to put in a driver disk to install a printer. My printer experience on Linux lately has been that you plug in the USB cable to whatever printer, new or old, and it prints. And you can generally expect printing to continue to work properly even after many years of system updates. No doubt there are exceptions to this rule, I just haven't hit any recently. And Windows PCs are hardly immune from printer problems.

      --
      Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
    19. Re:This is ridiculous! by Raenex · · Score: 2

      Is there a law that says software has to get fat over time?

      Yes, it's the natural order of software. "Gee, wouldn't it be nice to have feature X?" And usually the answer is "yes", at least for a large enough number of people. Repeat that over enough years and your software will become bloated.

      The cycle starts anew when the bloat becomes too much, and people flock to a lightweight competitor.

    20. Re:This is ridiculous! by jimicus · · Score: 2

      Oh, these things all worked in basic terms, that wasn't the issue. But you don't buy a fancy photo printer that is sold with the ability to print on CDs and right to the edge of the paper for fun.

      Those features - minor though they are - simply did not exist on Linux at the time. The "print on CDs" feature was only implemented by sheer chance when someone pointed out that Epson had re-used a well-known command to instruct the printer to load the CD tray.

      Upshot: Yes, you can get basic functionality on Linux quite easily. But, as I said, if you want to use the flashier features you soon become a poorly-tested corner case where nothing really works properly.

    21. Re:This is ridiculous! by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 2

      Oh, KDE 4.6 (and upcomming 4.7) are miles ahead of 4.2. After all, it is 2.5 years of development since you last checked...

      Free software is not like closed source, it moves continuously: there is no particular incentive for big releases which mpres customers. But the progress accumulates just the same.

    22. Re:This is ridiculous! by jimicus · · Score: 2

      I was using printers as an example; there were plenty of other issues. You've got to bear in mind this was 2005; VPNs (as a remotely-connecting desktop user), USB thumb drives and multi-monitor support are the biggest that immediately spring to mind. I know for a fact that USB thumb drives are much better supported today, but back then most desktop environments had dire support for unmounting removable media - I had to write my own script that would deal with it and put an icon on the desktop. I managed to get decent multimonitor support working but I had to keep my xfree86 config file and take it with me if I ever changed distribution because I could never find a distribution that had a config tool that worked.

      These are all tiny little things for the most part, as I say, but they took up an inordinate amount of time.

      AFAICT, while most of the niggling issues that bothered me at the time are long gone, the fundamental point - that if you want to do anything remotely clever you're likely to encounter lots of tiny little annoyances that take up an inordinate amount of time - hasn't. They're just different issues ;)

      I didn't (and still don't) see the point in using Linux if the first thing you're going to do is spend time looking for commercial solutions to every little problem that comes up; it doesn't take many £29.99 problems before it's just as cheap to say "forget it" and make your next computer a mac, particularly if the existing machine's getting on in years anyway. It's an operating system, not a religion - it has one purpose to its existence and that's to get the hell out of the way so I can do something useful.

    23. Re:This is ridiculous! by arth1 · · Score: 2

      Multi-monitor support was dire,

      It still is. It's a shame that if I want to use two monitors and screen locking, I can't run Gnome. Because each display reports non-use separately, so in the middle of typing a document, if I bump the mouse over to the other display, the screen saver locks both of them, due to one of them not having been used for a while.
      Then there's gdm and the login prompt that doesn't see the monitors in the same order as the desktop does. Makes for some interesting mousing, especially with four monitors.
      Oh, and like most other WTFs, these two are WONTFIX. Whenever two subsystems fail to act together, this seems to be the case - they blame each other until someone slaps a WONTFIX on it.
      By fiat, there IS no big elephant in the living room.

  2. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    RTFA. The real issue is that duplicating the name is causing system conflicts for those with both installed.

  3. seems to be about a name clash by iampiti · · Score: 2

    Quote from TFA: "He says that it will cause packaging problems if there cannot be two System Settings entries in a desktop menu, as such when running GNOME the KDE System Settings application may not appear listed".
    If that's the case it's a bit ridiculous. Maybe it'd be good to add some kind of namespace system.
    Anyway...this doesn't deserve to be on slashdot front page.

    1. Re:seems to be about a name clash by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Uhh, I also comes from a long background of GNOME ignoring KDE, and acting as though they exist in a vaccuum. Also, they knew about the naming issue.

      So the guy has reasons to be miffed: GNOME, at this stage lives in a bizzare delusion that they are an OS, and not just a DE. And this attitude is clearly grating: they seem to believe that what they do is the standard, and that probably KDE is something like windowsblind is (was?) for MS windows. And of course, the KDE dev have stopped assuming good faith, because their is none.

  4. Let me get it right. by drolli · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem seems to be that duplicate names for different entries in menus on common distributions seem not be be correctly handled and the fix for this is not to go the consistent way (the same things are named in the same way) and fix the functions which create the menus (like detecting duplicate entries and attaching an indication of the package name in the entry), but to plainly forbid to name entries in the same way?

    I dont like that. This is not the year of the linux desktop.

  5. Two menu items with the same name by tepples · · Score: 4, Informative

    If you have two menu items with the same name, how do you decide which to choose? The short-term solution being proposed in the thread is to rename the "System Settings" of whatever desktop is not in use: call GNOME's app "GNOME System Settings" when in a KDE desktop.

    1. Re:Two menu items with the same name by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 2

      The easiest solution is to add a check on the area your using (whether this is on disk or in memory) and see if what you want is actually there. Not being a programmer I can't tell where specifically they currently overlap, but adding checks to verify the state of something is 101 level comp sci stuff I learned back with basic in high school.

      In the worst case were they directly are overwriting the same data and messing everything up a small utility which can even separate the settings by app within the same files are even possible... That however means they would need to work on such a system. Though since both seem to want to have a schoolyard dispute that would probably keep it from happening.

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
    2. Re:Two menu items with the same name by tepples · · Score: 2

      If you read the thread, they say they want it to be temporary because ideally, the GNOME System Settings and the KDE System Settings would be configuring the same system-wide settings, and one wouldn't need both of them.

    3. Re:Two menu items with the same name by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Informative

      That is precisely how they decided to solve it, to everyone's satisfaction. Nothing to see here anymore, move along.

  6. Re:That is a ridiculous complaint ... by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes. Basically, GNOME apps have some of their setting only st-able in the GNOME control panel. Same for KDE.

    Now, despite what some people would have you believe, it is normal, usual, reasonable to have apps from both environment running under whitchever one you prefer. And you may still want to change their settings.

    But now, it turns out that in your menu, you have two completely different system settings, named "system settings". This is clearly not very nice.

    So ideally, they ought to be called GNOME SS and KDE SS, except for two details.
      - KDE named their "system settings" first, and the GNOME dev knew about that
      - KDE decided that "KDE" means the community, not the DE. And clearly, the app configures the DE...
    To me, this is a case of KDE lacking a bit of forsight, and GNOME being their usual arrofant selves (we are an OS -- no you're not, you are a DE, and that is quite enough)

  7. Re:Yeah... by llindy · · Score: 2

    This is definitely something worth arguing about.

    You're right, as I DO use both kde and gnome. One does say System Settings, the other is Control Center. Hence, I've run into the same situation with "screensaver: which now I have 2 entries, both of which are identical, but alas, click the wrong one, and it asks you if you want to shut down gnome. What a pity that Gnome & KDE devs have to act like a couple of kids in a sandbox, and you stole my toy.

    --
    "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you stand alone"
  8. Re:Yeah... by rubycodez · · Score: 4, Funny

    Quit using two bloated desktops that jumped the shark and have roadmaps leading to buggy piles of shit as milestones, and your problems are solved.

  9. Re:"control panel" by erroneus · · Score: 3, Funny

    Agreed. It should be Kontrol Kpanel. They really love putting K in front of everything as it is... or have they finally gotten over that?

  10. Re:Really? by TheCycoONE · · Score: 2

    Not so much Linux, the kernel knows nothing about these files. The structure they are using to specify menu entries is specified by freedesktop.org, who are suppose to provide specifications for ensuring desktop environments are compatible so in a sense it's their fault. Suddenly the Windows pseudo-standard of CompanyName -> Application Name makes a little more sense.

  11. Re:That is a ridiculous complaint ... by cloudmaster · · Score: 2

    Who cares who thought of it "first"? The phrase "System Settings" is not a name, it's a description of the tool. If they both manage system settings, and they're foolishly named based on what they do instead of what they are (like the current trend of calling Firefox / Koqueror / whatever "web browser" or just "web" in the menu), then obviously there will inevitably be conflicts.

    Go back to coming up with unique names within a theme (ie, "Konfigure"), and this goes away.

  12. Stupid design by starfishsystems · · Score: 2

    There is no Linux namespace issue here. Linux inherits a hierarchical filesystem and strong conventions for environment variables such as PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH. If tens of thousands of complex applications can coexist under this discipline, session managers have no excuse for breakage.

    It seems to be simply egregiously arrogant design for two session managers to insist on appropriating exactly the same part of this environment for themselves. That's like the C compiler insisting on using JAVA_HOME for some special purpose of its own.

    Am I missing something fundamental here? Because I have found both Gnome and KDE to be a step backwards in terms of true ease of use and configurability compared to much simpler predecessors like twm. I can't even change the root cursor color. Pathetic.

    --
    Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
  13. Re:Usual bit bullshit from Gnome devs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    and it only collides if you install and use both KDE and Gnome at the same time. so, if I provide you a ditch big enough, will you be so kind and go die in it? thanks.

    Thus spaketh arrogant prick. lesser humanoid, and Gnome Developer Emmanuele Bassi (ebassi@gmail.com) http://live.gnome.org/EmmanueleBassi.

    Olav will be displeased with you, Emmanuele. Guess being a prick precludes you from signing that Gnome Code of Conduct:

    GNOME Code Of Conduct

    Summary

    GNOME creates software for a better world. We achieve this by behaving well towards each other.

    Therefore this document suggests what we consider ideal behaviour, so you know what to expect when getting involved in GNOME. This is who we are and what we want to be. There is no official enforcement of these principles, and this should not be interpreted like a legal document.

    Advice

            Be respectful and considerate:
                    Disagreement is no excuse for poor behaviour or personal attacks. Remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable is not a productive one.
            Be patient and generous:
                    If someone asks for help it is because they need it. Do politely suggest specific documentation or more appropriate venues where appropriate, but avoid aggressive or vague responses such as "RTFM".
            Assume people mean well:
                    Remember that decisions are often a difficult choice between competing priorities. If you disagree, please do so politely.
                    If something seems outrageous, check that you did not misinterpret it. Ask for clarification, but do not assume the worst.
            Try to be concise:
                    Avoid repeating what has been said already. Making a conversation larger makes it difficult to follow, and people often feel personally attacked if they receive multiple messages telling them the same thing.

    Oh BTW dumbfuck, LOTS of Linux users have multiple DE's installed! Typical that you Gnome people can't grasp that simple fact.

  14. Creating something great requires two people by zooblethorpe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When you get to the phase where your new features all involve renaming things, rounding corners, or improving "user experience" then you know it's done and you should pick a new project to work on.

    My wife spent some time in serious art-school mode. One of the profs that she greatly respected told her that making great art requires two people -- 1) the person capable of making the piece, and 2) someone else to shoot the first person when they're done. This is because most folks can't leave well enough alone and keep futzing until what was great (or at least on the cusp of it) is munged beyond the pale.

    It does indeed look like at least some of the Linux DEs are at the "shoot the artist" stage.

    Cheers,

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
    1. Re:Creating something great requires two people by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      It does indeed look like at least some of the Linux DEs are at the "shoot the artist" stage.

      Gnome is well past that point. And Unity either hasn't reached it, or was there before it started.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  15. NOT Kontrol! by Chemisor · · Score: 2

    Vee respectfully disagree. Vee say it should be Kaos Panel.

  16. Re:Usual bit bullshit from Gnome devs by ebassi · · Score: 2

    it actually turns out that the KDE system settings shell is *always* shown (regardless if your using Gnome, XFCE, LXDE or whatever), and the maintainer did not accept the "OnlyShowIn" tag fix: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102038/ - the Gnome system setting shell correctly sets the "OnlyShowIn" tag, so that it is only shown under Gnome (or Unity). and yet Gnome gets bashed because the gnome-control-center maintainer decided to give a more descriptive name for something that, unlike in Gnome 2.x, will appear as a launcher. the power of the FLOSS community: eating their children since 1991.

    --
    You can save space. Or you can save time. Don't ever count on saving both at once. -- First Law of Algorithmic Analisys