Well, being under new ownership one might expect things to get better (or worse). I don't know, just a possibility. A lot of people have this software on their laptops and desktops so it might be significant.
-- ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
Re:Annnnd?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
I hear it is great and use it all the time! Oh, excuse me I just got a request to go meet with some lawyers who just happened to stop by. I hope it will all be okay....
that's the truth, for the language itself warmed over 1980s c++ concepts, then the promise of right-once - run anywhere in practice just a pile of B.S., the typical libraries used make business apps bloated hardware hogs.....now add to that the Oracle ogre.....fuck java, the jvm and j2ee. Superior lightweight alternatives are being embraced except for those companies with time and money to burn. And if you want to descend to an even deeper level of Hell, than sign IBM up for websphere project and watch the con-slut-ants descend like vampires
My company is busily transitioning from COBOL to Java and just purchased WebSphere ESB...what are the alternatives here? I think a bunch of us would love to know.
haha, ruby more a hobby at time I chose nick, still consider it a fun language though for a living have had to use many others. Been doing mostly python with C libraries as of late.
Actually, a better question might be: Is anyone starting anything new in java? I suppose there's lots of legacy java code that people are stuck with, at least until they can get around to rewriting it. And I've known a few organizations that are pretty much married to the language.
But I can't really imagine starting a new project in java these days, not until we have legally-binding assurances that using the language doesn't mean risking that we'll be sued into bankruptcy.
I do wish we had as good a reason to abandon javascript...;-)
-- Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Actually, as someone who has to use write-once run-anywhere on a daily basis (and over the last 15 years) I'd say you are very out of touch with what the Java situation is today. Yes, there are "Superior lightweight alternatives" for the small projects you probably work on. Try a project with hundreds of thousands to millions of lines and dozens of people working on it. Java works both on the small side (I've used it in very small embedded systems, using GCJ) to the mammoth (Internet scale, which I've also worked on). Sorry mate, sounds like your vitriol for Java is because you work on a limited range of stuff (where your limited domain-oriented frameworks happen to work well). Oh yeah, sounds like you have a bit of an anger management problem too ("con-slut-ants"? what are you, 12?).
Avoid Websphere. Use Tomcat - lots of them. This is a "Cathedral vs Bazaar" model. The 'Bazaar' approach of lots of cheap components seems to work well enough for Google. Don't waste your money on Websphere, it can't make up for competent developers (so use Tomcat and put the money saved into getting an keeping great developers).
Go and check the Tiobe index. Java is huge, it is just that it isn't as fashionable as iOS so gets less press. Plus, there is not much bad news in the Java world to sell papers/advertisments (except for the recent Oracle vs Google silliness). Basically, the Enterprise space (where the money is for developers) is mostly Java, with a little.NET. But Average Joe (without good visibility of the breadth of computing) think that 'computing' means desktop and iPad - sounds like you do too. The reality is Java is *everywhere* and pretty much just works, which is why it doesn't get much press. Java's ubiquity shows its success, and plenty of new projects are written in it (adding to the enormous number of existing projects), even though the chattering classes don't find it sexy anymore.
As a Java user there is *zero* risk you'll be sued - so please cut spreading the ignorant crap, eh? There is a problem if you write an incompatible Java implementation (as Google did, and Microsoft before them, although for different reasons).
It is you who have limited exposure with java if you haven't run into horrendous portability issues (out of the blue, ever use jaxp on weblogic for ppc?), or the backwards incompatibility issues between versions ( better check out that list for this latest release, by the way). Scalability is purely a matter of architecture, not language choice. I've worked on a fair share of massive code base projects. My choice of silly words for the IBM drones is just a nice way of warning about the consulting sewer that eats time, money and project deadlines, I'm 47 and you're welcome.
Hey, there's nothing wrong with Beelzebub! I am personally offended you would blaspheme Beelzebub. Plus, I think Java 7 is truly a game-changer in the software world, and it will forever change the way people use computers from now on! (And trust me, I am not just saying that because I am paid to).
You do know that Javascript has nothing to do with Java, right?
Several possible replies come to mind. The first is obviously "Whoooosh!", since you missed what should have be clearly humor in my comment. You also missed the fact that, since I was wishing we had as good an excuse to abandon javascript as we do to abandon java, I was tacitly implying that javascript isn't java.
Another possible reply comes from a number of discussions where people have brought this up, and various replies came back suggesting that people look into the innards of most implementations of javascript, where they'll find that the code invokes the local java libraries. Of course, they also use libc, but that doesn't mean that the code is dependent on (or derived from) libc; it could just mean that the POSIX conventions were followed, and libc happens to be how those are supplied on most systems. But from a programmer's viewpoint, knowing that javascript often calls the java libraries tells us some things that could be useful. It means that on many systems, javascript may inherit a lot of the good and bad features from java. F'rinstance, I remember having a lot of problems with java's date/time stuff twice a year, when local clocks switched to/from DST. This was all explained to me when someone handed me a copy of the (then) java spec stating that the java library's internal clock was in local time. That was sufficient grounds for banning java (and javascript) from a number of projects in which it was important that we have a reliable internal clock across the network. I've never tried serious date/time manipulation in javascript, but I know enough about it to shudder at the thought.
And yet another possible reply is to point out that javascript and java are obviously related. They both start with "java", don't they?;-)
It can be amusing seeing people trying to deal with bogus name/value confusion. And it's amazing how often people fall for this sort of trick. You can find a lot of them in the history of religion, since a lot of religious doctrines are based on specific interpretations of the wording of a sacred book in one specific language. Such things don't translate well, so you get factionalism and heresies from people that are reading the sacred books in different languages, or are using different translations into a single language. So far we don't have computer language confusion leading to holy wars with millions of people killed, but we do have a lot of misunderstanding and miscommunication due to our sloppy misuses of language. Mocking it with java(script) should be a bit of obvious humor to any computer geeks with even minimal linguistics backgrounds.
There are probably some other good replies, but the margin is too small to scribble them all out...
-- Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
As a Java user there is *zero* risk you'll be sued - so please cut spreading the ignorant crap, eh? There is a problem if you write an incompatible Java implementation (as Google did, and Microsoft before them, although for different reasons).
Agreed for a "user". But as a software developer, there are some serious risks with the current fashion (in the US at least) for patent trolling. The patent/copyright laws are more and more being (mis)used to bankrupt small startups and independent developers.
One specific threat that's of growing concern: As you say, "Java is huge", and I read this to mean not its popularity at the management level, but rather the size of its libraries. There's no practical way that I or any other mere human can memorize all the details of everything that's in the java libraries. This means that there's a good chance that I may implement a needed routine not knowing that there's a library routine that already does most of the work. We get a lot of humor (see The Daily WTF for many examples) from developers "reinventing the wheel" by rewriting a routine that they should have known already exists. But we do this all the time for the more obscure corners of libraries. Often the reason is that we used different language in describing the task, so we didn't realize that that routine with a totally different names was in fact doing something isomorphic to what our routine does.
This poses an obvious legal problem. Such a duplication of a library routine can easily be viewed as a patent (or copyright) infringement by the company that sells the library. This is likely to not be noticed until our company's product is out the door and in use by customers. Then, when the vendor's lawyers get their teeth into it, our company is in really big trouble.
This didn't use to be a problem with java, because Sun was trustworthy, and didn't do such evil things to their customers. Oracle isn't like that. I fully expect that, if I ever get involved in a java development project again, I'll be the one that triggers just such an attack by Oracle's lawyers.
Pooh-pooing this won't convince me that I'm wrong. Calling me an idiot won't, either. What might is an explanation (that I understand;-) of exactly how I can avoid such a danger while doing a job that someone is paying me for. Telling me "Don't do something stupid" is not an explanation; it's part of the threat. My brain can't possibly hold all the information needed to avoid all the possible infringements of everything within Oracle's products, even if I could get access to all that information (which I can't). So the only way I can reasonably avoid doing something stupid is to just not develop software in the vicinity of Oracle products.
Of course, that may not protect me either, the way things are going.
-- Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Re:Annnnd?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Cathedral vs Bazaar? Someone still takes ESR seriously?
And while I agree what using Websphere is a waste of time, the replacement for it would be Glassfish or JBoss or Weblogic, not a plain servlet/jsp container like Tomcat.
Re:Annnnd?
by
Ramin_HAL9001
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· Score: 2, Insightful
At least the HotSpot JVM is GPL'd, that alone makes it better than.NET. LLVM is open source (though not GPL), so it may make a viable alternative to Java some day.
Other lightweight open source alternatives are Mozilla SpiderMonkey, GHCI (interactive Haskell interpreter), the Python VM, and the Perl VM, the Ruby VM, Parrot (does Perl, Python, and Ruby bytecode) and Emacs. Unfortunately, I don't see people writing web applications using Python or Perl (except for the back-end maybe). Emacs was once great, but lack of proper graphical interface programming means it is forever stuck in its niche as a text editor. Everything is changing over to JavaScript, so that leaves us with SpiderMonkey as the only hope for an open source VM (Google's V8 is not open source) that is both widely used and specially tuned for executing a popular programming language. But you can't really call JavaScript an alternative to Java, because the two technologies are so different.
The advantage of a virtual machine is that it isolates execution into a safe environment, but this advantage is superficial: since the VM increase the complexity of the application, it actually makes the attack surface larger and less secure. The only real advantage of using a VM is that it allows you to essentially outsource the job of porting the platform-specific implementation details of your software to the company that provides your virtual machine. And since Java is provided by Oracle, IBM, and Google (through Android), there is enough competition to keep Java technology fresh and modern (unless the patent wars wreck everything). And that is the best thing about Java: its popular, mature, and implemented by several huge and competing corporations. It's a shame that Java never integrated with browsers too well, and that's why Java lost out to JavaScript in the cloud computing world. Java is still an essential part of the enterprise though.
Actually, since Oracle just 'released' it, there probably aren't a lot of people who have it. Unless you define a 'lot' as 'everybody who downloaded and installed it'.
-- Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
Three things you have not mentioned in your reply:
1) No matter what technology you use, someone will hold a patent to it. Java is not exceptional in this regard
2) You assume all patents are valid, this is patently untrue (pun untended). Most patents are actually worthless and it is easy to find prior-art for many of them (eg. most of Oracle's patent claims against Google are worthless and have already been dismissed)
3) In the scenario you mention, where you re-invent a technology, well even if you do and someone notices it would be easy to change your re-invention to the standard implementation and thereby comply (in this case, with the Java patent licensing terms put into the JDK license). What you don't have a license to do is create something different and call it 'Java'. But if what you did was different then the patent wouldn't cover it, would it now?
I don't mean to insult your technical skills. However, I would suggest you do a little more research into recent patent cases before making, "the sky is falling" statements about Java on Slashdot. Good luck for your research:)
Actually we're smart enough to avoid Weblogic. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and we never take contracts that require use of such crappy tech - doing so is not good business.
Virtually every Java app I have created (especially on the web tier) has been write once run anywhere. Including a web app, which dynamically stiches audio files together on request, plus it was fast too.
There are a lot of java developers out there, not all are GREAT "java" developers..... Dont blame the Language on the operators.
You fail at reading comprehension. If GP wants "as good a reason to abandon javascript" as to abandon Java, obviously he is talking about two different languages.
-- To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
To suggest Ruby and Java are the least bit comparable is a joke.
Java is largely the definition commercialized enterprise institution. Ruby is the anti-establishment and is by definition, anti-enterprise. Hell, most of the Ruby community is anti-Python while so wanting to grow up to be python.
Calling Ruby anything other than a counter-culture, "hipster's" language, is disingenuous at best. And I place, "hipster" in quotes because real hipsters don't give a shit about programming languages.
And PyPy, which is likely the more significant of the two.
Parrot
Parrot is just a VM. Languages largely have nothing to do with it as it. I'll also point out LLVM, JVM, and PyPy, can all be used to support VMs for other languages.
I don't see people writing web applications using Python or Perl
Very disingenuous. Python is commonly used to develop lots and lots of web applications, which includes both front end and back end. Perl on the other hand, is largely not used for web at all anymore and is losing developer share in general. The fact you consider them comparable implies some type of intentioned slight against Python.
Everything is changing over to JavaScript
Yes, everything EXCEPT for MOST things. Javascript has definitely come into its own but in the grade scheme of things, it still pales in comparison to many other languages and platforms. And beyond that, most people really dislike Javascript, especially if they've used it very much. In the grand scheme of things for language features and syntax, Javascript rarely ranks high.
I'm assuming your anti-python bias stems from your javascript bias.
But you can't really call JavaScript an alternative to Java, because the two technologies are so different.
Exactly, which is why contrary to your assertion, Java and C will remain king from some time to come. In fact, given a choice, most people prefer Python over Java but the problem is that its not commercially backed by an enterprise vendor. Accordingly, Javascript is deemed the necessary evil because of its client/server web niche.
and Google (through Android), there is enough competition to keep Java technology fresh and modern
Not so. Google actually has a massive Java infrastructure investment. Android has absolutely NOTHING to do with that because Google's Android investment is 100% Dalvik, which absolutely is not Java. You're conflating Java the language with the JVM. Google's Android investment is 100% in Dalvik, which is a competitor to the JVM. As such, Google's Android investment is actually in spite of anything which is beneficial to the JVM.
It's a shame that Java never integrated with browsers too well,
Actually, me, like most people, are pretty happy about that. Consistently studies have shown that Java gained because its forced on developers at the enterprise level. Given an option they would typically choice some other language, with Python typically ranking fairly high. Accordingly, Javascript is in fact a crappy offshoot of Java and as such, also looked down on by most entrenched developers. Though given the options, Javascript is the lessor of the two browser (client side) evils.
The better question would be *Why the hell do you want to start developing something so heavyweight you would need to use these servers?" What are you going to achieve that can't be done faster with Spring, and/or Struts2 on Tomcat? Tomcat can host a ton of web apps, but it's nicer to hook a ton of them through Apache server.
I tried really hard to talk myself into Python a few months ago. Bought and read several books, wrote some code... and then discovered that the 2.6/3.0 thing is still a mess, with half the libraries on each side of this enduring divide that the Python community insisted at the time would never exist because the Python community would never have a legacy code problem because, well, it just wouldn't. AFAICS this disaster came about because the most important thing was not to do a single thing the Perl way. Unfortunately, excellent backwards compatibility (as in "works across the decades") was one Perl feature that really was worth copying.
I develop on Linux. The rest of my organisation uses Macs. After wasting several hours trying to get a very simple Python program to run unmodified across both platforms (PIL being the specific problem) we gave up and went back to a mix of older technology, all of which works perfectly across platforms. It's a pity, because Python looks really cute in theory, but in practice it was just an anagram of "long day", at least for our use case.
Um no. Implementation issues aside (stack vs. register), Dalvik is a virtual machine that runs the Java language using an incompatible byte code dictionary. That said the byte code that can run in Oracle's JVM can be easily mapped into byte codes that can be executed within Dalvik. The fact that Android (ie Dalvik) isn't using Java SE libraries is immaterial to Oracle v. Google.
-- These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
The underpinning problem with Dalvik is that its implementation follows many JVM specifications. For example:
The binary format, not the actual instructions themselves, follows very closely to Java's binary class format (I think this one is a weak argument, but it is one that Oracle is throwing.)
The method used to pre-process the binary code and package the binary so that it can be pre-processed is very similar in both. (This one is a little bit less weak because the binary headers look almost the same between the two, not true for ELF binary format versus PE/COFF for Windows or Mach-O on Apple.)
Dalvik uses the same method that the JVM uses to resolve references in native code. (Basically both Dalvik and the JVM read memory from the underlying system using the same native code process, the native instructions aren't 1:1 per se but the general method is exactly the same. This could really be up for debate because the method could be argued as pretty generic.)
There are a couple of more but I'm not recalling them right off the top of my head. Let's not make the argument as petty as the use the same language, Java. That's not exactly what Oracle is claiming that Google did. Besides, Google is a bit at fault here. They could have built on top of IcedTea and have a GPL Android platform sans the lawsuits.
The underpinning problem with Dalvik is that its implementation follows many JVM specifications. For example:
No it doesn't. They specifically break away from JVM specifications because Java's formats are slower and hinder some of both speed and memory optimizations.
The binary format, not the actual instructions themselves, follows very closely to Java's binary class format (I think this one is a weak argument, but it is one that Oracle is throwing.)
With this definition, anything is everything. Furthermore, law specifically allows for interoperability. But beyond that, there isn't any similarities worth noting as they specifically did not care to retain any interoperability. That's the first I've heard such a claim. If in fact they are making such a claim, its like saying you and I are the exact same person because we happen to have the same hair cut.
The method used to pre-process the binary code and package the binary so that it can be pre-processed is very similar in both.
Of course its the same because its the exact same tools UNTIL the dalvik tools are used. After that, the only thing they have in common is the fact they are stored in zip files. With this logic, Oracle is in violation of every zip file format.
Besides, Google is a bit at fault here. They could have built on top of IcedTea and have a GPL Android platform sans the lawsuits.
That's a red herring Oracle propaganda position and is not true at all.
No it doesn't. They specifically break away from JVM specifications because Java's formats are slower and hinder some of both speed and memory optimizations.
I guess the best way to present this would be if I had a patent on eating cereal (which would and should be ruled invalid but let's not get off the point here.) If my method is to grab cereal, grab bowl, grab milk, pour cereal into bowl, pour milk into bowl... put milk up, put cereal up, grab spoon, eat, then just because your method is to leave the box of cereal out until done eating and grab the spoon while getting the bowl just to save time; doesn't mean you haven't infringe on my cereal eating idea. We are both basically eating cereal. I'm with you I hate patents that do this kind of thing, but it is the argument that I am making that has gotten Google into trouble. Both Dalvik and JVM use the same "processes" to load bytecode, preprocess bytecode, look up symbols in native code, etc... The bytecode is different between the two and the steps to process the bytecode are different but the overall effect is the same.
With this definition, anything is everything. Furthermore, law specifically allows for interoperability. But beyond that, there isn't any similarities worth noting as they specifically did not care to retain any interoperability. That's the first I've heard such a claim. If in fact they are making such a claim, its like saying you and I are the exact same person because we happen to have the same hair cut.
Well exactly. I'm not saying its a valid argument, it's pretty weak in my book, but it is an argument none-the-less that is being made. However, I don't know if you analogy is correct but whatever, point being it's a pretty weak argument and I think you got the point. The idea isn't that their is interoperability, I could very well make my own version of Mach-O and it not run on an Apple computer, all I really have to do is change the magic number or just put the static init code in a different place, its still Mach-O just it won't work on Apple. Likewise, I can take a Java class file and very easily change it for register based processing by changing a couple of thing in the class file, it still is a Java class file with just a couple of parts moved around (NOT SAYING that, that's exactly what Google did but I'm just simply illustrating a point that to be different you have to be very different.)
Of course its the same because its the exact same tools UNTIL the dalvik tools are used. After that, the only thing they have in common is the fact they are stored in zip files. With this logic, Oracle is in violation of every zip file format.
I think you are thinking about that point at too high a level. I'm not talking about ZIP files, I am talking about things like moving long pointers and long jump instructions to pre-defined locations to better optimize how code is executed and provide better predictability in the JIT pipe. The fact that those locations are wrapped up in a ZIP file is pretty irrelevant. Google could have used RAR or gzip, it's not the bread that your using on the sandwich that's being questioned it's the contents and how they are ordered. (I must be really hungry because I'm using a lot of food analogies.)
That's a red herring Oracle propaganda position and is not true at all.
Actually that's the FSF propaganda position, and it is very true. Google chose Harmony from Apache which was a questionable move. Google could have used IcedTea which was already GPL and would have been less questionable. I really think Harmony is a great project and I really think that Oracle should rethink their stance on the Java TCK, but they haven't. Thus it has tossed Harmony into question and products derived from it even more so. It is a fairly obvious observation. Build things upon things that are in question will bring your thing into question. Build things upo
Then I shouldn't need to install Java for the Android SDK.
Re:lawsuit
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
because Java's formats are slower
This is slightly misleading because they're optimized for different use cases. Dalvik is optimized for startup time and memory use but it's almost always much, much slower for long running processes.
The binary format, not the actual instructions themselves, follows very closely to Java's binary class format (I think this one is a weak argument, but it is one that Oracle is throwing.)
They're throwing it around because one of their patents is specifically for the.class file format (I don't know what could possibly be patentable there, but there goes)
They could have built on top of IcedTea and have a GPL Android platform sans the lawsuits.
They couldn't, since GPL (v2) is immaterial to Sun/Oracle's patents - it does not have any kind of patent grant.
> Dalvik is a virtual machine that runs the Java language
Dalvik is a virtual machine that runs any language compiled into its bytecode.
Java is a language that can be compiled into multiple bytecodes (eg, JVM or LLVM).
On Android, Java is compiled to JVM bytecode (using either javac, or Eclipse's compiler) and then a Google compiler compiles JVM bytecode into Dalvik bytecode.
Many other languages that compile into JVM bytecode already run on Android. The Java language is one of many source languages that have compilers to the JVM bytecode.
--
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
You sound pretty knowledgeable about Java and the Dalvik JVM, and I enjoyed reading your post. I'll just point out that the speed and memory issues of Java from Oracle vs Dalvik are so in the noise compared to real optimization, it's pointless to bicker about it. Both systems suffer from insane inefficiency due to memory layout, resulting in horrible cache performance. If you want to talk about pure CPU efficiency for applications that are not memory hogs, I can tell you from benchmarks I've performed that Oracle's JVM is very close to hand coded C performance. I found that my Sonic speech speed-up library performed only 4% slower in Oracle's Java and OpenJDK. There is simply no way that the Dalvik JVM does much better. So, if you really think performance is a compelling reason to choose Dalvik, I implore you to offer some compelling evidence that there is any performance to be had. Both Dalvik and Oracle's JVM suck, but both are quite comparable in their lack of performance.
-- Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
Re:lawsuit
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
So yeah, in short they will sue you if you read this article.
This is slightly misleading because they're optimized for different use cases. Dalvik is optimized for startup time and memory use but it's almost always much, much slower for long running processes.
Its not misleading at all because I assumed those reading would have the intelligence to place it in proper context - in mobile computing.
I'll just point out that the speed and memory issues of Java from Oracle vs Dalvik are so in the noise compared to real optimization,
My comments are specifically focused on the Dalvik target platform. Java ME leveraged existing, entrenched formats. For mobile platforms this has many disadvantages. Dalvik's design specifically broke from this because in doing so they directly gained advantaged in their fork/COW model. So bluntly stating it, Dalvik's approach purposely broke with Java's design (and by extention Java ME's limitations) so as to provide better performance and reduce memory footprint given the limitations of a mobile computing platform.
Both systems suffer from insane inefficiency due to memory layout,
Exactly, and Java ME suffers here specifically because they carried over a lot of burden from the desktop environment which does not have such platform constraints.
Both systems suffer from insane inefficiency due to memory layout
This is true, but Dalvik suffers less specifically because they did not carry forward Java ME's flaws. Its one thing to far from optimal (in context of the mobile environment), as is the case with Java (and by extension Java ME) and another to not be perfectly optimal. Frequently there exists a large area in between for improvement. Dalvik is far from optimal by still far more optimized than Java ME in so far as loading of its file formats.
If you want to talk about pure CPU efficiency for applications that are not memory hogs, I can tell you from benchmarks I've performed that Oracle's JVM is very close to hand coded C performance.
Not really topical at all. And of course, the "close to hand coded C performance", is always inaccurate without the long, long list of caveats of conditions. But again, not the least bit topical. Again, context is everything. Context here is deviation from file formats (specifically those contained with the zip files). Factually, one (Dalvik) is far more optimal for a mobile platform than the other (Java ME, JVM).
You seem to be under the extremely false impression I'm asserting Dalvik is more optimized than Java ME. I never made any such assertion. Again, context is everything.
I did, however, assert the file formats and utilization of those formats, and corresponding memory models, are far more optimal for Dalvik than Java ME; which they absolutely are. That, however, is not even close to more generalized claims of superior overall performance, which I absolutely never claimed.
Are you trying to claim that the issue is that is uses a human interface (the high level language) that looks too much like java?
Looks like java? Even if you ignore the fact that the source code is.java, and compiled with javac, and concentrate purely on the.dex binary output, you can still look inside it and see that all the classes inherit from a class called "java.lang.Object"...
Show me a functional app running on android where `strings classes.dex | grep java | wc -l` returns zero, and I will concede that you have a valid point...
-- I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
The devkit being written in java is irrelevant; the devkit being java does seem quite relevant though. Even though android takes the vanilla java and post-processes it a bit, it still has references to things like "java.lang.Object" in the finished binary...
-- I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
Google must be watching...
by
bogaboga
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· Score: 0
I am sure Google is watching this front carefully. I mean, it (Google), will weave any [new] developments in this release into Dalvik as well, while reminding us that "Dalvik is not Java."
Re:Google must be watching...
by
Baloroth
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· Score: 2
Ummm, I think you need to look up clean room design, which is supposedly what Dalvik is. New developments can be worked into Dalvik through that process, while definitely keeping Dalvik as "not Java". It's Java in pretty much the same way an AMD processor is an Intel processor. They do the same thing, pretty much, they just do it completely different ways (or at least ways that aren't based on each other). Result: Oracle is being evil, Google not so much.
-- "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
Re:Google must be watching...
by
GooberToo
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· Score: 1
will weave any [new] developments in this release into Dalvik as well
Can you tell us which valid patents (or at least likely valid; and no I don't mean granted patents) Dalvik is infringing which is part of the JVM?
Originally Oracle claimed copyright and patent violations. From what I read, all of the copyright crap has proven to be just that - crap. And of the supposed 236 patents which Dalvik violated, over 220 are patents which should have never been granted by the USPO. So on and so on; leaving only about three of any serious point of contention. So honestly, which actually valid patents is Dalvik in violation?
Re:Google must be watching...
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2, Interesting
Not quite AMD started with an intel design. When Intel couldnt make enough 386 chips they got AMD to do help them (and a bunch others). That meant 'here are the plans to make it'.
Ummm, I think you need to look up clean room design [wikipedia.org], which is supposedly what Dalvik is.
I think you may need to review the definition of "clean room design". I assumed that the GP was talking about Google reviewing the JSRs related to Java 7 and not the actual source code of OpenJDK 7.
-- These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
I think you may have confirmed the sarcastic humor of the GP. He never mentioned patents, instead he was poking fun at people who insist that "Dalvik is not Java". You on the other hand fell into his trap by essentially saying "Yes Dalvik is Java! Now what patents are being infringed?"
-- These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
Re:Google must be watching...
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Sounds to me like the OP came up with the usual "Dalvik is Java" line, and the poster you are referring to simply said "Prove it, and incidentally, the following old chestnuts that have been brought up before have proven invalid". At what point did anyone admit to Dalvik being Java?
Re:Google must be watching...
by
GooberToo
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· Score: 1
Actually I didn't fall into the trap. I'm normally the voice of reason of saying exactly what you're saying while being troll moderated to hell. I decided I'd try something different and try to see if he was joking or not and if not, to determine which, if any patents people believe actually have any merit. I mean, are you not a little curious to read about these so called few patents which, according to some, may actually have at least some debatable merit? I know I am.
Regardless, at this point I'm convinced the copyright claims are completely bogus and 236 patents in violation is completely out of Oracle's ass. Of the 236, the counter claim from the peanut gallery of three or so having at least some debatable merit seems plausible and I'd like to learn more about those. Wanting to learn is hardly the same thing as buy in or even outright validation. And even still, my gut says even three is iffy. But again, given the nature of a lot of patent disputes, three still seems very plausible.
Re:Google must be watching...
by
slack_justyb
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· Score: 1
Some of the ones still outstanding:
#5,966,702 #6,910,205 #7,426,720
Not saying they are valid just answering your question. There are a couple of more and I even think that Oracle was ordered to reduce the claims down to three distinct violations, of which, I am not sure if any of these were cited.
However, Google is in a sort of hot mess right now because all of the patents have to be proven invalid, a recent review of Google employee's email show that they were indeed worried about the legal ramifications of their implementation. With a going back and forth between Google employee's over should a license to Java be acquired before going forward. http://allthingsd.com/20110727/old-email-may-bite-google-in-java-patent-suit/
Re:Google must be watching...
by
GooberToo
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· Score: 1
Thank you. With Oracle's claims, its probably best to start saying, "patents", and/or, "valid". Making sure they are always wrapped with quotes.
Re:Google must be watching...
by
jmak
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· Score: 1
Considering the bytecode didn't change between Java 6 and 7, they can just watch and get all the Java 7 benefits for free.
Re:Google must be watching...
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
[Citation Needed]
Re:Google must be watching...
by
slack_justyb
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· Score: 1
Very valid statement. Some of Oracle's "patents" are of questionable "validity."
Re:Google must be watching...
by
Tomato42
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· Score: 2
Around Athlon AMD started to use completely different microarchitecture than Intel.
Re:Google must be watching...
by
Waffle+Iron
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· Score: 3, Informative
Not quite AMD started with an intel design. When Intel couldnt make enough 386 chips they got AMD to do help them (and a bunch others). That meant 'here are the plans to make it'.
Wrong. If 8086 chips were going to be put in the PC, IBM required that Intel have a second source manufacturer for the parts. So Intel contracted with AMD to also crank out the chips.
Intel tried to cancel this arrangement when the 80386 was introduced, and a long legal battle followed. In the mean time, AMD started a clean room design of a 386 clone. AMD has had their own distinct designs since then, and I'm sure that there's just about nothing from pre-386 chip internals that is in any way relevant to current CPU designs.
Somewhere along the line, the two companies also did a patent cross-licensing agreement, which allows them to freely copy each other's concepts.
Re:Google must be watching...
by
dakameleon
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· Score: 1
They might be using a different micro-architecture but it's still x86 compatible.
-- Man who leaps off cliff jumps to conclusion.
Re:Google must be watching...
by
icebraining
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· Score: 2
Yes it did, JSR 292 added the InvokeDynamic instruction to the bytecode.
Re:Google must be watching...
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
That's kind of the point.
Java Facts and Figures
by
luizd
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· Score: 5, Funny
* 97% of enterprise desktops run Java * 1 billion Java downloads each year * 9 million developers worldwide * #1 programming language (TIOBE Programming Community Index) * More than 3 billion devices are powered by Java technology
They forgot one:
* #1 programming language used in judicial patent cases
Re:Java Facts and Figures
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
* #2 at nagging users to upgrade coming in behind Adobe Flash
Re:Java Facts and Figures
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Most of all, they forgot the ad populum fallacy. Like that signature: "Eat shit! A billion flies can't be wrong!" ^^
And I'm saying that as a Java programmer. (Well... At least it's grown-up enough to be able to manage its own memory, instead of pissing pointers all over itself. [...or expecting you to re-invent the wheel yet again.];)
<fanboi> I still prefer Haskel, to which I'm migrating right now. (I finally "got" monads. Yay! [You're normally hearing all this stuff about them being so hard to get, and therefore think it would be hard for you too. The trick is, that it's actually a very easy concept. The people who try to explain it are just really bad at explaining, because they oversimplify things with stupid analogies. ^^]) They have the most friendly and educated IRC channel I've ever seen. the C/C++ channels look like a diner full of scum-class construction workers in comparison.;) Also, they *really* think about stuff.... It is awesome to, as a experienced programmer, still feel like a n00b to which it's all Greek... and then get it, and suddenly become so much more powerful as a programmer. </fanboi>
Re:Java Facts and Figures
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
* More than 3 billion devices are powered by Java technology
How many will be left after the Android injunction?
Re:Java Facts and Figures
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
and then get it, and suddenly become so much more powerful as a programmer.
... and then go and write another quicksort implementation.
Why's that whenever Haskell's mentioned it's always "OMG, I understood monads and learned that tongue-breaking CS term!" and almost never "OMG, I wrote this neat program that will be incredibly useful for everyone!"?
Re:Java Facts and Figures
by
jonabbey
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· Score: 2
They're counting Android in that '3 billion', of course.
Re:Java Facts and Figures
by
perryizgr8
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· Score: 1
every damn cell phone these days has a jvm installed in it.
-- Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
Re:Java Facts and Figures
by
Vectormatic
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· Score: 1
Good old symbian s60 on nokia phones features a J2ME VM, probably their S40 phones do too.
-- People, what a bunch of bastards
Re:Java Facts and Figures
by
drinkypoo
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· Score: 1
When is the last time you actually saw a basic cellphone WITHOUT Java? In the states it is all but impossible to find one. My Siemens S80 suppository phone (well, it looks like one... for a larger than man-sized creature) had a black and white screen with only a couple hundred pixels in any direction and IT had a JVM, and some crappy games to run on it.
-- "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Project Lambda
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 4, Insightful
Project lambda was arguably the most important planned addition to the JDK7, but apparently got dropped in the last few months and pushed back to JDK8. To be honest Project Coin, Fork/Join, and InvokeDynamic are useful, but not much of a big deal as Project Lambda.
Re:Project Lambda
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
It's a pity even the proposal of Java large array got dropped from Project Coin. Current Java arrays are limited to 2^32 elements, which should be enough for many except for, perhaps, scientists. Huge arrays should be implemented by now since 2^32 single-precision floating point elements take 16GB, which is well within the reach of commodity desktops. Exon-exon interaction map could benefit from huge array indices since it involves arrays of at least 300000^2 elements. To get around this, we implemented a really ugly hack.
If you want lambdas and such, why wouldn't you just use LISP or Scheme instead of trying to hack it into a C-syntax family language.
Not only that, but tacking lambdas on to Java is going to be some crazy reuse of syntax instead of having a well-designed syntax for it.
So then, you're neither here nor there. Neither do you have a powerful, but possibly tricky language, nor do you have a dead simple language for programming corporate CRUD apps.
-- I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
Re:Project Lambda
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1
Probably the biggest planned change was the switch to releasing it under the GPL. We shouldn't underestimate the work involved with re-implementing many of the libraries that Sun was licensing from 3rd parties.
Given what we had been told would be part of this release during the eternity since 1.6 was released, it's natural that the massively scaled down release would seem underwhelming. But hopefully with this release done, the next release can focus on adding more goodies.
If you want lambdas and such, why wouldn't you just use LISP or Scheme instead of trying to hack it into a C-syntax family language.
Because those languages have different features than a language like Java -- the biggest being that they are not statically typed. It's a useful enough feature that hacking it into the language is worth it.
Also, there's tons of Java code and programmers already in place, and people don't want to abandon it all just to gain a new feature.
If you want lambdas and such, why wouldn't you just use LISP or Scheme [racket-lang.org] instead of trying to hack it into a C-syntax family language.
Because the main competing C-derived language to Java (C#), which is also the key systems language for the main competing managed framework to the JVM (.NET) already has "lambdas and such", while still having the rest of syntax more accessible than Lisp-family languages to the vast number of developers that have strong backgrounds in C-derived languages but less background in Lisp-family languages.
Not only that, but tacking lambdas on to Java is going to be some crazy reuse of syntax instead of having a well-designed syntax for it.
The syntax seems very well designed to me, and is fairly similar lambda syntax in C# and other non-Lisp-family languages.
Because you already have a large code base in Java, that you intend to develop further, and would like the language to provide better features as you go on?
Because you want to use the existing wealth of Java libraries and frameworks?
Because you have a lot of people who already know Java, and for whom learning lambdas will be much easier than re-learning everything from scratch?
Speaking of lambdas, Project Lambda folks are doing polls on syntax right now, and asked to spread the word. There will be a series of simple polls to gauge relative preferences; this is the first one - go and vote!
It's been gone for a while from the JDK 7, which simply got split between 7 and 8. And with good reason, it was just taking too much time, and Java is not the language people should screw up.
I'm not waiting that hard for Lambda, in my opinion it's a language feature that really requires a lot from the platform, is very strong but not very good for maintenance. I can already see it being used for interfaces and I can already see my less apt collegues making a mess of it. Heck, even I think it is a helluva step, with many weird consequences. Generics are bad enough, I can show you code that probably takes a normal programmer at least half an hour staring at before things start to dawn (ok, it is a library for sets of enums, but still).
I don't like the way the new languages are all about sparsity and strength of features. None of them are more secure or more maintainable than Java. Strangely engouh, you never hear anybody complain about their speed either (probably because the Java crowd is different from the C++ crowd in that respect). Hopefully project Lambda will get it right, and we get a strong but readable form of lambda expressions.
I'd rather they get consensus about what is needed before lambda's are implemented - better than putting one in and finding out it wasn't what people wanted. Turns out plenty of software can still be written in Java without Lambdas (as has been for the last 15 years) - they are a nifty feature, but not essential.
Re:Project Lambda
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 1
Because editors that perform code-refactoring are hard pressed to keep up with the syntax of the week. When you have 1M people coding towards a common base platform, then you can quickly build off each other's successes (both open-source and commercially). If EVERYBODY is going their own direction, you get what we've had for the past 50 years in CIS.. Stagnation, redoing the same old algorithms and libraries over and over again.. How many times must I re-learn a CRUD dialog? stdin, curses, X, windows 3.0, Mac, HTML + tables. HTML + CSS, HTML + Javascript + Ajax, jQuery.xxx. Flash. AWT, SWING, TK, applets, blackberry-dialogs, android-dialogs, silverlight, GWT. JSP/JSF/taglets/webworks/spring-MVC/stripes/seam. Objective-C dialogs? I'm sick of it I tell you. And being an old foggie, I've missed out on like 10 rails-style builders. I feel like I'm only ever able to write hello world's level of complexity. Until we can actually start building instead of rebuilding (with the vast majority of human resources), AI is perpetually going to be 100 years away.
I know some people will prefer a php, ruby, C++ (I rule out OS-targetted languages - namely those who's vast wealth of libraries and development support are specific to a given platform - like Objective-C and.NET), but I've felt the most productive with large / advanced algorithms in Java. 100,000 lines of code in java is FAR more error proof than C++, and I would venture to say ruby/php as well (given that they are so loose in syntax you can't validate / refactor them safely). And yes, I know that 40,000 lines of ruby is equivalent to 100,000 lines of java - but lack of safe refactoring is still an issue. I also rule out the lack of modularity of common PHP packages. Perl/Python/Java/C++ allow safe compartmentalization. Perl/Java (and I assume Python) very nicely allow safe module loading (e.g. if I don't have a module, I can gracefully take alternate action) - I can do so safely in multi-threaded environments (less so with Perl/Python). I can package and deploy the code centrally or in a private network at zero extra cost/technical-risk (sshd +/etc/password + apache == secure java maven-module repository).
If I need to create a project for someone, and I don't want to have to re-invent the wheel on almost any algorithm. If I want it to farm out to 50 developers, but I don't want to have to invent a project-management beuracracy.. If I need the project to scale to 500 machines - but I don't want to have to invent a network fabric. If I want to maximize high-CPU counts (e.g. 24 per machine) on complex image/video-processing/batch-processing (and I may or may not want to risk C++ linkage). If I want intricate timing, timeouts, locking.. And more importantly, I want to delegate out to other developers of questionable skill level - and have THEM properly handle threading, locking, timeouts, etc.
Then today, it's a no brainier for me to recommend java. Yes individual languages excel at some aspects of the above (PHP,Ruby,C++), but none do all sufficiently - at least not without very careful coordination with all the developers.
But once it gets to the UI - all best are off, sadly.
Flame away..
-- -Michael
Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
Bloodwine77
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· Score: 1
I currently have Version 6 Update 26 installed on all my home computers. Will that be the final release of the version 6 branch? I hate using x.0 releases until they work out any kinks or bugs, but I have also been bitten by having an old Java version installed (it is the only vector that has successfully installed malware on my computers).
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
francium+goes+boom
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· Score: 3, Interesting
And we have applications that REQUIRE specific java versions. I wish i could uninstall all the previous versions.
Right now i have: 1.4.2.11 1.6.010 1.6.17 1.6.26
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
h4rr4r
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· Score: 4, Interesting
Find the developers and beat the ever living shit out of them. How you can fail at Java that hard I will never understand.
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
curunir
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· Score: 3, Informative
According to this page, you've got until July, 2012 before they stop supporting 1.6. When 1.6 was released, they continued to release fixes for 1.5, so I would assume they'll do the same for the 1.6 to 1.7 transition.
-- "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
It's more likely that the company only tested it under those specific versions and is only willing to support it under those versions (not that that's an excuse for it... but it's probably not the devs fault)
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
Nivag064
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· Score: 1
Version 6 Update 23 is due to be released soon, it is already at beta 3.
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
rubycodez
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· Score: 0
you're half right...find the jvm developers and beat the living shit out of them. Documented backward incompatibilities. of course, some maintain that's what the jvm and j2ee is, the diseased shit out of a certain kind of developer
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
Nivag064
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· Score: 1
I meant: Version 6 Update 27
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
Cramer
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· Score: 1
There are several applets that simply will not function with an updated version... whatever was "fixed" ends up wrecking the app. Cisco's PDM is one of them; I think it was somewhere around 1.6U13(?) where it's broken.
But then, yes, there are devs *cough*netbotz*cough* that deserve execution for wiring the full version string into the app. But given the overall lameness of Java, I'll let it slide, esp. given serious incompatibilities between major revs and the very ugly subtle problems between updates.
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Java has always been perfectly backwards compatible. If you broke it you had to be poking somewhere deep, deep in the forbidden zone.
You know, like system.getenv which used to be part of the api and suddenly disappeared only to come back from the grave once they got a clue or any custom tablecelleditor instead of one of the default ones since the damn logic was fundamentally broken and had to be replaced.
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
shutdown+-p+now
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· Score: 1
Java is actually not particularly well designed from versioning point of view. For example, if a new release of Java adds a new method in some class, and you inherit from that class in your code and had a method with the same name and signature, your method now becomes an unintentional override.
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
syousef
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· Score: 1
Find the developers and beat the ever living shit out of them. How you can fail at Java that hard I will never understand.
That's some interesting pay and benefits you're offering for your support developer team. Where do I sign up?
No seriously, I could do with a multi-million dollar law suit and an early retirement. I should be able to make a deal with a lawyer where we both get rich.
-- These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
Lothsahn
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· Score: 4, Interesting
Or how about this:
I'm a developer on an enterprise application suite that exercises critical bugs in Java 6 Update 18-24 (we haven't yet tested 25 and 26). Oracle introduced a regression in 6u18 that they fixed in 6u21, but in 6u20 or 6u21 they introduced yet another regression. Both regressions cause a complete crash of the JDK that, on busy production systems, causes a complete crash, usually 1+ times a day.
Therefore, we can only recommend 6u17 as the stable version of the software, because 6u18+ isn't. I would strongly prefer that you not "beat the ever living shit out of me" for Oracle not being able to create a stable JVM for an enterprise product.
We'd get an Oracle support agreement to get these problems resolved, but you wouldn't BELIEVE how much money they want for such support. And even if we did pay Oracle a BOATLOAD of money, there's no guarantee that they'd even fix our issues--just that they would listen.
on busy production systems, causes a complete crash, usually 1+ times a day.
Java7 doesn't appear to be much better for stability. I just got this email today:
Hello Apache Lucene & Apache Solr users,
Hello users of other Java-based Apache projects,
Oracle released Java 7 today. Unfortunately it contains hotspot compiler
optimizations, which miscompile some loops. This can affect code of several
Apache projects. Sometimes JVMs only crash, but in several cases, results
calculated can be incorrect, leading to bugs in applications (see Hotspot
bugs 7070134 [1], 7044738 [2], 7068051 [3]).
-- -=Lothsahn=-
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
You'll find that a lot more often than you would think. As IT support, what are you supposed to do? A lot of the times most of your choices for a solution use a specific version of Java. Some even use it as a tool to get you to upgrade to their latest product. Oh, you are using version 4.2.1? You'll need to upgrade to 4.5 (and pay maintenance) to get to Java Version 6 Update 20.
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
maraist
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· Score: 1
You'd have to be doing something pretty hokey for this to be an issue. OutputStream maybe - since people wrap those all the time. Link-time, the only problem I can see is if you happened to have the same input signature but a different return type - as that would normally be a syntax error - the class-loader validator would probably fail hard.
That being said.. How else could you handle this? Contain both version 1.2 OutputStream AND version 1.7 ? Not seeing that as a practical.
I've definitely been hit with version mismatches - but they're almost always a missing method errors. Now things like maven really solve this problem nicely (albeit not perfectly).
-- -Michael
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
shutdown+-p+now
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· Score: 1
Link-time, the only problem I can see is if you happened to have the same input signature but a different return type - as that would normally be a syntax error - the class-loader validator would probably fail hard.
I'm not just talking about obvious hard errors. If the signature does match, and you end up overriding, there's no error from the class loader, but it is quite likely that things will be screwed up at runtime; e.g. one method on the base class calls that overriden method, expecting it to adhere to a specific contract, and since your override doesn't know that it's an override, it does not respect that contract.
That being said.. How else could you handle this?
Making overrides explicit (as in C#, Scala etc) rather than defaulting to override whenever signatures match.
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
maraist
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· Score: 1
But it's a matter of opinion whether this is an error or not. If I've subclassed a method and my base class one day implements it too with the same name with a protected or public method then it's fine... If they implement it as private then (and I can't remember which happens) you either fail hard or it calls it's local private - both of which are fine. If you're extending 3rd party code you MUST take into account version mismatch issues - namely you must build a robust packager. If you're extending your own code, then there's no sense for bad taste.
That being said, I have made judisciuos use of the @Override method to do half of what you've described - the half that I think is more important.
-- -Michael
Re:Version 6 Update 26 the last of Version 6?
by
shutdown+-p+now
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· Score: 1
But it's a matter of opinion whether this is an error or not. If I've subclassed a method and my base class one day implements it too with the same name with a protected or public method then it's fine
How do you know? You haven't "subclassed" a method, you just wrote it. Just because it has a matching name and signature doesn't mean that it does the same thing, or correctly respects the contract of the method it now suddenly overrides from the base class.
Another bag of shite that will get the computers under my stewardship infected with crap.
Seriously folks, if you really don't need it, uninstall it.
--
Never email donotemail@WeAreSpammers.com
Isn't this the problem?
by
MrEricSir
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· Score: 4, Funny
You don't make a good language by smashing a bunch of "projects" together. If you do that, you end up with C++.
-- There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
Re:Isn't this the problem?
by
jojoba_oil
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· Score: 1
I disagree.
There are quite a few situations where the bloat of Java doesn't fit. One of those is writing operating systems and drivers. Another is writing games. Sure, there are a few games here and there (Altitude, Minecraft) written with Java; however, a significantly greater number of games are written in C++.
It's kind of like Lua vs Python. When you need a huge set of libraries built into the language's standard library, go with Python. When you don't need all that bloat, use Lua.
You don't make a good language by smashing a bunch of "projects" together. If you do that, you end up with C++.
On the other hand, having people use new features for a few years "in the wild", before incorporating them into the language seems like a pretty reasonable way to do things.
-- sic transit gloria mundi
Re:Isn't this the problem?
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
people use new features for a few years "in the wild", before incorporating them into the language seems like a pretty reasonable way to do things.
For Java in particular, that's what C# is for. ~
Re:Isn't this the problem?
by
Ossifer
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· Score: 1
Which C++?
Re:Isn't this the problem?
by
WaywardGeek
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· Score: 1
I'm somewhat tipsy (I'm hanging out at my in-laws, and need the drink), but I'll dive into the endless language debate. I LOVE Python, and have only good things to say about it. But, I wont use it for CPU intensive tasks, as it's not meant for it. For CPU intensive algorithms, it's pretty much C, C++, or Java (sorry Lua). C++ by default (without writing your own memory allocators) is about the same speed as Java, in my experience. Of course, in C, you have to do it all. If you do that well, you'll kick ass.
-- Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
Re:Isn't this the problem?
by
perryizgr8
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· Score: 1
i always wondered why minecraft looks so primitive and still needs such high system requirements. now i know.
-- Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
Re:Isn't this the problem?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
How amusing. It just so happens that the different features in C++ integrate better than the features of Java. C++ would never add a switch that works on integral types and strings only, there would be a way to make it work with every type. The cohesion of the features in C++ is much better than the cohesion of java, and the forthcoming lambda in java will be a sad joke compared to lambda in many other languages, including C++0x. Java can't escape its historical design problems, and it shows in the lambda proposal.
fuck you oracle
by
hosecoat
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· Score: 1, Flamebait
that's right, fuck you
Re:fuck you oracle
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Wish I could mod this up!
Yahoo Toolbar - Go away please
by
landoltjp
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· Score: 5, Interesting
Dear Oracle,
Please turn off the default installation of the Yahoo Toolbar. I don't know why you have it checked on, but I am happy to decide for MYSELF what I Want to install on my machine.
Re:Yahoo Toolbar - Go away please
by
h4rr4r
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· Score: 5, Funny
Dear landoltjp,
We will not as we make a lot of money from that bundling. We don't care what you want, try to remember that ORACLE is an acronym for One Rich Asshole Called Larry Ellison.
Re:Yahoo Toolbar - Go away please
by
jojoba_oil
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· Score: 1
They would make far less money that way...
Re:Yahoo Toolbar - Go away please
by
archen
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· Score: 1
Didn't that appear before Sun was bought by Oracle? I would guess that was an attempt at Sun to stay afloat more than Oracle to make more money. Likely now they're obligated to package it from some contract that hasn't expired.
Re:Yahoo Toolbar - Go away please
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
LOLROFL!
Re:Yahoo Toolbar - Go away please
by
fnj
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· Score: 1
We can't have that, now, can we.
Re:Yahoo Toolbar - Go away please
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Dear landoltjp,
You CAN decide for yourself what you want to install on your machine by unchecking the single checkbox to disable this function. We apologize that a product distributed to tens of millions of users does not have the defaults tailored just for you.
Best regards,
Oracle
Re:Yahoo Toolbar - Go away please
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
The only difference between Larry Ellison and God is that God does not think He's Larry Ellison.
Re:Yahoo Toolbar - Go away please
by
domatic
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· Score: 1
It takes some digging but you can download an offline installer that doesn't include the "value add-ons". It is for enterprise deployments and developers.
Java 7 not supported under VMware or MS Hypervisor
by
jweinshe
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· Score: 1
and not even supported under Oracle's current Type-1 Hypervisor Oracle VM 2.2
http://jdk7.java.net/JDK7SupportedSystemConfigurations.html - note this: All supported platforms are supported when virtualized in a supported hypervisor Supported hypervisors are: Oracle VM 3.x, VirtualBox 3.x, 4.x, Solaris Containers and Solaris LDOMs. Except where noted. VMWare and Microsoft Hypervisor NOT supported
(After which it will still be updated, but on a paid-only basis.)
Actually, probably longer if you have a proprietary Unix OS such as Mac OS X, AIX or HP-UX where the OS vendor ships patches. The OS vendors usually find it easier to just issue patches for the old version rather than adding support for a new one.
Funny enough, I just set up an Ubuntu box and decided to grab JDK 7 without knowing that today would be the day it was "released". As such, I downloaded it directly from Oracle/Sun/Java/Whatever..
Note, I then installed Eclipse Indigo, which was having some problems with some of the plugins. I added the following line to the eclipse.ini file and the problems went away:
Note, I then installed Eclipse Indigo, which was having some problems with some of the plugins. I added the following line to the eclipse.ini file and the problems went away:
-Djava.util.Arrays.useLegacyMergeSort=true
Damn that's scary. If it breaks Eclipse what else does it break?
-- XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
It breaks things that improperly implement the Comparable interface then try to sort objects that implement that interface.
*sigh*... I've seen more invalid implementations of Comparable than valid ones.
However, the reason for the change is that there's a new implementation of the default merge sort that is much faster for partially sorted input and small collections so if we get over the adoption phase it will speed up a lot of legacy code.
-- XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
Be warned that the Java 7 BETA plugins are just that, I've seen it create invalid byte code, something I haven't seen for a while. I'll be filing a bug report on monday (forgot to mail it to my home). It's good enough to test the Java features though, and it even packs some Java 7 refactoring (on e.g. the multi-catch statement).
Re:Ubuntu
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Probably they'll delay the upgrade in the repositories, because there are several bugs in Java 7 causing application crashes. Looks that Oracle released Beta quality software.
Keep an eye on Pypy (python virtual machine with just-in-time compiler). Dynamic, fast (and getting faster), nice and highly flexible syntax. Programming in python is pure fun, not pain.
They did not announce it
by
Eirenarch
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· Score: 1
InvokeDynamic is a pretty awesome new feature in JDK7 and will likely be tranformative for dyanmic languages on the JVM. For my mustache.java templating solution it increased performance on an integration benchmark by 25%.
Re:invokedynamic benchmarks?
by
owlstead
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· Score: 1
Initially the performance impact will be none since the languages need to actually use the construct and then optimize it before it becomes a factor. But if I understood correctly during the Java 7 launch I visited in Utrecht, NLD, it will be a lot easier and probably quite a bit faster for the dynamic languages out there. But don't take my word for it, the slides of the launch should be easy to find and they contain a whole section on the subject.
Re:invokedynamic benchmarks?
by
RegularFry
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· Score: 1
JRuby master already has invokedynamic support; it's apparently about 40% faster on Java7 than on Java6.
-- Reality is the ultimate Rorschach.
If anyone's interested in what's new in Java 7
by
euroq
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· Score: 2
-- Just because the U.S. is a republic does not mean it is not a democracy. Democracy/republic are not mutually exclusive.
Re:Java 7 not supported under VMware or MS Hypervi
by
slack_justyb
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· Score: 2
Well many in my circle have noted that an immediate roll out of Java7 is not warranted at this time, in fact discouraged. The update 26 of 6 is good enough for most customers now and Java7 should be used in small installations and test beds.
Not dissing what you have here, VMWare support is a biggie in my book, but this is the x.0 release. Maybe we should give Oracle the benefit of the doubt (OMG I'm really saying this?) and wait for them to provide the support later.
switch statements can now use strings (more efficient than if/else chain)
some new concurrency features (fork/join) to better handle multiprocessor setups
try with resources (so you don't always have to set a finally block to make sure your i/o object gets closed)
Re:Some of the changes
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Ooooh, I love that try with resources. The first time I saw this was in C# (I think it's called Disposable there, I haven't coded in C# in a few years). It's a great feature to prevent resource leaks and it just looks nice.
It's called "using" in C#, IDisposable is the name of the corresponding interface.
It's too bad that they had to come up with a new interface for this, though. Closeable was already there, but it was in java.io, and they needed something in java.lang. Well, at least they support types which already implement Closeable.
Re:Some of the changes
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Multiprocessors? forgive my ignorance, but anytime I have seen java running it has been only one java vm instance there, with whatever amount of threads mapped internally. So the actual hardware uses only one processor at a time.
How do you get java to do actual concurrent work?
Did you ever imagine?
by
voss
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· Score: 3, Insightful
There would be someone out there that would make Bill Gates seem like a nice guy.
Re:Did you ever imagine?
by
KillaBeave
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· Score: 1
I'm no M$ fanboi, but Bill Gates did give away most of his fortune and is trying to cure malaria and what not. Even if his business practices were a bit scummy that's gotta earn him some nice guy points!
Larry Ellison would be more likely to use his fortune to invest in a pharmaceutical company that makes malaria medicine and then start a bunch of mosquito farms...
Re:Did you ever imagine?
by
mswhippingboy
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· Score: 1
I'm no M$ fanboi, but Bill Gates did give away most of his fortune and is trying to cure malaria and what not. Even if his business practices were a bit scummy that's gotta earn him some nice guy points!
Larry Ellison would be more likely to use his fortune to invest in a pharmaceutical company that makes malaria medicine and then start a bunch of mosquito farms...
Gave away most of his fortune? What? In 2010 he was the richest man in the world, for the 17th straight year!. So far in 2011, he's only the 2nd richest, coming in behind Carlos Silm. While I applaud and encourage his philanthropy, let's not get carried away. I once read that if you start from a point in time back in 1975 (when MS was founded), on average he's been making $300/second ever since. This means that if he sees a $1000 bill lying on the floor, it's not worth his time to pick it up!
Having said that however, I do agree that Larry raises the bar for greedy rich bastard to a whole new level.
-- Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
List of features in Java 7
by
Necroman
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· Score: 4, Informative
Oracle has a detailed list of the additions in Java 7. OpenJDK has relatively the same information listed in a different way.
While it took forever to get JDK7 out the door, it's finally out and they can work toward JDK8, which is currently scheduled for release a year from now. The Oracle takeover is said and done and they are able to keep pushing new features into the language now. For all of us that use Java daily, this is a nice change.
I recommend looking over the feature list if you are a java dev. There are some really nice changes to make your day-to-day code just a little easier.
-- Its not what it is, its something else.
Re:List of features in Java 7
by
CrashNBrn
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· Score: 1
Groovy is what makes writing Java code easier. Groovy...
is an agile and dynamic language for the Java Virtual Machine
builds upon the strengths of Java but has additional power features inspired by languages like Python, Ruby and Smalltalk
makes modern programming features available to Java developers with almost-zero learning curve
supports Domain-Specific Languages and other compact syntax so your code becomes easy to read and maintain
makes writing shell and build scripts easy with its powerful processing primitives, OO abilities and an Ant DSL
increases developer productivity by reducing scaffolding code when developing web, GUI, database or console applications
simplifies testing by supporting unit testing and mocking out-of-the-box
seamlessly integrates with all existing Java classes and libraries
compiles straight to Java bytecode so you can use it anywhere you can use Java
Re:List of features in Java 7
by
maraist
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· Score: 1
Haha, only if you control the runtime.. You're only recently reliably able to compile against 1.5 and publish centrally. I STILL see tons of dual deployed open-source projects.. X and X-j5. Let alone compiled against java6 - why risk it? Again, unless you control the runtime.
Going through the release notes, there really are a ton of neat and cool features going into the language. I hope that Eclipse will be ready for me to start playing around with some of the ones that are more IDE centric are supported!
-- Bye!
Re:Java 7 not supported under VMware or MS Hypervi
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
That's kind of funny. Some of the vSphere apps are written in Java and they support running those things in VMs...
Oracle Malware Installer V1.7.0
by
Deathlizard
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· Score: 1
Not to take this thread off course a little, but malware is the #1 reason we're stripping Java off of our systems this year.
From what I can tell, Java 1.7 is no different then 1.6 when it comes to updating. It still doesn't have an option to automatically install updates without prompting. And since nobody ever clicks on the taskbar icon to update Java and are usually 2-5 updates behind, Malware authors have a field day infecting systems with Java left and right.
Re:Oracle Malware Installer V1.7.0
by
icebraining
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· Score: 1
Can't you push updates to the machines using centralized administration tools? (I assume you're not using Linux, or else you wouldn't need Sun's updater).
Re:Oracle Malware Installer V1.7.0
by
smash
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· Score: 1
More to the point - I'm currently in 2 minds regarding DISABLING updates to our corporate desktops for Java. We have 2 content filtering firewalls to block exploits, and the amount of legacy shit we have that are only supported on specific versions of the JVM. Now it's in oracle's hands my confidence in backwards compatibility with old code is rapidly diminishing...
-- I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Re:Oracle Malware Installer V1.7.0
by
domatic
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· Score: 1
You can but there is a very serious gotcha. The first time the newly installed version runs, it pops ups a EULA page. And I could find no way to surpress that.
If the J. Random Enduser doesn't click agree at that point then the install is screwed until an admin uninstalls and reinstalls Java on that machine. It completely messes us up on training users not to click things if they don't know what they are.
What are the alternatives?
by
Paul+Fernhout
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· Score: 3, Interesting
"Superior lightweight alternatives are being embraced except for those companies with time and money to burn."
Please list them with pros and cons.
BTW, Java was a stupid idea (VisualWorks Smalltalk was better then and might still be), but after fifteen years or so of suffering, there is a lot of good stuff about the Java platform IMHO, both code libraries and including the use of the JVM for other languages. Android is based around a version of Java. Everything has its problems. Java could use a lot more attention on the desktop, and I prefer a message passing model over a function calling model myself. Too bad Java has not been free-as-in-freedom from the start or it would have gone much further.
Anyway, I'd be curious what you thought the alternatives were.
-- A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Re:What are the alternatives?
by
rubycodez
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· Score: 2
hours of typing for pros and cons, but I'll agree the JVM can be all right for running other languages with slimmer libraries.
I think it is overdue...
by
DemonGenius
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· Score: 1
... for schools to switch from using Java as a teaching language to something like Python. Years out of school and I can't think of any practical reason to use Java other than to run programs (like SmartGit, my only use for Java ATM) built with it. For everything that Java does, there is a better alternative under a more functional language.
switch from using Java as a teaching language to something like Python
I think it helps very much to have a statically typed language instead of a dynamically typed language used in teaching (regardless of Python vs. Java). Much better feedback for the student in figuring out why things work and don't work, enforcing designs, and lots more than I won't bother to enumerate.
For everything that Java does, there is a better alternative under a more functional language.
Care to back that up?
-- Just because the U.S. is a republic does not mean it is not a democracy. Democracy/republic are not mutually exclusive.
Re:I think it is overdue...
by
DemonGenius
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· Score: 1
I think it helps very much to have a statically typed language instead of a dynamically typed language used in teaching (regardless of Python vs. Java). Much better feedback for the student in figuring out why things work and don't work, enforcing designs, and lots more than I won't bother to enumerate.
In the words of a great dude, "That's just, like, your opinion, man". Seriously, many people have learned programming on a dynamically typed language, myself included. Maybe statically typed languages are what you're most comfortable with and therefore you conclude that it's better for teaching. However, dynamically typed languages allow for more creativity in solving problems, something that students don't get a true taste for in statically typed languages with more stringent rules. This debate can go on ad nauseum and is pointless. That being said, I was mostly referring to the licenses associated with programming languages and you can easily replace Python in my above comment with any other language not owned by a sue-happy corporation. I guess the context wasn't clear, mea culpa.
Care to back that up?
Gladly! Java has failed to penetrate in most applications and is more or less a dead language:
PHP > JSP
SOAP (implementable in several languages, incl. Java) > Java RMI
QT > Swing
HTML 5 > Flash > Java Applets (former not really languages, but easily replaces Java nonetheless)
For desktop applications, C and Python do the job much better and don't depend on clunky runtime environments. If you're in Windows,.NET C# does everything that Java does and more, while using native UI instead of Swing.
BTW, if you're going to harp on about teachable languages, then students might as well be learning Pascal in university since Java is pretty much approaching that level of real world relevance, which is pretty close to zero.
I think you are being a bit too defensive. Being creative to solve a problem is great, but being creative has nothing to do with learning the basics. I don't believe that creativity matters when learning how to implement a linked list, writing a binary search, OOP concepts, and other CS topics, any more than I think that creativity has to do with learning how to factor polynomials. Creativity is absolutely a great attribute in any field, including software development, but I was referring to learning. If it matters, I was a TA in CS classes which used many languages, including pseudo-code, LISP, SmallTalk, and Java.
I would have taken your examples more seriously if you hadn't said Java has no real world relevance and is a dead language. I take it from your examples that you are a web developer. Java is the absolute top language today. It is used in enterprise applications, server applications, and Android mobile applications, to name a few examples. It certainly won't be that way forever, and I have no idea how long it will be this way, but it is the most used language today. Google it. (here's the first hit from my google search: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html ) And as far as runtime environments go, that is a problem that all teaching environment languages suffer from. Even JavaScript can function differently on different browsers.
P.S. I don't think Java is the best language, the end-all language, etc. And yes, this is all opinion in the way of how to best teach programming and computer science concepts, but it is not an opinion when stating that Java is or isn't a dead language; factually it isn't.
-- Just because the U.S. is a republic does not mean it is not a democracy. Democracy/republic are not mutually exclusive.
Re:I think it is overdue...
by
DemonGenius
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· Score: 1
I think you are being a bit too defensive.
Not really, just replying to a comment. Or are all/. users defensive?
Being creative to solve a problem is great, but being creative has nothing to do with learning the basics. I don't believe that creativity matters when learning how to implement a linked list, writing a binary search, OOP concepts, and other CS topics, any more than I think that creativity has to do with learning how to factor polynomials. Creativity is absolutely a great attribute in any field, including software development, but I was referring to learning.
Problem solving is the cornerstone of Comp. Sci. and that requires creative thinking and coming up with different ways to do something. Just learning what stuff is, like integers or linked lists, isn't enough. OOP is definitely something that requires creative thinking to be able to properly design a program. Being creative and learning goes hand in hand in Comp. Sci., just don't mistake it with the "creative writing" sort of creative because that's different.
I take it from your examples that you are a web developer.
So what? You can talk to any programmer, call them a web developer and half the time you would be right. But you would be mistaken in thinking that's all I do if that's what you're implying. However, I need to pay the bills, so that's what my profession is and I love it! It's not like web developers do anything much different than what's on the desktop, most of the code we write runs on the server anyway, but we just happen to be skilled in client side technologies as well. I take it from your comment that your not a web developer? I could be wrong.
Java is the absolute top language today. It is used in enterprise applications, server applications, and Android mobile applications, to name a few examples. It certainly won't be that way forever, and I have no idea how long it will be this way, but it is the most used language today. Google it. (here's the first hit from my google search: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html ) And as far as runtime environments go, that is a problem that all teaching environment languages suffer from. Even JavaScript can function differently on different browsers.
P.S. I don't think Java is the best language, the end-all language, etc. And yes, this is all opinion in the way of how to best teach programming and computer science concepts, but it is not an opinion when stating that Java is or isn't a dead language; factually it isn't.
A little hyperbole spices up a comment. A language never really "dies", but it does lose relevance over time to the point where it might as well be dead to many developers. COBOL is still around, mostly because it would be too expensive and risky to roll over to something else, and there's a similar case with Java. 10 years ago, I wouldn't be saying these things about Java at all and it would have been my first choice for any project. However, times change and newer languages are on the rise to take Java's place. Java's popularity on that list of yours is just a residual effect of its past industry penetration, same as with C (disclaimer: C is still very, very relevant, and one of my absolute favorite languages). There will still be plenty of jobs for these languages as systems currently using them will need to be maintained for some time. Java is factually dead to me and many others since, like me, many can largely ignore it and not suffer from it. Sure, Java is on Android, a modified version of it at least, but the platform has enough of it's own issues (e.g. fragmentation) that it's struggling to keep up with iOS and Objective C (yes, Objective C is #6 and increasing on that list of yours even though it's only relevance is on Apple hardware).
Problem solving is the cornerstone of Comp. Sci. and that requires creative thinking and coming up with different ways to do something. Just learning what stuff is, like integers or linked lists, isn't enough. OOP is definitely something that requires creative thinking to be able to properly design a program. Being creative and learning goes hand in hand in Comp. Sci., just don't mistake it with the "creative writing" sort of creative because that's different.
80-90% of Comp. Sci. college material does not require creative thinking, the same as with math. There is generally a "right way" to solve most problems. And remember, I'm specifically referring to learning CS and not something else like web design: linked lists, graph traversal, Big-O/computational mathematics, language theory, algorithms and other data structures, computer/processor architecture, etc. Don't mistake what I'm getting at. Yes, creativity is great (actually I would prefer to say "critical thinking" is great). But as someone who has experience in teaching material to various students, most of whom weren't CS majors, using pseudo-code and dynamically typed languages caused problems with students that were solved once we started using a statically typed language.
If you'd like to start using dynamically typed languages, go for it. I'm not saying they suck. What I'm saying is that I believe, and I have experience to back it up such an opinion, that dynamically typed languages are worse than statically typed languages for teaching CS concepts, especially to beginners.
I take it from your examples that you are a web developer.
So what?
Well, because you thought that people might as well teach Pascal as Java, as your experience as a web developer thought they were equally as relevant. Java is used a lot more than you're admitting, even though it is dying in certain areas (such as a language that would be used in many websites and web applications).
-- Just because the U.S. is a republic does not mean it is not a democracy. Democracy/republic are not mutually exclusive.
All you people who hate Oracle...
by
Ossifer
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· Score: 2
... are Johnny-come-latelies. My company got sued by Oracle in 1984.
Re:Java 7 not supported under VMware or MS Hypervi
by
shutdown+-p+now
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· Score: 1
I actually went and read the blog post, and it has the following comment now:
Hi – The supported platforms page was mistakenly created using a standard Oracle template which is not applicable to Java. It will be updated to clarify that we support Java explicitly on certified platforms (eg those called out in the page) and on other platforms as long as we don’t run in to platform specific issues. In that case (eg, if VMware is broken) you will have to go to the platform vendor for troubleshooting and a fix.
Henrik Stahl Sr. Director, Product Management Java Platform Group Oracle
Lose the Yahoo toolbar installation on your installer. It's unprofessional and it makes you look desperate. It makes you look like you're selling screen savers or clipart. In the 90's. So stop it.
Minecraft performance
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Yes yes yes, your enterprise app server performance and missing lambda expressions in Java 7 are all very interesting, but the really important question is... does the new version improve performance for Minecraft?!
It's in a jar, and this seems to work at slightly under 200 signs/second:
final ECGenParameterSpec spec = new ECGenParameterSpec("secp521r1");
final KeyPairGenerator gen = KeyPairGenerator.getInstance("EC");
gen.initialize(spec);
final KeyPair pair = gen.generateKeyPair();
Signature sig = Signature.getInstance("SHA512withECDSA");
EC 521 bit security with SHA2 512 bit - that should appease securtity profs, I certainly do. Typed it in without any runtime exception, so it is bouncy castle compatible. So more performance for those able to use ECC based TLS certificates.
Note: no brainpool (European spec) ECC parameters or SHA224 support, too bad:(
Oh, and this is of course nice, although catching GeneralSecurityException might be ok as well:
As a developer i feel the urge to run to develop on java 7, after all the shit oracle pulled over open source and java !!
.............
not...
i really dont get it. who can be moronic enough to attempt to herd/exploit developers for their own profit, betray them, and then go about trying to cater to them ?
do they think it would be possible to become a developer with all its technical skill requirements, so that we would be as dumb enough as to be fooled by such trickery and scheming ?
Uhmm, how is google V8 not open source? According to the googlecode website, V8 is licensed under the 'new bsd license', which puts it as *MORE* open than spidermonkey.But that's getting into the GPL vs BSD debate, and my point is more that it is licensed under what is considered an open source license.
Hahahhaa. Java indeed.
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Almost immediately, Apache staff started advising that nobody use Java 7 GA, because it's full of well known, months old, patch-available compiler defects. Granted, they only affect obscure things like (cough) for loops, but nobody uses those, right?
Java 7 is well known to produce defective binaries for correct code of real world applications, including Lucene, Solr and other Apache projects.
Slashdot Mirror
And the majority of software folk go "meh"
Will they sue me if I install it?
I am sure Google is watching this front carefully. I mean, it (Google), will weave any [new] developments in this release into Dalvik as well, while reminding us that "Dalvik is not Java."
* 97% of enterprise desktops run Java
* 1 billion Java downloads each year
* 9 million developers worldwide
* #1 programming language (TIOBE Programming Community Index)
* More than 3 billion devices are powered by Java technology
They forgot one:
* #1 programming language used in judicial patent cases
Project lambda was arguably the most important planned addition to the JDK7, but apparently got dropped in the last few months and pushed back to JDK8. To be honest Project Coin, Fork/Join, and InvokeDynamic are useful, but not much of a big deal as Project Lambda.
I currently have Version 6 Update 26 installed on all my home computers. Will that be the final release of the version 6 branch? I hate using x.0 releases until they work out any kinks or bugs, but I have also been bitten by having an old Java version installed (it is the only vector that has successfully installed malware on my computers).
Seriously folks, if you really don't need it, uninstall it.
Never email donotemail@WeAreSpammers.com
You don't make a good language by smashing a bunch of "projects" together. If you do that, you end up with C++.
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
that's right, fuck you
Dear Oracle,
Please turn off the default installation of the Yahoo Toolbar. I don't know why you have it checked on, but I am happy to decide for MYSELF what I Want to install on my machine.
and not even supported under Oracle's current Type-1 Hypervisor Oracle VM 2.2
http://jdk7.java.net/JDK7SupportedSystemConfigurations.html - note this:
All supported platforms are supported when virtualized in a supported hypervisor
Supported hypervisors are: Oracle VM 3.x, VirtualBox 3.x, 4.x, Solaris Containers and Solaris LDOMs. Except where noted.
VMWare and Microsoft Hypervisor NOT supported
I wrote up a blog article on this and the repercussions for paying Oracle customers of things like Oracle E-Business Suite that utilize Java
http://weinshenker.net/blog/2011/07/28/oracle-playing-fair-vmware/
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/eol-135779.html
Java 6 will be updated through July 2012
(After which it will still be updated, but on a paid-only basis.)
Actually, probably longer if you have a proprietary Unix OS such as Mac OS X, AIX or HP-UX where the OS vendor ships patches. The OS vendors usually find it easier to just issue patches for the old version rather than adding support for a new one.
If someone has installed this on Ubuntu, could you post your experiences? Also, anything in the repos yet?
apt-get command lines, please.
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
Keep an eye on Pypy (python virtual machine with just-in-time compiler).
Dynamic, fast (and getting faster), nice and highly flexible syntax. Programming in python is pure fun, not pain.
They did not announce it. They RELEASED it!
I'm curious how much of an impact the new 'invokedynamic' has - specifically on Ruby and Python - any good performance analysis out there?
sic transit gloria mundi
This page has all the details: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/jdk7-relnotes-418459.html
Just because the U.S. is a republic does not mean it is not a democracy. Democracy/republic are not mutually exclusive.
Well many in my circle have noted that an immediate roll out of Java7 is not warranted at this time, in fact discouraged. The update 26 of 6 is good enough for most customers now and Java7 should be used in small installations and test beds.
Not dissing what you have here, VMWare support is a biggie in my book, but this is the x.0 release. Maybe we should give Oracle the benefit of the doubt (OMG I'm really saying this?) and wait for them to provide the support later.
There would be someone out there that would make Bill Gates seem like a nice guy.
Oracle has a detailed list of the additions in Java 7. OpenJDK has relatively the same information listed in a different way.
While it took forever to get JDK7 out the door, it's finally out and they can work toward JDK8, which is currently scheduled for release a year from now. The Oracle takeover is said and done and they are able to keep pushing new features into the language now. For all of us that use Java daily, this is a nice change.
I recommend looking over the feature list if you are a java dev. There are some really nice changes to make your day-to-day code just a little easier.
Its not what it is, its something else.
Going through the release notes, there really are a ton of neat and cool features going into the language. I hope that Eclipse will be ready for me to start playing around with some of the ones that are more IDE centric are supported!
Bye!
That's kind of funny. Some of the vSphere apps are written in Java and they support running those things in VMs...
Not to take this thread off course a little, but malware is the #1 reason we're stripping Java off of our systems this year.
From what I can tell, Java 1.7 is no different then 1.6 when it comes to updating. It still doesn't have an option to automatically install updates without prompting. And since nobody ever clicks on the taskbar icon to update Java and are usually 2-5 updates behind, Malware authors have a field day infecting systems with Java left and right.
If they need Java they can install it.
In Soviet Russia, Trojan exploits YOU!
"Superior lightweight alternatives are being embraced except for those companies with time and money to burn."
Please list them with pros and cons.
BTW, Java was a stupid idea (VisualWorks Smalltalk was better then and might still be), but after fifteen years or so of suffering, there is a lot of good stuff about the Java platform IMHO, both code libraries and including the use of the JVM for other languages. Android is based around a version of Java. Everything has its problems. Java could use a lot more attention on the desktop, and I prefer a message passing model over a function calling model myself. Too bad Java has not been free-as-in-freedom from the start or it would have gone much further.
Anyway, I'd be curious what you thought the alternatives were.
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Didn't oracle say they were taking over releases of Java on the mac?
Duke Nukem Forever, Debian/hurd install CDs, Linux 3.0 and now Java 7. I'm beginning to think 2012 is really the end of the world...
... for schools to switch from using Java as a teaching language to something like Python. Years out of school and I can't think of any practical reason to use Java other than to run programs (like SmartGit, my only use for Java ATM) built with it. For everything that Java does, there is a better alternative under a more functional language.
... are Johnny-come-latelies. My company got sued by Oracle in 1984.
I actually went and read the blog post, and it has the following comment now:
Hi – The supported platforms page was mistakenly created using a standard Oracle template which is not applicable to Java. It will be updated to clarify that we support Java explicitly on certified platforms (eg those called out in the page) and on other platforms as long as we don’t run in to platform specific issues. In that case (eg, if VMware is broken) you will have to go to the platform vendor for troubleshooting and a fix.
Henrik Stahl
Sr. Director, Product Management
Java Platform Group
Oracle
so relax.
Lose the Yahoo toolbar installation on your installer. It's unprofessional and it makes you look desperate. It makes you look like you're selling screen savers or clipart. In the 90's. So stop it.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Yes yes yes, your enterprise app server performance and missing lambda expressions in Java 7 are all very interesting, but the really important question is... does the new version improve performance for Minecraft?!
Is it re-write everywhere yet?
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
It's in a jar, and this seems to work at slightly under 200 signs/second:
final ECGenParameterSpec spec = new ECGenParameterSpec("secp521r1");
final KeyPairGenerator gen = KeyPairGenerator.getInstance("EC");
gen.initialize(spec);
final KeyPair pair = gen.generateKeyPair();
Signature sig = Signature.getInstance("SHA512withECDSA");
EC 521 bit security with SHA2 512 bit - that should appease securtity profs, I certainly do. Typed it in without any runtime exception, so it is bouncy castle compatible. So more performance for those able to use ECC based TLS certificates.
Note: no brainpool (European spec) ECC parameters or SHA224 support, too bad :(
Oh, and this is of course nice, although catching GeneralSecurityException might be ok as well:
} catch (final NoSuchAlgorithmException | InvalidAlgorithmParameterException | InvalidKeyException e) {
} catch (final SignatureException e) {
Apple handed off responsibility for Java on Mac OS X to Oracle last year.
Java SE 7 is released by Oracle and what platform is not included?
That's right, there's no Mac OS X version!
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/config-417990.html
As a developer i feel the urge to run to develop on java 7, after all the shit oracle pulled over open source and java !!
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not
i really dont get it. who can be moronic enough to attempt to herd/exploit developers for their own profit, betray them, and then go about trying to cater to them ?
do they think it would be possible to become a developer with all its technical skill requirements, so that we would be as dumb enough as to be fooled by such trickery and scheming ?
go shove your java 7 up your ass.
Read radical news here
Uhmm, how is google V8 not open source? According to the googlecode website, V8 is licensed under the 'new bsd license', which puts it as *MORE* open than spidermonkey.But that's getting into the GPL vs BSD debate, and my point is more that it is licensed under what is considered an open source license.
Almost immediately, Apache staff started advising that nobody use Java 7 GA, because it's full of well known, months old, patch-available compiler defects. Granted, they only affect obscure things like (cough) for loops, but nobody uses those, right?
Java 7 is well known to produce defective binaries for correct code of real world applications, including Lucene, Solr and other Apache projects.
Do not use.
http://www.lucidimagination.com/blog/2011/07/28/dont-use-java-7-for-anything/