SFPD Arrests Suspect In Airbnb Rental Trashing

theodp writes "Just days after it was reported that apartment sharing startup Airbnb had raised $112MM at a $1B+ valuation from investors that included Marc Andreessen and Jeff Bezos, Airbnb user EJ's blog entry on the ransacking of her apartment by Airbnb renters went viral, creating a PR nightmare that's turning into a war of words. CNET reports San Francisco police have confirmed that a 19-year-old woman has been arrested in the case, booked on possession of stolen property, methamphetamine, fraud charges, and an outstanding warrant."

Comments

Uh ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like what I would expect from sharing my apartment with random strangers.

Re:Uh ...

[GameboyRMH]

I can't see exactly how the parent was modded -1 because I haven't been able to see mod details for nearly a week, but the parent's post is Insightful.

Re:Uh ...

[timeOday]

On the other hand, my house was robbed earlier this year while I was on vacation, so the only apparent difference is this woman got some rent money :)

But seriously, unless your home is a prison, there is really nothing to stop people from coming in if that's what they want to do - other than the fear of getting caught, which is greater if you've made a reservation with airbnb.

Re:Uh ...

[Anonymous Coward]

ccard, laptop, ipod, passport, social security card.. GG her life has been sold moving to a new place ain't gonna fix this. Your correct why the hell would people do this?

It's the risk you take

[ledow]

What I can't believe is not that someone would trash an apartment "just because", but that someone else wouldn't think it was possible. Have they seriously been living in cloud-cuckoo-land?

My ex-mother-in-law rented out her house to complete strangers for six months while she was on the other side of the planet. We all said she was incredibly stupid to do such a thing - not least because in that amount of time you could do ANYTHING, i.e. discover house deeds and sell the house to someone else, sublet it out to complete strangers (it was in the middle of a tourist area and used as a guest house when they were home) and there was no-one to check on what happened (she lived hundreds of miles away from where we did).

Although everything went fine, why on earth would you consider doing such a thing, especially in somewhere that's still housing your clothes, a safe with your personal documents, personal possessions, etc.? You've got to be really stupid or incredibly naive.

I bet your normal house insurance doesn't cover such events. I bet airbnb's insurance doesn't cover such events. I bet its difficult to even find rental insurance that covers you when you have no knowledge of who's renting from you.

It's a horrible thing to happen, and it *shouldn't* happen, but equally if I leave my car out in the road with a "Borrow my car for only £10 an hour" scheme where I never see who borrows my car, it's OBVIOUS that the chances are I will never see my car again or, if I do see it, I won't want to. And a car is a replaceable thing. It's not a house. It doesn't contain safes with all my identification documents (what a stupid idea to leave those, even in a safe, in a house you're renting out).

Seriously, it's a horrendous thing to have happen to you but, more seriously, you *DIDN'T* see it coming?

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymous Coward]

"Have they seriously been living in cloud-cuckoo-land?"

They live in San Francisco. 'Nuff said.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymous Coward]

What I can't believe is not that someone would trash an apartment "just because", but that someone else wouldn't think it was possible. Have they seriously been living in cloud-cuckoo-land?

Yes. It's like you should never take a hitchhiker along, since everyone knows there are psychopaths amongst them that will rape and kill you. Or let a stranger make a phone call using your phone, since they can just as well may run off with it. Or simply walk outside. Do you know how many people get pick-pocketed, mugged, kidnapped, run over by cars, etc every day?

The risk of being involved in a car accident is probably even much higher than getting robbed the way this person was (even if you only look at people using that service). But I guess cuckoo-you nevertheless walks, rides or drives on/by the street pretty much every day.

Re:It's the risk you take

[AncientPC]

Ideally centralizing payment and identity verification to a 3rd party is a step up from Craigslist where you have to do it all yourself. EJ stated that AirBNB does not give out contact information until after someone's rented the place, preventing screening applicants.

However from the terms (keep in mind they may have changed it since EJ's case):

"1.2 Identity Verification. We make no attempt to confirm, and do not confirm, any user's purported identity. You are responsible for determining the identity and suitability of others who you may contact by means of this Site. We do not endorse any persons who use or register for our Services, whether as guests or hosts. We do not investigate any user's reputation, conduct, morality, criminal background, or verify the information that any user submits to the Site. We encourage you to communicate directly with potential hosts and guests through the tools available on the Site and to review your hosts’ and guests’ profile pages for feedback from other users.

13.1 IF YOU USE OUR SERVICES, YOU DO SO AT YOUR SOLE RISK. YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT Airbnb DOES NOT CHECK ANY GUEST, HOST, OR OTHER USER’S BACKGROUND OR RECORD. Airbnb IS A REPUTATION-BASED SYSTEM. TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OTHER USER’S COMMENTS AND THIRD-PARTY REFERRALS ON HOSTS AND GUESTS. USE COMMON SENSE. BE AWARE AND BE SAFE. OUR SERVICES ARE PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS. WE EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM, AND YOU WAIVE, ALL WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NON-INFRINGEMENT.

14.1 WE SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR DAMAGES OF ANY KIND (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ANY DIRECT, INCIDENTAL, GENERAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, EXEMPLARY OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES) EVEN IF WE HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES, ARISING FROM OR RELATING TO: (A) THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE OUR SERVICES; (B) HARM OR DAMAGE TO YOUR PROPERTY AS A RESULT OF USING OUR SERVICES; (C) DISCLOSURE OF, UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR CONTENT; (D) ANY HARM TO YOU CAUSED IN WHOLE OR PART BY A THIRD PARTY, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANOTHER USER OF THE SERVICES; (E) STATEMENTS, CONDUCT OR OMISSIONS OF ANY GUEST, HOST, OR OTHER THIRD PARTIES ON OUR SERVICES; OR (F) YOUR OR ANYONE ELSE'S CONDUCT OR ACTS IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OF THE SERVICES, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION FROM INTERACTIONS WITH OTHER USERS OF OUR SERVICES OR PERSONS INTRODUCED TO YOU BY OUR SERVICES, WHETHER ON-LINE OR OFF-LINE."

In essence, I find it hard to understand what added value AirBNB provides over either Craigslist (pay) or Couch Surfing (free, reputation-based).

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymus]

Picking up a hitchhiker or letting someone use your cell phone is way different than renting out your apartment to someone for a few months. Anyone who has known or been a landlord can probably tell you stories for hours about the troubles they've had.

When people move in somewhere, they treat it like it's completely theirs to do with as they please. Even worse, a lot of people treat it like they own it but they know they'll lose it in a few months anyway, so they have no problem writing on the walls, letting food rot in the carpet, or water overflow in the bathroom.

Going by my experience/gut feeling (ie, completely pulling numbers out of my ass) I'd say your chance of getting killed by a hitchhiker is about 0.00001%, your chance of having your phone stolen by someone using it is about 5%, and your chance of someone mistreating your apartment while renting it is about 20%. Also, when you have your phone stolen you're out maybe a few hundreds bucks, but when your apartment is trashed you're out tens of thousands.

Re:It's the risk you take

[martin-boundary]

You really need to learn some basic statistics before making silly comparisons. Yes, the probability of being in a random car accident is higher than randomly having your house ransacked, but that's beside the point. A car accident happens due to (bad) luck, while ransacking is a deliberate act. So conditionally on crossing the road, the probability of being run over is rather low (otherwise nobody would cross the road casually), whereas conditionally on giving complete strangers the keys to one's house, the probability that they'll damage or ransack it is pretty high.

Or put yet again differently, if you stand in the middle of the road at some random time of day, the drivers who see you aren't likely to deliberately run you over. There are some, but they're probably on some different road or in some other city on that particular day and time. If you advertise your house keys on some website, the people who will deliberately trash your place are reading the website and will likely contact you.

A website is like a mile wide road with hundreds of thousands of drivers who all see you standing on the road. One of them will run you over, deliberately.

Re:It's the risk you take

[WillDraven]

Also, when you have your phone stolen you're out maybe a few hundreds bucks, but when your apartment is trashed you're out tens of thousands.

That seems a bit high to me, especially if you do some of the repairs yourself. You could maybe end up paying that much if you left all of your nice furniture in the apartment you were renting, and replaced it with new equal value stuff after it was ruined, but in general fixing up a junked apartment should only cost you a few thousand tops I would think.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "trashed." if they punch a few holes in the walls, mess up the paint, and stain the carpets, the repairs shouldn't ruin you financially. If they tear out all the drywall, the wiring, the plumbing, the flooring, and appliances, leaving you with nothing but a room full of 2x4s holding up the ceiling, then yeah, you could end up paying tens of thousands. But I've never seen a place THAT trashed, and I work for a real estate company that specializes in selling foreclosed properties.

Re:It's the risk you take

[jovius]

1.2 Identity Verification. We make no attempt to confirm, and do not confirm, any user's purported identity. You are responsible for determining the identity and suitability of others who you may contact by means of this Site.

I wonder what's the rationale for not confirming any identification in the first place. Wouldn't it be beneficial for a service like this to build confidential relationships between the users (and the service)?

Re:It's the risk you take

[jimicus]

In essence, I find it hard to understand what added value AirBNB provides over either Craigslist (pay) or Couch Surfing (free, reputation-based).

They don't, so quite how they managed to get a valuation of $1 billion I have no idea. Are we looking at another dot-com boom?

Re:It's the risk you take

[geniice]

Cost mostly. Confirming identification takes time and money. It also annoys the customer who is having to go through the process. Worse still once you start down that line there is pressure to add more and more anti fraud measures which again costs money.

Re:It's the risk you take

[PopeScott]

I destroy the cabinets in the kitchen and we're up to $5000 for shitty cabinets I'll have to install myself. Tens of thousands is NOT unreasonable.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymous Coward]

You really need to learn some basic statistics before making silly comparisons. Yes, the probability of being in a random car accident is higher than randomly having your house ransacked, but that's beside the point. A car accident happens due to (bad) luck, while ransacking is a deliberate act.

So is pickpocketing and mugging.

So conditionally on crossing the road, the probability of being run over is rather low (otherwise nobody would cross the road casually), whereas conditionally on giving complete strangers the keys to one's house, the probability that they'll damage or ransack it is pretty high.

Apparently not, otherwise there would have been more complaints than just the one until now. Or are you arguing that most other people who used that website before has been immensely lucky against all odds? Additionally, there are obviously also conditions involved here (if nothing else, it's registering on that website, although that by itself most likely won't filter out that many people with bad intentions).

Re:It's the risk you take

[Chris Mattern]

I suspect it's more liability than cost. Once you start checking identities and past history, you can get sued for missing stuff.

Re:It's the risk you take

[geniice]

Eh you can insure against that so again it boils down to cost. But yes there are a whole bunch of reasons why that gets messy fast.

Re:It's the risk you take

[vlm]

In essence, I find it hard to understand what added value AirBNB provides over either Craigslist (pay) or Couch Surfing (free, reputation-based).

Whats their patent portfolio look like? Do they have a patent on something obvious and profitable like "renting a room using an iphone" that is probably worth a billion bucks if you already own a complementary property, perhaps a world wide hotel chain. On the other hand if you don't own a world wide hotel chain then the only way to demonstrate your patent is a "LOL wut?" business model like this.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I am already short on the stock... So I am waiting for the market to open...

Okay, This is the first I heard of AirBNB but if I had heard of it before.....

Re:It's the risk you take

[doug141]

My ex-mother-in-law rented out her house to complete strangers for six months while she was on the other side of the planet.... Although everything went fine

Reminds me of a story... Once I had the most vivid and shocking dream that my grandmother had been in a car accident. The phone woke me from that dream in the middle of the night. It was a wrong number.

Re:It's the risk you take

[geniice]

Well on paper (and that's where the valuation is) they have first mover advantage (well sort of, somewhat related home exchange vacations have been around for a long time) in what could be the next big area of the Hospitality industry. With the total value of the hospitality industry and their currently very low overheads they would only have to capture a small percentage of the hospitality industry to be worth that.

Re:It's the risk you take

[LordNimon]

Although everything went fine

In other words, your ex-mother-in-law proved you wrong.

You really should have come up with a better example.

Re:It's the risk you take

[vlm]

Seriously, it's a horrendous thing to have happen to you but, more seriously, you *DIDN'T* see it coming?

Maybe she did, we'll never know unless she confesses... One story I heard, which as far as I know has absolutely nothing directly to do with this case:

1) House needs substantial structural water damage / mold repairs after hurricane Andrew (or whichever one it was)

2) Owner verifies home insurance has no coverage for storm damage, but full coverage for criminal vandalism. (lightbulb turns on over owners head .. lets see how many /.ers already know how this is gonna turn out...) Owner somehow overlooks other section of insurance contract explaining coverage is void if property is rented, owner must live onsite; no rental contract allowed; etc.

3) Owner rents to local 1%er motorcycle gang. In a surprising turn of events, house is now condemned.

4) Owners statement to insurance co "I thought those hoodlums were church missionaries, I'm such a victim, that means you have to like me..."

5) Insurance co uses big red "denied" stamp.

6) Owner freaks out, OMG what am I gonna do ... happens to glance at TV news sleazecast ... another lightbulb appears ...

7) Local newspaper and "fox news on your side" breathless TV coverage about the horrible victimization of the owner vs the rich insurance company blah blah blah. "Today's news brought to you by advertisements from the insurance co's competitors..."

Don't remember how that one turned out. A more modern retelling would be "Katrina" instead of "Andrew", or maybe upside down post-housing bubble mortgage instead of hurricane, or maybe "airbnb" instead of "1%er motorcycle gang", etc. Its an insightful story.

I'm just saying, only the most lilly white bread type can be honestly completely confused... Follow the money...

Re:It's the risk you take

[Kenneth Stephen]

She didn't _prove_ him wrong. You can walk across a busy highway, and by some miracle escape being hit by a vehicle. That doesn't prove that everyone who told you that you are doing something stupid was wrong.

Re:It's the risk you take

[drinkypoo]

They don't, so quite how they managed to get a valuation of $1 billion I have no idea. Are we looking at another dot-com boom?

Yes. It is reputed to mostly be centered around Silicon Valley again, too. Suckers.

Re:It's the risk you take

[maroonhat]

someone is taking you for a ride with those cabinets, I can get you nice cabinets, installed for that price...

Re:It's the risk you take

[martin-boundary]

So is pickpocketing and mugging.

Yes, which is why every city has "bad" areas where the chance of being mugged is higher.

Apparently not, otherwise there would have been more complaints than just the one until now. Or are you arguing that most other people who used that website before has been immensely lucky against all odds?

That's a good point, but it only applies in a stationary situation. If a website has been around a long time and has a stable population, then yes, a steady number of complaints per time period would be expected. However those assumptions fail in a number of cases.

1) For a growing website, the user population is small at first so the chance of an incident is best discounted until a critical mass (ie the site becomes sufficiently popular and mainstream to attract enough bad guys).

2) As the rules of the website/service are changed over time, the behaviour and opportunities change. Also, the user population goes from an early adopter profile to average which can make a difference.

3) Not all incidents are equivalent. The reporting of incidents in the media follows record events, eg the first time a TV gets trashed it's interesting, but the second time it's not. So the second report would have to be a room getting trashed. Then the third report would be a whole house, etc. Many people might have never heard of the website until this newsreport, which would make it the "first" incident in their minds.

So I wouldn't expect a lot of house trashing reports in the past, rather they should likely occur in the future. However, that's if no new rules or tightening security arrangements are made by the startup to combat the likelihood.

Re:It's the risk you take

[jimicus]

they would only have to capture a small percentage of the hospitality industry to be worth that.

Every time I've seen that argument used, there's an unspoken bit which goes something along the lines of "therefore we don't need to understand our prospective customer - or even define them that closely (because we don't need many), our competition (who cares if they do get 98% of the market as long as we can get our 2%?) or the issues we are likely to face in bringing this product or service to fruition (with such fantastic numbers, so what if it works out a little harder? It won't significantly affect the figures)."

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymous Coward]

Typical greed sucking, low-life lawyer bullshit.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Eunuchswear]

Since temporary home renting schemes have existed for years you seem to be arguing gut feeling against reality.

This tells us more about you than about the subject under discussion.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Eunuchswear]

Yeah, but they hav low overheads because they provide (almost) no service.

Shit, no identity checks? No liability? No insurance?

Fuck 'em.

Re:It's the risk you take

[GameboyRMH]

Check this out, from TFA:

It was several months after moving in that I finally felt ready to try renting it out while I traveled. (I had rented out my apartment several times while living in New York, through Craigslist no less, and always with exceptional results). Now, I convinced myself that anyone would love and respect this lovely space as much as I did. It seemed silly to let a perfectly good apartment sit empty while I traveled, when there were so many visitors to San Francisco in need of a place to stay, who wanted to experience a city as I preferred to: in a local’s home, outside the tourist bubble of a hotel. Anyway I liked the idea of someone being there, looking after my thirsty houseplant, and of course the opportunity to earn some extra cash was more than appealing.

This woman is ultra-naive.

Re:It's the risk you take

[rolfwind]

My ex-mother-in-law rented out her house to complete strangers for six months while she was on the other side of the planet. We all said she was incredibly stupid to do such a thing - not least because in that amount of time you could do ANYTHING, i.e. discover house deeds and sell the house to someone else....Although everything went fine, why on earth would you consider doing such a thing, especially in somewhere that's still housing your clothes, a safe with your personal documents, personal possessions, etc.? You've got to be really stupid or incredibly naive.

Documents should go in a safety deposit box in the bank. It should not be in a flimsy "fire-proof" safe bought at walmart. It should not be in the very same house it pertains to.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Virtucon]

No, it's not hard to believe because it is human nature. I've had two homes trashed by people renting the place with oversight by a rental agency. I've had doors smashed, walls with holes in them and appliances trashed. I have court judgements against people that have long skipped into the ether and although I can keep those security and cleaning deposits I no longer have any interest in renting property to anybody. I even had one deadbeat during our court proceedings skip out on holding his rent in trust with the court. The judge just looked at them funny, yeah I won that case too but that and $3 will buy me a great cup of coffee. Ever wonder what it takes to get rid of 4 barrels of "unknown material" that were left on your property by a deadbeat renter? Just open your checkbook and find out.

People can be scumbags and while I don't throw all people who rent or lease property into the same category as the people who caused me grief, I can understand now why landlords always are suspicious of their tenants.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymus]

I guess so. In my own personal experience, literally 2 out of 4 of my renters have been absolutely horrible and caused damage only slightly below what they were paying in rent (when they felt like paying it at all). I also saw some of my neighbors places when I myself was renting an apartment, and have a relative whose primary income came from managing rental properties and heard a lot of stories.

Most temporary home renting schemes I've seen that actually -work- are either upper class places (summer homes and the like) or low-income borderline slums where it doesn't matter if damage is done.

Re:It's the risk you take

[__aagujc9792]

Cloud cuckoo land? Precisely right. I read her blog posting and some of the comments. Her cognitive community Believes In Karma. Somewhere amongst the four forces there lurks a cosmic accountant. OK, whatever. In my universe, reality is a bitch. It probably takes her and me to make a society. I think she's an idiot, she thinks I'm a brute. Oh well.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymus]

Yeah, tens of thousands is a stretch (depends on the place, nicer places seem less likely to be damaged in the first place) but $10k isn't out of the question at all, especially if you factor in that "doing the work yourself" isn't free unless you consider your time to be worthless.

Re:It's the risk you take

[spire3661]

Documents should be scanned and encrypted and uploaded to the cloud as well. ( in this case im using cloud a generic term for offsite backup storage medium.)

Re:It's the risk you take

[TheRaven64]

I can think of three explanations for this post:

1. Your standards are so high that you think oak cabinets with silver handles instead of platinum are shitty.
2. You're in McMurdo and the price includes shipping.
3. Someone saw you coming.

My first guess would be option 3, although with a name like Scott 2 seems plausible too...

Re:It's the risk you take

[Aquitaine]

That seems a bit high to me, especially if you do some of the repairs yourself.

Not at all. If you have even a couple valuable things in your apartment, much less valuable jewelry or electronics, you're looking at about $20k in renter's insurance (which is not very expensive).

If you have tens of thousands of dollars in cabinets, then you're a strange person. But tens of thousands of dollars in destructible property in your home isn't unusual at all.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't, so quite how they managed to get a valuation of $1 billion I have no idea. Are we looking at another dot-com boom?

Yes. It is reputed to mostly be centered around Silicon Valley again, too. Suckers.

Oh, Christ, if this went public I'd short it harder than smurfs in a cat-food factory. Billion dollar valuation of a stupid idea that begs for abuse centered around Silicon Valley and San Francisco? Please, God, if you do exist, please drive the people who came up with this shit into homelessness and wailing and gnashing of teeth, as a lesson to all the other fake-capitalist, half-assed con-men scum out there: CREATE REAL VALUE WITH YOUR COMPANY BY DOING SOMETHING WORTHWHILE, DON'T PRETEND YOUR VAPOR IS YOUR VALUATION AND DON'T ETERNALLY SUCK THE VC TEET.

Re:It's the risk you take

[whoever57]

"1.2 Identity Verification. We make no attempt to confirm, and do not confirm, any user's purported identity. You are responsible for determining the identity and suitability of others who you may contact by means of this Site

Since Airbnb does not allow exchange of personal information until after a contract is agreed, that clause seems to be particularly problematic.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymous Coward]

meth is a hell of a drug.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymous Coward]

Plausible deniability.

Re:It's the risk you take

[ShakaUVM]

>>if I leave my car out in the road with a "Borrow my car for only ã10 an hour" scheme where I never see who borrows my car, it's OBVIOUS that the chances are I will never see my car again

There's actually several companies that do this. (http://www.zipcar.com/)

Was probably where airbnb got their idea from, actually.

Re:It's the risk you take

[spasm]

Surrounded on three sides by water and one side by reality..

Re:It's the risk you take

[couchslug]

"The risk of being involved in a car accident is probably even much higher than getting robbed the way this person was"

Citation needed including a valid comparison of those activities. In none of the activities you use for comparison is the victim making a specific effort to CHOOSE extreme vulnerability by OFFERING themselves up for potential exploitation.

You IMO are displaying a need to trust people to not exploit particularly tempting opportunities. Look to why you preferred your response.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for a car analogy, now I can understand it.

And, I can't think without putting more fuel in my brain's gas tank. That used to be straight caffeine, but nowadays it's cheaper diluted with ethanol. Cheaper than therapy. Hurray, car analogies!

Re:It's the risk you take

[suomynonAyletamitlU]

Are we looking at another dot-com boom?

Bubble. The term you're looking for is bubble. A booming economy is not necessarily fragile, and is not prone to popping all at once as we all wake up from our collective stupor. A bubble is built on such fragile grounds that when it pops we all wonder how it could ever have been built in the first place.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymous Coward]

I knew someone who smoked and lived to old age. So that person proved that smoking doesn't shorten your life. Or maybe I'm a moron. One of those two.

Re:It's the risk you take

[jadavis]

1. I think we can all agree that the criminals are to blame.

2. The victim used poor judgement, took a bad risk, and unfortunately paid the consequences.

3. If everyone used good judgement, would Airbnb still be in business? If not, what are the ethics of starting a business that relies on customers using poor judgement?

4. Can Airbnb mitigate the risk enough that this is still a viable business for customers using good judgement?

5. Airbnb actively prevents the host from getting personal information about the guest to mitigate the risk for themselves. This is a two-faced: they don't want customers to exchange personal information because they might use it to subvert Airbnb's payment channels, thereby cheating Airbnb out of their income; yet they depend on convincing their customers about the good nature of people (the same people who might cheat Airbnb out of their revenue) so that they will be comfortable renting to strangers.

6. The simple humanitarian aspect of the story is quite troubling. I don't necessarily think that it's Airbnb's responsibility to pay in these situations, but allegedly they tried to get her to be quiet to avoid disrupting a funding round, and they seemed to be taking credit for more help than they actually gave to her (allegedly). Some of these facts a little hazy, but on balance, the Airbnb response doesn't look very nice (and by "nice" I don't mean "give her a bunch of money"). Then, Paul Graham (investor) seems to be defending them, but with a fairly incomplete response, and made some unsubstantiated claims that attack a reporter, who very strongly and completely disputes them.

7. It's also slightly disturbing that so much reputation damage is being done to Airbnb when the facts are fairly hazy (and some actively in dispute). At a high level, Airbnb did do basically what one might expect of them: providing what they could to the police, and trying to make their system a little more robust to such problems in the future (if that's possible). I think this is mostly Airbnb's doing, because they handled the humanitarian aspects so poorly.

Re:It's the risk you take

[KingAlanI]

value-add from whose perspective?
Since CouchSurfing is supposed to stay noncommercial AFAIK, that might not work out so well for the person with the space available.

I suppose one needs weasel words in the legalese for odd cases like this, even if things normally go OK. I'm not too deterred by odd-case horror stories (also see PayPal)

(I've never been on Craigslist, and have use AirBnB and CouchSurfing only once each, so I admit to a lack of specific experience.)

Re:It's the risk you take

[darth dickinson]

In essence, I find it hard to understand what added value AirBNB provides over either Craigslist (pay) or Couch Surfing (free, reputation-based).

Bingo. Heck, I'm just an ignorant techno-redneck from Alabama, not nearly as enlightened as my betters in San Fran, and there's no way IN HELL I'd pay to use a service like this. What exactly is their angle?

Re:It's the risk you take

[Vegeta99]

If they tear out all the drywall, the wiring, the plumbing, the flooring, and appliances, leaving you with nothing but a room full of 2x4s holding up the ceiling, then yeah, you could end up paying tens of thousands. But I've never seen a place THAT trashed, and I work for a real estate company that specializes in selling foreclosed properties.

I have. I worked in student housing. One day, the security guard gave me a call around 11PM on the day all the students were to be out and said he found a door that had been left unlocked by the students when they left. The scene inside was horrifying. Each apartment comes furnished, the living room has a couch, end table, bucket chair, TV stand, and a coffee table. The dining room has a table and four chairs. Each bedroom has a bed, desk, chair, and endtable, for four bedrooms.

Everything save the dining room table, beds, and desks had been implanted in the walls. That's eight chairs, five end tables, a coffee table, and a TV stand, made of light steel yet contorted into odd geometric shapes.. The cabinets had been ripped from the walls, the refrigerator left in the middle of the kitchen. The washing machine was full of vomit. The oven had some sort of goo in it as if it had been used to cook crack. The ceiling had unexplainable footprints all over it. Even the storage closet outside was not spared: Its interior had been removed so that the students could slip between their and their neighbor's apartments through the walls.

This was the worst, but certainly not the only one. All said and done, by the end of the summer, we had recorded over $50,000 in damages in a 648 bed complex, with bills to individual students going as high as $5,000 - that's almost the entire school years rent. It's just nuts. These kids are /so/ loaded it's not even funny. One kid reported us to the BBB because we charged him $100 to remove his TV, a gigantic 64" DLP behemoth that worked just fine. What the hell?! Why was it left behind?! And why was I supposed to have to have my maintenance men waste an hour trying to get it out of the third floor apartment?! In another instance, we evicted a kid whose car was worth more than the house I was born in.

In the US, most of the youth are wholly unprepared for life and completely unable to accept any responsibility, and their parents back them up no matter how unruly and uncivilized. I say this as a 25 year old. I had a phone call from a woman one time berating me about her son's damage bill, saying, "Shame on you for ripping off my child! He's just a college student, he doesn't know any better!" My response was that, at the time, I was a college student as well, and I had yet to have a dime removed from my security deposit, even freshman year when I didn't work for the company. I was told that I wasn't allowed to talk to an adult the way I was - telling her that sorry, I might be a "child," but I was the one who wrote the invoices, and no, my "adult" boss wasn't going to make any changes, no matter how wrong or whatever I was.

We had a kid run his car off of our private road, tumble it down a hill and into one of our buildings, prompting an evacuation and us having to house the students in a hotel room. He was drunk, but he managed to get out of the car, take his keys, and run home. On the way home, he slipped and fell. He was never charged with DUI, our insurance had to pay for the damages, AND the insurance paid for his injuries (they didn't want to fight it). Fun times.

Re:It's the risk you take

[R3d M3rcury]

You can walk across a busy highway, and by some miracle escape being hit by a vehicle. That doesn't prove that everyone who told you that you are doing something stupid was wrong.

Fair enough. The question is, how many times do you have to walk across the busy highway and escape being hit by a vehicle in order to prove the person's fears were invalid? 10 times? 100 times? 1000 times?

You're right--she didn't prove him wrong because it is possible that a bad thing could have happened. The issue here is how likely is it that something bad could happen. If I rent my condo 1000 times for $50, I've made $50,000. If I have one bad person who causes $10,000 worth of damage, I'm still ahead. If I have 10 bad people, I've lost money renting my place. The questions is, "How many bad people are out there who are doing this?" Is it a 1% chance? If I rent to 100 people, is it likely that 1 of them will trash the place? Should I charge more with the understanding that, at some point, it's going to happen and I'm going to have to pay to have things fixed?

Bruce Schneier has an interesting article on Worst Case Thinking. While it relates to security, it can also relate to how we look at the world. Is the world full of bad people that we have to defend against and there are only a few good people out there we can trust? Is the world full of good people who we can trust and there are only a few bad people out there that we have to defend against?

I'm not all that impressed with Airbnb. They were originally sympathetic and offered to help. But those offers went away when she posted the blog about what happened and the CEO of the company seemed more concerned about what her blog post might do to the investment money than in helping someone.

If I were Airbnb, I would make sure that this person was happy. That's going to do a hell of a lot more to impress investors than trying to sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened. Such a thing is a possibility--we can argue about how remote this possibility is, certainly, but is is possible. Airbnb should be doing it's best to protect it's customers from such things happening. Nothing is perfect and there will always be incidents like this one. How Airbnb responds is going to be very important.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Zancarius]

This woman is ultra-naive.

It's helpful to remember that while we geek-types tend toward being highly pessimistic, there are a significant amount of people who truly do live in a world where they believe nothing could possibly go wrong. For us, it's alien, simply because we generally don't trust people--and we can't; optimistic and/or ignorant programmers are likely responsible for exploits the rest of us have to deal with.

On the other hand, the response of Slashdot (again, generally speaking) is a symptom of another facet of our tendencies: We have a hard time living in someone else's shoes. Being unable to see ourselves in her position--simply because we would never commit to doing something in the first place--is certainly no excuse to treat her harshly. Was it a mistake? Maybe, but reading her blog is telling and implies that there was no way that she could possibly vet potential guests. Perhaps I can more easily empathize with some people, but regardless, what she went through is something no one should.

I'm with a handful of other posters here. What value does AirBnB add to renting if they don't give you any information about the guest until the last minute? It seems like a scam to me, and it works because there are an awful lot of people who are far too trusting and caring.

Re:It's the risk you take

[AncientPC]

I forgot to mention this in my original post, but a company has already been doing this for the past 5 years called HomeAway.

I don't have any experience with them, but they've managed to avoid AirBNB PR disasters for 5 years running . . .

Re:It's the risk you take

[Seumas]

I'm not even sure how one would do this. Every apartment I've ever rented forbids subletting and you can't even allow a friend or family member to stay more than a few days per year without being required to register them with the leasing office or even put them on your lease. Certainly not for an entire week.

It's unfortunate that this happened, but people need to exercise a little common sense. I have rooms to rent in my house, but I haven't done it because it's a high-risk endeavor and you never know what kind of person you'll end up with and what kind of problems you'll be inviting. Hell, I'm careful about who I invite into my home and what I have visible from my front door, so that when I answer the door people can't be scanning my home for things worth coming back and stealing at a later time. (I live in a neighborhood where you have people come by almost every week trying to sell you roofing, siding, floor work, insulation/weatherizing work, etc -- and they all want to schedule for someone to come inspect your house and give you a quote).

It's hard to imagine that a stupid business idea and stupid people ends up with stupid results.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Seumas]

Let's make a more rational comparison:

This is exactly like renting your home out to a random stranger from Craigslist.

Do I need to go any further?

Re:It's the risk you take

[Seumas]

I somehow doubt some random chick who spends all her time traveling is also an expert carpenter and cabinet maker on the side. Therefore, she would have to hire someone to do the work and if you hire someone to do the work, they're going to need the permission of the property owner to do it. When she moves out, she's going to have to pay whatever the company who owns her apartment complex wants for the repairs and they typically charge through the nose.

Hell, just ruined carpets in a place, say, 1,000sqft, could run you five grand or more.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Seumas]

You don't need to be pessimistic by nature to have common sense. If you told anyone "hey, I'm renting my home out to a total stranger from craigslist while I'm out of the country", they would tell you that you're an idiot. Your parents would tell you this. Your friends would. Your coworkers would. Your neighbors would. Your landlord would. There's a reason your landlord makes you fill out a lengthy application, submit a security deposit, and perform a credit check and criminal background check.

This is about as common sense as when your mother told you not to accept candy or rides from strangers when you were five years old.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever try to fix a central air system full of concrete?

Re:It's the risk you take

[awacs]

Oh? Never had a tenant pour concrete down all the drains, then run the water - until it stops? EVERYTHING has to ripped out to fix the plumbing. Total train wreck ...

Re:It's the risk you take

[horza]

The other posts in this thread are just depressing, and they don't seem to understand this fact at all. I've let plenty of people stay at my place, rent free, including from abroad stranded with no money and nowhere to live. I've never had a single bad experience. Sure I may have been lucky, but I think I helped a number of people out. Once I had a party and I let some foreigners keep a set of my keys as I had to rush off and catch a plane. When I got back my favourite watch had disappeared. I thought about asking them for it, they were in town for a few more days after I got back, but I went with my gut instinct and believed they hadn't touched it. I found it, of all the cliched places, down the back of my couch. I was SO glad I hadn't gone up to them and accused them of theft!

Sometimes you will get robbed, you may occasionally rent to somebody that abuses your trust, in business or personal life a supposed friend may stab you in the back. Get over it and get on with your life, and be thankful that 99% of people simply aren't like that.

Phillip.

Re:It's the risk you take

[horza]

Wow you must live in a rough depressed neighbourhood. Maybe you should consider moving?

Phillip.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Mr. Slippery]

This is exactly like renting your home out to a random stranger from Craigslist.

No, it's not., as the victim explains:

Then along came airbnb.com, with its accolades in the media and great reviews, and it seemed like the perfect solution! Certainly it's a brilliant idea, offering a controlled and seemingly low-risk environment in which travelers and hosts can connect and exchange - the Facebook of couch-surfing, so to speak - that appears to eliminate all the insecurity and randomness of using Craigslist.

...

Yet now I ask myself this: for what, exactly, did I pay a service fee to airbnb.com? What did I get in exchange for my 20-something dollars? What was the advantage of using this service over Craigslist, which is free? Ironically airbnb.comâ(TM)s site states âoethe promise of our site is that it is entirely transparentâ when in reality, it is not. And therein lies the fundamental, though not immediately apparent, difference: on Craigslist, I am warned loudly and repeatedly that use of the site is at my own risk. I am encouraged to take certain precautions, and I have the ability to do so by gaining quick access to the email addresses, phone numbers, and other identifying information of the person(s) I am communicating with, all of which can be researched and at least somewhat verified by means of basic internet searches. Alternatively, airbnb.com tightly controls the communication between host and traveler, disallowing the exchange of personal contact information until the point in which a reservation is already confirmed and paid for. By hindering my ability to research the person who will rent my home, there is an implication that airbnb.com has already done the research for me, and has eliminated the investigative work that Craigslist requires.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymous Coward]

Was the student's name Ted Kennedy?

Re:It's the risk you take

[Aighearach]

Although everything went fine

Uhm... dude... so even when it happened to somebody close to you, instead of learning what happened, you took it as a lesson to avoid the thing that didn't happen. Congratulations, you're in cloud-cuckoo-land.

Re:It's the risk you take

[CycleMan]

No, it's a realistic balance of the difference between the upside and downside potentials of the transaction given some unknown variables. Some of my family advised strongly that I have some written up agreement with my fellow renters when we jointly rented a place, to spell out details such as if damages occur or one person isn't paying their full share or other contingencies. Because I knew these fellow renters reasonably, I made the decision to forego such write-ups but if I were rooming with strangers, I would have wanted better documentation. As it was, I think I came out slightly ahead in one of the situations and slightly behind in the other, but valued the cameraderie more than the financial impact.

If there were more at stake, such as a large personal loan to family or friends, I would want something in writing acknowledging the loan and the terms of repayment, even if it were just in plain English or one of the Nolo Press forms. Part of the point of the written agreement is that you hope they are not scumbags and they hope the same of you; by clearly defining some general expectations in advance, you can complete the transaction knowing that you won't be seen as a scumbag to the other person.

Re:It's the risk you take

[gknoy]

I think it's partly that many of us geeks have a strong sense of right and wrong, sometimes irrationally so: to the point where it's hard to even imagine someone behaving so poorly, because "WTF, WHY!?". I mean ... *I* would never do something like that. No one I know would do that. It's not even remotely on the radar of something I'd do to an enemy, let alone a landlord. It's hard to imagine the sort of brain damage (or ethical bankruptcy) which would lead someone to behave that way.

We know they do, we just have a really hard time understanding it.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, that wouldn't have occurred to me. People can be creative little shits when they set their mind to destroying something.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as I can tell they're not publicly traded yet (and at this point may never be). So you'd have a hard time shorting it even if you had heard about it sooner.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Tim C]

It's helpful to remember that while we geek-types tend toward being highly pessimistic, there are a significant amount of people who truly do live in a world where they believe nothing could possibly go wrong.

And yet my bet would be that the vast majority of them lock their doors when they leave the house, have insurance, etc.

Re:It's the risk you take

[ledow]

I crossed a road today without looking and didn't get run over. Hey, it's obviously perfectly safe to do! Hey, kids, lets all cross the road without looking!

Dick.

Even if the MAJORITY of cases it works out fine, the risk attached is still real and present and vastly outweighs the benefits. Renting your house to unchecked strangers that you're not verifying will ALWAYS, ultimately end up in a loss for you. Trashing your apartment and stealing your credentials (as the article says) without insurance that covers it (and I'm pretty certain that no insurance will) will cost you vastly more than you would EVER make from renting your place over your entire life.

Hence my complaint that a) she's probably not insured or isn't covered for those events, b) she should never have left personal documents in the house anyway, c) she shouldn't have let it out to someone she had never met or couldn't verify the identity of. Sure, my mother-in-law got away with it. But if she hadn't the consequences would have been on a par (or worse) than this article states - and would make it so that you could NEVER recoup your losses from continuing that activity and hoping it never happens again.

Re:It's the risk you take

[WillDraven]

Looking at the replies here, I guess I've been spared from the worst of it! I suppose that's because we mostly deal with adults who were at least mature enough to interact with a bank and get a mortgage at one point. The other thing that helps prevent us from receiving the worst of the "fuck the bank for taking my house, I'm goanna turn it into a shithole first!" is a program we participate in called "Cash for Keys" where we pay the people getting kicked out enough money to cover their moving expenses and their first months rent at a new place if they calmly move out without trashing the place. Of course there are always those people who, upon realizing they're getting foreclosed upon, refuse to answer the phone and the door until the sheriff shows up to remove them, so they never even get the message that we are trying to give them money to move along peacefully. Some of those places have lots of holes in the drywall or some missing appliances, but generally if they're not smart enough to negotiate with the bank they're not creative enough to pour concrete down the plumbing or into the air conditioner. The most expensive thing we have to deal with on a regular basis* is the external component of A/C units getting stolen for the copper in them when a property sits vacant for a while, and it's not obvious whether it was the former tenant or just some random poor person looking to make a quick couple bucks.

*That is caused by somebody destroying something, repairing a septic tank costs an arm and a leg but that's generally caused by normal wear and tear or mother nature rearranging the bit of earth it's stuck in.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, there goes my movie script. Thanks Doug and The DoW, a "Spoiler" alert would have been nice.

M Night.

Re:It's the risk you take

[b0bby]

I have rented a number of places from vrbo.com - not exactly the same, in that they're mostly vacation homes, but they still have some nice stuff in them. I've always been a little worried that it might turn out to be a scam, and I'm sure the owners are a little worried that I might be a crook, but it has always worked out ok. There are easier ways to rob a house that to make contact with the victim; unless you're pretty savvy, the police are going to be able to trace where the phone calls/emails came from. The fact that these clowns have been caught already shows that this is a stupid way to rob people. Most meth heads are just going to kick in a door instead.

The other thing is that with most airbnb rentals, from what I understand, the owner is still around. Having the whole place to yourself is the exception rather than the rule. So the whole concept of the site is not based around this type of scenario.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Anonymous Coward]

May I ask, which university are you talking about?

Re:It's the risk you take

[mjpaci]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "trashed." if they punch a few holes in the walls, mess up the paint, and stain the carpets, the repairs shouldn't ruin you financially. If they tear out all the drywall, the wiring, the plumbing, the flooring, and appliances, leaving you with nothing but a room full of 2x4s holding up the ceiling, then yeah, you could end up paying tens of thousands. But I've never seen a place THAT trashed, and I work for a real estate company that specializes in selling foreclosed properties.

Kind of reminds me of Pacific Heights starring Michael Keaton....

Re:It's the risk you take

[Vegeta99]

Wow, big points for working for a decent real estate agency! I dealt with a branch campus of PSU that basically had to beat 18-19 year olds into shape so they could handle real university. It was quite comical after a few years. We would put price sheets up for every single thing in the apartment - literally everything, a light bulb was $2.00 or $0.50 per roommate, door hinge screws were a buck per hinge per side, etc. We'd hang it on the door, we made them sign for it on move-in, we would distribute it with inspection notices, we'd hand it out with move-out instructions.

Lesson learned? Build your student housing out of cinder blocks. Make damn sure you have good liability insurance tho - cinder doesn't give way to a drunken head the way drywall does.

Re:It's the risk you take

[phorm]

Never used couch-surfing. I have used airbnb a few times (to find a place to stay, not to rent out).
The rating system were fairly decent, but I don't know how one could trust an unknown never-rated person to stay in your house. I suppose at the least you have the name on the paypal/credit-card tied to the renter, but there's still room for abuse.

All-in-all, they have a decent online system so long as you're willing to have trust in other people, but obviously not everyone is trustworthy. It's worth mentioning that their phone-support does suck completely though. I've never managed to connect to a live person initially (though I did get a call-back the next day), which really sucks for anyone that might arrive and find their lodgings sub-par or unavailable.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Zancarius]

And yet my bet would be that the vast majority of them lock their doors when they leave the house, have insurance, etc.

While true, I sincerely believe that there are some people who don't fully appreciate the dichotomy they've created by simultaneously locking their doors and renting out their place to complete strangers (it seems odd to us, but again, the personality type in question is one that the more rational types--which includes almost all of Slashdot, with the exception of some ACs--find difficult to understand).

Although, I can explain the insurance: Most states require it, by law, and with the Affordable Healthcare Act, health insurance will be a legal requirement by next year. So yes, I understand your point (it's a good one!), but I was hoping to play devil's advocate enough to explain my take on why someone would do something quite so stupid without fully understanding (or appreciating) why it is such.

Re:It's the risk you take

[Zancarius]

ou don't need to be pessimistic by nature to have common sense. If you told anyone "hey, I'm renting my home out to a total stranger from craigslist while I'm out of the country", they would tell you that you're an idiot. Your parents would tell you this. Your friends would. Your coworkers would. Your neighbors would. Your landlord would. There's a reason your landlord makes you fill out a lengthy application, submit a security deposit, and perform a credit check and criminal background check.

I think it's feasible to be so highly optimistic, one becomes gravely naive, which was the crux of my point (which, in retrospect, I don't think I made very clear). I think that's what happened in this circumstance, just based off of that individual's other blog posts (besides the ones in question). My point wasn't so much about common sense (or lack thereof) as much as it was an attempt to 1) play devil's advocate, 2) explain why I think we were reacting to the news as we were, and 3) attempting to understand why the individual in the story did what she did that brought her into the circumstances she wrote about. Consider it a sort of thought game, although I didn't quite have the time when I wrote my post to make good of that very well.

I'm not so sure I made those points as obvious as I was hoping, so if you need clarification, I'd be happy to provide it.

Caveat adoptor

[Svartormr]

and this is interesting to Slashdot because?

...Slashdotters are early adopters of many new products. And everyone needs reminding now and then that just because most people are reasonable doesn't mean this particular stranger will be. (Apologies for the Latin-English mismash.)

Re:Caveat adoptor

[Anonymous Coward]

...Slashdotters are early adopters of many new products.

That would actually surprise me given the fact that most articles about new products in slashdot are met with comments that lambast them, saying "why would we need this" or "this is just product x again" or "just another fad."

And of course the others where it ends up being "I welcome our new x overlords" and "when can I put it on a shark."

Re:Caveat adoptor

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not good unless it runs Linux. And no, sharks and windows is a recipe for disaster, they may get a virus and turn on you!

Re:Caveat adoptor

[nospam007]

"...Slashdotters are early adopters of many new products. "

'Timeshare scam' is new?
It gets 36 million hits in Google.

Re:Caveat adoptor

[Svartormr]

"...Slashdotters are early adopters of many new products. "

'Timeshare scam' is new? It gets 36 million hits in Google.

Very good point. But even an old dog wrapped in a new technology can appear different and cause people to let their guard down. EJ had sublet her place via Craigslist before and when using Airbnb she semi-consciously assumed what due diligence she had done before was done by them.

(Most two-word searches get hits in the millions. "orange wombat" was down at 1.17 million, even though there's www.orangewombats.com.)

I wish I could view the world EJ's way...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's awful that this happened to her but I'm in a bit of disbelief that someone could be this free with their home.

From reading her blog posting (from a month ago?) about this, it seems she didn't really follow the Safety Tips for Hosts on Airbnb. It didn't sound like she really vetted the person that was going to rent (supposedly you can turn down potential renters. They say to look for full profile info, pictures, that sorta thing. She didn't even know the person's real name...). I could see using the service if you had an extra vacation home, condo, or similar where the furnishings weren't necessarily precious beyond their retail cost but for the location you keep your documents, heirlooms, and porn?

Wasn't there a story about a car rental service with a similar model (rent your personal car to complete strangers)? I have to wonder how they handle something similar.

I also wonder how Home/Renters insurance companies view something like this. In their shoes, I certainly would want to raise rates on someone that is so carefree with what you are trying to insure.

It just seems a bit naive to me. Airbnb should vet the renters better or at least offer some form of insurance policy, but this was just an incident waiting to happen.

I honestly wish I could view the world with the same amount of trust that 'EJ' can (well, or could, this is likely a hard lesson).

Re:I wish I could view the world EJ's way...

[lpp]

From some quick googling, it seems that that safety FAQ was only recently made available, perhaps in response to the whole EJ incident. If you go to the Wayback Machine (http://wayback.archive.org/web) and enter that page's URL (http://www.airbnb.com/home/safety) and click 'Show All', it will tell you it doesn't have it but there are other pages. Go ahead and look at what airbnb had to offer the wayback machine and you'll see a tips page. Check that one out and you'll see some very very simple safety suggestions. Except they aren't NEARLY as protective as what this new page makes out.

Should she have done more to protect herself? Sure. Would I personally ever use airbnb? No; my trust of my fellow human doesn't go that far. But don't make it appear that at the time EJ performed her transaction on the website that airbnb had posted stringent rules about staying safe and protecting yourself.

Re:I wish I could view the world EJ's way...

[millisa]

Ooh, good catch. (I'm the A/C above, didn't notice I wasn't logged in). I have to wonder what type of info they may have posted to the logged in user at the time when they made the listings. Probably very little based on what you found. I think most of us agree she appears to have approached the whole thing without enough common sense.

I just ran across this usatoday article which had some more info (apparently the 19 year old isn't in SF PD custody anymore...).

EJ claims she hasn't gotten squat from airbnb still, airbnb is saying they have offered all sortsa compensation. Seems like an easy enough thing to verify; I don't get how it's still a he-says-she-says routine.

What was interesting in the article was this bit from airbnb:
Airbnb, while pointing out that the incident was the first of its kind out of some 2 million stays booked since the company's founding in 2008, announced that it would be doubling the size of its customer service staff (42 people at the time of the incident and 88 currently), offering insurance to hosts and creating a "Trust and Safety" department, among other measures.

That seems to imply that they do not currently offer insurance. How naive of them to not consider it necessary in the last 3 years. One of their similar competitors, roomarama.com, also doesn't provide any type of insurance.

Also from that article:
She said was "growing a very thick skin" because of accusations that she was part of a plot by the hotel industry to discredit Airbnb, and because of criticism that she courted disaster by opening her rented apartment to strangers.
That's just harsh. I couldn't find who was supposedly making those accusations, but if it's more than the cynical /. user, that just isn't right.

Here's hoping she at least gets her backup drive back.

Rose lensed glasses for everyone!

Re:I wish I could view the world EJ's way...

[rossjudson]

When you read AirBNB's current (as of 2:40pm 7/31/2011) FAQ, it's seriously frowned-upon for a host to use the "contact information" they are given to actually make a decision to NOT rent to someone. Step 5 is accept or deny request, at which point you have no information. Step 6 is AirBNB collects the payment. Step 7 sends the real contact info. Step 8 describes when payment will be released. And that's the end of their public process.

There's no step 9 -- what to do if you are unhappy with the details you received. At the end of the FAQ we find "We take host cancellations very seriously, because they pose a huge problem to guests' travel plans and they hurt the reliability of our website. When a host cancels, their ranking in search results is negatively affected." That means AirBNB is going to penalize you, as a host, if you elect not to accept a guest based on the contact information you have received.

Seems to me that AirBNB is going to have to come up with a policy for the "early period", during which time a member is considered "new". A new member should probably have a mandatory security deposit requirement, and any such reservation request should be flagged as a new member request.

Could someone clarify this

[mvar]

So this woman EJ rented her house, with her personal stuff, photos, jewelry etc to a COMPLETE stranger through some web site..and now she's mad & surprised because she got robbed? WTF ?

Re:Could someone clarify this

[digitalchinky]

How often do we get mugged walking down the street? It can happen, but it's so exceedingly rare that it never happens to most of us. This is not even a remotely new concept - there are tons of travel forums where people offer this kind of service from all over the world. If you read a little closer, this woman didn't take any basic precautions like getting ID, photographs, references, phone numbers and so on. Sure you could fake all of that information, but then you need accomplices.

Right you are, she is mad and surprised, though the thought of easy money for her obviously far outweighed the minimal effort she put in to get it. Hopefully the people who did it are caught, and hopefully this woman learns a very valuable life lesson.

Re:Could someone clarify this

[jimicus]

A lot of this is reading between the lines, but if you RTFA, she didn't do any due diligence because she couldn't. Airbnb explicitly demand that all communication takes place through their website - which can make it hard to get someone's email address, phone number and references.

To a lay person, this is more-or-less how traditional letting agents work. The landlord and the tenant aren't even allowed to communicate directly until contracts are signed; either tenant and/or landlord pay the agent a fee and the agent does all the checks before this happens.

Therefore - reasonably if somewhat naively - EJ assumed that this was pretty close to a traditional letting agency - and Airbnb would have done these checks themselves. After all, they charged her a fee much like any other tenant-finding service.

Re:Could someone clarify this

[Anonymous Coward]

Despite the trust (read: idiocy) of strangers, I still have some sympathy for this person. I may consider that this person, and those like this person, to be far too trusting, but that doesn't belie the inherent feeling of "damn that sucked and I'm sorry for you."

I think of it like rape victims (and the way the blog post characterizes it feels...remarkably similar). Yeah some folks may say "x was asking for it" or "y should've done this or that to prevent it" while jeering at the person, but in the end the fact of the matter is that someone here was violated in a horrible fashion. Not *quite* in the same way as rape, but in some ways it is very *very* close.

Have some sympathy for the person. Please. And after that, you can get back on your high horse.

Re:Could someone clarify this

[Gaygirlie]

If you read a little closer, this woman didn't take any basic precautions like getting ID, photographs, references, phone numbers and so on

That's because Airbnb explicitly denies the possibility of doing such: you do not get any kind of details, not even phone number, on the rentee. Blaming it on EJ is kind of pointless then.

Re:Could someone clarify this

[Kenneth Stephen]

Yes, Airbnb is a service that doesn't provide any value (why do they exist, again?), but thats not the problem here. Even if they did provide verification of the renter, it would still be stupid to rent out ones apartment exposing private and personal information to some stranger. In this case, the landlord realized that her identity was at risk because the place had been comprehensively trashed. A smarter thief would have simply noted down all the personal data would letting the landlord suspect anything. And because the identity theft using this data could happen many months later, it would be difficult to pin this down to a specific renter.

There is no escaping the fact that landlords like this need a reality check. Maybe the world is filled with people who do and want to do the right thing, but why would you take a risk like this assuming that no bad apples would come in contact with you?

Re:Could someone clarify this

[Anonymous Coward]

How often do we get mugged walking down the street? It can happen, but it's so exceedingly rare that it never happens to most of us.

Do you live in a gated community or something? I don't know a single person who has never been mugged.

Re:Could someone clarify this

[Anonymous Coward]

That is because they expect the renter/rentee to get aquainted first, and then exchange contact info I'd they want to move forward... Kinda like an online dating site!

They provide a means of making contact, and assume the users are competent enough to proceed from there.

Makes perfect sense to me!

Re:Could someone clarify this

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because Airbnb explicitly denies the possibility of doing such: you do not get any kind of details, not even phone number, on the rentee. Blaming it on EJ is kind of pointless then.

Blame is perhaps too strong a word, but certainly her acceptance of such odd terms wasn't exactly a smart move on her part.

Re:Could someone clarify this

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you live in some hell-hole slum? I don't know a single person who has ever been mugged.

Re:Could someone clarify this

[couchslug]

Why isn't the whole idea of apartment-sharing an met with instant and total scorn?

Stupidity has consequences.

Re:Could someone clarify this

[nbauman]

Because it's worked in the past, in various forms, successfully for many years.

There was a group you could join in the 1970s to get your name in a directory of people who would put other people up free, in exchange for reciprocity by somebody else when they were looking for a place to stay -- sort of Craigslist before computers. Great deal if you like to travel and meet people.

That's different from going off and leaving somebody to rent your house in your absence, but there are dangers in having people as guests in your own home.

When I was in college, I was renting a house that I sublet to some physics graduate students for the summer. I had to clean the place up after they left (not malicious, just lazy), but it was worth it for three months rent.

Usually, when you sublet, you check them out. My sub-tenants were students at the same school, and I got them through the school housing office, so they couldn't disapper.

One of the problems in this case is that Airbnb actually makes it more difficult or impossible for you to check the renter out. As several astute /.'rs have pointed out, what exactly is the value-added that this company offers over Craigslist?

I'd like to see a lawyer give an opinion on what liability Airbnb has to this blogger, notwithstanding their boilerplate waivers.

Re:Could someone clarify this

[TheRaven64]

Wow, please let me know where you live so I can make sure that I never visit...

Re:Could someone clarify this

[jadavis]

My understanding is that you only get the contact information after the deal is sealed. I'm sure there's still a way to back out at that point, but I doubt it's very easy (and probably has some negative consequences on your score as a host).

Re:Could someone clarify this

[Seumas]

How is it pointless? EJ is the idiot who accepted the Airbnb terms and went along with renting it out without those basic precautions. Nobody forced her to accept the terms and rent anyway. All she had to do was say "nevermind, I'm not doing this" when she found out that there is no vetting of individuals and no opportunity to get information about your potential renter.

It is entirely her fault the same way it would be her fault if this had happened from one of her random Craigslist renters.

Re:Could someone clarify this

[Seumas]

Therefore - reasonably if somewhat naively - EJ assumed that this was pretty close to a traditional letting agency - and Airbnb would have done these checks themselves. After all, they charged her a fee much like any other tenant-finding service.

Since this woman also has previously rented her home to random people from Craigslist while she traveled, I would assert that she made no such assumptions. She is simply naive and stupid, as is anyone else who is dumb enough to do this.

Re:Could someone clarify this

[Seumas]

It's one thing to rent out a room in a house that you own and live in. It's another to rent out your entire home to a stranger while you are ten thousand miles away. The whole "couch-surfing" concept is dumb, but reasonable. Short of the person being a rapist or an axe-wielding killer, letting someone crash on my couch while I'm in the room down the hall isn't nearly as big of a risk as letting someone stay at my home for a week or two while I'm on the other side of the planet. Although, even then, I sure would give my house a thorough once-over and lock everything I give a damn up lest it disappear in the night.

Airbnb should have no liability to this idiot, but Airbnb should lose most of its valuation. Of all the stupid fucking concepts that have had enormous price tags attached to them by morons in tech and finance industries in the last three years, this might take the cake.

Re:Could someone clarify this

[Seumas]

We don't get mugged often while walking down the street, but I guarantee that if you leave your wallet or purse out on the street in whatever neighborhood this idiot rented her apartment out in, it will be stolen 99.99% of the time. The same way her home probably wouldn't have been trashed if she was letting someone stay there while she was there, but was completely fucking trashed when she let a random jackass she knew nothing about stay there while she was thousands of miles away.

Re:Could someone clarify this

[j-beda]

People rent out their homes all over the world, all the time, and have been doing so since forever. Heck, there is an entire class of people (academics on sabbatical) that do so on a reoccurring basis. (See http://sabbaticalhomes.com/ and http://academichomes.com/ for websites set up to assist in this type of thing - I doubt either of them is raising a billion in funding however).

References and a bit of biographical history probably go a long way to preventing huge problems, but proper insurance would also seem to be appropriate.

With all that said, if someone was actively trying to be an evil bastard, they could probably fake stuff to get past all that background checking.

For the most part however, the number of total fuckups like this are pretty small compared to the number of rentals that go off with no or only minor difficulties. The value to the renter and the rentee in most cases is pretty high so I doubt very much that this story is in any way going to limit the future marketplace.

Re:Could someone clarify this

[Gaygirlie]

She likely expected Airbnb to do atleast _some_ checks as to who they were accepting as rentees. It's not unreasonable to expect such from them. We don't even know how they advertise themselves to people, did they ever let her know that they don't check the candidates in any way?

Re:Could someone clarify this

[Anonymous Coward]

Not, it's not pointless. Airbnb might have not allowed those precautions, but then it was really stupid of EJ to have chosen to use Airbnb because those precautions were not taken by Airbnb and could not be undertaken by EJ herself.

SHOULD HAVE ASKED FOR SLASHDOT CREED !!

[Anonymous Coward]

Creds ?? Whateva !! No one here is a loon, that much is for sure !! Even our illustrious Cmdr. is no worse than an STD, from a Bangok street whore. No, no. We are all safe. Every fucking last one of us... EXCEPT YOU !! Yeah, YOU, MOTHERFUCKER !! You think I forgot about you ?? WRONG !! Yes, YOU !!

Mostly safe.

All these

[Dunbal]

Billion dollar company I have never even heard of. Who says dot-com is dead?

Or is a billion dollars really so little nowadays.

Re:All these

[FoolishOwl]

I'm not the most clued-in person around, but I'm still surprised that I've never heard of Airbnb before, given that I live in San Francisco.

Re:All these

[jimicus]

Billion dollar company I have never even heard of. Who says dot-com is dead?

Billion dollar company you have never heard of that isn't making any profit (otherwise they wouldn't be asking VCs for money), that doesn't deal in anything tangible, that owns very little in the way of real assets (Office furniture typically goes for a fraction of its new value at auction; they're using outside companies to host their website and email so they probably don't have much of their own server infrastructure), that adds no real value for their customers and does something that almost anyone could replicate very quickly and cheaply.

A company that is so secure in their billion-dollar valuation that the CEO actually contacted the blogger in question and explicitly said that he was concerned about what that blog entry would do to the valuation of his company.

AFAICT, sounds like an absolutely classic dot-com disaster waiting to happen.

Re:All these

[FoolishOwl]

that adds no real value for their customers and does something that almost anyone could replicate very quickly and cheaply.

Come to think of it, you could advertise a sublet on Craigslist for free, and maintain your control over the entire process, including running background checks on the renters, getting insurance, and all the rest. It doesn't sound like Airbnb adds anything useful at all.

AFAICT, sounds like an absolutely classic dot-com disaster waiting to happen.

This is the disaster unfolding.

Re:All these

[SecurityGuy]

Or is a billion dollars really so little nowadays.

nah, but a billion dollar valuation is a little different than an actual billion dollars. To get the actual billion, you have to sell the company to some damn fool for that much money. Sadly, that kind of thing really does happen so the line between valuation and value is pretty murky.

Short answer, yes it's a tech bubble, it's irrational, and we should know better but clearly don't.

Apparently Slashdot is like the patent office

[mangu]

Adding "on the internet" to something turns it from a trivial happening into Slashdot-worthy material. It's the same method companies use to cancel prior art at the USPTO.

Re:Apparently Slashdot is like the patent office

[Teancum]

It is a compelling story and something that has been burning up the blogosphere, and Slashdot is a news aggregator site. There are more than a few other connections with the tech industry here, not to mention that sometimes you have to stop and realize others have a life too. Complaining that this shouldn't have been made a story only means that you should have been going through the firehose and modding this down previously.

From my own experience at sifting through the firehose, this is at least a decent story and worthy of promotion to the front page compared to the rest of the garbage that is typically submitted. If you have a more compelling story and something more "news for nerds" worthy.... submit it! I've had more than a couple stories hit the front page, how about you?

Call me paranoid

[Anonymous Coward]

I rent a house and the landlord wanted to send round some painters to paint the windows and front door. I wasnt going to be in that day i was at work and didnt want to take a day off just for that. anyway i'm talking to the painter on the phone and he asks me to leave the house keys next door to he can open the front door and paint the frame and the whole door, thats when i my alarm bells started ringing so i said to him how about you leave me the can of paint and i'll finish the inside of the door, so he says no i cant do that. so i left it at that, i'm thinking you dont trust me with a can of paint but you want me to trust you with my house keys?

Re:Call me paranoid

[Seumas]

When I was renting an apartment, they would come in several times a year just to inspect every unit. And several more times a year to spray for pests, test alarms, and so on. They would often not give more than about 24hrs notice. I still made sure to be home each and every time they did this, even though it meant sitting around the entire day waiting for them. The idea that you'd let a complete stranger into your home without being there - even if they own the property itself - is just stupid.

In fact, I had something similar to your experience. The last apartment I lived in before I bought a house decided to paint every single apartment door. They instructed tenants that they would be doing this, but that after they painted the doors, they would have to be left wide open for 6-12hrs while the paint dried. I was fucking floored. They seriously expected everyone to just go about their business and allow someone from the leasing office to open every door in the middle of the week while renters were at work and then leave the doors fucking wide open on 600 units, so that anyone could just walk in?

I stayed home when they intended to do this. They came around and opened the doors. Then waited for the painters to come and do their thing. I waited for hours. And hours. And hours. They never came and the doors were never painted. Ever. Not that day. Not that week. Not for the rest of my entire lease, until I moved out.

Oh, and a few months later? I was the victim of a home invasion, while sleeping the sleep of death like only someone who has worked almost 48hrs straight can sleep, in the middle of the day. Someone (clearly with a key to my place - which left only someone affiliated with the apartment complex, since I lived alone and knew nobody in the state at that time) let themselves in, took my stuff quietly, and let themselves back out. Even locking the door back up on their way out.

Needless to say, I left right after my lease was up and bought a house, instead.

Go figure

[Anonymous Coward]

Give someone you don't know access to your apartment when you aren't there and they trash it? Who would have every thought of that? Maybe I just don't have that much faith in humanity but this seems like a "Did you learn your lesson?" moment.

Brilliant business model preying on gullible twits

[billcopc]

Let me get this straight. The gimmick is you rent out your place to a total stranger, you don't even meet them face-to-face, and expect them not to run away with all your phat loot ? Moronic. Hotels don't trust them anywhere near as much. They sure as shit don't leave anything of real value in closets, despite the cameras on each floor and at all exits.

What happened to EJ is truly vile, but what the fuck was she expecting ? She probably felt generous thinking 3% of Airbnb users would be vile, but she got the math wrong. Yes, 3% might be wanted criminals, but then about 90% are opportunist scum, and the remaining 7% are people like EJ with their heads in the clouds. All the locks and home insurance in the world are pointless if you're handing your keys to any stranger with a credit card.

After reading that post, I almost think she was asking for it, that it was all a set-up to show how dangerous this thing can be. Heck, I could do the same: I'll just write my door code on the lock itself, then leave for a week. By the time I return, I guarantee you there will be nothing left of my apartment, not even the fancy lock! They'll even smile at my cameras as they walk out with my used underwear.

Inventing a farcical business model, backed by a handful of dot-com profiteers is not going to change the fact that people are, by default, selfish, destructive, competitive swine until proven otherwise. People are greedy little shits, and nothing is going to change that as long as we worship possessions and wealth.

Re:Brilliant business model preying on gullible tw

[geniice]

Let me get this straight. The gimmick is you rent out your place to a total stranger, you don't even meet them face-to-face, and expect them not to run away with all your phat loot ? Moronic. Hotels don't trust them anywhere near as much. They sure as shit don't leave anything of real value in closets, despite the cameras on each floor and at all exits.

What happened to EJ is truly vile, but what the fuck was she expecting ? She probably felt generous thinking 3% of Airbnb users would be vile, but she got the math wrong. Yes, 3% might be wanted criminals, but then about 90% are opportunist scum, and the remaining 7% are people like EJ with their heads in the clouds. All the locks and home insurance in the world are pointless if you're handing your keys to any stranger with a credit card.

I would argue that perhaps the more interesting side of the story is the whole PR battle aspect. Airbnb falsely make people feel safer than Craigslist and the current PR mess is complicating that. Oh and opportunist scum are probably less of a risk than you might expect. After all they would probably like to rent cheaply in future and could do without the criminal record. It's simply not in their interest to rise above the level of minor annoyance.

Of course realistically you are just falling for another PR line. In reality all the locks and home insurance in the world are pointless when dealing with actual criminals. Hotel rooms get broken into, there are dodgy B&B places out there and burglars are unfortunately smart enough to break in while you are away on holiday.

Slashvertisement

[rebelwarlock]

Since there's nothing remotely tech about this story, with the possible exception of a website existing, and the fact that they do unrelated plugs to other stories in an attempt to make this airbnb thing sound neat, I'm going to go ahead and say this is just an attempt at getting more attention/traffic their way. I'm not saying no vandalism occurred, I'm just saying that there's no part of this story that belongs on slashdot, and it's only here because it serves as a way to get them more of that SEO goodness with the google love machine.

Re:Slashvertisement

[geniice]

Its a PR fight and if the recent history of tech is anything to go by it is the PR that matters.

Re:Slashvertisement

[adamofgreyskull]

Is the news that we're in the middle of another bubble? To wit: some company I've never heard of that has nothing and produces nothing is supposedly worth $1bn + and has already convinced some chumps to pony up $112m.

Re:Slashvertisement

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah...I'm thinking the VC's haven't really learned their lessons with the last bubble like this.

Re:Slashvertisement

[Anonymous Coward]

Well the ad didn't work, Airbnb seems like the most stupid idea in the universe.

Re:Slashvertisement

[Rich0]

I'm thinking the real problem is that there is far too much cash floating around and not enough productive work going on. I think that the concept of retirement is a big part of the problem.

50 years ago, nobody saved for retirement, since nobody retired. You earned money, and for the most part you spent it. Since spending goes to things being produced now, to get you to spend money a company actually has to sell you something, which means they need to employ people and capital to produce it.

Now people dream about spending decades of their life idle (and the fact that we've extended longevity but not quality of life in old age proportionately doesn't help). So, people pile away cash, or get their employers to do it for them. All that cash means a need for investments. Since nobody is buying anything there isn't as much demand for tangible capital or employment. And, there is no shortage of investment schemes that promise double-digit growth, which you'll never get from some big factory somewhere. So, we end up with hedge funds, and complex financial schemes that usually just result in bubbles.

I think the only way we'll see the bubbles go away is if you get rid of some of the extra cash, or otherwise create incentive to spend it on stuff that produces tangible goods or employment or infrastructure. The problem with the modern start-up is that while they supposedly get millions or billions of "capital" in terms of valuation, they tend to occupy an office or two and 25 people. There is little of substance being invested in.

How'd 19 y.o. tweaker w/ warrent rent from AirBNB?

[leftie]

This isn't going to help make this any less of a PR nightmare for AirBNB.

How did a tweaker with a warrant under 21 get approved by AirBNB to rent from them?

Billionaires bloated w/ cash like Macy's balloon

[leftie]

The Billionaires a bloated with cash they've plunders the last two decades. All the money that was in real estate is cash now too.
They are just flinging around money now.

withoutvirtual.noreality@gmail.com

[schn]

they have a nice email address

Re:Brilliant business model preying on gullible tw

[maxume]

The never-meeting-the-guest and not-monitoring-the-accommodations are not intrinsic to the business model, they are choices the host made.

The not worrying about whether the host has proper insurance or the legal right to do short term subletting does seem to be a major component of the business model.

WON"T HAPPEN TO ME !! CUZ I'M FUCKING PARANOID !!

[Anonymous Coward]

Krank'll do that to you, doncano !! You only see around corners for so long, then WHAM !! They fucking move in and start talking from the walls !! Ask Amy !!

You can look, but you can't touch
I don't think I like you much
Heaven knows what a girl can do
Heaven knows what you've got to prove

I think I'm paranoid
And complicated
I think I'm paranoid
Manipulate it

Bend me, break me
Anyway you need me
All I want is you
Bend me, break me
Breaking down is easy
All I want is you

I fall down just to give you a thrill
Prop me up with another pill
If I should fail, if I should fold
I nailed my faith to the sticking pole

I think I'm paranoid
Manipulate it
I think I'm paranoid
And complicated

Steal me, deal me, anyway you heal me
Maim me, tame me, you can never change me
Love me, like me, come ahead and fight me
Please me, tease me, go ahead and leave me

Bend me
Break me
Anyway you need me
As long as I want you baby it's all right

Bend me
Break me
Any way you need me
As long as I want you baby it's all right

Insurance

[Alomex]

To continue growing long term Airbnb needs to become an insurance carrier making renters whole if something like this happens. EBay growth stalled when fraud became rampant. If Ebay had agreed to become a centralized third party with insurance and clearing services, i.e. a true clearing house they would be right now the size of WalMart.

The insurance plan is all about the details. Start by charging a credit card security deposit of $1000. Then charge a one time joining fee of $100 as well as an insurance fee of $15 per day for the first 50 days, going down to $5 for the next 100 and finally $1 thereafter. Then have a high deductible for renters, around $1000, since the landlord assumes responsibility for minor damages. If all the renters did is break a dish, tough luck, it happens, but something like the case above would definitely be covered.

Re:Insurance

[vlm]

To continue growing long term Airbnb needs to become an insurance carrier making renters whole if something like this happens. EBay growth stalled when fraud became rampant. If Ebay had agreed to become a centralized third party with insurance and clearing services, i.e. a true clearing house they would be right now the size of WalMart.

The insurance plan is all about the details. Start by charging a credit card security deposit of $1000. Then charge a one time joining fee of $100 as well as an insurance fee of $15 per day for the first 50 days, going down to $5 for the next 100 and finally $1 thereafter. Then have a high deductible for renters, around $1000, since the landlord assumes responsibility for minor damages. If all the renters did is break a dish, tough luck, it happens, but something like the case above would definitely be covered.

Won't work, rental liability is infinite, or at least infinite compared to your numbers. Every "upside down" house in the country would get rented and torched. Which is a lot of losses. Maybe if you charged $50K per rental and hired the local fire department to park an engine in front of the house overnight...

Re:Insurance

[Alomex]

Won't work, rental liability is infinite,

Oh please.This is BS. Replacement value for a rental property is around $500K max. Last I checked that is much smaller than infinity. Also, this is no different than regular household insurance, just at a much higher rate. So not only it would work, it would likely be a profit center too.

Re:Insurance

[vlm]

Won't work, rental liability is infinite,

Oh please.This is BS. Replacement value for a rental property is around $500K max. Last I checked that is much smaller than infinity. Also, this is no different than regular household insurance, just at a much higher rate. So not only it would work, it would likely be a profit center too.

What if one of the renters kids is in the building when it gets torched and there's no fire detector or extinguisher, and "everyone knows" the side door sticks so use the front or back, blah blah.

Also, this is no different than regular household insurance, just at a much higher rate.

Not just commission/fee but also higher rate of torching / Animal House style frat parties / copper wire and pipe "recycling".

I think we agree the rate would be higher; I think high enough that it would be way beyond uneconomic; We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

Re:Insurance

[Alomex]

What if one of the renters kids is in the building when it gets torched and there's no fire detector or extinguisher, and "everyone knows" the side door sticks so use the front or back, blah blah.

There is no need for third party liability coverage. Likely the landlord would not be liable either, though it is hard to say given than in America nearly all lawsuits are allowed to prosper.

Re:How'd 19 y.o. tweaker w/ warrent rent from AirB

[Anonymous Coward]

they do not check people. probably because if they did, they would become liable for missing things.

pretty much same with that one story where some guy asked why google doesn't make a "google for kids". most likely once again liability.

checking things may make you have only 1 in 100 things go bad instead of 10 in 100. but that means you could get sued for that 1 in 100. and lets face it, many ignorant people are suehappy these days.

Re:Brilliant business model preying on gullible tw

[vlm]

Let me get this straight. The gimmick is you rent out your place to a total stranger, you don't even meet them face-to-face, and expect them not to run away with all your phat loot ? Moronic. Hotels don't trust them anywhere near as much.

Everyone is focusing on the moronity of renting to, basically, an "AC" because of THIS story. What I wonder is if the renters get to (legally) learn about the owners; are the owners ACs from the point of view of the renters?

I can see four business models where the owner is a crook:

1) House happens to burn down (arson) while renter is present so presumably the owner can not be blamed. Sucks if the renter dies in the fire; then again that makes it more "authentic".

2) House has a "big brother" style camera / videorecording infrastructure, including/especially in the bedrooms and showers. And the owner prefers to rent to attractive young people, perhaps by being on the beach or near a college campus, or maybe kids play equipment in backyard is used as a lure, etc.

3) So, someone is visiting, probably with stuff worth stealing, and someone happens to have their full itinerary, and a spare house key... Would be a shame if their laptop gets stolen... Consider a young woman and someone knows her schedule and knows she is completely alone and also has a key to her bedroom and has some bad intentions...

4) Its actually a grow op / drop house, what if the cops decide to show up that night? Is the visitor part of the gang and laundering their money, or not?

VCs

[rafe.kettler]

Who gave these guys who have only been around for a few short years $112 million? Who valued a startup at $1 billion?

Don't these people know that they're going to lose their money? The popularity of any of these services is incredibly ephemeral.One thing goes wrong and no one ever forgets.

Re:Brilliant business model preying on gullible tw

[Anonymous Coward]

How long till any of these show up on CSI: Law & Order? It's just a matter of time, after all.

airBNB patent portfolio

[dtmos]

Whats [sic] their patent portfolio look like?

After a quick search on the USPTO web site, there are no issued patents or published patent applications assigned to "airBNB" or "Airbed and Breakfast." Of the founding team, Nathan Blecharczyk, Brian Chesky, and Joe Gebbia, there is design patent (not utility patent, mind you) D540,097, "Portable seat cushion," listing a "Joseph Gibbia" as inventor, and assigned to "Joe Gibbia." Other than that, I couldn't find any issued patents or published patent applications associated with the founding team, either.

Of course, patent applications are published 18 months after they are filed, so it's possible they have some applications in the works of which we are not aware.

Re:airBNB patent portfolio

[vlm]

Of course, patent applications are published 18 months after they are filed, so it's possible they have some applications in the works of which we are not aware.

So nothing public. Of course submarine patents are not lunch recipes or navy-related.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_patent

It seems odd that they're doing something "new" but haven't publicly filed anything legal WRT their "new" stuff. The complete lack of defensive portfolio is in itself suspicious.

Ist rule of renting

[Registered Coward v2]

Never rent out a property you are emotional invested in, and never get emotionally invested in rental property. If you do, even normal wear and tear becomes troubling - because "you would have been more careful since it's yours..."

While most renters are decent people, things get broken, disappear - it's part of the rental business. Sometimes, it;s just down right funny - I had a renter take a $2 shower curtain from a vacation rental. As long as they didn't trash the place (beyond the deposit) and paid on time I was happy. This poor lady's case illustrates the danger of renting property you also use regularly. It 's not her fault, but unless you kno and trust a renter don't leave any of your stuff their and don't violate rule 1 at any time.

Re:Ist rule of renting

[TheRaven64]

It's also worth checking whether you are allowed to let the property. Most mortgages that are not explicitly buy-to-let loans do not allow the property to be rented out unless you specifically request permission from the bank. If you rent them without the bank's permission, then this may violate the terms of the mortgage and they can require you to repay the full mortgage sum immediately.

Re:Ist rule of renting

[couchslug]

Best post in the thread. People who have never been landlords often have no clue.

Re:How'd 19 y.o. tweaker w/ warrent rent from AirB

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they don't do checks themselves- and then don't allow anyone to do the checks on their own. Quite simply, AirBNB is needing and has the ensuing PR nightmare coming to them. I've a bit of sympathy for the lady (Only a smidge...this is a, "should've known better" moment...) and absolutely NONE for the company here.

$112MM

[nicodoggie]

$112 Mega Millions is a lot of money...

Re:$112MM

[TheRaven64]

It's a mix of arabic and roman numerals. MM is two thousand, so this is $112 * 2000, or $114,000.

Re:Brilliant business model preying on gullible tw

[vlm]

LOL more like how long until they show up on Fark with a "Florida" tag, in real life

Rent your home to a stranger

[SilverJets]

Well what the fark would you expect to happen?

If you are going to do this, at the very least buy a second place and fill it with furniture and stuff you have zero attachment to.

Why subletting is illegal in most apt leases...

[Anonymous Coward]

Now you know why...

Because the Apt manager doesn't get the chance to vet the new leasers. You get jerks like this that make it hard for everyone.

Re:Brilliant business model preying on gullible tw

[Aquitaine]

Airbnb falsely make people feel safer than Craigslist and the current PR mess is complicating that.

The only people who are 'made' to feel safer by what is essentially nothing more than a matching service are people who feel that their apartment has 'energy' that is affected by 'burning sage' in the first place. San Francisco has a tremendous concentration of such people.

My heart goes out to this lady, but to make it to 29 years old and not perform due diligence on ANYBODY who is going to have unmonitored access to your home is the definition of irresponsible. 'Well, Airbnb wouldn't give me that information.' That didn't upset you at the time! If some company wants to rent out my apartment and isn't going to tell me who they're renting it to, then the correct response is 'no thank you,' no matter how spiffy their web site is or how friendly their customer service people are.

We love the Lulz...

[Grog6]

Idiots on the web; film on youtube, 24/7/365. :)

Re:Brilliant business model preying on gullible tw

[SecurityGuy]

Let me get this straight. The gimmick is you rent out your place to a total stranger, you don't even meet them face-to-face, and expect them not to run away with all your phat loot ? Moronic

I have to agree. The concept of renting your place out while you're not using it isn't moronic, but the concept of renting your place out filled with your valuables, irreplaceable and otherwise, and a trove of identity stealing documents is really, really stupid.

Re:so what

[couchslug]

Because this isn't a technology news site and the idea of "voluntary jeopardy" is delectable.

We can rightly regard the victim as a fool and feel superior.

What is really crazy

[Anonymous Coward]

What is really crazy is that this company just got a new VC round of $112 million dollars. How on earth someone would value this company at ~$1 billion is beyond me.

Airbnb fails at business basics

[Thad_McIlroy]

This start-up horror story is what my colleagues call an "extra-vivid example" -- writ large to gain our attention. What it illustrates is that big money is chasing companies that haven't addressed the basics of running their business. The EJ story is at its heart a public relations failure (as a lesson). My story (http://thefutureofpublishing.com/2011/07/airbnb-and-the-comfort-of-strangers/) illustrates that Airbnb's reservation system doesn't work, there are tons of useless postings, the inn-keepers are amateurs, and that Airbnb's customer service fails in routine matters.

Re:Airbnb fails at business basics

[Hognoxious]

What it illustrates is that big money is chasing companies that haven't addressed the basics of running their business.

I was trying to tidy up my "office", which has mutated into a junk room, and among a heap of paperbacks I found Boo Hoo.

Seems I misoverestimated people's intelligence. I figured shit repeats at maybe a twenty year cycle. It's not even ten. Jeez.

Isn't this the same as...

[Anonymous Coward]

..."will house any homeless and/or broke and destitute individual as long as you have public library internet access."

The landlord and the tenant aren't even allowed

[maghrebines]

The landlord and the tenant aren't even allowed to communicate directly until contracts are signed; either tenant and/or landlord pay the agent a fee and the agent does all the checks before this happens.

Airbnb Is Toast, Unless...

[cmholm]

You make a good point. A minute or two with Google suggests that the main thing Airbnb provides over Craigslist/Couch Surfing is a nicer site and a (presumably) more upscale stock of abodes. It also provides the illusion that they've done the legwork you'd expect to do yourself on Craigslist, or as an alternative to the trust-building on CouchsSurfing.

For Airbnb to rebuild the business goodwill they've lost, they'll need to 1) provide the 24/7 phone support EJ suggested, 2) provide some sort of bonding for when things go south, and 3) DO the upfront work they don't let their clients do. That's going to cost money. The investors can either spend it, and thereby buy back the lost goodwill, or they can pack it up.

Most likely they are under 30

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

I bet the renter is under 30 years old and I'll tell you why. I've noticed something that really concerns me about people under 30 years old. For the record, I'm over 40. I'm not saying that all under 30s are like this. I'm not sure that even most of them are like this. And there are people over 30 and even over 40 who are like this, but not so many. But one thing I consistently see from people under 30 is a belief that all internet transactions are safe and they simply cannot ever be cheated. I see this belief in a lot of the under 30 crowd that Craigslist is 100% safe and guaranteed by the folks at Craigslist but there's no need to worry because it is quite simply impossible to be cheated on it. Of course Craigslist is not at all guaranteed (the site says so) and you can easily search and find stories of Craigslist scams on the internet. So my guess is that the renter has the same delusional attitude and it never occurred to her that bad people might take advantage of the situation.

Air Bnb User

[movbxax]

My wife and I used Air Bnb to rent an extra room and bath in the Los Angeles area. We had about 50 guests in a two year period. The experence was wonderful and we met many people from all over the world, many that we are still friends with. We were living in the house, but often we were out, sometimes out of town for a few days, with my guitars lying around, while the guests had the keys. There was never any problems. We have since sold the house and moved on.

Re:Air Bnb User

[Seumas]

If I left my front door unlocked and nothing happened for two months, but then on around day 70, someone walked right in and robbed me, people would still say I was an idiot for it. Even if I said "but nothing happened the first 69 days!".

I would say you are statistically lucky, should count yourself fortunate, and avoid the unnecessary risk in the future (at least the "while we were out of town" part).

Re:Air Bnb User

[movbxax]

All of our Air BnB guests were film makers, musicians, computer programmers, or parents visiting their children in Los Angeles (Silverlake). Everyone that uses Air BnB has to put up a profile and a photograph. They also need a valid credit card that is checked before they even contact the renters. Our guests could easily be found on the internet based on their profile. I think Air BnB is getting a bad rap here. They are great people. The perp was caught so fast probably because of the info Air BnB had ahead of time.

About the company is only video

[codegen]

What is it with these new companies who only post videos when explaining what it is that they do? This is about the third company that I have encountered that only provides a video. I can read a lot faster than they can speak. Put the video up front for the illiterate, but at least provide those of use that can read with the details in an usable form.

How is this different?

[Anonymous Coward]

You rented your house to someone you didn't know and got screwed... do you think that didn't happen before you were born?

Couch Surfing

[Anonymous Coward]

I see a lot of negatives up above here, but as a couch surfer I can say that we have a system that helps vet potential visitors and builds an awesome community at the same time. At this very moment I am surfing with my wife and 8 year old son in the home of a fellow surfer in Holland while we
1) move from China to the US
2) visit family in Holland
3)enjoy a relaxed and happy holiday

The CS system builds trust and social connections in ways that facebook could not even begin to: face 2 face interaction and real friendships. Until this apartment sharing system learn to build a similar system that builds community and trust nothing like it will succeed. When it does it will work.

Re:Brilliant business model preying on gullible tw

[billcopc]

This.