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Hackers Could Open Convicts' Cells In Prisons

Hugh Pickens writes "Some of the same vulnerabilities that the Stuxnet superworm used to sabotage centrifuges at a nuclear plant in Iran exist in the country's top high-security prisons where programmable logic controllers (PLCs) control locks on cells and other facility doors. Researchers have already written three exploits for PLC vulnerabilities they found. 'Most people don't know how a prison or jail is designed; that's why no one has ever paid attention to it,' says John Strauchs, who plans to discuss the issue and demonstrate an exploit against the systems at the DefCon hacker conference next week. 'How many people know they're built with the same kind of PLC used in centrifuges?' A hacker would need to get his malware onto the control computer either by getting a corrupt insider to install it via an infected USB stick or send it via a phishing attack aimed at a prison staffer, since some control systems are also connected to the internet, Strauchs claims. 'Bear in mind, a prison security electronic system has many parts beyond door control such as intercoms, lighting control, video surveillance, water and shower control, and so forth,' adds Strauchs. 'Once we take control of the PLC we can do anything (PDF). Not just open and close doors. We can absolutely destroy the system. We could blow out all the electronics.'"

203 comments

  1. Internet? by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why are the prison control systems connected to the Internet? Who thought that was a good idea?

    --
    Palm trees and 8
    1. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      They aren't.... install it via an infected USB-stick is what the summary says...

    2. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nce some control systems are also connected to the internet,

    3. Re:Internet? by maxume · · Score: 2, Informative

      And what does the other half of *that same sentence* say?

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:Internet? by bejiitas_wrath · · Score: 0

      And I bet they run Windows XP as well...

      --
      liberare massarum ex ignorantia, clausa descendit molestie.
    5. Re:Internet? by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      "Since SOME control systems are connected to the internet".

    6. Re:Internet? by ccguy · · Score: 1

      RTFSPOTS

      (read the fucking second part of the sentence)

    7. Re:Internet? by maxume · · Score: 1

      So you think the 'some' really changes the question betterunixthanunix is asking?

      I think they were asking why any prison control system would be connected to the internet, not asking why they all are.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    8. Re:Internet? by hvm2hvm · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm more curious why do they need to control everything from 1 computer? What's wrong with a simple keylock or if that's too 'medieval' for you, a standalone code lock? Also, why are the showers and everything electronically controlled? That's something most homes don't have.

      --
      ics
    9. Re:Internet? by Nick_13ro · · Score: 1

      I'm more curious why do they need to control everything from 1 computer? What's wrong with a simple keylock or if that's too 'medieval' for you, a standalone code lock? Also, why are the showers and everything electronically controlled? That's something most homes don't have.

      I imagine it's for contingencies involving inmates taking over the prison. The ability to leave them without water would be quite a decent leverage against them, don't you think ?

    10. Re:Internet? by vlm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm more curious why do they need to control everything from 1 computer? What's wrong with a simple keylock or if that's too 'medieval' for you, a standalone code lock? Also, why are the showers and everything electronically controlled? That's something most homes don't have.

      With more prisoners in the system than the rest of the world combined, for profit private prisons automate to save money. That makes them cheaper that govt prisons, which forces the govt prisons to automate or else all their "guests" will get transferred to "save money by using the free market". In a race to the bottom, there is no opting out.

      By controlling the showers you can stop people from F-ing around during lockdown... If the guards have to go in to break up a fight, at least the water is off.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    11. Re:Internet? by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      most of them are not. but that's irrelevant, as most have network nodes across the entire prison. it would really have to be a targeted attack anyways, as you'd need to know which plc's they're using and so forth. but the point is, it's just couple of grand in hardware after you know what's in use in that specific prison.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    12. Re:Internet? by Nidi62 · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm more curious why do they need to control everything from 1 computer? What's wrong with a simple keylock or if that's too 'medieval' for you, a standalone code lock?

      It allows them to open up(or close/lock) whole rows of cells, or a single cell from a secure, central location. This way, if person is able to get out of his cell, he can't simply run down to the end of the row and flip a switch. Also, think about how Sean Connery got out in The Rock.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    13. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol,A whole lot of them are in fact connected to the internet, by also being in contact/ communication with officers terminals and office computers.

      Source: An Ex-Con

    14. Re:Internet? by DarkOx · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well there is a little more than to running a modern prison then just sequestering and feeding the inmates. We have decided that we care about their health and safety as well.

      In the event its necessary to evacuate the prison, say because there is a fire or something, central control of the locks would be very valuable. Much easier for the guards to grab the shotguns and rifles and say "Alright we are evacuating to the yard, the doors are going to unlock all of you then step out hands in the air were we can see them and form a line." than it would be for them to go through the cell block unlocking each cell or row of cells at time.

      At the very least that would be a dangerous situation for the guards, already somewhat chaotic they don't want to have their backs turned to other prisoners while they focus on operating a lock mechanism rather than their surroundings. I should expect the folks we keep locked in high security detention facilities are likely to be the sort that would try to take advantage of an unusual situation which may arise, and being able to lock and unlock all doors at the same time is one of the many ways prions try and mitigate that risk.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    15. Re:Internet? by hairyfeet · · Score: 2

      Well if we didn't have as another poster put it "more people in prison than the rest of the world combined' (not sure if that is true but frankly wouldn't surprise me) and create criminals by giving folks records for dope which ensures they will NEVER be able to have a real job, well maybe the guards wouldn't be having to deal with teeming masses of prisoners in an emergency. Maybe when the whole system collapses like a house of cards thanks to blowing $$$$$ on 3 wars while giving tax breaks we'll start acting like sensible human beings and realize that "sin" crimes belong in the pulpit not the law books.

      As for TFA WHAT THE FUCK? Why in the name of all that is good is ANY of the systems hooked to the net? What, the warden can't live without YouTube? If there was a system that should never ever in a million years be let loose on the net it is THAT one, as every troll on the planet would just looove to open all the cells "just for the LULZ". But what do I expect when prisons are now for profit human processing units instead of what they were supposed to be, which was a way for the state to keep the violent away from the rest of society.

      You know this country is fucked when I look at my local paper and the only places hiring are the prisons and the MickeyDs. This just goes to show the former isn't even run as well as the latter, how fucking sad is that?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    16. Re:Internet? by SwedishChef · · Score: 4, Informative

      The PLCs (and their controllers) form their own network that is not connected to the Internet; it's not even TCP/IP.

      However... the desktop computers that interface with the controllers are often on the Internet because they use the local area network to communicate with both the controllers and get email, surf the web, etc. There is a close connection between the SCADA software on the desktop PC and the PLC so that if a sophisticated attack on that PC is successful then the attacker can have complete control over the PLC system.

      Worse yet... many of the PCs controlling the PLC systems are older versions of Windows because updates are expensive (usually requiring specialists from outside the plant due to the nature of the systems) so people tend to put them off. I've seen lots of desktops running NT, for instance.

      --
      No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
    17. Re:Internet? by houghi · · Score: 1

      Locks can be picked. Keys can be duplicated or stolen . Guards can be bribed to do so. To use them you need to be on the premises
      In some situations not a real nice option.

      Electronic should give a logfile of who did what and when. I can add several layers of security into it. e.g. Level one guard can't open XYZ between 20:00 and 06:00 and 10:00 and 15:00.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    18. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because systems control is cheaper than human control. It's far easier to get one-time purchases approved for equipment than long-term additions to staff. This is seen all the damn time in IT. Can I have a new sysadmin? No. Can I have a new server? Sure, how many do you need?

    19. Re:Internet? by houghi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      To have remote access and that is the easiest way to do it. A leased line would be better.

      The reason to have it remotely is the same reason why access to some banks is done off premises. If there is a hostile situation, you still have control of those doors.

      The National Bank in Antwerp has a two-door entry. The second door only opens when the first door is closed. The person to control the door is not on site. So if he sees that I want to enter and he does not want me to, he can't be physically be forced to do so.

      I also assume that there is not one person who controls that door and there will be protocols as what to do in what situation.

      getting access to the person onsite might be possible. Offsite is a whole different layer.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    20. Re:Internet? by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      They aren't.... install it via an infected USB-stick is what the summary says...

      So if the guards play games, then the prisoners can too. Someone sent a stick for "Breakout."

    21. Re:Internet? by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      I still say why are any of these connected to a commodity OS as well.

      You don't *need* it to be online directly, nor do you need it to be tied to any specific commodity OS at this stage of the game. In the old days this was the case. Isolated networks, and dedicated operating systems were the norm ( including the monitoring systems ).

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    22. Re:Internet? by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Sure, computer control makes total sense and i agree is pretty much required for safety. So does monitoring. But designing a system where a control component has direct outside access is just dumb.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    23. Re:Internet? by JohannesJ · · Score: 1

      Yes :but the way I see it The mistake is that the USB stick isn’t unique for every device . Having PLcs USB boot and run in a standard manner is Excellent for development, but carrying that direct to a Mission critical product very bad, Stuxnet wouldn’t likely work if devices weren’t using standards . An easy fix might be to "exclusive OR" every y byte of the USB stick with some number and Format it with a proprietary method , known only to that device

    24. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are the prison control systems connected to the Internet? Who thought that was a good idea?

      Never mind RFFA, did you even read the summary? Perhaps this sentence fragment: A hacker would need to get his malware onto the control computer either by getting a corrupt insider to install it via an infected USB stick ...

      This is how you break so-called "airwalls": by using removable media. This is also how the US DoD got nailed with Conficker (aka W32.Silly/SillyFDC) back in 2008.

    25. Re:Internet? by tfigment · · Score: 2

      Not completely true. ProfiNet, Modbus/TCP, EtherNet/IP, FINS, BACnet are all communication over ethernet tcp/ip stacks to the scada system and capable of issuing write commands. But then again perhaps prisons are using DCS style hardwired systems. Now the control system operating drives, switches, sensors or whatever are generally going to use some other system like Modbus, CAN, I2C, ... but even then EtherCAT, EtherNet/IP are industrially used for plcs to talk to drives and sensors if you want.

      The scada system capable of controlling the PLCs should be isolated from the internet but I've seen more than my fair share of the the other. I'm sure the prisons are more paranoid and heck there are probably 500 different contractors writing the control logic in 1500 different ways out there so if one were hacked it would like be an isolated incident. Stuxnet exploited the fact that the centrifuges used a common geometry layout so it new what addresses corresponded to what and could manipulate that. It was still super clever though.

      The biggest problem is that most of those ethernet protocols used in scada have zero authentication or security around it. If you can talk to it you can do a lot of bad bad things without any passwords. Usually the HMI is responsible for authentication but who says you have to use the HMI like stuxnet. They may try to protect the control logic with passwords but usually that is just for show in the systems that support it and would not withstand any dedicated effort for very long.

      I'm more worried about DNP3 substations than prisons since power companies tend to have a unified system and spread out over long distances though they know that.

    26. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone said earlier on ./, it doesn't have to be a USB stick... your USB mouse/keyboard/anything *could* potentially have something within them that compromises the system.

      Here's a hypothetical scenario: you create a "fake" keyboard that opens up a DOS box, dumps binary data into a file, then runs that file. You then order 1000 USB keyboards from Amazon, disassemble them, wire'em up in a way that the keyboard would appear to function like a "keyboard", except for those few times when it "opens up a DOS box, dumps binary data into a file" (say when there's no activity on the keyboard for a few hours and it's nighttime). You seal keyboard boxes, setup Amazon account to sell those exact same keyboards for $5 less than what you paid for them. Yes, they'll sell.

      Now you got a virus on most of those 1000 computers (and if you're lucky, a few hundred networks). Note that at this point what OS you're running is irrelevant (open a shell prompt and run a shell script, etc.). You only need 1 of them to be someplace interesting (say if there's a 0.1% change that the keyboard will end up in a military/prison/powerplant place...). Cost of such an attack is amazingly low.

    27. Re:Internet? by dwillden · · Score: 2

      A manual control valve outside the secure areas would be the far better option. Electronic switches can fail, even if not from being hacked. A manually turned valve wheel has a much lower failure rate.

      The real question is why do any of these controls get connected to the internet. And is automation really the best option, would simple toggle switches not be a safer option. Fewer fail points and vulnerabilities. We seem to want to automate everything (which I can fully understand) yet those automated controls keep finding themselves attached to the net which then leads to the question should we have really so thoroughly automated these things. Why are any critical control switches for any facility (prison, power plant, power grid, etc...) connected to the net? I know the summary said "some" but why are any connected. And why do the other controls need usb ports? I have a hard time believing those cell door controllers need frequent updates (or ever need them if properly designed). Go ahead automate it. Design the system when building the prison, write the code and test it, then install it on the controller mem chips then install the system. It should be good to go from then on. If you think you might somehow need to update the software on these critical systems, use a non-standard connector. Use a serial port, and let the warden keep a USB to serial connector in his safe. Nothing is ever going to be totally secure, but it looks like these systems were designed with zero thought as to why and how they should be secured, which is funny when dealing with a prison security system.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    28. Re:Internet? by dwillden · · Score: 1

      A simple manual valve wheel outside the secure area will take care of this, with far fewer potential fail points.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    29. Re:Internet? by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      If there is a hostile situation *and your remote connection hasn't been compromised*, you still have control of those doors.

      Fixed that for you.

    30. Re:Internet? by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      I'm more worried about DNP3 substations than prisons since power companies tend to have a unified system and spread out over long distances though they know that.

      I've said it on many occasions that a single person with a 4wd vehicle, and a high powered rifle with a scope could do more damage to the power system in a short time and do it more easily than anyone with a keyboard and a computer.

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    31. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's the price you pay for working in a prison. Be nice, and maybe there won't be a riot. Be rude, and well, you take your chances.

    32. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One of the reasons that newer prisons control everything from one place is that it makes prisoner movement easier. A keylock is reliable, but if a prisoner overpowers a guard and swipes the keys, it makes it easy to turn a pod or cellblock into a riot. This is especially true in maximum security where inmates have nothing to lose. In a setting where cell openings are controlled from a tower, overpowering a guard does nothing except ensure 10-20 more years of a stay, most of it likely in the hole.

      Showers and even prisoner toilets (in some prisons, only three flushes are allowed in an hour) are controlled to prevent prisoners from flooding the tier. Same with drain valves -- if a CO suspects an inmate possesses something, they remotely close the drain valve and disable water so they can't flush it down the toilet.

    33. Re:Internet? by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Why are the prison control systems connected to the Internet? Who thought that was a good idea?

      They are designed to operate without a connection to the internet. However, the computers used to control them run Windows on general purpose hardware.

      Which means it is possible to connect them to the internet.

      If you ask me, the designer of the system should utilize embedded hardware booted from flash media and basically read-only to the end user. Any reporting/data collection/data storage should be done by a second system connected to the control system over a NIC dedicated for that purpose.

    34. Re:Internet? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      A simple manual valve wheel outside the secure area will take care of this, with far fewer potential fail points.

      Doesn't look as cool as a couple of guys in a room with a bunch of computers (running rooted XP) and video monitors. Valves don't sex up a Power Point presentation. Control rooms do.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    35. Re:Internet? by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 3, Informative

      With more prisoners in the system than the rest of the world combined,

      That's just NOT true. That's a lie, a calumny, a vile piece of propaganda.

      We just have more prisoners (2.3 million) than China (No. 2, at 1.650 million) and Russia (No. 3, at 806,000) and India combined (No. 5, at 384753).
      source

    36. Re:Internet? by mysidia · · Score: 2

      Use a serial port, and let the warden keep a USB to serial connector in his safe.

      Non-standard interfaces are more expensive. USB2.0 ports are high-speed serial interfaces. Older interfaces are inappropriate for large transfers.
      Simply not providing any user access to the interfaces would be sufficient, however. They could use a NIC interface for performing updates, however.

      The machines that run the control systems should be industrial grade equipment, kept in a locked cabinet, never able to be touched by the controller, to dissuade connecting them to the internet.

      Preferably separate from the workstations that actually provide a user interface to the control system. Those could connect to the control system over a private control LAN, and communicate using encrypted signed datagrams that must have a TTL of 254, for the controller to process them.

      The user could be dissuaded from connecting to the internet by requiring that the workstation IP address be issued by the controller via DHCP with an active lease to establish a connection over switch port links authenticated using 802.1X wired authentication, and providing a controller IP address as default gateway, with any unexplained packets sent towards internet hosts blackholed and designed to activate a tampering alarm.

      In addition workstations designed to control the controller should be in a locked cabinet. With no general purpose software installed on them, and only approved maintenance procedures or change controls provided by the control device manufacturer/support company permitted.

    37. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was doing inspections on a SCADA upgrade at a municipal water filtration plant, the master computer was a top of the line custom built rig, with a custom usb to serial setup and all of the coms to the conrol systems ran over serial to Win98 systems that had Win95 logos on the cases.

    38. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess that the hackers will have to leave a bunch of floppy disks laying around in the employee parking lot. Oh cool! Free floppy.

      Having worked with PLCs and Scada systems in the past, it wouldn't be hard to have the PLC doing all kinds of nifty things, but the SCADA system in the back office showing everything as normal.

      But a lot of PLCs do use Ethernet. I worked with a lot of Allen Bradley stuff, and PLC5e's have Ethernet. The 5/250 Pyramid Integrator has the most expensive Ethernet port known to man. The 10 mb card was around $10,000 and then you need a MAU that cost a couple of hundred bucks. Then it needed a BOOTP server to get an ethernet address. Good times.

    39. Re:Internet? by mr_lizard13 · · Score: 1

      They are.

      One of the prison officers was seen checking his Gmail account on the same computer running the prison control software - that's what TFA says.

      It even mentions in the summary that some of the control systems are connected to the Internet.

      --
      "We live in a global world" - Harvey Pitt, former Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman
    40. Re:Internet? by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      A simple manual valve wheel outside the secure area will take care of this, with far fewer potential fail points.

      Yes, but then we would have to hire an additional unionized state employee, with full benefits, just to turn the valve when told to do so. You may laugh, but the various prison guard unions would almost certainly insist that turning the valve is not part of their job description and requires an additional full time staff member who's job description includes this duty. Perhaps now you begin to understand the appeal of an automated system, even a complicated one, from the standpoint of cash-strapped governments and those who are ultimately footing the bill (i.e. the taxpayers).

    41. Re:Internet? by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      Having said that I really do hope that the EEs who know the system best (IE the ones who actually keep the grid running) have removed line of sight from the most vulnerable junctions.

      A simple question for you to consider: How do you hide transmission lines from line-of-site?

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    42. Re:Internet? by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 1

      Oh sure, after they spent all that money getting moved over to Windows ME you think they are going to upgrade AGAIN?

      --
      You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
    43. Re:Internet? by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      The person to control the door is not on site. So if he sees that I want to enter and he does not want me to, he can't be physically be forced to do so.

      I have a gun to someone's head. If you don't open the door, I'll shoot them. You will watch on the camera. I will repeat this until the door opens.

      The real question is: How much of a stomach do you have for watching people die because you won't push a button? Will you be able to live with yourself for the rest of your life seeing visions of their brain meats smeared across the wall?

      The problem with geeks is they never consider the human angle, just the technical one.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    44. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually...TCP/IP is very common in factory networks and is built-in to many modern PLC's. Even most 30 year old PLC systems I've come across have had ethernet capability added because it makes maintaining them so much easier. And you would be surprised at how many of those systems ARE connected to the internet, even if they aren't supposed to be, so that the techs don't have to go in when they get a call at 3am.

    45. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah I can just see all the furious inmates now, standing around waiting for the water to come back on so they could drop the soap all innocently..

    46. Re:Internet? by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>We just have more prisoners (2.3 million) than China (No. 2, at 1.650 million) and Russia (No. 3, at 806,000) and India combined (No. 5, at 384753).
      source

      By your own source, the US figure includes people outside the "normal" prison system, but, say, the China figures do not include it. If you include the extra 650,000 not counted in China's 1.65M, then they're tied with the US in 1st place.

      Isn't it fun when people actually read your references?

    47. Re:Internet? by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      My My, you're just full of excuses today.

    48. Re:Internet? by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      But China also has 1.3 billion people in it, whereas the US has a bit over 300 million. So there numbers in prison shouldn't be anywhere near each other...

    49. Re:Internet? by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>My My, you're just full of excuses today.

      Hey, don't blame me if someone checks your numbers.

      It'd also be fair to mention that between 10%-30% of the US prison population aren't actually from the US.

    50. Re:Internet? by Adam+Appel · · Score: 1

      Thank goodness prisons are not flammable. It would be interesting to see evacuation plans for a supermax in the case of a bio or chem attack (for the geo area, not with the prison as a target). I would guess those plans are, er, under lock and key.

      --
      They come in the dark, only in the darkest.
    51. Re:Internet? by gtall · · Score: 1

      Authoritarian (at least the stable) governments generally have less crime than democracies. However, the Chinese are gaining on the U.S. in terms of organized crime. Also, there's whole class of white collar crime in the U.S. which is standard operating procedure in China.

      Now, what point was it you were attempting to make?

    52. Re:Internet? by vlm · · Score: 1

      That person would have to risk getting caught.

      Caught doing what? Surely not this:

      a single person with a 4wd vehicle, and a high powered rifle with a scope

      That would raise eyebrows in downtown Manhattan or maybe Norway now, but around here that is a standard issue hunter, a protected species, herd size measured in the hundreds of thousands each fall, no kidding. Mostly they spend "deer hunting time" drinking beer but they have been known to take pot shots at aerial fiber; I assume they occasionally miss our fiber and hit the electric co lines, insulators, and transformers. The big high voltage towers are supposed to be much more fun to hit than the little distribution lines. You're in their territory when you see road signs full of bullet holes, and trucks with big spotlights (for "shining")

      It's not limited to good ole boys in the back woods. In certain multicultural / ethnic areas, every new years day morning is spent on aerial fiber damage caused by shooting into the air at midnight. Charming little tradition they have, amongst others. Glad I live many miles away.

      Every employer I've ever had who owns aerial fiber has had these kind of problems.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    53. Re:Internet? by vlm · · Score: 1

      Having said that I really do hope that the EEs who know the system best (IE the ones who actually keep the grid running) have removed line of sight from the most vulnerable junctions.

      A simple question for you to consider: How do you hide transmission lines from line-of-site?

      The problem is you pop a hole in the bottom of an oil cooled transformer and as fast as the oil can run out, it'll overheat and shut down, or overheat and catch fire. Every hunting season at a previous job we used to lose power to a repeater site or two from that form of recreation.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    54. Re:Internet? by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      I tend to think the same thing when I see bank teller behind bulletproof glass.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    55. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who works in a company that does it the other way around, I think I'd rather have the extra servers.

    56. Re:Internet? by Chardansearavitriol · · Score: 1

      First off all: Are you really that ignorant? Sorry that was the best way i could put this.Have you seen a modern high security prison? You know, for people who murder, people who rape, and people who smoke pot? kinda have to coordinate that stuff when everyone in your prison is a murderer and hates every other faction in the prison, also murderers. Still, I'm hoping this succeeds. It would be better for us to shut down all our prisons and releas eall the prisoners, than to force such a horrid existance on an innocent person. As we have murderd innocent people, stolen decades of their life. And yes, im serious. Those jerks who commit crimes are jerks. When we execute or punish people who did no wrong, we should feel horrible. But its marked up to collateral damage...I like to ask people (my parents and boyfriend) "So, You'd be okay with me being executed for a crime i did not commit and you know i did not commit, because the system works most of the time?" Ive always been good with heartstrings. Though it makes for a very messy rendition of cat's cradle, and no one i play with has made it to the end. I wish I could rememeb rwhat my original point for this comment was though.

    57. Re:Internet? by Kittenman · · Score: 1

      >>My My, you're just full of excuses today.

      Hey, don't blame me if someone checks your numbers.

      It'd also be fair to mention that between 10%-30% of the US prison population aren't actually from the US.

      Other countries are offshoring their prisons to the US? Excellent...

      --
      "The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
    58. Re:Internet? by DrBoumBoum · · Score: 1

      And why THE FUCK are they using a Windows OS for this kind of system? I mean controlling a nuclear enrichment facility or a prison security with Windows XP? What kind of marketing bullshit did they use to seal that deal?

    59. Re:Internet? by kermidge · · Score: 1

      "By controlling the showers you can stop people from F-ing around during lockdown...[sic]"

      Sorry, that's just plain wrong.

      By definition, during lockdown there is no one in the showers. A lockdown is precisely that: all prisoners are in their assigned, locked cells, no exceptions.

      Pod COs as a rule do not break up fights. They call the ready force (usually fellow pod officers who lock down their own spaces and come running; the only times I've seen the "tac squad" appear was to remove a prisoner from his cell - sometimes via multiple Taser hits and a restraint board. Generally, there are no fights, per se.

      The only two I saw were scuffles where the CO came around his desk, went into the showers (no cameras there, btw), once with taser in hand, and either told the guys to quit or asked if they wanted some juice. The participants were later sent to isolation aka detention cells.

      This was all in max. at a county lockup. Second best pod in the place, excepting maybe the trusty pod.

      To the original point, where I was all functions were or could be controlled from central command; any control station could issue emergency stuff; pod stations generally did the daily stuff. All access to and from any space was done by request to central.

      As for hacking the sys, sure, why not? What I saw would need human factor to get the requisite thumb drives to one or more relevant control stations. Have no idea what Internet entry might be possible, but inasmuch as I've known several COs to check their email from the pod station, that might could offer a vector.

    60. Re:Internet? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Why are the prison control systems connected to the Internet? Who thought that was a good idea?

      • (1)Two prisons with a wall in common are getting refurbishment. The decision is made to have one control room for the two prisons (I don't know if this would work where prisons are privatised ; it would certainly work here where only a couple of prisons are privatised). This saves 8 full-time jobs (possibly 12, I don't know the shift/ vacation rotas) between the two prisons. Nothing goes wrong.
      • (2) Two prisons on opposite sides of a street are being refurbished. In the light of (1) above, these now share a control room. There is a dedicated link running on wire under the road.
      • (3) Someone puts a JCB ("back hoe," whatever) through the dedicated link ; while repairs are carried out, a lash-up fix is "engineered" through the Internet.
      • (4) Two jails on opposite sides of a city are being refurbished. In light of the above experiences the decision is made to save another 8 full-time paid staff by linking these over the internet and sharing a control room.

      It's easy to get to strange sounding places without making any strange sounding moves.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    61. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because if something goes horrible wrong they want to be able to lock dwn the whole prison and everything within it without having to go from door to door with a key?

    62. Re:Internet? by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Authoritarian governments generally lock people up who haven't committed crimes more often than democracies.

      And I wasn't making a point.

    63. Re:Internet? by black+soap · · Score: 1

      During a riot, they will leave the showers running so they can run in and get relief from pepper spray, then go back out and rejoin the festivities. Controlling the showers gives them one less tool.

    64. Re:Internet? by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      I still say why are any of these connected to a commodity OS as well.

      You don't *need* it to be online directly, nor do you need it to be tied to any specific commodity OS at this stage of the game. In the old days this was the case. Isolated networks, and dedicated operating systems were the norm ( including the monitoring systems ).

      Name a major SCADA system that doesn't require Windows. Heck, I know some that require very specific versions and service packs or they don't work...

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    65. Re:Internet? by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      I have yet to see a major SCADA system that does not require Windows. It is simply the way things are. We are tied to things like legacy OPC (which uses that mess called DCOM). Some control PC software is so poorly written, it will only run on for example Windows Server 2003 Service Pack 1. And that is from one of the big (nameless - for obvious reasons) companies. The problem is, the cost of re-writing this software is insane. And you'd never justify it to your boss, because it works already.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    66. Re:Internet? by Interfacer · · Score: 1

      Many banks in Belgium (and the Netherlands) at least don't have this set-up anymore. Some do, most don't, in my experience.
      It is not customer friendly to be speaking from behind a fortress wall, and as you say, if a robber starts shooting customers, the bank is off worse than before.

    67. Re:Internet? by Interfacer · · Score: 1

      The DCS system that I use, and those I know of, give you specific version of Windows, service packs, and hotfixes that you must install. Deviate from that list and if you need support or are trying to get something done because they screwed up or had a bad bug, they'll just tell you that it's not their problem because you did not run the recommended configuration. I have seen a vendor argue over the 4th digit of a bios revision number because they could not find a cause for the bug we reported. And the only way we got away with that in the end was that they had documented a valid upgrade path, coming from an earlier software version, in which case that version was allowed.

      My servers run
      Windows 2003 because they say I have to
      Standard edition because they say I have to
      Service pack 2 because they say I have to
      And a handful of hotfixes that come with the software installation disks. Because they say I have to.

      And I will keep running that particular set up until we upgrade to the next version, when we will switch to windows 2008, standard edition, SP whatever, which some hotfixes.

      That is why our network is disconnected from the outside world, all equipment is in locked cabinets, and all computers are in a locked serverroom with kwm going out to the field terminals.

    68. Re:Internet? by Interfacer · · Score: 1

      Windows XP is used for visualization of graphics, opening and closing valves etc.
      The actual control logic as well as all safety monitoring and all the actual dangerous things are handled by dedicated controllers.
      Windows XP is at no point in charge of anything important. Keeping that in mind, it does not matter if you're running MacOS, linux or Windows for the client part.
      No need to get emotional about it.

    69. Re:Internet? by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      Stab in the dark here... Rockwell...?

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    70. Re:Internet? by DrBoumBoum · · Score: 1

      From what I understand the controllers themselves are managed/controlled by Windows, which is how Stuxnet was able to target them. And Stuxnet was able to infiltrate the systems by using the autoplay feature of Windows XP, which is the kind of end-user interface candy that's meant to be helpful to your grandma when you hand her a CD with the wedding photos, not on a industrial system ffs.

    71. Re:Internet? by moortak · · Score: 1

      Riots and other lockdown situations. Your home probably never has hostage situations, stabbings, and the risk of coordinated attacks on the staff.

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    72. Re:Internet? by cusco · · Score: 1

      One guy with a set of keys can be held at knife point and forced to do things like unlock everyone's cell door. In an emergency, such as a fire, one guy with a set of keys CAN'T unlock all the doors in time. Then there's the constant 'two man control' aspect, where if the request to open Cell 215 is not reasonable or authorized another person is running a sanity check on the guard's actions. Plus, it's an order of magnitude more difficult to bribe two guards than it is to bribe one.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    73. Re:Internet? by cusco · · Score: 1

      These are just larger versions of the security and building automation systems you'll find in any enterprise, which is what I install and configure for a living. Up until just a few years ago these systems were controlled by stand-alone computers over RS-232 or RS-485 serial connections with no connectivity to anything else. Often the control computer would run for years without a reboot, since no one on staff had any clue how to bring the system back up again. The only way to upgrade was with a pile of floppies or perhaps a CD if the machine were so equipped. You're right that there has been very little concern about the physical security of the hardware since until very recently that was never a concern, and since this is such a specialized field the same programmers that wrote the original system a decade or two ago are probably still writing all of the updates so program security hasn't been addressed to any depth either.

      Several years ago we (the vendors) got the IT departments involved. My own galvanizing experience was when a customer (hospital) lost its entire access control system because the desktop PC tucked under the janitor's desk started blue screening. Of course there was no database backup because it wasn't on the network. We couldn't put it on the network because there was no antivirus and the database was MSDE with no service packs (remember SQLSlammer?) We got lucky that time, today we insist on customers being responsible for their backups and maintaining the basic integrity of the servers, we insist on server-class machines (more and more frequently VMs), and we're moving off serial connections to IP connections (private VLANs, preferably) as much as possible so that if a link between the server and field hardware goes down someone knowledgeable is available to fix it immediately.

      Like everything else, IT departments vary in their competence. None of our customers have hooked their access control or video monitoring system to the Internet (yet), but a good quarter of them have at-will access to the outside world. It's up to the customer's staff to ensure that their employees aren't browsing porn sites or installing Napster on the systems, and considering the job market out there I'm not surprised that the employees are cooperating pretty well. As always though, the main problem isn't the hardware or the software, it's the wetware.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    74. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The National Bank in Belgium is located in Brussels. The "National Bank" in Antwerp is just an antenna, not the main national bank.

    75. Re:Internet? by AF_Cheddar_Head · · Score: 1

      Wrong and wrong again. The automated systems were pioneered by the commercial prisons as a way to reduce staff headcount. The commercial prisons are usually not unionized (right to work states) so that has no play in it.

    76. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Third link holds the key. Reading is FUNdamental. The PDF is a pretty good paper, answers your question, and is generally worth reading if you are interested in the subject.

    77. Re:Internet? by Jonner · · Score: 1

      Why are the prison control systems connected to the Internet? Who thought that was a good idea?

      I don't think anyone is claiming the systems in prisons that control doors are directly connected to the Internet. AFAIK, Stuxnet attacked machines that were not directly connected to the Internet using several attack vectors to jump between disconnected networks and machines. The only way to absolutely prevent any kind of infection would be to disconnect the target machine from all networks (even local only) and prevent anyone from touching it. Needless to say, such a system wouldn't be very useful.

    78. Re:Internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The PLCs (and their controllers) form their own network that is not connected to the Internet; it's not even TCP/IP.

      However... the desktop computers that interface with the controllers are often on the Internet because they use the local area network to communicate with both the controllers and get email, surf the web, etc. There is a close connection between the SCADA software on the desktop PC and the PLC so that if a sophisticated attack on that PC is successful then the attacker can have complete control over the PLC system.

      Worse yet... many of the PCs controlling the PLC systems are older versions of Windows because updates are expensive (usually requiring specialists from outside the plant due to the nature of the systems) so people tend to put them off. I've seen lots of desktops running NT, for instance.

      NT has a built-in protection from USB keys, infected or otherwise - BSoD.

    79. Re:Internet? by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      What has always surprised me is how quickly everybody took to plugging shit into the Internet. It's a recipe for disaster and one day we will see the folly of it all.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    80. Re:Internet? by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      Interestingly enough, California is a right to work state, and yet we have one of the most pernicious and overpaid prison guards' unions in the entire country. It's to the point now where there are over 100,000 applicants every year for new prison guards, for less than 300 openings each year, because the job pays better than most graduate degrees after only a few years on the job and requires only a 3 month training course with no higher prerequisite qualification than a high school diploma. For example, the highest paid employee in the State of California is a prison surgeon who earns over $700,000 per year. There's just one problem; he's so incompetent that he lost his license to actually perform surgeries due to malpractice. But that's not even the best part. They cannot fire this guy because the employment review board (ever heard of one of those in the private sector?) says that while his medical skills are poor, he wasn't negligent so they have to keep him on so that he can shuffle papers (he doesn't even see patients anymore). It's insane, but hey that's California for you.

    81. Re:Internet? by AF_Cheddar_Head · · Score: 1

      You notice I was referring to commercial prisons. Sounds like you are talking about state-run prisons.

  2. Oh Fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I want to do this. Sooo bad.

    1. Re:Oh Fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep.

      It would absolutely kick ass if this happened to just about every prison in the US at around the same time.

      And I don't mean just mess with them, I mean open all the doors, then fry the PLCs.

    2. Re:Oh Fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It wouldn't be so bad. You have the largest prison population in the world, but unless you have a higher hardcore criminal percentage than other countries, a lot of those prisoners aren't very dangerous.

    3. Re:Oh Fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except for the fact that it is a system that creates hardcore criminals out of mere scofflaws by confining them amongst the hardcore for extended periods of time.

  3. Re:F1ST P0ST! by dotancohen · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    F1ST P0ST!

    Or did everyone else get infected?

    Not everyone else is in jail pressing F5.

    --
    It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
  4. Who needs an insider by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Scatter a bunch of infected usb keys around the parking lot. Someone will insert it into a computer.

  5. Re:F1ST P0ST! by Gaygirlie · · Score: 0

    F1ST P0ST!

    ...but where's the fist?

  6. Take a wild guess by Simply+Curious · · Score: 1

    So, anyone want to guess whether people will react with "That security system is horrible." or with "Hackers can do anything." ?

    1. Re:Take a wild guess by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That's pretty much what I'd expect. Nobody will question the shoddy security, everyone's going to blame people who actually didn't (yet) do anything, just that "they" are able to do it is enough to condemn them.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  7. Hollywood, infect your heart out by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 2

    Expect this to be a new thing in hollywood movies. I think it's about the only thing they HAVEN'T used for a prison escape!

    1. Re:Hollywood, infect your heart out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not Hollywood, but Wallander (book, Swedish TV adaption and also British TV adaptation (still set in Sweden) beat them to it.

      A gang with the intent to destabilise the entire economy released a comrade from the police station cells (not quite prison, admittedly) by remotely overriding the locks.

    2. Re:Hollywood, infect your heart out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Although not a in a movie, something like this happened in an episode of Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles.

    3. Re:Hollywood, infect your heart out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Iirc demolition man

  8. Why are prison doors connected to a computer? by Lord+Lode · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't a good old switchboard do?

  9. BS by vlm · · Score: 2

    All believable, right up to:

    We could blow out all the electronics.

    The best I can think of is turning on the entire HVAC system at the same instant, popping the circuit breakers to the facility.

    Maybe you could turn the power to the TVs on and off every second until the switching power supplies blow, or maybe that wouldn't work..

    The problem with getting "average joe" to infect a PLC, is PLCs and their systems are getting more complicated, to the point that only specialists mess with them. Its a temporary thing. In the past, they were too few to matter, in the future they'll be too complicated for all but specialists to have access. This is just a momentary thing where "joe average industrial maint electrician" could theoretically screw stuff up.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:BS by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Informative

      If you could activate all the doors at once you could possibly overload the system. You're not going to blow out all the electronics, but you may well disable a critical path system. And if you opened all the doors and then opened them all some more simultaneously, that might well get them stuck open to the point where a human would have to manually close and lock each cell.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:BS by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      The things is your typical "PLC" these days is pretty much a ruggedized PC running Windows, and a likely buggy stack of control software packages on top of that; which do not get along with the security patches for Windows, so Windows does not get patched. This is pretty serious problem when these machines are not properly isolated.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    3. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      When safety conditions are only enforced by software, modified software can violate these safety conditions and cause physical damage. A simplistic example: A microcontroller has IO ports which can source a certain amount of combined current. If your software makes sure that no combination of individual ports which results in excessive current is ever switched on, the whole thing works fine. If the software is modified to enable all ports at the same time, the microcontroller dies. There are lots of other ways by which software can damage hardware: Programmable voltage controllers can fry the hardware, software-controlled limit switches can be disabled to destroy machinery, duty cycles can be modified to burn out motors, LEDs and other actors. Can you imagine what seeking would do to a hard disk if it isn't spinning? Those are all software controlled functions.

      The only reason why people still think they can mess with software any way they want and not risk damaging their hardware doing so is that they stay clear of the low level stuff, partly because the operating system won't let them near it and partly because they don't even know it's there. Deep inside modern machinery controlled by universal PLCs, software is increasingly often the only thing ensuring safety.

    4. Re:BS by Thad+Zurich · · Score: 2

      If you root the PLC, then you can probably do something like cycle the locks until the solenoids burn out. Given the inherent conflict between safety and security, I wouldn't care to bet whether they'd fail in lockdown or free-for-all mode, or 50/50 either way. Any countermeasure implemented in PLC code instead of hardware (or a semi-autonomous downstream PLC) would be vulnerable to alteration. A well-designed PLC implementation will have only *monitoring* outputs accessible to Internet-connected PCs, while the actual control inputs remain locked up tight in multiple ways.

    5. Re:BS by vlm · · Score: 2

      If you could activate all the doors at once you could possibly overload the system.

      I would disagree as "instant-lockdown" is probably one of the main features of the system. Any time they see a fight, to stop it from turning into a (bigger) riot, slap the big red switch to isolate the inmates. The opposite is the "fire switch" so you can instantly let all the inmates out of their cells; I suppose it depends on the security level of the inmates and local policies; some prisons might let them fry in their cells if there's a fire.

      And if you opened all the doors and then opened them all some more simultaneously, that might well get them stuck open to the point where a human would have to manually close and lock each cell.

      Now we're getting somewhere, cycle half open half closed until they all jam... assuming they are not inherently mechanically designed not to do that. It might be more expensive to design one that jams... Depending on contracts and corruption, a more expensive door that is capable of jamming might have been "required" so that expensive fixes can be applied.. But that's not the PLCs fault.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    6. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PLCs are specialized hardware designed for real time control of several hardware interfaces. They're certainly not running Windows. What you're thinking of are the central control systems which run the SCADA software.

    7. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A typical laptop has software in it (afaik it's commonly an 8080 inside the "keyboard bios" which does these things) which makes sure not to keep charging the Li-Ion battery. It can be overruled and when you do that, the battery will eventually start smoking and catch fire.

      Thus, software is saving my life almost daily.

    8. Re:BS by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I would be totally unsurprised if you didn't have to at least account for motor start delay, especially when the prison is being built by the lowest bidder.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    9. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Typical PLCs do not run Windows. The majority of PLCs use a manufacturer's customized real-time OS - certainly all the major brands (Rockwell, Siemens, Mitsubishi, Omron, Schneider, etc) do. However the operator supervisory interface (the "SCADA" bit) does run often on Windows, and small local operator interfaces often run on Windows CE also.

    10. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Laptop batteries include their own safety circuit, so the laptop actually can't overcharge the battery. It has recently been shown that laptop batteries can be rendered useless by reprogramming their controller. I think there's still some analog overcharge protection circuit in there, so making it useless is the worst you can do for now.

    11. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm studying National Instruments LabVIEW right now and it's function is very similar to a PLC. With LabVIEW, it would be easy to destroy interfaced electronics by outputting the wrong voltages or reversing polarity.

    12. Re:BS by ControlsGeek · · Score: 1

      LabView is not similar to a PLC. LabView is programmed by connect the dots picture drawing on a PC screen. PLC code is written and compiled and downloaded via a serial port into _Separate_ hardware that does not have variable output voltages that could be changed to be outside of the design range of the hardware device which was selected for a specific purpose. PLC hardware is engineered to do one specific job.

    13. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is a pretty big boast. Would sparks fly out of the keyboards like in the movies?
      Trip Breakers, maybe, damage equipment, possibly. Damage electronics? How?

    14. Re:BS by denobug · · Score: 1

      The things is your typical "PLC" these days is pretty much a ruggedized PC running Windows, and a likely buggy stack of control software packages on top of that; which do not get along with the security patches for Windows, so Windows does not get patched. This is pretty serious problem when these machines are not properly isolated.

      Actually the PLC itself is most likely designed with embedded architectures. The only company that advertise the use of an Intel processor is GE and I don't think I have heard them bragging about it for the last couple of years, most likely because their customer (or intended audience) do not like the fact that it is too similar to a standard PC.

      What is running the Windows are your operator interfaces, which is what the operator (in this case, the guards) would possibly be using to interface with the PLC. If proper design were followed no interlocks should have been programmed in the operator console and left vulnerable to the generic windows attack.

      Believe it or not it is not that hard to tell if someone has done anything to a PLC's programming. All it takes is a simple system periodically scanning the compiled hash stored on the PLC against the authorized copy stored somewhere else. Either the controlled copy or the PLC gets changed it can generate a notification to appropriate personnel.

      Last but not least if the control designer have any forethoughts a safety-grade safety relay can be put in-place to kill any commands from the PLC. This would effectively enforce a prison-wide lock-down until it can be mechanically reset. Since these buggers are purely electro-mechanical and once you kill it, it can only be reset locally (by applying a control voltage, which can be permanently turned-off) that is accessible in a safe-zone.

      In the end though, this is like any other security issue: It's never perfectly secure. But you can make it very difficult where the time it take to override the entire system is a lot longer than the response time. That would mostly make it an ineffective option compares to legal wrangling or human engineering, which is not part of the discussion.

    15. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many jails and prisons use pneumatics ; jam the solenoid maybe? The PLC code should account for motor lag and door travel lag if motors are used. Three hundred pound doors take a little time to stop. Seriously, detention hardware is tough, not anything like what you find at the hardware store. This story has little basis in reality, all PLC code and touch monitor code is custom. The easiest way to bugger a security door control system is to do it through the Window OS bugs or with the touch screen software not the PLC.

    16. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No actually they are not. A PC typically will be a front end for a PLC which is more an embedded device. The firmware may be good or bad but they don't run a standard OS. I would say this is true of Siemens, Omron, Square D, Koyo, Mitsubishi, Cedgelec, Allen Bradley, and GE. In my experience of a few years, none of these are anything like a standard hardened PC or terminal. The front end may run windows but the PLC certainly will not.

    17. Re:BS by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The PLC code should account for motor lag and door travel lag if motors are used.

      Yes, that's the whole point of this article, that prisons are vulnerable to attacks in PLC code. I only wish you had logged in.

      Seriously, detention hardware is tough, not anything like what you find at the hardware store.

      Yeah, that's the idea...

      The easiest way to bugger a security door control system is to do it through the Window OS bugs or with the touch screen software not the PLC.

      Unless you happen to have some PLC attack software lying around...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    18. Re:BS by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      Then the hardware designer stuffed up. There are things that should be safety interlocked. Also, system should be rated for a specific load. Cooking the PLC outputs may be possible by rapidly switching them, but someone would notice before your rated 100000 switches were up.

      Where I work we have found simpler PLCs more reliable and easier to work with. Siemens are a complete mess. Much better to use OMRON. Or even Mitsubishi(though they have issues too).

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    19. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess you don't cook much. If there was a fire the prisoners would most likely roast in their cells rather than fry.

  10. Reactions from officials by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I bet reactions from officials will include:
    1) This wouldn't happen, because it's illegal!
    2) We have to increase sentences for these kind of acts!
    3) We have to create new laws to punish people who do this!
    4) Let's sue whoever found the vulnerabillities!

    You can be sure they won't include:
    1) Admission that anything is wrong or any mistakes were made.
    2) Removal of vulnerabilities.
    3) Realisation that "pays for politician-in-charge's yacht and summer home" is not a criterium for competence.

  11. Common sense? by Severus+Snape · · Score: 2

    The problem being the majority of these systems were designed at a time when malware and hacking were not as big an issue as today, common sense can stop most threats easily but, no internet access, restrict physical media. Sorted. On a bigger scale but, it really worries me, cyber warfare is here and nobody is prepared. Things are going to get messy, fun fun times are ahead. :)

    1. Re:Common sense? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Cyber warfare? Stand back, I have a laptop and I know how to use it!

      C'mon, melodrama much? Cyber warfare is the buzzword for "we were too stupid/miserly/lazy to implement security, now people found out how our shoddy semblance of a figment of security can be bypassed, so they are cyber terrorists and cyber criminals and cyber whatever. It's not that we were negligent/lazy/greedy, no way!"

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  12. wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    That right there is some over the top scaremongering oh no the hackers could let out the evil convicts!

    Wow.... That's some major league bullshit spin. I gotta hand it to whatever powers that be came up with the idea that all of america now need to be afraid of the evil nasty internet hackers... Seriously. You outdid yourselves on this one. Way to reach for the stars. Go have a money fight or whatever you fucks do... That's some grade A fear trolling.

    I'm impressed.. I wonder how many millions were spent on this little slice of fear to control people. That's... wow.

    1. Re:wow by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, criminals are evil, hackers are evil, OF COURSE they help each other! Just like the terrorists, communists and other boogymen du jour. They're all after us, they climb in our windows, they snatch our... ok, it gets old, but I just wanted to use that once. Just once.

      But in this time and age, you have to scare people to get some funding. And if that scare is directing funding for a change towards more actual security instead of the usual security theater, I'm for it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  13. And in related news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And in related news, hackers could turn your computer into a bomb and blow your family to smithereens.

    Hackers "could" do a lot of things. How about we focus on what is realistic instead?

    1. Re:And in related news... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Realism?

      You never had to badger someone for a budget, did you? Painting a realistic picture, i.e. that yes, some thing might happen, but they're about as likely as you hitting the national lottery jackpot, will not get you funding.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:And in related news... by black+soap · · Score: 1

      And give up a perfectly reasonable argument against sending hackers to prison?

  14. This article is Shite by ControlsGeek · · Score: 4, Informative

    In the first place the prison control network is likeley not Ethernet. If it uses Allen Bradley PLCs in North America it is probably ControlNet a Token Passing bus topology. If it uses Gould/Modicon/SquareD/ Schneider it is probably Modbus Plus also a Token passing Bus Network. The PLC's will be executing Ladder Logic.
    The Control Computer that the article talks about is only used to modify or create code for the PLC's and thereafter disconnected.It would usually only be reconnected for Maintenance reasons. The control of the unlocking or locking of cell doors is likeley by push button in the Guard control room and done through the PLC I/O.

    The network is not going to be connected to the internet as that would be stupid.

    1. Re:This article is Shite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The problem is that this is not the case as is detailed in the paper.

    2. Re:This article is Shite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The paper says no such thing. There is NO detail in the paper.

      Which Prison ?
      What PLC is used model or vendor not specified.

      The Authors obtained a Siemens PLC unlikely to be used in NA because that particular model was what the Stuxnet virus was designed to attack as it was used in an Iranian Nuclear fuel facility. This German PLC uses PL7 as the control software to develop code in one of several languages see IEC61131.
      These languages are vendor specific and not commonly used in North America. LD the IEC1131 LaDder language is not the same language as Allen Bradley Ladder Logic or Square D ladder logic.

      The paper is typical academic vague BS

    3. Re:This article is Shite by __aaqvdr516 · · Score: 1

      ++mod

      I agree and would like to add that when you say "likeley not Ethernet" also means that there are some that are. We've recently started using Directlogic PLC's. Some do have ethernet (like the DL205).
      http://support.automationdirect.com/docs/plc_selection_considerations.html

      You could run all of your PLC's through a router so you could have all your PLC's programmable from a remote location. We've never done that, but then again we also don't have a prison population and access controls to deal with.

    4. Re:This article is Shite by OzPeter · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You could run all of your PLC's through a router so you could have all your PLC's programmable from a remote location. We've never done that, but then again we also don't have a prison population and access controls to deal with.

      I've done things like this and it works well. Had multiple remote sites connected to the home base via a VPN over the Internet. Not that I recommend programming from a remote location, but being able to ensure you have central backups, and do a centralized version control is a boon. The alternative was to have contract cowboys in each region with their own private copy of what they think the PLC program should be. So now the contractor arrives at site, checks out the PLC code from the central repository, modifies the PLC and then checks the code back in.

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    5. Re:This article is Shite by PPH · · Score: 2

      The Control Computer that the article talks about is only used to modify or create code for the PLC's and thereafter disconnected.

      Unless the control computer is running an HMI (Human Machine Interface) to monitor and/or control lock and alarm status. Then that's the attack vector. Think you can keep that system off the Internet? Good luck with that.

      From TFA:

      He and his team recently toured a prison control room at the invitation of a correctional facility in the Rocky Mountain region and found a staffer reading his Gmail account on a control system connected to the internet.

      Back when I worked for Boeing, we (engineering) supported some shop floor ATE (automated test equipment). Over our objections and warnings, management instituted a program to port all the ATE equipment over to Windows specifically so that shop floor personnel could use the system to handle their Outlook e-mail. In spite of warnings that this could jeopardize equipment certification and put their FAA manufacturing certificate at risk, the program proceeded. Management felt it was more important to give employees immediate access to inter-company communications than to build airplanes safely. Problems did crop up, including an incident where one mechanic decided that he wanted the wallpaper on his ATE controller to be a snapshot from the infamous Pamela Anderson/Tommy Lee honeymoon video. And in spite of our having used Windows NT, there was no way to lock the configuration of the system down to prevent him from putting the picture back several times (until we fired his ass). I don't care what all the CS graduates say, if a simple rivet driver can override a (supposedly) secure system, its just not securable.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    6. Re:This article is Shite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not necessarily. Most of the newer controllers I have seen out there are using TCP/IP modbus. Especially the ones that have 50+ input outputs on them.

      The older stuff is either 485 or 232 runs. Then if you want to build some sort of 'runs it all system' automation you put a computer into the mix and run some sort of SCADA system. Which is usually head ended by a PC. Which tada has ethernet built in.

      Also many of the newer AB controllers have TCP built in. Least the ones I have been seeing. Sure the older ones dont. But ethernet has many of the same capabilities as 485 of run length. But is also much nicer to wire up and you can buy off the shelf routers (cheaper) for things.

      Serial bus controllers will be around for a long time. As the systems they built with them will be around for a long time. But newer stuff is almost all going TCP. Or at least the option to do it.

      Let me put it to you this way. My customers do not ask for serial bus anymore...

    7. Re:This article is Shite by ControlsGeek · · Score: 1

      Yes I have seen those same issues in some of my work in Automated factories. The typical way to bridge Control Networks over to HMI networks is done haphazardly in many instances. The proper way would be through a Firewall router that would block ports used for PLC commands. I once commissioned a custom configured Eprom in a bridge for this purpose that allowed READ but not WRITE access to Modicon PLC's from SCADA system (operated by IT/ CS guys) to PLC's in the factory (that are the Domain of the Engineering and Maintenance people). There are PORTS that can easily be blocked in a firewall that would allow Web Email on port 80 but not allow PLC access on it's port. Also TCP/IP protocol stack may be on a different Ethernet card for Control HMI. Bridging between the cards should be disabled.

    8. Re:This article is Shite by codegen · · Score: 1

      I don't know what CS graduates you are talking too, but none of our CS grads would consider Windows a securable system.

      --
      Atlas stands on the earth and carries the celestial sphere on his shoulders.
    9. Re:This article is Shite by ControlsGeek · · Score: 1

      You are correct the newer controllers can come with Ethernet although TCP/IP Modbus isn't the same protocol stack as Rockwells TCP. Regardless if you are going to do this I recommend that you keep the network cards seperate at least. An ethernet card is less than $50 these days. Then load different protocol stack on each card and disable bridging. Load the driver for the PLC and bind it to one card while the Other card can be used for internet. Disable bridging betwwen the two network interfaces. Use the firewall SW and block the ports. You may consider MAC Address filtering as well.

    10. Re:This article is Shite by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Since when has stupidity stopped something from being implemented? If there's a cent to save, it will be done. To hell with security, this is just to keep criminals locked up, where do you need security in that?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    11. Re:This article is Shite by PPH · · Score: 1

      The attack vector (as its been explained to me) is to pwn the Windows control console running the HMI. Then, any command that the attacker sends via that console to the PLC is indiscernible (by the PLC) from a legit command from console app.

      Undoubtedly, there's an 'open all cell doors' button on the PC. If an attacker can duplicate that command and send it out to the connected door control PLCs, well, game over. And its not a matter of blocking ports on the PC. Once that has been infiltrated, it phones home (over whatever ports it can) to get its orders. And infiltrating a PC is as simple as getting some night shift guard, bored out of his skull, to 'Click Here for Free Porn'. As long as some bean counter MBA can convince management that there's money to be saved by letting employees answer e-mail and surf the web on the same system they manage the inmates, you're screwed.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  15. No no no no..... by RevWaldo · · Score: 4, Funny

    This is you do it. You just break into the warden's office, find his PC, go to a command line and enter:

    UNLOCK ALL INMATE DOORS
    DEACTIVATE SECURITY SYSTEM

    Then you smash the screen with a hammer so that no one can override the commands. It's simple.

    What?

    .

    1. Re:No no no no..... by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      This is you do it. You just break into the warden's office, find his PC, go to a command line and enter: UNLOCK ALL INMATE DOORS DEACTIVATE SECURITY SYSTEM Then you smash the screen with a hammer so that no one can override the commands. It's simple. What? .

      Totally wrong. Wrong I tell you. You have to Deactivate the alarm system first, then open the doors. That way you you don't announce to the rest of the world that you have engineered the breakout. Just make sure not to overlook the hidden alarm that the was secretly put in by the super crime fighter to let him know when his nemesis has escaped.

      Unless of course you engineered the breakout to cover for the fact that you are committing a crime in another part of the city. In which case you only open some of the outside doors in order to prolong the escape and provide the longest coverage for you plans - which might include luring your nemesis to the escape location in order to punish/frame him.

      Did I just write a hollywood movie? Or a series of movies????

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    2. Re:No no no no..... by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Did I just write a hollywood movie? Or a series of movies????

      Depends.. Isn't that the plot of Batman Begins?

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    3. Re:No no no no..... by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      Did I just write a hollywood movie? Or a series of movies????

      Depends.. Isn't that the plot of Batman Begins?

      You know, it probably was .. but I didn't have that movie in mind when I wrote my comments as I had totally forgotten about it - not to mention that I never saw it either

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      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    4. Re:No no no no..... by Clueless+Moron · · Score: 4, Funny

      This is you do it. You just break into the warden's office, find his PC, go to a command line and enter: UNLOCK ALL INMATE DOORS DEACTIVATE SECURITY SYSTEM .

      You left out a critical step. The computer will respond with ACCESS DENIED, at which point you type OVERRIDE

    5. Re:No no no no..... by lennier · · Score: 1

      Nah, you just need a stock standard R2-series astromech droid, have it insert its computer access probe into the nearest rotary dial socket, then tell it "Unlock all trash compactors on the detention level".

      Or load the secret battle station plans into it and tell it to launch a lifepod. Nobody will ever shoot it because, hey, it's just a droid, and droids never smuggle data.

      Or you send your droid into the druglord's hideout, and instead of doing a mandatory security wipe or even checking for hidden compartments, the first thing they do is let the fully powered up and droid serve drinks to all the high-level operatives. Then just wait while it tosses you a deadly weapon, and uses its own taser attachment to fry anyone in reach.

      It always works because nobody has ever tried to do bad things with droids ever in the history of the universe. *

      * Except for that whole galactic war in which one side's armies was composed entirely of assassin battle robots. But other than that, robots are totally cool and you should let them just walk into the highest security environments!

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    6. Re:No no no no..... by xenobyte · · Score: 1

      If you're going down that road...

      First of all, there will be a password prompt, in nice HUGE letters on the screen - you know in case the warden lost his reading glasses or something...
      You look around and notice a picture of his son on the table and a drawing signed "Joshua" on the wall... So now you know the password is "Joshua" (of course it is)

      UNLOCK ALL INMATE DOORS
      "Ok"

      DEACTIVATE SECURITY SYSTEM
      But wait! - the warden is not supposed to deactivate the security system! - "ACCESS DENIED!"

      But the warden being the warden he types "OVERRIDE" and presto!

      --
      "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
    7. Re:No no no no..... by antdude · · Score: 1

      Shia Saide LaBeouf, is that you?

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  16. Stuxnet super worm .. by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    Recall all the Stuxnet comments on how it was so unique and targeted it was.
    The perfect safe digital weapon with layers of unique code to seek out a sub set of industrial units.
    Now cost cutting Microsoft based programmable logic controllers are at risk in other areas...
    Why are so many expensive unique projects connected to low end Windows code?

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    1. Re:Stuxnet super worm .. by Thad+Zurich · · Score: 1

      ...because Microsoft already has all of our software money.

    2. Re:Stuxnet super worm .. by ControlsGeek · · Score: 1

      The Microsoft Windows code referenced refers to the PL7 Compiler which typically runs on a laptop and is used to download code to the serial port on the PLC.
      The Windows laptop is used because it is ubiqutous and cheaper than the predecessor a customized PLC programming terminal.

  17. Blog by azuan · · Score: 0

    My blog also been hacked..

  18. Bare the Bear in mind!!!! by Quick+Reply · · Score: 1

    It must be traumatic to feel like there is a Bear in your mind (Assuming it is the grizzly kind, not the furry friendly kind), I wonder how the author can bare it?

    1. Re:Bare the Bear in mind!!!! by Quick+Reply · · Score: 1

      It must be traumatic to feel like there is a Bear in your mind (Assuming it is the grizzly kind, not the furry friendly kind), I wonder how the author can bare it?

      OK my mistake, I am actually wrong about this. My apologies to the author.

  19. The free market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    forces the govt prisons to automate or else all their "guests" will get transferred to "save money by using the free market"

    Now that's funny. As if the free market set the goal for the highest incarceration rate in the entire world. As if the free market sat down and planned out the racket which would lock milllions of non-violent human beings in cages like animals.

    Government decides who gets locked in cages and why, not the free market. These "private" prisons aren't examples of free market economics at all. They are merely subsideraries in the business of government.

    1. Re:The free market by moonbender · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The free market is a vague metaphor. Corporations and other financial interests are more concrete, and their influence on lawmaking is very real. Although I am not sure that their influence is to blame for a high incarceration rate.

      It's hardly outrageous, though: Obviously the private prison system has a direct interest in it. Pharma doesn't directly profit from incarceration, but it does have an interest in harsh penalties on trading drugs that they don't control. Etc.

      But clearly, there is a multitude of forces at work here. A culture of fear that encourages harsh sentences and incarceration over rehabilitation. A crazy divide between rich and poor and a bleak economic outlook. Poor education. Obviously some people will blame the free market (whatever they think that is) for many of these things, while others will do the opposite and demand an even free-er free market (whatever they think that is).

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      Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
    2. Re:The free market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The free market has these things called lobbyists. Lobbyists control government because Congress either toes the line, or people will be elected who will.

      Want to know who is deciding why we need more felonies every day, and why people need to get locked up, even though crime rates are not impacted? Definitely not government -- in reality, politicians want crime because it can be used as a hot button issue during election time.

      The people who want the prisons stuffed with inmates is the private prison system.

      This is the free market at work. Pure "capitalism" without any regulations of bribery, or controls on campaign contributions is what you see here. Pure capitalism means that the most ruthless, psychopathic people get to the top and stay there.

      Regulations and laws are important. Capitalism doesn't build roads unless the market is there. Capitalism doesn't feed homeless unless there is PR to be gained. It doesn't care about national defense or crime unless people pay private security companies. It cares about the almighty bitcoin (or currency of choice) and that's it.

      I guess history isn't taught anymore, or people would remember Frick, Standard Oil, Carnegie, and many other companies which thrived under a government that little to no regulation. It took a depression where the whole economy that was based on bad borrowing and a president with some balls to actually fix things.

      Capitalism isn't all bad, but it needs regulation or else we end up with bank crisis after bank crisis, stock scams, and many other issues.

    3. Re:The free market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well its harder to use murderers as a slave labor force then non-violent offenders...

    4. Re:The free market by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

      If it weren't for labor's precious FDR fucking with SCOTUS for his precious reforms the vast majority of laws causing non-violent drug incarceration would not be constitutional.

    5. Re:The free market by RabidMonkey · · Score: 1

      I politely disagree - when you have corporation that have their hands on lawmakers strings, or you have lawmakers who are on the boards of various corporations/etc, you have the 'free market' influencing who is a criminal.

      Want proof - read the front page of slashdot today. Or any other day .. the BSA, RIAA, etc ...

      So, more realistically, it's the government who decides, with the influence of the free market.

      --
      We emerge from our mother's womb an unformatted diskette; our culture formats us. - Douglas Coupland
    6. Re:The free market by memyselfandeye · · Score: 2

      My father was a sheriff and handled the prisons for our county. (Ironically, my grandfather was a felon for robbing a bank) Here's my 2.5 cents. We don't have more criminals than other nations, actually we're quite low in the number of offenses. But we do have mandatory sentencing and very long prison terms, so we have more criminals in the system. Every holiday, Thanksgiving for example, there would be 2 or 3 convicts invited to our house to have a good meal and a chance for a break from the prison grind. Usually the guys committed property or other non violent crime, but sometimes assault and battery. While in most other nations these criminals would server sentences ranging from 6-20 months, and was the case in the US decades ago, in our system today they now serve 3-5 years.

      So you've got some dude that, for whatever reason, decided to rob a house or steal from a liquor store. He gets caught, you always do eventually, and end up in jail. He probably feels bad and remorseful, even if only because he got caught. Either way, you'll end up spending a decent chunk of time in the slammer that usually costs you your job and maybe even your family. Hence why my old man liked to bring these guys around. It wasn't charity. He'd invite them, they could turn him down or not. Nor were they expected to 'work it off' as so many people seem to think when I tell them this story.

      Other things he did before mandatory sentencing became overbearing were;

      1) Weekend prison stays for non-violent and first time offenders. There was an honor system involved in this. The idea being if you were truly sorry you'd do the time and be thankful you still had a job on the weekdays.

      2) Work release programs where local businesses would hire prisoners for odds and ends. They got paid immediately, perhaps it was low I do not know, but it was real money that lots of guys gave to their families who needed it now that the bread winner was in the slammer.

      3) Mock chain gangs. Prisoners who wanted a chance to leave the walls could dress up in the joke outfits and go around place to place singing stupid songs about prison life. Shools, malls, places like that.

      4) A slew of other options for men to do their time with dignity. Decades ago, it was thought that surrounding normally decent people with true thugs was not such a good idea.

      What happened in the last couple of decades was the use of metrics and statistics. Politicians could go out and say things like, "vote for me and I'll keep the prisoners in jail longer. Look at what [insert State here] did! They upped minimum sentences and now property theft is down 20%". Sounds good to a voter I suppose, however it's really kind of useless since it discounts better law enforcement and education in the first place, not to mention the dramatic increase in repeat offenses. The solution... "Longer prison terms for repeat offenders!" Now you rob a store that is occupied and it's jail for 15 years. You get caught with drugs 'next' (within 3 miles) of a school and you get tossed in the big house for 6 years. Good luck trying to not live withing 6 miles of a school, or robbing a store with people in it. I'm not trying to put on a liberal sob story, but from my very conservative point of view and upbringing things have dramatically changed. It's almost as if you've got nothing to lose, I mean hell, if you get caught you know you're done for the rest of your life so 'just go for it.' There are very few second chances, and almost no third chances. So in my opinions, prisons haven't become a place to punish criminals, they've become a place to get rid of them forever.

      Keep in mind, the prisons I'm talking about are the majority of minimum or medium security facilities managed by counties. I'm not talking about the super-max industrial complexes. That's a whole different ball-o-wax, yet it does seem that they are growing while the others are shrinking due to the reasons cited above.

      2.5 cents. Caveat emptor.

    7. Re:The free market by moonbender · · Score: 1

      You should get a hold of Louis Theroux: Miami Mega Jail. Don't let the title put you off, Theroux (a Brit) often covers "tacky" topics, but does so in a very serious and insightful way. It's gonzo journalism.

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      Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
  20. What if... by SwedishChef · · Score: 1

    You got control of the PLCs, started the emergency generator, set it to run at 75Hz, and forced it to connect to the mains? I'm thinking that might blow up a few bits and pieces of electronics.

    Remember that Stuxnet was designed to use the PLCs to vary the frequency of the equipment.

    --
    No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
    1. Re:What if... by leucadiadude · · Score: 1

      Clearly you don't know much about how backup emergency diesel speed control systems are set up. Most of em are physically unable (as in a mechanical limiter) raise speed above 63 hz. And most if not all have automatic tripping if speed drops to or below 57 hz while loaded. I can see sitting there at 57 hz for a long time, that might cause high current draw from your loads, eventually leading long time delay current trips. Can't see much chance of long term damage. Might be a PITA to restart in manual though.

    2. Re:What if... by subreality · · Score: 1

      I don't know too much about diesel generators, but I *have* seen what happens when one is switched in when it's out of phase: no mechanical damage, but the magic smoke escaped from the transfer switch. I don't know if that counts as "blow[ing] out /all/ the electronics", but it definitely blew, and the server room was dark for hours.

    3. Re:What if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you say UPS backup? A well designed system will allow plenty of time to lock a facility down before control dies, and a well designed system defaults to a secure condition.

    4. Re:What if... by subreality · · Score: 1

      It took out the UPS. In proper operation this would not have happened. This was during a maintenance window when the UPS vendor was installing upgrades. The whole site was operating on generator power during the outage; when they went to cut back over to mains the whole thing popped. The root cause was a wiring fault by the UPS vendor. Fortunately we had plenty of maintenance window left to boot and fsck everything.

    5. Re:What if... by vlm · · Score: 1

      The biggest problem isn't how to remotely change the generator speed to blow it up, but how to change it at all. There seems little market advantage in being able to remotely configure a generator to overspeed and blow up; so it seems spectacularly unlikely a manufacturer would design to that spec, instead of the much cheaper competition configured to run at 60 hz. I'm not thinking marketing will have a power point slide "nee model now with the ability to blow up remotely over the internet"

      My uncle the diesel maintenance tech claims they have entirely different models of gens to run at 50 hz. In the long run its worthwhile to optimize exhaust systems so at least some have different motor parts, and all of them have different alternators. From listening to him, sounds like at least the control board, mufflers, cooling fans, and cooling ducts need to be swapped out.

      It does take a lot more iron to run at 50 hz than 60 hz. On a percentage basis you just oversize an old fashioned linear power supply to run here and europe. Also it helps that europe uses 220 volts so the xfrmr dumps a bit more heat due to 50 hz, but it dumps a bit less heat because 220 is slightly more efficient. But you "can't afford" to oversize a half million dollar generator by 20% just in case someone might want to run that model at 50 hz in the future. Its much cheaper to dispatch my uncle with a pickup truck full of 50 hz replacement parts.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  21. Lots of scary buzz words by OzPeter · · Score: 5, Informative
    TFA has lots of security related buzzwords, but for me the meat in TFA is buried down in

    Custom exploits are not hard to create for PLCs due to the ease of programming them by simplistic programming languages like Ladder Logic. For example, everyone on this research team was able to put together a PLC exploit in only a few hours. While we created the exploits for research purposes, there are many exploits that are publicly available and can be found online such as on Exploit-DB.com.

    There are multiple attack vectors that could lead to a compromise of the PLCs. If the machine controlling, monitoring, or programming is misused by personnel and connected to the internet, then the usual client side attack vectors are in scope. When it is connected to the Internet, it is also subject to conventional attacks such as, man-in- the-middle, network based attacks exploits, and forced updates – perhaps some with improper SSL certificates as was the case with Stuxnet

    So there are lots of scary buzzwords all over the place, but when it comes to saying what they actually achieved in their "research" they are extremely light on details. Sure don't tell the world what techniques you actually employed, but do tell us that you remotely snuck into a network and managed to flip some I/O signals etc. If anything the biggest joke in the paper is

    By accessing the loaded libraries of the software that control, monitor, or program the PLCs, we believe we have found an attack vector that is not vendor-specific.

    Thats like saying that hacking into the ECU of a car is a vulnerability that is present across all car manufactures. Yep it sure is, but then you need to step back and admit that every car manufacturer has a bespoke implementation of their control units and the real world is not like Independence Day.

    I have been using PLCs for longer that some /.'s have been alive and one thing I can say is that the only thing each manufacture's PLC has in common with each other is that they run off electrical power. And given the way PLC code is typically written, every prison control system is going to be a custom job, so there is not going to be any implementation consistency across the board. Stuxnet only worked through a sophisticated and well researched plan to directly target Iran's nuclear program. Regardless of who you blame as the originator, you have to admit that it was not the job of a script kiddy, but someone with immense resources behind them. If you think that someone is going to direct an equal amount of resources towards unlocking a prison, then you have more issues to consider than a bunch of dope dealers running around free.

    Finally the biggest laugh for me in TFA was

    The communications port is typically 9-pin RS-232 or EIA-485;

    That shows that the authors have no idea about how a modern PLC system is put together. Serial comms may be the rage for shoebox PLCs (and given that they spent only $2500 on hardware/software, they were NOT dealing with a big name PLC manufacturer, or anything larger than a "toy" PLC), but on a modern mid sized PC system we have upgraded to Ethernet, Proifbus and even fibre for comms. A colleague recently had a "small" PLC system on his desk - two PLC racks in a redundant setup and just the CPU and system cards, with no I/O racks. The list price of this hardware was $100,000 and it was nothing special. (Claims of Apple being over priced are nothing compared to PLC manufacturers).

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    1. Re:Lots of scary buzz words by tfigment · · Score: 1

      While I don't disagree that PLCs are way over priced. $100,000 sounds a bit too high for a PLC even if its a safety PLC with redundancy. We should be talking $5000 per PLC and then $1000-2000 per IO module (1 IO = 4-8 analog, 16 digital, 6 Thermocouples, ...) before vendor discounts. We instrumented a some sophisticated stuff for $50000 with Rockwell DeviceNet and that was at least a full panel (like 8 racks full of IO). When we switched to custom embedded controllers the cost was something like $3000 for the equivalent hardware. Admittedly their software has a lower barrier of entry and far less development cost but is useful for prototyping before going into full scale production.

    2. Re:Lots of scary buzz words by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      While I don't disagree that PLCs are way over priced. $100,000 sounds a bit too high for a PLC even if its a safety PLC with redundancy

      I was surprised at the cost as well. This was the latest bleeding edge (less than 6 month old) AB system, 2 racks, 2 cpu's per rack, 2 Ethernet cards and 2 Fibre cards and a couple of other cards. So you are down in the $10K+ per card on average - which is not that unreasonable. So your cards are not that far off. I used to think that GE stuff was pricey too - until I did some jobs with Toshiba PLCs.

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    3. Re:Lots of scary buzz words by ControlsGeek · · Score: 1

      I concur with the overpriced hardware for most PLC vendors. I think AB/Rockwell is probably the most pricey.
      The Software costs and Maintenance for software is also outrageous.

      But when you look at DCS costs the PLC seems cheap.

    4. Re:Lots of scary buzz words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, Rockwell (and Siemens) are hugely overpriced for what you get. Every time I have to order one of their special 'magic' 16MB CF cards for like £500 I weep a little on the inside.

      Fortunately the automation market is pretty competitive and there are some nice low-cost options out there - the best value comes from the Japanese manufacturers in my experience.

      Several manufacturers are now revamping their software range towards more integrated architectures - I hope that this will give Rockwell and Siemens some more competition, maybe it will drive prices down.

    5. Re:Lots of scary buzz words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think that someone is going to direct an equal amount of resources towards unlocking a prison, then you have more issues to consider than a bunch of dope dealers running around free.

      I would wager that there are many foreign intelligence agencies that would put significant resources into hacking PLC systems used throughout our infrastructure (including prisons). Lots a bang for the buck!

    6. Re:Lots of scary buzz words by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      The list price of this hardware was $100,000 and it was nothing special. (Claims of Apple being over priced are nothing compared to PLC manufacturers).

      Hm ... a hundred K seems a bit high, but you're right that the stuff isn't cheap. On the other hand, nobody in his right mind would use an Apple product to run valve & pump control for an oil refinery or some other critical process (although I'm sure there are people that try.) There are substantial liability issues with which manufacturers of industrial controllers have to contend that commercial vendors do not.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    7. Re:Lots of scary buzz words by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      I concur with the overpriced hardware for most PLC vendors. I think AB/Rockwell is probably the most pricey. The Software costs and Maintenance for software is also outrageous.

      But when you look at DCS costs the PLC seems cheap.

      Yeah. Honeywell, I'm looking at you.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    8. Re:Lots of scary buzz words by nausicaa · · Score: 1

      Modern PLC-system? Seriously, PLC-systems are NOT upgraded at the rate some people upgrade their gaming systems. Sure, sometimes they get an overhaul, but I need only look at what was in use at the place I was at just 1 month ago. Big multinational company. What did they use? A lot of old PLCs, including ones as old as the Simatic S5-family. Why? Because they don't change them if they work and they can get spare parts. One really old system broke down some time back, and while they couldn't get a new one, they did have a transformer they could use instead of the original one, so they did. What kind of connection did they use most of the time? You guessed it; 9-pin RS-232 :P Instead of getting a bigger PLC when needing to upgrade, they added blocks with more I/O. You simply don't replace a whole system because there is something newer/better available.

      Otoh, I have to wonder.. If people can indeed get access from outside, the security must be a joke.

    9. Re:Lots of scary buzz words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To summarize the last part: there are $2500 PLC setups and $100.000 PLC setups. Now which of those are you going to find in a lowest-bidder prison, and which in a nuclear weapons plant? I'm inclined to agree with you that the paper is fluff, but I don't think you need the equivalent of Stuxnet to take out a prison.

  22. Why is the Coward above labeled Flamebait? by denzacar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This IS scaremongering.

    'Once we take control of the PLC we can do anything (PDF). Not just open and close doors. We can absolutely destroy the system. We could blow out all the electronics.'

    Right there.
    Your average reader now doesn't visualize a circuit-board somewhere fizzing out and releasing some of that mythical white smoke.
    He sees **BUM!***BUM!***EXPLOSIONS!!!***BADA-BUM!!*** instead.
    Followed by rapists and serial killers and cannibals being armed with rocket launchers and AIDS and set loose onto a kindergarten city somewhere.
    You know... a city made entirely out of kindergartens. And diaper factories.

    Too bad Numb3rs was canceled...
    Or there would now surely be an episode in the making about just such an escape attempt.
    Fortunately, CSI: Miami is still on the air.
    We may yet see 2 million convicts across USA blowing up prisons with internet viruses and then rampaging across the land... no... wait...

    QUICK! Someone get me Michael Bay and Jerry Bruckheimer - I've got their next blockbuster right here!

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  23. Guns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's why the guards on the towers carry guns.

  24. Re:This article //Remote programming access. by ControlsGeek · · Score: 1

    Yes You could have this done over Ethernet TCP/IP. You could bridge the local Control Net to the internet and this is done in some cases. You could program from a central location in the facility. There are many reasons that you may want to do that but the safety consideration of someone accidentally remotely turning on or off a valve or causing a robot to swing into a new position means it is not commonly done in the most automated of factories. Of course each system is custom engineered for an application so anything is possible.

    I would imagine in a Prison there may be a reason to program from a remote (safe) location. But I see no need to do that from outside the prison walls.

  25. Cheat with display by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stuxnet managed to cheat everybody by having the display show nothing was wrong, while in fact spinning the uranium faster.

    Therefore, something similar need to display that the doors are in fact closed, when they really are open.

  26. Re:Idiot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "where would we, the working public, be, without prisons?"

    Drowning in commas?

  27. A Much Better Exploit .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Would be to install malware on the TSA's body scanners. When scanning, it would perform gender analysis. If female, it would display a random picture of Pamela Anderson. If male, it would display a random picture of Arnold Schwarzenegger as Conan the Barbarian.

    Who could complain? (Except those who want us to turn over all our lives and security to them "in our own best interest".)

  28. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  29. If this is indeed true, by geekprime · · Score: 1

    First off it shows a STUNNING lack of of any sort of thought on the part of the people in charge of security and system design, connecting ANY command and control system of any kind to the real internet is something that should never, ever, be done, peroid.

    I don't care HOW convenient it is or how useful it is, it's painting a giant soft target on your system and anyone who does it should be fired.

    Furthermore, anyone who takes a usb stick or other media and plugs it into a secure C&C system needs to be fired also, as a matter of fact such systems should probably be designed with little to no access to external media and any actually required access points should be as secured as possible.

    As far as the systems go, designing a system in such a way that it is possible for software to actually destroy or even damage hardware is just fucking lazy, hardware should be (and traditionally is) designed to not exceed it's limits.

    And yes, you can make the argument that a motherboard can be set to overclock till it destroys the CPU, but that's not a supposedly secure command & control system now is it? Those are different things for a reason.

    1. Re:If this is indeed true, by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Furthermore, anyone who takes a usb stick or other media and plugs it into a secure C&C system needs to be fired also, as a matter of fact such systems should probably be designed with little to no access to external media and any actually required access points should be as secured as possible.

      I know nothing about prison control systems, but I've spent a couple of decades in industry (okay, maybe a little more than that.) It is astounding the difference in security procedures you see across different organizations. I've seen some outfits that have completely electrically separate engineering/process and business networks, with all communication between those networks (if any!) being pinholed and heavily monitored, and other outfits that just run one big fiber loop around their facility and hook everything into it, PLCs, accounting, engineering, mainframes, database servers, workstations, you-name-it. Some places I have to beg for permission in advance to connect my lap to their network in order to perform necessary maintenance (much less plug in a thumbdrive.) They'll usually insist on running a maware scan on it anyway. Other outfits just point out the nearest network jack, or give me the password to their company Wi-Fi.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  30. The trouble with PLCs by Animats · · Score: 2

    Progress with programmable logic controllers has made them much more vulnerable. They used to be really dumb devices, often programmed by physically plugging in an EPROM. Their communications protocol tended to be some ancient multi-drop serial protocol like RS-485, or a vendor-specific proprietary network. The "host machine" tended to be some CPU on a card, connected to a dumb terminal or a control panel. This was dumb and static, but being totally isolated, secure from external intrusion.

    Now, PLCs tend to be reprogrammable over their communications link. Some support Ethernet directly. The proprietary networks were all overpriced, and although Ethernet is overkill for most low-level controllers, the interface parts are cheaper, the cables are cheaper, the connectors are cheaper, and more interface devices are available. Also, 10baseT, which has differential signalling and error control, has better noise immunity than some of the lower-speed proprietary networks. I've used devices that have a built in web server just for configuration purposes. With no security.

    Even if the low-level network is nonstandard, there's a tendency today to put in a gateway to an Ethernet. This allows connection to, inevitably, a PC running Windows, usually with some custom DLL from the controls vendor. (See page 9 of this Siemens brochure.) This often allows reprogramming the low level controllers from a PC. This is exactly the configuration that was used in the Iranian centrifuge facility.

    Of course, once you have something that's IP over Ethernet with Windows machines on it, it tends to become accessible from the outside world. This is a recognized problem. Here's a Siemens paper on it. They talk about "firewalls" a lot, but don't go into much detail over what they really do. Note that they mention an engineering terminal use for system programming (a PC), physically outside the firewall, coming in through an encrypted VPN. That's a classic point of attack.

    The trouble is that it's too convenient to have connections to external systems. The PLC system for lock control in a prison wouldn't seem to have to be connected to other systems. But there's going to be an inmate inventory system that tracks who is supposed to be in which cell. It's convenient if the interface to the locking system shows who is supposed to be where, and has important info like which prisoners are violent, which need extra medical attention, and such. Then you can have screens which show both door status and prisoner info.

    But others need to talk to the prisoner inventory system. The system for food ordering needs info about how many inmates are in which parts of the prison and maybe their dietary needs. And the system for food ordering needs to talk to external suppliers to place orders. That means a link to outside the prison. This is the sort of thing which leads to a data path from non-critical to critical systems.

  31. prison door pick. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If I were a billionaire I would spend every penny to have every prison hit with this at once.
    Guess thats why I am not one.

  32. In other news by kent_eh · · Score: 1

    People are shocked to see that standard PLCs are used in a wide range of industrial control applications.

    It's almost like they were designed for being used in a wide variety of applications.

    --

    ---
    "I can't complain, but sometimes still do..." Joe Walsh
  33. ... and send them to Mordoch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Alternate reading of the title: hackers could open convicts' cellphones and send their voice mail to some enterprising news organization.

    1. Re:... and send them to Mordoch by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Alternate reading of the title: hackers could open convicts' cellphones and send their voice mail to some enterprising news organization.

      "enterprising news organization." That's hilarious.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  34. Same vulnerabilities...nice. by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1

    "Some of the same vulnerabilities that the Stuxnet superworm used to sabotage centrifuges at a nuclear plant in Iran exist in the country's top high-security prisons where programmable logic controllers (PLCs) control locks on cells and other facility doors."

    They're going to spin the prison faster and faster until the cell doors shake off? Nice. I'd watch that.

  35. It is all about state contracts by bdwoolman · · Score: 1

    And the skim. These PLC systems are more expensive. They seem sexy. And did I say they are expensive? More skim. Our jails are privatized. More prisoners equal more "customers". Get hard on crime (Looks good, Right?) More customers. More prisons. More skim. In the last twenty years the prison population has jumped from two hundred thousand to two million. One order of magnitude. When were the prisons privatized? (About twenty years ago it got into full swing as I recall.) It's a growth industry.

    Prison lobby: "We need harsher laws and sentence guidelines." Pols: "We'll look good and be tough on crime." Three strikes. More prisoners. More prisons. More... skim.

    You don't put in a five dollar valve when you can put in a ________ dollar PLC. (How much does a PLC cost I wonder?) More skim. So don't concern yourself with the logic of how to make a prison more secure. Concern yourself with the logic of how to make it more expensive and you will be thinking like a real leader of men.

    Now, during the recession, we have a game changer with tight state budgets. Let's relax those cannabis laws. Uh oh. Less skim. w00t.

    --
    "No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy
    1. Re:It is all about state contracts by metrix007 · · Score: 1

      jesus, stop saying skim.

      --
      If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
  36. Hackers Could Open Convicts' Cells In Prisons by roberttrailer · · Score: 1

    Shaw Capital Management Warning You earn an automatic share on my Fb profile for writing this. This should be known by the whole school body so we are better informed on such dirty tactics.

  37. Stuxnet worked because... by rioki · · Score: 1

    Stuxnet worked because they had detailed intel on the facility and operation. Now a short reminder how stuxnet was injected into the plat. It was a worm that looked for a computer that has the engineering software and the right project. The worm then modified the PLCs control code and the SCADA logic. To work the modified project had to be downloaded onto the target devices. This was done by the engineers of the plant. All PLCs I know have a physical switch (often a key) that you need to set to download the PLC code. The reason this is done is security, not because of hackers, but because you don't want to bring your PLC offline by mistake on your nuclear power plant. It took stuxnet ages to actually work and only worked because it infected the a master project before it was downloaded into the plant.

    It is kind of difficult to apply this to prisons. You need allot of inside info to pull this off. First form the PLC code view of things the different locks, switches or sensors are only a bunch of DI/DO or AI/AO. So there is not predictable way you can influence them, other than toggle them all and see what happens. I think the entire system will then be taken offline quite fast. Then the same policy applies as in a power failure. To make any targeted attack you need intricate knowledge of the engineering project and facility layout. But even then you need to infect the master project and it needs to be downloaded onto the PLCs. This basically happens once, when the system is installed. You may get some differential downloads when components are fixed and updated but that happens not to often.

    Pulling something like this off is more along the lines of Mission Impossible than your average computer tug. Yes I think that stuxnet is material that could come directly from Hollywood. I don't know what went down with stuxnet, but is must have been a hell of an operation, of which we only saw the tip of the iceberg.

    Maybe, just maybe, it may be possible for some organized crime or some country trying to pull out an political convict. But, honestly, getting a military grade helicopter and well trained mercenaries is far more cost effective that trying mess with the PLCs.

  38. Wouldn't work in Texas state prisons... by painehope · · Score: 1

    Though it might work in some of the city and county jails. But the state prisons here are all run off gear that is non-networked. Sure, some of the newer facilities might have VOIP phones or IP-based cameras in some areas, but you're still not going anywhere or getting much done in a TX state prison without a ring of keys. About the best you could hope for might be to shut off a camera. Which might work if you're coordinating a hit, but you're better off doing that during a medical transfer or something similar anyways. It'd be easier to bribe a guard to look the other way than any electronic attack.

    That's all I can really speak from experience, because the only Federal facility I've been in was just a detainment center that was run by the local cops anyways, so it had the same methodology. The Harris County jail has a lot of unpatched, unprotected Windows PCs, but even the ones that are networked only go to the LAN and have no Internet access (I should know, I've gotten disciplinary action for getting a local sheriff's login [via shoulder-surfing] and using it while I was doing time in 1200 Baker Street, Houston, TX). And all movements and release are coordinated via an armband system that has a hard-copy of your picture (which almost all cops check, especially on prisoners like myself who are deemed "security threats" and "aggravated" - they're pretty serious about that shit, since apparently they've had some escapes by other high-security prisoners who managed to get ahold of another prisoner's armband and get released under that name; if you don't know one bit of information [like who bailed you out, or what all of your charges are - I kid you not, they quiz you fairly extensively on that before buzzing you into the steel cage that surrounds the magnetically-locked steel door that leads downstairs ATW exit - then they'll detain you and run all kinds of checks before letting you out...between that and their general laziness, it's no wonder that it takes up to 48 hours from when your bond or other release papers go through and when you actually walk onto the city street). You're not getting out of Harris County without inside help, period. You're far more likely to be able to escape from a state prison than a county jail in Texas, at least without some sort of serious injury or illness (and who wants to be on the run with a Hep C attack or after stabbing yourself? That kind of defeats the purpose of the word "run", eh?). Other than Harris County, all of the other city and county jails I've been in both in Texas and other states were dirt-primitive compared to modern technology. And the only state prison system I've been in has been in Texas, and I wasn't in that many units since my stay was only a few years and I was in administrative segregation for most of that time. And of course my time as a juvenile doesn't count, since that was back in the days when BBSes were high-tech communications and modems were almost priceless.

    Anyways, I just thought I'd share some first-hand experience with computer systems and penology. Oh, though it is pretty funny that the county I live in right now (Fort Bend, which is right outside of Houston and much more pleasant, not to mention much more affordable as long as you don't mind getting up early to make the commute, but since I work long hours anyways that would happen regardless) uses their network closet (which is seriously stone-age) as temporary storage for prisoners getting visits (at least on the 2nd and 6th floors, which are the only ones I've been on since they're the high-security floors). I've been left alone before in the network closet (since my visit was relatively brief - I'm not one of those people that likes a lot of contact with the outside world when I'm doing time, plus that go-round I wasn't in for very long), where I was sitting there thinking about rewiring their LAN and their video system, but finally decided that they'd figure it out eventually and just add more time so it wasn't worth the short-term laughs. If I'd been in there for months or years instead of just a few weeks, I'd have decided differently, but I wasn't.

    --
    PC moderators can suck my White pierced, tattooed dick. If you think pride == hate, s/dick/Aryan meat mallet/g.
  39. great! by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    just blow them up man, stop wasting billions keeping those serail murderers alive anyways....

  40. C3PO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Shut down all garbage containers on the detention level!"

  41. Hack prisons, wards shoot rioters dead, win-win! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think this would be beneficial in it happened in a Supermax. Hacker hacks, all those homicidors and arsonists get out of their cells rioting and then the wards shoot them dead for good. No more cost of food and shelter to the taxpayers to keep alive those, who should have been hanged years or decades ago.

    As President Jackson said, USA is built upon universal respect for three basic institutions: flag, motherhood and capital punishment. No public hangings means no public morals, that's why USA is sliding down-wards so quickly! In Venice, Italy every single week there was somebody hanging between the quayside columns of St. Mark's Place and their tiny, independent merchant republic lasted over 1000 years, despite all those foreign attacks. Will the USA make it to 250 yrs?

  42. oblig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Norm, could you read me the number on the modem?