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What Do I Do About My Ex-Employer Stealing My Free Code?
An anonymous reader writes "I recently found out that the company I used to work for is removing all the open source licenses (GPL and MIT) from my work, distributing it as proprietary software and taking all the credit despite the fact that they contributed nothing to it. They are even renaming it something really silly. What should I do?"
Search out the journal of /. user TomHudson for one person's experience with this (ongoing, last I heard).
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Get one.
Have a lawyer send them a lovely letter telling them to cease and desist. If they do neither... sue the fuckraping bitchpiss out of them. What else?
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
Seriously. Contact a lawyer.
If you wrote that thing while you were working there, then you're out of luck. (I.e. company own the copyright and they have the right to change the license.) Even publishing the original opensource version might cause you some trouble if you can't prove it was originally oss, and you weren't changing the license.
IANAL
1. make sure the code is separately documented with the GPL licences in place, or they could claim it belonged to them in the first place and it was you that stole it.
2. contact the EFF
3. sue for copyright violation
4. profit?
something like that. step 2 is probably the most sensible part.
So you worked for them and where paid by them. You decided to release something as GPL (your post doesn't say if this was sanctioned by the powers that be), but considering your termination, one would think you stepped out of line?
But, the fact is, you where working for them, earning money producing something *they* own. If they decide to revoke a license on something *they* own, they are squarely in their rights to do so.
If the code is compiled (say from C, C++ or whatever), there will be telltale signs of its origin in the binary (unless they removed symbols). Something similar is true for Java. If they're distributing sources then it should be even easier to demonstrate.
Publish your demonstration that they're using OpenSource code, then send notices to various tech media and open source advocates. That might be enough to get the ball rolling.
...They can do what they want with it. Generally, code that you created while employed by a company, on their time, becomes the property of the company. Because they own it, it's their choice whether to license it out as open source or hold it as proprietary. You're not at the company any more, so you have no leverage of being a part of the company, leaving your complaints as your only tool at this point. You can approach your former bosses and coworkers (assuming you left on good terms) and remind them of why you thought it was valuable to release it in the first place. You can go public with a name-and-shame campaign. (but that may burn bridges) Or you can fork the old version (since they can't retract the license already granted) and move on with your life.
Remember, there were no nuclear weapons before women were allowed to vote.
Didn't they contribute your wages? Was it your job to write the code? Was the code written on work time or in work premesis? Most companies own any code written by their employees written on work time or using work rescources ( e.g. software licenses ). Some companies even own code you write at home on your own time on your own computer because you were employed by them at the time - then they truely contributed nothing, but you accepted those terms when you signed the contract.
You created this open source code for them, on their dime, on their equipment, as part of your employment for them, right?
That means they most likely own the copyright, as you created it as a work-for-hire. Check your employment contract.... or even if it doesn't say, it may nevertheless be the case.
If they own the copyright, that means they, as copyright owner, can issue the program under any license or trade name they like..... just like any other GPL copyright own can dual license their own code.
Tough luck
MobyDobie
Why don't you just fork it from the latest version when it still had the GPL/MIT license and release it in a new project? This should be even easier in your situation, because the company decided to change the name of the software, which means you can simply keep using the old name for the new project. This also doesn't confuse users, as they will probably remember and recognize the software by name.
Once you've got the new project up and running, you can of course sue your old employer for distributing open source licensed software without the proper licence and source code.
Pretty good is actually pretty bad.
Standard practice when hiring any employee is to write a legal agreement stating that any work you do there is "work for hire" and they own the copyright, not you. I *think* this can even be implied just by the fact that you were an employee, Unless you took specific action before writing this code, such as giving the company a specific license, or requireing them to let you contribute it, I think you are the one in *possible* legal danger here. (I am not a lawyer etc blah blah).
This is unfortunate but you need to get over the fact that work-for-hire does not belong to you and drop this quickly. The more you drum up publicity around this the more danger you could be in.
Chalk it up to a learning experience, and take solace in that you know what to do next time.
At the last company I worked with I asked my boss (a SVP level executive good enough for legal purposes) to sign a small contract with me that would allow me to bring in my own open source libraries I had built up over the years in exchange for letting me take code written on company time and contribute it back to the library or to an OSS project. I of course said this would not include anything proprietary to a client or any program as a whole, but rather utilities such as a date converter class or caching system. And that it was at my sole discretion to determine as best I could in good faith what code qualified to be contributed to open source.
PocketPermissions Android Permission Guide
If you did it on their dime they most likely own the code and can do whatever they want with it. Even if you didn't, they may still own it depending on what your contract says.
Out of curiosity what is the project?
A shark. The sort of guy that makes lesser lawyers wet their pants in fear. Seriously.
With that said: If you worked in the United States and were paid on a W-2 you're basically fucked. Unless you can prove every single keystroke of development on this product was done on "your time" with your own equipment it's almost certainly a work-for-hire under U.S. law, and therefore they own the code, not you.
On the other hand, if you were a 1099 "perma-temp," or selling your services to them as a corporation (i.e. a corp-to-corp arrangement) then who owns the code is an entirely different matter. In that scenario, you would need to look at your contract with them (you did sign a contract, right?) to determine whether you "own" the code you wrote for them. Generally speaking if you're not an employee (and you didn't sign anything giving them rights to your code) then you still own it.
If you live in another country then I have no idea what you should do. Good luck, though. Hate to see people ripped-off by their employer. What this really should be is an object lesson in why any coder with even moderate skill should be insisting on corp-to-corp arrangements. It's extra paperwork for you, and a PITA at tax-time, but if you invent something really revolutionary it's one of the only ways to keep your employer from stealing your idea under the "Work-for-hire" provisions of copyright law.
Of course, as always, IANALBIPOOS.
Who did what now?
Did you do this as a part of your job, or was it something that you developed in your own free time? If you did this as a part of your job, then they own the code, NOT YOU! Even if you developed it in your own free time there are still some situations where your employer can claim ownership of your work. If you are certain that they have no right to claim ownership of your work then I suggest you get some legal help. The best thing to do, if you want to make sure that your employer can't just take your code and claim it as their own, is to never actually bring your code in to work. Work on it at home on your own computer. Don't put it on any computer or server owned by your employer. You might just as well not even tell them about it.
I didn't read the linked article, but I did skim the summary. Depending on the contract that you signed and the local laws, that may legally be their code. If I were you, I'd consult a lawyer familiar with intellectual property before I did anything else. Make sure that you have a copy of the contract. If, in the opinion of the lawyer, the code is actually yours, then you should probably follow up with a cease-and-desist letter, courtesy of the lawyer. This won't be all that expensive. Hell, even if the situation is muddier than you'd like, they may still back down, if you can get your lawyer to send an appropriately threatening letter. Depending on the size of the company, they may not be financially capable of defending themselves from a lawsuit. Depending on how ethically challenged you and your lawyer happen to be, this may actually prove to be your best bet, if they are legally in the right. If they blow you off (which is very likely, unless they're very small), then you're going to have to actually bring them to small claims court. A lawyer is not strictly necessary here, but, again, you'd be foolish to avoid using one.
I mean, seriously, what do you expect people to say, other than "consult a lawyer"?
Learn from it. If they pay, its theirs.
File a formal Copyright registration with the Library of Congress
Do that first.
Then file a DMCA takedown.
Then sue.
Use the resources of the EFF to back up your case. Even if they won't take it on, at least they can point you in the right direction.
--
BMO
Ain't nothing good gonnna come from it, dude !! It is, as you say, "FREE". You lost nothing !! Hold on if you have nothing to lose, otherwise !! Move on !! Move ON !! MOVE ON !!
You stated you did this separate from work...that makes it yours. If you invented it on their time and dollar, and you were hired as a programmer, they probably own the copyright. But if you did it on your own time, even if you signed some sort of contract, if you invented it on your own time and hardware, you likely have a claim to the code. And if you also GPLed it and made it public, they can't really get rid of it. If they have a claim to the copyright, they certainly can make a proprietary version of it, though, even if it's also GPLed. That's the crux... do they have claim to the copyright? If so, it can be both GPLed (by you) and proprietary (by them).
But if you just post the code, what's the problem? You claim it's GPLed, so posting it is not an issue.
Seriously, what's the problem? Post the code, make it public. Then when they try to make GPL code proprietary, you can simply let someone else go after them. You're whining like you're being harmed. You're not. You're simply trying to prevent someone from stealing, even though nobody is really being harmed. Sticking your neck out for justice reasons is not an issue, as long as you realize you're just trying to "stick it to the man".
Obvious. Have a lawyer send them a lovely letter telling them to cease and desist. If they do neither... sue the fuckraping bitchpiss out of them. What else?
It is not obvious. Who owns the copyright? He said he was an employee, so *IF* the code was "work product" he may only have had the right to GPL the code as an agent of the company. Since he is no longer with the company he no longer would have such authority. If the company is the copyright holder they are free to "fork" it and go proprietary. It is not clear if the code is employee work product so nothing is obvious.
2.) When you get proof they publish/sell your work you get a lawyer to write them a notice of infringement.
When no 1. never happened you are probably out of luck and only an expensive lawyer could help you.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Quite aside from the fact they may own the copyright under the Work for Hire doctrine, you said the code's under the MIT License anyway.
That allows them to distribute the product, or its derivatives with or without source code, under any product name they like!
So:
if the code is a work-for-hire = you lose, they own the copyright
if the code is your copyright = you lose, you've already given them permission to take it proprietary
MobyDobie
FTFS:
I was terminated from a company that I worked day and night for for about 5 years. During the last 2 years of that time, I created a simple web framework and contributed it to open source. We had always used open source, so it was high time we became a contributor! Recently I found out that they have removed all of the licenses from the files (GPL and MIT), gave it a silly name, and have the intention of marketing it as a product. What should I do? I am trying to get past the fact that I am upset that I was terminated â" that pissed me off â" but the fact that they are taking credit for my work and making it proprietary is really bothering me! What should I do?
I just might have found the reason for your termination. Were you doing things that went beyond what your employer allowed you to do? You were employed and you were so called 'contributing' code under GPL without your employer explicit permission to do this, and from the text it looks like you have so called 'contributed' the code that you wrote for your employer.
This is like saying: I took this guys stuff and 'contributed' it for the good of the public, but I didn't ask the guy if he is OK with it and now he is forcing everybody to return the stuff I 'contributed' to him and he called the cops. I am really pissed off, what should I do?
Yeah, I think I did find the reason for your termination.
You can't handle the truth.
Did you do work on the project while on the job or on your employer's premises? Then likely you ceded copyright to them automatically. Anything you do while on work time is a work for hire (and this is generally explicitly spelled out in employment contracts). This means the employer owns it, to their benefit and your detriment. If they own the copyright, they are free to relicense code as they see fit. If you have an old copy of the code licensed under MIT, GPL, or another free distribution license, you can redistribute that code on your own website and they can't do a damn thing about that version, but absolutely nothing is forcing them to continue hosting the open source version, and nothing is preventing them from relicensing the open source version to proprietary as they own the copyright and thus have the right to do so.
Now, if you didn't use your employer's resources to work on the project at all, you might have a case. That's not what your blog post would lead me to believe, though. Your best bet would be to fork the last available open source version and continue working on that. They still own the copyright but they can't do anything about continued redistribution of a fork, assuming it was ever authorized to be licensed as open source at all.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
So its up to them what they do with it.
Wait for them to start earning money on it, then sue them. This way they waste more resources. For bonus points, try to make it into a commercial product, then you can include the money they unrightfully took from you in the suit.
IANAL and you should obviously consult with one before doing anything silly.
..for Oracle/sun/MySQL?
***Assuming*** the code in question was employee work product and the company is the actual copy holder this incident raises an interesting issue. If you are the sole FOSS advocate at your company, and you get company approval to release code under FOSS, your "mission" seems to not be over. It seems you have to advocate/convert others if you wish the code to remain FOSS after you leave. If there is no one around who cares then the company is perfectly within their rights to fork the code and continue in a proprietary fashion.
If they didn't agree to the license in the first place... you're screwed. But if they did - screw them. Assuming you made a point of getting your employers approval in writing for the original license - tell them to give you a hefty pay rise or you'll move Richard Stallman and an aviary of his favourite parrots into the lobby, and introduce him to all the major clients as the new Sales Manager - then, take the money and get yourself a job with a future.
Seriously.
Man ... I don't know where you worked (country) but in my French contract it is specified that everything I create in the company is owned by the company.
Seem fair to me, they employ you.
In fact I wonder if you are not the one who made a mistake by making the company stuff opensource without their consent ...
But as I'm really not sure about this, I agree with previous comments, contact a lawyer ...
Is this the project? and if so are you calming that code in the gov.nj.framework namespace wasn't written for anyone in particular?
I not only RTFA, I also read the comments.
And to the OP, I say: tread carefully. Not only is there a possibility that your work would be considered "work for hire" (and hence not yours to decide how to license), you should be careful about making threats. Saying things like:
I’m going to report this to GNU project and warn them that if they don’t bring to code back in-line with the license, that I will send a letter to their customers to make them aware of the situation.
To me, that reads an awful lot like extortion. Not only is that not going to win any friends with your former employer (So what if they fired you? For all you know you'll run into the same people again in the future, don't give them a reason to fire you again), publicly announcing this as your intention is a really bad idea when you've just been sacked and are looking for work.
When you publish code under the GPL, you cannot revoke that licence.
Also, the author claims he wrote the code in his free time, uncompensated. That would, in most jurisdictions and under most work contracts, mean that it isn't in fact work for hire. He should probably first talk it over with the company, explaining the legal situation, and if they don't comply send them a DMCA notice.
Eat him.
He'd only enjoy it
Simplest problem ever ... it is not your code, it belongs to the company that employed you
Sorry to blunt but it is attitudes like that causing issues for IT folks progressing through companies - no other profession (eg engineers, marketing, finance, etc) would dare complain about "not getting credit" if a company went in a different direction with their work after they'd left.
The OP also said, in response to the first guy who asked pretty much everything that has been asked here in the slashdot thread:
Hi Llama, I have no such agreement. It was done on my own time with the company’s full support. They knew it was open source. I think now that I’m not at the company, they want to “control” it. As far as I understand it, they need to abide by the license. I think the tricky part is compelling them to abide by the license
Assuming this is all true (that he had no agreement with the company to cede over his rights to work done on his own time), I seriously doubt that it is legal for the company to do this. It seems to me that he was pretty careful from the outset to ensure that no such agreement was in the contract -- and in that case, by default, the copyright remains with him as the original author.
I’m going to report this to GNU project and warn them that if they don’t bring to code back in-line with the license, that I will send a letter to their customers to make them aware of the situation.
To me, that reads an awful lot like extortion.
How exactly is this extortion? Mere coercion is not extortion. He's not asking for money, property or services in exchange for all of this -- he just wants the source code (assuming it's rightfully his) to be licensed properly and that the company may not sell it as proprietary.
Pet peeve: Profane people propagating perfunctory pedantry.
suck it up, and write some new code.
You guys? Not so much.
From this information, it seems they are regarding themselves as the rightful copyright owner. If this is the case, nothing can stop them from re-licensing it as they please. That said, code released as GPL should remain GPL, simple as that, but duel licensing is pretty common.
So the real issue is: who is the copyright owner. The outcome of that depends on the local laws and the contract you had. If you sincerely think you are the copyright owner, you could claim the profit they make from it. Proving you are the copyright owner might be harder, and most of all, costly.
If i were you. I'd just work on your own GPL'd code. Continue to distribute it. Maybe on your webpage dedicate a page to this very issue. And, apart from gathering as much proof as you can to protect yourself from a potentional lawsuit from their side, do exactly entirely nothing, except working on your project and make sure it's better than their product. Making your GPL code better than their commercial code seems to me the best way to get back on them.
A glitch a day keeps the bugs away.
Communism died with the Berlin Wall being torn down. Why the hell did the GPL and FSF not follow? Will they never learn?
The code appears to have been written on the company's time. No matter what license the guy chose to put on it, it seems he overstepped his authority (if he actually had any authority) and had no right to call the stuff GPL'd. Just because someone puts a GPL license on a piece of code doesn't make it GPL'd. You have to have the right to do that, and merely being the author doesn't make you the owner and doesn't confer that right on you.
Never, ever make the mistake of thinking you own any code you write, just because you created it.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
If the company agreed to open the code under the GPL and is now backing out, then there's a problem. The GPL is non-revokable, meaning there's no way for them to release the code and at some later point change their mind and slap a proprietary license on the same code: that code is open forever. Moreover, there's the viral aspect of the GPL, so if they are using GPLed code in their proprietary product, they still need to release the entire source under the GPL!
However, where the OP may have gone wrong is if he was working on a work-for-hire basis (check your contract), which means he wasn't the copyright holder and wasn't allowed to release the code in the first place.
It was not your decision to make the code GPL. It is our code to do with as we please.
Take these 7 bitcoins and STFU. Loser. Things like this are why we fired your neckbeard ass.
Whoever has the most money for the most & nastiest lawyers and endless appeals, etc etc, wins.
America...what a country!
If I do something at home it does not belong to my employer. If I build a shed in my backyard, that does not belong to my employer.
An employer that does this is exploiting you. Employers will try to get things from you for free if you let them.
Slashdot needs Geekcode | Can anyone recommend any good SCIFI? My tastes: Foundation, Startide Rising, CITY, Ringworld,
That's ridiculous. The code that I write at home has no bearing on my work place. It belongs to me and soley me unless I choose to licence it.
It is a violation to go from GPL to closed source and distribute it if you do not own the source code in question.
Rent seeking lawyers do not understand code, they should have no place in deciding ownership and property rights.
Slashdot needs Geekcode | Can anyone recommend any good SCIFI? My tastes: Foundation, Startide Rising, CITY, Ringworld,
Harald Welte started http://gpl-violations.org/ for protecting his rights and the general public license in 2003. Maybe you can get help from that project, at least they have experience in that kind of lawsuits.
You need to check your employment contract. If the contract assigns all the intellectual property you create to the company there is really nothing you can do about this - they are entitled to do what they want with the software if you agreed to assign it to them in your contract.
You could start a website using the real product's name and offering professional consultancy and services.
That way you can make money of your old product and stick it to your exploitative employer. You can say you were an ex-developer for the product. That way people could trust you.
Get yourself on Google results for the product's name. You could even have a page explaining why you're not an employee anymore, providing the full story. (Them stealing your code.)
Slashdot needs Geekcode | Can anyone recommend any good SCIFI? My tastes: Foundation, Startide Rising, CITY, Ringworld,
IANAL, but... I suppose there is a copyright notice in there somewhere. Is it Copyright (C) 20xx My Old Employer Inc. or Copyright (C) 20xx My Name? Whoever has the copyright gets to choose the license for future versions. If it's your name in the copyright notice, you probably have a better case than if it's theirs.
To clarify, I don't mean make a website and pretend to be the vendor but brand your website as a consultant for that product.
You could use your real name website, John Doe and then have a page called WhizBang Consultancy. "I am an experienced consultant for the WhizBang line of products having 2 years development experience..."
People searching the product name on Google should hopefully find you, you could offer cheaper rates to your ex-employer.
Slashdot needs Geekcode | Can anyone recommend any good SCIFI? My tastes: Foundation, Startide Rising, CITY, Ringworld,
The answer to your Slashdot question is trivially simple: take everything you know to a copyright lawyer, and get a consultation to see if you have a case. Then you and your lawyer decide how to proceed from there.
Do not, Not, NOt, NOT get your legal advice from Slashdot.
The above notwithstanding, do NOT threaten your former employer. If any threats are to be made, or actions are to be taken, leave it to your lawyer. Otherwise, you are just likely to dig yourself a very, very deep legal hole.
You are a professional? Then act like one.
1st of all: Don't get all worked up. Nobody cares squat about your or your former employers web framework, of which there are literally thousands out there. Take the best parts of it, refactor them and contribute them to Zend, Symfony, Cake, Joomla, Drupal, Typo3 or some other big-time project that actually matters (asuming you wrote it in PHP) or something simular for the language chosen. If your Framework is worth anything, you'll be able to do that quickly and join the coreteam of some big-time FOSS webkit in no time and your credit will gain in weeks by orders of magnitude compared to working semi-free for some crappy freeloading web-outfit nobody has ever heard of for the last 5 years.
2nd: If they paid you to write it, chances are they own it, and can do with it as they like.
3rd: If you wrote it on their contract and in your free time and commited significant parts of goodwill into it without getting paid, chances are it's legally dual-licenced ... or some equivalent of that. That means they can do with it whatever they want and you can go on and continue publishing it however you please.
But once again: Nobody gives a shit, so I wouldn't risk legal action from some small-business asshole I once was dealing with if they discover you and think it's sporting to go after some sorry-ass developer who has even less money and power than they. Unless, that is, you have money and time to spare and like to send a small private army of lawyers of yours their way - for fun or profit or both. In that case, be my guest, fetch a lawyer or two and sue them into next wednesday. And please keep us posted on our blog. I, in that case, for one, am going to sit back in my deckchair, grab a bag of popcorn and watch with joyfull glee and delight as some sleazy web-sweatshop gets what they deserve as they are gutted and torn to chunky kibbles by a righfully enraged FOSS deveper. :-) ...
Yet again: Since I guess you've got neither money or extra time to spare, I'd let it be, cover my ass with legal statements on your ownage of the code from some buddies in case they want to get pissy with you in the future and then just carry on with your life. Preferably as a core member of some larger web project actually doing something usefull.
My 2 cents.
FYI: I too developed a FOSS product for a partner pulling in big time projects. We published it as FOSS and, since they brought in fair money, I agreed to dual-licence the code, which they didn't understand at the time. When we parted, they rebranded the product, removed my name, claimed an advancement over the old version - which didn't exsist, aside from a new logo and a flashy website - and disappeared into insignificance two years later. The codebase still is GPL 3 and I'm ready to continue with the product whenever I feel like it. I have witnesses to back my claims should anyone come after me. Which I really don't expect to happen, since I'm halfway cool and professional with my former partners. And I'd redo the codebase completely anyway if I should ever consider picking it up again.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
You KNOW they're using pirated code unlicensed (yours). So dib them on to the BSA who will
a) pay for the investigation
b) give you a freeebie wodge for the tip
this is the true value of a backdoor into your code.
I smell that they took your red swingline stapler, I would deal deal with that in the most efficient way possible. Just forward any envelopes you happen to find my way.
Don't do anything. What do you care?
You should go back there, burn the building down, and then write them a note explaining that they'd best not fuck with you again. ...and this is why you don't ask for advice on Slashdot.
1. Hire a lawyer to determine the copyright ownership of your code. Dig out any employment agreement you had with your previous employer.
2. If you are the copyright owner, register your copyright.
3. If the company continues to distribute your code, you can get massive statutory damages.
I tend to agree here, the question is whether it was a work for hire or not. He also says "I was terminated from a company that I worked day and night for for about 5 years."
A few points:
1. It makes it very difficult to argue that you "did it on your own time" when you begin the post by admitting you worked there "day and night for for about 5 years."
2. Does the person have proof that the company "knew it was open source"? Would people there admit it?
3. If 2 is no, then did you have the authority to release it as open source under those licenses?
I'm all for making people abide by the license but there are a fair number of open questions here that could make it difficult to prove and that is what it comes down to really. Is it a he-said-she-said situation?
I don't understand the fuss, if you wanted to keep copyrights you should have let your employer know your intentions and done the necessary paperwork *before* you were terminated.
I was in a similar situation about an year back. I wrote a GPL cross platform application(in my spare time) to interact with my employer's web services(their application was windows only, i didn't even have protocol reference, I reverse engineered the whole thing ). When I left my job, they had all the rights to it, I just renamed the project and maintained it in my spare time. I am working on the newer version of it since my ex employer has added some new features to the web service.
I code for fun, sometimes I do not get the credit I deserve but unless it's something that took me years to write, I won't be too bothered by the application being 'hijacked' as long as I have access to the code I wrote.
Was it ever your decision to make it open source? This sounds like work product to me, which means your previous employers owns it. Unless you have something in your contract that states you retain ownership of your code, it is theirs to do what they please with. Get over it.
Words are only yours until someone else uses them...
Do you own it or do they?
"Hi Llama, I have no such agreement. It was done on my own time with the companyâ(TM)s full support. They knew it was open source. I think now that Iâ(TM)m not at the company, they want to âoecontrolâ it. As far as I understand it, they need to abide by the license. I think the tricky part is compelling them to abide by the license."
I was in the same situation and it really depend on how the support was. If it was pre-paid financial support , then definitively it could very well fall into work-for-hire. If it was only technical support the company won't have any standing in many juridiction. If on the other hand they paid money *after* the work was done it gets murky. In my case I explicitly requested per writing that the copyright of the work is mine. If I was this guy I would really hire a lawyer before getting sued by the company.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
As silly as this might sound, take them to court. The GPL and MIT licenses are just as valid as any proprietary pos that there swapping them for. I don't know exactly how this would work or even if you could do it but if you wrote the software and you did all the work on the software then I'm sure there is a clause somewhere that protects your time investment in your creation.
Or if you still have the software dump it on line and open a bug finding contest for finding exploits into the software. I'm not sure what happens when the license is changed out on a later version, would this effect the early versions as well?
Synopsis: Nobody has any idea what the specifics of this guy's employment arrangement were, nor how the employer came to be in possession of the disputed code. Several people have asked for more details, but the picture remains murky. All suggestions and comments--well-intentioned though they may be--are therefore based on speculation. (Oh, and prostitution either is or is not a victimless crime or not-crime.)
"that I worked day and night for for about 5 years." hmmm, seems to me that even you know that you were working "day and night" for the company.
Recommendation number 1. STOP DOING THAT.
If you work for a company "off the clock", you won't get paid for it and you have no rights to what you are working on.
Recommendation number 2. LEARN THAT COMPANIES ARE PROFIT CENTRIC AND SOULLESS.
Companies don't have loyalty. Companies don't have values. They talk a great game, because it is PROFITABLE to talk such a game. Every last company out there is filled with soulless middle and upper management bureaucrats who would sell your very soul for a buck. They don't do any 'real' work. They leech off of everyone else, and get paid handsomely to do it. NEVER forget that.
1 the dispute whether a pice of code written on your free time but used on your job is your copyright or your employers copyright is complicated. i woild argue that using/testing the code at work and then magically switching roles when leaving the door is prpblematic
2 it seems your former employer has not tried to sue you for gpling the code. i would recommend not to stimulate a legal test whether this was lawful but let them ignore the issue for some time (that would make their decision to gpl it a better legal fact since possible damages are not caused by you alone)
3 thay being said ot was probably stupid to mention it here. by this you did the maximum damage to your former employer. everybody pf relevance will now realize there is a free alternative. and your employer will realizw this too
4 it would be nice if people understand there is a difference between copyright and license. if i own code i can release it under any license i like.
5 the best for both of you, you and your employer would probably be to sign a short agreement that you wont sue each other abput this and that none of you talks about this. you may have fucked up the latter point already.
You say
I was terminated from a company that I worked day and night for for about 5 years. During the last 2 years of that time, I created a simple web framework and contributed it to open source. We had always used open source, so it was high time we became a contributor!
Were you an employee?
If you were an employee, and you created the "simple web framework" on company time, you will want to check your employee agreement and/or handbook. It almost certainly says that anything you create on company time belongs to the company.
Was your job writing "a simple web framework"?
If you were hired to write "a simple web framework", you did not have the right to "contribute it to open source". Regardless of your feeling about whether it was "high time we became a contributor", the work was not yours to contribute. You were doing "work for hire" and you do not hold the copyright on the work created. Rather, your employer holds the copyright and is the one who gets to decide to contribute it. As such, they are within their rights to fire you for any number of reasons from insubordination to attempted theft of intellectual property.
Remember, boys and girls, when one is hired to do work for a company, the product of that work does not remain one's own, instead it becomes property of said company who hired one to do the work. This is called "work for hire" and is covered in the copyright laws.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Let it go. Let them do whatever they think is right.
Instead:
Continue your work. Do it better. Leave them in the wake.
Succeed by invention, not by lawyers.
If they could what would it mean to license it in this form or that or another. So they infringe on your license and the rules are so clear you don't even need a lawyer imho.
then it's more a case of you "stealing" their code and sticking GPL/MIT licensing on something you don't own the copyright to.
Of course is derived from GPLed code then that licensing is required in the first place.
It sounds like he's written his own code in his own time that he volunteered to the project. If so, then what the business is doing is just as wrong as downloading open source and then claiming it to be their own.
the fact is, you where working for them, earning money producing something *they* own
Not necessarily. I write my own libraries at home, so that code is entirely mine. Then, when working on client projects, I sometimes volunteer my libraries, meaning that I'm paid to put them in. But the libraries are still mine, just as any other 3rd party library belongs to its creator. And if one of my clients claimed "creation dibs" on my code, then I probably would be a little miffed too.
But it's not stealing, right? You still have access to the code your wrote, no? Or are you claiming they took away your copy of the code? You gotta love all the mental gymnastics on this site about how piracy isn't theft yet the violation of the copyright to OSS code is almost always called "stealing" or "theft".
It all depends what was in your contract (and it also depends on which country you live in). If you wrote the code during the day at work, it certainly isn't yours. If coding is your dayjob, and you also code in your sparetime, you should certainly have it correctly stated in your contract that anything done in your sparetime is yours and your boss can't lay claim on it (unless ofcourse it's based on work you've done during the day), otherwise you're in a situation which you are residing in now. Yes your boss can lay claim on your code you've done in your spare time, because it is very propable that you've thought or even worked on it during your dayjob. If you were a busdriver or something it wouldn't be possible for your boss because it's a completely different line of work.
And removing the license is in the same line, if they 'own' the code they can do whatever they want with it, even if you put whatever license on it.
As I said, it depends on the laws of your country, but in the united states/UK/Netherlands I know this to be true. So make sure you've have it written in your contract that your boss cannot lay claim on your code you've written in your sparetime so you won't be in a situation like this (it makes it easier for you to do something about it if he does use your code without your permission).
Reporting it in a public place is a good start. It may be useable as evidence.
Contact a Lawyer really really FAST!
Other options include attempting to Copyright your work before they have a chance to, and sending them a Cease and Desist. but you should talk to a layer first.
Just cope.
If that was a law, no businesses would ever be founded. (Look how many companies started up from ex-employees with other ex-employees.)
Many people have ideas while they're at work but they may be completely unrelated to the employer's industry.
What you say is very concerning as it reflects the break down of the individual and a person's right to free thought.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjMCaw4qzjg
You know talk is cheap and those rumours aren't nice? When I fall asleep I don't think I'll survive the night...
Slashdot needs Geekcode | Can anyone recommend any good SCIFI? My tastes: Foundation, Startide Rising, CITY, Ringworld,
Get a lawyer and be prepared to fight.
I would point out that removing licenses is a deliberate action so they either think they own the copyright, or they’re a pack of sleazeballs that stole your code on purpose. Either way it establishes they are not willing to negotiate so if you want to prevail you are going to have to fight.
If you used company resources to develop it, then you were an idiot for not getting their permission in writing.
But consider also if you have more to lose by fighting this.
Suing your ex boss is probably a career ender, and your ex boss knows that.
Finally, no matter what happens, next company you work for, get an agreement in writing that makes this “work for hire” relationship (or lack thereof) explicit and don’t count on the law to side with you. Writing does something legal assumptions cannot, namely, establish facts.
If your next boss (if your legal troubles don’t make him shy about hiring you) isn’t willing to sign any such agreement, take it as a sign they are going to try to grub whatever you do.
This is a world full of cheats, liars, and thieves. You should ALWAYS get things in writing.
....Did you write the code on company time and/or resources?
Regards;
Ask the GPL Compliance Lab. That's what they do.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
I've been laid off twice in a 20+ year (so far) coding career. It sucks, but it's usually nothing personal. Some angel investor money didn't come through, some sales contract didn't get signed, and now they have to cut staff. It happens. I've never been out of work more than a month.
Look at it from the company's side. They probably paid you a lot of money to build software for them. They may not have given you permission to GPL your code, or more likely they didn't understand or didn't care about the legal aspects of open source development. It may be hard to distinguish between the code your wrote on your own and the code you wrote for them, especially if you were a contractor working at home.
Emotionally, you should separate the circumstances of your leaving the company from the behavior of the company with respect to your GPL code. Suppose you had gotten a better job and left voluntarily. Would you feel the same way about your former employer using your open source code?
Consider approaching the company and say that you'd like to continue development on your toolkit as an open source toolkit. They'll probably agree. I live in a 4M pop metro area, and I am always running into people I worked with before. If you get a reputation for burning employers, it will come back to you eventually.
You DO still have your source code right? Take a copy of your source code. Compare it to the code they removed your name from and are claiming as their own. Show your lawyer the results. Sue for copywrite violation.
If you make waves then you should be prepared for them to sue you. They likely have far more resources than you do and they can ruin your life. Even if you win it could easily cost tens of thousands of dollars and/or drive you into bankruptcy.
This seems like a foolish quest. You open sourced the code so it's not like you are expecting to make any money off of the code anyway. Unless you are wealthy, you are going to risk your financial future for nothing but pride.
Note: The above comments assume you are in the U.S. In other countries, the outcome might be different.
You find that most of the free GPL lawyers are too busy to help. If it really matter to you, borrow the cash for an IP lawyer. You WILL NOT WIN if you don't have proof that your company in an signed document said it was OK to GPL the code. If you have that, then just run with your fork and call it a day, and wait until they come after you. As long as you were an employee (W-2) of theirs, even if you worked at home, that code is theirs. If it was legally GPL'd then it is everyone's, and this discussion is pointless. If your were a contractor for them (W-9?). Then it depends on the terms of your contract, . Don't expect to pay less than $10,000 for a decent IP lawyer if there is any conflict between you and the ex-company. Chances are you're going to have to take your lumps and walk away, but IANAL. I just know that I JUST finished paying my lawyer, and my employer and I have a GOOD relationship. It took 2+ years, but now I have a decent contract with them that clearly states what I own, and what they do. Also remember, you can always start from scratch, and if you haven't rewritten your code for the first time, you probably need to anyway, regardless of the legal situation. :)
Report them to the BSF for using pirated software (yours) and sit back and rub your hands together menacingly as they release the hounds!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
It is only when prostitution is considered a crime by society do the incentives to commit prostitution create situations where we end up with victims (pimps exploiting runaways, sex-trafficking, etc.)
Wrong. Pimping and human trafficking are about profit, period (from the perspective of the trafficker). The risk/reward ratio, as compared to smuggling drugs or guns, is much more favorable--and a lot of cops and laypeople are not going to recognize or report trafficking. That is true regardless of whether prostitution is legal, and legalizing prostitution makes it harder, not easier, to end trafficking.
If someone can rent a girl's body out, make a fortune, never have to pay her, and have only a very tiny chance of getting arrested (because, among other things, people think prostitution is a victimless crime), then they will do that regardless of whether prostitution is legal. Even if--and I stress the if--you had great certification programs for high-end and even middle-price prostitutes, where someone actually had to (for example) check a registered database before paying, it will not get rid of the problem that puts millions of teens around the world and hundreds of thousands in the US at risk every year. It will actually normalize the activity in the minds of buyers and sometimes-unknowing rapists who can't afford the high end legalized market.
Prostitution in and of itself is a victimless crime. If two consenting adults decide to exchange money for sex, where is the crime?
If two consulting adults decide to exchange money for sex, maybe--maybe--there's no problem. But when it becomes a common practice, there is a problem. When prostitution becomes legalized in an area, demand outstrips supply, prices go up enough that traffickers move in, and traffickers also provide services that registered prostitution doesn't, such as not using condoms, etc... The result is a high concentration of trafficking and a society that, in that area, looks the other way even more than society normally does.
The problem is not the consenting adults. The problem is that most of the time, even if a buyer cares, he will not even know whether the other person is a consenting adult. It is *easy* for man to rationalize abuse and even rape. Just as it is easy for the actual traffickers to rationalize their behavior, their buying and selling of women--their slave trade.
Check out River of Innocents for a primer. Or look up the Polaris Project.
-- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
First, clarify the terms under which you were working. Be absolutely as accurate as you can be. This includes providing details of which documents your employer provided you at year end.
Second, you may need to tetras your contract. It is entirely possible you have given them the right to use the code how they see fit. The contract can overrode the default of the (First).
Third, if you wrote the framework and own the copyright to it (even if they do as well) you are in a good position. They are unlikely to be competing against you directly and you can continue to use the code you have. (if you do not have the last version of the code you wrote, but they do then you obviously wrote it on their time using there equipment and they may own the exclusive rights to it.)
Even if you have the latest version of the code you may need to clarify with your former employers what they think they own. If they think they own the exclusive copyright to the code it is in your interest to get them to understand they do not as they will sue you if they find you using it. Unlike you they can find the cash for a decent lawyer and write it off as a business expense win or lose. You are more likely to just go broke in the process.
If asking nicely doesn't work (and it probably won't), Lawyer Up!
1. Did you write it on work time. 2. Even if you did not write it on work time, did you write it whilst employed there, after signing a contract signing over rights to all works you produce (whilst under their employment) related to the industry you work in, to the company?
If either 1 or 2 are true, then sorry, the company owns it. Workplace contracts: read them.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
um, make sure it's available somewhere else under GPL, if you are sure of your and its legal standing, and let them own a proprietary fork if they like?
You lost me at "company I used to work for". If you did this on their dime then they own it. It doesn't matter your attachment to the code, it isn't yours. They are free to do what they wish with it. Your only option is to rewrite it from scratch and learn a lesson from this experience.
I have a question regarding this.
Isn't it illegal to own person's private time this way?
I think, even though a contract says so, it should be not valid. As far as I know slavery was abolished in the US some time ago. If a company does not pay you for your out of work time, then they have not right to whatever you do then. I would understand using company equipment (or rather company offices, because even any equipment, when used at home is rather considered as rented), or doing something within your working time, but what you wrote seems to me as a form of slavery.
The argument, that your additional home time work would affect your paid work should also not sustain in a court, because in case you cannot fulfill your duties, your company has the right to end the contract, but not to own someone's private time.
Even if a company payed for someone's training, it is still weird, i.e. I would understand the right to demand compensation for any training if one quits within certain limited time of the investment.
I am really interested in a layer's opinion on this matter, i.e. whether US law really would make such a contract valid, and on what basis. Doesn't it violate some basic principles of every human being freedom?
You say it is 99% of contracts, do you mean in IT or in general in the US it is the case? It is really shocking that people accept such conditions. Is it really so bad in the US that people are so desperate to get a job, or they simply do not care, or maybe in most of the cases are not aware of anything?
If you're a programmer, ask permission before using LGPL. If you want to use ANY GPL source, get permission in writing, letting your employer know the benefits vs. dangers of using GPL in a commercial product.
As a programmer, your job is to provide quality code that does what its supposed to do, using licenses that benefit the employer.
If you're an employer of programmers, you need to make sure you specify in writing that employers are not to use GPL in any of their work unless you want to live by the GPL.
Of course, if you're a programmer and come on board and a some of the source code is already GPL, then its a good idea to have a discussion about the future direction of their intellectual property.
Jeeze guys, have some common sense. Most businesses aren't hiring you to improve repository of free source code... they're out to make a buck by selling software/services that aren't available anywhere else.. so they can make some money over and above what they pay you.
If it WAS GPL'ed, then anyone who has downloaded it can distribute it. Find one of them, get the code, and distribute it yourself. Since you were the originator, you are the most qualified to maintain it, so their non-libre and non-gratuis, unmaintained code will be facing code that is free in both senses, and properly maintained.
Oh, and while you're at it, sue them. If it's not their code, then they have no right to sell it. I'm assuming you put your name on the originally distributed code, so it shouldn't be that problematic.
Find a lawyer, and talk to the EFF yesterday, if not sooner. They have lawyers and money, and this is what they *do*.
mark
I guess if you're not an environmentalist: one concerned with conserving valuable properties of the eco-systems which, among other things, sustain us, you must be a vacuumist: one who is convinced humans are clever enough to live in a stripped-bare, repurposed, fully engineered world with no help from non-human natural life processes. Well why don't you launch yourself into space in an advanced tin-can for the long haul and see how well that works out for you.
Have you ever considered how many fewer prostitutes there might have been hanging out on the street if society had supported them better without inducing guilt and shame?
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
I didn't read your post, but I did read the title. I think you're wrong.
It is probably less work for a programmer like you to rewrite code than to fight some company over a few open source projects.
I probably wouldn't even try to fork the GPL versions, because who knows if that company is going to come after you for releasing the code. Even if they have no case, they could still cause you some real legal expense. Also, keeping that project up to date would only make it easier for them to steal the updates and integrate them into their internal version.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Comment removed based on user account deletion
get a laywer. Once you have it copyrighted, the laywer can sue the pants off them :)
Only 'flamers' flame!
Such a union is completely unnecessary. It's really simple: Don't agree to bullshit contracts. Cross things out, walk away if the potential employer won't accept that.
I'd be rather skeptical that such a contract would be enforceable in court anyway, since it is just another potential means for the company to go after you if you siphoned-off their intellectual property or worked on their nickel for your own stuff. When you sign something like that, it makes it that much harder for you to claim something as your own unless you can prove it was all original work, done on your own time, and with your own resources. Any grey areas, and they probably do have a claim to your work. It's like a non-compete agreement, which are probably not worth defending unless there's an egregious violation of trust (e.g., the departing employee stealing clients).
That aside, it's really on the individual to look out for his own interests. This is the only point I agree with Ayn Rand's diatribes on-- a limited application of rational self interest. That's the rationale behind unions, but it isn't limited to a union framework. It behooves every working individual to determine his/her own value and to refuse to accept less or sell-out in unconscionable ways. I have outright laughed at laughable job offers, and I would sooner work in retail for $8/hr than disrespect myself and damage my profession working for $12/hr in an IT job that really should be paying well over $20/hour. Some poor, desperate fools do that, rather than holding out for a fair wage, I'm sure of it. Unions are really just a way of enforcing the situation where nobody can be stupid and sell-out everyone else because its an all-or-none contract.
There is a reason that unions tend to be limited to labor & vocational trades and not professions. Anyone thinking IT is suitable for unionization should consider that it's much harder to quantify professional work and qualifications, but unions rely on standardizing the worker and then basing a contract off that. Each worker must fit exactly in the mold. That means everyone is assumed to have the same level of skills (based on the level of seniority and training), excellence, and overall productivity. That's why "not my job" is the Union mantra-- you must do your job and you WILL be punished for doing more than what your contract allows you to do. IT is really specialized and so many folks wear so many hats, I wouldn't see that working well, and while the protections of a contract are nice to have, they limit your freedom to set your own value and to actually just get your job done. It's really much better to have associations of individuals that let them compare notes and encourage everyone to do right by themselves and by their colleagues, but without being bound by union rules.
Personally, one thing I always do during an interview is check on the company's IP policies. All companies I have worked for have thus far can be summarized by the following:
any work done on using company resources (time, equipment, etc.) belongs to the company
However, some employers (and academic institutions) take anything you create in any manner while you are employed with them (or are a student at the institution).
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
The Electronic Frontier Foundation has a history of providing legal assistance in GPL violation cases.
Did you mount a military-grade, variable-focus MASER on an unlicensed artificial intelligence?
Ever wonder how many fewer women and children would be sold into slavery if prostitution were less tolerated? You think if brothels were legal and well regulated that the sex slaves would be a thing of the past? In Amsterdam on the fringes, many of the women are slaves. Sure, in the legal brothels, the women do it willingly, but if you think the only prostitutes in Amsterdam are in the legal brothels you are naive or stupid. Any place where prostitution is legal or tolerated, there are more sex slaves.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
According to the legal system here in Italy related to I.P. made under employee contract, everything you create is I.P. propriety of the company you work for.
What you can do is to oblige them to report your name (you're the inventor/author of it). This stands also for GPL code.
Special care should be kept even when you're producing some software at home (even without using company's assets or knowledge) - the famous EWS (Employee Written Software). They could easily switch back to their I.P, so should be careful.
Since they have released the code as GPL once, you have the right to fork it and continue or just publish such code (not by them derived).
Just think about the MySQL / MariaDB SQL case.
You bring up the fallacy that people making money from sex are slaves. As pointed out by your references, the media has gone along way into exploiting this myth (and making a lot of money and having increased ratings in the process).
The pathetic thing is that most people like yourself will gladly argue that it is OK for children to be indentured in India and China so that they can make cheap electronics and running shoes for Westerners, while the sex trade is somehow enslaving them. And when I say "people like you", I am referring to people I have often argued with in person, including in social science classes, who often have no idea what they are talking about except to vociferously argue that their own biases and prejudices could not possibly be wrong.
In reality, many children actually break out of poverty through the sex trade. I NEVER hear anybody saying that it is immoral and should be illegal to buy clothes or electronics from countries that don't protect children for (non-sex) slavery. In fact people often argue that it's good for children to have jobs as third-world industrial slaves. If people like yourself would argue against industrial slavery with the same zeal that you argue against the largely mythical and politically motivated idea of "sexual slavery" then this world would be a more humane and free-er place to live.
References:
The Virgin Trade: Sex, Lies and Trafficking
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1047543/
IANAL, but I don't think he has a leg to stand on. His claim appears baseless to me.
Everyplace I've worked has an employment agreement which all coders must sign, and which cedes all rights to all software they develop during the term of their employment. Such agreements usually contain a way for new hires to declare pre-existing projects they were working on beforehand, but I'm presuming that he never declared this project. In which case, the software belongs to the company entirely and they can do whatever they want with it.
The code author may have been a contractor rather than an employee (it's hard to tell because he omits important details on his blog). If he was a contractor, then he still signed an agreement with the company, and whatever he did is still their property.
It even seems possible that they can revoke the GPL license if they wish. He says on his blog: "We had always used open source, so it was high time we became a contributor!" which suggests that he made the decision to attach a GPL license by himself, on his own authority, even though he was not the copyright holder. In which case, the GPL license document was invalid, and the software was never really licensed under GPL. Especially if he was a contractor, in which case no employee of the company has ever released the software as GPL, or attached a GPL license document to it.
Of course I'm not a lawyer and he should hire one if he wishes to pursue this, but if I were him I'd just drop it.
Long story short
Too late.
Instead of spending the money on legal fees, why don't you use that money for aggressive advertising? They want to steal your code? Fine - then steal their potential customers away! Passive-Agressive FTW.
most employment contracts let the company OWN YOUR ASS, even outside of work hours and using your own equipment, even doing work not related to the core business of the company ... we tried FOR A MONTH to negotiate some contracts that would allow me to work on my DIY audio hw/sw/fw stuff and not have them own it.
Strange, most contracts I've seen, and contracts described by others, do make provisions for exceptions. At my previous employer is was part of the standard HR process for new hires to list personal projects that you wanted a waiver for. It was quite easy to get a waiver for proejcts unrelated to work. One coworker had a personal project that did overlap with the company business, the company said he could only fix bugs in the existing code and not add new features or other enhance the overlapping project. YMMV.
release the code make it clear with the code that it is what they are reselling that should harm their profits to start with then get a lawyer
One interesting clause to add to contract terms
may be interesting and to this point.
Authorship: The authorship of code I write for the company
shall contain my name and dates of authorship.
The value to me and the company is that I am proud of my
work and would like my authorship to be famous in the
company and in the context of a company buyout or takeover.
I would also like to be visible as an author or inventor when and if the
company elects to publish the code under GPL or patent ideas
embodied in the code any other transfer.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.