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Are We Seeing the End of Big Oil?

Hugh Pickens writes "Cyrus Sanati writes in Fortune Magazine that up until now, it has been widely accepted that being bigger was better for oil companies, but the announcement that ConocoPhillips plans to break up into two separately traded companies, separating its exploration and production unit from its refining and marketing units, took Wall Street by surprise, raising uncomfortable questions about the future of Big Oil. 'That's because the exploration side and the refining side of the oil business have little to do with one another,' writes Sanati. 'Contrary to popular belief, Big Oil has almost no control over the price of oil these days. That power squarely rests with oil-rich nations that hold most of the world's oil reserves and the Wall Street banks and hedge funds that speculate and make markets in the oil trading game. So even though ExxonMobil pumps oil, it can't guarantee that its refining unit will be able to profitably process a barrel into gasoline or heating oil.' ... 'If the ConocoPhillips story is a success for shareholders, there will be calls to break up Big Oil just in time for the annual meetings in the spring. So by this time next year, it is possible that Big Oil will go the way of Rockefeller's once gargantuan Standard Oil — with the markets, not the government, forcing a break up this time.'"

41 of 230 comments (clear)

  1. With profits like these... by tetrahedrassface · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Who would need to be bigger? Seriously huge profits, and most exploration is already done. These companies have been exploring for years now for deposits. It is probably just a crafty way to hide the hordes of money they are making...

    1. Re:With profits like these... by alostpacket · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly my thoughts as well. It also appears to move them one step further away from potential spills and the bad publicity that follows. The exploration units wont be household names. BP tried to hide that it basically owned that platform in the Gulf by outsourcing it IIRC. So this looks to possibly be another layer to hide profits and more. This isn't free markets creating competition and innovation, this is shell games and accounting tricks. It's also ridiculous to think ExxonMobil is somehow powerless at the behest of Wall Street traders when it was the #1 most profitable company in 2010. They dont tremble when a barrel of crude hits $100+, they laugh all the way to the bank.

      --
      PocketPermissions Android Permission Guide
    2. Re:With profits like these... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not just hiding profits, also splitting liability. BP is going to be paying a lot for the oil spill. Wouldn't it be so much more convenient if they didn't own or operate the rig and could just blame it on a small company, which could then pay its entire $1M capitalisation in compensation and then go bankrupt?

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    3. Re:With profits like these... by petermgreen · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It is probably just a crafty way to hide the hordes of money they are making...

      I'd say it's more likely a way to seperate the reputations of the two units.

      As oil and gas supplies dwindle we are being driven towards sources that are dirtier and/or riskier. Remember the deepwater horizon incident? remember the tar sands controversy? remember the fracking controversy? If you were running a consumer facing buisness would you really want to be associated with that?

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    4. Re:With profits like these... by vlm · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Not just hiding profits, also splitting liability. BP is going to be paying a lot for the oil spill. Wouldn't it be so much more convenient if they didn't own or operate the rig and could just blame it on a small company, which could then pay its entire $1M capitalisation in compensation and then go bankrupt?

      You write as if you don't know very much about the oil business, at all. BP did not own nor operate the rig, TO did.

      One problem you have not considered is your solution would probably have saved the gulf. TO and BP are multibillion dollar companies, and as such every interaction between them is handled almost lawerly, with infinite levels of ass covering and record keeping. As anyone who has ever worked in a situation like that knows, that leads to horrendous paralysis. Which is unfortunately exactly what you don't want on a drilling rig hovering over a 3 mile deep gas filled hole.

      In your scenario, Mr Million dollar company says F U guys I'm hitting the big red switch and pumping the heavy kill pill downhole. Its only a million bucks not a billion. What actually happened was a lot of "you don't wanna be the guy who broke the billion dollar contract relationship" and "who is authorized vs who is liable to declare an emergency or not to" and "who gets to push what button when and why". Which is fine if you have all the time in the world, but if you don't then the platform blows up, everyones killed, and the gulf is flooded with oil, because you can sue individuals but you can't sue oil spewing out of a well.

      Basically we have a super monopoly / ogliopoly situation now. That doesn't work so well. A bunch of little companies, even if a little artificial, would provide more efficient and safer operations overall.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    5. Re:With profits like these... by TheCRAIGGERS · · Score: 3, Informative

      With something as big as the Gulf spill, the media vultures who are constantly circling for disasters like this won't be fooled by something so simple. And neither will the public when the media announces that BigOilCo owns the company that caused the newest natural disaster.

      The PR was bad enough for BP in the last spill, and they were (somewhat) actively trying to clean it up. A lot of eyes were on them. How bad do you think the PR would be if BP had said "Well, it's not our problem. It's the problem of our Exploration subsidiary." So I don't think it's that good a get out of jail free card as you say.

    6. Re:With profits like these... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your comment shows how little you understand about the market. They do have massive profits but the article is about how they are breaking up to separate the finding, drilling, and production of crude from the refining of that curde into usable products. They're doing this because exploration and production is currently very profitable while refining and marketing is have trouble with shrinking margins due to the price of crude, increased regulation, etc. They're getting smaller not to hide profits but to dump operating costs.

      The more interesting question for these companies is what happens when they dig too many dry holes or the price of crude tanks etc. etc. One of the reasons that a huge integrated oil company is a good idea (from a business point of view) is that when production business are having issues, refining is traditionally going well, and when refining is having issues then production is usually going well.

      Also, to defend the industry on the economics side a bit (though they deserve little defense from an environmental standpoint), what they do is expensive like almost nothing else so by default the companies are going to be large. It's the only way to be able to fund the production and refining without risking the entire company every time you dig a hole. What results from that size is poor on-the-ground efficiency, confused decision making, poor accoutability, a bad environmental record, massive profits (especially if you look at the number in a vacuum and don't consider at the amount you had to risk to get those profits), and the ability to actually produce enough hydrocarbon products to meet world demand. It is definitely a double edged sword but the "big companies are evil" mantra is naive and frankly just stupid. They're dangerous and need to be watched because of their scale and the effect they can have on economic and environmental systems but they're not evil.

      Regardless of whether they favor a big integrated approach that insulates you from various risks related to changing markets or they favor putting your eggs in the basket that is currently doing well and adjusting when the market changes I assure you they're not trying hide profits...they're trying to increase them or reduce risk of ruin depending on the approach you take.

      If you really want to do something about big oil, quit using (or reduce) your car, electricity, and commercial mass produced products then convince another 5 billion or so people to follow suit. Or perhaps you could make renewables economically viable through innovation. The problem is that that R&D requires investment levels that only large companies can provide the most common of which in the renewables space comes from big oil. They invest at a rate to keep them out ahead of demand not at a rate to get to renewables the quickest but they still invest alot more than anyone else. LIke I said it's a double edged sword.

    7. Re:With profits like these... by obarthelemy · · Score: 2

      This is not high school anymore: reputation is less important than money. Do you think all those big banks, and their bankers, give a damn about what we think of them, as long as they can take home huge bonuses ? same everywhere: the companies mostly don't care, the employees don't give a f**k.

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    8. Re:With profits like these... by peragrin · · Score: 4, Informative

      100 billion in profits on 1 trillion in sales means you have 10% margin out of that 90% is overhead. And you are making 1% profit. Only billion dollar companies can live with that. Even Dell makes 15%, and Apple makes 30%.

      Record profits only have meaning when you think like a small minded idiot.

      Not to defend exxon but wall street speculators cause more price swings than any other force, from the big oil companies to the country oil cartels. Pass a law that says you must hang on to futures trades for 24 hours and watch the price stablize.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    9. Re:With profits like these... by Rei · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's probably the most intelligent comment I've seen in this thread in all regards. Especially the point about locking people into futures trades.

      And the original article is right -- oil exploration/production and refining have relatively little to do with each other. They don't even profit based on the same numbers. Production profits based on the market value of the particular type of crude. Refining profits based on the "crack spread", the difference in price between a particular refined product and its feedstock. Both fluctuate wildly and independently.

      There is an "oil cartel" -- OPEC. But acting as though every entity involved in the oil industry, from multinationals to refiners, is likewise a cartel, is just plain silly. The amount of competition between different oil companies is huge. They're all selling basically the same product**, so they deal in very small margins, trying to out-optimize their operations relative to each other, with pure, raw scale being the way to keep their total profits up.

      ** -- There are some ways oil companies try to distinguish their products from each other, namely in how they market branded gasoline (not just commercials talking about additives or whatnot, but more in terms of marketing to retailers -- getting them to pay a small premium in exchange for services like delivery and whatnot).

      --
      Anchor: "We take you now to our Chief Meteorologist, Paris Hilton." Paris: "It's hot." Anchor: "Thank you."
    10. Re:With profits like these... by shentino · · Score: 2

      So how exactly does an oil dollar get divvied up?

      How much of it stays at the gas station?
      How much of it stays at the refinery?
      How much of it stays with the driller?
      How much of it stays with the country that owns the land?

    11. Re:With profits like these... by hairyfeet · · Score: 2

      Because I have seen the same bullshit in my area with the natural gas wildcatters (which I assume is close enough to oil for this discussion) and here is how it goes. Wildcatter splits in two, the drilling side and the processing side, anything nasty comes up, like say....oh I don't know....they make a big fucking environmental mess? They let the drilling side take the hit as it is only leasing the assets from the other company and then dissolve the driller and start anew. lather rinse repeat.

      This isn't some "little companies do it better" this is standard CYA "hey we'll keep all the profits and stick liabilities on the state and the fed!" total horseshit. Want to see the next dozen superfurnd sites? Well its coming and THIS is how they are gonna do it. Bend over and spread those cheeks pal, big business has figured out yet again how to stick you with the bill.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    12. Re:With profits like these... by mikael · · Score: 2

      Oil companies don't own the drilling rigs, as they are too expensive to maintain for the few months that they are drilling well-heads in a new field. Once the hole has been drilled and capped, there isn't much use for that drilling rig. Other times, they will be doing seismic, geological, oceanographic and meteorological studies for the next place to drill. They won't do drilling at any point until they absolutely know that there is something worth drilling for, and that the rig could withstand the local conditions.

      Even then, they can still goof-up and underestimate the geology. The Gulf of Mexico accident was caused by the extremely pressures encountered, something in the range of 100,000 PSI+.

      --
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  2. Markets?!? by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    with the markets, not the government, forcing a break up this time

    <sarcasm>Wait, the market is providing a better solution than the government? How is that possible?</sarcasm>

    --
    Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    1. Re:Markets?!? by tbannist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How about:

      <sarcasm>Wait, the market is providing the exact same solution as the government. How is that possible?</sarcasm>

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    2. Re:Markets?!? by bky1701 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The market always makes the best choice. However, it is best for the rich who own the big players in the market, not for the workers or consumers.

    3. Re:Markets?!? by Semptimilius · · Score: 2

      And the summary gives an example where government had to step in because the market created a monster. Long ago, granted, but still looked on as a favourable move. Naturally, when the economics no longer make sense, "the market" brings about a change. Though, this isn't necessarily a better solution without governments protecting the entities; oil-rich nations and nationalized oil corporations will gobble up the smaller players if given the chance.

  3. Does this matter by Anrego · · Score: 4, Interesting

    to anyone besides investors?

    What I got from the article is that one really big company is becoming two merely large companies for market purposes. How does this impact any of us down here?

    I was however relieved that this wasn't another "year of the electric car" type article and it had a fair amount of substance!

    1. Re:Does this matter by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2

      The logic behind the reverse merger is that the wildcatters are given multiples of 20-50, while the integrated companies only get 9-10. Refining has low margins, but the exploration side benefits on new discoveries. With all the shale plays, more oil is being discovered in the US every week.

      One possible benefit to those who breathe is that the hydrocarbon resource is detached from traditional refining mechanisms. Maybe we will see more hydrogen solutions or cleaner natural gas pushed to the market if the refinery isn't holding back the resources.

  4. logical by StripedCow · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Any conglomerate should be split up. It just make sense. Like modular programming does.

    The output of any division of a conglomerate should be accessible to the whole market, not just the big encompassing company that holds the division.

    Letting companies grow bigger and bigger only leads to near-monopolistic situations, and eventually less choice for the consumer.
    If, for example, Apple were split into two companies, one for software, one for hardware, this would probably lead to a much richer variety of products. And, also important, more opportunities for users to tinker :)

    --
    If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    1. Re:logical by Dishevel · · Score: 4, Interesting

      How about we allow success.
      Monopolies are not in and of themselves bad.
      Only when they use their position unfairly should the government step in.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    2. Re:logical by Anrego · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If, for example, Apple were split into two companies, one for software, one for hardware, this would probably lead to a much richer variety of products. And, also important, more opportunities for users to tinker :)

      Much as I hate apple, the tie in that have with software and hardware is one of the advantages they have over PC from (most) consumer perspectives. The operating system works nearly perfectly with the hardware because they define the hardware. They don't have to deal with a bazillion unique configurations.. only a few that they've chosen.

      Apple splitting up this way would be a mistake on their part.

      And I think what we draw from this is that in a lot of cases (especially cases where things are evolving) there is an advantage of being a big blob. I think where it makes sense to split something up is when the components stop evolving significantly (which may at this point be the case with oil). When a widget just becomes a widget, it makes sense.

    3. Re:logical by vlm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think making all 25K employees 1099 contractors is gonna help anyone but the tax lawyers.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    4. Re:logical by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Any conglomerate should be split up.

      I agree that conglomerates should (at least in most cases) be split up, but not by the government. Most conglomerates were formed when various factors favored centralizing everything. What made that economically efficient was the cost of communicating information from one place to another. It was more efficient to put all of the decision makers in close proximity to one another and send the necessary information to them at that central location since much of the same information was necessary for making decsions about disparate business entities. When the cost of transmitting information was high, this was the most efficient way to organize things.
      However, as a result of this centralization, a lot of information that was only significant to one of the business entities was "lost" to the decision makers. This was not critical because the savings of only having to transmit the other information to one place made up for it. Now, as the cost of communicating information to various locations has fallen, the cost savings of centralization have diminished to the point that much of that "lost" information is now more valuable than the savings from centralization. This will gradually lead to the breakup of conglomerates along the fault lines of information.
      Of course, not all conglomerates will voluntarily break up. But as their various divisions are less able to compete with the now independent divisions of their competitors, all of their divisions will suffer. If the refining side of an oil conglomerate, must get all of their oil from the exploration side they will not be able to take advantage of cost savings from dealing with outside exploration companies that are at the moment more successful than the in-house exploration division. If the exploration side must sell all of their oil to the refining side, they will be unable to maximize profit by selling to outside refiners who at the moment have a need to pay higher prices to obtain oil. If both sides are free to deal with outside competitors of the other division, the advantages of having both in the same company diminish.
      The market is perfectly capable of sorting this out. If I am correct, the new companies of the ConocoPhillips split will be more successful than they were as part of one company and other companies will follow suit. Those that do not will gradually fall behind in the market until they either do so, or they go out of business.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    5. Re:logical by StripedCow · · Score: 2

      Something that deserves more study is the question of why a large monolithic company can outcompete an ecosystem of smaller units in the first place.

      Probably because of its anti-competitive advantage... a large conglomerate has the strength to lock its customers in, lock their competitors out. Heck, they create their own "ecosystem" and completely control it (look at the Apple "app" ecosystem).

      --
      If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    6. Re:logical by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      And watch someone develop a product that makes yours obsolete. Unless you can get the government to help you keep competitors out (which of course is part of why we have so many big powerful companies as it is), it won't work.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    7. Re:logical by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 2

      Every time you employ a third party, you are paying the amount that they have to charge to a) do the job you want, b) do lots of other jobs for other people, c) hiring people to do all those jobs permanently, pay pensions, h&s, etc. and d) make a profit and expand their own business. Do it yourself, and you save all of d) and quite a bit of the others to get exactly what you want.

      Read up on opportunity cost and comparative advantage. I.e., Econ 101 stuff. Classic example: you're a lawyer, and can type 100 words a minute. Your secretary can type only 60 words a minute. Does that mean you should fire your secretary and type up your own memos, calendar appointments and follow-up letters? Of course not, because doing secretary work costs you the money you could make doing lawyer work in that time, and only saves you the cost of a secretary.

      Employing third parties is the proper way to growth. Not employing third parties is the sign of a control freak at the helm and a company in a death spiral.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
  5. I feel so, so, much better. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

    Now that I know that energy prices are actually in the hands of a combination of shadowy capital funds and petro-kleptocrats, rather than 'big oil', I will definitely be sleeping better.

    1. Re:I feel so, so, much better. by tbannist · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's worse than you think. Energy prices are in the hands of shadowy capital funs and petro-dictatorships. The (relatively) nice guys in the petro-dictatorship group are the petro-kleptocrats. The rest of them buy stability for their repressive regimes by funding and exporting terrorists. Both Saudi Arabia and Iran have been arming terrorists, giving them small piles of cash and pointing them at countries they don't like for decades. Often that country is the United States.

      The invasion of Iraq is one of the biggest tragedies in this entire debacle. Ignoring what's actually been done to Iraq and it's people, the primary result (so far) of the invasion of Iraq was to give American money to the same people who funded 9/11 (by increasing oil prices and increasing America's usage of oil), and weaken the U.S. The Bush tax cuts were to stimulate the economy after 9/11 (they failed to do so), and combined with the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, those policies have led directly to the current U.S. debt crisis. The invasion of Iraq has strengthened America's enemies and weakened America and it's allies.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    2. Re:I feel so, so, much better. by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The Bush tax cuts were to stimulate the economy after 9/11 (they failed to do so)

      And yet, Federal tax revenues increased by 30% from 2000 to 2007 (and then began dropping in 2008 as the Housing Bubble burst).

      And this in spite of the recession immediately post-9/11, which saw tax revenues drop 10% over a two year period.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    3. Re:I feel so, so, much better. by spicate · · Score: 4, Informative

      The Bush tax cuts were to stimulate the economy after 9/11 (they failed to do so)

      And yet, Federal tax revenues increased by 30% from 2000 to 2007 (and then began dropping in 2008 as the Housing Bubble burst).

      And this in spite of the recession immediately post-9/11, which saw tax revenues drop 10% over a two year period.

      Sorry, the Bush tax cuts are not a good example of the idea that tax cuts supposedly lead to greater revenues.

      First, adjusted for inflation (2005 dollars), revenues were about $2.3 trillion in 2000 and $2.4 trillion in 2007. That's only 5% growth, less than 1% annually. If we hadn't cut taxes, revenues would have grown much more.

      Second, most economists don't credit the Bush tax cuts with more than a small part of the growth in GDP. There's a lot more going on in the economy than tax rates. The total revenues collected over that time period would have been much greater without the tax cuts. And our national debt would be trillions of dollars less.

      Finally, why stop in 2007? That's an arbitrary number that you picked because it fit your argument best. Inflation-adjusted tax revenues in 2009 were BELOW levels in every year since 1997. 2010 was only slightly better.

      I'm all for reducing budget deficits, and for tax policy reform. Almost everyone should be paying higher taxes right now.

      Source: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=200

    4. Re:I feel so, so, much better. by crunchygranola · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Bush tax cuts were to stimulate the economy after 9/11 (they failed to do so)

      And yet, Federal tax revenues increased by 30% from 2000 to 2007 (and then began dropping in 2008 as the Housing Bubble burst).

      And this in spite of the recession immediately post-9/11, which saw tax revenues drop 10% over a two year period.

      Insightful? Really? When the poster literally makes up a non-existent recession to explain the drop in tax revenues when the rates were cut?

      Look at the data folks: www.bea.gov/national/xls/gdplev.xls (or if you prefer a graphic representation - http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2010/2/26/saupload_gdp2000_2010.jpg ). There was no post "9-11 recession"; in fact there is not a single quarter after the Bush tax cuts went into effect when the GDP did not increase, until the crash of 2008.

      In real terms (inflation adjusted) there was no "30% increase". U.S. tax revenues fell sharply (18%) with the Bush tax cuts going in to effect, and recovered their former level only in 2006 (see second column, 2005 constant dollars: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2012/assets/hist01z3.xls). But the country had grown in population by 6% over the interim so this was still down from previous levels. It never recovered to the previous level on a per capita or GDP fraction basis 9http://www.deptofnumbers.com/blog/2010/08/tax-revenue-as-a-fraction-of-gdp/).

      --
      Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
  6. Re:Yes but not because of that but by jank1887 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    we do use hydrogen as fuel. It just currently brings carbon along for the ride. you want to pay extra to separate the two first? go right ahead. you can't get it for free.

  7. Nice try. . by intheshelter · · Score: 2

    WTFE!! I don't believe an ounce of the "poor little oil company" line in this story. Sell that crappy story to someone else because I'm not buying it.

  8. Strategy to limit liability? by Walter+White · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Sounds like a good way to limit exposure to unexpected costs associated with drilling. Sell the crude to the refining unit at cost of production and the drilling unit accumulates no profits that would be paid out as a result of a large spill. It would just go bankrupt, sell off any equipment it owns (if it owns any at all) and reform under a new corporate charter. Profit!

  9. Old news? by vlm · · Score: 4, Insightful

    exploration and production unit from its refining and marketing units, took Wall Street by surprise, raising uncomfortable questions about the future of Big Oil.

    The economist podcast discussed it some last week, as they discussed their previous weeks issue. I've noticed a disturbing trend where /. bifurcated around March and now some stories are fresh but the late ones are actually going further back in time as time goes on. Wasn't this a ST:TNG plotline?

    Anyway, the ominous BS makes no sense. I've been following this market for, well, decades, now, and all it boils down to is the oil majors are extremely competent at exploration and production, both directly and indirectly by financing other companies exploration and production work. The refining operations are almost meaningless now because every nation either wants to shut them down to prevent pollution (although the hypocrites still want gas for their SUVs) or they want massive overproduction capability for strategic warfare reasons. So refining is a dead market. As for the marketing units, yeah, they're real geniuses alright, look how everyone loves BP, for example.

    So all it amounts to is focusing on what makes a net positive on the income statement and casting off the deadwood that is a net negative to the income statement. Its the oil industry equivalent of joe average non-IT focused business outsourcing their IT department, just like they've outsourced their electrical production and (mostly) their "business standard uniform" production and maintenance.

    The reason its spun as doom and gloom, is they have no empathy and only see the effect on themselves. The marketing unit sponged off the profits of the production unit to make CNBC commercials that were beyond stupid. Now they are cast off like the debris they are, so they won't have the cash to pay to CNBC... So, MSM is going to get less advertising bucks from the oil majors. Hmm, I wonder how they feel about that? Expect some attack stories in the near future along with the doom and gloom, and then the MSM will find someone else to attack and it'll all be ignored.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  10. "with the markets, not the government"????? by TarPitt · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So "Big Oil has almost no control over the price of oil these days. That power squarely rests with oil-rich nations that hold most of the world's oil reserves" is NOT the government (actually many foreign governments) controlling the price of oil?

    So the power of governments of Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and Russia becomes a triumph of libertarian free market ideology?

    Yes, in the same world where the high economic growth of the communist-run, government controlled economy of the People's Republic of China demonstrates the triumph of "economic freedom"

    --
    If your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd murder you in your sleep
    1. Re:"with the markets, not the government"????? by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 3, Informative

      I would hardly call the collusion of the governments Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and Russia and the rest of OPEC to control the price of hydrocarbons a triumph of libertarian free market ideology.

      --
      Time to offend someone
  11. Re:Dump the expensive stuff by vlm · · Score: 2

    To me this sounds more like "we want to get rid of the expensive geologists and engineers" than a break-up of the vertically integrated players

    Its extremely important to note that one "bunch" of units was a net positive to the balance and income statements, and one "bunch" of units was a net negative or in the case of refining is floundering right around zero.

    All the geologists and (most of the) Pet Eng work for the net positive group. I think their jobs are pretty safe. If anything, without the deadweight holding that group down, their salaries and bonuses are gonna rise.

    Some of the pet eng guys and all of the chem eng guys work in the floundering group's refineries, which superficially looks really bad for them, but as long as people continue to buy gasoline, they're Probably pretty safe. If the rest of the company is floundering I would not expect extravagant pay increases or bonuses, but as long as you've got a bunch of cat crackers you need a catalyst engineer and that's kinda a secure lifetime job, until we stop burning gas, spraying bug spray, making plastic, etc.

    I wouldn't start sending out the resumes yet.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  12. It may help by PPH · · Score: 2

    When the oil refiners and distributors have an interest in seeing the price of their inputs go down and they bid accordingly, the pressure will be for lower prices. Today, Exxon acquires leases, explores and extracts crude oil. Much of their market value (what Wall Street rewards them for) is the perceived value of their reserves. So the higher the price of crude, the better they look to investors. Meanwhile, Exxon refines and distributes products. That arm of the business is rewarded for volume times the difference between input costs and sales. So it would seem that cheaper crude would help their market share. In the final analysis, when crude prices go up, so does Exxon's share price. So currently the refining arm isn't motivated to push prices down.

    The whole market is geared up to bid up crude prices. Much like the California energy crisis, everything is put onto the spot market and passed through as many speculators a possible. And much like 'sane' energy markets, once the players aren't sitting on both sides of each bid, I'd expect to see more fixed price long term crude delivery contracts. This will cut the speculators out of much of the market. This can only be good.

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    Have gnu, will travel.
  13. Venezuela by Artemis3 · · Score: 2

    The nationalizing trend started in the 60ies, about the time Opec formed; many countries found out they could earn much more by controlling the business directly, and in many, the private (often foreign) companies paid very little (or none) of taxes/royalties for extraction/processing/distribution/export, etc.

    That was the case of Venezuela, for a hundred years, US corporations extracted the best lighter Oil and burned immense natural gas reserves and even heavier crude in the way. In 1975 the whole industry was nationalized, but it was done to benefit the foreigners and corrupt politicians of the time, because their (many decades long) permits were about the expire a few years later and the nation would not need to pay them to leave.

    The current Venezuelan oil is heavier, and less valued because it needs more effort in processing, which is why Venezuela has so many (not very profitable) refineries, even in the USA.

    Venezuela opened foreign private and state owned corporations the chance to form joint ventures with PDVSA to extract the heavier oil in the Orinoco belt, with the State owning a portion of shares, and higher royalties per barrel export. Only 2 US corporations left the zone when a previous deal was made void, everyone else stayed and even more came (from Asia and elsewhere).

    Big state owned oil corporations are nothing new and will not go anytime soon. It is far more lucrative for most countries to have it that way. Political tensions with Venezuela are a decision of US administration, in line with their global policy for domination clashing with nationalistic positions (daring not let US corporations milk away all the profits). Nothing new and widely know outside USA for decades, if not centuries.

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    Artix
    Your Linux, your init.