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Wall Street Predicts Merge of OS X and iOS

gumbi west writes "One Wall Street analyst predicts what slashdot commenters have predicted for years, that iOS and OS X will merge into a single OS. However the analyst sees this happening because the iOS devices receive a substantial CPU boost from the quad core A6 which can power MBA and smaller devices while following 64-bit ARM processors can bring the remainder of the Apple lineup back to ARM under a single architecture."

258 comments

  1. He's a Wall Street Analyst by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Therefore, he's speaking out of his ass.

    1. Re:He's a Wall Street Analyst by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Therefore, he's speaking out of his ass.

      Unlike an Anonymous Coward posting on an internet forum, who is verifiably a fucking expert.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  2. Don't worry by bonch · · Score: 0, Troll

    Don't worry, even if every Mac ran iOS tomorrow, people would still make inaccurate marketshare comparisons between the entire Android platform of devices and just one single iOS device, the iPhone. With iPads and iPods included, iOS far surpasses Android in marketshare, but little facts like that get in the way.

    1. Re:Don't worry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This isn't a discussion of market share, so why are you even bringing it up?

    2. Re:Don't worry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See windmills; tilting at.

    3. Re:Don't worry by improfane · · Score: 1

      Because he loves Apple of course!

      I'll just sit frowning at you guys on the sidelines and play snake on my Nokia 1661.

      --
      Slashdot needs Geekcode | Can anyone recommend any good SCIFI? My tastes: Foundation, Startide Rising, CITY, Ringworld,
    4. Re:Don't worry by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, even if every Mac ran iOS tomorrow, people would still make inaccurate marketshare comparisons between the entire Android platform of devices and just one single iOS device, the iPhone.

      The most common comparison I've seen is mobile phone marketshare comparing Android phones (of which there are many) to iPhones (of which there are several models on the market at any one time, not "one single device".)

      This isn't the whole universe of Android devices (which include tablets, dual-boot laptops, and I think some dual-boot desktops) against a single iOS device.

      With iPads and iPods included, iOS far surpasses Android in marketshare

      What analytically useful market exists that includes iPads, iPods, and the iPhone as part of the same market?

    5. Re:Don't worry by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      There is one more than one iPhone. I think there have been four or five now.

    6. Re:Don't worry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, even if every Mac ran iOS tomorrow, people would still make inaccurate marketshare comparisons between the entire Android platform of devices and just one single iOS device, the iPhone.

      Dont think I've ever seen that. Normally people compare iPhones to Android phones (Android has the bigger marketshare)
        and iPads to Android tablets (iPad has the bigger market share). I don't think there are any Android devices comparable to iPods so I don't think there would be a very meaningful comparison but I guess you could say Apple 'wins' that by default, if that makes you feel good.

    7. Re:Don't worry by mrxak · · Score: 1

      What analytically useful market exists that includes iPads, iPods, and the iPhone as part of the same market?

      The app market. It's useful for software developers to see the entire platform when determining what to code/port their software for/to. Obviously they'll take other factors into account as well, but knowing how large various operating systems are, over all devices, is important.

      So yes, the iPad, iPod Touch, and iPhone are all in a single market.

    8. Re:Don't worry by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 1

      I'll just sit frowning at you guys on the sidelines and play snake on my Nokia 1661.

      There's an app for that!

    9. Re:Don't worry by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      That's kind of like making "inaccurate market share comparisons" between Macs and the rest of the computing industry.

      Nothing new there...

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    10. Re:Don't worry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's also been more than one Mac. However, I doubt very much that there's many IIci's that add to the market total.

      There are +two+ currently supported iPhone models- three if you count those capable of running the latest IOS. There are +two+ currently supported iPad models. Both phones and tablets made by Apple, a single manufacturer.

      Now, how many smartphone and tablet models are out there that are proudly emblazoned with "I'm an Android!" by how many manufacturers?

      That's the point people are trying to make and the one that you're seemingly trying to wriggle out of.

    11. Re:Don't worry by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      There are four or five ways to hold them, and six of those are wrong.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    12. Re:Don't worry by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      The app market. It's useful for software developers to see the entire platform when determining what to code/port their software for/to. Obviously they'll take other factors into account as well, but knowing how large various operating systems are, over all devices, is important.

      So yes, the iPad, iPod Touch, and iPhone are all in a single market.

      You seem to be describing as the "app market" the "market of things that run software that developers might want to target". While that might be an analytically useful market, its not usually the market iOS to Android comparisons are made in, and it includes as major players things that aren't usually included in iOS vs. Android comparisons (like Windows.)

      Though app developers, even on OS's that nominally support a wide range of devices of different form factors, frequently target specific form factors, so I'm not convinced that, even from a developers perspective, even the narrower "mobile app platform" market that includes tablets, phones, and phone-sized-non-phone devices is really a coherent single market.

      And aside from form factor, there is also an important distinction for lots of developers between phone and non-phone devices.

    13. Re:Don't worry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) Offtopic, this is about MacOSX and iOS becoming a unified OS.
      2) This is a discussion about the merging of MacOS & iOS
      3) This is a discussion about the merging of MacOS & iOS
      4) iPods don't use iOS except the iPod Touch which is more an iPhone without the phone part than an MP3/Video player. 5) This is a discussion about the merging of MacOS & iOS
      6) If there were other iOS phones you would have a point but there isn't. Its like a Mac fan complaining that there are more Mac's sold than any model of Windows PC so saying Windows is more popular than MacOS is false
      7) This is a discussion about the merging of MacOS & iOS
      8) This is a discussion about the merging of MacOS & iOS

    14. Re:Don't worry by renegadesx · · Score: 1

      Most iPods dont use iOS.

      --
      Make SELinux enforcing again!
    15. Re:Don't worry by That+Guy+From+Mrktng · · Score: 1

      So yes, the iPad, iPod Touch, and iPhone are all in a single market.

      Sure, It's called "Consumer electronics" on par with knockoff Chinese shuffles, Taiwan tablets, and truck load of "things with buttons and chips that do stuff" not intended for commercial or industrial use.

      Market -> Consumer electronics
      - Category -> Media consumption
      -- Segment -> MIDs
      --- Products -> iPad / Xoom / Playbook / no-name-mid

      Market -> Consumer electronics
      - Category -> Communication
      -- Segment -> Smartphones
      --- Products -> iPhone / Galaxy / Nexus / no-name-phon

      Thats more or less how it works, Apple products themselves are not a market, they have a common target and coherent interoperability. Of course if you think only the Apple products are worth your money then all those products are a "market" for you and everyone that shares your perception, but thats a niche, not a market.

      cue

    16. Re:Don't worry by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I don't know if he loves Apple but I know he hates Google.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    17. Re:Don't worry by renegadesx · · Score: 1

      The only model that uses iOS is the iPod Touch which is an iPhone without the phone functions. The OS that runs the other iPod models is an embedded OS that despite may have some design concepts in common with iOS, it is not iOS.

      --
      Make SELinux enforcing again!
  3. ARM laptops by XanC · · Score: 1

    When will I be able to get an ARM laptop?

    1. Re:ARM laptops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You already can.

      Asus EeePad Transformer.
      I have one. Its a tablet with a keyboard.
      When docked its a laptop, when undocked its an Android 3.x tablet.

      I'm just waiting for someone to port Linux to it.

    2. Re:ARM laptops by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1

      Google "Chromebook"

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    3. Re:ARM laptops by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      What needs to be ported?
      It is already running linux the kernel, how hard can it be to run Debian-arm on it? I would imagine if you are ok just accessing it via vlc and running the same kernel you could do it now. Just like lots of people are doing on Android phones.

    4. Re:ARM laptops by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I've got two already. They came from here.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:ARM laptops by lucian1900 · · Score: 1

      I'm typing this on such a laptop. It's pretty good. Linux desktop ARM isn't quite mature (I'm still on maverick), but it's alright. Btw, It's my main machine.

    6. Re:ARM laptops by Henriok · · Score: 1

      I did, and two came up: Samsung Series 5 and Acer AC700. Both powered by an Intel Atom processor. Not ARM.

      --

      - Henrik

      - when the Shadows descend -
    7. Re:ARM laptops by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      When docked its a laptop, when undocked its an Android 3.x tablet.

      I'm just waiting for someone to port Linux to it.

      You just made my head explode.

    8. Re:ARM laptops by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      I've mentioned to a Apple-obsessed colleague that the 11" Macbook Air would be great machine if (a) it had a multi-touch and (b) a detachable screen, switching between iOS and OS/X seamlessly.

      Response? "Oh, you need to buy 2 devices. The Macbook isn't a tablet and the iPad isn't a laptop."

      Anyway, Steven Barker from NZ is porting Ubuntu to the transformer. Awaiting official nvidia support for drivers etc.

    9. Re:ARM laptops by renegadesx · · Score: 2

      I'm just waiting for someone to port Linux to it.

      Priceless

      --
      Make SELinux enforcing again!
    10. Re:ARM laptops by gumbi+west · · Score: 1

      The analyst is claiming Apple will release an A6 MBA in 2012.

    11. Re:ARM laptops by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1

      I'm just waiting for someone to port Linux to it.

      It's almost done

      XDA member seshmaru posted a guide that explains how to flash Ubuntu onto Tegra 2 based devices. This is not just running it from an SD card but actually flashing this onto the nvflash of the device, so for those of you who were still wondering what use was the security key, this is one such reason. Keep in mind that this is not complete yet as the tools required to flash anything to nvflash are currently under development. However, if you wanted to have a more robust OS than Android, this is certainly something to keep your eye on.

      http://www.xda-developers.com/android/want-to-run-linux-in-your-transformer-there-may-be-hope-soon/

      If you're really brave (and lucky) the workaround to get Karmic running on Tegra devices is here.
      http://tegradeveloper.nvidia.com/tegra/forum/workaround-run-ubuntu-now

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    12. Re:ARM laptops by Confusador · · Score: 1

      You can already get an Asus EEE Tab with a keyboard dock, which is ARM in a laptop form factor. I wouldn't exactly call it a laptop, though, because it isn't powerful enough to do what I would expect from a laptop. So the answer is going to be pretty arbitrary: you tell me what you expect from a laptop, and I'll tell you where that is on the ARM roadmap.

    13. Re:ARM laptops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      these guys sell interesting labotps here

    14. Re:ARM laptops by BasilBrush · · Score: 1
    15. Re:ARM laptops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Intel probably told them to knife the baby.

    16. Re:ARM laptops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The specifications are as follows:

      "Multi-format HD video decoder and D1 video encoder (currently not supported by the included software)"

      Wow sounds like a real iPad killer there.

  4. Duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They already are the same OS, essentially. They have the same core OS and the same basic application framework; only the top-level UI layer is different. Now that desktops are heading toward touch interfaces, it seems obvious that the UI layers would merge at some point.

    1. Re:Duh. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      AppKit on OS X 10.7 already adopts a lot of the event model from UIKit. The reason that Apple keeps them separate is the screen size. Designing a UI for a small touchscreen is very different from designing one for a laptop or desktop with a large screen and a keyboard and mouse. You can share 90% of the code between a Mac and iOS app, but you have to rewrite the UI. This was a good decision - I own a Nokia 770, and it has a lot of ported Linux apps, 90% of which are horrible to use because they were never designed for such a small screen. Sure, you can use AbiWord on it, but 60% of the screen is filled with UI widgets, with only a small sliver for your document. Meanwhile, Android apps are all designed for the small device, even if they're ports of desktop apps.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    2. Re:Duh. by mrxak · · Score: 2

      They already are the same OS, essentially. They have the same core OS and the same basic application framework; only the top-level UI layer is different.

      Nobody ever said Wall Street understood the technology involved in the tech companies they are trading.

    3. Re:Duh. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Now that desktops are heading toward touch interfaces

      I guess it's been long enough that gorilla arm syndrome has ridden off the pages of history into legend, and from there into myth.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:Duh. by mbkennel · · Score: 1

      To Wall Street what matters is whether when they merge the same software will be sold on them. The top-level UI does matter.

  5. ARM shares are up by 80% by improfane · · Score: 2

    ...from a few years back

    They're growing too:
    http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=ARM.L#symbol=arm.l;range=1y;compare=;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=;

    Hence I share your sentiment, this article is here purely to increase share prices. Who do you think benefits from that? There are vested financial positions behind most articles they print. They do not print real analysis.

    Remember, the value of your investments can rise or fall.

    --
    Slashdot needs Geekcode | Can anyone recommend any good SCIFI? My tastes: Foundation, Startide Rising, CITY, Ringworld,
  6. Re:In fact its more that rumors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MODS please ban this guy

  7. Cisco won't stand for it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apple cannot use the trademarked IOS term on non-phone/ipod platform

  8. Re:In fact its more that rumors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    GOATSE

  9. Never going to happen. by avihappy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is one of those moronic things that will never happen that are being continuously predicted by people who don't understand anything about usability. Apple knows you can't just shoehorn a "one size fits all" OS onto every device you make; that the ways people use different devices are fundamentally different. Keyboard and Mouse apps do not work well with a touchscreen, and vice versa. Just because Lion imported some of the UI features of iOS like hidden scrollbars and an application launcher does not mean they will merge; they are simply implementing ideas from one platform that have utility on another.

    1. Re:Never going to happen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would agree except we are talking about Apple. This is the same group that dropped Final Cut Pro and renamed iMovie Final Cut Pro and simply did a major upgrade and hoped no one would notice. Why I compare the two is Apple has a history of catering to the masses and ignoring the needs of the minority. If 90% are happy with an iOS platform they will drop the desktop environment like a hot potato.

    2. Re:Never going to happen. by mrxak · · Score: 1

      Except you can only create iOS apps using OS X. OS X and actual desktop computers aren't going anywhere.

    3. Re:Never going to happen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does hiding 10 pixels worth of scroll-bars have any utility on a screen that is 1600 pixels wide?

    4. Re:Never going to happen. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You're totally wrong, influential sources inside Apple have already said that OSX and iOS will be converging, and it's only a matter of time. There's no reason it can't have multiple interfaces; hell, Apple has done that BEFORE with Classic Mac OS and the alternate launcher interface with the big stupid icons. Didn't last long, but that interface is now back on mobiles, with more eye candy.

      What you are saying is contradicted by both Apple and reality.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Never going to happen. by sessamoid · · Score: 0

      You're totally wrong, influential sources inside Apple have already said that OSX and iOS will be converging, and it's only a matter of time. There's no reason it can't have multiple interfaces; hell, Apple has done that BEFORE with Classic Mac OS and the alternate launcher interface with the big stupid icons. Didn't last long, but that interface is now back on mobiles, with more eye candy.

      What you are saying is contradicted by both Apple and reality.

      Citations, please.

      --
      "No, no, no. Don't tug on that. You never know what it might be attached to."
    6. Re:Never going to happen. by c.r.o.c.o · · Score: 0

      This is one of those moronic things that will never happen that are being continuously predicted by people who don't understand anything about usability. Apple knows you can't just shoehorn a "one size fits all" OS onto every device you make; that the ways people use different devices are fundamentally different. Keyboard and Mouse apps do not work well with a touchscreen, and vice versa. Just because Lion imported some of the UI features of iOS like hidden scrollbars and an application launcher does not mean they will merge; they are simply implementing ideas from one platform that have utility on another.

      From what I've been seeing, Apple's main interest at the moment is the consumer market. Developers, movie editors, servers all come a distant second. Why else would they cripple Lion server? Why would they make Lion a download only OS? Or why release a very incomplete Final Cut Pro X?

      Granted, at the moment iOS cannot function as a full desktop OS. However it's been getting more and more features, and over time it will become an adequate substitute for general purpose computing. The success of the iPad shows that people like it, and would be willing to use it as a main device. This is crucial for Apple, because iOS has something OSX will NEVER have, that is a complete dependency to the App Store. Unless you jailbreak your device, you cannot install apps from alternate sources. We all know the large cut Apple takes from every app, book or doodah sold in the App Store.

      If Apple were to try and implement a similar dependency in OSX, there would be a shitstorm overnight even if they tried it a few years from now. People expect OSX to allow them to install apps from whatever source, to tweak the system to some extent, and to generally own it. But if they attack the problem from the other end, by replacing OSX with iOS, not many people will even notice, let alone complain because they are used to the iPhone or iPad being locked in.

      I would not be at all surprised if the next MacBook Air will be just an iPad with a keyboard running iOS. Two generations from now, low end MacBooks will also be running iOS, with only the most expensive and profitable MacBook Pros still running OSX. Is it likely to happen? I don't know for sure, but this is where things are pointing at right now with Apple trying to control the hardware, software distribution and entertainment distribution.

      Remember that Apple, like every single other company out there, has the single purpose of maximizing its profits for its shareholders. Everything else is irrelevant. If you believe otherwise, you need to learn some history.

    7. Re:Never going to happen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why couldn't Apple develop for iOS on iOS if they wanted to? I already have gcc on my jailbroken iPhone.

    8. Re:Never going to happen. by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Yes. It encourages you to scroll things in the natural direction, as opposed to scrolling the scroll bars. If you can't see the scroll bar, you are more likely to "pull" the content on your screen "down", which is natural, as opposed to the wrong way we've been doing it for years...pull the SCROLL BAR down and the content goes up. Hide the scroll bar and that association goes away.

    9. Re:Never going to happen. by avihappy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Remember that Apple, like every single other company out there, has the single purpose of maximizing its profits for its shareholders. Everything else is irrelevant. If you believe otherwise, you need to learn some history.

      And the way they do that is by making products people want to buy. Running the same UI on both a Mac, tablet, and phone will result in a sub par experience on all three devices and will surely drive away users. iPhones have no business running a windowed GUI, and Macs need to be able to have multiple windows up due to their expanded screens space. Macs use indirect interaction with highly precise input devices, while iPhones and iPads are direct interaction and have a fairly imprecise input mechanism. So many fundamentals are so different that merging the two UIs would make their devices desirable to no one. Not to mention the fact that iPhones have many more sensors than a Mac. If Apple wanted to pursue your strategy, they wouldn't do it by merging their operating systems. They would do it by locking down OS X while still keeping it as a separate platform.

    10. Re:Never going to happen. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Just go back through stories on Slashdot and you will find stuff from the front page. But I'm not bored enough for that.

      I can't even find info on the old stupid launcher. I think it was in OS 8. Maybe just 7. Might have been performa-only or something.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    11. Re:Never going to happen. by david.emery · · Score: 1

      ... OS X and actual desktop computers aren't going anywhere.

      Apple's growing market share on the high end of personal computers, particularly laptops, shows that, while the industry as a whole may not be going anywhere, Apple's part of that industry is showing substantial growth in all of (a) absolute sales; (b) proportion of the market; (c) profitability. (And I personally contributed to that growth last quarter and am very happy with my new machine...)

    12. Re:Never going to happen. by gumbi+west · · Score: 1

      Interesting. So should scroll bars be the other way around then?

    13. Re:Never going to happen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then you're not bored enough to justify your argument.

      OSX and IOS will share more in the future, but the tablet/phone device and the laptop/desktop computer are two very different beasts. The two OS's will not be the same. They already share a lot of the same code - but I assume that's not what is being discussed in the article.

      That said, it's ENTIRELY possible Apple will think the traditional computer/laptop is redundant and drop their entire lineup in favor of specialized devices. At which point I'll be switching back to a PC and whatever OS makes the most sense for me personally.

    14. Re:Never going to happen. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 0

      From what I've been seeing, Apple's main interest at the moment is the consumer market. Developers, movie editors, servers all come a distant second. Why else would they cripple Lion server? Why would they make Lion a download only OS? Or why release a very incomplete Final Cut Pro X?

      I've said it a few times before: Apple is a Consumer Electronics Phone marketing company. One single product - the iPhone - accounts for half their revenues and nearly 60% of their profits. EVERYTHING ELSE - iPads, iPods, Macs, iTunes, software, accessories, etc - accounts for the minority of their revenue and profits.

      Apple has evolved in spectacularly profitable fashion to become a literal one-trick pony - the iPhone. They are losing marketshare in all other areas, nothing else has taken fire like the iPhone. So they are single-mindedly pursuing the iPhone metaphor across all business segments hoping it will ignite those other, smaller segments. But so far - nothing's caught.

      Apple's big problem is going to be keeping the momentum in the phone market, or replacing it with momentum in another market. The iPhone is losing marketshare in the smartphone world, and its biggest share is in the US and EU markets - which are close to saturation. The growth markets for smartphones is China, South East Asia, and India - and Apple has very little penetration or positive growth in those markets. As the US and EU market growth for smartphones slows down, and that is coupled with Apple's slow loss of marketshare in those markets, they will face falling revenues and profits from the iPhone business.

      So, make your other products as much like an iPhone as possible and hope people will grab on to it and keep them rolling for a few more years while Apple tries to identify another market for expansion.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    15. Re:Never going to happen. by fermion · · Score: 1
      I don't know if it is never going to happen, but it won't happen in the near term. iOS and OS X will converge, i.e. technologies will be used in both, but it will be a long while before iOS replaces Mac OS. For one thing iOS is essentially at the state the Mac OS was in the beginning. It only works well with certain printers, is relatively closed, has a small screen, and is underpowered. There is no multitasking, and the file system, such as it is, is a joke. No one is going to use this as a primary dedicated professional computer. And the market for macs is still strong as there is really nothing else that does what a Mac does. Disagree with that but only if you spend equal time on mac, pc, and *nix machines.

      So what do we know. First, the consumer like of Mac is gone. This might indicate that iOS devices are going to be targeted to consumers, which makes good sense. An iPad can do most of what the average home user needs and costs half as much as Mac. Second, Apple is embracing so-called cloud computing and probably will put the same tech into all devices, OS X or iOS. This will increasingly allow the professional to work on a Mac, but also have access to data on a iOS. This was the mistake with the Newton. It was a good machined, I love mine, and it lived on the LAN, but data was not integrated between my machines. Third iOS is a long ways away from being a world class OS. It took Apple five years to develop Mac OS into a decent OS. It took apple a good three years to get OS X up to speed, and that with the next base. iOS is essentially a 2010 product. Development time is not only dependent on software, but how much power can put into an iPad.

      Given past development cycles for Apple, I think 2015 we will see significant change in focus from the Mac to iOS based notebooks or tablets. Given that the Apple ][ was sold for ten years after the mac, we will see mac sales for at least that long, and the OS will be different.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    16. Re:Never going to happen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      I've said it a few times before: Apple is a Consumer Electronics Phone marketing company.

      And as we all know, if Lynwood Rooster says so, it is so!

      One single product - the iPhone - accounts for half their revenues and nearly 60% of their profits. EVERYTHING ELSE - iPads, iPods, Macs, iTunes, software, accessories, etc - accounts for the minority of their revenue and profits.

      And as we all know, once one segment of a company becomes 60% of its profits, that segment COMPLETELY defines that company to the exclusion of all others! Lynwood Rooster says so!

      Apple has evolved in spectacularly profitable fashion to become a literal one-trick pony - the iPhone. They are losing marketshare in all other areas, nothing else has taken fire like the iPhone.

      Yes! Because Lynwood Rooster says so, Apple actually isn't gaining marketshare in healthy chunks every quarter with the Mac the way both Apple and independent analysts say they are! Because Lynwood Rooster says so, the iPad is actually a fizzle!

      So they are single-mindedly pursuing the iPhone metaphor across all business segments hoping it will ignite those other, smaller segments. But so far - nothing's caught.

      Yes! Agreed! If Lynwood Rooster says that success is defined only by iPhone level success, it is so! Apple's other products ALL SUCK and are IRRELEVANT because they are not succeeding JUST LIKE THE IPHONE. Even the ones which are selling at rates which exceed the iPhone's at the same stage in the iPhone's life, like iPad. But they aren't actually selling that fast! Because Lynwood Rooster says so! And that steady growth in Mac sales over the last several years? DOESN'T EXIST. Lynwood Rooster says so!

      Apple's big problem is going to be keeping the momentum in the phone market, or replacing it with momentum in another market. The iPhone is losing marketshare in the smartphone world, and its biggest share is in the US and EU markets - which are close to saturation. The growth markets for smartphones is China, South East Asia, and India - and Apple has very little penetration or positive growth in those markets.

      Yes! Because Lynwood Rooster says so, Apple is not in fact experiencing significant iPhone growth in markets like China! Please ignore all sources which say otherwise. They are as worms next to the godlike Lynwood Rooster, fount of all knowledge.

    17. Re:Never going to happen. by NoMaster · · Score: 1

      You're totally wrong, influential sources inside Apple have already said that OSX and iOS will be converging, and it's only a matter of time.

      Citations, please.

      Just go back through stories on Slashdot and you will find stuff from the front page. But I'm not bored enough for that.

      So you don't have any citations? Just half-remembered anecdotes from /.?

      Fair enough, but you should've just said that in the first place...

      --
      What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
    18. Re:Never going to happen. by arose · · Score: 1

      iPhones have no business running a windowed GUI, and Macs need to be able to have multiple windows up due to their expanded screens space.

      Yeah, they'd never add a full screen mode that hides even the menu bar and promote it as a step forward...

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    19. Re:Never going to happen. by vlueboy · · Score: 2

      I found some screenshots of the launcher here. I lived in the launcher days. It had a similar interface to the classroom-friendly "At Ease" tab-folder manager. There is some other feature whose name I can't remember, which I became very fond of because it allows OS 8.5+ to minimize folder windows to the bottom of your screen as small tabs whose "body" would only pop up when clicked. It could be filled with shortcuts and documents without cluttering the desktop.

      That functionality was available in OS 9 as well. 9 became "Classic" when 10 began to emulate it. The Classic emulator was meant only for individual applications, so OS 9's shell enhancements such as the Chooser and the Launcher were probably out of the question unless you were one of the lucky few mac geeks dual booting into their full-featured OS 9 installs prior to the sale of the last OS 9 CD. Classic itself was phased out around 10.3 or so IIRC. All in all, it seems like 8 and 9 were a lot less hard for Apple to "sunset" than 2000 and XP have been for Microsoft. Seeing how easily iOS gets phased out for "valid" phones every year, Apple won't have any problem pushing an OS / phone merge. The problem will be convincing people on BOTH sides that they were "upgraded" to the right interface. But knowing Apple's success stories, there will be much complaning followed by lots of obedience and NONE of the expected retractions.

      Nobody has thus far been able to make Apple bring back the killed built-in floppy drive, nor the Appletalk applets, nor the ADB (mouse) ports, nor the SCSI interface, nor the Classic OS, nor PPC support, nor the fullscreen-quicktime videos (without paying 30 bucks or playing around with Applescript). I hear the server tools got downsized for Lion, since they downsided the pricing model radically, whether you want it or not. I heard that this meant NFS and unlimited FTP clients were also removed. Apple does not fall back on its changes. Entire infrastructures have needed to change for every industry that relies too much on each one of those components, and that is why Apple is more unstable to businesses; they are not cheap to begin with, and they have a lot of bittersweet features that get the plug pulled. My nostalgia and Unix side still has a strong pull favoring flunking $900 for a mac mini server that I can't quite explain.

    20. Re:Never going to happen. by HideyoshiJP · · Score: 0

      I always thought of normal scrolling as moving a window over your document. You move the mouse wheel down and you move the window/looking glass downward.

    21. Re:Never going to happen. by macs4all · · Score: 1

      You're totally wrong, influential sources inside Apple have already said that OSX and iOS will be converging, and it's only a matter of time. There's no reason it can't have multiple interfaces; hell, Apple has done that BEFORE with Classic Mac OS and the alternate launcher interface with the big stupid icons. Didn't last long, but that interface is now back on mobiles, with more eye candy.

      What you are saying is contradicted by both Apple and reality.

      It's called Simple Finder, and it never "left". It's part of the "Parental Controls" setting in OS X.

    22. Re:Never going to happen. by macs4all · · Score: 1

      I would agree except we are talking about Apple. This is the same group that dropped Final Cut Pro and renamed iMovie Final Cut Pro and simply did a major upgrade and hoped no one would notice. Why I compare the two is Apple has a history of catering to the masses and ignoring the needs of the minority. If 90% are happy with an iOS platform they will drop the desktop environment like a hot potato.

      Yeah, Apple is sure dumbing down Lion.

    23. Re:Never going to happen. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      . There is some other feature whose name I can't remember, which I became very fond of because it allows OS 8.5+ to minimize folder windows to the bottom of your screen as small tabs whose "body" would only pop up when clicked. It could be filled with shortcuts and documents without cluttering the desktop.

      ISTR this being called the Panel, and being available only on portables at first.

      My favorite anti-Apple story is that when the merged the TIL into the KB they dropped some articles. The one that peeves me is the one where they admit that the Rev.1 B&W G3 causes data corruption with most IDE devices in UDMA mode, and they instruct users to either buy software to set drives to PIO mode, which works fine but is slower; or to buy a mac PCI IDE card, which at the time was literally an order of magnitude more than buying a similar card for the PC. Articles from before it and after it exist but since I don't even seem to have the TIL# any more I guess this is just one of those stories I can't prove. There's lots of material about it on lowendmac and other related sites, though, because a data corruption tool was written and distributed somewhat widely. I myself ran it and got confirmation of corruption, as if I needed any. (But it's nice when you can be sure.) I'm used to being called a liar by a broad assortment of shills, trolls, and fanboys, so bring 'em on once more.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    24. Re:Never going to happen. by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      The Classic emulator was meant only for individual applications, so OS 9's shell enhancements such as the Chooser and the Launcher were probably out of the question unless you were one of the lucky few mac geeks dual booting into their full-featured OS 9 installs prior to the sale of the last OS 9 CD.

      Funny. When I bought my brand new powerbook G4 8 years ago, I was still using a 68k Mac running System 7.5. The PowerBook came with 10.3 and only does AFP via TCP/IP. System 7.5 doesn't offer AFP via TCP/IP - neither Mac could see each other.

      I started Classic - it runs apps, but you can get into the environment by using a Classic app. Launch the Classic app, the Apple Menu transforms into the old MacOS system menu, and Chooser worked - it saw my old Mac and I could mount it. Heck, all the little desk accessories worked, and I could go into the MacOS control panel and play with MacInTalk.

      Classic was basically a paravirtualized environment.

    25. Re:Never going to happen. by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      I've said it a few times before: Apple is a Consumer Electronics Phone marketing company. One single product - the iPhone - accounts for half their revenues and nearly 60% of their profits. EVERYTHING ELSE - iPads, iPods, Macs, iTunes, software, accessories, etc - accounts for the minority of their revenue and profits.

      Apple has evolved in spectacularly profitable fashion to become a literal one-trick pony - the iPhone. They are losing marketshare in all other areas, nothing else has taken fire like the iPhone. So they are single-mindedly pursuing the iPhone metaphor across all business segments hoping it will ignite those other, smaller segments. But so far - nothing's caught.

      Apple's big problem is going to be keeping the momentum in the phone market, or replacing it with momentum in another market. The iPhone is losing marketshare in the smartphone world, and its biggest share is in the US and EU markets - which are close to saturation. The growth markets for smartphones is China, South East Asia, and India - and Apple has very little penetration or positive growth in those markets. As the US and EU market growth for smartphones slows down, and that is coupled with Apple's slow loss of marketshare in those markets, they will face falling revenues and profits from the iPhone business.

      Yeah, the iPhone was a huge hit in 1997, when Apple was nearly dead. Oh wait. the iPhone wasn't invented yet.

      No, Steve Jobs came back, and released the iMac, which was a wildly popular computer. You know, that floppy-less computer.

      Then in 2001, came the iPod, right at the time portable music players were taking off ("no wireless, less space than a nomad, lame").

      Then in 2005 Apple switched to Intel.

      And finally, in 2007, Apple released the iPhone.

      So for 10 years from when Jobs took over a company that was basically dysfunctional, Apple magically created money off a hypothetical iPhone that never existed for that time.

      No. Today, the iPhone makes 50%+ profits at Apple, and the iPod is dying, a product they profited immensely for the past 6 years prior to its release, which was inevitable.

      Apple, like other companies, reinvented themselves - from computers (the iMac basically "saved" the company), to MP3 players (iPods) to smartphones.

      As for marketshare - yes, Android phones outsell iPhones. However, when Apple basically gets 66% of profits of the entire mobile sector (including featurephones and Androids and everything else), you think Apple really cares? (Source: http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/29/apples-profit-share-among-top-mobile-phone-vendors-rises-to-66/ ). This profit share is up from 57%. It basically means Android phones are being sold for little profit, while Apple rakes in more money per iPhone sale than Android sale by a huge margin.

      And yes, iPhone profits will drop. And Apple will have to produce a new product. Perhaps it'll kill the iPhone like the iPhone killed the iPod. Apple's been doing the one-trick pony thing 3 times in the past 15 years. They know they have to come up with something new.

    26. Re:Never going to happen. by smash · · Score: 1

      converging != becoming identical. features from one will be implemented in the other, where appropriate.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    27. Re:Never going to happen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is a step forward. I use it all the time in Xmonad.

    28. Re:Never going to happen. by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

      I can't even find info on the old stupid launcher.

      You probably mean At Ease.

    29. Re:Never going to happen. by c.r.o.c.o · · Score: 1

      And the way they do that is by making products people want to buy. Running the same UI on both a Mac, tablet, and phone will result in a sub par experience on all three devices and will surely drive away users. iPhones have no business running a windowed GUI, and Macs need to be able to have multiple windows up due to their expanded screens space. Macs use indirect interaction with highly precise input devices, while iPhones and iPads are direct interaction and have a fairly imprecise input mechanism. So many fundamentals are so different that merging the two UIs would make their devices desirable to no one. Not to mention the fact that iPhones have many more sensors than a Mac. If Apple wanted to pursue your strategy, they wouldn't do it by merging their operating systems. They would do it by locking down OS X while still keeping it as a separate platform.

      Unlike you, I will quote your entire post, not just the very last sentence. You sidestepped my whole argument that economic factors NOT technical factors will dictate Apple's future policy.

      First, it looks like Windows 8 WILL have a unified interface across all devices (with the option to fall back on the old style Windows 7 interface for old apps on desktops). Their demo shows all desktop apps running full screen, with an interesting side tab switching system and a whole lot of gestures that seem to work best on a touch surface. Watch the youtube video if you don't believe me. So if MS can do it, or at least showcase it, it's definitely possible across Apple devices.

      Second, you are thinking as a consumer of Apple products, not as an Apple executive intent on maximizing profits. I must sound like a broken record, but Apple is not your friend, and does not care what you want or need. The bottom line is simple. If they sell you a (theoretical) iPhone, iPad or Macbook running iOS, they control where you buy the apps, where you buy your music, movies and TV shows, and they take at least 30% of every transaction. If however they sell you a Macbook or Macbook Pro running OSX, they DO NOT control any of that. Apple will make iOS work on laptops, mark my words. The technical details will be worked out over the next few generations.

      My original post was modded down once, and I expect the same to happen to this post. I just wanted to make it clear what I meant.

    30. Re:Never going to happen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it's safe to assume that future Macbooks / Macbook Pros will be able to function as tablets, after flipping the screen around.

    31. Re:Never going to happen. by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

      Except you can only create iOS apps using OS X. OS X and actual desktop computers aren't going anywhere.

      Software similar to Xcode could easily run on iOS (running on x86 or ARM doesn't matter which). The underlying tool-chain has already been ported and used to compile stuff on an iPhone. So your confidence is misplaced.

    32. Re:Never going to happen. by biodata · · Score: 1

      So what you are saying is Apple knows best about how people should scroll and is in fact being helpful by reeducating its users to scroll properly? Give me a break. I like the scroll bar because it shows me where I am in the document and lets me adjust where I am - if I am half way through and want to be three quarters of the way through I pull the scroll bar down to three quarters. This is the right way to scroll. Although maybe your post was trolling, sarcasm, Apple dronery or post-hoc rationalisation.

      --
      Korma: Good
    33. Re:Never going to happen. by m.ducharme · · Score: 1

      The association may go away, but the muscle memory does not. I installed Lion, took a few days to get used to the new scrolling direction. Despite the lack of scroll bars my natural habit was to scroll against the direction of the content, the way I've been doing it for years. Note also that I have an iPhone, so it's not as if the "pull-down" style is unfamiliar to me -- just in the context of my laptop. What felt natural on my phone felt bizarre on my laptop trackpad, even without the scroll bars.

      When I got my hands re-trained on the laptop, I found that they re-trained on scroll-wheels on mice too. Now at work, where I use a Win7 machine, I constantly try to scroll in the "wrong" direction. Major pain in my ass. Needless to say, I've switched the laptop back to the previous scrolling direction, and am again re-training my hands to accept that.

      As far as I'm concerned, changing the default scroll behaviour in Lion was a bad decision. Thankfully I can still reverse it, but who the hell thought it'd be a good idea in the first place?

      --
      Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
    34. Re:Never going to happen. by Imbrondir · · Score: 1

      You're right about not one size fits all. However I do believe a smartphone that I can dock to a screen, keyboard and mouse and morph into a desktop could sell quite well.

    35. Re:Never going to happen. by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Just go back through stories on Slashdot and you will find stuff from the front page.

      No he won't. What you said is not true. It would have been a major story if it was. And it never was.

      But I'm not bored enough for that. I can't even find info on the old stupid launcher.

      Ah, so you tried to find a citation, couldn't find it, and then declared "you're not bored enough."

    36. Re:Never going to happen. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I only tried to find info on the launcher, not the other assertion, which any good slashbot should have seen on the front page in the past. A sibling comment points out At Ease, which is what I was thinking about. You may now blow me.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    37. Re:Never going to happen. by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Your comment doesn't actually contradict the GPs comment in any way. Notice the words "be able to" in his comment.

      He's right. The two UIs are for devices with different use cases:
      iOS for interactions lasting a short time, mainly retrieving data, and consuming media.
      OSX for sessions of much longer period, inputting data, creating stuff.

      The fact that there's more OS support for full screen apps doesn't change what OSX is.

    38. Re:Never going to happen. by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Second, you are thinking as a consumer of Apple products, not as an Apple executive intent on maximizing profits. I must sound like a broken record, but Apple is not your friend, and does not care what you want or need. The bottom line is simple. If they sell you a (theoretical) iPhone, iPad or Macbook running iOS, they control where you buy the apps, where you buy your music, movies and TV shows, and they take at least 30% of every transaction. If however they sell you a Macbook or Macbook Pro running OSX, they DO NOT control any of that. Apple will make iOS work on laptops, mark my words. The technical details will be worked out over the next few generations.

      Your comment that companies are there to make a profit is a truism that vastly oversimplifies the topic. Yes, both MS and Apple are there to make a profit, but their strategies for doing so differ enormously. To think that because one company would do something to make a profit, another company would do it is mistaken. Especially if you think Apple would do something just because MS looks to be making steps in that direction.

      Apple hasn't risen from near bankruptcy 15 years ago to being the biggest tech company now by simply snatching at every opportunity to make a buck. They've done it because Jobs goal is to create the very best designed products. In the correct belief that that's what people want to buy.

      It's exactly the same way that Apple got it's earlier market in DTP. Not because Apple decided that a future DTP market would be worth lots of money and so they pursued it. But rather because Jobs had a background in Calligraphy, and he thought the then standard fixed pitch dot-matrix fonts were awful, so he pioneered proper font handling in the OS. It was a design decision, not a business decision that made their DTP market.

      Likewise, iTunes and the App Store didn't come from a business decision to take a cut from media transactions. They came from design decisions to make things easier for users. Downloading a song from a website, putting the file in an appropriate place in the file system, and transferring it to a MP3 player was more hassle or too complicated for most people to do. Apple designed a complete integrated system to make that easy.

      The incentive was never to control. To this day, with iTunes you can still rip your own tracks from CD, import songs in a number of formats. You can download from a website exactly as you could before iTunes store came along. The iTunes store is an addition to the facilities available, not a replacement. Additionally, against the argument that Apple wants to tightly control consumers is the fact that Apple pushed the record companies to allow them to put out songs without DRM.

    39. Re:Never going to happen. by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      The launcher thing is true, and indeed any slashdotter would know it, and most would be able to find a citation. Your claim that Apple execs had said they were going to merge iOS and OSX is however complete bullshit.

    40. Re:Never going to happen. by Andreas+Mayer · · Score: 1

      Nobody has thus far been able to make Apple bring back [...] nor the fullscreen-quicktime videos

      The QuickTime Player will happily play your videos fullscreen. That functionality has been back for quite some time.

    41. Re:Never going to happen. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I'd expect Apple to release a VM appliance or boot disk for development once they phase out/assimilate OSX.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    42. Re:Never going to happen. by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      No trolling here. I thought the same way you did...for about a day. I was testing Lion at work, and using Snow Leopard on my production machine so I had to use both scrolling behaviors at the same time. After a day or so, the "new" way just makes more sense.

      You prefer the old way because it's what you know. People don't like to change. I'm not saying Apple is telling you what's better, I'm saying they have HID experts who do.

      Another thing people aren't considering is the totality of the gestures. Natural scrolling (the new way) makes way more sense with swiping left and right to go forward and back in a web browser or full screen app.

    43. Re:Never going to happen. by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      When I got my hands re-trained on the laptop, I found that they re-trained on scroll-wheels on mice too. Now at work, where I use a Win7 machine, I constantly try to scroll in the "wrong" direction. Major pain in my ass. Needless to say, I've switched the laptop back to the previous scrolling direction, and am again re-training my hands to accept that.

      As far as I'm concerned, changing the default scroll behaviour in Lion was a bad decision. Thankfully I can still reverse it, but who the hell thought it'd be a good idea in the first place?

      You hit on everything I'd say. I like the new direction myself, I always go the wrong way on my PC now, and thankfully it can be changed by the user. Luckily I use a Mac at work too, so I've kept the new direction. It works much better in conduction with left/right swiping as well.

    44. Re:Never going to happen. by e4g4 · · Score: 1

      Why else would they cripple Lion server?

      I'm hoping it's because they realized that OS X as a server is only good as a toy server. People trying to get shit done on servers wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. OS X is (and has been for quite some time) an excellent client OS. It has never been worth even 1/10th of what it costs as a server.

      --
      The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. - Albert Einstein
    45. Re:Never going to happen. by c.r.o.c.o · · Score: 1

      Nice, we have a discussion going. Karma be damned. :)

      Your comment that companies are there to make a profit is a truism that vastly oversimplifies the topic. Yes, both MS and Apple are there to make a profit, but their strategies for doing so differ enormously. To think that because one company would do something to make a profit, another company would do it is mistaken. Especially if you think Apple would do something just because MS looks to be making steps in that direction.

      I mentioned MS's new Windows 8 to show that a unified interface is indeed possible or at least plausible across many types of devices. In your previous post you argued against that because of the widely different input methods, sensors, etc. This is not where my profits argument comes in. I will get into that later.

      Apple hasn't risen from near bankruptcy 15 years ago to being the biggest tech company now by simply snatching at every opportunity to make a buck. They've done it because Jobs goal is to create the very best designed products. In the correct belief that that's what people want to buy.

      It's exactly the same way that Apple got it's earlier market in DTP. Not because Apple decided that a future DTP market would be worth lots of money and so they pursued it. But rather because Jobs had a background in Calligraphy, and he thought the then standard fixed pitch dot-matrix fonts were awful, so he pioneered proper font handling in the OS. It was a design decision, not a business decision that made their DTP market.

      A few years ago I would have completely agreed with you. Apple had and still has some amazing products. The iPhone 4, iPad 2, MacBook Air, MacBook Pro are absolutely gorgeous products, with amazing industrial design. They just scream quality when compared to my cheap Acer laptop or subsidized HTC Desire phone. The amount of features or the costs are a whole different debate, and please let's not go down that route.

      So Apple are undoubtedly innovators, and the ease of use of their products, beautiful hardware and software interfaces made existing markets flourish or created completely new markets. There were mp3 players before the iPod, there were smartphones before the iPhone, and there were tablets before the iPad. But the relatively inexpensive devices in these categories sucked, while the good ones cost enormous amounts. I do think it took Apple to show other companies what a sleek interface is supposed to look like, what a good form factor is, what hardware and software features are important.

      Likewise, iTunes and the App Store didn't come from a business decision to take a cut from media transactions. They came from design decisions to make things easier for users. Downloading a song from a website, putting the file in an appropriate place in the file system, and transferring it to a MP3 player was more hassle or too complicated for most people to do. Apple designed a complete integrated system to make that easy.

      This is where our opinions start to differ. I agree at first iTunes and the App Store started out as means of making things easier for their users. But at some point Apple realized they are a HUGE revenue source. On the consumer end, keeping things locked down on as many different devices as possible protects this revenue. Why else would they revert jailbroken devices with every single OS update? It is pretty clear that the owner of the jailbroken iPhone meant to do it, and wanted it to stay that way. Why can't other applications interface with the iTunes Store if the ultimate purpose is to sell music or movies? Then want to control the entire distribution chain, from the device, software all the way to the server.

      If ease of use were the only criterion, they could keep the vertically integrated Apple way of doing things for novice users, while allowing alternatives for advanced users. If something were to go wrong with the alternatives,

    46. Re:Never going to happen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think you even begin to realize the magnitude of what iOS has done to human-computer interface.

      There cannot be a hybrid, as the old absolutely requires a cursor/pointer, which the new omits entirely.

    47. Re:Never going to happen. by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      I hear the server tools got downsized for Lion, since they downsided the pricing model radically, whether you want it or not. I heard that this meant NFS and unlimited FTP clients were also removed.

      Did the NFS server ever limit the number of clients? The server's still there in Lion, even if you have to use the nfsd command to enable, disable, and configure it (well, actually, creating an /etc/exports command should suffice to enable it). I suspect it's more likely that limits on FTP clients would be removed than that support for unlimited FTP clients would be removed, if Apple aren't selling the server version as an expensive product with different prices for different numbers of clients.

    48. Re:Never going to happen. by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      Why else would they revert jailbroken devices with every single OS update?

      Because it's easier not to bother to construct iOS in a way that OS updates preserve the jailbroken state than to do so?

    49. Re:Never going to happen. by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      If Apple were to try and implement a similar dependency in OSX, there would be a shitstorm overnight even if they tried it a few years from now. People expect OSX to allow them to install apps from whatever source, to tweak the system to some extent, and to generally own it. But if they attack the problem from the other end, by replacing OSX with iOS, not many people will even notice, let alone complain because they are used to the iPhone or iPad being locked in.

      Because adding those restrictions to OS X, without making any other changes to, for example, the UI, would be Very Noticeable, while selling a Mac running iOS with the iOS UI would not be noticeable at all. Ah, I see.

    50. Re:Never going to happen. by arose · · Score: 1

      It's not that they are giving the option. It's the they are presenting it as a better way to interface with your computer. Big screen and other OS X capabilities notwithstanding. The treatment of something so unremarkable as full screen applications as a first class feature of a major OS revision is quite indicative of the direction things are going (though it certainly doesn't tell us where exactly it is headed). Remember that they explicitly resisted this paradigm, the desktop usability principles (and their consistency) that Apple has been admired over are being thrown away for what? What is it if not a desire to integrate with their supper-popular appliance OS?

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    51. Re:Never going to happen. by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      It's the they are presenting it as a better way to interface with your computer.

      For sure they are selling the benefits of the new feature, as they would with any new feature. But I don't see anywhere where they are saying it's a "better way" than windowed mode.

      Certainly it draws inspiration from iOS. The strap line for Lion from the day it was first announced was "Back to the Mac", whose primary meaning was to take some appropriate ideas from iOS and implement them in OSX.

      But again that doesn't mean they are working towards merging the two OSs.

      You're overstating the case with "resisting". Apple Apps have long used the full screen where appropriate: Quicktime, iPhoto, iMovie, Aperture etc. And as for Apple being consistent with it's own Human Interface Guidelines - that was never true. Apple always pioneered with the actual design of it's apps, with the HIG maybe getting updated later to reflect the new reality.

      Unifying the OSX UI and the iOS UI simply isn't going to happen. Anyone with a feeling for UI design can see that it just doesn't fit. Hell, even on iPhone and iPad the UI isn't the same. The different screen sizes suggest different app paradigms. The drilling down through lists model of the iPhone vs the master/detail model of the iPad.

      Unifying the codebases and SDKs for OSX and iOS, whilst keeping different UIs is more plausible. But that wouldn't be presaged by UI changes.

    52. Re:Never going to happen. by arose · · Score: 1

      There's uniting and there is uniting. As you point out yourself the iPhone and iPad GUIs aren't identical. Nonetheless they are united is a very real sense and are both iOS. I don't think many people are saying that everything will be the same if iOS and OS X are merged, though it's a common straw man. However, nothing prevents them from becoming more similar, even when it's suboptimal (Launchpad makes little sense with indirect pointing) and ultimately merging into one, restricted, code-base.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    53. Re:Never going to happen. by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree generally.

      Launchpad makes little sense with indirect pointing

      I find Launchpad makes a lot of sense. So much so that I've removed the Applications folder from my dock now. Thing is if you try to arrange the Applications folder into some sort of structure, with sub-directories for certain groups of apps, or pull certain apps out of sub-folders into the main Applications folder, you can run into problems when you have an auto update, or install a new version. You can end up with two different versions of the app in different places.

      Launchpad enables you to create logical groupings by page and by folder, without changing the physical location of the app on disk.

      It also provides a bigger canvas on which the apps are laid out, such that you don't have to scroll to find an app.

    54. Re:Never going to happen. by arose · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense, merely that it is very much mimicking an interface designed for a touch screen. Big icons in a grid are easy to hit when you are poking with your fingers at a small screen. A bigger screen on the other hand is better suited for a menu like interface that gives more information about each application. A plain grid layout just looks cluttered on a 24" display (there is such a thing as too much information). Also, a longer description enables efficient keyboard driven filtering, something that is more useful on a more versatile device with many applications. Launchpad works, but it's not designed, nor optimised for big screens and indirect input.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    55. Re:Never going to happen. by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      On the consumer end, keeping things locked down on as many different devices as possible protects this revenue. Why else would they revert jailbroken devices with every single OS update?

      1) It's easier to do it that way.
      2) Jailbreaks increase support costs. If someone reports a bug or returns a phone it might be because of the jailbreak. It's always easier to have fewer configurations out there.
      3) Jailbreaks rely on security holes which have to be fixed to prevent malware.
      4) A primary use of the jail-breaking process is to pirate software. Why would Apple do more work to support that?

      Bottom line there's every reason for a new OS version to overwrite the system files that are on the phone, rather than to tip-toe around system files that might have been changed by a jailbreak.

      Why can't other applications interface with the iTunes Store if the ultimate purpose is to sell music or movies?

      You're the one that's claiming the ultimate purpose is to sell music or movies. So that question is one of incompatibility between two of your own opinions.

      For me, it's obvious. As I said, iTunes and the App Store are there to make it easy and pleasurable to get media from the internet onto Apple hardware. By far their primary source of income being selling that hardware. So why would Apple want to let other companies benefit from that?

      If ease of use were the only criterion, they could keep the vertically integrated Apple way of doing things for novice users, while allowing alternatives for advanced users. If something were to go wrong with the alternatives, it would not be solely the fault of those users who decided to step outside of the Apple way. For instance ship the iPhone with a default locked down OS, but give the users the option to jailbreak them through some advanced settings options with giant messages of "WARNING! Dragons ahead!" (I kid you not, that's what Cyanogen tells me in its Performance settings).

      Again, I didn't say "ease of use were the only criterion". I spoke about good design. And good design is for all users, not just novices. A good design shouldn't ever need to have "WARNING!" disclaimers. Apple are of the opinion that most people want well designed products that that are reliable and easy to use. They don't want gadgets that you can lift the hood up and tinker with. And their sales prove them right.

      (Talking of lifting up the hood and tinkering, one might notice that few people want to do it with cars any more, and cars are less open to doing it. It's maturing of technology.)

      On the business end, the lockdown means there will never be a competing App Store that would undercut them.

      That's true. But it also makes it less confusing for users, when there is a one stop shop for all apps. Android has competing stores, and yet far fewer Android users buy apps.

      If Apple thought it was a better design/easier to use/would sell more hardware to have access to multiple stores, then they'd no doubt do it, because that would maximise their profits. But it's not good for any of those things.

      This stuff might make more sense if you read "The Paradox of Choice". And the design stuff if you read "The Invisible Computer".

      I realize if you are an Apple consumer this is not a pleasant pill to swallow

      Not at all. I appreciate perfectly well, and rather better than you the reasons behind Apple's designs. I buy Apple products with full knowledge. And whilst they aren't perfect, they have the best designed hardware, software and integrated systems in the consumer marketplace.

      Here's the thing - EVERYBODY has choice. They can choose what device ecosystem to buy into. And from that choice, Apple is the most popular choice of smartphone manufacturer, tablet manufacturer, and if the trends continue, in a few years they'll be the most popular choice for laptops and desktops too.

  10. Let's hope this means iOS becomes more like OSX by Kethinov · · Score: 2

    I could live with this if it means iOS+OSX = no more iOS DRM: allow users to gain root and allow users to install apps from arbitrary sources.

    You know, like OSX.

    If instead it means iOS+OSX means OSX gains the aforementioned DRM, I'm done with Apple forever.

    --
    You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
    1. Re:Let's hope this means iOS becomes more like OSX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HTC announced recently that they are going to unlock their bootloaders. It's not root out of the box, but it's a hell of a lot better than having to exploit your own phone to get root.

      Perhaps Apple will move this direction?

    2. Re:Let's hope this means iOS becomes more like OSX by rsborg · · Score: 1

      I could live with this if it means iOS+OSX = no more iOS DRM: allow users to gain root and allow users to install apps from arbitrary sources.

      You know, like OSX.

      If instead it means iOS+OSX means OSX gains the aforementioned DRM, I'm done with Apple forever.

      You're dreaming. Even freedom-loving Google has, in absentia, allowed DRM (see locked bootloaders on Droid2, G2, etc) on devices bearing their brand. However, I don't think it makes sense to have a hybrid iOSX yet (if ever). What is more likely, is that the ARM target code for iOS will be backported into OSX and OSX 10.8 will likely run on ARM (and also Intel).

      The ARM MacBook Air makes a shit-ton of sense... it will reduce costs, increase Apple's control over the hardware, lock more folks into the Mac App Store and Apple's XCode (since it would be their toolchain that can target OSX_ARM accurately), all without needing DRM (though they may still add it). It was pretty amusing to see that Fake Tim Cook already exists and commented about this on asymco a few months ago (cant find link to comment): "Wait till you see us put an A6 into the 2012 MacBook Air"

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    3. Re:Let's hope this means iOS becomes more like OSX by am+2k · · Score: 1

      If instead it means iOS+OSX means OSX gains the aforementioned DRM, I'm done with Apple forever.

      Unfortunately, right now it looks like it's heading exactly in this direction.

      Right now, the Mac App Store is very dominant for Mac software, and it will become very restrictive in the near future (even more than the iOS store has ever been). As a Mac developer myself, I can speak from experience that having a product not in the Mac App Store is a death sentence for it, so I have to implement my apps in the way Apple allows me to, even when you could install it manually in theory.

      The next step would be to make the Dashboard the default application instead of the Finder. This way, non-experts have absolutely no way to install any third party application from outside the Mac App Store. I can totally see that happen in 10.8.

    4. Re:Let's hope this means iOS becomes more like OSX by am+2k · · Score: 1

      Erm, I meant Launchpad instead of Dashboard. I always mix them up (and have disabled both).

    5. Re:Let's hope this means iOS becomes more like OSX by kangsterizer · · Score: 1

      And tomorrow, pig will fly. Sorry, but they love DRM and lock ins.

    6. Re:Let's hope this means iOS becomes more like OSX by godglike · · Score: 1

      Just download the DevKit and build from source. Works for me.

  11. Re:In fact its more that rumors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Above link is GOATSE!

  12. Re:What about virtualization? by Ossifer · · Score: 1

    And thus mac development will be limited to writing word processing apps?

  13. Stupid and technically ignorant by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    OSX and iOS share a common base, but it does not mean they will merge. Apple has stated repeatedly that touch screen devices are fundamentally different than desktops/laptops. While they may borrow UI features back and forth they are never going to merge into one unified device or GUI.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Stupid and technically ignorant by QuasiSteve · · Score: 1

      Apple has stated repeatedly that touch screen devices are fundamentally different than desktops/laptops. While they may borrow UI features back and forth they are never going to merge into one unified device or GUI.

      While they are 'fundamentally different', that doesn't mean that they're not poking at the foundations.

      You mention borrowing UI features, so you might be including the recent decision for the scrollbar direction reversal - defended (as usual, the shill that he is) by David Pogue as being far more natural.. slide down to make the page slide down, who could argue with that logic - for it applies to the real world and whaddayaknow touch devices, too.

      This despite the fundamental point of a scrollbar, vs scrolling a page, being that it tells you where you are in a documen. It, in essence, defines the viewscreen's position, rather than the underlying page.. There's even extensions for FireFox that will put little markers near the scrollbar for search hits on a page ( https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/scrollbar-search-highlighter/ ).

      All of those conventions, however.. thrown out in Lion. Yes, you can still change it back - and maybe if enough people do so, Apple will revert this change in the next OS X. But I wouldn't count no it.

      That change, like many before it, most definitely point to a continued merger of OS X and iOS paradigms.
      Will they be merged into a unified GUI? Probably not. Most likely there will still be GUI- and input-related differences between a desktop and a tablet, just as there are between a tablet and a(n i)phone.
      But that doesn't mean the underlying OS can't be the result of a complete merger.

    2. Re:Stupid and technically ignorant by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      slide down to make the page slide down, who could argue with that logic - for it applies to the real world and whaddayaknow touch devices, too.

      Touch pads are touch devices. That's why that logic is applied ONLY when touch-based input is used.

      The difference between the systems is one is interacting with the screen directly, the other is removed (and mandates a keyboard).

      This despite the fundamental point of a scrollbar, vs scrolling a page, being that it tells you where you are in a document

      The scrollbar, when visible, still tells you where you are in the document. And as noted you can turn it back on for permanent display if it's too weird for you to query by touch.

      That change, like many before it, most definitely point to a continued merger of OS X and iOS paradigms.

      It's like saying if I put a Type R badge on my car, within a month I'll be owning a type R.

      There's no merger, just as I said a borrowing of good UI ideas back and forth.

      Will they be merged into a unified GUI? Probably not.

      And that right there is exactly what I am saying. You can't say in one breath the two paradigms are "merging" and then claim they are not.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    3. Re:Stupid and technically ignorant by chispito · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Apple has stated repeatedly that

      computer mice need only one button and no scroll wheel
      the Power PC is a faster and better platform than x86
      Apple is not going to release a netbook

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    4. Re:Stupid and technically ignorant by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 2

      OSX and iOS share a common base, but it does not mean they will merge. Apple has stated repeatedly that touch screen devices are fundamentally different than desktops/laptops. While they may borrow UI features back and forth they are never going to merge into one unified device or GUI.

      I'm afraid your subject line is a better description of your post than the original speculation.

      Apple has stated repeatedly all kinds of nonsense - for example originally HTML apps on iPhone were 'a really sweet solution' and the future of iOS, before iBooks was launched 'no-one reads any more', before the iPod Nano was launched 'no-one watches video on these tiny devices', Carbon was an equal partner and would always be supported, until it wasn't. etc, etc, etc. Most of their public statements are misdirection or misinformation, so if you're trying to work out what they are going to do, I wouldn't attempt to quote Apple pronouncements as if they are gospel or revealed truth. You can in fact usually see them do the exact opposite of what they claim they will. It is more instructive to look at what they have done with Lion: started to merge the UI of iOS and Mac OS.

      There are two issues with merging iOS and Mac OS, neither of which are a deal-breaker:

      * The two have a completely different (though substantially similar and overlapping) UI stack and set of APIs. iOS is the newer one and has been getting the most attention the last few years - draw from that what conclusions you will.
      * The two do not have compatible UIs, and the desktop UI would not make sense on a touch screen and would be impossible to use. The touch screen UI and conventions however, works pretty damn well on a desktop, and you'll see a lot more of it on the desktop in future, as Jobs has obviously decided that overlapping windows, saving files, hierarchical folders, and the desktop itself, are yesterday's UI.

      When I open launch control on Lion, or swipe around the UI, it feels very like using my iPad - I expect that feeling to continue to grow until NSView etc are simply deprecated, and the new shiny APIs are all available both on iOS and Mac OS, and then eventually we'll get to a point where they have one OS again. From a technical point of view, it's insane for them to maintain two very similar APIs indefinitely, particularly when they are becoming more and more similar. It is quite possible for them to merge them, and you might not like it, but Apple really don't care what you think.

      Personally I think they are clearly going to merge the two, or rather iOS will subsume and replace what remains of Mac OS, as Cocoa did Carbon, and Carbon did Mac OS 9 - Apple is not afraid to completely throw away the rule book, piss off third party developers yet again, or completely contradict their recent statements with their actions. That's what makes them interesting, and somewhat dangerous.

    5. Re:Stupid and technically ignorant by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Apple has stated repeatedly that

      computer mice need only one button and no scroll wheel

      Hey thanks for the argument that hasn't been valid for 10 years! Have you even used a Mac?

      And for the record, PowerPC was faster than the equivalent x86 (not sure how you can even argue otherwise) and Apple never released a netbook. What's your point?

    6. Re:Stupid and technically ignorant by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      The Apple cognoscenti were always quick to dismiss the need for multitasking on a phone, as something that was never needed. And then when iOS 4.0 it was of course 180 degrees opposite - that unless you had multitasking you didn't have a real smartphone. Apple's story will change as soon as they figure out that the market either wants the same UI, or that other competitors begin to succeed with those features. At which time Apple will proclaim they have it now, it is a must-have, and was part of the grand plan all along.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    7. Re:Stupid and technically ignorant by Falconhell · · Score: 0

      So you reckon a PPC 2gig G5 is faster than a 2 gig intel core porcessor eh.

      Hows life in management anyway?

      FANBOY ALERT!

    8. Re:Stupid and technically ignorant by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      The argument is valid right now because it's arguing against the idea that Apple saying something means that Apple will continue to believe the thing they said today, for all time.

      They really did make the one-button mouse long past the time when everybody else had decided that two was a minimum. They really did change their mind on that (and even afterward some people praised the one-button design for some time). Pretty clear-cut: sometimes Apple's decisions change.

      Apple didn't release a netbook, but it released a tablet. There's a real difference there and it isn't splitting hairs, but the point is that the statement lead people to conclude that Apple would be sticking with their $1000 notebooks as the low end portable hardware (and that this would be fine for the foreseeable future, and that iPods would not meaningfully converge with their traditional businesses). Likewise, arguing that touch devices are fundamentally different from desktops/laptops doesn't mean we won't find convergence eventually. The mouse is fundamentally different from the (hardware) keyboard, too.

      As for PowerPC, the point is they said that, and then they changed their minds. That's partly because of changing circumstances, but let's not pretend that circumstances are never going to change again.

      I'm of the opinion that eventually, they'll converge. That, or one will simply die when the other veers into a vastly superior or inferior direction (from the point of view of the marketplace). I'm not counting on it being anytime soon, though, like Wall Street seems to be doing.

    9. Re:Stupid and technically ignorant by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

      The G5 came out in 2002; at the time, the best x86 was the Pentium 4 (and the "Itanic" had sunk). The Core line only came out in 2006, and Apple migrated that same year. So, the fair comparison is G5 vs P4.

    10. Re:Stupid and technically ignorant by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      No, but I reckon a PowerPC G3 333 was way faster than a P2 of the same era, and a PowerPC G4 800 was way faster than a P4 at that time.

      But yeah, if you can only go back 7 years to the very small window of time when the G5 got overrun by the Intel Cores, sure. However, I'm going to just go ahead and go back to 1997-2003 and say for the majority of its lifespan, PowerPC was a better processor than the Intel chips at the time.

      This is the crux of the ignorant anti-mac argument. You guys are (mostly) too young to remember history. You cling to arguments like "one button mouse" and "PowerPC was slow".

    11. Re:Stupid and technically ignorant by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      You are exactly right. Apple, in 1984, decided to build a brand identity based on ease-of-use. If you ever got to an Apple campus, you'll see the constant reminders of Apple's "focus" (doing a few things really well, as opposed to long feature-lists of crap). They hang posters of the 1984 ad campaign of the one button mouse. A single finger pressing a single button. Easy.

      Yes, they clung to that ideology way beyond what the average user was capable of, but there were a billion third party options, and Apple themselves even included right click functionality in the OS, even though their hardware didn't have two buttons. They aren't dumb. They make both paradigms possible.

      Even today you see remnants of this focus. Right click is turned off by default. I think this is really stupid, but it takes 2 seconds to turn it on. In somebody's mind (somebody who makes a lot more money than me), it is more important to not alienate new users than it is to run the risk of irritating us power users.

      iPad is not a netbook. It's a new paradigm (built on an old paradigm). Unlike netbooks, it isn't a laptop replacement. Unlike tablets, it's not a computer in tablet form. I just ordered one for my wife. I hope she likes it. I am too old and set to let go of this Core i7 MBP with 8GB of ram.

      The PowerPC decision was easy. The Apple/IBM/Motorola partnership was falling apart and Intel introduced a ground-breaking processor design. Apple jumped ship, which was the single best decision they've made since 1984. The iPod Halo Effect + Bootcamp have doubled Mac market share in the past 5 years.

  14. I predict a merge too by FudRucker · · Score: 3

    of Wallstreet and Skidrow

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
  15. no way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not what everyone has seen coming for at least the last 6-months

  16. Here's my take: by fyngyrz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    OSX doesn't need -- and never has needed, and likely never will need -- the simplifications and limits that presently show up all over IOS. The current glitch in thinking over at Apple that has informed Lion with IOS like features is, I am confident, in error. On the other hand, the reason IOS needs these limits is because as of this point in time, the hardware itself is extremely limited... fast memory to support real multitasking, video (and main) memory to cache windows, the power budget presently required for same, small space to stuff the OS in, consequent loss of support for things like USB devices and complete bluetooth profiles... these things create IOS's limits; they're not there because they're a better way to do things, they are there because they are one of the only ways to do things, given the present environmental limits.

    But electronics, if nothing else, follow a fairly predictable path of increasing compute and display power in less space with a lower power budget. So IOS can -- and therefore should -- leave its limits and its modality behind, bring the capability to do more complex work with it. OSX, on the other hand should continue forward -- not backwards into ISO land.

    Finally, since access to Apple's App Store software library isn't open to competing tablet manufacturers, they (the competitors) are likely to strongly differentiate their tablets with USB, broad bluetooth support, a real filesystem and related file management the user can get at if they like, memory cards, and so on... putting some pressure on Apple to do the same (and thereby bringing over already existing OSX capabilities.) And of course consumers like more features -- the more they can do on an iPad, the better they will like it, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the things they could already do. That's the design challenge, but I don't think it is a challenge that Apple will have any trouble at all meeting.

    So yeah, we will almost certainly see a merge, eventually. But hopefully it won't be IOS into OSX; just the opposite.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Here's my take: by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      The current glitch in thinking over at Apple that has informed Lion with IOS like features is, I am confident, in error.

      We all believe it's in error, but some of us believe it will continue until the error prone management changes.

    2. Re:Here's my take: by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 0

      I want to see how well OSX works when the ability to run things like scripts is removed and only TrustedTM executables are allowed to be run.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    3. Re:Here's my take: by hairyfeet · · Score: 2

      The problem with your thinking the current trends at Apple are a glitch is simple, Steve isn't there and unless/until Steve comes back I have a feeling you are gonna see "the return of the Pepsi guy" as far as bumbling incompetence goes.

      It isn't just Lion either, look at how they burned and pretty much destroyed their small but quite lucrative market in movie/TV production by burning all the pros by replacing FCP with iMovie. Losing that market wasn't only stupid because of the money it generated, but even more than that it generated tremendous buzz for Apple by making them "the hip machine" which made the movies and TV shows you watch every day. You'd always see some director or producer on the behind the screens type shows in front of an Apple machine. Now that market is gone, switched to the competitors, and all that buzz is gone with it.

      Then there is the "don't say malware and don't help the customer" stink, which wouldn't have happened under Jobs, hell I bet the folks here can think of plenty of others. As much as Ballmer is a sweaty used car salesman, throwing shit at a wall in a "me too!" fest hoping something sticks? It doesn't even compare to Apple without Jobs. You just have to give that man credit where credit is due, he is the one who cuts through the BS and has the vision to see what needs to be done.

      Just let me leave with this little story I read by one of the guys who developed iDVD which i think illustrates why Apple has to have Jobs at the helm..."So we knew Steve was coming to look at what we were doing that day, so I had worked with my team to come up with all these mockups, with tabs for the various features and all the extras, when in walks Steve. He completely ignores what we've laid out and walks over to the whiteboard. He draws a box and says "This is the product. You drop a movie in the box and a single button comes up that says "burn" and that's it. that's what I want" and then he put down the marker and walked out while we stood there with our mouths open."

      And THAT is why you HAVE TO have Jobs at the helm of Apple. Without him the team was thinking button fest and featureitis and BAM! Jobs walks in and cuts through the shit. Even though I'm not an Apple guy I will give that man credit, he has earned his place in that tiny circle of kings of their domain, where they can be named by just their last names, Jobs, Buffet, Gates, Ellison. Like 'em or hate 'em each one knew what they wanted and had the drive and big brass balls to get things done. If Lord forbid Steve kicks the bucket I have a feeling it'll be a seriously bad time at Apple, maybe even worse than the Pepsi guy.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    4. Re:Here's my take: by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      It's an error that is easily avoidable. You don't have to use Launchpad, and it is trivial to revert scrolling back (although I prefer the new way better, but it has nothing to do with iOS biases...just makes more sense to pull the information on the screen down by scrolling down, especially with the hidden menu bars).

      The effort to include iOS like features is most likely to lure new users into the computer division of Apple, not the other way around.

    5. Re:Here's my take: by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      It's a bit presumptuous to declare the pro video market "gone" after a month of a new release.

    6. Re:Here's my take: by monoqlith · · Score: 1

      What? As far as I know, the people who resent the new version of FCP (that's what you're referring to when you say iMovie, right?) are just doing something very simple: not upgrading. Much like with Windows XP/Vista/7, as soon as the re-write of FCP matures to the same or better level of functionality you will see upgrades. No market gone. An entire generation of film and TV producers have been trained on FCP and will continue to use it.

    7. Re:Here's my take: by Mitchell314 · · Score: 1

      That would break OS X and most software running on OS X.

      --
      I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
    8. Re:Here's my take: by herojig · · Score: 1

      Exactly, or even upgrading and not using, like I am. It does seem that FCPX is work in progress, but that is no reason to freak out.

      --
      I think therefore I can't be ~TTNH
    9. Re:Here's my take: by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

      I think you're wrong that Lion's iOS like slide in it's UI is a glitch, and that consumers are going to demand things like broad bluetooth support and filesystem access/management. So far, Android tablets haven't hit in the market, and wireless usage indicates most users aren't using their Android phones as smart phones, but rather as feature phones that happen to have Android. So I don't think there's much demand for Android in the tablet form factor.

      I think increased abstraction away from the bare metal will occur on OSX, however, unlike iOS I think it'll be braindead simple to peel back the layers for several reasons.

      First, it'll alienate current OSX users on a level I don't think Apple's happy with. While Apple is an iconoclast and willing to piss off it's users, see the FCPX debacle, this seems like a bridge too far.

      Second, support for OSX would be a huge pain if you couldn't touch deeper into the OS itself. There goes all sorts of traditional markets for OSX, education, video, audio, etc.

      Third, how do would Apple expect to have anyone develop for OSX if it weren't possible for developers to shoot themselves in the foot? I don't think an iOS like application development paradigm where you pay Apple for access to your own hardware would work for reasons outlined above.

      After working in support and around a lot of non-tech types, I think Steve Jobs has a point when he said that users don't understand the filesystem and other things us geeks take for granted, but I think Apple would be stupid if it took us geeks for granted.

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    10. Re:Here's my take: by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 0

      You don't say.... but but but iOS is just OSX so you can just flip a switch and make it work, right?????!1one

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    11. Re:Here's my take: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would this be the same 'error prone management' that has accumulated a larger stockpile of cash than the US government?

      Face it... MacOS, and the Mac itself, is history. You may not agree but your opinion doesn't count.

    12. Re:Here's my take: by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Uhhh...I don't know where you got your info from pal, but in case you ain't heard they yanked ALL previous versions off the shelves a full week before the release of FCPx, aka iMovie pro. That means if you want to grow your business? Sucks to be you! Need more workstations for this flick you're working on? tough shit pal, better hit the eBay and prepare to be assraped by the profiteers!

      I'd agree with you completely IF and ONLY IF they had allowed the previous version to be sold and supported ALONG with the new. but they haven't, they have made it clear "take it or leave it" and mark my words they WILL leave it. You do NOT just yank a piece of software that companies are counting on to make money with a half ass new release with seriously missing features like lack of tape support. from what I've seen and read the new FCPx is priced and featured more like an iMovie pro than a FCP, and as I said those that needed FCPs features and don't have enough machines? Go pound sand is the word from Apple. NOT the attitude one should have and I bet it wouldn't have been done that way under Jobs.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    13. Re:Here's my take: by Y-Crate · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's a bit presumptuous to declare the pro video market "gone" after a month of a new release.

      FCPX is broken down to its foundation. No audio tracks? No EDLs? No ability to keep project files outside of the app itself? The list goes on. Every professional editor I know is deciding between going to Premiere or (back to) AVID. (Sorry Sony, Vegas isn't even on the radar)

      FCP is done. We've had the rug pulled out from underneath us, and we're not going to hang around and hope that the scraps of a good app left will ever be woven into something useful for actual production work.

      FCP7 was long in the tooth already. The last major update wasn't even a major update. The market's confidence in Apple to deliver pro-grade editing software is simply gone.

    14. Re:Here's my take: by kevinmenzel · · Score: 1

      I don't think the pro-audio/pro-video market are really that big a market, at least not compared to the amount of consumers they could pick up if they dumbed down the OS. Especially given that for the most part, pro-audio people and pro-video people spend a heck of a lot more on everything but their computers, compared to their computers, and in growing number have specific needs for their specific workflows that probably add to Apple's support and development costs. It's likely much easier to sell Grandma and Grandpa a simple e-mail and video chat device, and then support them with low paid scripted employees, than it is to make sure that the Firewire chipsets are as low latency as possible, or ensure that there are no problems installing the hard drives Native Instruments and East-West sell their sample libraries on now.

      I mean, for every pedantic professional who needs everything to work just right all the time that you lose, if you can grab like, 3 or 4 consumers on lower end machines, you're probably making MORE profit. Especially on stuff like Applecare, etc.

      I also don't see it really hurting their education sales much if they go really consumption based. In fact, the easier it is to just lock down the devices, and provide simple apps, the more attractive you've made the devices to the K-12 market. Downsize your sys-admins, buy Applecare for everything, and really, what problems will you run into with a glorified iPad in K-12? There are even benefits. Less risk of some kid knowing more than the under-paid sys-admin/english teacher and exploiting a hole, screwing around with "expensive school resources".

      It's short term thinking, sure. But that's fine in the eyes of most stock-holders, so what does it matter?

    15. Re:Here's my take: by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Apple clearly has screwed professional video editors with FCPX. This is just one more example of Apple moving aggressively towards the Money. It apparently feels that there is a larger market for iMovie + (which is what FCPX really is) than a true, professional video editing suite. Look at other Apple software - Aperture - not as powerful as Photoshop / Bridge and the rest of the Adobe Creative Suite. Not nearly as expensive. Good enough for some, but certainly not all professional photographers and not used much in bigger shops where Adobe is king (or queen depending on what you think of those maroons). Pages - not professional at all but more than adequate for most people.

      Apple dropped X-serve, hasn't aggressively upgrade the MacPros, has aggressively upgraded it's laptops and whatever you consider the iMac to be. Lion server certainly isn't pitched at the Enterprise.

      Apple is looking for a specific set of markets that they can grow in. Interestingly, it doesn't appear to be at the performance end of either hardware or software. I think Apple believes that there are many more sales to be made in this space (Prosumer? Pseudo professional? I'm not sure what you would call it) than either at the bottom, where the don't compete at all, or at the top where they haven't been a dominant player in some years.

      They're doing what is good for Apple's bottom line, not necessarily what is good for your wallet or sanity. If you're on the bus, well it's a sweet ride. If you don't like the route, well, off you go. The Microsoft / Adobe / Sony / Avid / etc. bus will be here shortly.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    16. Re:Here's my take: by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      I think you've pretty much nailed it (in fact I repeated much of what you said a bit above). Apple is very focused on a specific part of the market that has been ignored by the Geeks that run the other computer companies: The enormous slice of people with credit cards and no ability or desire to understand the technical underpinnings of what they are using. The Appliance People.

      Hopefully, they won't drink too much of this heady Kool-Aid and will leave OS X fundamentally alone. Time will tell....

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    17. Re:Here's my take: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But electronics, if nothing else, follow a fairly predictable path of increasing compute and display power in less space with a lower power budget. So IOS can -- and therefore should -- leave its limits and its modality behind, bring the capability to do more complex work with it.

      Your premise is fundamentally flawed. The simplifications and limits in iOS are not really about HW limits at all.

      Let's start with a deliberate limitation which is obviously not a HW problem: the filesystem. There actually is one. It's just that iOS tries really hard to hide it from the user, with great success. Why would Apple do this, given that there is a perfectly ordinary HFS filesystem underneath it all, with a directory structure extremely similar to MacOS X, something proven to work well on the desktop?

      Because of Apple's key insight, the single thing which has put them massively ahead of everyone else in this space. There are many other ways of putting it, but here's a nice succinct one.

      Ordinary. People. Do. Not. Want. To. Sysadmin. Their. Phones.

      Where by "do not want", we actually mean "Fucking hate it". The desire for a full featured pocket computer running a desktop OS, desktop programs, etc. is confined to autistic nerds like you and younger-me (I no longer suffer from this desire).

      Multitasking is another facet of the same problem. iOS always could've run multiple apps at once without choking. There was no fundamental limit preventing it. The original iPhone had better HW specs than many of the Macs supported by OS X 10.0-10.2 or so, after all!

      The real problem was that people fucking hate having to monitor memory and processor use to avoid having their phone slow down and/or chew its battery to shreds. In fact, they fucking hate being asked to even understand what memory and CPU time are, and why they have to conserve both. This is tightly linked to the reasons why they don't want to deal with a FS.

      This is true even of the generations that are growing up with computers from a young age. Yes, some get nerdy and enjoy this stuff. That will always happen. But most people develop interests in other areas, to the point where even if they can and do understand it, they'd rather not have to be bothered. They'll put up with it if they have to in order to be productive in a work environment, but outside of that, fuck it, they don't want to think about any of that stuff.

      OSX, on the other hand should continue forward -- not backwards into ISO land.

      I'm not sure what ISO land is, but it sounds horrible.

      Finally, since access to Apple's App Store software library isn't open to competing tablet manufacturers, they (the competitors) are likely to strongly differentiate their tablets with USB, broad bluetooth support, a real filesystem and related file management the user can get at if they like, memory cards, and so on... putting some pressure on Apple to do the same (and thereby bringing over already existing OSX capabilities.) And of course consumers like more features -- the more they can do on an iPad, the better they will like it, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the things they could already do. That's the design challenge, but I don't think it is a challenge that Apple will have any trouble at all meeting.

      Apple isn't going to do any of what you want. There were phones with all these features long before the iPhone, and Apple deliberately eschewed them. What makes you think iPad will be any different?

      So yeah, we will almost certainly see a merge, eventually. But hopefully it won't be IOS into OSX; just the opposite.

      No, we won't see a merge. We'll see something like what we see today: a very careful, measured approach taken towards integrating anything into iOS which has the potential to derail the deliberate, radical simplicity of the user experience, and experimentation with applying some of these principles to OS X without compromising its capability. Behind the scenes, APIs should converge.

    18. Re:Here's my take: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree I think most of the changes in Lion are actually good. Mission Control, while not very useful on my Dual Screen desktop system, is amazingly good on my 13" laptop.

      Although, I think trying to leave desktop style systems behind for pure mobile and small form factor devices would be a mistake. I really hope that they start showing the desktop systems a little more love in OSX.

    19. Re:Here's my take: by sg_oneill · · Score: 1

      Just for reference, iOS itself *does* in fact support full blown multitasking (and your quite welcome to use it in your code via posix threads and the like), however apple has decided to only allow its wierd serialized version of it on the phone because the *processor* is just too damn slow. Ultimately the iphone is #1 a telephone and under no circumstances should a user loading up 50 apps in memory slow the thing down where that functionality stops working. Unfortunately its hard enough doing ADHD task management on a full pc or mac (God only knows I'm constantly force-killing apps when facebook bloats firefox to behemoth size, photoshop chews a tonne of ram, eclipse decides to leak all over the place and all my background server tasks start destroying what sanity is left on the CPU, and I'm a computer guy. What chance does some kid on an iphone have when every one of the 200 $1 apps he downloads wants to live in the background to monitor for updates and download ads.

      Its an annoying decision, but I can certainly see the reasoning behind it.

      And no, its not that appropriate for a desktop computer. With that said, I'd love to see more apps take advantage of the faux multitasking serialize to disk apis in lion so that my crazy adhd "50 programs open at once" mentality would stop bringing the machine to its knees.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    20. Re:Here's my take: by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

      I want to see how well OSX works when the ability to run things like scripts is removed and only TrustedTM executables are allowed to be run.

      It's quite possible for Apple to only allow themselves to run scripts and other runtimes, in fact they've already started doing it with the App Store, and by hiding things like the Library folder and enabling autosave (so that the user doesn't worry about the file system). I expect them to fully lock it down in the future, so that the file system just isn't exposed, and the only runtime for development is the one that Apple makes available (AppKit, or later, UIKit). OS X can easily run in that state, it's just you would't like using it - the majority of people would not care or would find it an improvement as the OS gets out of the way even more.

      If we're lucky they'll allow developers some leeway on this and let them run whatever they want, otherwise quite a few people will be looking for a new platform which doesn't resemble a console, and the worst of it is that the vast majority of people will be happier with the new locked down arrangement.

    21. Re:Here's my take: by Elbart · · Score: 1

      consequent loss of support for things like USB devices and complete bluetooth profiles... these things create IOS's limits; they're not there because they're a better way to do things, they are there because they are one of the only ways to do things, given the present environmental limits.

      I don't know which BT-profiles you mean in particular, but sending files from cellphone to cellphone was "old" back in 2006, and iOS-powered devices still can't do it with non-iOS-devices. And I'm not sure this and other features aren't there because the hardware doesn't support it...

    22. Re:Here's my take: by biodata · · Score: 1

      > (Prosumer? Pseudo professional? I'm not sure what you would call it)
      Perhaps snobsumer? fashionfessional?

      --
      Korma: Good
    23. Re:Here's my take: by macs4all · · Score: 1

      I expect them to fully lock it down in the future, so that the file system just isn't exposed,

      You realize, of course, that not only can you get to every directory from the Finder's "Go" menu; but in ANY Get/Put dialog, simply pressing Command+Shift+G will allow you to navigate to any directory, too, by simply entering the path to the folder . Try it sometime. Launch TextEdit. Choose File >> Open. When the Get File Dialog appears, press Command+Shift+G. In the small Dialog that pops up, type "/etc" (no quote). Bang! You're in /etc...

      So, Apple already knows how to do this. They have been "hiding" certain directories from the Finder and Get/Put Dialogs for a long time. But, they also make it ridiculously simple to get past those (non)restrictions.

    24. Re:Here's my take: by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      But I'd say the bitch with trying to snatch the Prosumer (that is what I call 'em, you can call them what you like) dollar is this: For those guys they are often money constrained and you can do it cheaper on Windows as I and several of my customers have found out. I have some graphics guys and some music guys in my customer base and frankly you can get a nice AMD quad fully loaded for less than a third of what the most basic Mac pro cost and as you pointed out the updates on the Mac pro line are now few and far between and I wouldn't even be surprised if it ends up being dropped. And on Windows 7 you can buy prosumer sound gear or big fat graphics cards with big pipes and plenty of vRAM for a hell of a lot cheaper than an Apple equivalent.

      But to me the biggest fuckup of this whole thing is how much buzz they are losing. Apple under Jobs has always been about buzz, because buzz is what keeps them from being just another Intel OEM and moves them into hip territory. I can't count how many "behind the screens" type of programs I saw where you clearly saw they were using Apple gear for editing. That implanted firmly into the minds of those starting out in the biz "you want to be a pro? You use Apple" as well as making the consumers feel more superior about their MacBooks because "hey they make movies and shows on Macs!"

      But now mark my words with them giving the finger to the professionals with iMovie Pro aka FCPx and as you pointed out killing X-Serve, which was bought by many pros for FCP Server and killing previous versions of FCP so if they need to add workstations they are SOL? Well one thing you can NOT fault MSFT for is being unclear about roadmaps. if anything MSFT has been insanely detailed with roadmaps, you can find out before purchase almost to the hour how long you have on support and the third party pro software is quite plentiful. In the coming years you'll see big fat WinFlags on the "behind the screens" shows and the buzz that came with being "the machines on which movies are made" will evaporate.

      I'd just say this is yet more proof without Jobs leadership at the helm apple is a trainwreck waiting to happen. They are pretty much coasting now on products that were in the pipe when Steve was there, but what happens when they run out? Jobs was king at spotting new markets that weren't being treated right and taking them over with superior designs. Just look at iPod, there were MP3 players all over the place but the designs sucked ass! Same with the iPhone and iPad.

      While I've never been an Apple guy (I have a G3 B&W I got for free that I sometimes play with but am seriously thinking of gutting to make a bad ass AMD quad into the case) I do have to give credit where credit is due. Despite what the local Linux loonie here on /. who thinks "ur a sekret M$ Ninja!" I do sincerely hope that Jobs comes out okay and takes control back at Apple, although the odds sadly aren't good for that type of cancer. But just seeing how badly the place runs without him I feel sorry for anybody that truly needs Apple products to function without the man and his vision at the helm. I doubt very seriously he would have burnt the market like what has been done with FCP, he knows the value of being hip too well.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    25. Re:Here's my take: by uglyduckling · · Score: 1

      Ordinary. People. Do. Not. Want. To. Sysadmin. Their. Phones.

      I did an engineering degree and used to be in IT, but I'm in a completely different profession now, and not only do I not want to Sysadmin my phone or Laptop, I don't even want to do proper file management. What I'm really, really hoping is that Apple will resurrect the metadata dream and have a proper self-organising filesystem.

      Right now, the only visible organisation in iOS is organisation by App, and in each iWork App you get one level of folders - fine for 20 files, useless for 200. Also quite annoying because I might remember saving a document, but if it was e.g. a work roster, did I do it in Pages or Numbers?

      I'm hoping Apple will move to tagging files with metadata, so each file is tagged with not only its App, but any number of arbitrary tags. Then I could filter the files I see based on the tags I select - which project the file is to do with, where it originally came from (e.g. emailed to me by someone), and do away with folders entirely.

      This is pretty much the only direction I could see Apple going in - they can't go back to a structured hierarchical folder-based filesystem, and they certainly won't be able to keep the current "big flat list of files" when people are running into hundreds of documents, and people will get fed up with having to go via each individual App to find their files. Despite all the Apple-bashing on Slashdot, I think this is going to happen, and it will be yet another area in which Apple introduces a game-changer to IT.

    26. Re:Here's my take: by geedubyoo · · Score: 1

      You mean the same US government that has accumulated a $14.5 trillion debt? Surely no organisation on the planet has ever been so poor!

      Joking aside, I think you're probably right; Apple will drop OSX as soon as they possibly can. I don't think they should, though.

    27. Re:Here's my take: by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Face it... MacOS, and the Mac itself, is history. You may not agree but your opinion doesn't count.

      True. Computing has been ruined, curated computing is the future, and we hobbyists are a tiny minority who will be left to play with ultra-expensive custom-built specialty hardware and scraps from years gone by, just like car enthusiasts since the late '90s.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    28. Re:Here's my take: by kimvette · · Score: 1

      It's also a fairly trivial exercise to make those hidden BSD subsystem and "dot" files to display in finder. There is nothing wrong with simplifying a GUI, as long as the means exists to enable power users and/or system admins to get access to re-enable the more "dangerous" features and access everything. Some desktop environments fail at this, including on Linux. (Gnome, I am glaring at you here!)

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    29. Re:Here's my take: by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Grandma, Jenny the interior decorator and her kids will all love it! What, some NERD wants to do some nerdy thing on it? Well who cares what he thinks right?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    30. Re:Here's my take: by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I thought the iOS and similar control freakery was brought about because Control Freak Steve was in charge, and before that they were a more enthusiast-oriented company?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    31. Re:Here's my take: by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      A small nit, but they haven't upgraded the Mac Pro because there's nothing to upgrade to yet, other than slapping a new video card into it.

      Wait for sometime close to Intel's Q4 when they are supposed to release the QPI Xeons based on Sandy Bridge. You'll probably see some movement on Mac Pro then.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    32. Re:Here's my take: by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what "no audio tracks" means. http://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/fcp-x-audio-tutorial-part-1-adding-sound-and-music-to-your-final-cut-pro-x-projects-and-using-snapping-to-control-placement-on-the-timeline/

      Yeah, there's a lot of stuff missing, but for all the uproar (Lion pun intended) right now, it's a loud minority. FCP is the loudest, because of the workflows. People aren't going to leave Mac video editing just because of FCP X, because FCP 7 still works for them, and FCP X will get updates. Some people may leave and I wish them luck with the daily hard reboots required with Premiere. At least Lion's Resume feature will save your data when that happens.

    33. Re:Here's my take: by Grizzley9 · · Score: 1

      When talking about "merging" iOS and OSX, I would imagine it being similar to Windows proposed usage of their phone OS as a front end that can be used (or not). Similarly on OSX you'll have a iOS front end that can be used...or not.

    34. Re:Here's my take: by Creepy · · Score: 1

      The differences between iOS and MacOS X are at a higher level than the differences between Windows Phone 7 and Windows 7. Windows phone is based on the WindowsCE kernel, which is a developed from scratch kernel, not derived from NT like the current Windows 7 kernel. iOS and MacOS X, on the other hand, both run the same Darwin kernel and some of the same core components. So the main issue with merging the OSes is which pieces that sit on top of the kernel should be kept and which should be ditched. For instance, should they keep the full version of OpenGL with 25+ years of legacy or go with OpenGL 2.0 ES, which is used in WebGL? My guess would be Apple would go with the latter, mainly because they don't have CAD companies that rely on the legacy fixed function pipeline breathing down their necks.

    35. Re:Here's my take: by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

      Yet, if Apple wanted to go the route where they were pandering to the lowest possible common denominator, they'd have had a 500 dollar desktop and a 300 dollar netbook on the market years ago.

      This doesn't fit the Apple philosophy of putting together competent products.

      (Before people yell at me about how some OEM or home builder can produce a PC that's just as good as an Mac for cheaper, sure, but we're now no longer talking about the shitty super low end of the market anymore).

      Steve Jobs made the point that what we think of computers today are like trucks. Not everyone needs a truck, and less people need them. They'll still be around, and much like how Mercedes-Benz's most visible product is their line of cars, they're also in the truck and utility vehicle manufacturing biz.

      It makes more sense to leave OSX or OS 11 or whatever's in the pipeline for Apple alone on that basis. They're just going to be relying on them less as their core business. Given though, that the Mac is going to be the platform to develop on for iOS, it makes no sense to neglect the platform.

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    36. Re:Here's my take: by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      That's an interesting take on the 'Prosumer' market. From Apple's point of view one might argue that yes, you can do it cheaper, but it's harder (often too many choices) and Apple 'just works'. Before anyone raises their fins and flippers about that, I point out that this is a marketing statement, not necessarily related to anything real.

      Actually, I think that the market you described - people doing content creation on a freelance / part time / SOHO type of basis who are fairly cost constrained, isn't the "Prosumer' market that Apple is pushing for. For every content creator there are going to be MORE content consumers. Many more consumers.

      Those consumers that want something other than the Windows / Android / etc. experience for whatever reason will gravitate to Apple. I think this is fundamentally the wrong approach - that they need to look at it more like Nikon and Canon do for their professional DSLR offerings. That is the high end cameras give the sizzle to the brand even if they're sold at comparatively low volumes. But what do I know? Apple is doing pretty well at the moment whatever the hell their long term strategy is. I'm sure it won't last a decade - nothing in tech does, but right now Apple is riding high.

      Hopefully by the time Apple fucks up it's high end stuff, Microsoft will have gone to something based on UNIX and all will be well in the world.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    37. Re:Here's my take: by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Well I would have agreed completely if we were talking WinXP. Running Prosumer stuff on XP was nothing but "fiddly bits' but frankly Win 7 is so damned butt simple your grandma could set up a DAW or a graphics workstation with Win 7. It has drivers for even the more esoteric stuff already loaded into Windows Update so that when you plug in the device before you can even reach for the disc Win 7 pops up with "Hey I got a driver for that. Shall I set it up for you?"

      But the ones you are talking about, the equivalent of the "weekend warrior" types, I just don't see them shelling out several hundred dollars for FCPx when iMovie will do all that they will want. IMHO the difference between the pro, the prosumer, and the weekend warrior is this: The pro is doing this for a living, money is no object if it helps him be more efficient. The prosumer WANTS to be the pro, but is money constrained. The weekend warrior? Well they just want to make something that looks cool.

      The problem I'd argue with FCPx is that they are priced between weekend warrior and prosumer without being clearly targeted to one or the other. it has more features than a weekend warrior is gonna care about and by losing the pros the prosumers are gonna see what the pros are using and want something similar. To me it just reeks of some "designed by committee" brainstorming session, about the polar opposite of what Jobs would have done. We'll have to wait and see what the future holds, but I predict in less than a year and a half FCPx will be all but dead, its sales dried up to nothing.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    38. Re:Here's my take: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What I'm really, really hoping is that Apple will resurrect the metadata dream [...] I'm hoping Apple will move to tagging files with metadata, so each file is tagged with not only its App, but any number of arbitrary tags. Then I could filter the files I see based on the tags I select - which project the file is to do with, where it originally came from (e.g. emailed to me by someone), and do away with folders entirely.

      Interesting points. The "All My Files" feature in Lion's Finder might be a baby step in that direction. (If you haven't used Lion yet, it's the default view in new Finder windows now. It shows horizontal rows of files, each row being a different category: text, PDF, spreadsheet, etc. It's almost certainly based on Spotlight searches.)

    39. Re:Here's my take: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For instance, should they keep the full version of OpenGL with 25+ years of legacy or go with OpenGL 2.0 ES, which is used in WebGL? My guess would be Apple would go with the latter, mainly because they don't have CAD companies that rely on the legacy fixed function pipeline breathing down their necks.

      If you have an ADC account (it can be the free variety, the $99 subscription isn't required) you can watch the WWDC 2011 videos. The OpenGL sessions have lots of info which straight up says they're going with the latter, although it's OpenGL 3.x Core Profile rather than GL 2.0 ES. They didn't talk about any schedule for deprecating the legacy profile, but were making it pretty clear that it's time to think about porting to Core Profile. (Not just for forwards compatibility, but also for performance. It sounded like they were able to streamline the ABI so that when you request Core Profile, you get better performance than you would accessing the same APIs through the legacy profile.)

    40. Re:Here's my take: by kevinmenzel · · Score: 1

      My point is that they WOULDN'T have a $500 desktop or a $300 netbook, because those are general purpose machines, so instead they have a $500 iPad, and a $300 iPod touch. And given their current direction, there will be a point where selling the SDK for iOS development on Ubuntu or FreeBSD is going to be cheaper for Apple to manage than selling those people Macs. And if Apple can start selling laptops with an OS that is similar to iOS in terms of restrictions, but where you have 80GB of internal memory to save your documents or your photos, with an attractive interface to share what little they want you to share with their portable iOS devices, why on earth wouldn't they do that? They have an OS in iOS that broadly supports the computer as an appliance market, and is so locked down it's primed for perfect vertical integration. Why spend the money supporting and developing a full desktop OS when at some point you don't have to? Especially now that hardware is so overly capable of doing every thing the average appliance owner wants it to. You might as well turn the iMac into essentially an iOS console, and the MacBook into an iOS device with a hardware keyboard, because it's not even a niche you're feeding to. You're actually just eliminating niche markets and supporting the desires of the main stream. It makes a ridiculous amount of business sense.

    41. Re:Here's my take: by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

      You're incredibly off the rails here.

      You're somehow forgetting that there IS an ecosystem around OSX and there's still a point a point beyond that for Apple shipping OS X machines. Namely, right now Apple's one of the biggest sellers of notebooks in their price range.

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    42. Re:Here's my take: by kevinmenzel · · Score: 1

      I'm not forgetting. I'm saying that it makes sense for Apple to try to see if they can transition those notebook users more over to an iOS model over the next few years, each release selling the benefits of a model that is more and more closed, so that eventually Apple can transition out of the "generic computer" model into the "appliance" model. That's clearly not something that can be done today. But it's something they certainly have the clout to be able to pull off over the next 5 years. And what I'm saying is that in doing that, they have an opportunity to - eventually - make lots of money by dropping the most demanding of users, and the functionality that supports them, in exchange for the amount of customers they could pick up by changing the entire marketplace so that many more customers were demanding iOS in Laptop form, and iOS on an iMac like device.

      Because as easy as OSX may be, it still does loads more than it needs to for a good gigantic chunk of the audience that it does and could sell to, including all of the people who currently feel they have no need for a computer. It's got to be cheaper developing appliances for those people, than it currently is to build full-functioning computers, but that market hasn't been created yet. It's got a firm start though, and it's certainly a direction they COULD take their company in, and a good chunk of the world, if they wanted to, in a manner that would be incredibly profitable as they could easily sell a large selection of devices that did just enough, were almost identically spec'd but priced significantly different based on size and form. All it would take is a few years of introducing new features to OSX that make it particularly iOS like, marketing each change in functionality with sufficient "it's magic", and dropping things that are more general purpose from the background each time.

    43. Re:Here's my take: by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

      You realize, of course, that not only can you get to every directory from the Finder's "Go" menu

      Yes, I use that occasionally, though I tend to use terminal to access files in etc for example. You'll find on iOS, where there is no finder, files are not exposed to the user, and the file system for each app is entirely sandboxed anyway, that this harder :) You can still view the file system if you ssh in, but for normal users, it is not exposed, and therefore not an issue.

      While most denizens of slashdot would not agree with it, it is quite possible Apple will simply remove file system access for normal users from some future version of OS X, to make it more like iOS. Hiding access to the library folder behind an obscure command is a step in this direction.

  17. correct me if I'm wrong by SocietyoftheFist · · Score: 1

    iOS is just stripped down version of Mac OS X with a different interface isn't it? So the real story is that they are moving towards the iOS GUI if this proves correct.

    1. Re:correct me if I'm wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      iOS is just stripped down version of Mac OS X with a different interface isn't it? So the real story is that they are moving towards the iOS GUI if this proves correct.

      if osx lion didn't make this painfully obvious yet, i don't know what will.

    2. Re:correct me if I'm wrong by dudpixel · · Score: 1

      iOS is just stripped down version of Mac OS X with a different interface isn't it? So the real story is that they are moving towards the iOS GUI if this proves correct.

      as a programmer, I think its very unlikely there is a lot of shared code between the two. definitely the base system and possibly a similar kernel, enough to run the same base libraries, but the GUI would be almost entirely different. And the GUI isn't just some thin layer on top of a complex system, no, the GUI IS the complex system on top of a thin base system layer.

      Rather than merge the code, its more likely they would merge the concepts. Some code may well be portable (its objective c in both cases), but I doubt the merge would be trivial, or even possible in some cases.

      --
      This seemed like a reasonable sig at the time.
    3. Re:correct me if I'm wrong by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

      Rather than merge the code, its more likely they would merge the concepts. Some code may well be portable (its objective c in both cases), but I doubt the merge would be trivial, or even possible in some cases.

      Are you sure they won't just drop AppKit and move to UIKit by extending UIKit slightly to deal with a few more desktop concepts (those that they choose to actually keep, which from the look of Lion, will not be very many)?

      If not, why not?

    4. Re:correct me if I'm wrong by dudpixel · · Score: 1

      I'm assuming they will want OSX to be able to run iOS apps, which would require more changes than you are suggesting.

      Still, my assumption may not be valid. We're just guessing here really...

      --
      This seemed like a reasonable sig at the time.
  18. Since when has wall street made a solid prediction by Targon · · Score: 1

    Wall street people are fairly clueless about anything in the realm of technology, so who cares what THEY think?

  19. One World, One GUI by kakyoin01 · · Score: 1

    Apple has already clearly indicated this in its forecast with "features" like reverse scrolling. Apple, you'd be better off doing more development for (read: finding uses for) the iPad, than trying to make everything one and the same.

    --
    The more you know, the more you have to say and the more you should listen.
  20. Will be the end of what little corporate uses mac by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    Will be the end of what little corporate uses mac has left even the pure mac photo shop guy will look at windows then put up the limited file systems, app lock down and dumbed down apps and that is on top of paying $2,500 for a good system that LET'S use your own screen or pay about $800 + for a mini desktop + EXT DVDRW + EXT big HDD + Backup disk or for about $1000 or less get good PC + EXT backup disk.

    also the price of photo shop / CS and the lack of upgrade pricing on the app store make at price now for CS 5.5 makes apples cut $390-$780 per sale now web hosting much lost a lot less then $390-$780 per sale for adobe to sell on there own.

  21. Re:In fact its more that rumors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    lmao i love the username too,

  22. Wall Street Predicts Merge of OS X and iOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who gives a sh#t

  23. Re:In fact its more that rumors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Understand slashdot, you do not, young padawan.

  24. "Wall Street Predicts..." groan.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Wall Street morons can't even see a record tsunami coming in their own 'field'.

    If this doesn't happen, whom do taxpayers have to bail out?

    If that's where Slushpump gets its technical news now, it's over guys. Shut down the servers, Taco.

  25. Steve Jobs said this a year ago -- so a duh by GMGruman · · Score: 2

    Apple CEO Steve Jobs basically said this when he announced Lion a year ago, so the fact that this financial analysis firm is predicting it a year later strikes me as worse than a non-story -- it's a moldy story that anyone who's been following the industry already knows. And both Lion and iOS 5 show this slow but deliberate merger in action. The real news is that Microsoft has decided to follow suit with Windows 8: http://www.infoworld.com/t/microsoft-windows/the-end-both-the-desktop-os-and-mobile-os-upon-us-168915

    1. Re:Steve Jobs said this a year ago -- so a duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [Citation Needed]

    2. Re:Steve Jobs said this a year ago -- so a duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Steve Jobs, announcement speech of OS X Lion, 2010.

  26. This Happens Every Five Minutes by SuperMog2002 · · Score: 1

    OS X and iOS merging, Apple branded television, Macs switching to ARMs, subscription based iTunes, iTunes steaming, etc., etc. These things have been predicted by members of the media constantly for years, with subscription based iTunes being rumored for nearly a decade now. Why is this news? When drivers for Macintosh hardware start showing up in prerelease builds of iOS, then you've got a story worth printing. Until then, your argument has about as much weight as me saying they're switching to BeOS on Itanium based chips.

    --
    Sunwalker Dezco for Warchief in 2016
    1. Re:This Happens Every Five Minutes by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      None of those will come true, which makes me sad, because I really want subscription based iTunes (ala Spotify).

  27. What about Windows 8? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hasn't Microsoft already announced that Windows 8 will be doing essentially the same thing (Universal OS across desktop and mobile processors)?

    1. Re:What about Windows 8? by david.emery · · Score: 1

      Hasn't Microsoft already announced that Windows 8 will be doing essentially the same thing (Universal OS across desktop and mobile processors)?

      But now Microsoft has to actually (a) deliver and then (b) be successful in both markets. It's a risk for Microsoft, what happens if Win 8 tanks on smartphones/tablets, or Win 8 turns out to be Another Vista?

  28. Most logical time for it to happen? by countertrolling · · Score: 1

    When the iMac gets its touch screen.

    --
    For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    1. Re:Most logical time for it to happen? by david.emery · · Score: 1

      When the iMac gets its touch screen.

      Actually, that's already happened, kinda. I was given an Apple "Magic Mouse" ( http://www.apple.com/magicmouse/ ) which is both a mouse and a touchpad device. For someone with 25+ years using mice, it's taking some getting used to and I'm still not quite convinced by the touch metaphor for what I view as primarily a keyboard oriented device (laptop/computer) as opposed to smartphone/tablet. But if you actually spend some time with a Magic Mouse or use a MacBook Pro trackpad (or the Apple external trackpad), it'll be clear that Apple has already delivered 'touch' on personal computers. (And of course iOS and MacOS X share a lot of the OS core and internal structure.)

      If you have any interest in user interface design and/or hardware, regardless of what you think of Apple the company or Mac computers, you should probably spend some time playing with a Magic Mouse. It might not be revolutionary, but I think it's a quantum jump over conventional mice as an input device.

  29. Makes Sense (though WS is late to the party) by Lord_Jeremy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Normally I don't create new parent posts when there's already a lot of response, but I feel like just about everyone else who has posted has missed the mark. I'm a pretty hard-core Mac user. I'm certainly not an Apple fanboi - I'm quite unhappy with their new direction and I don't own an iPhone :P. Still, it has been pretty clear for at least a little while that iOS "computers" are Apple's goal. If you read the stories from the original Macintosh development team (check out some here), it's pretty clear that this is what Steve Jobs has wanted forever. His original dream of the Mac was an appliance, everyone having identical models that suit their needs in a generalized, mass produced way. Home computers running something resembling iOS are pretty damn close to that. And to be honest, as much as the prosumer in me screams in rage at it, it makes sense.

    Just about everyone I know that went off to a state school after high school either already had or bought an Apple laptop. I know a ton of people that got MacBook Pros, for no reason other than they're middle class and have money. Most of them won't use the resources of that computer for anything even resembling its capabilities. For a large majority of the computer-using populace, an iOS-like operating system is much better suited to their use cases than any of the typical desktop OSes. I know the slashdot crowd hates to accept this, but the average consumer-level computer user clicks the same three or four shortcuts every day: web browser, music player, email client/instant messenger, and piracy software. Bringing a tablet or smartphone-style OS to their home computer is less of a reduction in as opposed to a better targeting of capabilities. The walled garden model provides a huge boost to security (I know people will cry bullshit about that but face it, less attack vectors means less attacks) and makes things drastically easier to use. I hear a lot more about people's grandmothers figuring out how to use iPads than how to use computers.

    People in this thread have been talking about a reduce in hardware capability. Personally I wouldn't see that as a given. As hardware has evolved, so has software. Modern OSes and runtimes quite obviously have drastically higher overhead than of years ago. Again, personally I feel that in terms of efficiency operating systems have taken many steps backward. Regardless, MacBook Airs aren't by any definition low-end hardware, and the iPad 2 (and presumably iPhone 5) has an incredibly powerful processor for a handheld device.

    I defined myself earlier as a "prosumer." I base that definition off the fact that I make heavy use of the Mac OS X and iOS development tools, in addition to Logic and Adobe software in freelance and hobbyist work. It troubles me greatly that very likely, the consumer Mac OS will soon lack the capabilities that I have always loved it for. My personal theory is that there will be a paid "Pro" upgrade to the next version of Mac OS X, ala editions of Windows. Hell, it'll probably be available on the Mac App Store like the Mac OS X Server upgrade is now. Although I certainly don't like where Apple (and personal computing as a whole) is heading, it really makes a lot more sense.

  30. ANALysts by david.emery · · Score: 1

    Nobody ever said Wall Street understood the technology involved in the tech companies they are trading.

    What's worse is they don't understand the business end of the tech companies they are trading. Look at how poorly the "professional analysts" do predicting earnings, sales, etc, when compared to the independent bloggers: http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/07/20/another-apple-blowout-quarter-once-again-the-street-blew-it/

    The consistently better results from the bloggers show "the data is out there," you just have to understand the company well enough to understand it.

    I guess my perspective on the Wall Street analysts is the emphasis on the Anal part; that seems to be where their heads have been on Apple for at least the last several years...

  31. lol by smash · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The complaints about IOS-ification of lion make me laugh. Apple have taken 3 major features and implemented them in lion: extensive sandboxing of apps (a good security practice), launchpad (meh, its optional - don't like it, don't use it) and auto save (which is a good thing).

    And people are crying like its the end of the world.

    OS X and IOS are ALREADY mostly the same. The places they are different are for very good reasons (resource usage, small touch interface). If apple wanted IOS and OS X to be the same (which, quite frankly would be retarded), they would have made them that way from the start.

    I've actually upgraded to Lion and have lost precisely ZERO features vs snow leopard (well, except for rosetta, but that wasn't related to the implementation of IOS-isms and was already on its way out).

    --
    I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    1. Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      www.moydom-dv.ru

    2. Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah how can you merge two OSs that are already the same OS?

      They are both Darwin (BSD). Now, that said, they are different distributions of the same OS, with different built-in libraries and programs.

      They of course would be crazy not to share code where appropriate, but it's not always appropriate, and even Apple knows that. For example, making it so that newbie users don't have to navigate a complex filesystem is a good thing. Getting rid of user access filesystem would be a very bad thing. The main thing that makes my Mac more useful than an iPad is because it has a filesystem. I can save a file with OpenOffice and then edit it in MS office. I can take a screen shot from the web browser, and edit it in GraphicConverter, and later paste it into my Word document. These kinds of things, typically required for real work - are difficult or impossible to do on iOS.

      Anyone who thinks that an iPad is a replacement for a computer - try making a few hundred spreadsheets in Numbers on the iPad and then later go and open the one you want. (And then, try keeping them synched with your PC or Dropbox, sharing them with other apps, etc.).

      I am not dissing Apple, what they have achieved is amazing for what it is, but it's not a general purpose computer (i.e. Mac OS or Windows) replacement. Android is a little closer.

    3. Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the biggest thing about the Sandbox is that they managed to pull it off so that there really isn't any reason to not use the sandbox. You can access the filesystem as normal using the sandbox, with a switch to a different Open/Save dialog API (which has access to modify the sandbox to include the file/folder targeted by the user in the dialog). TextEdit I believe is sandboxed in Lion, but behaves exactly like it does in Snow Leopard, just more secure.

      That tells me that they understand the value of the filesystem to these computer users. Makes me wonder if some of the work for Lion sandboxing might make it back to iOS at some point (sandboxed prefs/etc, but a common user filesystem that all apps can point at with user permission).

    4. Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the hell is IOS? Seriously, it is OK, *and* correct to use "iOS".

    5. Re:lol by biodata · · Score: 1

      I thought they had also dropped integrated java and mysql. You may not use those particular features but they are a fairly big deal for those who do. If you develop, and these are part of your main toolset, then suddenly Apple have ditched one of their main differentiators. Why spend the extra money on the hardware when something cheaper will do the job just as well, since the extra money doesn't buy you a configuration that 'just works' any more?

      --
      Korma: Good
    6. Re:lol by am+2k · · Score: 1

      I think the biggest thing about the Sandbox is that they managed to pull it off so that there really isn't any reason to not use the sandbox.

      My three "I can't do that with sandbox!" bug reports at bugreporter.apple.com want to disagree with you. The sandbox doesn't allow many things that are perfectly ok without it. For example, my application Thoughts has a shelf, which is technically nothing more than a file listing of a folder, where you can open files via double-click. This folder can be relocated (e.g. to your Dropbox). This is simply not possible in sandbox, since I can't access anything other than my own private file structure (in ~/Library/Containers) or optionally certain well-known directories like ~/Pictures. Even if I could list that directory, since it didn't go through the open dialog, I can't open any file in it.

      A second issue is not allowing Apple Events (a high-level interprocess communication system). This means that all iTunes remote control applications can never use the sandbox, among other perfectly fine use cases for Apple Events.

      Apple introduced some temporary exceptions to the sandbox, which will be removed later (so they tell us). For example, I can tell sandbox that full file access to everything (subject to regular permissions) is ok. However, then the whole sandbox is moot anyways.

    7. Re:lol by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Both Java and MySQL can still be installed, there are even nicely made packages for it even directly from Apple (http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1421). MySQL was never included in the desktop OS (but still installable) and in the server OS, MySQL is still automatically migrated on upgrade but PostgreSQL is included and recommended. ZFS was at one point being developed into Mac OS X as well but never made it because of the Sun/Oracle deal and the licensing fell through.

      I don't think Windows comes with Java, MySQL or even their own MSSQL and Oracle doesn't seem to want people to use it's products for free (as you can see with the Android lawsuits).

      Sun should've been taken over by Apple, Google or any other company besides Oracle. Oracle as predicted has let go of the majority of the brain trust of Sun, strangled a lot of nice projects (like OpenSolaris) and will eventually require hefty licensing fees of all tech and patents Sun ever created.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    8. Re:lol by Phat_Tony · · Score: 1

      You're missing the potential of merging the two.

      They will merge. It will not be a problem for interface, because the OS will determine what hardware it is on and automatically present an appropriate interface. Likewise for resource usage, it will load different modules and run appropriately for the hardware.

      They didn't do this to begin with, because the original iPhone didn't have near the memory nor horsepower to do anything useful with a full copy of OSX anyway, it would be a waste. All it needed was the small, optimized iOS.

      Soon it will need both. Because Apple's new Thunderbolt display isn't just aimed at their new laptops. It's aimed at the yet-to-come Thunderbolt iPhones. The ones with no dock connector.

      Because the average user won't have a PC. The average user that ChromeOS is aimed at. The person with the $500 appliance-like budget box who only uses the web, who doesn't know the difference between webmail and a client email application using IMAP. All they'll need is an iPhone. And a really nice monitor. A monitor with a nice line of ports, for their printer and maybe ethernet and whatever. And one Thunderbolt cable, a cable that can, all at once, run a 4-megapixel display, a USB hub, firewire, ethernet, a display webcam, and charge the iPhone. Maybe a thunderbolt dock. Maybe a thunderbolt iPhone dock built into the display in future iterations.

      It's the future. As every year more and more users find that all their storage and processing needs can be met with hardware that can fit in an iPhone, it's inevitable. Will it cannibalize Mac sales? Yes, but so did the iPad. Apple can see the future and intends to own it. Even if Moore's Law promises a smaller pie for PC's as cheaper and cheaper machines meet the average user's needs, Apple intends to own a bigger and bigger slice of that pie. -- Can anyone tell me how to set my sig on Slashdot?

      --
      Can anyone tell me how to set my sig on Slashdot?
    9. Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What will they do when their iPhone rings?

    10. Re:lol by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      Anyone who thinks that an iPad is a replacement for a computer - try making a few hundred spreadsheets in Numbers on the iPad and then later go and open the one you want.

      Try installing a few tens of applications and then later go and open the one you want. But they fixed that by introducing this exciting new concept called "folders" into which you can put applications. Maybe they'll introduce that concept for documents as well. If so, they'll probably backport that "folder" idea to Mac OS X at some point, too.... :-)

  32. not quite by mbkennel · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No, the scroll bars are a proxy of "where the display is relative to the document", it is a one-step-cognitively-removed representation.

    When you "pull" on the graphics/text you are manipulating the document as a physical thing. When you pull on the scroll bar you are manipulating a controller which is itself a machine which moves the document on the screen. That physical analogy is unnatural.

    What would be natural?

    Now, *these* are *real* scroll bars:

    http://www.earlychurchofjesus.org/images2/torah%20book%202.jpg

    Really, we need a physical "spinner knob" on our devices---that's the most natural. But it's hard to manufacture and the phone won't fit in a sleek case.

    1. Re:not quite by pmontra · · Score: 1

      I think many people scroll using mouse wheels or a two finger swipe on a touchpad. Those movements happen in the same direction the page scrolls to so they mitigate the cognitive problem associated with scrollbars and they did so since a long time, especially the mouse wheels. Actually I never noticed the problem (but thanks to you and stewbecca to pointing it out) and scrollbars are a nice way to appreciate the size of a document and where we are into it. I'm happy my OS keeps showing them. Guess what I have to do in the web browser of my Android phone to check how big a web page is and where am I? I have to scroll it a little to make the scrollbar appear. That's a fair tradeoff on a tiny screen (actually a 4.2" one) but IMHO it would be bad on a 15" one.

    2. Re:not quite by Palshife · · Score: 1

      The correct physical analogue is not a scroll at all, but rather a flat canvas. Your fingers touch and move the canvas itself, and the window is simply a view from above onto that canvas. No knobs, no scroll bars, just a visual indication of where your view is in relation to that canvas' edges.

      --
      Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES!
    3. Re:not quite by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      Now, *these* are *real* scroll bars:

      http://www.earlychurchofjesus.org/images2/torah%20book%202.jpg

      And if the people responsible for iCal and Address Book get to influence other Apple software, you'll see those in TextEdit in 10.8 and in future Pages releases both for iOS and Mac OS X.

  33. ARM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not going to switch to another proprietary platform ever again. PERIOD. I will run whatever architecture I can run my DirectX games on. Apple if you switch to ARM, fuck you.

  34. DON'T CLICK - GOATSE by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

    Damn trolls...

    --
    Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  35. Will Merge?... they are the same OS by __aazsst3756 · · Score: 1

    They are the same OS underneath, with custom front ends for each form factor. If Apple starts putting the desktop OS in a tablet, its a sign that all the talent has left, salesman have taken over the company *cough Ballmer cough*, and Steve Jobs has just rolled over in his grave.

  36. at least windows phone has commen docemts by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    at least windows phone has comment documents area for some apps, build in trial mode so you don't need a free demo app and a full app, more open to in app user maps, and other custom stuff.

    1. Re:at least windows phone has commen docemts by dudpixel · · Score: 1

      at least windows phone has comment documents area for some apps, build in trial mode so you don't need a free demo app and a full app, more open to in app user maps, and other custom stuff.

      That's great.

      let us know when it has users.

      --
      This seemed like a reasonable sig at the time.
    2. Re:at least windows phone has commen docemts by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      The users will let you know. Or, they'll let the marketing guy know, and he'll let you know.

      It'll be a while, obviously.

      I don't think Microsoft is going to do a brown zune deal this time.

    3. Re:at least windows phone has commen docemts by unity · · Score: 1

      Funny enough, I just got one because a customer of mine wants a custom app for it to run on 600 new devices. It's a pretty nice device; my wife took it from me, later informing me that she will allow me to use it for testing purposes but otherwise she is keeping it.

    4. Re:at least windows phone has commen docemts by dudpixel · · Score: 1

      I've only seen one, and it looked a bit basic in the menus. But otherwise, I'm sure the phones are great, and the software works well in a microsoft world, syncing with exchange better than any other for example. The OS is still in development and quickly coming up to feature parity with android and iOS so it wont be long before it'll be a really decent alternative.

      however, I couldn't resist having a poke at it - just light-hearted humour. :-)

      --
      This seemed like a reasonable sig at the time.
  37. Sounds fishy by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    Pretty sure when the iPhone came out we were told that the operating system WAS OSX.

    Hmm. First it's OSX with all the berries and security. Than it's re-named iOS when the iPad is added.

    Now we can increase share values just by claiming they're one and the same again.

    Amazing. Accounting/economics is truly a mysterious art. One in which you tell your shareholders you're making boku bucks and then tell the government you're losIng money.

    LOL

  38. OS X Server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this that why they included OS X server in Lion?

    So this guy is saying iOS is going to become a server platform?

  39. I WANT MY Tablet Edition of iOS!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That'd be cool! I can finally remove the AS/400's from the lounge, run iOS on my new apple tablet and my laptop! How cool is that!!!!?

    Umm.. how much primary and secondary store does one of these new fangled iOS tablets have and what's the 5250 emulation like these days?

    Onscreen keyboard?

    1. Re:I WANT MY Tablet Edition of iOS!! by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      and what's the 5250 emulation like these days?

      It's like this.

  40. Re:In fact its more that rumors by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

    This is a photo of where all of apples ideas will be coming from, post Jobs.

  41. Is he predicting that performance won't matter? by Nelson · · Score: 2

    Apple spent a couple decades on 2 other less popular platforms before they got to Intel and for years they took beatings about performance and fabricating benchmarks or tests to stack the performance the right way. Now they are more than capable of building their own chips, they have the money and the know how but why would they do that again unless the prediction is that there will be a world where they aren't compared to Windows on Intel machines?

    Now I could see Mac books and Mac Pros with an ARM chip in them for certain functions and for the custom silicon that Apple adds to them. That doesn't seem totally out of the realm of possibility. At the end of the day though, someone is going to rip a blu-ray or render some HD video or count the FPS with some game and compare that number to the one made on a Dell with an Intel Core x in it and that's going to be that.

  42. Ya, it might, one size fits all is what... by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 1

    Well I agree that it is not wise, I think Apple with try to do it.

    As for the argument that you can shoehone a "one size fits all", you are missing the concepts; however, when applied to certain OS models is spot on.

    Regarding OS X as a whole, it is not designed to be, nor is it a modular OS, and this is why I agree with your base arguments.

    OS X has inherent issues that Apple mangled when it put OS X together from XNU, that is a massive spaghetti bowl, with a lot of duct tape and super glue to keep up with the technology. iOS is a better design, but even it has many of the OS X problems and limitations that are fundamental problems with the kernel architecture/model.

    Linux also fails the full modular needs of one fits all, even though many people try to make it fit this due to the OSS nature and some base coding that tries to keep it portable. However the monolithic kernel is what fails Linux to be fully modular, and the inherent dependencies that are also a side effect of the unix OS model.

    For example, if you look at the Linux kernel used on Android, it doesn't fit, just like you state. Android has to bypass key functions of the Linux kernel and handle them itself using only simplistic calls to the kernel. A good example is Android implementing its own scheduling and memory manager, which is crap. If Android were to use the Linux memory manager and scheduler, it would also have to include a large chunk of other services/functions that would be way too resource intensive/heavy for most phone hardware.

    However, modular OS models do exist, and they can handle the one size fits all better than expected.

    This is where people need to go old school in thinking and pick back up where the world dropped out in the early 90s. As some of the best OS theories and conceputal designs were abandoned when everyone went back to Linux and OpenBSD when running from Microsoft and the horrible Win3.x/9x/Me generation of OSes. (Which made a lot of sense at the time, as these OSes were crap, but sadly needed for the hardware generation they were designed into.)

    So if we go back to where the unix model was failing, in the late 80s, and pick up the best OS model concepts from the time, we can pick out some essential things that are key to a modular/portable/extensible OS model and set of technologies.

    This is around the time I was in University, and we spent a lot of time on OS theory and engineering concepts of the time, which is why today it is freaking amazing that the 'crap' we were trying to get away from is still considered to be 'awesome' by a large portion of the OSS world and especially the younger generation.

    So taking this in mind, lets pick out a few things that are necessary:
    -Object Based Model (Back then was overhead and seen as bad, today the overhead is tiny, and offset by the inherent extensibility.)
    -Architecture Agnostic (This is beyond portable, as the code doesn't have to change no matter what the underlying hardware is.)
    -Side Scaled Layering (This is moving beyond just a microkernel and a separate kernel API interface set, the layering should be virtually unlimited, with multiple side layers operating in parallel transparently accessing lower layers and providing access from higher layers.)

    These are just a few concepts that I remember were the philosopher's stone of OS theory back then.

    Oddly, these concepts were implemented in an OS within a couple of years. And as we expected, the OS was 'heavy' because of the complexity these concepts introduce. However, as time progressed, it started to really hit some 'surprising' strides in terms of capabilities and performance in just a few years.

    So ask yourself, when you look around at OS technology today, where do you see these conceptual OS theories actually in use?

    The best example, is one that people around here ignore and would never expect to be this advanced...
    Windows NT (aka Windows 2K/XP/Vista/7)

    It fits all these OS 'concepts' that the technology world was tal

  43. Apple staring down a gun by williamhb · · Score: 2

    I'm a Mac fan, I don't own a Windows device at all, but seriously I think Apple might be staring down the barrel of a repeat of the 1980s and 1990s from next year -- when their market was commoditised by cheaper less crafted competition and Microsoft ate their lunch. PC + Windows was not nicer than Apple then either, but there were any number of manufacturers cranking them out in different configurations blitzing the market. Android has started trying to do this to iPhone, but Google's bet on Chromebooks is still too early -- the NC's time still hasn't quite come yet. But from next year, Windows 8 will be that "not nicer, but now it at last has a finger-touch interface and can run on low-power devices it does the job, and a hundred and one manufacturers can put out a thousand and one different products" swamping them out again. Laptops with touchscreens, pads, convertibles, desktops with touchscreens, pads in different sizes, pedestals, you name it, someone'll be shipping it running Windows 8 and the exact same set of programs that run on all of them, run in your company, run all the browser apps too because Chrome runs on Windows 8 too, run Flash if you want it, use a mouse, or a touchscreen, or a trackpad ... Microsoft doesn't have to care about which ones do or don't sell because the manufacturers take the loss on that; so long as one or more of them are successful they're set. Most competitors are trying to aim a precision rifle at Apple to take them out; Microsoft is loading a cannon full of grape shot and getting every manufacturer in Asia to pay for the ammunition.

  44. Not going to happen... by tonywestonuk · · Score: 1

    If apple made eveything iOs, then what are developers going to code with?

    Apple releases an iOs SDK for windows?

    *shudder*

    1. Re:Not going to happen... by Required+Snark · · Score: 1
      The two options for developers under this scenario are:

      1) Windows

      2) Linux

      How likely are either of these?

      --
      Why is Snark Required?
    2. Re:Not going to happen... by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

      The two options for developers under this scenario are:

      I think you forgot the most likely option:

      0) iOS

      Same as Mac OS is used to produce apps for Mac OS X, iOS could be used to produce apps for iOS, so long as some decent hardware like the purported ARM MacBook Air was available. A port of Xcode to iOS would not be particularly difficult, it is already a thin skin over command line tools which would run fine on iOS.

    3. Re:Not going to happen... by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      Same as Mac OS is used to produce apps for Mac OS X, iOS could be used to produce apps for iOS, so long as some decent hardware like the purported ARM MacBook Air was available.

      And the reason why an ARM-based MacBook Air would run iOS rather than Mac OS X is?

      A port of Xcode to iOS would not be particularly difficult, it is already a thin skin over command line tools which would run fine on iOS.

      A thin skin over command-line tools that can chew up a lot of virtual memory; that works fine if you have enough physical memory, or an OS that pushes anonymous pages out to secondary storage, which iOS currently isn't. They could probably add dynamic_pager to iOS, I guess.... (Fun facts to know and tell: not only will dynamic_pager add new swap files if you fill up the existing ones, it'll also garbage-collect them by moving pages to other swap files if more recently-created swap files are no longer needed.)

    4. Re:Not going to happen... by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

      And the reason why an ARM-based MacBook Air would run iOS rather than Mac OS X is?

      There's no reason it has to, and no reason it cannot.

      The reasons for replacing Mac OS X with iOS would probably be partly political (iOS is Steve's 'next big thing') and partly financial (maintaining two separate but similar operating systems takes up double the resources, without providing double the return). None of us knows of course what will happen, but it is not beyond the realm of possibility that iOS will replace Mac OS X, and certainly lots of the design decisions in iOS make no sense whatsoever if they are planning running the two in parallel indefinitely (why set up an entirely separate but substantially similar view hierarchy like UIView with a different coordinate system etc etc when NSView could have been adapted?). I imagine it'd take years to transition if they do it though, as they port stuff they need over to iOS and drag their developers kicking and screaming through yet another transition/revolution. It wouldn't necessarily make sense, and might not be popular with me personally, but they may well do it, and it is not a ridiculous suggestion - it makes a lot of financial sense for Apple, even if it would mean yet more pain for many loyal developers.

    5. Re:Not going to happen... by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      There's no reason it has to, and no reason it cannot.

      I.e., there's no reason to assume that a rumored MacBook Air with an ARM processor will be running iOS and there's no need for a hypothetical Mac-running-iOS to have an ARM processor.

      The reasons for replacing Mac OS X with iOS would probably be partly political (iOS is Steve's 'next big thing') and partly financial (maintaining two separate but similar operating systems takes up double the resources

      There's no reason to assume it truly takes double the resources, given that much of the "core OS" code, and many of the frameworks, are shared, perhaps with some #ifdefs, so it's not as if there's double the code. Additional drivers are needed, but that's because there's additional hardware, not because there's a completely separate OS. There is additional code, but some of that may just be because, for example, the UI of a small handheld touch-screen computer that has only an on-screen keyboard by default (i.e., whilst the iPhone supports Bluetooth keyboards, the UI can't assume there is one) is different from the UI of a larger computer without a touch screen and with a keyboard and pointing device (and both are different from the UI of a tablet touch-screen computer that has only an on-screen keyboard by default, although the differences between the iPhone/iPod touch and iPad aren't as big as the differences between those machines and a Mac).

      None of us knows of course what will happen, but it is not beyond the realm of possibility that iOS will replace Mac OS X

      ...and it's also not beyond the realm of possibility that both will continue to exist, or that some newer OS will replace both of them, or....

      and certainly lots of the design decisions in iOS make no sense whatsoever if they are planning running the two in parallel indefinitely (why set up an entirely separate but substantially similar view hierarchy like UIView with a different coordinate system etc etc when NSView could have been adapted?).

      Because they wanted to make incompatible changes to the API, which they considered improvements, for an OS that didn't have to support old applications at the source or binary level, and couldn't make those changes in an OS that has to support apps written to NSView?

  45. What about Thunderbolt? by sdjimmy · · Score: 1

    Thunderbolt is Intel Only. I can't see Apple, who've invested a lot in the new technology, suddenly dropping it since it wouldn't be able to work on ARM.

  46. Re:What about virtualization? by pmontra · · Score: 1

    Mod parent up, even if it's an AC. You need some Windows VMs to test with IE browsers if you develop for the web. You might say Apple's waiting for Windows 8 for ARM but I bet there will still be a number of WinXP and Win7 users around by then (luckily Vista is dieing out quickly than IE6.)

    Furthermore, does anybody knows if virtualization for ARM is as good as virtualization for Intel? Will people be able to run an ARM version of Win8 on an ARM Mac as well as they're running an Intel Windows on an Intel Mac?

    Anyway, I can see Apple selling mid and low end Macs with an ARM processor and high end Macs with an Intel one. It will introduce more diversity in their environment than they had in the last few years but I'm sure they can handle it.

  47. Hidden Scrollbars + 'Natural Scrolling' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are iOS inspired "features" too.

  48. MB Air with iPad Mode (semi-virtual) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I see it more as an MB Air with a touch screen and iPad mode, i.e. switch to iPad apps using another CPU (Arm) on the same machine as your i7 MB Air of the future.

  49. Meh... another bright prediction from wall street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    some of those guys are the ones that brought the financial system to their knees right?, they usually throw stuff to the wall and see what sticks, why bother when they start "predicting" something said before by other's less technologically challenged than them???

  50. They're already doing this by Palshife · · Score: 1

    Mark my words. There's a room in Cupertino where this year's iMac is running iOS on the desktop already. People were shocked to hear that they'd been running Intel Macs for years before making the switch. OS X created iOS. iOS created Lion. Lion is the last OS X. iOS X (they'll likely skip iOS 8 and 9) will run on your iPhone, your Apple TV, your iPad and your iMac. This will happen sometime in early 2013.

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  51. All Mac's will eventually be live in walled garden by elrous0 · · Score: 1

    I've been saying for a long time that Mac's will eventually became pretty little walled garden the same as iPhones and iPads. And every time I say it, all the Apple fans laugh at me and say "No way would they ever do that." But, once again, mark my words, there will come a day when the only way to install software on any Apple computer is to go through the App Store. They've already started removing optical drives. All they would have to do would be to disable installs from USB drives and that would be that.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  52. Re:All Mac's will eventually be live in walled gar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So the fact that you have been saying something for a very long time now is proof that it will actually, finally, really happen very soon now.

  53. I predict ... volume of shares changing hands. by hAckz0r · · Score: 1
    That WallStreet hasn't got a clue about the non-usefulness of such a combination. They obviously have not been watching Microsoft flailing around trying to make a one-type-fist-all model of an operating system. Its hopelessly inept at everything, because it tries to do everything for everyone. If Apple starts making noises about doing this then its time to start divesting yourself of all your Apple shares. Sell fast.

    .
    What I also predict, is that someone on WallStreet is heavily invested in Apple stock and is looking to sell at maximum profit, and putting Apple in "the news" most always drives the price of a stock upwards, unless its bad financial news (WallStreet only groks financial semantics). When everything is down in price, getting a little "free publicity" generated is always a good thing for the price of a stock. Just getting the name out there is usually good enough to get some volume of shares moving between hands. Historically you can even look at SCOg, every time they lost^h^h^h^h were in in court more people bought shares, and the price usually went up. It just took awhile for the price to go back down to the dirt cheap value that it deserved. Its just free advertising to these Apple guys, nothing more.

  54. OS's may merge, but not the platforms by Theovon · · Score: 1

    iOS and OS X already share a lot of basic underpinnings. Indeed, you could think of iOS as a sort of fork of OS X. So it makes sense that a lot of redundancies will re-merge over time. It just makes the OS easier to maintain.

    On the other hand, the hardware is NOT going to merge. When you buy a PC, one of the things you want is PERFORMANCE. That need isn't going to go away. When you buy a tablet, a major driving convern is ENERGY EFFICIENCY. That isn't going to go away either. There are other differences as well, like weight, multiple overlapping windows, etc. The PC vs. tablet needs are incompatible. It's going to be a LONG TIME before any ARM processor catches up to any Intel processor in peak performance, and likewise, Intel is a long way from competing with ARM architecture on energy efficiency (that x86 translation front-end takes up like half the power budget of an Atom processor).

    There are also very differing UI needs. A tablet CAN have a keyboard and mouse but usually doesn't, whereas the PC always does. Moreover, UIKit and AppKit are very well entrenched. It may be that their underlying code will merge into a single library, but they'll expose separate function bindings that provide quite different functionality, and it'll make sense then to break it into three libraries, which is AppKit, UIKit, and the common stuff. (And indeed this may already be the case.)

  55. Re:All Mac's will eventually be live in walled gar by elrous0 · · Score: 1

    No, it actually happening will be proof.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  56. The foundation isn't broken by Quila · · Score: 1

    The foundation is now much better, fully 64-bit, using OpenCL and Grand Central. You mention FCP7 was long in the tooth, quite true. That's why the rewrite.

    The problem is that Apple didn't have enough time to finish everything else on top of that core. Apple should have kept it in development for at least another year before release.

    The worst thing about this incident isn't the software itself. It's the proverbial slap in the face to professional editors. It makes everybody wonder what the future holds for FCP if Apple is willing to release such an incomplete product. Might as well switch to a product you know will be supported in the long run, because Apple may decide to drop FCP.

  57. New scrolling by Quila · · Score: 1

    The new scroll system is designed to go with touch pads. You no longer need to deal with the metaphor of a scroll bar. You directly manipulate the pad as if it were the document.

    Notebooks are the majority of Apple sales, with touch pads in them. Apple also has a touch pad for desktops. This metaphor also works in the touch mouse, although you would use one finger instead of two. So this isn't just a software change, it's a hardware/software change.

    I do see a problem in that you don't know if there is anything to scroll at first glance. That needs to be fixed.

  58. What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The real news is that Apple has copycats? Uh, ok...

  59. Re:All Mac's will eventually be live in walled gar by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

    No, it actually happening will be proof.

    And it not actually happening will be proof to the contrary. It hasn't happened yet, and it hasn't "not happened" yet, so there's no proof one way or the other, there's just a bunch of loudmouths offering their guesses about the future as solid predictions. (The trouble with predicting "X will happen" is that it's obvious when the prediction is proven true, but, in general, it's not always obvious when the prediction is proven false; unless there's a time limit on the prediction, or something happens that makes it obvious it'll never happen - e.g., Apple getting out of the computing equipment business and switching to running a line of luxury hotels, or something such as that - the predictor can always weasel out of it by saying "well, it hasn't happened yet, but, mark my words...".)

  60. Re:All Mac's will eventually be live in walled gar by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

    All they would have to do would be to disable installs from USB drives and that would be that.

    Yeah, because God know OS X doesn't have an app called the "Installer" to install package files or the "Finder" to let you drag app bundles to /Applications or a "compiler" and "make" to let you compile source code and do "sudo make install" or.... They'd have to remove a lot more than just the ability to install from USB drives.

    (I presume you're not making an assertion that optical drives were removed as part of an Ultimate Plan to keep people from installing apps except from the App Store, as there's no evidence whatsoever to support that assertion. The last time I tried to use the optical drive on my MacBook Pro was a few weeks ago, when I wanted to look at the Snow Leopard disc to see what packages were there - not to install them, BTW - and I can't even remember when I tried to use it before then, so I wouldn't personally miss a built-in optical drive. I might miss one if we got a Mac mini as a media box, as we have a bunch of CDs that we might want to play or burn to disk, but that's about it. Dropping them from computers where people rarely use them, and offering the option of an add-on USB optical drive for those who do need them, makes perfect sense.)

  61. iOS is OS X! by Whatchamacallit · · Score: 1

    iOS (formerly iPhone OS) is really a port of OS X to the ARM platform. The base system is the same. The Cocoa and other API's relating to the GUI layer are different. When you Jailbreak an iOS device, you can actually ssh into a Darwin Unix shell. OS X is a decedent of NeXTStep / OpenStep operating systems which were ported to several different hardware platforms. I am sure that when OpenStep became Mac OS X and ran on PowerPC chips from IBM, that Apple had an Intel version running in their labs since day one. Actually, OpenStep was certainly Intel x86 compatible and they even had a system called YellowBox that ran the NeXT development environment on Windows NT! That meant you could take your OpenStep application code and recompile it to run on Windows NT and even look like a native Windows application. It's this cross platform ability that enabled Apple to leap frog the competition so quickly. Mac OS X is certainly not new, it's an old system that was far ahead of it's time when it was new. It's been enhanced and improved, but it's still the same basic technology. Microsoft had to rip Vista (Win2k8 kernel) apart to create MinWin (internal base OS) which is why Win7 boots so much cleaner. This MinWin was used in Windows Phone 7 OS. It's also the basis for Win8. RIM is way way behind. Yes, they bought QNX but they still don't have an native API development platform for it that even comes close to Android or iOS.

    Knowing all this history clarifies a few points that may be true from the article. Apple custom A6 ARM chips may actually make it into Apple laptops and desktops down the road. Course Apple's latest hardware is all 64bit so this depends on the future A6 chip being 64bit and including multiple cores as well. Apple is not re-inventing ARM per se so that means they will wait until ARM catches up and do their normal custom A# thing to make it meet their needs. Yes, I think Apple may actually do an ARM thing but it's way down the road. It's dependent on ARM providing similar spec's to today's Intel CPU's. Porting OS X to such a hardware platform is rather trivial for Apple. However, I do not see iOS and OS X merging into a single OS. The whole reason for using the stripped down iOS is to make it easier to utilize the extensive infrastructure and API's that OS X brought to the table via it's NeXTStep / OpenStep heritage. All the Cocoa library objects start with an "ns" header in the name. The .App bundles can contain multiple platform binaries within an application. i.e. PowerPC, Intel32, Intel64, ARM, SPARC, etc. This is how OpenStep did it many years ago and it's the way Apple did it with PowerPC/Intel Universal Binaries. It's how they will do it again if switching hardware platforms makes sense.

    Bottom line, OS X and iOS are not going to become one. But OS X may run on ARM down the line. iOS will continue and do it's own thing for some time to come. It's running on iPod Touch, iPhone, iPad, and AppleTV2. iOS might even replace the custom firmware in Airport Extremes, Airport Express, and the Time Capsule.

  62. TIL... by kuzb · · Score: 1

    ...that people on Wall Street really are idiots.

    --
    BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
  63. Macs first need to be on A5/A6 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It doesn't make sense to merge the 2 OSs until they're on a common platform. Actually, it makes more sense to put the Macs (at least the Airbooks and other laptops) on the same CPU - the A5 or A6, before they think of merging the OSs. Only problem - the ARM architecture is currently capped @ 32-bits, which means that anything above 4GB of RAM cannot be addresed. But if Lion doesn't need anywhere near that, and if iOS too is happy w/ less than that, it may not be a problem. Other option - Apple moves its entire platform from x86 to A5 - Macs, Airbooks, iBooks, and so on, and ports all its OS-X apps to iOS. Or else, move OS-X to A5, and if computing power is an issue, maybe make SMP based systems, and even have segregated memory for each CPU to get around the 4GB limit. Incidentally, is iOS SMP capable? If not, maybe just use A5 as the common platform, but maintain the 2 OSs for their respective platforms, like today.

  64. Toshiba too by DrYak · · Score: 1

    And toshiba has a similar product, the 100ac. That one is powered by a tegra chip.
    Comes with android by default, and can get Ubuntu installed on it.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]