Oracle's Java Policies Are Destroying the Community

snydeq writes "Neil McAllister sees Oracle's buggy Java SE 7 release as only the latest misstep in a mounting litany of bad behavior. 'Who was the first to alert the Java community? The Apache Foundation. Oh, the irony. This is the same Apache Foundation that resigned from the Java Community Process executive committee in protest after Oracle repeatedly refused to give it access to the Java Technology Compatibility Kit,' McAllister writes. 'It seems as if Oracle would like nothing better than to stomp Apache and its open source Java efforts clean out of existence.'"

Comments

Oracle is awesome

[Anonymous Coward]

Die, Java, die!

Re:Oracle is awesome

[Mordok-DestroyerOfWo]

Die, Java, die!

It is German for The, Java, the. And as we all know, nobody who speaks German can be evil.

Re:Oracle is awesome

[pooh666]

heh, you beat me to it!!

Re:Oracle is awesome

[dwarfking]

Ok, so say Oracle does end up destroying the Java community and you get your wish that Java dies, what replaces it?

Java is huge in corporate development because Java provides a complete ecosystem. It is a supported platform, there are large numbers of trained developers, it has a huge pool of good quality external components available from the Apache projects for example. It works.

You can go from zero to a working webservice, complete with connections to a database in a couple of hours. With some decoration you can change that from being XML based to JSON based.

You can build 3D games, using OpenGL that perform remarkably well, so long as your target platform supports OpenGL (not a Java issue).

And you can do all of this in one language, with one development kit, some well known, well defined add-on libraries that you can deploy to multiple operating systems. Or you can use a number of other languages, if you prefer to code in a different style and don't like the wordiness of Java the language. Java the platform gives you this ability.

Call it the new Cobol if you like, be all smug. Doesn't matter to all the companies using it and developers making a living coding in it.

I would really like to know what could replace this? I have been concerned since the Oracle take over and have been trying, for example, to find an alternative to a simple webservice world.

Today I can download, unzip and fire up Tomcat and I'm ready to write code, or I can use Jetty and embed an HTTP server and servlet engine in my jar file and make it a single jar deployment. Yes I know, I have to install a JVM, which is a simple download and install. You do the same with Ruby, Python, Perl or PHP. With C/C++ you don't need a runtime, but you have to code for cross platform usability.

I've looked at Apache with modules and CGI, tried out Node.js and Seaside (Smalltalk). I've looked at RoR and some of what is available in the Python world. I'm even seeing what it takes to build a web server (using PocoLib) with a connected V8 Javascript engine for scripting (I'm aware of the V8CGI project that makes a module for Apache, but on Windows, I use the MinGW toolkit, not Microsoft tools, and I've not be able to successfully get that whole stack to build, Poco builds out of the box).

But none of these has the complete environment Java and Java frameworks offer.

So, for all of you wishing Java would go away, please, what is a complete replacement?

This is Oracle we are talking about....

[Anonymous Coward]

Really, who didn't see this coming?

Re:This is Oracle we are talking about....

[Anonymous Coward]

In all fairness, isn't that what the release candidate is for? Oracle definitely should have tested more thoroughly, but Apache did have the opportunity to test their projects with the release candidate as well. Some bugs are particularly hard to trigger and I can imagine this is one of those, as it may have slipped through the net (both from Oracle and Apache).

Re:This is Oracle we are talking about....

[mzs]

Apache did, in fact they reported the trouble five days before the deadline. This was a show stopper, Oracle did not treat it as such, Oracle has a habit of this. What they should have done (keeping in mind how they treat bugs) is released on schedule but with the option disabled. But no this would have been too much of a performance regression, again Oracle has made crazy decisions in the past where they value perceived performance in some benchmark above all other sane reasoning. But really they could have in this case, then around the second or third update have this fixed and it would have been another great release all about improved performance. That would look pretty dang good in comparison to the current situation. It is just that there is clearly some disease that has spread at Oracle, and they can't think things through clearly enough when there is a deadline or benchmark involved.

Re:This is Oracle we are talking about....

[fusiongyro]

You know, I do agree with you. But I also think this is being blown a little bit out of proportion. No enterprises go and install the newest version of Java the day it comes out on their production apps. It will be nice if we get to start using Java 7 in a year. It's definitely not going to happen next month, and by then they will probably have a release out with this fixed.

I agree that Oracle should have treated this as the show-stopper it is, but this is just another sign of what we already knew: Oracle's business model is basically to create unreasonable dependence and milk it for all its worth. They're not about creating value--the changes in Java 1.7 are fairly pitiful--no, they're really just about getting large organizations hooked on their stuff and then making them crawl through broken glass to get it. This is just more broken glass. Our whining about it is going to have the same effect it has on other kinds of junkies: no effect at all.

Re:This is Oracle we are talking about....

[nabsltd]

No enterprises go and install the newest version of Java the day it comes out on their production apps.

For applications it may not be a big deal, but it is for desktops, for several reasons.

First, trying to turn off the Java auto-update is like killing cockroaches. Every time you do update manually (after any testing), it seems like the auto-update is re-enabled.

Second, although Oracle is not pushing Java 7 as the default download right now, it will likely happen soon, and then it becomes very difficult to locate older versions on the Oracle site (Sun was bad about this, too).

With all the incompatibilities introduced even with patches, this makes browser-based Java apps tough to keep working, which is why you see a lot of "must use IE 6 or 7 and Java 1.5.xx" instructions.

Re:This is Oracle we are talking about....

[blair1q]

None. None more didn't.

Look out!

[Anonymous Coward]

The Java Polices are coming to arrest yous!

Re:Look out!

[JamesP]

Java Police, arrest this man
he talks in NET
He buzzes like C
He's like a detuned VM

This is what you get when you mess with us

Re:Look out!

[X0563511]

For those who hear nothing but a strange whooshing sound...

Java Police, arrest this man
he talks in NET
He buzzes like C
He's like a detuned VM
This is what you get...
This is what you get... ... When you mess with us!

Re:Look out!

[X0563511]

Gah! It ate the first line for some reason.

It's to the melody of Karma Police.

Re:Look out!

[macs4all]

how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?

Probably as long as it takes them to fix it in Safari.

Round 1. Fight.

[Anonymous Coward]

We have the last Java 7 preview (GPL).

Fork the darn thing and see who lives.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[GameboyRMH]

+1 for this!

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[Anonymous Coward]

We could call it coffee!

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[Windwraith]

It's working for LibreOffice so why not.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[afidel]

Doesn't help since Oracle owns both the patents and the trademarks on the JAVA brand.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[neokushan]

That wont work because Oracle will still sue you for patent infringement (See Oracle v. Android).

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[Anrego]

Fork the darn thing and see who lives.

With their war chest of patents.. they could litigate any serious competitor into the ground.

Now whether they have any reason to do so is another question.

Personally I'd start transitioning away from Java at this point if possible/practical. It's a shame because it worked really well in a lot of situations :(

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[Richard_at_work]

Is it? I haven't heard much from LibreOffice since they finished merging in the pre-existing patches that Sun weren't willing to accept for OpenOffice.org. Have they actually done much more since then?

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[Richard_at_work]

Only if you claim its not Java...

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[hal2814]

Coffee? I like it. Java minus the pretentiousness.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[WrongSizeGlass]

Now whether they have any reason to do so is another question.

They are Oracle and they own the patents & trademarks. Those are the only reasons they need (and frankly, the first one is probably enough for them).

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[tonique]

I Can't Believe It's Not Unmentionable Programming Language, can you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Can't_Believe_It's_Not_Butter!

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[dAzED1]

Microsoft lost on the .NET battle because their efforts were commercial. Quite a lot of things in the OSS community survive (this type battle) based on the fact that they are not commercial - they're community-driven.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[archen]

It's early to say that LibreOffice isn't going anywhere, when they have years of stagnation to clean up. They've already merged features which never got into OpenOffice and there does appear to be a lot of code cleanup. The changelog does show real improvements, but I can't say if they're going faster than OO ever did since OO tended to be really vague on their development. They do seem to be fairly quiet considering they're picking up the mantle of a pretty significant project.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[TheEyes]

They released version 3.4.2 three days ago. As I understand it they're mostly working on bug fixes for now--lord knows they need it--and removing as much Java dependence as possible.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not if you stick to GPL, unlike MIT or Apache licences the GPL implicitly (GPL2) or explicitly (GPL3+) licences any patents that you own on code that you distributed under that licence to anyone else under the same licence. So if they stick to (L)GPL2 they are safe, for android Goggle chose Apache, but if they created a (L)GPL version it would be immune to the Java patents (but not others).

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[rvw]

Only if you claim its not Java...

Just turn it upside down and it becomes "enef", which could be pronounced "enough". That would fit the situation quite well I think.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[sourcerror]

IBM hasn't been sued yet, and they have their own JVM too. Or there's OpenJDK too. The current litiagtion now with Google is about creating an incompatible Java. (For compatible forks patents are granted. )

It's not the Java developers who are fucked, but the Dalvik developers.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[UnknowingFool]

My viewpoint is one reason I think MS lost the .NET battle was because it is really only limited to Windows. Through a lot of work you might able to run it on another platform but that's more trouble than it is worth. The cross platform reason isn't just a matter of philosophy; my employer has a ton of Linux/Unix servers. They are not going to replace them with Windows for the sake of a development platform. Now if they decided to replace with Windows for other reasons, then we will look at .NET but not before.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mozilla could learn a thing or two from TDF about enterprise partnering.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[blair1q]

If you can fork it, they presumably have ceded their right to enforce the patents against anyone forking who holds to the public license under which the forking was permitted.

The community will then survive without a corporate overlord.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[russotto]

IBM hasn't been sued yet, and they have their own JVM too.

IBM also has the Nazgul. And a patent war chest that would make your eyes bug out.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[lennier1]

Reminds me of the whole "IcedTea" clusterfuck.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[sl4shd0rk]

> With their war chest of patents.. they could litigate any serious competitor into the ground.

Not sure where you're coming from with that. (the bulk of) Java was open sourced in 2008:

      "Dionysius, God of Wine and Leaf brings news that Sun Microsystems will be removing the
      last restrictions on Java to make it completely open source."
      http://developers.slashdot.org/story/08/04/23/2037220/Sun-to-Fully-Open-Source-Java

Under the GPLv2, in a simplified nutshell, you do whateverinthell you want with the code and then make your changes available for everyone else. The GPL *is* a legal binding contract and whether Oracle (or anyone else) likes it or not, they can't take back what has already been released nor can they prosecute someone for monkeying with GPL'd code which has already been released.

That said, I have no idea what Oracle's beef is with google other than classic microsoft paid-for rape-and-pillage of the US legal system. I do know many,many of Oracles claims have been thrown out:
http://androidandme.com/2011/05/news/judge-orders-oracle-to-toss-out-most-of-the-patent-claims-against-google/

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[Anonymous Coward]

Stick a fork in it and see if its done. (FTFY). If the fork works, then its done, otherwise work on the fork some more. Oracle is a proprietary, "Larry Ellison is the only guy allowed to win" kind of company. I don't use MySQL because they changed the build and started to take it down the proprietary path. I don't mind seeing Java GPL'd either (I actually thought that Sun GPL'd Java before Oracle bought Sun). If Oracle wants to crap all over the Free Software offerings it is supposed to be shepherding (it can't control any of them because of the GPL), then it should seriously examine what happened to Joomla, XFree86 and dozens of other projects that were free, then some ass hat decided to get grabby and rule over all. fork(). And suddenly a new code base is spawned, a new website has hundreds of contributors, and the code moves forward at a surprising and rapid pace. The folk who tried to screw with Joomla? They tried to back peddle, but it was too late. No shipping Linux distribution ships with XFree86 anymore either, its all X.org. It appears Oracle wants the community to fork the code, and even if they don't, I see it as almost inevitable. At that point, Oracle has dealt itself out.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[X0563511]

I think you forget the part where Java7 -is- OpenJDK, with commercial bits strapped on...

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sun released it under GPL. Due to the nature of GPL that is a patent license to use Sun's own patents (which Oracle acquired).

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[afidel]

Nope, they used GPLv2 not GPLv3.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[JAlexoi]

In addition they have perpetual license to all Java related patents and a license to call their Java, Java(TM)

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[idontgno]

Sure. You can name it some good marketing name like "Dalvik". No one would sue a company marketing products based on a Java work-alike name "Dalvik", amirite?

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[idontgno]

And, most importantly (and implicitly), IBM is playing by Oracle's rules. They are working in areas Oracle has already permitted fairly generous licensing: Standard and Enterprise Edition, complete with TCK submission.

The licensing forked stick that Google got stuck in is that they're using a Java SE-like runtime on a mobile platform rather than licensing Java Micro Edition (or whatever its bastardized successor is). I'm sure Oracle would have wanted a few pence per unit for that particular license, and Google circumventing that with their own "clean-room" implementation "forced" Oracle to play the patents card, the license for which isn't apparently just laying around free to use.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[sourcerror]

That's great news for people worrying about the compatibility of OpenJDK.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[macs4all]

It appears Oracle wants the community to fork the code, and even if they don't, I see it as almost inevitable. At that point, Oracle has dealt itself out.

Here's another example, in the case of MySQL: Apple officially removed MySQL from the OS X Lion Server build, in favor of Postgres SQL. And this is directly because they (Apple) are concerned with Oracle's policies.

And of course, Apple deprecated Java a long time ago.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[idontgno]

Implied patent license. Not as strong as GPL3's explicit license, but the following language in the GPL2 Preamble is pretty persuasive:

Finally, any free program is threatened constantly by software patents. We wish to avoid the danger that redistributors of a free program will individually obtain patent licenses, in effect making the program proprietary. To prevent this, we have made it clear that any patent must be licensed for everyone's free use or not licensed at all.

And, even more persuasively, from Section 7 of the T&Cs:

7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.

If any portion of this section is held invalid or unenforceable under any particular circumstance, the balance of the section is intended to apply and the section as a whole is intended to apply in other circumstances. It is not the purpose of this section to induce you to infringe any patents or other property right claims or to contest validity of any such claims; this section has the sole purpose of protecting the integrity of the free software distribution system, which is implemented by public license practices. Many people have made generous contributions to the wide range of software distributed through that system in reliance on consistent application of that system; it is up to the author/donor to decide if he or she is willing to distribute software through any other system and a licensee cannot impose that choice.

This section is intended to make thoroughly clear what is believed to be a consequence of the rest of this License.

So, under GPL2, Oracle should theoretically be obligated to include the license to their patents right along with the distribution of the Java, or else be obligated to entirely stop distributing Java.

I'm sure Oracle wouldn't like that very much if someone rubbed their faces in it. So for now, they'll go on pretending their patents matter and that they can enforce field-of-use limits and patent license restrictions based on mother-may-I access to TCKs, and OpenJDK will continue pretending that Oracle loves them and cares for them and would never try to pull their patent licenses. And as long as they never have a real falling-out, the continued "frenemy" state will never have to explode into gruesome IP warfare.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[Windwraith]

They actually made a good number of releases already. It seems like a very healthy project from the outside.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[Anonymous Coward]

IBM hasn't been sued yet, and they have their own JVM too.

IBM also has the Nazgul. And a patent war chest that would make your eyes bug out.

And a Java license, that helps a bit too.

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[the100rabh]

Why take all that trouble, python ahoy

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[Anonymous Coward]

That is what this whole Apache thing is all about. Only compatible forks are safe but compatibility can only be proven with the test kits which you do not get for free ..

Obviously IBM can pay for them and did and OpenJDK is endorsed by SUN/Oracle so they get it too, everyone else is just fucked ..

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[Lonewolf666]

This is slightly offtopic and anecdotal, but there seems to be progress in fixing the import filters.

I have a particularly problematic Word document that both OpenOffice 3.3 and LibreOffice 3.3 could not load without problems. OO 3.3 would drop some text embedded in graphics, LO 3.3 messed up the table of contents. LO 3.4.2 ist the first version that imports the file without obvious problems :-)

Re:Round 1. Fight.

[metamatic]

Apple are removing everything that's GPLv3 from OS X (e.g. Samba). I think that's why they removed MySQL. I don't think it has anything to do with Oracle.

Java, truley an American icon

[Anonymous Coward]

Java is dead, and nothing of value was lost.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[fuzzytv]

Java is not dead. Maybe it's not the hip language anymore, but it definitely is not dead.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[jojoba_oil]

Java is not dead. Maybe it's not the hip language anymore, but it definitely is not dead.

Just like COBOL is not dead. Sure, it's not the hip language, but so many legacy systems are built on it that it's basically guaranteed to live for quite a while longer. I suspect Java will have the same fate.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Hylandr]

OP didn't claim it was dead. It sounded to me like he *wanted* it dead. Add me to that list please.

Wait, this is America, and people spent money in College learning it. Perhaps the government should subsidy the language and offer incentives to companies that hire these people...

- Dan.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[dougmc]

> but so many legacy systems are built on it [Java] that it's basically guaranteed to live for quite a while longer

I imagine that nobody is writing new applications in COBOL. New applications are written in Java every day.

Java may not be the hip new thing anymore, but it's being developed for heavily.

It took COBOL over 30 years to reach this point. Perhaps Java will reach the same point, but I'll bet it takes decades ... for now, it's alive and well. (Perhaps there's been a buggy new release, but all the applications using older releases are fine, with new applications made all the time.)

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, this is America, and people spent money in College learning it. Perhaps the government should subsidy the language and offer incentives to companies that hire these people...

Wow. Where the hell did that come from? Your guy on the radio got you all worked up again?

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Anonymous Coward]

My company IS writing new COBOL apps, it makes me sad.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[fuzzytv]

Yes, that's the fate of all languages. But the fact that you know how to build a rocket engine does not make combustion engines immediately dead.

COBOL is dead, or maybe in coma - it's not used for development any more, except for maintenance of legacy systems.

Java is probably the most used language of today. There are other popular languages - some older than Java (e.g. C), some younger (Python, Ruby) - but none of them is used as often as Java. This is not going to change in the near future (say 10 years), because the companies have invested so much into the whole ecosystem and there's no reason to ditch Java. Moreover there's no other language with a comparably rich ecosystem.

But I admit that with enough stupid steps from Oracle, this can change pretty fast.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[DrXym]

Just like COBOL is not dead. Sure, it's not the hip language, but so many legacy systems are built on it that it's basically guaranteed to live for quite a while longer. I suspect Java will have the same fate.

Java is not remotely in anywhere the same situation as Cobol. Java jobs are plentiful as is the development scene which covers everything from Android all the way up to big iron. There really isn't much to challenge the language at present though given Oracle's pathetic stewardship perhaps there should be.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, this is America, and people spent money in College learning it. Perhaps the government should subsidy the language and offer incentives to companies that hire these people...

Subsidy is a noun. Please try to look less retarded while saying retarded things.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Applekid]

OP didn't claim it was dead. It sounded to me like he *wanted* it dead. Add me to that list please.

Wait, this is America, and people spent money in College learning it. Perhaps the government should subsidy the language and offer incentives to companies that hire these people...

- Dan.

My sarcasm detector needs calibration, but, in the meantime, those who spent money in college learning a language and not the concepts behind the language got ripped off. Give fish vs teach fishing and all that jazz.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Hylandr]

Someone Mod this guy up...

- Dan.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Osgeld]

no its just a bloated corpse ready to pop and make a big mess

I never really understood the appeal of java, yea ok I get its "benefits" but I also get that that usually means I am going to have to install some annoying shit VM that nags me to update every 3 days just so I can run some kiddy script with a bad UI and just qualifying as functional program that runs 9x slower than it really should.

I have yet to see a quality java program the entire time its been out

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[digitig]

Any noun can be verbed.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Oligonicella]

And any cluster can be sentenced?

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Oligonicella]

Other than knee jerk, why?

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[GooberToo]

As PyPy matures and begins to rival Java in performance, I strongly suspect Python will begin to offset Java in the enterprise. Most studies clearly indicate Java is not a desired language by most programmers. Rather, most programmers program in Java because the enterprise dictated it. With Java/Oracle beginning to lose face, IMOHO, it opens the door for languages programmers actually want to use. This means languages like Python, which have extremely rich libraries, easily integrate with other languages, and continues to grow in appeal.

Ruby, of course, is not in the running as its positioned itself as the anti-culture (anti-enterprise) hipster language.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[fotoflojoe]

"OP didn't claim it was dead. It sounded to me like he *wanted* it dead. Add me to that list please." Neither. The OP was merely speaking in German. Ger: Die, Java,die! Eng: The, Java, the!

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[dloose]

He's got a pretty awesome sig too. This guy really tells it like it is. He's changing my whole outlook on the world!

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Anonymous Coward]

Any noun can be verbed.

Its rules of grammar, not suggestions of grammar :P

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Gilmoure]

I want to subscribe to his newsletter.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Gilmoure]

Yeah!

Jazz Fish ROCKS!

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[digitig]

If you are using a language with a centralised official body mandating correct usage, such as French or Esperanto, yes. English isn't one of those languages.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[shutdown -p now]

I don't think that a language without static typing will have a good chance in the enterprise, if past experience is anything to go by. On the other hand, this could be slapped on top of the existing type system; but I'm not aware of any work being done in that area.

More likely, I'd expect a statically typed OO/FP hybrid, something like a simplified Scala (Kotlin?), for the next mainstream "enterprise" language.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Anonymous Coward]

JAVA is a horrible, inefficient language that should've been phased out of general use around 2003 or so. Don't get me wrong, I've seen worse (god help anyone who is forced to use ColdFusion for a living...) but the entire concept behind JAVA - setting aside a stripped down VM and then running real time translation on every line of code between the VM and the physical system - is a horrifically bad idea. Sure, in an age where we had x86, Aplha, MIPS (in desktop systems, not just phones), PPC, SPARC, and 10 other archs, it made some sense. Now, 98% of us are running either x86 or x86-64, which the OS will translate vastly more efficiently than a program will.

JAVA can't die fast enough. My only regret is that Oracle is getting the pleasure of killing it. Oracle is probably one of the 4 or 5 things in the entire known universe I hate more than JAVA.

Hopefully after it does someone will open up Android some more so I can purge it from my phone. Ahh, that will be the day.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[GooberToo]

Type qualification is slowly making its way into python. They are considered optional but exist to allow for better JIT optimizations.

Beyond that, decorators can be used to strictly type arguments and whatnot.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[sosume]

.. people spent money in College learning it.

The universities should just have stayed with teaching C, Pascal, Haskell and assembly. Picking up a language because it is popular does not guarantee that it will still exist after graduation. They should pick only languages which are open, free to implement, extend and distribute. Universities used that logic for the last 25 years to not teach anything Microsoft related, they should apply it to java as well (and Apple too, now that I'm at).
By the way, to counter my own trolling, you spend money in college as well to learn Haskell. Ever used that for a real-world client?

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[hairyfeet]

It's feeling better! Java feels happy, Java feels happy....thunk. Time to put Java on the cart me thinks.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[shutdown -p now]

Yes, I'm aware of plans to use decorator for that purpose - IIRC there was even Guido's musings on that subject, which didn't quite make it to Py3k and were "indefinitely postponed".

However, what was missing from all of them - so far as I know - is static verification of type correctness. I.e. if you have a type annotation, the proposed spec would result in a runtime error at the point of the invalid call. I would prefer full verification in advance (not necessarily "compile-time" - for all I care it can still interpret all that stuff and box everything but ints - just a distinct phase before runtime), with type inference to cut down on verbose declarations.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Panaflex]

Cobol is not as dead as you think( think bureaucracy ) , Java is not the most popular language (C/C++ is), and stupid vendors can quickly kill even the most impressive technologies. The problem at Oracle is that they're treating everyone in the Java business as a competitor - not realizing or caring that Java is an open standard

Moreover Oracle all at once would like to leverage the huge base of companies who "need" java support into an Oracle support contract. But to do that they need to send out the brown-shirts to beat down all the "knockoff" organizations so that the big fish contracts will have no choice but to go to Oracle for new platform support.

Apache thinks they're all smug and smart over there - but in reality Oracle can just grab their code and wrap it up in support contracts and bundle it with hardware and OS support. After a while Oracle will come after them for Patent, Trademark, or copyright infringement (the trifecta of doom) - and after Apache looses badly - Oracle will demand ownership of all "java related technologies" - thus DEFEATING the SCOURGE of freedom.

All my predictions come true. Oh, prepare for mass starvation too. kthx.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[mldi]

no its just a bloated corpse ready to pop and make a big mess

I never really understood the appeal of java, yea ok I get its "benefits" but I also get that that usually means I am going to have to install some annoying shit VM that nags me to update every 3 days just so I can run some kiddy script with a bad UI and just qualifying as functional program that runs 9x slower than it really should.

I have yet to see a quality java program the entire time its been out

You're obviously ignorant of the full scope of Java and what it's all used for. You ran maybe what, 3 poorly written Java applications? If it's a really bad application, that usually means it was written poorly. It could be written in GOD language and still suck.

By far the majority of applications written in Java probably don't have a GUI interface at all, anyway.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[AngryDill]

Wow. Did you grammer that yourself?

-a.d.-

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[digitig]

If only. I got it from The Jargon File.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[GooberToo]

It you take a peek at some of the PyPy discussions, you'll find you're not alone. And some admit that a compilation phase during developing for the sole purpose of static verification, where possible, is on the minds of some.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[shutdown -p now]

Thanks for the pointers. I should definitely dig deeper into this to see where the wind is blowing. I generally like Python - if it gets that feature, it will become a truly awesome language, and screw Java.

Now to get Google to make it a first-class supported language for Android development (meaning runtime preinstalled & full SDK support out of the box), and it could take a lot of ground in no time - if rapid uptake of Obj-C as a result of iOS popularity surge is any indication.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Anonymous Coward]

Fail troll is too obvious.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[fuzzytv]

Seems you're right about the popularity of languages - according to http://langpop.com/, C/C++ is the leader (which makes me happy, because I use it too). Although I'm quite suspicious about this kind of popularity charts - mostly because of the data source (search engines, not real projects). I've studied statistics (I have a degree in it), and I guess I could easily tweak it to get Visual Basic to the first place.

I've judged the popularity by my experience, and (probably limited) view of projects. I work in enterprise / banking, and most of the projects here are Java-based. And I don't think that's going to change - maybe they could develop new projects on something else, but they have to maintain the current systems so they need Java developers. And when you have in-house Java developers, it's cheaper to develop new projects in Java too (otherwise you'd need more developers or developers who know both, and that's more expensive). And the banks generally like to have the whole stack from Oracle (including database and application servers) from Oracle, so switching just the application layer won't help them much.

The Oracle approach is very different from Sun. Sun was an engineering company, Oracle is doing business. I may not like it, I see myself as an engineer, so I did naturally like how Sun did it, but in the end it was not very successful.

And I don't see any fault on Apache Foundation side. The fact that there is a pool of projects and various vendors can sell support, that's actually the very idea behind the open-source business model. Yes, Oracle can bundle that with their stack (and since they bought Sun they actually have everything they need), but the other vendors could do the same. The real culprit here is the JVM - with enough patents, Oracle can club to death any attempt to create an alternative JVM. But in that case, the open-source ecosystem will fall and something else will emerge.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[GooberToo]

Just to make sure I didn't over sell, please keep in mind, while I do know there is a lot of static analysis which currently does take place for the JIT, I have no idea how much of that is exposed as a compilation/diagnostic tool. And my comment above was specifically focused on discussion to empower developer level static analysis. As such, I have no idea if at this point its strictly theoretical.

I completely agree with your Google assessment. Honestly I was amazed Google went the Java route and not the Python. Bet they wished they had now. Though I'm not really surprised. Google suffers badly from Java dysmorphia, in that they wrongly believe its a language programmers really want to use. As such they see Java as a hammer and the world as a nail.

In typical Google fashion, they never really stopped to asked if Java is a language programmers want (its largely not) and if the enterprise factors which pushed Java into many companies need apply (it doesn't). Which, of course, leaves everyone scratching their head with a WTF?!? In fact, most Android developers are displeased with Google's Java+Android position, and were downright pissed when Google had the balls to tell people that only dopes code in C/C++ and worse, a full C++ feature set on Android is for idiots. And of course, that was another case of classic Google dysmorphia. Obviously they did eventually make a reversal, but largely the damage is done. After all, what most programmers want is C/C++, and if they want to support some type of VM+core language, most would prefer something like Python, Ruby, LUA, and so on.

I don't know if you followed Android during the early days, but there were basically two camps. Camp one was those who went to Android specifically because it was Java. Of course, during this time, Android+Java developers were a tiny group. And then there were those who were simply interested in an Apple competitor almost without fail, they all wondered what the hell was wrong with Google and their Java dysmorphia that most people didn't want anything to do with - which was further compounded in that it targeted a byte code VM.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Eponymous Hero]

the verbed form of that noun is subsidize, not subsidy. lawyered.

Re:Java, truley an American icon

[Panaflex]

Yup, I agree with this... I just think that anything out there with a VM language is a patent minefield these days... this includes all the JVM and .NET languages. Thinking that Oracle is any nicer than Microsoft is innocent folly, fraught with the same dangers of "intellectual property" land mines.

Apache and the OSS community would be much better off developing it's own VM languages in the first place and publishing profusely.

Also in the news

[Chrisq]

It seems as if Oracle would like nothing better than to stomp Apache and its open source Java efforts clean out of existence.

Also in the news. It seems that water makes things wet.

Re:Also in the news

[Anonymous Coward]

MySQL, you're next!

Re:Also in the news

[Anonymous Coward]

that worries me more than java frankly. I can lose Java, I wouldn't be happy to lose mysql.

Re:Also in the news

[cpricejones]

The guys at Oracle are finally fed up with the constant stream of Java updates.

Re:Also in the news

[shugah]

MySQL already has several forks, but MariaDB, developed by Monty Widenius is the closest to a drop in replacement.

Re:Also in the news

[Korin43]

PostgreSQL + phpPgAdmin.

As easy to use as MySQL, plus features it claims to have actually work (transactions, foreign keys, etc.).

Re:Also in the news

[DeeEff]

PostgreSQL is also nice because it isn't lazy with the commands and can likewise support spatial systems, as well as integrate into apache a little IIRC (if you use stack builder).

Postgres isn't the king of open source databases for nothing.

Re:Also in the news

[petit_robert]

It also has an outstanding documentation

Oracle damaging the open-source community! GASP!

[GameboyRMH]

They're Oracle, that's their business model, it's what they do. Convert the goodness of open source communities into money, like a software Gargamel.

What's the next article going to be? Facebook eroding society's expectations of privacy? BP moving fossil carbon into the biosphere?

No kidding

[Blymie]

No kidding .. look at what java has done to my dreams!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guGchg4mbLs

Maybe I'm just being an idiot...

[neokushan]

...but why is it Ironic that the Apache foundation were the first to warn the community? From reading the summary, it seems highly appropriate that Apache were the first ones to warn the community, not Ironic at all. Unless, of course, I'm missing something (which I suspect I am).

Re:Maybe I'm just being an idiot...

[Anonymous Coward]

Irony is stated in sentence following "Oh, the irony". "This is the same Apache Foundation that resigned from the Java Community Process executive committee in protest after Oracle repeatedly refused to give it access to the Java Technology Compatibility Kit,' McAllister writes."

Re:Maybe I'm just being an idiot...

[Anrego]

Unless, of course, I'm missing something (which I suspect I am).

Unless I'm missing something also, it's probably the fact that a large majority of the population doesn't actually understand what the the word irony actually means.

Re:Maybe I'm just being an idiot...

[softWare3ngineer]

I thought the same thing after reading the article. It was their modules that were broken in the release so you would expect them to have more specific automated testing for these areas.

Re:Maybe I'm just being an idiot...

[neokushan]

Once again, why does that make it Ironic? Apache had good reason to warn everyone, they got shafted by Oracle. In that instance, it seems highly appropriate that Apache warned the community.

Irony, as defined by http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Irony

an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.

Why would it be unexpected of Apache to warn the community after they resigned from the Java Community Process committee? Surely that's the exact opposite, surely it's expected that Apache would warn the community since they resigned for a reason.

Re:Maybe I'm just being an idiot...

[Anonymous Coward]

If it makes you feel any better, I was wondering the exact same thing..

Re:Maybe I'm just being an idiot...

[PhrstBrn]

Unless I'm missing something also, it's probably the fact that a large majority of the population doesn't actually understand what the the word irony actually means.

You mean, like you?

"Oh, the irony" is an ironic statement. Claiming irony when there is no irony, is an ironic statement.

Re:Maybe I'm just being an idiot...

[Atzanteol]

It's like "goldy" and "silvery" only it's made out of iron.

Re:Maybe I'm just being an idiot...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's still not ironic, it's just wrong.

Re:Maybe I'm just being an idiot...

[SpooForBrains]

Which, when you think about it, is pretty ironic.

Re:Maybe I'm just being an idiot...

[Anonymous Coward]

a large majority of the population doesn't actually understand what the the word irony actually means

Now that's ironic!

Did anyone else notice...

[Anonymous Coward]

Larry Ellison is one rich asshole?

Re:Did anyone else notice...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, there's enough hole there for him being at least 3.

Re:Did anyone else notice...

[Anonymous Coward]

Larry Ellison is one rich asshole?

its:

One
Rich
Asshole
Called
Larry
Ellison

Re:Did anyone else notice...

[dr-suess-fan]

O ne
R ich
A sshole
C alled
L arry
E llison

Re:Did anyone else notice...

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah from the person who posted the same thing 8 minutes before you plagiarist!!

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk

[Anonymous Coward]

You can use LibreOffice without java. It's just missing a couple features, barely noticeable.

Isn't most of Java open source?

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't Sun open source a HUGE chunk of Java just not long before they collapsed and got revived by the devil, Oracle?

Wouldn't it be easier for the community to just tell Oracle to fork off?

Re:Isn't most of Java open source?

[VGPowerlord]

That entirely depends on how well the GPLv2 protects you from their patents.

Oh, and you can't use the name Java because Sun has it trademarked.

Oh, and no clue what'll happen related to trademarks if you continue to use the word "java" in the various namespaces in the language.

Re:Isn't most of Java open source?

[TheRaven64]

That entirely depends on how well the GPLv2 protects you from their patents.

i.e. not at all. GPLv2 (clause 7) means that you lose the right to distribute the code under the GPL if doing so would violate patents, however Oracle / Sun is the copyright owner and so not bound by the license (the GPL is the license that they grant you), so you gain no protection at all.

Spelling or word choice?

[srg33]

Shouldn't it be "Oracle's Java Policies Are Destroying the Community"?

Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Virtucon]

It seem strange that Oracle would push people away from Java, especially since Sun spent a great deal of time getting people to adopt it. Now Microsoft seems to have gone soft on .NET which was that technology to compete with Java. Did Oracle somehow make a backroom deal with Microsoft? As I recall the Sun/Microsoft suit prohibited Microsoft from having their own Java implementation, is Microsoft now going to license Java from Oracle as the .NET replacement? This is all speculation but Oracle hasn't done anything good for the things they received in the Sun acquisition, Solaris, Java and SPARC. I realize that Oracle is a big company that likes lots of revenues but it seems to me that Sun market share was on the decline and now Oracle is just shutting the door on what remaining customers they had.

   

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[characterZer0]

Java would not be a suitable replacement for .NET. The purpose of .NET is to keep people on Windows, not give them a migration path away from it.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Anrego]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if oracle bought sun just for their IP .. so the could sue the shit outa google.

Java and soon MySQL are just collateral damage.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[drolli]

As I recall the Sun/Microsoft suit prohibited Microsoft from having their own Java implementation,

Wrong. It prohibited them from having an incompatible implementation and calling it java, very similar the current case of oracle vs. google.

in the process against ms it was about the name. in the process against google its about the patents. However the core of both is: work for the platform and fall under special regulations for the platform or not.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Richard_at_work]

Its amazing how far a single article of FUD goes these days - Microsoft is not "going soft" on .Net, they just weren't willing to discuss it during a talk about something else entirely, while in Windows 8, .Net is still there and stronger than ever.

As I recall the Sun/Microsoft suit prohibited Microsoft from having their own Java implementation, is Microsoft now going to license Java from Oracle as the .NET replacement

Microsoft already have a licensing deal with Sun/Oracle in place for .Net - it was pursued years ago, at the very birth of .Net. And besides, what would Microsoft gain from going to Java? Functionality wise, .Net is better featured so what would Microsoft gain from switching ecosystems? Not a whole lot.

Microsoft don't want Java, they already made their version of it and are quite happy with it.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Richard_at_work]

Given how well the "write once run anywhere" marketing aspect of Java has basically failed, its no more a migration path than .Net is these days.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Svartalf]

Actually, they've done pretty good with one and only ONE item they got... VirtualBox. I'm kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop on that one as well, thought.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[medv4380]

Now now, if java is used to replace .net we all know that MS will put back in all the Direct X api's and stuff that got them in trouble with Sun in the first place, and that would keep Java developers and users on Windows.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Svartalf]

For Microsoft it wouldn't be. For Oracle, it would. :-D

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Svartalf]

It's not really analogous for the Java/Android story... If you wanted to reach for an analogy, it'd be Oracle suing Microsoft over .Net.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oracle is running full page ads for sparc machines on back of economist. I think they are using sparc and solaris that way. And oracle itself was a big java shop (E-business suite)

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[wasabii]

I really wish I knew what you meant by "go soft on .Net". It's the premier development platform for the most widely distributed desktop and server OS on the planet. And their new phones use it.

Yeah. I don't know what you mean.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[0123456]

Given how well the "write once run anywhere" marketing aspect of Java has basically failed, its no more a migration path than .Net is these days.

What things won't Java run on? We routinely run the same Java code on Windows and Linux.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[fyndor]

Java would not be a suitable replacement for .NET. The purpose of .NET is to keep people on Windows, not give them a migration path away from it.

This statement makes no sense given the fact that by the very nature of the .Net, it is cross-platform capable. There seems to be only a small portion of the framework that the Mono crew couldn't move to their platform. Microsoft hasn't done the best job to spread it to other OSes, but if it was meant to keep people on Windows then it was really a poor business decision to make a VM style language framework. .

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[tlhIngan]

It's not really analogous for the Java/Android story... If you wanted to reach for an analogy, it'd be Oracle suing Microsoft over .Net.

Except Microsoft licensed Java VM patents for .Net. Oracle can't sue Microsoft for infringement because they've already got a licensing agreement in place.

So the situation's the same, just the Microsoft-Sun (now Oracle) deal would've been the path had Google licensed the patents as well. One licensed the stuff, the other didn't.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought they called it J++ and if you are not using Java in the first place why worry about any incompatibilities?

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[characterZer0]

And MacOS, AS/400, z/OS.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Anonymous Coward]

Has anyone managed to get Java running on Java yet?

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Virtucon]

I was referring to this: Slashdot

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm puzzled by this statement.
How did it fail ? In what way ?

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Atzanteol]

What? Really? Is it *still* 1996?

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Richard_at_work]

Java runs on lots of things, but thats not my point. Will every Java application run on all JVMs? No.

Take Azureus for example - built in Java, but separate downloads for OSX and Windows. And thats all too common in the Java world...

Java is only a migration path away from Windows if all your applications run seamlessly on the other platforms, and that only happens if you are actually careful during development.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft don't want Java, they already made their version of it and are quite happy with it.

Paid to think that? Microsoft is not the end user. People who buy applications are.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[phantomfive]

Apache Foundation has strong ties with IBM. Oracle has interests that are quite different, even opposite of IBM. Thus it isn't really surprising that Oracle does things that annoy the Apache Foundation. That's my take on it.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Anonymous Coward]

... MySQL are just collateral damage.

You say this like it's a bad thing.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[hubie]

It's the premier development platform for the most widely distributed desktop and server OS on the planet.

I thought Linux had at least half, and maybe even as high as 2/3, the server market as compared to all other operating systems.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[doublebackslash]

Which features of Java as a language or Java programs do you commonly see failing to work across different platforms?

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[zlogic]

SPARC is the only thing Oracle is protecting. All those " sucks, move to a much faster Oracle SPARC server" ads, the early retirement of Oracle for Itanium. And they're actively spreading the message that their SPARC box is optimized for Oracle, so it's worth more.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Teckla]

Take Azureus for example - built in Java, but separate downloads for OSX and Windows.

That's because Azureus isn't 100% Pure Java. They decided to use SWT instead of Swing for the UI. SWT uses a lot of "native code". Of course you end up needing separate installers.

The software company I work for targets Linux, Windows, AS/400, HP-UX, Solaris, and AIX. In our non-trivial experience, Java is shockingly and impressively portable.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[VGPowerlord]

Java runs on lots of things, but thats not my point. Will every Java application run on all JVMs? No.

Take Azureus for example - built in Java, but separate downloads for OSX and Windows. And thats all too common in the Java world...

That's because Azureus/Vuze uses SWT, a GUI library developed by IBM that isn't shipped with Java. Because it interfaces with the OS's GUI drawing toolkit, it has a separate version for each OS.

They could have a common download, plus let you download SWT separately, but at a guess they don't (azureus.sourceforge.net is blocked where I work so I can't check).

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[TheLink]

Early this year I "upgraded" from Sun VirtualBox to Oracle VitualBox, and stuff started to not work. In the end I had to uninstall and go back to the previous version.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[MikeBabcock]

What Java doesn't have is a good external installer for native libraries. That's the only reason for multi-platform installers. Even 3D games like http://wurmonline.com/ don't have multiple platform installation options; they run through Webstart and install automatically.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep your Java. I don't know a single .Net developer that would want to make that trade.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Idaho]

Its amazing how far a single article of FUD goes these days - Microsoft is not "going soft" on .Net, they just weren't willing to discuss it during a talk about something else entirely, while in Windows 8, .Net is still there and stronger than ever.

"Stronger than ever" how?

Rather, it's amazing that .NET made it this far, while Microsoft itself (apart from its development division) hasn't used it for basically anything (that was released, anyway), also clearly won't in the future, and it's clear that the Windows group upper management hates it.

That's not FUD, that's just facing facts.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[UnknowingFool]

I would say the incompatibilities deal more with versions of Java than the platforms directly. For instance on OS X, most of the time it isn't using the newest version but careful development will mostly handle that.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now Microsoft seems to have gone soft on .NET which was that technology to compete with Java. Did Oracle somehow make a backroom deal with Microsoft?

 

I'd like to see some evidence to support your claim "Microsoft has gone soft on .Net." That's news to me.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Anrego]

MySQL can die .. I don't hate it.. but I use postgres and really switching from one database to another is in most cases not entirely painful on the software side.

Java however .. there is such an investment in code and knowledge that just "moving to c++" is far from trivial.

I'm also not looking forward to the death of virtualbox.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oracle, a deal with microsoft?
1 - Is Larry Ellison still the CEO of Oracle?
2 - Have they finally found a medication that will turn a foaming at the mouth raving lunatic CEOs into rational and astute executives?

If the answer to both of the above are yes, then it could be, otherwise just chalk it up to Larry Ellison doing what he does best... err... doing what he loves.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Virtucon]

I don't think that plays out anymore with Nehalem and Sandy Bridge. Itanium was a dead architecture the minute AMD launched its x86-64 initiative which forced Intel to go along for the ride.

As I read it from Oracle's SPARC road map (that still sounds funny) through 2015 they will be focusing on the T3 architecture, 16 Cores/128 threads per core which follows right along with the SPARC architecture over the past few years. The speed though is still less than 2GHz/sec, 1.65 actually, which when SUN was still in charge was a target. Essentially not much more clock speed but more threads via more cores on a socket. I won't get into a "which is better" but SPARC has been languishing and with Oracle pushing aside support for OpenSolaris and pushing support for Solaris X86, it just starts to get confusing as to what their plans are for the hardware and O/S side of the business. They also have Oracle Linux (Repackaged RHEL) which further clouds things up.

Right now however I'm getting on the x86-64 architecture because it's the volume of shipped systems that's a key player here. Back when Power7 was launched by IBM, there was this article and it is true, UNIX is dying. Linux is growing and so is Windows Server in the Data Center.

CRN Article

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Virtucon]

AFAIK Apache has (or had) strong ties with lots of the industry players. IBM does re-brand Apache technology and uses it in WebSphere for example but what Apache builds they allow others to use. That might erode Ellison's paycheck a bit so it's understandable that they wouldn't be the best of friends.

This all smells of the days of the OSF

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly - that's why they're doing everything possible to stop Mono, a project allowing .Net to run on other OSs. Of course, that's sarcasm - they've been a tremendous help to the Mono team. That soft hissing sound is the air escaping from your now-deflated theory.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Anonymous Coward]

.NET to compete with Java? For that to work they'd need to actively support cross-platform environments (like Mono for example) as well. I don't see that happening to be honest.

As to MS going soft.. I'd say they're diving head first into taking .NET into totally new directions. Take for example Windows powershell. A ".NET powered" commandline environment which IMO provides a very good Windows alternative for "Unix-like systems administration". For regular admin tasks its ideal. And if you want to you can even extend on it using MS' freely available Studio Express development environments.

I wouldn't call that "going soft" at all.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[TheRaven64]

One of the big difference between .NET and Java is that it's much easier to call into native code from .NET. This is what makes it non-portable. People using .NET rarely write an entire application in .NET, they write it in a mix of .NET and P/Invokes to the native APIs. This means that porting .NET code that was not written with non-Windows operating systems in mind usually requires WINE and Mono, rather than just Mono.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[CadentOrange]

You're correct that .NET has not made a dent in the shrink wrapped software market. However, by that metric you could also say that was true of Python, Java, any language that is not C or C++. Where .NET has made a huge impact is in server side development (e.g. ASP.NET) and products for the "enterprise". Additionally, .NET has been seeing an upward trend, see http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/paperinfo/tpci/C_.html and is the 5th most popular programming language on the TIOBE index so .NET is not going away any time soon.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[shutdown -p now]

There are third-party alternatives to P/Invoke in Java land - e.g. J/Invoke. The problem then is that Java type system is sometimes not descriptive enough (e.g. no unsigned types, no unmanaged pointers, no fixed-size arrays), so you still have to jump through a few more hoops. But you don't have to deal with JNI directly.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[shutdown -p now]

Visual J++ was the IDE. The VM itself was called MS JVM (i.e. Microsoft Java Virtual Machine).

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[doctormetal]

This does not seem so strange. It is getting more clear that Oracle just wanted to eliminate the competition. They do not seem to want the assets they aquired from Sun (except for patent s). They just wanted them out of business.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Chibi Merrow]

Hi.

Spoken as someone who doesn't use a single Microsoft product to feed my family, C# is better than Java. It just is. ESPECIALLY if you're doing web/enterprise work. Them's the breaks. Java was bad when Sun was running the show, and they were just incompetent. Oracle is incompetent AND evil, and in charge of a fundamentally flawed language. Not a winning combinarion.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[jalefkowit]

It seem strange that Oracle would push people away from Java, especially since Sun spent a great deal of time getting people to adopt it.

No it doesn't. Java is distributed for free. Oracle doesn't do free. Oracle doesn't do anything that doesn't make them money.

This may seem wrongheaded, but it's worth remembering that Oracle is still in business and Sun is not.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Miamicanes]

> and really switching from one database to another is in most cases
> not entirely painful on the software side.

Um, I can assure you that porting an application that uses queries that were highly-optimized for MySQL performance is very, very, very painful. The streets of Silicon Valley are littered with the corpses of web-based startups that grew explosively, tried moving from MySQL to Oracle, and died along the way.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Billly Gates]

Rumor had it, that Microsoft stole several million lines of code from Java to make .NET.

J# was microsoft's version of Java and .NET was made for the Java platform as an alternative to Swing and the JFC. Needless to say Sun did not like this and tried to sue. Microsoft ended up settling with an agreement that they couldn't call it Java and that development on J# would cease in addition to Sun getting some cash for each version of visual studio sold. Microsoft decided that they should have their own Java like language instead, and hired the guy who wrote Borlands' Turbo Pascal and Delphi to design the language.

Microsoft is happy with C# and .NET and does not want to change. If anything I am sure they are opening champaign bottles and laughing at Oracle right now. After all, many new customers may come out of this deal and it will help kill Linux too. Sadly, I am thinking of going back to school and I am now interested in .NET and C# with Windows, rather than taking courses in Java. Microsoft may just as well be evil, but if I am going to open a .com company there is a good bet Java is dying and going the way of the IBM mainframe and as/400 and Cobol. It wont die but you sure as hell do not want to start with these platforms. MVC and other things make Microsoft fresh.

I wish IBM would have bought Sun or Borland (they make development software still?). Java 7 is turning into Java Vista.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Billly Gates]

Are you kidding me?

I can write a Java servlet and host it on a debian server. If I get more hits and need something more I can move the program to an Oracle or HP 64 CPU system. If it becomes the top 50th site in the world I can move the files to an IBM mainframe. Try that with .NET?

Unless you are doing something retarded using the RMI or checking for file versions (Intranet apps) they will run out of the box. If not you can modify it very very easily. I personally think some vendors did the "=" instead of ">=" so they can double dip and charge extra for the same apps. .NET ... ok how well will your 2002 era .Net 1.1 era app run on Windows Server 2012? What if you want to add NiHibernate compiled with .NET 3.5 with it? .NET is incompatible with itself and not just other platforms. Yes, you could port it but Java has it beat in that regards.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[CSHARP123]

Why not. SharePoint uses .net as its platform. It generated well over a billion $ in revenue in 2008-2009 and still growing. So what if MS did not use it for OS extensions. It is used where it makes lots of sense.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[farble1670]

It seem strange that Oracle would push people away from Java, especially since Sun spent a great deal of time getting people to adopt it.

i think it's far from that complicated. oracle doesn't care if any particular technology lives or dies. they care if they can make money from it. oracle will do all it can to monetize java. that includes but it not limited to spending less on engineers to maintain it resulting in buggy releases. it also includes building a business around professional services for java deployments, and only fixing bugs that licensed, paying customers care about.

and finally, the real goldmine is JVM-based patent lawsuits. whether java is a quality product, or if anyone is even using java, is irrelevant to that.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[bzipitidoo]

What things won't Java run on?

Anything with less than 4G of RAM? Ok, Java isn't that bad, but it's still a pig.

Java has its own little universe of library hell. I suppose that's one of the things that I find the most disappointing about the current state of the art of programming. Libraries are nowhere close to being language independent. We have tons of wrappers and other hacks to interface with the legacy C way of handling libraries. Mostly, they can't be generated, somebody has to create these wrappers. Which provides another place to make mistakes. And to fall behind. There are always libraries that haven't been worked on. Things like SWIG seem to be horribly bloated kludges. Then we have things like Java in which language designers poured an incredible amount of resources into, essentially, library duplication. More bloat. Despite the noise over Java's unprecedented new levels of portability when it was new, they repeated the mistake of not making those libraries language independent. It's as if they didn't want to. Or perhaps OOP confused them, and they thought they were building an ecosystem any OOP language could use. No real way to use a Java library without firing up a big, slow Java interpreter. Still lots of Java that isn't compileable. So much for code reuse.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[fyndor]

I don't think this is a true statement. People rarely are able to write .Net application without P/Invoke? I wasn't talking about people that write applications then decide they want to make it cross platform. I am talking about people that use mono from the start so they stick within the available framework. What portions of .Net are you talking about that would require P/Invoke under windows?

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you on crack or just clueless?

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Richard_at_work]

Lets see just how much of your post is FUD..

Dynamics CRM is .Net based.

SharePoint 2007 onward is .Net based.

SQL Server 2005 onward has large amounts of .Net components.

Reporting Services is .Net based.

Azure loves .Net code.

BizTalk is largely .Net based.

Exchange 2007 onward has a lot of .Net components.

The System Center group of products all require .Net.

Thats just a quick list of things that Microsoft have released that are .Net based. Your credibility just went south for the winter.

Re:Java and .NET falling by the wayside?

[Xest]

""Stronger than ever" how?"

Because it takes centre stage, and with Microsoft making Windows 8 support ARM, means it's the environment of choice for developing Windows apps because it means they'll just work between x64 PCs, ARM tablets, and whatever else you stick Windows on.

The C# language itself is rapidly improving too, C#2 bought forward things like generics, and better delegate syntax. C#3 brought forward LINQ, and Lambda expressions amongst other things, and now C#4 brings us dynamic types again, amongst other things. The language is coming along in leaps and bounds, evolving far more effectively than Java is managing right now.

"Rather, it's amazing that .NET made it this far, while Microsoft itself (apart from its development division) hasn't used it for basically anything (that was released, anyway)"

You mean apart from Dynamics, Sharepoint, parts of Visual Studio, Office, SQL Server, and building Windows Phone 7 almost entirely around it? That's an odd definition of not used for "basically anything". With .NET being their strategy to avoid platform dependence on Windows 8, and being used to enable development on the 360, and being at the core of Windows Phone, whilst also heavily improving things like ASP.NET MVC you've got a really dire understanding of Microsoft's future with it.

To then jump from your complete understanding of Microsoft's roadmap, to suggesting the Windows group upper management hates it is an impressive feat of retardedness. So well done with that.

The facts your facing, aren't facts in the world the rest of us live in, only in your little world of ignorance.

This isn't a news article.

[Short Circuit]

Really, who didn't see this coming?

This isn't a news article. This is an article about two previous news articles. There's nothing to see coming. Submitted by the author of an article about the two previous stories. Slow news day, I hope; this is just a group-think trajectory thing.

Sounds more like a witchhunt

[C_Kode]

I'm not Oracle fan (actually, I'm a hater), but this seems more like a witch hunt. I mean, the title "Oracle's Java Polices Are Destroying the Community", sounds a little harsh considering you only said that Oracle released a buggy version of Java and they were not the first to report it. ...not that I'm against an Oracle witch hunt. ;)

Re:Sounds more like a witchhunt

[leenks]

Except this isn't the first negative act against Java by Oracle, or against OSS in general. They've seriously fragmented the MySQL market (though arguably this isn't a bad thing), ruined OpenOffice, and destroyed Solaris. They don't exactly have a good track record with the open source community, but had the audacity to claim they were going to foster a community of participation and transparency, which they haven't lived up to - especially if you look at the debacle around Apache Harmony and the JCK licencing (in effect, you can't have an open source Java implementation since the certification kit isn't available to them). Not only that, but major Java developers couldn't get out of Sun (and then Oracle) fast enough once the acquisition was on its way.

Although everyone expects bugs in a point zero release, Oracle were made fully aware of the bugs and their implications before the product shipped, and had plenty of time to delay. Hell, Java7 is years late anyway, its not like another two weeks would have made much of a difference. This release is just another screw up by a company that couldn't give a crap about its customers, let alone those that aren't actually buying products from them.

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk

[Anrego]

Slashdot loves to rake on java.. but I always liked it. I don't work with it much any more, but I have fond memories.

Specifically I liked developing with it. Using it is an entirely different matter.. swing based UIs are still generally terrible. From the code side it was nice.

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk

[pavon]

And LibreOffice is working on reimplementing many of those features without Java.

Some of Oracle is working with Apache

[Sits]

Other parts of Oracle are donating Openoffice to Apache...

Re:Some of Oracle is working with Apache

[Anonymous Coward]

Nonono... they just don't want to mess with that project (OpenOffice) since they can not make money and it has already been forked (LibreOffice, because they didn't do sh*t about it). So if they can not make money, destroy it, but if it will lead to negative PR (Like destroying OpenOffice will lead to many companies to question/abandon Oracle's other products) pretend to donate it to the community for good PR. All in all, since the acquisition of Sun, I am avoiding Oracle's products like the plague (or as much as I can - no Java, no OpenOffice, and I am not using VM much - maybe once every 3 months)...

Former Sun Employees; Condolences

[Anonymous Coward]

It must be a terrible feeling to watch someone kill your baby.

Re:Former Sun Employees; Condolences

[HarrySquatter]

And yet nothing of value will be lost.

Re:Oracle damaging the open-source community! GASP

[DaleGlass]

Except the post is wrong, the article isn't about Oracle damaging the OSS community, it's about them damaging Java.

Releasing a JVM with a serious bug doesn't damage the OSS community. In fact it's an excellent way to give it more influence. Issues like these provide plenty incentive to fork.

The worst case for Oracle would be it goes the way it happened with XFree86: every distribution ships the Apache version, and everybody stops caring about the original project's existence.

Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

irony1 [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-]
noun, plural -nies.

1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.

2. Literature .
a. a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated.
b. (especially in contemporary writing) a manner of organizing a work so as to give full expression to contradictory or complementary impulses, attitudes, etc., especially as a means of indicating detachment from a subject, theme, or emotion.

3. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.

Re:Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh, you missed the irony.

Example 1: Jane says, "The toilet is overflowing!" Dick says, "Excellent. Wonderful. Great." Dick is using irony.

Example 2: Jane says, "The sun has set, as predicted." Dick says, "Oh, the irony." Dick is using irony.

In other words it is irony to claim irony when there is none.

Re:Irony

[lowlymarine]

3. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.

How does that not fit in this case? Did you even read the next line in the summary?

Re:Irony

[digitig]

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, also: "the incongruity created when the (tragic) significance of a character's speech or actions is revealed to the audience but unknown to the character concerned; the literary device so used, orig. in Greek tragedy; also transf."

We (the audience) saw this coming, but Oracle don't seem to have. So that's irony in this, one of the earliest senses.

Re:Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes -- it says they bailed after Oracle screwed them over. Then they run around warning people that Oracle enjoys screwing people over. How ironic!

(Note: when I say "how ironic" about this, I'm being ironic by definition 1.)

non issue again.

[bobaferret]

Most production work will remain at java 6 for a while, until everyone makes their versions of java 7 available, Apple and IBM in particular. RHEL doesn't ship with the openjdk-1.7.0 yet. It's just not available in enough places to be worth developing against yet. Oracle knows that Apache is one of the major reasons that java is a popular as it is. They did give the Apache foundation, all of OpenOffice you know. Some idiot made a bad call and told management, that the error was just a corner case, and management said were not going to miss our deadline for a corner case. Oracle knows that the enterprise market will buy Oracle and Oracle services. It's not worried about software that's not in its market space.

Re:non issue again.

[Atzanteol]

How I wish Oracle would just turn Java over to the Apache Foundation... The Apache folks are 90% of the reason Java is as successful as it is. It's not like Oracle is really going to be able to monetize it at this point anyway.

Re:non issue again.

[bobaferret]

They're sure trying in the mobile space though. :)

Re:non issue again.

[Billly Gates]

I will never leave Java 6.

I do not agree with the EULA for Java 7. I will go to .NET, before I go to Java 7

Re:non issue again.

[Billly Gates]

"It's not like Oracle is really going to be able to monetize it at this point anyway."

They have. They own Apache's code via patents. I find it bizaare that you can run someone else's compiler and libraries and be sued by a third person for using their property. Wouldn't it be bizaare if someone used your code and I came in and collected royalties on it? But that is exactly what is going on and Oracle is using Apache as a bait and switch to sue people. They donated Openoffice to them too and I smell a rat.

Java sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

Good riddance.

Re:Oracle damaging the open-source community! GASP

[webheaded]

It's amazing they took something that was so championed by the open source community and are now driving it into the ground. Do they honestly think people are going to give a shit anymore if they keep trying to screw the community? They're either going to fork it or they're going to move on to something completely different and then Oracle can go fuck themselves. Either way, they really need to learn how to place nice. It's getting ridiculous now.

Where To?

[DocDyson]

I am a long-time Windows/.NET developer, but have reached a point where I want to become part of the much stronger, more vibrant open-source community that has developed around Linux, Java, Apache, MySQL, etc. Just as I started making this transition, Oracle's acquisition of two of the key pieces of this ecosystem (Java and MySQL) seems to be disrupting this (comparative) paradise. What's the consensus of the hive-mind on the future? Can the Linux vendors, the Apache Foundation, and their alies sustain the Java ecosystem without/in spite of Oracle? If not, where do we go from here? Dust off our old C++ skills? Adopt Google Go, Haskell, or some other next-generation language and re-build the ecosystem around it? Or are we collectively doomed to fragmentation again?

Re:Where To?

[sourcerror]

OpenJDK is alive and well and it's GPLv2. IBM has a JVM as well. Java7 might be buggy, but Vista was too when it came out. People will stick with Java6 for the next two years I guess.

I can't possible anything that can destroy OpenJDK as it's compatible with the Java spec, thus being freely granted all the needed patents. Microsoft paid a license to create an incompatible "Java" (C#,.Net), and it also paid licensing. Google created an incompatible Java as well, so I guess they have to pay as well. However all this doesn't concern regular Java developers.

Real Free Software propenents always sticked to C/C++ however.

Re:Where To?

[DCFusor]

Still writing new apps in ...perl...Gtk....and C (mostly for embedded where C++ is too bulky).

Re:Where To?

[shutdown -p now]

First of all, you should take the rumors of .NET demise with a grain of salt. Even more so this goes for Java - last I checked, Oracle is pretty enthusiastic about their ability to get $$$ from the stack, so it would be surprising if they ditch it anytime soon.

Regardless of the above, learning C++ is a good idea. Even if you stick to .NET or Java development, in large projects there are always bits and pieces which need to be written in C++, or at least require a good understanding of how it works - either for perf reasons, or because you need to call into a native library (because there's no pure managed version that does what you want, and no good existing wrapper). Also, Java/C# developers who know C++ tend to understand the inner workings better, and be more performance-conscious when writing code (because they actually know roughly how much things cost!).

As well, keep in mind that most desktop software for all major platforms is still written in C or C++ (and recently also - with Apple's rise - in Obj-C; but C is a complete subset of that, so you need to learn it anyway), so there are - and will be - many jobs there regardless of how well managed languages fare.

Re:Where To?

[Anonymous Coward]

(This is not a MySQL flame! I am not some purist here to bitch about transactions. Now, that said...)

Why does anyone really care about MySQL? Would the world really miss it? Sure, I get that it can do certain jobs quite adequately. I use MySQL myself. But can it really do anything you can't do just as well with, say, PostgresQL?

It's not really hard to write stuff to be pretty much completely database-agnostic. Shit, I maintain a lot of code that uses MySQL and while that code isn't database-agnostic, if my boss told me we were migrating to something else, I'd hardly have a cow.

And for that very reason, MySQL isn't worth killing. Doing so wouldn't really hurt anyone so they've no incentive to use the threat of that as a weapon. It's not going to happen.

And even they it did (!!) it's already forked.

Worry about Java if you want. Maybe worry about database-related patents. But don't worry about MySQL.

Re:Where To?

[Daniel Phillips]

I guess that after a lot of tension there will be a big group hug. In the mean time, dust off your c++ skills, which are hardly obsolete. After all, c++ produces applications that start faster and run faster and smoother than Java, on the whole.

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk

[lowlymarine]

You forgot "two-thirds of the world's smartphones." Android and BlackBerry OS are both heavily dependent on Java.

Like I said

[twoears]

Larry Ellison is becoming more of a software terrorist every day.

When you find out, let me know.

[Benanov]

When you find out, let me know too. I think we're riding the same ship.

Re:When you find out, let me know.

[Stevecrox]

Going my recent job hunting and current job C# is what people are moving too.

Alternatives?

[softWare3ngineer]

I've been looking for an alternative to Java for some time. Java was appealing because of it cross-platform compatibility, and relatively easy to use GUI classes. Anyone have any suggestions?

Re:Alternatives?

[Jamu]

The LLVM project and OpenCL look interesting. I've never understood why a virtual machine is, in any way, better than an intermediate language that can be compiled to native code for a particular platform. An interpreted language may make sense for dynamically created code. Even so, why not just compile it first? You can run interpreted code in a sandbox, but any IM compiler could add the same features to native code.

Re:Alternatives?

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm, because then you end up with vendor lock-in? That's what created the MS monopoly all those years ago.

Nowadays it's patents instead of black-box native libs that proprietary vendors use to protect their cash cows.

Re:Alternatives?

[ifrag]

I thought that on x86 at least, most Java is JIT compiled to high performance native.

Just-in-time compilation

HotSpot

Re:Alternatives?

[doublebackslash]

I'm not a Microsoft user or programmer, but I've worked with both. C# is very very nearly Java at first blush and if you are comfortable in Java you will be comfortable in C#. Go with mono and you've got your cross platform. There aren't as many libraries as there ae for Java, but it seems that the core is a bit stronger.

Your Mileage May Vary and I've not even seen C# doing GUI work, but it has to be better than swing in both ease of use and looks.

Re:Alternatives?

[sycorob]

I've never understood why a virtual machine is, in any way, better than an intermediate language that can be compiled to native code for a particular platform.

Garbage collection. GC makes people angry for some reason, but I'm personally happy not having to malloc memory all the time. Also hardware and OS independence. It's nice to just open a file and read and write from it, and not really care what the OS is, or what filesystem it's using, and so forth. Same with inputs and outputs, memory management, thread handling, etc. You could add all of these things to your hypothetical intermediate language, but in the end you'd just be recreating the JVM.

A fair number of languages besides Java run on the JVM. Others have been "ported" onto the JVM. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_JVM_languages

I think the JVM is here to stay. We're moving more and more towards high-level, interpreted languages. Hardware is fast enough, and with things like JIT there's no real performance loss anyway. Why not write on a JVM, which does so much for you?

Re:Alternatives?

[shutdown -p now]

Your Mileage May Vary and I've not even seen C# doing GUI work, but it has to be better than swing in both ease of use and looks.

There is a catch there.

WPF is miles ahead of Swing in terms of both power and ease of development (it has declarative markup for UI with data bindings - think QML, but XML-based, with C#/VB for backing code). But it is not supported in Mono, and there are no plans to implement it.

There's WinForms, but it's fairly limited. For starters, it is very Windows-centric, and the Mono port actually implements it from scratch (i.e. not on top of Gtk, Qt or any other widget framework), so it looks like Windows even when you run the app in OS X or Linux. In terms of features, it's roughly where Delphi's VCL was at - mostly absolute layouts (dynamic layouts are technically available but hard to use), primitive data binding, little to no widget extensibility. I wouldn't consider it a serious choice for cross-platform development.

Then there's Gtk#. This, obviously, has native look on Linux/Gnome, and solid support in MonoDevelop. It is also somewhat more sane than WinForms in that it has proper dynamic layouts, and generally more powerful widgets. But it looks pretty crappy in Winows (even with "native" Gtk theme), and even more so in OS X. Worst of all, it has no designer support outside of MonoDevelop.

Usual Oracle bashing

[Anonymous Coward]

It is very easy to bash Oracle for all that. Yes, they should probably delay the release. Yes, they should not make that bug in first place. Said that,
- would the bug not happen if Apache foundation got the TCK for Harmony ?
- would this jvm implementation bug not happen if Apache stayed in JCP and contribute to JDK _specification_ ?
- all the talk about 'trivial' bug - Hotspot is way more complicated code that anything Apache has produced. Harmony/core lib is a lot of work, code-wise, but complexity is a lot smaller. Hotspot is probably one of the most complicated open source projects out there. Most bugs are trivial after you find them out - but please, do not underestimate the complexity of state-of-art jvm implementation. And, to be honest, I don't think that Neil really understand the details of the bug, except that is has something to do with loop optimalization. This is way beyond normal 'forgotten to zero-delimit string' type of things.
- how releasing jvm with that bug is affecting the 'community' ? it does reduce the Oracle credibility in eyes of big commercial players (big companies will be now a lot more wary with adopting java 7), but community?
- regarding 'openess' of java. Yes, it is not perfect. But please compare it with .NET. All the people shouting how open C#/.NET was because of ECMA standarization. Now, we are around C# 4.0, how much of that is in control of ECMA or open bodies? Can I browse MS CLR implementation? Can I fork my own implementation of it for research purposes? Please take things into perspective. Oracle is not Richard Stallman, but it is still light years ahead of MS as far as VM platform openess is concerned.
I find it unfair that java/Oracle gets so much bashing for not being open, while .NET/C#/MS is ok. And java implementation from Oracle is about as open as it can be - even if control over specification is tighter than Apache crowd would like.

Re:Usual Oracle bashing

[Cederic]

Usual Oracle bashing?

How about.. buying BEA and fucking over the best app server on the market.
How about.. buying Sun and fucking over Java and OpenOffice
How about.. buying 18 different companies leaving themselves fragmented to hell with internally competing software products that don't interoperate making it impossible to choose what to actually buy from them, leaving you forced to give your money to IBM who aren't a whole lot better but at least have competent salespeople

Trust me, Oracle deserve a hell of a lot of bashing.

Major f*ckup, Oracle

[PPH]

A couple of factors motivating users to seek open solutions are: The proprietary vendor screws a product up and then doesn't fix it[1]. The vendor starts withholding necessary documentation or other support from the software community[2]. When will my product become competition for the vendor and I too will get buggered?

I can't think of a faster way for developers to jump ship to an open version of Java. And perhaps begin to fear other Oracle products as well.

[1] Heck, enough screw-ups and I'll start looking for a competent alternative. Never mind timely patches.

[2] Its called 'cutting off their air supply' and was made famous by a little outfit in Redmond.

Re:Major f*ckup, Oracle

[Anonymous Coward]

Scala is an excellent alternative going forward from Java. Although rooted in the JVM, there is a .NET version in the works, and it could easily be back-ended to another virtual machine.

Re:Oracle damaging the open-source community! GASP

[Anonymous Coward]

Wiki sez: In the fictional world of the Smurfs, Gargamel the sorcerer is the sworn enemy of the Smurfs and the principal antagonist in the show and comic books.

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk

[DrXym]

Java is fine to develop with but it hasn't kept up with either .NET, nor developments which demand a more modern language. It doesn't support domain specific languages, it's got half baked solutions for generics and other language extensions too fearful to embed stuff in class files. Java 7 is massively overdue and gimped.

Biggest issue for the amount of boiler plate crap. Things like anonymous classes where proper closures would make the code a lot cleaner. Eclipse takes care of a lot of refactoring and cleanup but it's still dealing with a lot of bloat. Other issues would be the heavy reliance on XML for control & configuration of apps. Often times you'll spend more time worrying about configuration than code.

In summary I like Java but it's not improving fast enough.

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk

[TigerTime]

There are many, many, many web application written on Weblogic, Tomcat, and JBoss webservers. They're all Java webapps. Not to mention Eclipse is written in Java as well. I don't think you have a clue as to what all is out there.

OpenOffice...

[patlabor]

... was given to the Apache Community. Does that seem like action by Oracle to "stomp Apache and its open source Java efforts clean out of existence"? If anything it makes the Apache Community stronger. Java is definitely one of Oracle's most important acquisitions from Sun, which is why they are currently in court against Google. Programming mistakes happen all the time. Granted, some optimization flags were enabled that shouldn't have been, but that doesn't make Oracle intentionally malicious in this case.

Accidents happen, get over it.

I'm tired of these flamebait articles. What has happened to factual news reporting?

Re:OpenOffice...

[Anonymous Coward]

... was given to the Apache Community. Does that seem like action by Oracle to "stomp Apache and its open source Java efforts clean out of existence"? If anything it makes the Apache Community stronger.

They basically dumped a dead corpse into the Apache community's hands with that one. Fairly irrelevant. Everyone had already jumped ship to LibreOffice.

I'm tired of these flamebait articles. What has happened to factual news reporting?

You must have momentarily forgotten where you were.

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk

[Anonymous Coward]

Android and BlackBerry OS are both heavily dependent on Java.

<flailing slashtard
But Android isn't Java!! It's Dalvik!
</flailing slashtard

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk

[Anonymous Coward]

i know.. i got a clue.. dont worry.. we had tomcat servers in 2001... before that we used mod_jk in apache... but apache preferred to dedicate a whole new server to java because it always was too slow and the apache team didn't want clueless people connect apache and slowness.. so they used tomcat instead of allowing java to work with apache through a module...

the module worked great btw.. java just made the apache experience painful... in a java way..

Thank You Oracle

[Lord of the Fries]

Never had to interact with Oracle much, that they're not well regarded is obvious, but if is the one thing they end up doing, then I will thank them and love them for it, in a perverse way. This overheard at OOPSLA during lunch many years ago:

Some Random Guy: "So James, really, what do you think the odds of Java really working are?"

James Gosling: "Of course it'll work, there's not a damn new thing in it!"

Or put better by Jan Steinman: "Java. All the elegance of C++ with all the speed of Smalltalk."

Rant aside, sadly, from what I hear, there's enough Java love fest going on at Google to keep things going for quite a while.

Re:Thank You Oracle

[Atzanteol]

Careful with those jokes, they're antiques!

Re:Thank You Oracle

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets see what they'll end up doing with Go. After all, how big are the largest Android applications so far? Let the servers run Java and avoid license and patent mess on mobile platforms and amazingly enough, netbooks with Go. The name of the language is already fitting the task.

Re:Thank You Oracle

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately almost all CS students coming out of universities all over the world know how to program Java on Eclipse. And that's all they know how to program; other languages simply don't exist in their minds.

Re:Thank You Oracle

[Anonymous Coward]

C++

what are you? Like 60?

Re:Thank You Oracle

[kermidge]

"All the elegance of C++...."

Thank you, first good laugh all day. And my keyboard thanks me, that I'd already swallowed my coffee before reading that far.

Re:Thank You Oracle

[twoHats]

As one who was also at OOPSLA many years ago (the first one and the second as well) - What I heard was the Microsoft VP in the Mens room saying "why do you all hate us so much ...?" As one who also worked in and taught both languages (C++ and Java) I would say you have some really cool sayings there, unfortunately they are B.S.

Java was better in almost every way. What Gosling said was true as far as it goes. Not only smalltalk, but also UCSD Pascal had a VM way back in the early 80's,way before C++ was unleashed. Unfortunately, at that time systems were so slow that both were useless, but the idea was there. Sort of like Xerox and Apple if you would. That does not mean that the Mac was not an innovative machine, nor Java an innovative language.

One more thing, the reason people get so passionate about a language is that they spend a lot of time (years) getting to really understand it. Not just a couple of sound bytes. Therefore - switching from C++ to Java was not just some jump to the new lingo, but was rather accomplished by a lot of thought about merits and faults. In the same way that my jump from Fortran to C to Pascal to C++ all were

So please - stop with the snide comments unless you really have something to say...

If only there was a BitCoin angle!

[sirwired]

Gee, if only there was a way to work BitCoins into the mix, /. could milk this thing for another month!

"Oracle pays bug bounty to Apache in cash instead of BitCoins; (one-man) controversy ensues."
"Java bug slows down BitCoin mining by 0.0000045%"
"BitCoin user discusses latest Java Bug on worthless blog."

Any other story ideas for our fine Slashdot "editors"?

SirWired

Re:If only there was a BitCoin angle!

[Short Circuit]

I bow in respect to the lower UID.

Re:If only there was a BitCoin angle!

[Anonymous Coward]

usually, wired ones bow down to short circuits...

Re:If only there was a BitCoin angle!

[Short Circuit]

usually, wired ones bow down to short circuits...

Are you suggesting he salutes his shorts?

Re:If only there was a BitCoin angle!

[TheRaven64]

No mention of Apple, so those fail. How about 'Oracle's Java bug delays OpenJDK 7 port for iOS and prevents users from bitcoin mining on their iPads'.

Re:If only there was a BitCoin angle!

[ColdWetDog]

No mention of Apple, so those fail. How about 'Oracle's Java bug delays OpenJDK 7 port for iOS and prevents users from bitcoin mining on their iPads'.

Google supports Oracle's Java bug which delays OpenJDK 7 ports for iOS which prevents users from mining bitcoins on their iPad and notes that Honycomb won't have this problem (if it ever ships).

Re:If only there was a BitCoin angle!

[TheRaven64]

Bingo!

Re:If only there was a BitCoin angle!

[PCM2]

I bow in respect to the lower UID.

Yeah? Well bow in respect to mine. I wrote TFA in question, and I didn't write any of the ones you cite. Neither were they submitted by me or anyone I know. Does my editorial recap known facts? Sure, but that's how one explains things. If you know every point contained in my editorial -- assuming you made it to the end -- consider yourself clever. Perhaps you weren't the intended audience.

Re:If only there was a BitCoin angle!

[Short Circuit]

Yeah? Well bow in respect to mine. I wrote TFA in question, and I didn't write any of the ones you cite. Neither were they submitted by me or anyone I know. Does my editorial recap known facts? Sure, but that's how one explains things. If you know every point contained in my editorial -- assuming you made it to the end -- consider yourself clever. Perhaps you weren't the intended audience.

Yipes! *bows hurriedly*

Ok, I made the mistake of assuming the submitter was the same as the author, because the submitter's name links to Infoworld. I've seen author-submitted posts on Slashdot's front page so many times, it's almost expected. My apologies.

Having gone through and read the article line-by-line (I don't usually read IW articles, because, well, I prefer more-technical articles than I've seen them write.) The rest of my brief analysis was based on a very poorly-written /. submission; the submission speaks of Oracle's desires to act against open-source Java and the Apache foundation, whereas the article doesn't even address that prospect.

So, yes, my comment was wrong. I'm sorry. I'll buy you a beer if you're ever in my area. (And I know where the good microbrews are around here, too)

Re:If only there was a BitCoin angle!

[PCM2]

Well thanks.

FWIW, one thing that is annoying to me (that isn't really anybody on /.'s fault) is that my articles are often linked here totally out of context. This particular one wasn't any kind of front-page story or anything. It was an opinion column. Think page B-3 of the newspaper. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But when it gets linked on /., all of a sudden I'm part of some vast, corrupt disinformation campaign, usually based on the article's headline and the summary alone -- neither of which I even had anything to do with.

This is one reason why I don't usually get involved with discussions of my own articles when they're linked here. It's frustrating trying to answer to attacks against opinions I don't actually hold, by people who haven't actually read what I wrote. (The other reason is that after saying sometimes as much as 2,500 words of what I want to say on a topic, it's usually time to shut up and let other people talk.)

Oracle the Borg

[jameseastman]

All hail the great Rasmus :-)

Re:Oracle damaging the open-source community! GASP

[pak9rabid]

The worst case for Oracle would be it goes the way it happened with XFree86: every distribution ships the Apache version, and everybody stops caring about the original project's existence.

That's all good and well, if they can guarantee all existing Java applications will work with it. I'm not sure how it functionally compares with OpenJDK, but lots of existing Java applications simply won't work with it. If they can manage to do what OpenJDK can't, then they have a chance. Otherwise everyone is still suck using Oracle's version, especially Enterprise users (which I'd imagine accounts for most of Java's use).

Aw shucks...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Oracle's Java Policies Are Destroying the Community"

Good. I'm glad.

COBOL Forever.

[westlake]

I imagine that nobody is writing new applications in COBOL.

You could be wrong, you know

Fujitsu announced late Friday that it is shipping four middleware products designed to work with Microsoft's Windows Azure public cloud development platform

"The new line of products delivers runtime environments for Java and Cobol, two application programming languages that are commonly employed in building mission-critical systems, in addition to providing functionality enabling central monitoring between on-premise systems and the Windows Azure Platform."

Fujitsu Teams with Microsoft on Azure Middleware

Even Java, a much lauded language when it arrived 20 years ago, is already deemed to be old and "legacy". Yet, according to analyst Gartner, more than 70% of the world's business is run by a technology that was christened over 50 years ago - COBOL, or Common Business-Oriented Language.

At JD Williams Ltd, UK's leading direct home shopping company, for example, COBOL is one of the strategic languages used due to its key strengths in its English-like syntax, and the fact that is it very quick to develop in and easy to debug.

Recent research revealed that an average person would interact with a COBOL application at least ten times a day. With Gartner estimates putting the number of lines of COBOL code in excess of 200 billion, the global investment in COBOL applications exceeds several trillion dollars.

The case for COBOL

Re:COBOL Forever.

[dougmc]

I imagine that nobody is writing new applications in COBOL.

You could be wrong, you know

Fair enough. COBOL has never been my area of expertise.

I do occasional work for a company that still develops heavily in Fortran, so it's not dead either.

But while Fortran and COBOL may be "niche" languages nowadays with little (but not no) new work done in them ... java so very isn't. Just because there's something newer and hipper (what is the hot flavor of the week? Is it still Ruby on Rails, or did I blink?), that doesn't mean that java isn't still hot.

Re:COBOL Forever.

[westlake]

Fair enough. COBOL has never been my area of expertise.

COBOL is written in the language of the accountant. That will drive the hot-shot, trend-forward, programmer nuts. But if you are MetLife with 66,000 employees and 90 million policy holders the audit trail is a must.

How about a JVM language?

[FranTaylor]

Scala scheme python etc all run in the JVM

If you don't like Oracle's JVM, use the IBM one or the Apache one instead

Oracle is NOT going to destroy java, IBM and Apache will not allow it.

despite being an asshole...

[Anonymous Coward]

Despite of the man being an asshole (according to several accounts of his behaviors,) the man is no idiot. An asshole, yes. An idiot, no, not by a long shot. The real question is is the hidden motive, several layers removed...

Re:Oracle damaging the open-source community! GASP

[sourcerror]

I have pretty positive experience with OpenJDK. I guess you won't get to run into any trouble unless you use video streaming features. (codec licensing problems) For J2EE fat client or webapps you're pretty safe.

Re:Oracle damaging the open-source community! GASP

[shugah]

Dalvik for the desktop?

Re:Good, let Java die.

[luis_a_espinal]

Java kinda sucks as a language.

Google should designe a better high level language around the LLVM stack while improving the LLVM stack itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is-ought_problem

Oracle killing everything!

[swordgeek]

Let's be clear on this.

Oracle is killing everything remotely related to Sun.

They're killing SPARC.
They're killing PostGresql.
They're killing Solaris.
They're killing the Sun identity management suite (including directory server)
They're killing Java.
They're killing OpenOffice.

And they're killing every community that has formed around any one of those technologies.

Oracle is bound and determined to leave the Sun name and everything it created nothing more than a purple stain on the information highway.

Re:Oracle killing everything!

[Massacrifice]

Why the heck they did buy Sun then? It's not like Sun was standing in Oracle's way. I'll never understanding this kind of corporate merger shenanigans :

1. Buy undervalued tech outfit for billions $$$
2. Scrap technology within said outfit
3. ???
4 Profit!

Re:Oracle killing everything!

[jafac]

Reports of LibreOffice's demise are greatly exaggerated.

Everything else, though, is as good as dead. Kiss them goodbye. Virtualbox, as well.
I'd like to believe that there is enough 3rd-party community support on Java that Oracle can't kill it. But I suspect that there will be some heavy-handed legal action coming down the pipe soon, to block this. I think Oracle will allow an open effort to become established, and then kill it.

Recall that Sun is "Stanford University Network" from back in the old days. VERY literally "old school". Academic background seldom (ie. NEVER) plays-nice with MBA/business (Oracle) background, in the long-run. Just long enough to pump-and-dump. When two such corporate cultures meet in a merger, you can ALWAYS count on a clash. No matter what the PR drones say, the folks in management on the business side are going to eventually steamroller the academic side.

The only exception to this rule I've ever seen was the Apple+NeXT merger. And in the end. . . I don't think the NeXT people won-out as much as we think they did. They *did* have their golden moment to shine in the sun, maybe 2003-2007 or so, when Apple was really shaping up to be THE premier Unix platform.
Then the iOS goons took over.

Re:Oracle killing everything!

[NoOneInParticular]

s/PostGresql/MySQL/

Re:Oracle killing everything!

[farble1670]

don't be so dramatic. oracle will keep things where they can make money, and kill things where they can't. it's pretty simple, and expected behavior from a public company.

Re:Oracle killing everything!

[swordgeek]

Actually, no. No they're not. They're gutting _everything_, including the profit centres. They're actively discouraging the Sun customer base to look elsewhere. Our company is going to have spent about $15M by the time we've got off of ex-Sun products, and that's still going to be cheaper than the $18M _increase_ in costs over the same period we would have been faced with.
Follow the Sun admin community, and you'll see the same thing everywhere: If there's a Sun/Oracle product, everyone is trying to get away from it.

Re:Oracle killing everything!

[swordgeek]

I didn't say say anything about LibreOffice - I said they're killing OpenOffice. Their abuse of OO is what lead to the creation of LO as a fork, and when they saw that getting traction, they gave OO to Adobe, to develop. In short, they're going to force both forks into competition, and drive customers away.

It sounds like insane conspiracy theory stuff that is totally antithetical to how a company should be run, except that it's happening, and it's methodical.

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk

[Anrego]

I agree, but what are the viable alternatives (not a snide comment, a serious question).

Your options are basically a lower level language like c++, or a really high level language like python or perl or.. ruby..

There doesn't appear to be many middle ground competitors.. probably because java was so damn good at that. It was just the right mixture of strong typing, rigid structure, and rapid development.

Ridiculous.

[jensend]

If you can name a single desktop app which triggers the HotSpot bugs which this tempest in a teapot is all about, I'll be surprised.

Furthermore, Oracle won't push Java 7 via the auto-update before these bugs are fixed or indeed any time soon at all. In fact, I don't know that JRE 5 users were ever auto-updated to 6, and if they were, it was after JRE 5 was EOL'd (roughly three years after Java 6 was released, and long after most people had moved on of their own accord). The auto-updater is primarily for security fix purposes, so as long as security patches for the old version are still coming, users needn't be auto-upgraded.

I dislike the way Oracle has treated Apache and Google as much as anybody else, but false technical complaints don't help anybody's case.

Re:Ridiculous.

[nabsltd]

In fact, I don't know that JRE 5 users were ever auto-updated to 6, and if they were, it was after JRE 5 was EOL'd (roughly three years after Java 6 was released, and long after most people had moved on of their own accord).

No, Java 6 was pushed out in auto-update starting in 2007...that's the first time the Java app that is part of our site stopped working.

The whole point of Java 6 was that it would not let you choose which Java version would be used for browser apps, because Sun could not fix the bug that allowed malware to change that setting with no notice to the user.

Re:Oracle damaging the open-source community! GASP

[GameboyRMH]

I know what I said.

you can tune a tuba, but you can't tune a fish

[Thud457]

believe me, if you have a fish that can play jazz, you'll be kept booked solid with gigs.

Detractors of Java, do your homework

[umarekawaru]

Have Java detractors ever visited sites that make the opposite case? Of course not - this is called natural human bias. Here is an unbiased source of information: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html Even giving +/- 5 % to account for errors, Java leaves all other languages but C in the dust... ...choke choke. Heck give 10% points to others on the graph and subtract 10% from Java. That might help...

Re:Detractors of Java, do your homework

[shutdown -p now]

TIOBE provides a (very flawed and distorted) index of popularity of a given language. This does not, generally speaking, translate to how good the language actually is compared to other languages.

Oracle/Sun Test Bullshit

[lseltzer]

This is related to the fundamental fraud behind Sun's lawsuit against Microsoft back in the late 90's. The contract between the two defined the standard for compatibility as the Java Technology Compatibility Kit or whatever it was called at the time, and defined it as Sun's publicly available tests. Sun/Oracle has never had any publicly available tests. You've always had to sign a strict NDA to get access to them

I work for Oracle

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting anonymously because I work for Oracle. This is just par for the course; we can't even get the resources we need to do basic development. Anything other than the standard low-end laptop is impossible which would make sense given they are pushing us all to develop on VMs... except I can only have one and it gets 6 GB memory, 100 GB disk space, period. No exceptions. Need to test a 12 GB dataset in memory? Forget it. Need a second VM for a six month project? Nope. Want to run on an 8 core machine to test threading? Not gonna happen. Need to load a customer's 200 GB database? Sorry bub. I wanted a $200 screen upgrade on my laptop so I can work on the UI without scrolling. Result? denied. Any variations must be personally approved by Larry Ellison.

A normal ratio of testers to developers might be 1 tester per two developers, better if you're 1:1. Oracle? Nope... our ratio is more like 1 tester per 7-8 developers. As a result our customers test everything n the field. The news abouit the loop optimization thing doesn't surprise me in the least, nor does the decision to just release anyway and patch it later. That's pretty much SOP across the whole company. Zero thought goes into streamlining installers or how much hassle things will be for customers to maintain - that's just a services revenue opportunity.

If you want to poach developers from a large company, Oracle is a great target. Their policies are designed to frustrate the developers on a daily basis. Why customers put up with it I have no idea. And if you think Oracle gives a rat's ass about open source, you're wrong. The only thing that matters is money. How can we make the most money off it. Pissing off open source developers is simply not on anyone's radar.

Oracle has a good reason to fight Apache

[Anonymous Coward]

The Bruce Perens' article on relationship between Microsoft and Apache published in 2008 is even more timely today.

Apache distribute their Java implementation under permissive non-copyleft license, thus making Java vulnerable to EEE (Embrace, extend and extinguish). And they are payed for that by Microsoft and Google.

I think differently

[ilyanov]

Its already destroyed. Oracle just don't have the mojo Sun had. Try searching for things on java and you invariably end up with an Oracle landing page that doesn't remember all the knowledge Sun had shared. Check out their wiki now, its bloody pathetic. Check out the old Sun blog site and you would see useless junk. Oracle is the wrong steward for Java and that is never going to change. I bailed out and am now spending my free time working with Nodejs and Mongodb. Alas, its only a matter of time before some heartless and soul-less company like Oracle buys both of them and give them a kiss of death.

Re:Alternatives? Yep, and many.

[luis_a_espinal]

I thought that on x86 at least, most Java is JIT compiled to high performance native.

Just-in-time compilation

HotSpot

In all major platforms the JVM runs, not just on x86. Heck, there are high performance platforms out there (Azul comes to mind) that have the JVM, the JIT, the GC and a lot of other things running on the dye.

When james Gosling got mad...

[blackair]

the writting was on the wall, bad behavior, from Oracle....who would have "thunk" it. I really like the java language but I feel oracle is really hurting it's future, and with Ruby (on rails), Python (django) and .net/mono all nippiing at your heels is it really the best strategic move on their part.

They knew it was broken when they shipped it

[Sarusa]

The worst thing that's in here, if nobody bothers to actually read page 2 of TFA, is that Oracle knew the JVM didn't do loops properly when it shipped it - they shipped it anyhow and hoped nobody'd notice until everyone upgraded.

Well it's not like loops are an important language construct at least. I knew all those years of doing everything with gotos would finally pay off.

Re:They knew it was broken when they shipped it

[Desler]

And an even more important thing is that this bug predates Java ever being in Oracle's hands.

Re:They knew it was broken when they shipped it

[Sarusa]

Yes, which is one big reason this was turned off by default. Oracle turned it on by default, breaking even old code. Maybe so it'd do better in benchmarks against Dalvik? Who knows. It was broken, they knew it was broken, they shipped it anyhow.

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk

[DrXym]

Well Groovy fixes a lot of egregious problems in Java. I think if something appeared with Groovy like terseness but as a true superset of Java (i.e. a Java++) that it could do very well. Problem as I see it is Oracle is too petrified to do anything to the language for fear of breaking it and at this point the best hope is someone else takes over. That or Oracle splits it's language development out a la Fedora vs Redhat with a stable runtime for enterprises and more frequent unstable releases with new useful stuff.

Java portability

[Anonymous Coward]

Not true. We run the same java code on Windows/x86, Linux/x86/ Linux/ARM and Linux/Powerpc,
all debugged over ethernet from the same IDE. The world is not limited to desktop
applications (actually, we have a cross-platform desktop app too).

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk

[shutdown -p now]

It will be interesting to see what happens with Kotlin. IMO, the alternative languages targeting JVM would steal Java's thunder a long time ago, if not for sucky tooling (especially IDE support incl. code completion and designers). But Kotlin is made by JetBrains, and you can be sure that there will be full support for it in IDEA once it's released. That may well be a game changer.

The Oatmeal said it best...

[Zancarius]

Unless I'm missing something also, it's probably the fact that a large majority of the population doesn't actually understand what the the word irony actually means.

This is appropriate for your comment. Read the entire comic, but I think it's important that you pay particular attention to the very last point along with the advice that trails it.

Re:The Oatmeal said it best...

[neokushan]

I'd just like to point out that in my original post, I wasn't so much debating the Irony in the situation, but rather asking for clarification as to why it was Ironic. The summary implies that a lot more has went on with Apache and Java than stated and since I'm not clued up on it, I was curious for more information. I was half-expecting someone to say that Apache invested into Java in some way, before decrying it to be sour.

Re:The Oatmeal said it best...

[Zancarius]

I'd just like to point out that in my original post, I wasn't so much debating the Irony in the situation, but rather asking for clarification as to why it was Ironic. The summary implies that a lot more has went on with Apache and Java than stated and since I'm not clued up on it, I was curious for more information. I was half-expecting someone to say that Apache invested into Java in some way, before decrying it to be sour.

That's fair enough. In my defense, I had the unfortunate luck to have seen several corrections offered to the use of "irony" from various sites (Slashdot included), so I was a little raw over interpreting what I thought was a similar circumstance here. :)

My apologies for the misinterpretation and a good day to you.

Stop Whining

[Anonymous Coward]

stop whining, guys. The first version of a major release had a bug, that happens to the best of us. Whoever put Java 7 Update 0 on day 0 on a production server is an idiot. The only question is why oracle did not disable the feature in question, but that is probably due to bad product management, not an overall strategical issue.

Look at it this way.

[luis_a_espinal]

I've never understood why a virtual machine is, in any way, better than an intermediate language that can be compiled to native code for a particular platform.

For the same reason that in many platforms (x86 for instance), your compiled code gets compiled to high level instructions and not directly into microcode. In the same way that the x86 instruction set insulates you from possible chip architectural changes (that could change the underlying microcode), so does software-level vm instruction sets. The later provides you with a higher level of abstraction to work on, tends to simplify things, and provides a good-enough degree (but a 100% one) on portability across machine architectures.

An interpreted language may make sense for dynamically created code.

Java is not an interpreted language. It compiles to JVM byte code with very small resemblance to the original source code. An interpreted language is one that is parsed and, if valid, executed at run time. The adjective 'interpreted' doesn't fit here.

Even so, why not just compile it first?

But you do. You compile it into JVM bytecode. Compilation does not mean absolutely translate into hardware-specific machine instructions.

You can run interpreted code in a sandbox

Or you could run compiled code in a sandbox (pls see previous comment about interpreted vs compiled.)

but any IM compiler could add the same features to native code.

Yes, but then you have to implement back-end native instruction generators for the platforms. OTH, if you provide a VM (not just necessarily a JVM), which itself is compiled to a selected number architectures, and which code and behavior is narrower than the general cases one has to consider otherwise, then you only focus on the issues pertaining to application-specific code compiling to into that VM.

Also, a VM provides higher-level abstractions that make development of apps (and compiler toolchains and introspection tools) easier.

One thing to remember is that a VM (and the JVM in particular) provides another layer of abstraction with services and constrains not necessarily available (nor desirable) at the OS level.

For better or worse, depending on how you want to look at it, the JVM provides a security model, a memory model, a concurrency model, etc. It provides class loading and reloading capabilities, integrity checking of classes before loading, easier mechanisms for bytecode manipulation and reflection (this extremely important for most app-level development), a robust JIT, configurable garbage collection algorithms that you can configure according to the type of hardware you have, and so on and so on.

So the JVM is not just a bytecode interpreter, but an entire operating environment with high-level services targeted for a specific class of problems (and the applications that solves them.) For that type of application development, a VM makes more sense than direct compilation to an architecture instruction set on an executable format that is typically OS-specific.

Re:Look at it this way.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Java VM is a very poor abstraction for most underlying hardware. I think a general purpose IM would be a much better idea.

Re:Oracle damaging the open-source community! GASP

[Anonymous Coward]

Somebody commented the other day on the number of JVMs they had to have installed to keep java application compatibility without modifications. Judging by that I would say that OpenJDK vs Oracle JDK isn't going to be any better or worse, except for the fact that with the former you might have the opportunity to undo, fix, or reimplement any changes which caused your previously compiled java app to break. Additionally security fixes could be backported without larger architectural changes which might cause the same issues.

Java = Dead, Android = Dead

[Anonymous Coward]

I admire the incompetence of Oracle. They've pretty much destroyed Java. They accomplished what Microsoft couldn't.

Want to see why Java SE is no longer standard on any phone, and Android moves away from Dalvik? *points to Oracle*

Nice job breaking it.

Sure, Java may still have some life in the enterprise (which is probably what Oracle had in mind to squeeze), but it's pretty much dead now as a future mobile and desktop development language. It's in the same basket as Silverlight, Flash (Which Adobe is doing a nice job killing, not Apple), and pretty much anything else that falls out of favor.

Steve Jobs must have a sixth sense for predicting the future. Notice how Apple convienently drops technology when they become performance issues?

Re: Jump ship for an open version of Java?

[transporter_ii]

You mean like Google did? And where are they now? In court. Something about patents or something.

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk

[pavon]

I don't really consider Groovy to be a middle-ground language like Java and C# are. It's performance isn't any better than python, ruby, or the other high-level languages, so I just lump it along with them.

C#? you've got to be kidding me!?

[bussdriver]

If you want to avoid these problems do not support "technologies" that lock you in even if the dealer gives you free samples and is friendly -- it is only to get you addicted, then you are at their mercy.

Oracle may make MS look nicer but moving from 1 megacorp who can screw you at a whim to another one isn't a step away from the problem... MS messed up a whole lot for the planet for a long time; worst. track. record. ever. Nothing says that MS doesn't cause a nightmare later on; they are already making a bunch of idiotic claims against linux and any obvious idea that runs on a cell phone they could skew a patent to cover. MS isn't interested in C# right now, just like SUN was ok with Java and many things for a long time... and look what happened. I'm not saying MS will merge with Oracle and become super evil (that is possible) but they merely can decide to use their power over you with a whim of the CEO (or in this case, a chair throwing fit.)

Re:Usual Oracle bashing - TARD alert!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets's examine this -

BEA best app server? Purlease - their clustered (sorry cluster-fucked) solutions were always awful. You needed top-end servers to run a J2EE 'Paula bean' (see dailywtf for details of the Paula bean)

Fucking over Java and Openoffice? Only the most fervent of Java-tards would have failed to notice the rest of the dev world moved onto Erlang, Python, Ruby, back to C++, heck - anything but the disease that was factory-singleton-aop-eclipse is slow-machine got pwned because of lame date class Java. And OpenOffice? Heh - when it finishes loading, even M$ Office has opened the document!

Which 18 companies are these then?

are apples better than oranges?

[luis_a_espinal]

The Java VM is a very poor abstraction for most underlying hardware. I think a general purpose IM would be a much better idea.

You know that the Java VM is not an abstraction for most underlying hardware, don't you. As I mentioned in my prev. post, it is an operating environment for a specific class of problems which provides a slew of app-specific services that are not necessarily general purpose. IM servers one type of purposes, VMs serve others.

Also, I know that you think like that. However, I *think* you need to qualify your stated opinion. Without it, it is as valuable as saying "I think oranges are better than apples."

I mean seriously, what do you mean by this?

The Java VM is a very poor abstraction for most underlying hardware.

Why? How? Under what conditions? More importantly, is that the JVM's objective? (hint: it isn't)

And and what to you mean by this?

I think a general purpose IM would be a much better idea.

Why? How? Under what circumstances? And if IM is a better alternative, how is it to implement the configurable gc logic, the class loading logic, the JMX and other management extension logic, the security manager logic, the reflection logic, the JNDI logic, the JDBC logic, all the specs that come with it (all of which are defined as universal standards for that application stack)?

Obviously it would have to be deployed in the OS as a shared library, and then you'll have to ask you why is that a better deployment/distribution model over the JVM, how and under what conditions.

Without that, all you are saying is that *you like* apples more than oranges. Not much helpful, isn't?

Re:are apples better than oranges?

[Anonymous Coward]

You know that the Java VM is not an abstraction for most underlying hardware, don't you.

It's a poor abstraction for most underlying hardware.

As I mentioned in my prev. post, it is an operating environment for a specific class of problems which provides a slew of app-specific services that are not necessarily general purpose.

Native code is an operating enviroment for a wider class of problems.

IM servers one type of purposes, VMs serve others.

No. Native code provides a superset. You're comparing apples and oranges and they're neither.

Also, I know that you think like that.

Huh? Make sense please.

However, I *think* you need to qualify your stated opinion.

Why? You're clearly unable to provide a single counterpoint.

Without it, it is as valuable as saying "I think oranges are better than apples."

Except I'm not comparing apples to orangles.

And and what to you mean by this?

That a common IM would be superior to using the JVM.

Why?

The size of the bytecode isn't important.

How?

Native code is always preferable. Everything else just does the same thing with added overhead.

Under what circumstances?

Any. IM code can be compressed for transmission over a network.

And if IM is a better alternative, how is it to implement the configurable gc logic, the class loading logic, the JMX and other management extension logic, the security manager logic, the reflection logic, the JNDI logic, the JDBC logic, all the specs that come with it (all of which are defined as universal standards for that application stack)?

Obviously all of that can be run in native code. In addition an IM doesn't have to be limited by the JVM.

Obviously it would have to be deployed in the OS as a shared library, and then you'll have to ask you why is that a better deployment/distribution model over the JVM, how and under what conditions.

Obviously under any conditions.

Without that, all you are saying is that *you like* apples more than oranges.

No. What I was saying was: The Java VM is a very poor abstraction for most underlying hardware. I think a general purpose IM would be a much better idea.

Not much helpful, isn't?

Not if you think I'm comparing apples to oranges. When obviously I'm not.

What are the alternatives?

[CarbonShell]

I am a huge fan of Java, even with some of it's shortcomings, and after the Oracle acquisition would have dumped it right then and there if there were an alternative.
I doubt I am the only one who thinks this way, but we need a 'drop-in' alternative and if possible one that will completely detach the next-best-Java from any oracle-poisonous tentacle.

Because we gotta be honest, a LOT of Java based systems exist in the professional markets and they will not just re-programm their entire systems because of Oracles antics (though many do see the writing on the wall and are worried).

I would see Google + Gosslin (SP?) as ideal candidates to create such a new Java. Their Dalvik-VM being a prime example of a possible future replacement.

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk

[DrXym]

I think that's a disadvantage of how Groovy works which is as a largely dynamically compiled language. It's going to have a greater runtime overhead than would the equivalent Java code. Dynamic compilation & type checking would hurt runtime speed, and might also prevent it benefiting from some of the optimizations that the JVM could offer it. On the flip side however, Java code is rarely performance critical and if you absolutely needed speed in one particular chunk of the program you could code it in Java. There is a Groovy++ which ironically gives Groovy some of the characteristics of vanilla Java such as static types.

I would envisage that any Java++ would be a hybrid which supported static compilation of Java code plus extensions but also had dynamic runtime functionality for things like domain specific languages. So your code for the most part would still be compiled byte code but if you wanted you could drop a bit of declarative UI, or Groovy, or Scala, or HQL or something straight in the middle of the Java class and the runtime would run it seamlessly.

Re:Oracle damaging the open-source community! GASP

[metamatic]

Otherwise everyone is still suck using Oracle's version, especially Enterprise users (which I'd imagine accounts for most of Java's use).

IBM's enterprise Java products all use IBM's Java runtime, not Oracle's, as far as I know.

Re:Watch me falling asleep over Javatalk

[digitig]

The trouble is, it's all about future languages. For the desktop at the moment my choices seem to be Python or Ruby for scripting -- both good, choice down to programmer preference and availability of pre-rolled code relevant to the project in hand -- and C# or Java for larger-scale stuff, both bogged down with corporate ownership issues. I'm almost tempted to revert to C++ unless somebody can point me to a real viable alternative rather than an experimental language. (There's some stuff I do in Ada, but that's a bit heavy for general purpose stuff).

Amazing..

[twoHats]

I can't believe anyone is surprised by this behaviour. It is written (somewhere) the the Gods of Commerce get to do whatever the hell they want, and we all know that they sure as hell DON'T want to share...

However, we are very lucky. Rarely is the solution so clear.

1. If you willingly do biz with Oracle, especially in the Java arena, but really in any context, you lose your right to bitch about Oracle's bad behaviour.

2. Go back to the last FOSS version of Java and fork it. And this time don't sell it to any greed heads - yep, I am putting Sun in this category also.

Hang in there - we are all in this together ...