Slashdot Mirror


Belarus Cracks Down On VKontakte

decora writes "On several recent Wednesdays, Russian language social networking site Vkontakte has been blocked by the government of Belarus. The blocks are partly to prevent the organization of 'Silent Protests,' in which citizens gather in city squares, and clap in protest against president Alexander Lukashenko. The government has designated the people involved as "social network revolutionaries" and charged many with disorderly conduct. One VKontakte user, Mikhail Karatkevich, is to be put on trial August 10 for 'organizing a mass rally' after he posted a meeting notice onto his page. According to Charter 97, the regime has even set up fake proxy servers to capture the unwitting; Tor is the suggested solution."

73 of 111 comments (clear)

  1. Time defeats all by William+(Dthdealer) · · Score: 1, Insightful

    When internet access becomes a human right, the action of censorship will become illegal

    --
    Linux has bugs. Windows has holes. I am +10/11GMT.
  2. Re:+1 Like by Garridan · · Score: 1

    I, too, like silent protests. I like them so much, I applaud when I show up to one.

  3. Tor? by beat.bolli · · Score: 1

    Now who do you think would also set up a few Tor servers to listen in?

    --
    Karma: none (due to not believing in reincarnation)
    1. Re:Tor? by rbrausse · · Score: 1

      as VKontakte is a clone/rip-off of Facebook I would imagine that the EULA regarding real names are similar instructed and enforced. (can't prove my point, I don't speak/read Russian)

        it is kind of senseless using an anonymizing network to write something with your real name attached...

    2. Re:Tor? by beat.bolli · · Score: 1

      How would VKontakte (or Facebook, for that matter) enforce that someone enters their real name? It's not like you have to present an ID when you register. Special-interest groups (dissidents?) could agree on pseudonyms out-of-band and use them just on the social network.

      --
      Karma: none (due to not believing in reincarnation)
    3. Re:Tor? by rbrausse · · Score: 1

      Facebook actually block accounts when someone (or the software) believe the name is fake.

      Social networks are great tools for organising protests, with the big advantage of openness and the big disadvantage of openness. The currents uproars (North Africa, Middle East, Belarus, ...) are driven by the masses; the demonstrations are successful because a notable percentage of the citizens are participating. Using of pseudonyms would slow down the information flow, and this would (arguable) the end of the protests: The strength of the movement are the people on the street.

    4. Re:Tor? by Nysul · · Score: 1

      If they are similarly enforced, my dog has a facebook page, so I think as long as you use any realistic sounding name it doesn't have to be linked to your real identity at all.

    5. Re:Tor? by klapaucjusz · · Score: 1

      Tor is not only for hiding your identity from the server; it's also useful for preventing your ISP from learning who you're connecting to, and for tunnelling aroud any firewalls that might be in place (as long as tor itself isn't blocked).

      For example, I commonly use ssh over tor. Since I'm authentifying to the server, I'm obviously not hiding from it, but I prevent my ISP from knowing where I ssh to.

      -- jch

    6. Re:Tor? by mrogers · · Score: 1
      But your dog isn't (I assume) a political activist. Facebook doesn't go out of its way to track down accounts with false names, but if someone complains that your account has a false name, it will be suspended until you provide legal documentation of the name, such as a passport or driver's license.

      This has happened, and continues to happen, to activists around the world. Michael Anti, the Chinese journalist, was one high-profile case. There's a Facebook fan page about him, but he's no longer allowed to have a Facebook account.

    7. Re:Tor? by utkonos · · Score: 1

      EULA? It's enforced by connecting your account to a cell phone. You can buy a SIM card anywhere with no ID and no questions asked. Sometimes in Russia places like Evroset will ask for ID, but most places don't, and nowhere in Ukraine asks for anything at all except money.

    8. Re:Tor? by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      If Vkontakte allows HTTPS connections, install the Perspectives addon and let them. They can listen to garbage.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    9. Re:Tor? by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Facebook actually block accounts when someone (or the software) believe the name is fake.

      [citation needed]

      If this is actually true, I want to read it from an authoritative source.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    10. Re:Tor? by rbrausse · · Score: 1

      out of the head one quite recent example (okay, I had to google a link...): Michael Anti/Zhao Jing

    11. Re:Tor? by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Okay, in that regard, yes. I'm thinking of the people who make nonsense profiles for a stuffed, pink dolphin "Pink Floyd." Which is somewhat different, I suppose...

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
  4. There's like mass revolutions everywhere by GoodNewsJimDotCom · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I wonder if dictators are getting scared with the mass amounts of revolutions everywhere. It is like revolution fever! It is just simply sad about how many people are losing their lives in these. It just goes to show you how corrupt the governments are when people are getting killed for non violent protests.

    1. Re:There's like mass revolutions everywhere by sjames · · Score: 1

      Or it could just be a bandwagon effect. Nothing spurs people to actually do something they were considering like seeing others doing it.

    2. Re:There's like mass revolutions everywhere by plover · · Score: 1

      +1, they approve of this message.

      --
      John
    3. Re:There's like mass revolutions everywhere by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      This may be damning with faint praise, but that was one of the most insightful posts I've ever read on Slashdot. Thank you!

  5. Facebook is equally complicity in allowing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    authoritarian governments to track down dissidents. On Thursday, Al Jazeera, broadcast a documentary about how authorities in Bahrain were able to efficiently utilize Facebook to apprehend dissidents.

    [quote]
    It tells the story of Ayat al Qurmezi, a 20-year-old woman, who first attracted attention from authorities by publicly reading a poem that was critical of Crown Prince Salman bin Hamad al-Khalifa and the king.

    Her actions, at Pearl Roundabout in Manama, the focal point of the demonstrations, led to a Facebook page calling for her torture and arrest.

    Thousands of pro-government supporters flocked to the page, where they goaded each other to post horrific messages such as "I spit on you whore!" and "God willing the security forces smash her mouth and teeth", before demanding the woman's arrest.

    The film alleges that this page, and others like it, were allowed to stay live for months instead of being pulled down by moderators.

    And as the documentary reports, those wishes were granted when with the help of the Facebook page, Ayat was tracked down and taken into custody.

    "What we've heard is that Ayat was tortured and put in the military hospital," Ayat's mother says in the 50-minute film. "I'm going to die from worrying about her."

    It was only three months later that Ayat turned up on state TV, to issue an apology that the family says was obtained by force.

    The documentary also alleges that Facebook pages which showed photos of known protesters were set-up and left active for weeks, in order for authorities to track them down and arrest them. Each of the pictures was 'checked off' as the protesters were captured.
    [/quote]
    Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2011/08/04/al-jazeera-documentary-to_n_918188.html

    The documentary is titled "Bahrain: Shouting in the dark", and is available to watch here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaTKDMYOBOU .

  6. Re:Third party services by rbrausse · · Score: 1

    I just tried it with an open proxy in Belarus (213.184.241.106:3128) and neither vkontakte.ru nor imo.im are blocked...

  7. Well done, Zmagary! by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

    Silently standing and clapping hands -- that brings passive-aggressive behavior to the whole new level!

    --
    Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    1. Re:Well done, Zmagary! by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Silently standing and clapping hands -- that brings passive-aggressive behavior to the whole new level!

      The summary said "stand there, and clap".

      Maybe a large number of them are infected with chlamydia.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    2. Re:Well done, Zmagary! by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Because you think protesting aggressively in a former Soviet republic would go off well...?

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    3. Re:Well done, Zmagary! by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      No, because protesting involves EXPRESSING WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU AGAINST, AND WHY.

      So far, "protests" look more like "we hate everything about everything here, and hope some foreign invaders will replace it with something we will like".

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    4. Re:Well done, Zmagary! by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Or they think that the thing they're protesting against is so obvious they don't have to come right out and say it.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    5. Re:Well done, Zmagary! by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      It's only "obvious" to Americans -- for them every protest is "for democracy".

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    6. Re:Well done, Zmagary! by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Not really what I was going for, and thanks for lumping us all in with the minority Tea Party. Thanks a lot.

      Better example: One of those (more progressive, obviously) Middle Eastern countries cuts off Internet access. The same day, a bunch of people take to the streets in protest. I think we can safely say, that it would be pretty obvious what they were protesting.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
  8. Re:Third party services by Plunky · · Score: 1

    friday is not wednesday

  9. Re:Third party services by rbrausse · · Score: 1

    oops, I thought it would be an ongoing block. And not only friday is not wednesday, but additionally the post on charter97 is wednesday, July 20.

  10. not a wealthy dictatorship by roman_mir · · Score: 1

    I don't see anybody trying to bring democracy to that country, might it be that there is nothing to take there? No oil and the only gas is coming out of that gas bag of a 'president'? Lukashenko is even more pathetic than the Dear Leader of North Korea, he can't even threaten anybody with anything except his own citizens.

  11. Re:Our jokes backfired! by _KiTA_ · · Score: 1

    That's because that's not the right URL for the parody. This is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 (yes, it's a rickroll) Captcha: Not found

  12. Belarusians deserve this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Belarus is a country of about 9.5 million people in Eastern Europe. When the Soviet Union and other communist regimes fell world over during the late 1980s and early 90s, Belarusians did nothing. It is one of the last reminiscences of Soviet-era communism in Europe – when the other Eastern Bloc countries started the transition to democracy, market economy and European integration as soon as the Russian dominance fell, Belarusians chose to remain a closed, authoritarian, communist society. Now, when even Russia has moved towards democracy and continues to have one of the most liberal economies in the world, Belarus' position to remain a poor, backwater communist regime cuts it off ever more severely from normal Western cultural development. In the end, the blame lies on the Belarusian people, who failed to stand up and revolutionize the society in the 1990s.

    It is both encouraging and sad to see these few courageous citizens standing up to the oppression, but sadly it feels like they have already missed the rain by two decades. Knowing that these people could end up with long prison sentences and potentially capital punishment, one can only admire their courage. Maybe the Arab Spring will one day reach as far north as Belarus..

    1. Re:Belarusians deserve this by roman_mir · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Now, when even Russia has moved towards democracy and continues to have one of the most liberal economies in the world

      - wow, what a load of crap! What does it mean 'liberal' in this context? What Russia has today is an insanely controlling top heavy government, which is involved in shaking down all of the businesses that are not the largest raw material and energy exporters. You can't do business in Russia if you actually follow the rules, you will never make a single ruble of profit by following the rules, which are almost on purpose designed to discourage any business activity. You can only do business in Russia if you do things in various shady to semi-shady ways, only then you can actually have some profit, and I believe this is done on purpose, so that nobody can be 'crystal clear' and everybody always has something that he can be incriminated with, because that's the way the government likes it - making sure they can always throw you behind bars and confiscate your business, which they often do. Of-course they can do it even without finding anything actually shady, they can come up with insane 'evidence' and people who will support it and put you behind bars regardless of any evidence, and the courts are told what to do.

      If THAT is what you consider liberal, then it's liberal.

    2. Re:Belarusians deserve this by slater.jay · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure you're a troll.

  13. Not that surprising from Belarus by damn_registrars · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Journalists who visit Belarus (and there are very few that are allowed) often come back saying that Belarus is the last Soviet republic. One party system, state controls everything, massive corruption, deteriorating everything, you name it. All the negatives of soviet style communism with none of the positives of actual Marxist ideals. People are often rated as being more free to criticize their government in China, Cuba, or Iran than they are in Belarus.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    1. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by royallthefourth · · Score: 5, Informative

      All the negatives of soviet style communism with none of the positives

      Belarus avoided the collapse that plagued all other former Soviet republics (including Russia) by keeping its system intact and has a higher standard of living than the others because of it.
      http://www.elenastravel.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?action=belarus#eco

      Better to have a corrupt dictator running the country who otherwise believes in what he's doing than to have normal business interests running things, it seems.

    2. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      i'd rather be free and poor than a well-to-do slave

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    3. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by royallthefourth · · Score: 1

      How could my standard be so low when my standard is simply to say that it's better than every other country with that shared post-Soviet history?
      And how will the people have the authority to run things? Liberal democracy? The people couldn't be more disconnected from what's happening in government in the rest of the CIS, or the USA for that matter. What would these people demand, anyway? Food? Shelter? Education? Employment? They already have that. Perhaps they will demand that the government sell all its assets to the mafia like they did in Russia! Enjoy your liberal democracy!

    4. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by royallthefourth · · Score: 2

      Free how? In the USA it's free to be homeless if you can't find a job. But apparently Belorussians will all be slaves until they have unrestricted access to Facebook.
      You disrespect all who have suffered in slavery.

    5. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by plover · · Score: 1

      i'd rather be free and poor than a well-to-do slave

      I'd like to believe I'd think that, too, except I have never experienced poverty. Those are easy-to-say words.

      Free can mean many different things, but even in a free country there are lots of rules.

      --
      John
    6. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      "the positives of actual Marxist ideals"? What, like jailing anyone who doesn't agree with Marxist thought?

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    7. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by circletimessquare · · Score: 2

      if you don't have freedom of political expression, you are a slave

      it's not about facebook, it's about the right to speak your mind and to choose your government. if you can't choose your government or openly criticize it, yes, you are a slave

      that is not disrespectful of the history of slavery, it is an accurate word to use to describe the use of power in despotism: all citizens are slaves. you have no rights. 100% accurate: you are a slave. i am not cheapening the word or disrespecting the history of slavery, i am accurately describing the state of the freedoms and rights of those who live under despotism

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    8. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      i am not talking free as in the teenage idiotic definition of freedom: freedom from responsibility

      i am talking free as in the adult intelligent definition of freedom: an open participant in the formation of your government and the right to speak whatever is on your mind and criticize anything and anyone you want without fear of official repercussions

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    9. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      http://www.storyit.com/Classics/Stories/citycountrymouse.htm

      A country mouse invited his cousin who lived in the city to come visit him. The city mouse was so disappointed with the sparse meal which was nothing more than a few kernels of corn and a couple of dried berries.

                "My poor cousin," said the city mouse, "you hardly have anything to eat! I do believe that an ant could eat better! Please do come to the city and visit me, and I will show you such rich feasts, readily available for the taking."

                So the country mouse left with his city cousin who brought him to a splendid feast in the city's alley. The country mouse could not believe his eyes. He had never seen so much food in one place. There was bread, cheese, fruit, cereals, and grains of all sorts scattered about in a warm cozy portion of the alley.

                The two mice settled down to eat their wonderful dinner, but before they barely took their first bites, a cat approached their dining area. The two mice scampered away and hid in a small uncomfortable hole until the cat left. Finally, it was quiet, and the unwelcome visitor went to prowl somewhere else. The two mice ventured out of the hole and resumed their abundant feast. Before they could get a proper taste in their mouth, another visitor intruded on their dinner, and the two little mice had to scuttle away quickly.

              "Goodbye," said the country mouse, "You do, indeed, live in a plentiful city, but I am going home where I can enjoy my dinner in peace."

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    10. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by zoom-ping · · Score: 1

      Belarus avoided the collapse that plagued all other former Soviet republics (including Russia) by keeping its system intact and has a higher standard of living than the others because of it.

      What the fuck have you been smoking? No, I don't want any.
      They have the one of the lowest standard of living, only places like Moldova can compete. I'm from Estonia. We had our collapse and built a better system. Belarus wasn't doing that good in the 90s either, but they haven't really made any progress either. My friends who have visited say that the country is an alternate universe where the USSR never collapsed.

    11. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

      "the positives of actual Marxist ideals"? What, like jailing anyone who doesn't agree with Marxist thought?

      If you view that as a Marxist ideal then you don't understand Marxism. Unfortunately most movements that were associated - generally by name only - with Marxism didn't understand actual Marxist ideals, either; which left many others with a total lack of understanding of the concept as well.

      In reality most "Marxist" movements were even further from actual Marxist ideals than the bloodiest parts of the crusades were from Christian ideals.

      --
      Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    12. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by karuna · · Score: 1

      Estonia is that much better either. The standard of living is higher but not by much. GDP (PPP) of Estonia is $18,518 vs. $13,909 in Belarus.

      Estonia is that much better either. The standard of living is higher but not by much. GDP (PPP) of Estonia is $18,518 vs. $13,909 in Belarus. Besides unemployment and emigration to better European countries in Estonia is much higher.

      Of course, Belarus politically is backwards country and Lukashenko is a dictator but Belarus has considerable higher standard of living than Molodova ($3,082) and Ukraine ($6,656).

    13. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by karuna · · Score: 1

      You can criticize the US government without any issues in Belarus. :)

      On the other hand, wikileaks activists have a lot of trouble in the US.

      Discounting this, the US has more freedom but it still has very strict limits. I would say that Belarus people has as much freedom as China. Most people tolerate the current status in exchange of economy growth. Lukashenko will die or be forced out one day and then it is better to have country in order instead of ruins.

    14. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by karuna · · Score: 1

      There is a saying: Poverty is the cause of all vices. This is exemplified in India which is technically democracy but the extreme poverty only creates corruption and misery. You don't have to be obscenely rich but without decent standard of living you will not be free or safe.

    15. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I grew up in Belarus, still have family and childhood friends who live there and have followed whats been going on even though i do not live there. Let me start by saying that the stable economy you are suggesting is in some way better than Russia's is not what it seems. It is not an economy but an allowance from a much larger Russia. Until recently it has been HEAVILY reliant on Russian Oil and gas, in exchange for control and access to Europe. Lukashenka, the long standing Belarussian dictator, idolizes Stalin (google his pictures) and modeled the Belarussian economy after the failed soviet policies. The oil and gas profits used to make up 3/4 of gdp at one point, most of it the direct result of Russian subsidies, while most of the rest of businesses including banks are state controlled and run at a net loss. Lukashenka used to regularly fake election results and bribe the sitizens by paying higher pensions and wages than elsewhere in CIS including Russia. So in effect its a puppet government. Trouble is, the money ran dry. Belarus has had record inflation in the past couple of months. Some of that is due to Russia cutting off the air supply for Lukashenka in the form of subsidies so that they can gain control of the gas pipeline instead of continuing with the subsidies. The sad part is that Belarussians were willing participants in this scheme as long as there was a little stability despite the insanity of the regime in many ways similar to North Korea. But now that there is high inflation they finally get out in the streets to protest. Nothing will change in Belarus, its an aging country with a dwindling population. Those that have the means to leave are leaving in droves. The west has turned a blind eye because they dont want to step on russias turf. So, still think that economy model is better than yours?

    16. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by plover · · Score: 1

      i am not talking free as in the teenage idiotic definition of freedom: freedom from responsibility

      i am talking free as in the adult intelligent definition of freedom: an open participant in the formation of your government and the right to speak whatever is on your mind and criticize anything and anyone you want without fear of official repercussions

      By that definition Germany is not free, because a particular political party has been officially banned. I'm not suggesting for a minute that that particular group of people should rise to power again, but it's an example of a now enlightened country learning a lesson on "freedom" the hard way, and placing limits on themselves so they don't repeat the horrific mistakes of the past. If you stand in a German town square and say that former leader should be honored and there should be a return to his prior ways, you will be officially arrested and jailed for such speech. They have rules, yet I consider them a free country.

      Here in America, we have always held that permitting such speech, even hate speech, is an absolute right. I suppose this allows the extremist elements to blow off steam safely, because they usually appear as stupid to most people as they generally are. But there is a always a significant percentage of any population of people who have proven themselves happy to follow the voices of various extremists. In many examples throughout history, religious leaders have been able to rally many of the faithful to their cause. In the 1920's Germany's extremism began as a secular movement, but it was based on strong biases against various sets of minorities, especially minority religions. The American right wing became as powerful as they have only because a few decades ago they aligned themselves with the group of religions that most citizens follow to some degree; although they occasionally are forced to acknowledge the establishment clause, they have come close to creating their own tyranny of the majority. And they are still trying, with laws attacking the practices of minority people they don't approve of.

      Freedom of speech is necessary, of course. Women would not have the vote without it. Homosexuality would have remain outlawed without it (and there are still many official biases against it, including the "defense of marriage" bill.)

      Even still, there are blatant examples of the authorities attempting to use their position of authority to twist the laws to silence critics. They couldn't arrest anyone for publicly speaking ill of them, but these people have used a cyberstalking statute to get a judge to order a subpoena to identify their anonymous critic. Therefore, all you have to do now is "offend" the wrong official and they'll find a way to throw you in jail. I can only hope the ACLU can convince the Department of Justice to bring these corrupt officials up on charges of abuse of power, otherwise there will be no end to the number of petty officials suppressing free speech across this country.

      So, is any country really a "free" country? I think there's always a line.

      --
      John
    17. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      all you are saying is that because free countries are not 100% perfectly free, they are the same as countries who deny you your freedoms

      this is an incredibly moronic way to view the world and the concept of freedom

      look: you will never be 100% free, in any society made of human beings, ever. accept that

      and so because you are at 99%, 95%, or 90% freedom on society A, does not in any way mean your society is the same as society B, that is 20% or 10% or 5% free on the scale of political expression

      your'e one of those people who can't understand concepts except in terms of idealistic ways. and if you can find some way to nitpick how your realty is not 100% like your idealistic view, it's the same as nothing at all

      you're an idiot, you really are. and the shame is, there's a lot of gasbags out there like you who complain from the same stupid premise of reality not matching your idealism. IT NEVER WILL

      learn to criticize and think about your world from relative positions, not from the absolute position in your mind that will never exist. it means your thoughts and criticisms are useless

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    18. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      this an argument i hear a lot: "freedom better than despotism, but despotism better than chaos"

      however, much of chaos is just different ethnic groups wanting their own countries, in old world countries which are old empires fraying at the edges

      so my response to you is: perhaps the old empire should crumble in the name of freedom, rather than a strong man keeping the old empire together in the name of stability, no?

      the stability of the empire is an excuse used by the strongman. chechen bombers don't bomb moscow subways if moscow lets chechnya leave. but the strongman will use the bombings as an excuse to crackdown on all of russia, not just chechnya

      so i'm sorry: "freedom better than despotism, but despotism better than chaos"

      i don't buy the argument, it's a lie put forth by strongman, that you unfortunately believe, to your detriment

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    19. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by plover · · Score: 1

      Wow, that was a disturbingly hate-filled diatribe, with no point at all. Are you attacking me for pointing out something like "America isn't as free as you idealistically claim it to be"? All I said originally was "there are rules" and you jumped on me as if I was burning the Stars and Stripes at a NASCAR race.

      I'm in no way suggesting Belarus and the US are identical in terms of freedoms or restrictions placed on those freedoms. I am saying that you can't claim America is "ideologically free" when there are indeed limits on that freedom.

      The limits around ideas such as freedom are better defined by"areas", not "lines". But in conflict with this is the idea that our laws have defined fairness to be based on lines, not areas. Court cases push these boundaries around, claiming one particular activity is permitted while another is not. And different courts can give different results in similar cases, leaving the area looking a bit scarred at the end of the day. But no, our "free" area is still quite wide open in comparison to a dictatorship.

      I think the "freedom area" here in the USA is about as good and as big as they get, and is even quite well defined and protected by the Constitution. But there's always someone trying to change its boundaries in order to box out an unpopular opponent, to keep a particular minority opinion away from them. And there are people who are more than willing to abuse it completely for their own petty ends. I want them punished harshly, as they're the biggest threat to our freedoms.

      --
      John
    20. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      i am attacking you for only dealing from the position of your absolute idealism, rather than from the position of relative realism

      i know tons of people like you. all very loud, very dumb, and utterly without consequence, because the ivory tower from which you cast your judgments is not a viable or respectable perspective

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    21. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by karuna · · Score: 1

      Provide a better alternative if you can. In reality it is hard, very hard. The USSR was discontinued because people wanted freedom but it destroyed the economy and created widespread unemployment and poverty. Next to Belarus is my country, Latvia, and people are leaving it in droves to better European countries even though Latvians have democracy. It has failed to ensure economic prosperity and the freedom alone is not enough.

      It is easy for those who live in rich western countries that were developed with hard work of your forefathers and often with great social injustices like slavery or working conditions that were close to slavery. Belarus may have less political freedom but the life there isn't slavery.

      While the Belarus people should demand more freedom, they should learn more diplomatic ways to achieve it. First, they should understand how politics work and why their current protests are just a waste of time.

    22. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by karuna · · Score: 1

      I agree with you up to the point where you compare it with North Korea. It is not and you should know it. It is even better than China. Emotional feelings are not helping. It can only lead to another Bay of Pigs.

    23. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by plover · · Score: 1

      And my original reply was that I thought your idea of "i'd rather be poor and free than a wealthy slave" was naive and sloganesque. Now I realize it was simply spoken out of ignorance.

      Forgive me for trying to engage you in rational thought. I won't make that mistake again.

      --
      John
    24. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      well said

      i can't argue with you, as you know the subject far better than i

      however i would simply add the example of finland: latvia can build a strong economy. if finland can, why not latvia?

      i think you blame the economic conditions on some events that were contemporaneous, but not causative. although yes, there will be an extended social and economic hangover after emerging from the imperialist shell of ussr/ old russia. but it's like growth pangs, and being stuck between two very different social statuses, and still having a long way to go

      latvia should do its best to emulate finland, and become the home of the next nokia/ angry birds software publisher (rovio?)

      the future is bright. latvia is a gem of a country, nice towns and cities. people will live there gladly IF they can work there

      so latvia should do its best to steal software development companies from your nordic neighbors ;-)

      you just need a good economic policy, and latvia will be like ireland pre2008 real estate burst

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    25. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by karuna · · Score: 1

      Of course, Latvian people want economic prosperity. They have introduced the most liberal economic policies among all western countries. We low taxes, flat tax income tax, little regulations etc. It also spectacularly failed to increase standard of living. It only created social inequality. It only benefited some companies who exploited cheap workforce for a while. In average the Belarus economy was growing at a faster rate despite having completely opposite policies.

      It turns out the democratic countries requiring liberal economic policies were cheating. They all themselves gained wealth through protectionism in one way or another. You mentioned Finland which had a state controlled economy for a very long time.

      There is a book I suggest reading to everyone: 23 Things They don't Tell You About Capitalism by Ha-Joon Chang.

    26. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      So, the No True Scotsman fallacy to the rescue! My, isn't that useful! Where would Marxist thought be without it?

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    27. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      and i don't deny any of it. latvia just has to play that game even better. one thing they don't tell you about the evils of capitalism: nobody stays on top forever, there's always someone rising and someone falling

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    28. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by Walter+Carver · · Score: 1

      "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

      -- C.S. Lewis

    29. Re:Not that surprising from Belarus by royallthefourth · · Score: 1

      lmao batka is no "omnipotent moral busybody" he just happens to be a competent head of state with a strong enough nationalist streak that he won't let the EU shit all over his country. as if a robber baron (or any person of power) thinks himself to be immoral in the first place.

      go read a narnia, fuckko

  14. After 120 years is a telephone a human right yet? by Viol8 · · Score: 1

    What about a radio or TV?

    So whats so special about the internet?

    Crawl out of your basement and get in touch with the real world pal.

  15. Re:After 120 years is a telephone a human right ye by Viol8 · · Score: 1

    "The internet is special"

    No it isn't.

    "massive and two-way."

    So was CB Radio back in the day. Perhaps that should have been a human right too?

    Idiots who claim the internet should be a human right clearly have no idea about real human rights and where and how they're being abused or they wouldn't trivialise them int his way. A human right is not having your water polluted by industrial conglomerates or your land stolen by a corrupt government, its not about some middle class western kid being able to twitter BS to his friends.

  16. Re:After 120 years is a telephone a human right ye by RazzleFrog · · Score: 1

    The internet may not be a human right but it is unique in that the entry cost to making yourself heard to millions of people is almost nothing. CB Radio limited your message to a few dozen weirdos.

    There is nothing in history that compares to the scope and power of the internet.

  17. Silent protests by Taibhsear · · Score: 1

    'Silent Protests,' in which citizens gather in city squares, and clap in protest

    I do not think that word means what you think it means...

  18. That's why - Khrushchev by serbianheretic · · Score: 1

    And this my friends, is precisely what the anonymity on the internet is good. To protect us from the "big brother". During some speech in mid-50's (after Stalin's death), Nikita Khrushchev was criticizing stalinism. Someone from the audience said: "so why haven't you people in the Central Comitee said nothing against the abuses?". "Who said that?!" - yelled Khrushchev. Silence... "Who said that?!" - yelled Khrushchev again. Silence again... "That's why." - concluded Khrushchev.

  19. Re:After 120 years is a telephone a human right ye by Viol8 · · Score: 1

    "CB Radio limited your message to a few dozen weirdos."

    You think people who spend all day on farcebook or twitter are normal??

  20. Re:After 120 years is a telephone a human right ye by RazzleFrog · · Score: 1

    No but those are millions of weirdos :p

  21. History of protest in Belarus by juicegg · · Score: 1

    There is a lot more to these protests than just the silent demonstrations. The economy collapsed after the crooked 2010 elections. Prices of basic goods saw huge increases. For example, just few weeks ago drivers were blocking busy streets with their cars in protest against 100% increase in fuel prices. More info here

  22. Re:Sustainable Land Use Policies by karuna · · Score: 1

    By social traditions and way of living Belarus is very similar to other European countries. They certainly has less dependence on cars as they have greater social equality and developed public transportation. But it is also a flat and boring piece of land.

    Lukashenko period may indeed to turn out a blessing in disguise. Senseless privatization has destroyed the beauty of my country, Latvia. When I traveled around Europe, the best country for tourists was Slovenia because they didn't allow total privatization. Their state owned camping places and tourism infrastructure was well organized and efficient. In comparison, Austria was a big disappointment as many nice places were restricted with "Privat".