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Ask Slashdot: Am I Too Old To Learn New Programming Languages?
ProgramadorPerdido writes "I have been a developer for 25 years. I learned Basic, VB, C, FoxPro, Cobol, and Assembler, but the languages I used the most were Pascal and Delphi. I then concentrated on a now-non-mainstream language for 11 years, as it was used at work. One day I had the chance to move into Project Management and so I did for the last 2 years. Now, at almost 40 years old, I'm at a crossroad. On one side I realized developing is the thing I like best, while on the other side, the languages I'm most proficient with are not that hot on the market. So I came here looking for any advice on how to advance my career. Should I try to learn web development (html, xhtml, css, php, python, ruby)? Should I learn Java and/or C#? Or am I too old to learn and work a new language? Should I go back to PM work even if I do not like it that much? Any similar experiences?"
I'm 55, a programmer, and I've been out of work for two years. I've had plenty of interviews, but no job offers. Here's my take on all of this: I'm too old to be a programmer. I'll put my "management hat" on and tell you why:
1. I'm old. One 5 hour energy drink revvs up your basic 20 year old code monkey all day. I need a saline drip with caffeine in it all day to keep going.
2. I'm expensive. I have 30 years of experience in the 'biz and a masters degree in CS. I'm not cheap. You could hire two 25 year olds for what I'm asking.
3. (and what I consider to be my greatest failing in the corporate world) I've seen all the tricks. I've been exposed to every nasty little mindgame management has at it's disposal. And sometimes I have the bad manners to call people on it. This is called "having a bad attitude".
So when I compete against 20-somethings in the worst economy since 1929 (I hesitate to say the worst economy ever), I lose. I should have made the leap to management when I had the chance, not because I would have loved management (I would have had to manage assholes like me, after all ;), but because at 40 you have TWENTY YEARS LEFT. The years go by really, really fast. You should really start thinking about a soft place to land when you're 60 now, because if you aren't in line to be a VP or a Director you ain't gonna make it at this point.
The suggestion to "Follow Your Bliss" only works in an economy that's not run by sociopaths. Hell, it only works in a country that's not run by sociopaths. Strike one strike two. Tighten your belt, put as much money away as you can, and make sure you keep your health up. Because the era of "company loyalty" is over, COBRA for a family costs as much as your mortgage, and finding a new job is going to be a real challenge.
Other than that, have a nice day! :D
"If god did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him" --Voltaire
If you're still proficient with COBOL you can give ABAP a try since it's similar. There's a lot of SAP work around and, at least in my experience, the big corporate environment is willing to hire experienced developers.
English is not my first language. Corrections and suggestions are welcome.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Assembler_%28computer_programming%29#Related_terminology
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I firmly believe you're too old to learn the day you stop learning.
Never ever quite learning the latest and greatest in programming, to do any less is condemning ones own career path.
Having recently joined the ranks of older programmers I still find that I can completely crush the new kids by leveraging that vast experience I already have.
Dust off the learning hat and get back into the fight man, 40 isn't a time to lay down and die... last I heard 30 was the new 20 and 40 was the new 30... and we're all going to be broke in this economy so who cares in the end?
I'm about your age. My impression is that new learning is still possible, but it requires more time and effort. So I'd say it partially depends on how motivated you are.
If you think you might be too old, then you are.
Ask Slashdot: Am I Too Old To Learn New Programming Languages?
Barring extreme physical exertion and danger, you're never too old for anything. If you're too old to learn something new, you might as well lay down in your grave and wait for death on the grounds that adopting a fatalistic attitude toward new experiences basically ensures you're done with life. That's my opinion anyway. Seriously, if you can't do something new, what exactly are you looking forward to?
I do have an important question though: how did you come to begin programming? I am unfamiliar with what would have been available paths back in those days. Did you get a degree via courses in logic and mathematics? Trade school? Taught yourself? Mentored?
I believe Pascal is closest to a procedural language and Delphi is the object oriented equivalent? So that's a somewhat diverse start. Are you familiar with concepts like (but not limited to): closures, sets, Big O Notation and understand the difference between a framework and a library? These are things that I might not use daily coding Ruby and Java but I remember from school and I feel better prepare me for learning any new (or old) language. If you aren't familiar with these things, it might pay to consider taking refresher courses at a nearby college to brush up on them. I don't know how viable this suggestion is but on the grounds of learning new languages, it has proved invaluable to me in understanding why language creators made the choices they did.
Should I try to learn web development (html, xhtml, css, php, python, ruby)? Should I learn Java and/or C#?
Personally I would suggest Ruby on Rails with CSS for a solid UI. You're going to need to know concepts like RESTful interfaces and it might take some getting used to letting the Rails automagic do things for you but the resources are plentiful and free. It sounds like it will be totally out of your comfort zone and that's probably a good thing if you're up to the challenge.
Should I go back to PM work even if I do not like it that much?
In today's economy? Why not make two resumes: PM and Programmer. If PM skills pay the bills, hop on it and work on programming as a side hobby. If the right Programmer position comes up and the pay is good, consider it but don't set yourself up for failure or take too large a risk if your home/dependents/nestegg are at stake.
My work here is dung.
In WW-II Japanese air force promoted their combat aces to ranks so high they out ranked their base commanders. They kept assigning themselves most dangerous and glorious combat missions, eventually all of them died. But Japanese did have a few aces notching up dozens of kills. US, on the other hand, does not have any reaching even 10 kills. The moment a combat pilot notches up 5 and qualifies to be an ace, he is transferred to the training command and is made to teach those skills to a new crop of young pilots. Some of them eventually transferred to NASA test missions and flew research aircraft.
So though you love coding, switch to project management. I am speaking from experience. I loved coding, and stayed in programming for far too long. I am doing project management now. You can always code in your spare time, doing what you like.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
nope, even IBM still calls it "assembler" at times
for example http://publibfp.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr/download/asmr1020.pdf or http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/wmqv7/v7r0/index.jsp?topic=/com.ibm.mq.csqzal.doc/fg19060_.htm
you diaper wearing puppies can go off and make up your own rules if you want, but don't be surprised if we older and wiser suddenly beat you with our ear horn
Being "too old to learn" is mostly an excuse. Unless you have a brain injury of some description, or a brain disease, you're never too old to learn anything. It might take slightly longer, then again - it might not.
Nearing 40, I'm learning Verilog which is not merely another language, it's a hardware description language and although the syntax looks familiar to a language you write software with, how you use it is radically different. This has certain challenges, but there is no problem with actually *learning* it, nor some of the very big differences that "writing hardware" so to speak has compared with writing software. Also, while we had a slack period at work I made a start at learning Erlang, which looked like it had some useful applications for what we do, and had no particular problems learning it despite it being a functional language whereas everything I've done to date has been an imperative language.
In fact to learn a new language within the same family (for instance, if I were to learn Python) today I find it much easier and much faster than I did 20 years ago because depth of experience can help avoid the dead-ends, and we have much better tools which can also help us to learn faster.
This, by the way, applies to human languages. "I'm too old to learn a foreign language" is an excuse. "English speakers are bad at learning foreign languages" is an excuse. I started learning Spanish 3 years ago. Today, I'm at an advanced level and have even stood up in public and given talks in Spanish. I can think in Spanish and conduct my entire daily life in that language. I can even laugh at humorous programmes on Spanish TV, which proves that I'm getting to grip with it pretty well. Until 3 years ago I was monolingual so it's not that I'm getting a handy lift-up by knowing some other foreign language.
If you believe you're too old to learn it'll become a self-fulfilling prophecy and your brain will wither away.
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Hogwash. I didn't start working as a software developer until I was 50. I learned Java, Perl and PHP in a year or so. I already knew C and FORTRAN at that time. Since then I've taught myself Python, Javascript, Scala and Ruby. I've recently started Erlang.
A year later I taught my father C; he was in his mid 70's and wanted to right some software to do some statistical analysis of stock data.
Don't let these whippersnappers tell you you can't do it. The fact is that is they know it, it's easy. The stuff that is actually hard is the math, and since you went to school more 20-30 years ago you have a far better education in the fundamentals that count than they do.
NOW GET OFF MY LAWN.
I've been in the biz a long time. My observation is that you probably have to choose between doing what you like and money. If you like money more than personal work satisfaction, pick the management route. It's the better choice for us geezers finance-wise. But if you truly prefer coding, and money is secondary, then go for it. You may have to dumb-down your coding resume a bit, for "experience" works against you, and keep your asking price mellow. Only briefly mention your distant experience on your resume, they don't know or care what a DEC is.
Table-ized A.I.
I'm nigh on 58 and still a developer. I am content to keep writing code.
I tried being a PM and it amlost drove me into an early grave. It is not for me.
So I went back to developing.
The company where I worked went belly up two years ago. Sure it took me a while to get another job. Not for the reasons stated but many companies couldn't hack the 'I don't want to be a Manager' answer to the where do you see yourself in 5 years question.
Finally I got a job where they were happy with that answer.. sure I could earn a load more if I were willing to commute for 3hrs a day but those days are behind me.
In three or so years I'll call it a day and retire. I will be able to afford to do that because I saved loads in my 20's, 30's & 40's.
to the OP,
Stay with it. There will be a job somewhere for you. Somewhere that will appreciate your experience and honesty.
Good luck
I'm 66. In the last few years I've learned enough Python and PHP to do useful work, and learned Linux enough to get an LPI cert. Considering all these things are free to download, there's no barrier preventing you learning, except your own false belief that you are too old.
"Cock Up Your Beaver" does not mean what you think. This sig is intended to clog filters and annoy do-gooders
If you're familiar with Delphi, then C# should take about five minutes to pick up. It was designed by the same architect as Delphi, and you do almost everything in the same way. It just uses C syntax instead of pascal. But ha at being too old, my dad picked up Delphi in his 40s and it's his favorite for RAD. He still uses Delphi 7 (the last good one) for everything, and grumbles about there being no Mac version. "Use Lazarus, it's exactly the same" "No, too hard to use" "It's identical!" "No it's not". Then again, he's probably trolling, he was mocking my use of a smart phone "My phone makes calls and that's all a phone is for!" and then he bought a droid ;)
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
But. Try going in to a job interview and saying "No, I don't have 5 years of this language, but give me a week, some small changes to work on and access to google and I'll be able to program it as well as most of your other developers". It may be true, but it doesn't wash with HR people or project managers.
This is just as frustrating from the hiring side. I'd rather someone who can demonstrate problem solving skills and some general programming background than someone who has nothing else going for them but 5 years of experience in our primary language. But communicating this concept to HR and the recruiters is painful at best.
William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
Don't laugh. Last week I started learning Ruby and I forgot how to chew.