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How To Steal ATM PINs With a Thermal Camera

An anonymous reader writes "Researchers from UCSD have demonstrated how thermal imagery cameras can be used to steal customers' PINs (PDF) when you withdraw cash from ATMs. Their paper, entitled 'Heat of the Moment: Characterizing the Efficacy of Thermal Camera-Based Attacks', (PDF) discovered that plastic PIN pads were the best for retaining heat signatures showing which numbers (and in which order) were used by bank customers. Fortunately the methodology does not appear to have been used by criminals yet, but a third of people surveyed admit that they do not check ATMs for tampering before withdrawing cash."

157 comments

  1. Oh Sure, Academia Accepts THAT Paper by eldavojohn · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Their paper, entitled 'Heat of the Moment: Characterizing the Efcacy of Thermal Camera-Based Attacks' ...

    Oh sure everybody wants to show how easy it is to steal everyone else's PIN but when you release a paper detailing how to do it with X-rays and guarantee the target develops cancer and dies within a month leaving their account ripe for unnoticed pilfering then you've "gone too far"!

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Oh Sure, Academia Accepts THAT Paper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      And don't ever use Gamma Rays, you don't want the Hulk chasing you after you've pilfered his bank account.

    2. Re:Oh Sure, Academia Accepts THAT Paper by sycodon · · Score: 2

      Fortunately the methodology does not appear to have been used by criminals ye

      But they'll be sure to get on it right away now that they have been clued in.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    3. Re:Oh Sure, Academia Accepts THAT Paper by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Based on the relative costs(and sizes) of the existing visible-spectrum-camera-hidden-on-the-ATM technology and the available thermal imaging gear, I'm somewhat inclined to doubt any significant uptake.

      Even if you go fleabaying, a thermal imaging system up to the task will easily be north of $1,000, and the cheap seats are often rather bulky and don't exactly sip power. If you go with something handheld, the fact that many of them look very much unlike normal digital cameras will make you stand out a good deal.

      Your dinky little pinhole spycam, either from a skimmer-vendor or modified from a cheap cellphone or some chintzy perv-market 'security' camera is going to be at least a factor of ten cheaper, able to run much longer on batteries, and substantially smaller.

    4. Re:Oh Sure, Academia Accepts THAT Paper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good news, everyone! I've invented a device that will speak your PIN aloud in my voice!

    5. Re:Oh Sure, Academia Accepts THAT Paper by Eponymous+Hero · · Score: 1

      no, there will be a smartphone app for it soon.

      --
      insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
    6. Re:Oh Sure, Academia Accepts THAT Paper by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Not to mention anybody who has watched the news lately has seen that the threat at ATMs isn't some hacker nerd but a "Thug Life!"er sticking a gun in your ribs or bashing your head in with a rock and just taking the money after you have put in the pin.

      And has anyone else noticed that for the "Thug Life!"ers there is no such thing as robbery? There is murder with a cash bonus. We had a typical "Thug life!"er robbery in the next town over a couple of months ago, the "Thug Life!"er walks into a nail salon, blows away everyone in the place THEN goes for the til. Got something like $363 for 3 dead and 1 wounded.

      Frankly having a geek go to all that trouble to rob you with infrared would probably be refreshing since all I see anymore is someone blowing you away and then rifling through your pockets.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    7. Re:Oh Sure, Academia Accepts THAT Paper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, when they're all dead that's the only thing you can do. Now if only they were mostly dead instead....

    8. Re:Oh Sure, Academia Accepts THAT Paper by gorzek · · Score: 2

      Where do you live, Mogadishu?

  2. Touch typing defense by rwa2 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Hmm, I knew there was a reason that I rested all of my fingers uniformly across the keypad, gently caressing their every ridge and facet as I discreetly pumped out my digits into their PIN pad. Well, another reason, at least.

    Also I try to think about a completely different song than the one that corresponds to the letters that correspond to the numbers of my PIN, just to thwart any brainwave phreaking attacks as well.

    But still hoping we score some decent security measures out of this, like maybe a bank-issued gold card or something.

    1. Re:Touch typing defense by Herkum01 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I rested all of my fingers uniformly across the keypad, gently caressing their every ridge and facet as I discreetly pumped out my digits

      Have you considered a career writing Harlequin novels?

    2. Re:Touch typing defense by cyberchondriac · · Score: 2

      or, after you've put in your PIN and gotten your money or whatever, press a few more random keys.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    3. Re:Touch typing defense by nedlohs · · Score: 4, Funny

      Just set the keypad on fire.

    4. Re:Touch typing defense by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      I'm not sure whether I just read a method to obscure your PIN number from thermal cameras, or a description of one of your sexual exploits.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    5. Re:Touch typing defense by franoreilly · · Score: 2

      Makes sense. Even though I cover my typing hand with my other hand, I always add a few more fake keypresses so that any camera can't make a rough guess, judging by the quadrant of the image showing slight movement, which key was actually pressed. So now I have to do this for infra red coverage also. Great.

      --
      -- --- Learn language vocabulary with mnemonics: http://www.memorista.com
    6. Re:Touch typing defense by Not_Wiggins · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It looks likely you were mostly joking (so, that makes me feel equally bad about admitting this).
      But, when putting in my PIN, I typically rest several fingers on different numbers, move my hand around, and punch my PIN in that way, obscuring what I'm doing (not the typical one finger, one press approach).

      For me, it was about making it tough for someone with a video camera set up to watch the ATM to figure out what my PIN is based on finger movement alone.

      I suppose to that end, would getting the heat signature really be that superior to having a video camera set up with a telephoto lens?
      And if we were ever worried about heat signature, wouldn't simply wearing gloves defeat this "potential attack?"

      Seems someone has figured out a complex way of collecting PINs.

      Why not set up a loop of wire and, based on the different lengths of connection between electricity that flows from pressed keys to the processor, infer which key is pressed?

      Right... it would cost more in time, money, and effort than one could make simply waiting for someone to walk up and rob with a gun.

      --
      Diplomacy is the art of saying, "Nice doggie!" until you can find a rock.
    7. Re:Touch typing defense by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Sounds like both. He has a thing for ATMs especially when they vibrate when discharging money.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    8. Re:Touch typing defense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This works for elevator buttons too!

    9. Re:Touch typing defense by need4mospd · · Score: 1

      Hmm, I knew there was a reason that I rested all of my fingers uniformly across the keypad, gently caressing their every ridge and facet as I discreetly pumped out my digits into their PIN pad.

      Do you do so while wearing a robe and wizard hat?

    10. Re:Touch typing defense by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      But, when putting in my PIN, I typically rest several fingers on different numbers, move my hand around, and punch my PIN in that way, obscuring what I'm doing (not the typical one finger, one press approach).

      I do it too -- I start at the top row, one finger per button, and then slide my hand down the keypad making contact with every button but only putting pressure on the one button that needs pushing. I repeat the process for each digit but make sure to slide my hand across the entire keypad each time. It didn't take much practice to get good at it, it still takes a little bit longer than just punching the numbers in directly, but not enough to matter.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    11. Re:Touch typing defense by sconeu · · Score: 2

      I picked up this habit after working in a classified area with a cipher lock.
      After I'd enter the cipher, I'd swipe my fingers over all the buttons to make it harder for a potential bad guy to analyze the wear/fingerprint patterns on the lock.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    12. Re:Touch typing defense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Song, eh. 8675(309)?

    13. Re:Touch typing defense by cdrguru · · Score: 2

      Right... it would cost more in time, money, and effort than one could make simply waiting for someone to walk up and rob with a gun.

      Never forget that any sort of ATM attack is anonymous and impersonal, whereas holding up someone with a gun means you personally are standing there in front of someone with a gun in your hand.

      What the Internet has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt is that ordinary people who wouldn't think of shoplifting will go to incredible lengths to steal stuff on the Internet where they are anonymous and the action is impersonal. Someone who would never break into a house in person will break into a computer with impunity, even to the point of advertising their exploits.

      I would say that there are plenty of people that if they could engage in ATM skimming and know they don't have to ever confront a human throughout the whole process they would do it, even to the point of spending more money than they are likely to get in return. ATM skimming kits are pretty good sellers on the Internet, if you know where to shop, because they are a gateway to anonymous, impersonal money.

    14. Re:Touch typing defense by tom17 · · Score: 1

      Naaah,
      1,2,3,4(5,6,7,8,9,10,11,Twe-ee-e-ee-e-elve!)

    15. Re:Touch typing defense by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      I think the idea is that after you leave the machine, four[1] of the keys will be glowing. The brightest one is the number you pressed last, and the dimmest is the one you pressed first.

      [1] Assuming your PIN is made up of four unique numbers. If your pin contains repeated numbers, I guess it makes it more difficult to determine the order of them.

    16. Re:Touch typing defense by idontgno · · Score: 1

      I say we take off and nuke the site from across the street. It's the only way to be sure.

      -- Security Engineering Officer Ellen Ripley

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    17. Re:Touch typing defense by Cr0t · · Score: 0

      My one year old daughter does that for me.

    18. Re:Touch typing defense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [2] Unless your pin contains 1 number repeated 4 times.

    19. Re:Touch typing defense by black+soap · · Score: 1

      48 permutations, assuming 4 known, unique digits. 36 permutations, assuming 3 digits, not knowing which is unique.

    20. Re:Touch typing defense by sam0737 · · Score: 1

      I usually keep hitting the keypad randomly when it's preparing the cash, for fun. Now that's a reason for me to keep doing it!

    21. Re:Touch typing defense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right... it would cost more in time, money, and effort than one could make simply waiting for someone to walk up and rob with a gun.

      Sure, for one or two nights.

      Better to have a covert mean of getting PINs from everyone using the ATM and drain 100's of accounts the next week.

    22. Re:Touch typing defense by Ced_Ex · · Score: 1

      What about all the other number keys you end up pressing when you define how much money you're depositing or withdrawing?

      All this is making the simple task of stealing so complicated. Gypsy kids just hang around the ATM, wait for the withdraw screen to show up, run in, quickly press the auto denomination of the highest value and wait for the money to start spitting out before they grab and dash. Thermal cameras have got nothing on those kids.

      --
      Live forever, or die trying.
    23. Re:Touch typing defense by karnal · · Score: 1

      My ATM makes me use the touchscreen after entering the PIN on the number pad; so I guess I'm screwed.

      --
      Karnal
    24. Re:Touch typing defense by anubi · · Score: 1

      ATM skimming kits are pretty good sellers on the Internet, if you know where to shop,

      That, my friend, is scary.

      If the ATM programmer offered me the option of morse code, I wonder how easy that would be to crack.

      Years ago, I configured my home security system to arm/disarm via the doorbell. I send it morse code to unlock it. Only the first press will actually ring the bell. Subsequent presses issued before timeout are interpreted ty the ATMEL microcontroller as morse code and are not routed to the bell. For all intents and purposes, it looks and works exactly like a doorbell, only it changes color to indicate system state.

      If I were given the option to morse my PIN onto the "5" key, I would go for it.

      Very few of us know Morse code, so this obviously isn't for everybody. For those of us who do, it could offer an additional layer of security by obscurity. It could be cracked, but it would likely discourage the thief by diverting him to easier prey.

      --
      "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

    25. Re:Touch typing defense by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Seems like a risky thing to do. If you use a cloned card in a shop you will probably be on CCTV. If you use it on the internet then I suppose you can pay for some services (hiding behind a proxy or Tor) but any physical goods need to be delivered to an address. Most people don't have an address they can use to receive their ill-gotten gains.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  3. Now get back in line. by suso · · Score: 3, Insightful

    but a third of people surveyed admit that they do not check ATMs for tampering before withdrawing cash.

    A person checking an ATM for tampering may look like they are tampering with an ATM. Now get back in line.

    1. Re:Now get back in line. by rwa2 · · Score: 2

      Word. Not to mention that most ATM skimmers are very difficult to detect, and are often indistinguishable from some of the regular "bling" that an ATM might have adorning their card slot.

      But I guess it's worthwhile to attempt to rip it out anyway and see what happens :-P

      http://images.google.com/search?q=ATM+skimmer&hl=en&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&biw=1270&bih=810

    2. Re:Now get back in line. by The+Moof · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not to mention that the average person likely has no idea what a card skimmer looks like when compared to the card reader on an ATM.

    3. Re:Now get back in line. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is what I was thinking. I actually *do* look for tampering, but even after seeing examples of card skimmers, I have doubts of my own ability to actually detect one.

    4. Re:Now get back in line. by GTRacer · · Score: 1

      Am I alone in not using ATMs? I prolly wouldn't know if a skimmer had been installed because I almost never visit ATMs. I mean, in any given year I can count on one hand the number of ATM withfrawals and checks written on one, maybe two hands. I stopped carrying cash years ago and if I truly need some, most of the time a POS cashout is closer than the bank, and doesn't charge a fee.

      To be fair, I *do* use the ATM whenever I need to deposit checks, which is rarely enough. All that said, if I saw mysterious ATM usage on the bank website, I could almost certainly refute it with my non-history.

      --
      Defending IP by destroying access to it? That makes sense, RIAA/MPAA. Go to the corner until you can play nice!
    5. Re:Now get back in line. by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Interesting

      but a third of people surveyed admit that they do not check ATMs for tampering before withdrawing cash.

      Two thirds of them do? I find that very hard to believe.

      --
      No sig today...
    6. Re:Now get back in line. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention that while newer ATM machines are using funkier read-slots to deter skimmers, in the long run they're just training users to accept any damn weird-looking card-goes-here-ish thing.

    7. Re:Now get back in line. by kevinNCSU · · Score: 4, Interesting

      After looking at the pictures of scanners in this ( Consumerist Security Briefing from Gawker) I don't think I could tell even if someone put 4 ATM machines in front of me and told me one of them had a skimmer, pick it out. These things fit so perfectly over the card reader it seems near impossible to tell without pulling out a knife and seeing if you can get anything to pop off, and I don't think that'd make most places happy.

    8. Re:Now get back in line. by gorzek · · Score: 1

      The key word being "admit." I would suspect at least 90% of people don't actually look for ATM tampering, but in having it brought up are too embarrassed to admit to it.

    9. Re:Now get back in line. by advocate_one · · Score: 2

      I'd have modded you up if /. hadn't changed the stoopid interface yet again and resulted in the moderate button going missing in action...

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    10. Re:Now get back in line. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it's well-made, a card skimmer looks just like a card reader.

    11. Re:Now get back in line. by Sabriel · · Score: 1

      I spotted only half the skimmers, and missed the cameras. Cunning little monsters. Glad I don't use ATMs often. Thanks for the link.

  4. Nothing is safe by mfh · · Score: 1

    There is no level of applied security that can thwart applied freedom.

    --
    The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
  5. Wallet corner defense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I use the corner of my wallet to to press the keys, let's see them work with that.

    1. Re:Wallet corner defense by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      Good idea. Also, stylo of your mobile. Mod the coward up.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    2. Re:Wallet corner defense by Heed00 · · Score: 1

      *snatch* Got your wallet! *runs away*

      --
      Thought thinks itself.
    3. Re:Wallet corner defense by LighterShadeOfBlack · · Score: 2

      Except you already had your wallet out anyway to get to your cash card. And now your card is in the machine and you probably have no cash in it if you're at the ATM, so now they've got a wallet with things the average thief can't make use of, except maybe a condom or two. And given that this guy is posting on /. that condom has probably been there for 5+ years and is no longer effective. In nine months justice will be served. Take that, thief!

      --
      Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
    4. Re:Wallet corner defense by Pope · · Score: 1

      The what of my what?

      I have a touchscreen, you insensitive clod!

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    5. Re:Wallet corner defense by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      I am a proud owner of Samsung i730

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_SCH-i730

      It is hard to overestimate ubiquitous practicality of a stylus. It's uses vary from direct use and clearing wax from one's ear.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
  6. Slashdot is advertising thermal imaging cameras... by kotku · · Score: 2

    when I viewed this story. Conflict of interest here?

    --
    The bikini - security through obscurity since 1943
  7. Splinter Cell... by neokushan · · Score: 2

    They did this in Splinter Cell YEARS ago.

    --
    +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    1. Re:Splinter Cell... by wildstoo · · Score: 1

      That's the first thing I thought of too. I remember using my Thermal Imaging goggles in Splinter Cell to steal door codes after watching someone else use the keypad.

      Did the guys at UCSD play Splinter Cell? Did they thank Ubisoft in their paper? ;)

    2. Re:Splinter Cell... by ironjaw33 · · Score: 1

      They did this in Splinter Cell YEARS ago.

      After doing that in game, I remember thinking that there was no way this would really work. I was hoping that Mythbusters would tackle it but it looks like academia beat them to it.

    3. Re:Splinter Cell... by Kunedog · · Score: 1

      And in Cyberia years before that.

    4. Re:Splinter Cell... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you! I've been trying to remember that name since I saw the title! If I had a current slashdot account and mod points, you would be +1

    5. Re:Splinter Cell... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and on the first episode of 'Max Headroom.

  8. This was done on by geeza81 · · Score: 2

    The Real Hustle on BBC3 to open a safe in a jewellery shop. How they got into the jewellery shop was pretty genius too.

    1. Re:This was done on by StillNeedMoreCoffee · · Score: 1

      I don't know if that is where I saw that, but yes the technique has appeared in movies (years ago) This is life imitating art.

  9. Easy to Avoid by tucara · · Score: 5, Funny

    Just make sure you add a bunch of heat on all the number keys before you leave to mess up their analysis. I recommend urinating on the keypad to get a good even distribution.

    1. Re:Easy to Avoid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      this is why the keypad is always fucked up and smells when I go get cash for my weed.

    2. Re:Easy to Avoid by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      When I'm typing in my PIN I do a fancy jig with my fingers, and I use my fingernails - admittedly to avoid getting the ick from the ATM on my fingers - but that should help keep the thermal signatures down as well.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    3. Re:Easy to Avoid by S.O.B. · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Urine is likely cleaner than what you normally find on ATMs. So you're doing a public service by "rinsing off" the keypad.

      --
      Some of what I say is fact, some is conjecture, the rest I'm just blowing out my ass...you guess.
    4. Re:Easy to Avoid by scorp1us · · Score: 1

      You joke, but there is a scene in American Treasure II where they fingerprint a keyboard and deduce the password using letters hit and a dictionary attack. One shift or caps-lock key use and it blows the solution space exponentially high.

      I am waiting for ATMs to have NFC support. That way, my card and/or phone is needed so that I don't have to even touch that machine.

      --
      Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
    5. Re:Easy to Avoid by bughunter · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of the apocryphal story of the D&D munchkin running a dwarven thief whose dungeon lockpicking strategy is to piss in the lock and then come back in a year or two after the mechanism had corroded...

      --
      I can see the fnords!
    6. Re:Easy to Avoid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a dwarven thief whose dungeon lockpicking strategy is to piss in the lock and then come back in a year or two after the mechanism had corroded

      His short legs would be a rather distinct disadvantage though.

    7. Re:Easy to Avoid by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      if you find you can't urinate, rub one out on the keypad

    8. Re:Easy to Avoid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was National Treasure I.

    9. Re:Easy to Avoid by Pope · · Score: 1

      I dunno, it'd feel like I was cheating on my oven.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    10. Re:Easy to Avoid by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      not an issue for me, my microwave is a dependent ("Mike" on 1040A) and so I don't discuss sex life

    11. Re:Easy to Avoid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Urine is likely cleaner than what you normally find on ATMs. So you're doing a public service by "rinsing off" the keypad.

      Only on /. does the advice of urinating on an ATM receive a *Score:4, Insightful*.

    12. Re:Easy to Avoid by bughunter · · Score: 1

      As would be his lack of immunity to one of my DM's favorite thief griefing critters: Rot Grubs.

      --
      I can see the fnords!
    13. Re:Easy to Avoid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just make sure you add a bunch of heat on all the number keys before you leave to mess up their analysis. I recommend urinating on the keypad to get a good even distribution.

      Urine is likely cleaner than what you normally find on ATMs. So you're doing a public service by "rinsing off" the keypad.

      Get me Mythbusters! Stat!

      (in seriousness, they did one where they found a toilet seat was cleaner than a kitchen floor),

    14. Re:Easy to Avoid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not just train a freezing cold penguin to waddle around behind you wherever you go and just give them a quick hug before drawing out money?

      Many of the world's problems stem from what people do with their money so a quick hug with a penguin will also put people in a far more caring frame of mind when deciding what to do with their cash.

    15. Re:Easy to Avoid by stoofa · · Score: 1

      Anonymous Coward? Doh! Now, if I'd given a penguin a quick hug before posting then they might have spotted that I wasn't logged in and done that penguin thing that they do, whatever it is that penguins do to remind you that you haven't logged in on /.

  10. Thermal imaging? That stuff is fun and expensive.. by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Even as a usually law-abiding citizen, I might be tempted to steal that camera thingy if i find it. The fact that it was put there by criminals would greatly reduce my pangs of conscience ;-)

    --
    C - the footgun of programming languages
  11. So as far as i understood. by drolli · · Score: 1

    Tampering is not needed for taking a thermal photo as the next in line.

  12. secure NFC transactions NOW! by markhahn · · Score: 2

    this is an even better reason we need secure NFC transactions (with your mobile) asap. it's absurd to be typing a by-definition-weak password into an unauditable terminal. why hasn't some bank hasn't noticed that at least early adopters would pay for the privilege of paying securely?

    then again, if banks simply secured their terminals, much of the hacked-ATM problem would disappear. yes, toilet-like stalls for each ATM...

    1. Re:secure NFC transactions NOW! by TubeSteak · · Score: 2

      this is an even better reason we need secure NFC transactions (with your mobile) asap.

      Near field communication is only as secure as the size and sensitivity of the nearest antenna.
      Just because your mobile phone has a weak antenna doesn't mean a malicious actor has to limit himself.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:secure NFC transactions NOW! by rhsanborn · · Score: 2

      Because it's a password, and last I checked, banks do not take responsibility for transactions that involved the PIN. They consider it the consumer's responsibility to maintain the secrecy of their PIN, regardless of it's weakness. As a result, the banks have relatively little exposure to PIN based attacks, and therefore have little incentive to spend any money making it more secure.

    3. Re:secure NFC transactions NOW! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right. If the banks can trick the courts into putting the responsibility on the customer, they will. Think "bank fraud" vs "identity theft" for example. Or the new chip bank cards with the flawed protocol that lets criminals do a debit transaction without any PIN.

    4. Re:secure NFC transactions NOW! by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      it's absurd to be typing a by-definition-weak password into an unauditable terminal.

      A hacked terminal isn't enough to break card security, obviously, the whole point is that you need both the card and the PIN. Merely having the PIN isn't enough. Modern cards can't be cloned unless you live somewhere still in the stone age, like the USA ;)

    5. Re:secure NFC transactions NOW! by quacking+duck · · Score: 1

      This is partly why even though my credit card has a chip, it does not have a PIN. The other reason is my issuing bank didn't have the infrastructure set up to handle CC PINs when they started shipping chipped replacement cards out, but considering at least one guy's already been denied a disputed charge because his CC company claims the system is secure and it MUST have been him entering the PIN, I'll just keep signing my CC-paid bills for as long as I can.

    6. Re:secure NFC transactions NOW! by babywhiz · · Score: 1

      heh. I can totally see the hookups in THOSE types of stalls....maybe not quite 'mile high club' worthy....but still an interesting hookup. Wonder what the tapes from those security cameras would look like?

    7. Re:secure NFC transactions NOW! by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Near field communication is only as secure as the size and sensitivity of the nearest antenna.
      Just because your mobile phone has a weak antenna doesn't mean a malicious actor has to limit himself.

      Yes, screw NFC - we would be a lot better off with 2D barcodes displayed on the phone and a camera on the POS terminal. If you need 2-way communication (which I doubt is really necessary) then just use the camera on the phone and a small (e-ink?) display on the POS terminal. Bonus in that no new tech on the consumer end is needed, every smart phone currently on the market has all you need to pull it off.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    8. Re:secure NFC transactions NOW! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Encryption bro.

    9. Re:secure NFC transactions NOW! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      True, but accepting card payments is far more risky than simply buying stuff on a stolen card. To get any return you have to provide a bank account for them to pay the money into, and an address to send billing information to.

      People have tried this sort of thing in the past with premium rate phone lines. They stole mobile and then set up a rig to dial their premium rate number over and over again. Naturally they were caught pretty quickly once the phone company started getting complaints.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  13. train my cold blooded pet snake by schlachter · · Score: 1

    this is why i need to train my cold blooded pet snack to enter my pin for me!

    --
    My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
    1. Re:train my cold blooded pet snake by Daetrin · · Score: 1

      this is why i need to train my cold blooded pet snack to enter my pin for me!

      I would say something about the amount of time wasted by repeatedly training something that's going to be consumed in short order, but i'm more squicked out by the idea of keeping your snacks as pets.

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
    2. Re:train my cold blooded pet snake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      mmmm pet snack.....

  14. The Efficient Method by syntap · · Score: 3, Informative

    Isn't it cheaper to simply mug the ATM user after they are done and take cash while out of sight of the ATM machine's own camera? You'd have to do that anyway to get the card from them. Why get all technical?

    1. Re:The Efficient Method by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 2

      The common method is using an ATM skimmer to copy the card, and a camera to record typing in of the code. No mugging necessary. Sometimes the keypad is faked too.

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
    2. Re:The Efficient Method by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 1

      Except with a card skimmer, you don't - just make a replica card using the captured information and use the observed PIN combination.

      --
      Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
      altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
    3. Re:The Efficient Method by PPH · · Score: 1

      But now you can hit them over the head with the thermal camera.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    4. Re:The Efficient Method by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is that to say that most cards where you are are magnetic stripe, without a chip?
      Around here, the banks started putting chips in debit cards around 10 years ago, IIRC, and now I don't think you get new cards without them.
      There have still been some demonstrated attacks, but mostly involving MITM, or targeting the magnetic stripe that's still there for compatibility.

    5. Re:The Efficient Method by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      1) You're limited to the 20$ the tightwad took out.
      2) You would have to be able to mug them over and over again until caught
      3) Likely the charge is less if you don't actually have to threaten anyone with a knife or gun.
      4) You just need the number not the card, but even if you do need it, you can secretly steal it, make a copy and even return it.
      5) Its way cooler.

    6. Re:The Efficient Method by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, if you mug someone, all you get is the money he or she has on them. If you get the PIN and make a replicard, you can wipe out his or her savings.

      Second, physically mugging a person is a different crime, and likely punished more severely.

      Third, when you mug someone, you are visible, the person can describe you, the victim could pull out a gun on you, someone else could pull a gun on you, you might have the bad luck of a police officer passing by, etc. It is safer. Plus, with the camera trick the victim is not on notice about the breach and you have time to clean out the account.

  15. Touch more than 4 digits. Probelm solved. by MindCrusher · · Score: 1

    As I cover my hand to hide the numbers I always touch more than the four digits whenever I input my PIN as I center my hand on the keypad. Most of the time I also fake pressing some digits by keeping my finger onto them. I never thought of the thermal way to recover PIN numbers but I think I am safe.

    1. Re:Touch more than 4 digits. Probelm solved. by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      Or you could have just used the tip of the pen or stylo from your mobile.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
  16. Re:Slashdot is advertising thermal imaging cameras by Nadaka · · Score: 1

    Google context sensitive advertising at work.

    They probably also advertise ski masks on stories about bank robbery.

  17. Re:Slashdot is advertising thermal imaging cameras by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Targeted advertising!

  18. What good is the pin? by ThorGod · · Score: 1

    If I'm the only one with the card?

    --
    PS: I don't reply to ACs.
    1. Re:What good is the pin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they have your card because there is a skimmer installed over the card slot

    2. Re:What good is the pin? by srobert · · Score: 1

      Well now that we have your PIN we can just knock you over the head and take your card. Before we had to kidnap and torture you to get you to reveal the PIN. This is so much easier. Who says that technology isn't improving our lives?

    3. Re:What good is the pin? by hellkyng · · Score: 1

      Because shortly you will not be the only one with the card. As others mentioned there is a skimmer attached somewhere on the ATM. This reads the data contained on the magnetic stripe of your card and records. It may transmit this data via bluteooth to a local attacker, or store it locally. Skimmers usually can contain anywhere from 7-10,000 cards on them roughly.

      Once this is accomplished the attacker will then either sell the data online, or begin creating his own fake credit cards. This process involves purchasing blanks, which look like plain white cards, and reloading your mag stripe onto it. They may be more sophisticated as well but that gets more expensive. Then its off to the local big box retailer to buy a few TVs courtesy of you!

      ATMs are the obvious case as well, this can be easily done in gas pumps as well...

    4. Re:What good is the pin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I'm the only one with the card?

      In case you are not aware, there are groups out there that skim your card at the ATM or gas pump sort of like this.

      Then the skimmers make a clone of the card's mag-strip (not the imprinted number) with a dummy card and with your PIN and the cloned card in hand, they go to an ATM, put in the cloned card, type in your PIN and withdraw some more money (or go to a gas station and make a "free" fill up or any other venue where there isn't anyone to scrutinize the clone card and relies on just the PIN for ID).

  19. Re:Slashdot is advertising thermal imaging cameras by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Slashdot has ads?

  20. Was on The Real Hustle a few weeks ago by DJRikki · · Score: 1

    On BBC iPlayer, they did a con involving a safe keypad and a FLIR thermal camera to show the heat on the keypad.

  21. Equipment cooling by PPH · · Score: 1

    I'd never heard of this method of attack until now. But it might explain why some of my bank's ATMs seem to have a high volume of cooling air blasting through any cracks and openings in the machine. Metal keys as well.

    There was an article in a recent electronics magazine about building a code entry keypad that scrambles the digit positions between each entry attempt. This would make filming the keyboard difficult if one were to make the digit displays hard to see other than straight on. It would cause problems for people who enter their PIN based upon positional memory rather than looking at the numbers.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Equipment cooling by jfuredy · · Score: 2

      Yes, these keypads have been in use for at least 10 years. You press a button to activate the keypad, and it randomly places the digits onto the pad so they're in a different place each time. After you successfully enter your code all of the numbers disappear. It certainly makes it slower to enter your PIN, but it also makes it impossible to surreptitiously determine your PIN.

    2. Re:Equipment cooling by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      It also makes it impossible for blind people to enter the PIN, so probably violates Disability Discrimination legislation. Keypads usually have a dimple on the No 5 button, and a blind person can figure out where the other buttons are from that.

    3. Re:Equipment cooling by quacking+duck · · Score: 1

      Take a page from the iPhone's touchscreen accessibility mode. When you move a finger over an element, it reads it out. Obviously you don't want it read aloud so others can hear, but this would be a good use of most of my bank's ATMs audio-out jack.

      Okay yes, then the criminals hack or replace the audio jack with their own. I assume Disability Discrimination laws don't allow fully-abled people to use features disabled ones can't (translation: blind people must be able to access new, more secure features, otherwise the 90%+ of the population who aren't blind aren't allowed to use it either), so maybe we just go back to face-to-face tellers.

  22. What about ambient temperature? by chiph · · Score: 1

    Right now in Texas, we're hitting over 104F in the afternoons, several degrees higher than body temperature. Would the buttons be cooled by people touching them?

    1. Re:What about ambient temperature? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      You really have ATMs operating in 104F environments? More likely there's an AC unit right above the thing blasting cold air on it.

    2. Re:What about ambient temperature? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You really have ATMs operating in 104F environments? More likely there's an AC unit right above the thing blasting cold air on it.

      Doubtful. {Big ATM manufacturer that I work for} have ATMs for extremely hot (eg in the Middle East/North Africa) and cold (eg Arctic circle parts of Norway) climates. The colder ones have heated pinpads. All that is needed is to roll these out as standard.

    3. Re:What about ambient temperature? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      The issue isn't that the ATMs can't handle the heat -- I've worked with the kiosks myself and know how they're rated -- the issue is that PEOPLE can't handle the heat, so ATMs are usually placed in locations more comfortable to humans. However, I know that drive-through ATMs are used in Texas, so he's probably on to something for those.

  23. Why aren't these things obselete? by geekmux · · Score: 1

    Is it just me, or does anyone else tire over stories of ATM skimming/tampering? I guess my main point here is who the hell still uses an ATM anymore?

    It's probably been at least 6 months since I've stepped in front of one. I can withdraw up to $100 at just about any store I go into when I use my debit card(multiple times a day too), and since there seems to be a rather large void of evidence regarding tampering of debit terminals inside stores and banks, the most obvious solution seems to be the answer here.

    And if I find myself in need of more than a few hundred dollars in cash(cash? what's that?) on any given day, then I go to the most secure place to get it; the actual bank.

    In today's cashless society, I still struggle to find why ATMs haven't gone the way of the pay phone yet. Perhaps it's because a good portion of banking revenue is still generated off their ripoff fees for transactions? Chances are greed is in the answer there somewhere.

    1. Re:Why aren't these things obselete? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's actually quite a bit of evidence of card reader tampering in stores and fuel stations. Just go google "grocery store card reader tampering" or "gas station card reader tampering"

      In a world where the "station attendant" has pretty much vanished past 10PM, the gas stations are probably the easiest targets.

    2. Re:Why aren't these things obselete? by Asic+Eng · · Score: 1

      I think your experience is probably in the US? Being able to get cash back from the store is not unheard of in other countries, but it's a lot less common than in the US. Also card payments are less common in other countries, usually cash is preferred. (On average it's a lot quicker, plus many people prefer not to leave a record of every little purchase they make.)

      As for withdrawal fees - my German bank (DKB) lets me withdraw money anywhere in the world using my visa card, and they swallow the withdrawal fee. (They don't charge for the account either and pay interest on my savings - it's a pretty good deal.) Very convenient when you are traveling, and I'm getting rather good exchange rates as well.

    3. Re:Why aren't these things obselete? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What works for you doesn't work for everybody. I -detest- debit cards and actually do not have one. (Yes, this means I'm one of those 'deadbeats' that uses credit but never carries a monthly balance.)

      I'd rather not have every minor transaction in life down to the last can of Pepsi tracked in a database somewhere (whether there is any real incentive for somebody to abuse this or not). I hit up ATMs for -large- amounts of cash at a time ($200 or more) and have anonymous spending money for a couple of weeks. I prefer handling certain transactions in cash (the best example is dining out) because I can drop the cash and go as soon as the check arrives (instead of waiting for a couple more cycles of the waitress coming around to take my credit card and then return it after processing).

      Cash is by no means dead.

    4. Re:Why aren't these things obselete? by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      I hit up ATMs for -large- amounts of cash at a time ($200 or more) and have anonymous spending money for a couple of weeks

      you must be single. Married with children, I can pull $400 out of an ATM and have it gone in days.

    5. Re:Why aren't these things obselete? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can withdraw up to $100 at just about any store I go into when I use my debit card(multiple times a day too), and since there seems to be a rather large void of evidence regarding tampering of debit terminals inside stores and banks...

      In store debit terminal tampering, here you go: http://www.bendbulletin.com/article/20110512/NEWS0107/105120331/

    6. Re:Why aren't these things obselete? by Pope · · Score: 1

      Is it just me, or does anyone else tire over stories of ATM skimming/tampering? I guess my main point here is who the hell still uses an ATM anymore?

      Yes, it's just you. Judging by the lines I see for the ATMs at the bank on the main floor of my office building, cash is far from dead. Just because YOU don't use it doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    7. Re:Why aren't these things obselete? by Worthless_Comments · · Score: 2

      Because drug dealers don't take plastic.

  24. Fingers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good thing I do have cold dead fingers so they can't actually pry my money out of them.

  25. Or you can be flat broke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't need to worry either. I have a feeling that anyone accessing my account would feel sorry for me, and might even be inclined to make a deposit instead of a withdrawal.

  26. Easily solved by banks, ATM makers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Making a touchscreen keypad mandatory should prevent this, and for added bonus present a random order of the numbers on the touch screen each time.

  27. Re:Thermal imaging? That stuff is fun and expensiv by Arlet · · Score: 1

    The camera wouldn't be near the ATM. Someone behind you in line would take the camera out of their pocket, and take a picture of the keypad you just touched.

  28. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For letting the criminal know that they have another option to steal our money. Now We have to carry a Dust can that we have to turn upside down and spray it cold air to wipe it down.

  29. Score one for moderate OCD by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    I can't stand to touch those PIN pads. Keys or gloves (in winter).

  30. Worse yet, the chip cards by dontmakemethink · · Score: 1

    These cards with 'security chips' are a much greater risk. After entering your PIN, you must wait with the card sticking halfway out of the terminal pad while the transaction proceeds, during which time nobody guards their card. Who needs a heat camera when you can just peep over at someone entering their pin in the grocery line, snag their neatly exposed card, and drain their account at the nearest ATM? You can even yank it before the transaction completes to leave more money in the account! It's one thing that the pin pads are highly exposed, but to make the card itself vulnerable to easy theft is really ridiculous, especially in the name of security.

    --

    War as we knew it was obsolete
    Nothing could beat complete denial
    - Emily Haines
  31. Max Headroom by John+Bayko · · Score: 1

    When I saw this done on Max Headroom, I was skeptical that it could work. Not because a regular news camera had an "infra-red" mode, I expected that could happen (and some do, just not enough to be heat sensitive yet), but I thought the keys would cool down too fast. Good to know how scientifically accurate a show about a simulated human infecting the world's computer networks was.

  32. Scramble the numbers on the buttons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Back in the 80's I worked at a place where you needed to enter a PIN to open a side door. The keypad had a shield around the top and sides, the keys were back lit with nixie tubes that were below the surface about 0.5" -> 1" such that you had to be looking pretty much directly into them to see the numbers. You walked up, hit a button, the digits lit up and which button was which number was scrambled so that even if somebody saw the pattern of buttons you pressed, they still could not use it to gain access. It made it a PITA as you had to actually remember your code and not rely on muscle memory after a while. This was 80's technology, why can't ATMs use something like that? Ah yes, the customers would complain it's too hard to remember 4 digits. Must make it easier for the customers and thief's.

  33. Extend your PIN at CapitalOne by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I accidentally typed some extra characters at a CapitalOne ATM once while taking money from my CapitalOne account and the ATM took it. I tried at a couple other CapitalOne ATMs and they took extra trailing characters as well.

    I didn't complain because I didn't think it was a security flaw but now I am happy because those few times I did that, the thermal imaging attack would have returned an invalid PIN (that would have worked just as well as my valid one).

  34. Thermal camera? by houghi · · Score: 1

    You can have my PIN
    if you pry it from my dead COLD fingers.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  35. And two thirds of people are liars. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "but a third of people surveyed admit that they do not check ATMs for tampering before withdrawing cash"

    Yeah, I get it, some of you are typical Internet paranoid freaks who do this, but 99% of people don't. Why? I've never heard of anyone having their pin stolen. Ever. I've never known anyone who had money stolen from a bank account. We know the vast majority of cases of this are identity theft (which isn't pin theft). If someone did steal my PIN, they'd also need my wallet. My wallet was only stolen in an armed robbery by people who made no attempt to use my cards.

    And what evidence of tampering are you looking for? Wires hanging out? Screws not flush? Seriously, wtf does this even mean?

  36. Didn't Mozy do that on White Collar? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, this isn't exactly new or news.

  37. If i see by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    If i see someone hunched over the ATM i just finished using, with this thermal camera, guess what I will be doing....
    smashing that camera to pieces in front of him.....

    Seriously though, I think whether you dust for prints or heat or etc..... there is always a way to find the pin, which is why i subscribe to the new sms identification method gmail/facebook/hotmail uses, they should use that for banks and for credit cards

  38. just wear gloves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...it's more sanitary anyway.

  39. I type with the back of my nails by ace37 · · Score: 1

    I typically type two of the four numbers with the back of my fingernails. It won't help videocameras unless I would try to obfuscate it further, but for any type of fingerprinting, thermal, oil, or other attempts to duplicate my PIN that I've seen on Hollywood movies or CSI, it's hard enough to figure out that the imaginary criminal would probably just jack the next guy instead. Plus it gives my wife something to make fun of if she ever catches it.

    But honestly, if you manage to steal a card and get the PIN, all you could get is repeated $500 draws until the account is empty, and for most of us, that account balance isn't anything to retire on. If you want to steal money using cards on a small-time scale, it's easier to just work at any restaurant or small business for a few weeks.

    The really capable criminals go after larger scale heists than snooping at the ATM, copying credit cards, or offering cash swaps with Nigerian princes. I think typically we elect them or have them appointed.

  40. Michael Zalewski did it first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Cracking safes with thermal imaging" http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/tsafe/

  41. chase fingerprints by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well chase is making it harder at least. They are installing covers to the numberpad so that its harder for a camera to see what you are typing.

  42. work around by scharkalvin · · Score: 1

    After you are finished with the ATM just press all the buttons on the keypad in random order leaving your finger on each key for a long hard press to really soak up your body heat. Kinda like scrambling the combination on a lock.

  43. Thankfully no criminals have used this method yet. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is really good news. Where can I get one of these thermal imaging cameras? Can I mail away for the plans, you know, so they can't trace me on the internet? What if I get caught? Can I tell them I got the idea from slashdot? I should be able to post some tweaks in the methods in about 10 years when I get out of sing sing..

  44. Cannot know my order. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If my pin number was all the same number how would they know the order?

  45. NOT a new idea by Parhelion · · Score: 1

    This trick was revealed back in the 1980's in a Commodore 64 game I had (I forget the name). The player is a spy who breaks into a top secret installation and at one point he comes to a door with a keypad. You have to think to use your thermal imaging device to look at the keys and guess the code based on how much each one is glowing. It's not a new idea at all. Of course, thermal cameras have always been very expensive, and remain so even today.

  46. Heat of the Moment? by wickedskaman · · Score: 1

    I really don't know what 80s pop sensation Asia has to do with the research they did. I'd like to know how that fits in.

    --
    Sand's overrated... it's just tiny little rocks.
  47. I can do this just by looking at a store by chemosh6969 · · Score: 1

    People type their PIN when they use a debit card at places like 7-11. The real trick is to get the card.

  48. Summer by Forthan+Red · · Score: 1

    It's 103F outside. Good luck with that whole thermal detection thing. (And I always touch all three buttons in a row at once, but only press down one, and will touch random rows without pressing any, just in case there's a camera nearby.)

  49. in Cyberia before that by majid_aldo · · Score: 1

    Cyberia came out in 1994.

    --
    --- widget evolution: enhanced, plus, super, ultra, extreme, exxxtreme, ultra-extreme, ..etc.
  50. Change ATM card to smartcard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The problem with ATMs are that the 'something you have' can be copied so easily. I already have a chip on my credit card and use it at point of sale terminals. How about using smartcard authentication that can't be copied as easily as the magnetic strip?

  51. Best way to prevent observers of any type by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

    I visited a company that had keypads on the doors. These pads would randomly arrange the digits with LEDs in the keys every time. It was a bit harder to find the keys you needed because they were always in a different place, but even if someone watched from the side they had a very narrow field of view, and this silly thermal approach wouldn't work either because the numbers went away after the door opened - you might know which keys they pressed, but not which digits.

  52. Ha! by arsemonkey · · Score: 1

    Wont work on me! I have to enter the wrong pin 3 times,,, call my wife, and then get it right!! Too bad I hit all the f'n keys!!