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Ask Director Eben Upton About the Raspberry Pi Foundation
When Eben Upton isn't working as an ASIC architect for Broadcom, he is the Director of the Raspberry Pi Foundation. The foundation is a UK registered charity which exists to promote the study of computer science and related topics, especially at school level. Raspberry Pi plans to develop, manufacture and distribute an ultra-low-cost
computer, for use in teaching computer programming to children. Their first product is about the size of a credit card, and is designed
to plug into a TV or be combined with a touch screen for a low cost tablet. The expected price is $25 for a baseline Model A device, and $35 for a Model B device with integrated 2-port USB Hub, 10/100
Ethernet controller and 128MB of additional RAM. Eben has agreed to answer your questions about what it takes to make an ultra-low-cost computer, running an educational charity, or anything else. The usual Slashdot interview guidelines apply: ask as many questions as you want, but please keep them to one per comment.
Would you consider making the device available to the public, and using those purchases to subsidize units destined for low-income students?
Your decision to sell the Raspberry Pi to any interested parties, not just educational institutions, seems to indicate a broad-minded approach to education, favoring transparency and open standards. What percentage of your costs do you expect to cover by selling directly to individual, hacker-type enthusiasts, versus wholesale distribution to educational institutions for inclusion in curricula?
A tiny computer with the ability to also twiddle some pins to control external devices would be a great alternitave to the often closed or restricted expensive ARM micro-controller evaluation boards.
can it run linux?
A "computer" with no human input device, no human output device and no storage and incompatible with any mainstream OS is hardly worthy of the name "computer." Which is fine until you start marketing it a "$25 computer" in your slashvertisements.
If it's supposed to be used by a human, it really needs a keyboard and screen to be included in the price.
If it's supposed to be a server, it doesn't, but it doesn't seem like it's any good at that either.
There may be some weird niche where this is useful, but I cannot see any case where it isn't inferior and overpriced compared to an ordinary netbook.
Are you the same Eben Upton who co-wrote the excellent Oxford Rhyming Dictionary ? If so, how'd you like that gig compared to your usual, more techie types of endeavors?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
It's really not designed to be made into a touch screen. The stated goal is to rely as much on existing peripherals as possible, i.e. a TV, existing wall-wart, USB keyboard and mouse. There is an HDMI port for 1080p output, but there's also composite video out, which appears to be very important to them, as the device is meant to be used by kids, who probably don't have big flat screen TVs. There may be solder pads for a high speed graphics link which could be used for adding a touch screen, but whether this port will be available or not hasn't been decided yet.
Their forum is full of pie in the sky wishes what could be added and what people want to turn the Raspberry Pi into. Adding a touch screen and building a table is one of those.
Are you worried about malware being written to target these just like some variants target USB thumb drives or mobile phones? It seems to me that if you sold millions of these to grade schools and then the kids took them home and plugged them into their home computer, the unwary student might inadvertently be the typhoid Mary of a pandemic or spreading stuff to their home computer where their parents sensitive data is stored. Are there any plans to develop tools to or methodologies to prevent such a thing from happening? It just seems that there's a small chance botnet writers, malware authors or maybe even an especially talented student could take advantage of this even if the payload isn't for the architecture or operating system on the Raspberry Pi.
My work here is dung.
Will the general public be able to buy the units? A lot of interesting low cost hardware has come about (like the OLPC), but it's been rare that people off the street have been able to buy them.
Even if there is a very explicit lack of support, it would be nice to just be able to buy them without having to be a school or having an order for 5000 of them.
The requirement for an external power supply seems unfortunate given the small form factor of the computer. When so many devices can draw power from a USB port (and yes, I do acknowledge that these are USB peripherals whereas the Raspberry Pi is a USB host), the need for another cable on such a small device is probably going to be an inconvenience. I'm sure that this is a topic that generated some interesting engineering discussions during product development. Can you share with us what other alternatives may have been considered and the pros and cons of them, and how you ultimately concluded that an external power supply is necessary? 1W at 5V is 200mA, which is certainly a plausible amount of current to draw from a USB cable. It could even make sense for the Raspberry Pi to be a USB device and host a telnet server. Was this use case considered?
Is the device going to have a built-in interpreted language ala BASIC, perl, or java, or is the device going to have a full compilation suite?
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you
Love the concept, and will probably buy at least a couple of the model B.
I was wondering if you plan to have future models with more embedded features (like Bluetooth, WiFi, and GPS)? I know this would raise the cost, but with smartphones including all those things, I wouldn't think that it would be too expensive.
Great work, can't wait to pick mine up.
Are you going to open source the schematics and layout for the hardware design?
If so, will they be provided in formats that are easy to use with low cost and / or free software tools such as Eagle, KiCad, or gEDA?
After it gets off the ground, have you given thought to incorporating other common peripherals into the design such as Blu-Ray, surround sound or Windows 7?
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
And I think it's wonderful that somebody has come up with a low-cost, low-profile system new programmers can cut their teeth on. But given my background, I also know it's a bad idea to mix sugary fruit with silicon.
That said, are you concerned that the name of the project will lead to gastronomic problems with its users, or are you encouraged by the relatively trouble-free history of Apple Computers in this regard?
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
Are you considering having some sort of repository where users can share applications or programs for the board ? A kind of open source 'app store' were people can share there software they have created for the Pi ?
...of these computers. I was wondering, does this provide an opportunity to also educate students about personal finance and responsible borrowing, perhaps with an ebook that comes preloaded on the computer?
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
...is competence in programming, much less actual computational science, better serverd by possessing a computer as opposed to promoting a strong foundation in fundamental mathematics?
(Yes, this is a loaded question, because there's a general concensus that possessing and using technology does not result in better education, much less an education in something as complex as the technology itself.)
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
plans to develop, manufacture and distribute an ultra-low-cost computer, for use in teaching computer programming to children.
I think I just got a jolt of deja vu for some reason.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
I'd also like an even wimpier model. Say, RS-232 instead of HDMI, and no GPU. If I could save three bucks and some power it would make sense in some applications. But I mostly want a more powerful model to also be available. I am really excited about the $35 model as it is, but I'd very much like something with more RAM, and possibly SATA.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
You can buy a tablet for $85-$100, which is probably less than the cost of the monitor. Get some keyboards and you have a much better platform at a lower cost.
It's rather hard to source parts in some cases, and a kit with all the major semis might be interesting to those of us who would like to take the raspberry pi, and make it smaller, or bring out a different set of peripherals.
The design risk if it was possible to take the pi, and edit the PCB design, to eliminate connectors, or add connectors is attractive, even though the cost of a several-off PCB isn't.
It would make it a tool for the education of electronic designers that aren't quite up to sourcing and designing a full linux system yet.
Any plans or exposing some pads or even pins for Digital IO, SPI, and or I2C? Maybe even a few A2Ds? Such a device would be very handy for embedded systems. Things like weather stations, robotics, data logging and so on. Could be very handy in any science class room.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
You have stated in your FAQ:
What is your reasoning process here; Specifically as a charitable non-profit, what would be your motives for not making it an open design?
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
I see that you plan on using C and Python for teaching languages. I recognize that I am of an older generation but grasping C in its entirety or even little endian versus big endian was something that didn't fully come around until college for me. What are your strategies for teaching even younger targets with something like C (Python, however is probably easier)? Are you developing a rigid teaching course line or just happy to have the community put anything out? Furthermore, what is the point of putting all these other languages on your wiki like Processing or Lua? Could you or someone on your staff give a brief explanation for each of these links or are they here just to inspire someone to write a tutorial for -- I don't know -- harvesting data with the Raspberry Pi and displaying it in Processing on another computer? Or do you intend the processing application to compile to ARMv6 on the device and run on the device for a UI output? I know ARMv6 is supposed to be a leaner architecture but I'm not at all familiar with the Broadcom BCM2835 that you've shown on your alpha boards. All my searches for it just link back to your site.
My work here is dung.
I'd find a version with a combo wifi/bluetooth chip much more useful than the Ethernet version. You could plug it into a spare HDMI port (HDMI provides power) on the TV and you're done. No wire needed. Wifi hooks to the network, Bluetooth connects keyboard/mouse. You have to consider the probability of having Ethernet wired to wherever the TV is located.
Is the HDMI CEC wire hooked up with a driver transistor? Hooking up that wire will let the PI control all of the HDMI devices. People are already doing this with the Beagleboard so there is software available.
In alphabetical order: Afrika, America, Asia, Australia, Europe? (Antarctica deliberately omitted.) Which parts of those (wherever the distinction is meaningful): North, South, East, West, Central?
Since the price point on these are so low, what's the feasibility of doing mass grid computing on these machines?
The raspberry pi is meant to introduce programming concepts to school-level children.
My question is: How are you planning on doing this from a UI perspective? The BBC micro (as far as I can tell, a little before my time) simply dropped the user into a BASIC prompt and left the rest to their imagination. This seems like a pretty fundamental design question for the raspberry pi, but I haven't been able to find a clear answer yet.
Have you considered the possibilities of this as a cheap, low power, always on server, providing home users (with broadband) with the sort of facilities they'd normally have to rely on a commercially operated server for? I'm thinking things like email, VoIP, etc.
Since the primary OS will be Debian based we can assume support for C, C++, Python, Perl, and Bash scripting. But I have heard that you would need to get Oracle involved if you wanted a Java SE JDK since the RPi is Arm based. Can you comment on whether or not this is true and, if so, have you or are you in the process of obtaining the ability to develop Java on this platform?
to make people RTFW (iki) ?
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
http://squeak.org/ from what I have heard is a great learning language. Would be a nice option to support.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I think it's an incredible project, and I'll certainly buy one for my son when they come out. I'm just wondering though if not having VGA is a bit of an oversight and I'd be interested to know why you made that tradeoff. I agree composite is great for places where old TVs are common, and HDMI is great for those of us who just want it as a novelty, it's just I can't help but feel that the people who could benefit most from this would most likely get one of these along with a free or very low cost second-hand monitor, which would almost certainly be VGA only.
Seeing as the aim of the project is to create a tinkering platform for nascent, teenage programmers I was wondering why the idea to write a full, tutorial programming manual was dropped. The whole of the early '80s micro boom and bedroom coders was based upon not on the "cheap" hardware such as the BBC Micro and the Sinclair ZX81/Spectrum but mainly the comprehensive and very educational manuals which came with them. So, why was the idea of the accompanying educational material dropped?
Agrajag: "Oh no, not again!"
Hey Eben are you collecting project ideas to distribute with the gadget?
If you can wedge in two USB ethernets, make a cool little firewall/router for not much more cost than linksys and infinitely more versatile ... model railroad, stuffed animal, who knows
Beowulf cluster in a lunchbox
Wearable computing / gargoyle thingy
Make your own hand held GPS with your own UI. Maybe a dedicated geocaching appliance?
Embedded webserver inside a
Misterhouse on a really really small scale (misterhouse - in - a - doll - house?)
Homemade digital ultra-big-screen digital picture frame (I have no idea where to buy a 5 inch monitor, but I can buy all the 19 inch monitors I want for like a hundred bucks)
Control theory demo like a balancing on two wheels thingy
MP3 player / mp3 jukebox with UI of your own design
mythtv frontend ?
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
How heavily customized is the version of Debian that you're including? Will it be highly optimized for the particular hardware? Will it have any special applications or utilities that are customized for the hardware, or specifically branded for Raspberry Pi?
And as a sidenote... if you really want a million thirteen-year-olds to get interested in programming, include some sort of simple framework or library to allow writing games. Beginning programmers need to be able to do something without having to cope with a complex, OO gui api. This could be as basic as SDL with a particular sprite and sound lib... just build it in. Don't underestimate the effect that gaming had on creating a generation of programmers back in the 80's and 90's.
As another sidenote... I foresee a potential use for these as a medium for selling software. If you are selling a particular type of program, such as interactive slideshows for a kiosk, it would be easy enough to load the software on one of these and sell the hardware/software combination together. Customer just plugs it into the TV when they want to run it. It's effectively using the computer as a commodity to sell the actual value, the software. Just a thought.
If you want this board to be something incredible, then you need to push for the Broadcom CPU datasheet to be released without an NDA. Even a stripped down version that excludes the GPU is better than nothing!
Have you thought about creating cases for these things?
A keyboard would make a good case, possibly with a USB hub built in.
Is the firmware for the media accelerator going to be open source?
There have been unofficial statements that certain parts of the kernel and userspace, driving certain pieces of the SoC like the 3D rasterizer, will not have any corresponding source code available and will only be made available as licensed binary blobs.
Can we get an official statement on the matter? What's your stance on open drivers, and why are you for/opposed to them?
~ C.
~ C.
for the tech world. How do you find the time, energy and motivation to work full time in tech and then when you get home, do more tech? Do you ride a bike, go camping, kayaking, anything else?
In the same vein: The BBC Micro came with a user guide that allowed what would now be regarded as "kernel level" hacking. This was great because it allowed some of us to increase our programming skills beyond writing simple BASIC programs. Will there be a similar level of hardware documentation to allow such programming with the Raspberry Pi?
As far as I can tell the system has a rather uncommon and interesting booting method. Will there be technical documentation available for developers of other operating systems who want to write a port for the Raspberry Pi? You can't fully learn how to program a system if you don't know how to boot.
Did you chose those names as a homage to the BBC Micro Model A and Model B?
Will there be a pinout available for hardware I2C, SPI, RS-232, USB and so on that aren't brought out to headers? Will there be open drivers for the above peripherals? How about real time clock and things like that.
Or will people be stuck having to run bitbanged communications like on other hacked Broadcom stuff, because there is no information available to use the hardware peripherals, at least without a NDA and (presumably) a large cheque. That and having to run an ancient kernel to use the broadcom binary blob drivers...
I'm hoping for something better than that, but if past experience is any indicator...
Sent from my PDP-11
Are you intentionally reproducing the BBC computer model names? Also, hurrah!
Tom
Seems to be a lot of changes from the press release prototype in May
Size increase, Change from in OS from Ubunutu to Debian, removal of features listed, all to meet this $25 goal, while thats nice, how about a Model C or D which is closer to the original prototype, ie: size/form factor, with more memory 1GB, and switching or offering Ubuntu,
Debians great, but the DFSG is going to cause you problems with media programs ie: no support for MP3 unless your providing your own repos's with things recompiled to include LAME, MP3 support. Ubunutu will allow for simple apt-get or synaptic use to install a much richer selection of software with a lot more ease. Considering the crowd your aiming for using Ubunutu would be a better csae.
1311393600 - Back to Black
How about more involvement from the community?
Theres lots of buzz on this from the PR in May, lots of requests for users to get their hands on boards to test, how about invoving the community more in this project for testing of the alpha boards, etc.... I willing to purchase the board(s) at a 10-20% markup to support the project as well as to test out things and report problems, as well as be able to get my own needs met for possible use of the device in my own project.
1311393600 - Back to Black
I just want to know when I can get my greedy little hands on one ?
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
Can you confirm that that device will have the optional FPU system?
http://www.arm.com/products/processors/technologies/vector-floating-point.php
http://www.arm.com/products/processors/classic/arm11/arm1176.php, under specifications under ISA support, FPU *OPTIONAL* this is a must have.
This is listed as OPTIONAL... media codex require the FPU to be used ie: LAME, ogg etc... for encoding...
I am not discussing what it may decode, ENCODING of audio for streaming in mp3, ogg, AAC, FLAC etc...
1311393600 - Back to Black
Will there be any documentation on writing custom firmwares for the Broadcom VideoCore IV chip? It seems to be a very cool GPU especially that it is fully programmable.
Support Eachother, Copy Dutch Property!
Are you going to build these onto a monitor or what? I'd love one of these with a monitor and plug in's on the front of the monitor for one's stuff,like camera keyboard,mouse,etc.
Anyway,this is brilliant!
Since its _Raison d'Etre_ is teaching kids programming, requiring cross-compilation on another machine would be the stupidest move in history.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you
For any future models, could you consider the amount of RAM some heavy applications require (office software, more RAM-intensive scientific software, Java-based stuff, web browsers...)?
I am not devoid of humor.
Educational take up of the Raspberry Pi will depend a lot on whether it fits in with current teaching framework (e.g. the National Curriculum in the UK). Will you be producing teaching material / training courses for schools which shows them how best to use the hardware to fulfil the 'tick boxes' required by these frameworks?
If a component were to break, would they be covered under some form of warranty?
So, will it need non-free software to run, such as a wireless firmware blob, a proprietary bios/bootloader or a non-free graphics driver (like PowerVR)? As far as I know there is still no computer that can do that, and it would be a great achievement.
I don't know what the signal processing difficulties may be but is there any chance the composite video out can be used instead as an S/PDIF output?
For schools, I am really attracted to the concept of lower cost, basic hardware and software. For years I have introduced schools to free, open-source software tools to save money. Low cost hardware should great but is that really enough computing power to teach programming? I have an old PC with 3x the memory and I run into issues related to lack of memory!
Scott Wallace, Executive Director of the National Center for School Leadership