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Ask Director Eben Upton About the Raspberry Pi Foundation
When Eben Upton isn't working as an ASIC architect for Broadcom, he is the Director of the Raspberry Pi Foundation. The foundation is a UK registered charity which exists to promote the study of computer science and related topics, especially at school level. Raspberry Pi plans to develop, manufacture and distribute an ultra-low-cost
computer, for use in teaching computer programming to children. Their first product is about the size of a credit card, and is designed
to plug into a TV or be combined with a touch screen for a low cost tablet. The expected price is $25 for a baseline Model A device, and $35 for a Model B device with integrated 2-port USB Hub, 10/100
Ethernet controller and 128MB of additional RAM. Eben has agreed to answer your questions about what it takes to make an ultra-low-cost computer, running an educational charity, or anything else. The usual Slashdot interview guidelines apply: ask as many questions as you want, but please keep them to one per comment.
Would you consider making the device available to the public, and using those purchases to subsidize units destined for low-income students?
Your decision to sell the Raspberry Pi to any interested parties, not just educational institutions, seems to indicate a broad-minded approach to education, favoring transparency and open standards. What percentage of your costs do you expect to cover by selling directly to individual, hacker-type enthusiasts, versus wholesale distribution to educational institutions for inclusion in curricula?
Are you the same Eben Upton who co-wrote the excellent Oxford Rhyming Dictionary ? If so, how'd you like that gig compared to your usual, more techie types of endeavors?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
You do realize that most desktops are sold without a screen right?
Any human interested in this will own a screen and a keyboard already. Any human interested in this will not be scared away by having to run a non-mainstream OS.
I could be wrong, but it seems this computer is meant for learning programming. A keyboard is not included because there are keyboards for cheap or free all over the place. The computer doesn't have a monitor because it is supposed to be plugged in to a television. It is not incompatible with every mainstream os, it has an ARM processor, and will run Linux. Even if it was meant to replace my desktop, I wouldn't buy a computer that has all of the peripherals included. That would be silly.
Are you worried about malware being written to target these just like some variants target USB thumb drives or mobile phones? It seems to me that if you sold millions of these to grade schools and then the kids took them home and plugged them into their home computer, the unwary student might inadvertently be the typhoid Mary of a pandemic or spreading stuff to their home computer where their parents sensitive data is stored. Are there any plans to develop tools to or methodologies to prevent such a thing from happening? It just seems that there's a small chance botnet writers, malware authors or maybe even an especially talented student could take advantage of this even if the payload isn't for the architecture or operating system on the Raspberry Pi.
My work here is dung.
yes because no one on the planet has a screen and computers are never ever sold without a monitor
and for fucks sake a keyboard cost 25 cents at the thrift store
just cause your mommy bought a hp at big box that does not define what a computer is
Is the device going to have a built-in interpreted language ala BASIC, perl, or java, or is the device going to have a full compilation suite?
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you
They are going to sell the boards to any one who wishes to buy them (as indicated on their site and the emails I have send before). Sales are expected once they complete to scale down of the Alpha boards (End of November - indicated by their site).
Can't wait to get my hands on one of those... :D
It comes with an HDMI port and a USB port, so it has display and input device capabilities. I'm not sure what your complaint is. Possibly it's because you have no idea what you're talking about, in which case, you're just a fucking retard.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
There will be a couple 3.3V general purpose IOs. The exact number and whether there will be headers or just soldering pads hasn't been decided yet, AFAIK.
Yeah, who the hell runs Linux on ARM processors...
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Frankly, the only thing I'd like is to bump the RAM up to 512mb. I have about 20 computers in the organization I work for that are public use, and you get up to that amount of RAM and they should run Open/LibreOffice okay, and then I just buy the the HDMI/DVI patch and toss the eight year old Dells we're using.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Ooh ooh, I got this one! Android runs on ARM, and iirc Android is based on Linux. Mobile phones are a pretty big market, so "who" is just about everyone that doesn't live in a very poor area.
I am fascinated by the idea of Windows 7 as a peripheral, perhaps you could explain your idea in further detail?
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
If you can afford a television with usable inputs and/or a conversion dongle, you can afford a netbook.
And you can still afford to buy this.
ARM linux is not a mainstream OS.
My phone disagrees with you.
Keyboards may be free or cheap to people who already have computers, but not so much to anyone who would be interested in a $25 inferior good.
Those people can buy them at good will.
If you already have a screen and keyboard, you wouldn't buy this, since it is inferior in all ways to any desktop from 1995 or later.
Let's count some ways it is better than this 1995 desktop:
1. HDMI
2. ARM
3. lower power
4. smaller
5. this still works
6. this has general io ports, 3.3v ones another poster claimed
This is a great product and I will be buying one, even though I have a netbook, smartphone, desktop and several smaller handheld devices.
...is competence in programming, much less actual computational science, better serverd by possessing a computer as opposed to promoting a strong foundation in fundamental mathematics?
(Yes, this is a loaded question, because there's a general concensus that possessing and using technology does not result in better education, much less an education in something as complex as the technology itself.)
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
plans to develop, manufacture and distribute an ultra-low-cost computer, for use in teaching computer programming to children.
I think I just got a jolt of deja vu for some reason.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
What about doing terminal services (either LTSP or RDS)? Easier to manage, plus I'd be worried about the write workload of a full desktop OS on the SD card.
This is for mainly education, not just hacking. If the school wants to provide their students with them, they have to account for peripherals.
Dilbert RSS feed
people who want embedded systems and dont feel like taking a mortgage out on their house to get some shit closed source compiler on a 80Mhz TI board that cost more than a dual core desktop
I'd also like an even wimpier model. Say, RS-232 instead of HDMI, and no GPU. If I could save three bucks and some power it would make sense in some applications. But I mostly want a more powerful model to also be available. I am really excited about the $35 model as it is, but I'd very much like something with more RAM, and possibly SATA.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I believe it's familiarity, not carbohydrate content that does all of the selling. Most people have windows in their dwellings, and they are viewed in sharp relief to the stark walls that surround them. Seeing "Windows" on a computer makes people think that there is something good, and not so scary inside the beige buttoned box. And hell, doesn't everyone enjoy crunching in to a fresh juicy apple? Except lunatics and those with incorrect opinions, of course! The downfall of Linux has always been the choice of using a penguin as a mascot. Who's ever met a penguin? If I did meet one, would it bite me? How big is it, and how many steaks can I get from one? All this confusion!
I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but this is ARM so it can't run Win7, it has surround sound through the HDMI port, and you could probably add a USB bluray drive and use the h.264 decoding in the GPU to make that work.
It's rather hard to source parts in some cases, and a kit with all the major semis might be interesting to those of us who would like to take the raspberry pi, and make it smaller, or bring out a different set of peripherals.
The design risk if it was possible to take the pi, and edit the PCB design, to eliminate connectors, or add connectors is attractive, even though the cost of a several-off PCB isn't.
It would make it a tool for the education of electronic designers that aren't quite up to sourcing and designing a full linux system yet.
Due to the design of the on-board power regulator it needs to at least 6 volts of input to generate 5 volts for the built-in USB host ports (most of the rest of the board runs off a separate 3.3v regulator). This is one of the most-requested features on their message board so they're looking into whether it would be possible to bypass the 5 volt regulator if the board is supplied with 5 volts in the first place but there are no promises and for now the official power specs are still 6 volts minimum (20 volts max).
What if this signature were clever?
Any plans or exposing some pads or even pins for Digital IO, SPI, and or I2C? Maybe even a few A2Ds? Such a device would be very handy for embedded systems. Things like weather stations, robotics, data logging and so on. Could be very handy in any science class room.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
You have stated in your FAQ:
What is your reasoning process here; Specifically as a charitable non-profit, what would be your motives for not making it an open design?
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
I see that you plan on using C and Python for teaching languages. I recognize that I am of an older generation but grasping C in its entirety or even little endian versus big endian was something that didn't fully come around until college for me. What are your strategies for teaching even younger targets with something like C (Python, however is probably easier)? Are you developing a rigid teaching course line or just happy to have the community put anything out? Furthermore, what is the point of putting all these other languages on your wiki like Processing or Lua? Could you or someone on your staff give a brief explanation for each of these links or are they here just to inspire someone to write a tutorial for -- I don't know -- harvesting data with the Raspberry Pi and displaying it in Processing on another computer? Or do you intend the processing application to compile to ARMv6 on the device and run on the device for a UI output? I know ARMv6 is supposed to be a leaner architecture but I'm not at all familiar with the Broadcom BCM2835 that you've shown on your alpha boards. All my searches for it just link back to your site.
My work here is dung.
I'd find a version with a combo wifi/bluetooth chip much more useful than the Ethernet version. You could plug it into a spare HDMI port (HDMI provides power) on the TV and you're done. No wire needed. Wifi hooks to the network, Bluetooth connects keyboard/mouse. You have to consider the probability of having Ethernet wired to wherever the TV is located.
Is the HDMI CEC wire hooked up with a driver transistor? Hooking up that wire will let the PI control all of the HDMI devices. People are already doing this with the Beagleboard so there is software available.
In alphabetical order: Afrika, America, Asia, Australia, Europe? (Antarctica deliberately omitted.) Which parts of those (wherever the distinction is meaningful): North, South, East, West, Central?
Since the price point on these are so low, what's the feasibility of doing mass grid computing on these machines?
The raspberry pi is meant to introduce programming concepts to school-level children.
My question is: How are you planning on doing this from a UI perspective? The BBC micro (as far as I can tell, a little before my time) simply dropped the user into a BASIC prompt and left the rest to their imagination. This seems like a pretty fundamental design question for the raspberry pi, but I haven't been able to find a clear answer yet.
whooooosh?
Since the primary OS will be Debian based we can assume support for C, C++, Python, Perl, and Bash scripting. But I have heard that you would need to get Oracle involved if you wanted a Java SE JDK since the RPi is Arm based. Can you comment on whether or not this is true and, if so, have you or are you in the process of obtaining the ability to develop Java on this platform?
I Iove the hardware idea, and side with the desire for a "Model C" with 512-1024MB of RAM and wifi..
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
to make people RTFW (iki) ?
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
Latest I heard of it, anyone can buy units, in any quantity (starting at 1). There will be a "buy one give one" program, as well as a slightly pricier unit with a built-in donation (same specs)
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
I'm with you - really, these little suckers could open up a potential solar system of possibilities. A form factor small enough to have an entire computer mounted into a 2.5" external hard drive case complete with SSD drive, USB & Ethernet plugs with a mobile power appetite and a price tag around $35 or $40? Where do I sign?
I call it 'The Aristocrats'
even assuming you actually have to buy a power supply, SD card, keyboard and mouse (and you usually can recycle at least some of those), the Pi is vastly less expensive than a netbook. It can be plugged into a TV.
What do you mean by "mainstream OS" ? Windows or MacOS ? 'coz it does run Linux...
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
It's already running Debian.
-Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience-
http://squeak.org/ from what I have heard is a great learning language. Would be a nice option to support.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I think it's an incredible project, and I'll certainly buy one for my son when they come out. I'm just wondering though if not having VGA is a bit of an oversight and I'd be interested to know why you made that tradeoff. I agree composite is great for places where old TVs are common, and HDMI is great for those of us who just want it as a novelty, it's just I can't help but feel that the people who could benefit most from this would most likely get one of these along with a free or very low cost second-hand monitor, which would almost certainly be VGA only.
It doesn't make sense for you. Couple that with your inability see things from any other perspective than your own, and I guess we get comments like yours.
Seeing as the aim of the project is to create a tinkering platform for nascent, teenage programmers I was wondering why the idea to write a full, tutorial programming manual was dropped. The whole of the early '80s micro boom and bedroom coders was based upon not on the "cheap" hardware such as the BBC Micro and the Sinclair ZX81/Spectrum but mainly the comprehensive and very educational manuals which came with them. So, why was the idea of the accompanying educational material dropped?
Agrajag: "Oh no, not again!"
Hey Eben are you collecting project ideas to distribute with the gadget?
If you can wedge in two USB ethernets, make a cool little firewall/router for not much more cost than linksys and infinitely more versatile ... model railroad, stuffed animal, who knows
Beowulf cluster in a lunchbox
Wearable computing / gargoyle thingy
Make your own hand held GPS with your own UI. Maybe a dedicated geocaching appliance?
Embedded webserver inside a
Misterhouse on a really really small scale (misterhouse - in - a - doll - house?)
Homemade digital ultra-big-screen digital picture frame (I have no idea where to buy a 5 inch monitor, but I can buy all the 19 inch monitors I want for like a hundred bucks)
Control theory demo like a balancing on two wheels thingy
MP3 player / mp3 jukebox with UI of your own design
mythtv frontend ?
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
How heavily customized is the version of Debian that you're including? Will it be highly optimized for the particular hardware? Will it have any special applications or utilities that are customized for the hardware, or specifically branded for Raspberry Pi?
And as a sidenote... if you really want a million thirteen-year-olds to get interested in programming, include some sort of simple framework or library to allow writing games. Beginning programmers need to be able to do something without having to cope with a complex, OO gui api. This could be as basic as SDL with a particular sprite and sound lib... just build it in. Don't underestimate the effect that gaming had on creating a generation of programmers back in the 80's and 90's.
As another sidenote... I foresee a potential use for these as a medium for selling software. If you are selling a particular type of program, such as interactive slideshows for a kiosk, it would be easy enough to load the software on one of these and sell the hardware/software combination together. Customer just plugs it into the TV when they want to run it. It's effectively using the computer as a commodity to sell the actual value, the software. Just a thought.
If you want this board to be something incredible, then you need to push for the Broadcom CPU datasheet to be released without an NDA. Even a stripped down version that excludes the GPU is better than nothing!
You already have a TV. You probably already have an extra keyboard; if not, spend a dollar and get one from any thrift store. This is cheap enough for you to buy one for each of your kids on a whim.
Have you thought about creating cases for these things?
A keyboard would make a good case, possibly with a USB hub built in.
A tenner says Sophie Wilson is in some circumferential way involved with this project.
of course there is a way, (just stick 5v where the output of the regulator is and ignore the regulator) its weather they will break it out to be easy or if we're going to have to break out the 30 gauge and soldering iron
There have been unofficial statements that certain parts of the kernel and userspace, driving certain pieces of the SoC like the 3D rasterizer, will not have any corresponding source code available and will only be made available as licensed binary blobs.
Can we get an official statement on the matter? What's your stance on open drivers, and why are you for/opposed to them?
~ C.
~ C.
In the same vein: The BBC Micro came with a user guide that allowed what would now be regarded as "kernel level" hacking. This was great because it allowed some of us to increase our programming skills beyond writing simple BASIC programs. Will there be a similar level of hardware documentation to allow such programming with the Raspberry Pi?
As far as I can tell the system has a rather uncommon and interesting booting method. Will there be technical documentation available for developers of other operating systems who want to write a port for the Raspberry Pi? You can't fully learn how to program a system if you don't know how to boot.
If you can afford a television with usable inputs and/or a conversion dongle, you can afford a netbook.
Most people already have televisions with usable inputs. If you don't, they're fairly easy to come by for almost (or actually) no money. Look up your local freecycle list.
Keyboards may be free or cheap to people who already have computers, but not so much to anyone who would be interested in a $25 inferior good.
Keyboards can be purchased for less than $10, or again frequently turn up on freecycle or similar.
If you already have a screen and keyboard, you wouldn't buy this, since it is inferior in all ways to any desktop from 1995 or later.
A 1995 desktop is unlikely to have 128MB of RAM, or a processor that runs at multiple hundreds of MHz. But even accepting that you meant to type 2002, your point is still flawed: this device has several substantial benefits:
* low power consumption
* silent operation (no fans, solid state storage)
* TV output (not a common feature on desktop PCs until quite recently)
* easily-accessible programmable I/O pins
Seems like a good vehicle for TOR hidden services.
Functional, portable, disposable.
Did you chose those names as a homage to the BBC Micro Model A and Model B?
Will there be a pinout available for hardware I2C, SPI, RS-232, USB and so on that aren't brought out to headers? Will there be open drivers for the above peripherals? How about real time clock and things like that.
Or will people be stuck having to run bitbanged communications like on other hacked Broadcom stuff, because there is no information available to use the hardware peripherals, at least without a NDA and (presumably) a large cheque. That and having to run an ancient kernel to use the broadcom binary blob drivers...
I'm hoping for something better than that, but if past experience is any indicator...
Sent from my PDP-11
Seems to be a lot of changes from the press release prototype in May
Size increase, Change from in OS from Ubunutu to Debian, removal of features listed, all to meet this $25 goal, while thats nice, how about a Model C or D which is closer to the original prototype, ie: size/form factor, with more memory 1GB, and switching or offering Ubuntu,
Debians great, but the DFSG is going to cause you problems with media programs ie: no support for MP3 unless your providing your own repos's with things recompiled to include LAME, MP3 support. Ubunutu will allow for simple apt-get or synaptic use to install a much richer selection of software with a lot more ease. Considering the crowd your aiming for using Ubunutu would be a better csae.
1311393600 - Back to Black
How about more involvement from the community?
Theres lots of buzz on this from the PR in May, lots of requests for users to get their hands on boards to test, how about invoving the community more in this project for testing of the alpha boards, etc.... I willing to purchase the board(s) at a 10-20% markup to support the project as well as to test out things and report problems, as well as be able to get my own needs met for possible use of the device in my own project.
1311393600 - Back to Black
I just want to know when I can get my greedy little hands on one ?
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
Can you confirm that that device will have the optional FPU system?
http://www.arm.com/products/processors/technologies/vector-floating-point.php
http://www.arm.com/products/processors/classic/arm11/arm1176.php, under specifications under ISA support, FPU *OPTIONAL* this is a must have.
This is listed as OPTIONAL... media codex require the FPU to be used ie: LAME, ogg etc... for encoding...
I am not discussing what it may decode, ENCODING of audio for streaming in mp3, ogg, AAC, FLAC etc...
1311393600 - Back to Black
Since it's supposed to boot and run from an SD card which can also be written to from another machine, it's effectively impossible to brick the thing. If you bork your boot sector, just rewrite the boot image from your other computer (in the classroom scenario, the teacher can do this) and you're ready to go again.
-- Soruk
Will there be any documentation on writing custom firmwares for the Broadcom VideoCore IV chip? It seems to be a very cool GPU especially that it is fully programmable.
Support Eachother, Copy Dutch Property!
Debian, Fedora and ArchLinux will be supported from the start.
I am not devoid of humor.
Since its _Raison d'Etre_ is teaching kids programming, requiring cross-compilation on another machine would be the stupidest move in history.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you
For any future models, could you consider the amount of RAM some heavy applications require (office software, more RAM-intensive scientific software, Java-based stuff, web browsers...)?
I am not devoid of humor.
For schools, I am really attracted to the concept of lower cost, basic hardware and software. For years I have introduced schools to free, open-source software tools to save money. Low cost hardware should great but is that really enough computing power to teach programming? I have an old PC with 3x the memory and I run into issues related to lack of memory!
Scott Wallace, Executive Director of the National Center for School Leadership