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Anti-Rootkit Security Beyond the OS

Orome1 writes "Cybercriminals know how to evade current operating systems-based security, demanding a new paradigm – security beyond the operating system. On that note, McAfee demonstrated the workings of its new McAfee DeepSAFE technology at the Intel Developer Forum on Tuesday. Co-developed with Intel, it allows McAfee to develop hardware-assisted security products to take advantage of a 'deeper' security footprint. It sits beyond the operating system and close to the silicon, and by operating beyond the OS, it provides a direct view of system memory and processor activity."

176 comments

  1. So I have to ask by mikerubin · · Score: 2

    Why doesn't McAfee just write an OS?

    --
    I sat down to write a new sig tonight and all I did was make the chair warm.
    1. Re:So I have to ask by monkyyy · · Score: 2

      either some hard ware that double checks everything and slows everything down to a standstill,
      or a bootloader

      cant be sure they are using vague marketing terms

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      warning pointless sig
    2. Re:So I have to ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1) a pseudo-OS shimmed in between the OS and the hardware
      2) Another another vulnerability point that can be compromised

    3. Re:So I have to ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you really mean it? I wouldn't use their O/S for sure.

    4. Re:So I have to ask by monkyyy · · Score: 1

      mind pointing out where it says constantly running? and me not typey english

      anyway can anyone figure out what sort of thing this actually does? is it a bootloader that runs a scan on boot,(cause thats the only thing i can think of based off there diagram that isnt terrible, mainly because that wouldn't need writing rights) or something really dumb that can actually can effect to os if it gets hacked

      --
      warning pointless sig
    5. Re:So I have to ask by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Im sure its well coded and quite fast, though-- after all, this IS McAfee.

    6. Re:So I have to ask by monkyyy · · Score: 1

      *ggg image here*
      loves and tolerates the trolls

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      warning pointless sig
    7. Re:So I have to ask by justforgetme · · Score: 1

      this isn't an anti root-kit, that's for sure.
      the über root-kit maybe but not anti. Information security is created in two layers: 1) create a safe I/O environmet (OS) 2) educate the user not to be stupid.

      In retrospect maybe it is a bit unrealistic to believe you can out-educate stupidness but an Input safe OS I still am baffled why we don't have. Even linux with SElinux enabled can be made to self mutilate if you concentrate a bit.

      --
      -- no sig today
    8. Re:So I have to ask by justforgetme · · Score: 1

      D@mn, I knew I still had something to write while pushing submit!

      So giving crackers a layer between the OS and the metal means that it will be even harder to detect/remove by uneducated users or sw, why not give them the whole processor from blueprint? That will stop them from trying to get into your machines!

      --
      -- no sig today
    9. Re:So I have to ask by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 2

      McAfee running a level below the operating system? Hmm ... What could possibly go wrong? :)

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    10. Re:So I have to ask by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Hell there was a security warning about a new bug that writes itself to Award BIOS chips coming out of China just last week, so how does mcCrappy think they can magically go any lower than that? Either you make it a ROM in which case good luck updating the thing when new threats figure out how to bypass it, or it is read/write which means that a bug can overwrite the thing.

      That is why I say nothing beats a good bootable security CD. I use a Windows live CD which I then access a flash stick with the latest scanners once the boot CD has loaded. Even the BIOS bugs have to write some files to the HDD to make up for the tiny space they have in BIOS to work from so if those files are detected you can then reflash the BIOS and get it back up and running.

      I think ultimately though if we want to do something about security we need to do something about the way browsers and JavaScript work. just running any third party code from the web willy nilly without even asking the user or OS is just asking for pain. Sandboxes are just bandaids on bullet wounds, there has to be a way to lock down the code before it ever runs so that it can't run malicious scripts. Hell look at that Yahoo FF porn bug script going around. If you suddenly start getting spam emails from a friend and he doesn't have an infection you'll know why, its the FF Yahoo porn bug. It spams your mail addresses while you look at teh titties, hell set up a password on your passwords in FF and see how many times the pop up asking for it gets called, its just nuts!

      So in the end I think we are going the wrong way when it comes to security. We shouldn't be looking at drilling deeper and deeper into the hardware, we should be looking at the web and how we can change it so web designers can have their bling bling bullshit without crapping all over our security.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    11. Re:So I have to ask by ifrag · · Score: 1

      McAfee is confident this new security implementation will delete system files even less than prior software offerings by preventing access to the disk entirely!

      --
      Fear is the mind killer.
    12. Re:So I have to ask by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      I'm thinking a firmware (uefi) extension, or a hypervisor.

    13. Re:So I have to ask by That+Guy+From+Mrktng · · Score: 1

      Deleting system files is for noobs and the likes of Norton, McAfee will burn the thermal diodes in your mobo and randomly overwrite SMART data to your disks, with additional modules it can filter the "virii" from the twitter feed that can be displayed now in your bios screen. PHBs will love it.

  2. Ohhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Scary.

  3. We need scanners that run the OS in VM. by Zaphod-AVA · · Score: 1

    I think an anti-malware scanner that ran from a boot disk and loaded the OS on the drive into a virtual machine would be an incredibly valuable tool.

    Or we could just switch to cloud based security white-listing and kill the majority of the malware industry overnight.

    1. Re:We need scanners that run the OS in VM. by Microlith · · Score: 1

      we could just switch to cloud based security white-listing

      Explain this, please?

    2. Re:We need scanners that run the OS in VM. by monkyyy · · Score: 1

      NO!!!, whitelisting the internet is out of the questoin

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      warning pointless sig
    3. Re:We need scanners that run the OS in VM. by blueg3 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It means he doesn't understand the problems inherent in computer security.

    4. Re:We need scanners that run the OS in VM. by Alimony+Pakhdan · · Score: 2, Funny

      But he does understand how to use buzzwords. That has to count for something, right?

    5. Re:We need scanners that run the OS in VM. by Securityemo · · Score: 1

      Wild guess: he means managing the entire software stack on a device using a combination of the iphone walled-garden approach and "running applications in the cloud" (like, say, google docs?).

      --
      Emotions! In your brain!
    6. Re:We need scanners that run the OS in VM. by Gaygirlie · · Score: 2

      But he does understand how to use buzzwords. That has to count for something, right?

      Aye, it does: he won't make for a good administrator, but he'll make for a fine CEO.

    7. Re:We need scanners that run the OS in VM. by Zaphod-AVA · · Score: 1

      I mean switching from a service that maintains a blacklist for users to a service that maintains a whitelist for users. Lock down systems so that only executables on the whitelist are allowed to run. New or modified executables, (or their hashes) get sent to the central subscription service to check to see if it should or shouldn't be added to the local whitelist. Newly patched Windows file? Allow. Popular program in use by a million subscribers to the whitelist service? Allow. Most other things? Don't allow.

    8. Re:We need scanners that run the OS in VM. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Sounds great! Open source program? Don't allow. New program from a competitor? Don't allow. In-house software? Charge a fee to allow.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    9. Re:We need scanners that run the OS in VM. by Zaphod-AVA · · Score: 1

      Who said it had to be completely closed? User available overrides with scary warnings should keep the average user safe and still allow power users to do what they want.

      Most Slashdotters don't need much security beyond flashblock and noscript anyway.

    10. Re:We need scanners that run the OS in VM. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      User available overrides with scary warnings should keep the average user safe and still allow power users to do what they want.

      Yup, that's true. After all, it worked perfectly for ActiveX - don't run anything that isn't signed by a Microsoft-signed certificate unless the user clicks past the scary unsafe code warning.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    11. Re:We need scanners that run the OS in VM. by Zaphod-AVA · · Score: 1

      Don't pretend those warnings were well written. They boiled down to 'Do you want to run this? y/n", and it taught poorly educated users to just click yes/allow until it ran.

  4. And then.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    10 years later..

    "Cybercriminals know how to evade current silicon-based security, demanding a new paradigm - security beyond the hardware and the OS. On that note, McAfee demonstrated the workings of it's new invention - the non-dumb user."

    1. Re:And then.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Supply would never meet demand...or would it?

    2. Re:And then.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "On that note, McAfee demonstrated the workings of it's new invention - the non-dumb user."

      Psh... I've had one of those for years now.

    3. Re:And then.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "demonstrated the workings of it's new invention - the non-dumb user."

      Correct use of the apostrophe: still too complicated.

    4. Re:And then.... by Baloroth · · Score: 2

      I'm pretty sure that would destroy McAfee's entire business model.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    5. Re:And then.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actual proof as to how stupid these capitalistic companies still are. Once again, they will prove that a security system built to make money, will fall to someone wanting to crack it just for shits, giggles, and cred. Need anyone say more?

    6. Re:And then.... by c0lo · · Score: 1

      "On that note, McAfee demonstrated the workings of it's new invention - the non-dumb user."

      Psh... I've had one of those for years now.

      Keep it safe, preferable in a cryogenic enclosure. The species is going extinct, we'll need the DNA for cloning in the near future.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    7. Re:And then.... by tigersha · · Score: 1

      "McAffee today announced that they purchased Intel and AMD so that they can add their security scanner directly INTO the silicon."

      --
      The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
    8. Re:And then.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [...] the non-dumb user."

      ain't gonna happen ;-p

  5. lower level added latency by MichaelKristopeit418 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    it is ignorant hypocrisy to assume your product deserves to be trusted to process everything because another product is vulnerable to exploit.

    now you've got your silicon running under the assumption that the OS is not implicitly trusted, but for some reason, some other OS should be trusted and should process every bit of information a 2nd time before anything is accomplished.

    #dumb

    1. Re:lower level added latency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      (marking this day in the calendar. The first post in a while from MichaelKristopeit that does make some common sense. Maybe there's still hope in this world?).

    2. Re:lower level added latency by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I mean what the fuck would we call such an idiotic thing. Maybe something silly like "Security in layers" or something. That just _sounds_ dumb, amirite?

  6. That just sounds like another level to infect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Just like ring 0 and ring -1 have been abuse, I'm pretty sure that in a few years, we'll read headlines "New persistent rookit infects McAfee DeepSafe"!

    1. Re:That just sounds like another level to infect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's rootkits all the way down.

  7. better idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    hammer a nail through the cpu it'll kill all the vira, and it will still have more computing power left than if it was running McAfee ...

    1. Re:better idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On that note, the laptop at my last job was set to run McAfee daily and all the settings were locked down. The laptop also had an obscure 'data' folder with what looked like installation files that I could not touch but was included in the virus scan.

      The scan took 7 hours and started every morning.

      Yes, my work laptop was _continually_ running a McAffee scan. Imagine the excruciation.

      It got especially lovely when it was running Windows File Indexing at the same time.

    2. Re:better idea by c0lo · · Score: 1

      hammer a nail through the cpu it'll kill all the vira, and it will still have more computing power left than if it was running McAfee ...

      Vira?! Why don't you stick with "viruses"? ("virus" is a mass-noun in Latin - means "venom" - doesn't support plural forms. Using the contorted neo-latin "vira" is pretty much like you'd use "malwares" in English - maybe not incorrect, but doesn't sounds good to me).

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    3. Re:better idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but you doesn't sounds like an English expert either

    4. Re:better idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but you doesn't sounds like an English expert either

      You mean what exactly?

    5. Re:better idea by c0lo · · Score: 1

      Yeah, my apologies. Still having an opinion on vira/viruses that you can share?

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    6. Re:better idea by djdanlib · · Score: 1

      I have often seen "virii" used as the plural.

      But yes, using "viruses" as the plural of the word "virus" just works better. It's even specified in the dictionary, actually.

    7. Re:better idea by c0lo · · Score: 1

      I have often seen "virii" used as the plural.

      Which is weird, given there's no "virius" as a noun (which would have the virii as the plural form)

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
  8. Just great... by Hylandr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Now the hardware can be ground to a halt without ever loading an OS.

    Given the choice of McAfee or malware at this level, I would choose the malware.

    - Dan.

    --
    ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    1. Re:Just great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given the choice of McAfee or malware at this level, I would choose the malware.

      - Dan.

      Tell me again what the difference is?

    2. Re:Just great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      agreed...McAfee, svchost.exe.....'nuff said

    3. Re:Just great... by xMrFishx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Given the choice of McAfee or malware at this level, I would choose the malware.

      - Dan.

      Tell me again what the difference is?

      You can remove malware.

    4. Re:Just great... by RobbieThe1st · · Score: 1

      Mod prent funny... but true.

    5. Re:Just great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      McAfee takes your money then gets on your computer. Malware gets on your computer then takes your money.

    6. Re:Just great... by libkarl2 · · Score: 1

      Given the choice of McAfee or malware at this level, I would choose the malware.

      - Dan.

      Tell me again what the difference is?

      TCO.

      --
      You are where you are at the time you are there.
    7. Re:Just great... by flappinbooger · · Score: 1

      I think the only reason McAfee still exists is because of their deals with ISPs and product placement at WalMart. Certainly not because of their reputation in the security industry.

      Oh, and because they just get bought out ... by Intel. Yeah. And here we all thought (hoped) Intel would let McAfee die quietly in the corner.

      Is this a more annoying version of data execute prevention? Maybe call it DERP?

      --
      Flappinbooger isn't my real name
    8. Re:Just great... by Kagetsuki · · Score: 1

      ditto, I wish I had mod points. Nice zing there.

    9. Re:Just great... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Given the choice of McAfee or malware at this level, I would choose the malware.

      - Dan.

      Tell me again what the difference is?

      Most malware doesn't make your computer unusable.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    10. Re:Just great... by That+Guy+From+Mrktng · · Score: 1

      That, and extorting ISPs in developing nations to shove "McAfee Security mumbo jumbo 2012 think of the children" shit FREE for anyone clueless about the bag of fail that McAfee is.

  9. Rootkit Making Tool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is great, sounds like a tool that would be great for MAKING new rootkits, actually.

    Also, you can make sure that yours is hidden even from hardware-based antivirus. .... paranoia asside, it is the right way to go... but I don't really think McAfee will put a dent in serious viruses.... they still don't even detect ircphate...

    1. Re:Rootkit Making Tool by SmurfButcher+Bob · · Score: 1

      I can see version 1.0 of this product including provisions for Sony.

      --

      help me i've cloned myself and can't remember which one I am

  10. turtles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    it's turtles all the way down!

  11. Might as well just return to the Tandy 1000 days by dsanfte · · Score: 2

    With a core operating system in ROM, mounted as a system disk. Flash your new OS like a BIOS.

    That'd stop a lot of this rootkit crap cold, wouldn't it?

    --
    occultae nullus est respectus musicae - originally a Greek proverb
  12. Social Engineering by AJNeufeld · · Score: 2

    Yet another technology to confuse the end users. There will be countless 3rd party versions of this, due to anti-competition legislations, a significant portion which will be "free" or "lower cost alternatives" and not do what it promises to do.

    Nothing should get between the OS and the metal. The OS should be smart enough to watchdog all processes.

    1. Re:Social Engineering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Theres plenty of things that go between the OS and the metal, such as hypervisors, firmware etc.

  13. Problems: by Tastecicles · · Score: 2

    OK, this is another layer to slow the system down before the OS is even loaded.

    Where's the UI? Via the OS? Is McCaffee writing a UI for NT, Mac OS, Linux...? Fine, so develop a sandbox then they write the circumvention saving the script kiddies the bother...

    --
    Operation Guillotine is in effect.
  14. Does anybody really want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    McAfee that deep and cozy with the bare hardware?

  15. Not much of an article by Pete+Venkman · · Score: 1

    What a waste of bits. The article didn't talk about much more than what was in the summary.

    1. Re:Not much of an article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you must be new here.

  16. We're heading for the days of DRM everything... by garcia · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Beginning back in 2003 I talked about the future of computing which will include DRM in the BIOS. I have posted numerous times about it and even once noted DRM'd BIOSs will eventually be required to connect to the "safe" Internet.

    We're one step closer now with this... Oh looky, we have the perfect way to stop this from happening. A totally secure DRM'd BIOS. Just use our product and the secure Internet won't have any spyware/malware/etc.

    Oh, and in order to do online banking, pay the electric bill, connect to webmail from Google, etc will all require you to have a DRM-enabled BIOS.

    IPs may not point to an individual computer but the DRM'd BIOS sure will.

    1. Re:We're heading for the days of DRM everything... by RobbieThe1st · · Score: 1

      Yeah, true. Unfortunately, it won't solve the problem. Someone'll just get control of one of the signing keys, and then we'll have non-removable, trusted malware!

    2. Re:We're heading for the days of DRM everything... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Beginning back in 2003 I talked about the future of computing which will include DRM in the BIOS. I have posted numerous times about it and even once noted DRM'd BIOSs will eventually be required to connect to the "safe" Internet.

      We're one step closer now with this... Oh looky, we have the perfect way to stop this from happening. A totally secure DRM'd BIOS. Just use our product and the secure Internet won't have any spyware/malware/etc.

      The reason I'm not afraid of such a thing is that it can't work. As soon as the "safe internet" is launched, it'll be immediately proven to be no more secure than the internet we have now. When it gets broken, who's going to want to pay for it? And there won't be any keeping secrets about it. Everyone who cares will know it broke, since it's on the internet.

    3. Re:We're heading for the days of DRM everything... by c0lo · · Score: 1

      We're one step closer now with this... Oh looky, we have the perfect way to stop this from happening. A totally secure DRM'd BIOS. Just use our product and the secure Internet won't have any spyware/malware/etc.

      Secured BIOS doesn't automatically mean the sky is falling on a DRM-ed world (I can have one of the OpenBIOS variant secured).

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    4. Re:We're heading for the days of DRM everything... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2

      It doesn't matter if it's really more secure. It only matters if it is perceived as being more secure. If you don't believe it, go to the next airport.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    5. Re:We're heading for the days of DRM everything... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've been fearmongering for 8 years about something that will never happen.
      I remember way back when TPM's were a giant epic scare about how computers would get "locked down to where you couldnt do anything". And now everything has a TPM and they arent used for anything unless you, the user, enable it AND install software.

      Since 2003, computers and the internet have become MASSIVELY more prevalant, and at the base reality of it, nothing has really changed. And i can not rationally foresee any real changes towards the worst case ever happening. Especially in the face of things like anonymous and lulzsec and the EFF.

      Get over your paranoia, but keep fighting the good fight.

    6. Re:We're heading for the days of DRM everything... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "You've been fearmongering for 8 years about something that will never happen."

      Steam and free2play games online are already happening (enlosure) through simply having new generations grow up with things being that way. Most kids don't give a shit about DRM. They just want to play.

    7. Re:We're heading for the days of DRM everything... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter if it's really more secure. It only matters if it is perceived as being more secure. If you don't believe it, go to the next airport.

      The thing is, people don't even believe that is more secure. The problem is that they believe that the people doing those stupid things in the airports are genuinely trying to make things more secure. If we can get people to understand that the TSA is not trying to make airports more secure (the TSA is merely trying to get people to think they are trying to make airports more secure), then we can perhaps get them on board to fixing the problem (both the problem of making the airport more secure and the problem of the TSA infringing on our freedom).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    8. Re:We're heading for the days of DRM everything... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tinfoil hat much? What does DRM have to do with this anyway?

    9. Re:We're heading for the days of DRM everything... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Processors already have ID's

  17. Has little windows to look in at the bytes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It sits beyond the operating system and close to the silicon, and by operating beyond the OS, it provides a direct view of system memory and processor activity."
    Has she got little windows to look in at the bytes going by or bye?

  18. Re:Might as well just return to the Tandy 1000 day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And require physical manipulation, e.g. jumper or dipswitch, to flash that ROM in case you want to re-install/upgrade OS.
    While write mode is ON the box is isolated from rest of the internet.
    At this point you only have to make sure that your update isn't infected. This can be easily verified using public key embedded in the current OS assuming that the vendor hasn't pulled a DigiNotar.

  19. One more thing to pwn! by Sarusa · · Score: 2

    'it provides a direct view of system memory and processor activity, allowing McAfee products to gain an additional vantage point in the computing stack'

    So it's visible from the OS. Now we have another vector of attack. How long before it's exploited to create even deeper rootkits, eh? Unless it's completely uncrackable, like the PS3.

    1. Re:One more thing to pwn! by v1 · · Score: 1

      It may simply be something that runs on a parallel level with the main processor, that has access (read/write) to the main system, but that cannot be modified (or even detected) by the main system. Not a bad place for AV software really. But as several have pointed out, it has to allow the user at some point to make changes/updates to it, and that means users will be letting zero-day nasties get into the protected space and then you're hosed good.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    2. Re:One more thing to pwn! by RobbieThe1st · · Score: 1

      I dunno. Sitting between the processor and the OS... Sounds a lot like a Linux system running Windows in a VM. And, they are right, that *would* improve matters, thanks to snapshots and virtual hardware. :P

    3. Re:One more thing to pwn! by Sarusa · · Score: 1

      I'm not reading this as a hypervisor (though it's a good idea) - it certainly could be, but they're not providing enough detail and there are already hypervisors out there.

      The FAQ on this thing isn't really a FAQ, it's just marketing bullshit, but they keep talking about the DeepSAFE hardware working in concert with the MacAfee software - there might not even be any anti-virus software as such running on the DeepSAFE hardware itself.

      That sounds more like a JTAG-type debugger for the CPU that lets software running on the PC get a raw look at the contents of memory and various CPU registers and bits while completely bypassing all of the OS/CPU controls on that.

      Which of course would also be great for malware to have access to as well.

    4. Re:One more thing to pwn! by Just+Brew+It! · · Score: 1

      My take on it is that it is in fact some sort of hypervisor. The "hardware assist" they refer to is probably nothing more than VT-X/VT-D (or possibly some minor variation thereof). I find it a pretty big stretch to believe that Intel would spend a lot of effort developing a major new hardware feature just to accommodate McAfee.

    5. Re:One more thing to pwn! by Sarusa · · Score: 1

      I was thinking this was for Ivy Bridge or Haswell - Intel /bought/ McAfee, so adding extra future hardware support is somewhat plausible.

      But now I see a 'The technology is expected to launch in products later in 2011' line, and Ivy Bridge isn't till 2012, so you're probably right.

    6. Re:One more thing to pwn! by RobbieThe1st · · Score: 1

      It'd also be great for breaking any sort of drm that relies on privledged apps in the OS. Great!

    7. Re:One more thing to pwn! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just hope it doesn't become another issue to deal with for anyone not running Microsoft Windows

    8. Re:One more thing to pwn! by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 1

      It's simply a layer under the OS, and (hopefully) read only, but it will still have bugs and exploits, and these are ones the OS can do nothing about ... ...and what's the betting that if someone decides that is malware, you can do nothing about it ...

      My machine is mine, not Microsoft's, not McAffee's ...

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
  20. Cat and Mouse by EMG+at+MU · · Score: 2
    What is going to be different about this software layer?

    Is it going to be written in some new magical language that prevents programmers from fucking up and having buffer overflow/underflow or other common problems that you see in C and C++, the most likely languages that this kind of software would be written in?

    Just today there was an article on ./ about BIOS infections. Isn't the BIOS a layer between the OS and "silicon". Sure, the BIOS wasn't written to be a security layer but just because a software layer is below the OS doesn't mean that is is immune to being exploited.

    From TFA:

    Provides real time CPU event monitoring with minimal performance impact.

    (bold tags added by me)
    Bullshit. Just like normal AV has minimal performance impact now.

    Besides all of the obvious reasons that this is just another gimmick by McAfee to get more $$ from corporate IT departments with MBA directors that don't even know what the "silicon" in the marketing press release, sorry "article" means, when this gets exploited and there are viri for this layer I bet McAfee will have a AV for this layer to sell.

  21. Oh, thats not what first comes to mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "and by operating beyond the OS, it provides a direct view of system memory and processor activity."

    I thought you meant "Seal Team 6 and a bullet between the eyes" beyond the operating system.

  22. xzibit by Georules · · Score: 1

    I rootkitted your rootkit so you can rootkit while you rootkit.

  23. Been doing the same 4 DECADES already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Via tools U already own: Windows Install Media (read-only), & it's RECOVERY CONSOLE - Fixmbr, Disable, & Listsvc are all you needed to "take out" anything in the way of rootkits (or, those combined w/ botnets + "3rd party malware" they download & use)... it works & has worked recently.

    Even vs. the last allegedly "indestructible botnet" & it's hello_tt.sys bootsector protectant driver... which disable from RC stalls on reboots, then it's fixmbr to blowout the MBR$ infesting rootkit itself.

    (Listsvc's only for seeing driver &/or service names + their load states, etc. (when you don't know the name of the rootkit's driver, IF ANY, most rootkits don't use that & a "phalanx" formation extra driver protector either though, luckily, not yet @ least))

    In the case of the "allegedly indestructible rootkit", this worked, in perhaps @ most, 3 min. time...

    (Especially for those that know & recognize valid service &/or driver names used by Windows itself too, saves time googling from another system for driver &/or service names + purposes).

    APK

    P.S.=> The weakness the "allegedly indestructible rootkit" had is that it's driver also didn't protect ITSELF @ the registry driver parameterization itself...

    Now, think about that, given the tools I've been using for ages vs. rootkits - IF it did that? The technique above might not have worked vs. it!

    This one this article's about?? Looks like a mean cookie what-with the BIOS being thrown into the mix as well... to me @ least?? It'd mean time.

    Time tp bootstrap from a DOS bootdisk with bios flashware & latest/greatest ROM for that mobo, & reburn that too - timeconsuming b.s.!

    However, not avoiding it - it would NEED TO BE DONE, otherwise that rigs "permanently hosed" - period. It's @ BIOS hardware ROM level then, have to cleanse it or it's typhoid Mary basically... anyhow...

    Know the tools you already own - they can do a hell of a job in minutes on rootkits of ANY kind (MBR, driver driven, or a "blended threat" that uses both)...

    ... apk

    1. Re:Been doing the same 4 DECADES already by lennier · · Score: 1

      Been doing the same 4 DECADES already

      You've been doing virus removal for 40 years? I guess you got your start on OS/360!

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
  24. Translation: by jrbrtsn · · Score: 1

    McAfee thinks that Microsoft will never be able to write a secure OS, so they are taking matters into their own hands.

    1. Re:Translation: by Tastecicles · · Score: 2

      why on Earth would they do something so drastic as put themselves out of a job?

      --
      Operation Guillotine is in effect.
    2. Re:Translation: by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      McAfee thinks that Microsoft will never be able to write a secure OS, so they are taking matters into their own hands.

      No, McAfee is afraid Microsoft will write a secure OS (or at least an malware detector/remover better than McAfee's), so they want to put an insecure layer beneath Microsoft's OS so that they can ensure that they will still have a business going forward (with the bonus of being able to sell info to the MAFIAA to limit people's ability to copy non-copyrighted work).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  25. Wrong problem to solve by i_ate_god · · Score: 2

    Considering the vast majority of attacks relies on human stupidity, why don't we try to solve that problem first. Security should be part of the educational package in high schools. How to be secure with your digital life.

    But rather than call it security, just call it safety. Kids have to be taught how to be safe in all sorts of situations, computers shouldn't be any different.

    --
    I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
    1. Re:Wrong problem to solve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah the *RIGHT* problem to solve is to make the bios read only. Problem solved. Want to write to it. Must move a jumper...

    2. Re:Wrong problem to solve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering the vast majority of attacks relies on human stupidity, why don't we try to solve that problem first.

      End human stupidity? Good luck trying that.

    3. Re:Wrong problem to solve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good luck with that. You cannot educate out human traits like curiosity, laziness, greed, fear, etc. that cause most people to forego best practices and infect themselves.

  26. Co-developed with Intel by airfoobar · · Score: 2

    FYI, Intel owns McAfee now. This sounds like something between Trend ChipAwayVirus, a hardware debugger and draconian DRM.

  27. Re:Might as well just return to the Tandy 1000 day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can it stop God? You've picked a side.

    10 i = i + 1
    15 IF i > 99999 THEN PRINT ".";: i = 0
    20 IF INKEY$ = "" THEN 10
    30 PRINT "King James Bible, Line:", i

    Line:46410
    7:12 If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and
    made it ready.

    7:13 He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he
    ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors.

    7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief,
    and brought forth falsehood.

    7:15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which
    he made.

  28. Pre-Boot Antivirus by a_nonamiss · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I use an Ubuntu USB drive that I created for the specific purpose of scanning systems before they boot into the OS. It won't detect malware in real-time, but it should, in theory, catch a root kit that's well hidden from being detected within the OS. What I don't understand is why there's not something commercial out there that does this. With my home-made drive, I can boot, mount a truecrypt volume (all our computers are truecrypted) and scan a Windows file system with several different free tools. The only problem is, since they are free, they tend to be not very good. I scanned a system I was working with yesterday, and ClamAV, Avast!, BitDefender and AVG all missed a boot sector virus. The system was clearly infected, judging by all the BSODs and other strange behavior, but all these tools came up clean. They were also slow as hell. Each scan took hours. Finally, I attached the hard drive to a Windows machine and ESET picked up the virus right away, although it wasn't able to clean it. Had to download a separate tool from Kaspersky to do that.

    What I'm saying is most of the stuff I did is not accessible to the unwashed masses. On top of that, I would actually pay good money for a tool that I could use and not have to screw with 5 different immature anti-virus platforms that could be used to remove rootkits. Nothing about this virus was particularly fancy, once you got it outside of the OS. (It loaded kernel mode drivers to prevent it from being seen within Windows.) Why don't one of the major players start looking into something like this? Bootable, able to update definitions over the Internet and fast. I, and probably my company, would pay really good money for that.

    --
    -Arthur
    Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules
    1. Re:Pre-Boot Antivirus by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      The system was clearly infected, judging by all the BSODs and other strange behavior, but all these tools came up clean.

      Malware writers do one of two things:
      1) Write custom code and/or
      2) Use off the shelf encryptors

      Then they submit their code to multiple scanners until it comes up clean.
      And there's a brisk business in encryptors that will hide your code from the 20~30 most common virus scanners.

      The specific terminology escapes me because it's been so long.
      I just vaguely remember it all this from one guy who hung out on IRC and liked to talk about his botnet.
      He'd spend hours combing malware forums for the latest encryptor that wouldn't be picked up by n+1 scanners.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:Pre-Boot Antivirus by randyleepublic · · Score: 0

      Really! I asked this same question, like 3 years ago. But then again, why don't we have a monetary system that does not self-destruct on ever-mounting debt, and does not destroy the nation by demanding production and storage of a commodity like gold? Why? Why? Why?

      Because people are fucking stupid. "Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth." - Arthur Conan Doyle

      --
      Social Credit would solve everything...
    3. Re:Pre-Boot Antivirus by Anachragnome · · Score: 1

      "What I don't understand is why there's not something commercial out there that does this."

      There is no point.

      The developers of malware, spyware, virii, etc. all use a base-pack of popular AV software as quality control filters--if anything in the pack catches what they just wrote, it's back to the drawing board until it DOES pass. Any commercial package would be used for the same purpose and would quickly be what AV is today--one step behind the bad guys. The reason I say all of them use such tactics is quite simple--it would be a huge waste of time to NOT do so, considering how easy it is to get the exact, updated-daily, quality assurance tools you need to do the job--most being free.

      For those that care for references, one of the emails from the HBGary/Anon leak specifically mentioned HBGary doing exactly that--using existing AV as a QA filter for spyware development.

      A related aside: I came across a version of this virus on a Dell laptop that I was trying to fix for someone--three years ago. It even evaded re-flashing the BIOS. The only reason that I noticed it was that there was a blank DOS-like window that briefly flashed across the screen during the BIOS boot, instead of the logo swap that the virus in the article used (slick!). That is the only time I have ever seen that happen on any machine and it immediately made me suspicious.It appears it has taken them sometime to fine-tune this virus.

      As much as I hate the things, some of these virii are works of pure genius. Misguided, yes, but still genius.

    4. Re:Pre-Boot Antivirus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not just boot Windows, with your AV of choice installed, off another USB drive?

    5. Re:Pre-Boot Antivirus by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      I use a Dr Web LiveCD. That cleans out a hefty chunk of the rubbish people manage to infest their machine with.

      Saying that, I've found no better antivirus tool than NOD32. I've not tried loading it on a BartPE LiveCD, but it's tempting. If I can make that a bootable USB stick, all the better.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    6. Re:Pre-Boot Antivirus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like a Kaspersky ad all this...

    7. Re:Pre-Boot Antivirus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What I'm saying is most of the stuff I did is not accessible to the unwashed masses.

      I'd be careful about who I refer to as unwashed masses. Ubuntu boot disks with various manual antivirus scanners etc sounds like the realm of the sweaty nerd to me. You don;t look like Richard Stallman, do you?

    8. Re:Pre-Boot Antivirus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, serious question: why spend hours looking for new encryption when tools like 'shikata ga nai' (in Metasploit) and virustotal.com can be used to mangle things and test them to be adequately hidden? Especially for botnets, which are all about farming as many n00b-boxen as possible, not APT-caliber stealth?

      Then again, anyone that yammers about their awesome botpharm and and combs forums for scripts makes me think scriptkiddy.

    9. Re:Pre-Boot Antivirus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it was tried once. an el torrito bootable cd-rom called 'trinity rescue disc' it found a virus on my sister's computer but not all of it, because the payload wonked windows out after exposure.

  29. security always matter of tension by allursolve · · Score: 1

    i think, here also need to add that spyware also great problem for PC users. we need enough protection against it.

  30. Uhhh, you mean TPM! by Giant+Electronic+Bra · · Score: 2

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module

    Not a new idea at all. Heck, many existing mother boards support it.

    --
    "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
  31. CommonSense 2011 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All computer users need it; few computer users have it.

  32. Yeah, exactly by Giant+Electronic+Bra · · Score: 1

    Any new layer of software like this will be complex enough to be hackable and has to be maintained, so it has to have ways to get into it. Even with TPM or some similar scheme there are ALWAYS weaknesses, timing attacks, back doors, bad implementation, etc.

    --
    "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
  33. Why not just boot from CD? by Hentes · · Score: 2

    Why don't they make a bootable antirootkit like bitdefender? That's the easiest solution to the problem. Getting closer to the metal is an uphill battle because eventually malware writers will figure out how to get there themselves, and the situation just becomes worse. In fact, as antivirus software get more and more privileges they beacome more and more like viruses. Cannot be closed, always running in the background, inspects/modifies/deletes files without your permission. Sometimes I wonder if the reason of not fixing OS bugs is that Microsoft is afraid to make AVs incompatible.

    1. Re:Why not just boot from CD? by c0lo · · Score: 2

      Why don't they make a bootable antirootkit like bitdefender?

      How could McAfee slow down your OS if you boot from CD?

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    2. Re:Why not just boot from CD? by vetman · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter how you boot, CD, ROM, Write Protected Disk...Now in the internet age, if your machine is vulnerable you will reboot clean and be re-infected. We need to write better software.

    3. Re:Why not just boot from CD? by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      How could McAfee slow down your OS if you boot from CD?

      By forcing your CD drive and HD to run in PIO mode?

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    4. Re:Why not just boot from CD? by c0lo · · Score: 1

      How could McAfee slow down your OS if you boot from CD?

      By forcing your CD drive and HD to run in PIO mode?

      PIO mode? Well, that's blinding fast. They'd better do something with the bytes they a readying one-by-one into CPU registries - like scanning them for malware... multiple times... reading them again when they fail to find a certain piece of malware...

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    5. Re:Why not just boot from CD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      McAfee will always find a way.

  34. Re:Might as well just return to the Tandy 1000 day by Solandri · · Score: 1

    That's what I was thinking. A SATA/USB3 adapter I bought has a jumper to make the drive read-only. That got me thinking - why can't we have a hardware toggle switch to make the boot drive read-only? You can't root it if you can't modify any of the bootable system files, or if you do manage it a reboot will clear it up. Yeah you'd have to toggle the drive writeable to install new software or update. But is there really any point to leaving the boot drive writeable when you're not updating or installing?

  35. Re:Might as well just return to the Tandy 1000 day by microphage · · Score: 1

    "Might as well just return to the Tandy 1000 days With a core operating system in ROM, mounted as a system disk. Flash your new OS like a BIOS. That'd stop a lot of this rootkit crap cold, wouldn't it?"

    That solution wouldn't work with today's `innovative' desktop operating systems and besides there's no money in your solution ..

  36. Immutable OSes by gswallow · · Score: 2

    Bah. Back around the turn of the century I constructed the most hack-proof OS install ever. My FreeBSD-running-Squid solution mounted the entire OS off of a CD-ROM, created a 2MB RAM disk, mounted it as /etc and copied the entire /etc directory from floppy disk. After booting, it unmounted the floppy disk and I called the NOC to eject it, creating a 1cm air gap between the read-write heads of the floppy drive to the floppy disk contents. The collocation space and bandwidth were free and the floppies and CD-Rs cost $.10 each. If I ever suspected rootkits I would just shut the machine down as I had half a dozen of these 1U servers, at $100 each off eBay! Take that cloud computing and McAfee ROMs!

    --
    Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.
    1. Re:Immutable OSes by itsme1234 · · Score: 1

      Nope.
      Immutable means no updates = nothing to prevent the malware from getting back in once you rebooted the box. Unless your idea of security is pulling the cord and leave it like that.
      There were worms that used RAM-only and would not survive a reboot, for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witty_(computer_worm) (this would only destroy data on hdd but not install there).

  37. Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would suspect this would be more for MBR exploits than anything else. On the other hand, if they are going to try to sample instructions in real time, they would not need to sit between anything as a majority of people on here seem to suggest, they could simply send an interrupt whenever something is detected... just like every other piece of hardware on the system does. My only concern would be is how they handle the interrupts, if it halts the system, blocks processes etc it would be relatively simple for someone to write code to effectively brick motherboards.

    1. Re:Really? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      If they send an interrupt, a root kit could simply redirect that interrupt to itself and then return without doing anything else. It then would be as if that interrupt never occurred.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  38. sheesh by alienzed · · Score: 2

    why can't people just stop allowing themselves to be tricked. Trust the internet like you'd trust any stranger and you'll be OK.

    --
    Never say never. Ah!! I did it again!
  39. Re:Might as well just return to the Tandy 1000 day by jackbird · · Score: 1

    Windows on a cartridge sure would deter piracy...

  40. Too busy with current commitments by syousef · · Score: 1

    Why doesn't McAfee just write an OS?

    Too busy writing software to destroy performance on Windows. Can't spare any staff otherwise someone out there on a PC infected with^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hrunning McAfee might get some work done. What if that were the accountant? He might close the company account with McAfee!

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  41. Re:Might as well just return to the Tandy 1000 day by S77IM · · Score: 1

    It's our only sure defense against the Cylon menace!

    --
    Student: Is it true that the foundation of the universe is paradox?
    Master: Well, yes and no.
  42. Re:Might as well just return to the Tandy 1000 day by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

    Can it stop God?

    God only infects human brains, not computers.

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  43. You're all wrong. for the second time in 24 hours by ka9dgx · · Score: 2

    As I pointed out less than 24 hours ago in response to a similar story... (mods in brackets)

    I keep watch on "security" threads like this one, hoping to find sanity in at least one answer prior to mine.... and keep getting disappointed.

    You're all wrong, so far. [Well, all but about 5 of you... progress is being made]

    Why? It's simple, it's not a [Trusted Platform / Virus scanning] issue, it's an Operating System design issue.

    The default permit environment present in everything except IBM's VM is the root cause of 99% of our problems. [Yes, including this one, trusting something not to install a rootkit once it gets past the virus scanner]

    Instead of giving each PROCESS a list of resources and permissions, Linux, OS-X, Windows, and pretty much everything else, does it at the USER level. (Yes, I know about app-armor, but that's a special case[, and isn't dynamic enough to do a proper job of capabilities])

    This means that all of the defenses are pointed in the wrong direction. (Imagine building a fort with 10 foot thick perimeter wall as its sole defense in the age of paratroopers and helicopters to get an idea of the scale of the problem). [In this case, they claim to have better walls]

    It doesn't matter how careful or professionally trained the application programmers are, nor how safe the programming language used to write the application is, when the OS isn't even designed to limit what they can do. All programs have bugs, you shouldn't have to trust them not to have them.

    Now, those skills and language enhancements are useful for building the operating system, especially when constructing the micro-kernel to run everything, so it's not wasted effort. [However... virus scanners are a waste, as we shouldn't need them at all]

    I predict we'll see stories like this for at least 10 more years [well... that's #2 in the first 24 hours], regardless of the effort or money put in, because we haven't [corrected] our approach yet. It's going to take a few more years until the cognitive dissonance gets loud enough in peoples heads to prompt them to find a better OS, and a few more years to actually have something reasonably solid available. Until then, buckle up... it's going to be a VERY bumpy ride.

  44. Does it detect compromised electrons? by user+flynn · · Score: 1

    What about the botnet comprised of all the electrons in the solar system? :D Everyone is rooted....

    --
    In the distance you hear an ominous moo.
  45. Put this in your HOSTS file by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    0.0.0.0 dh.3515.info , because this rootkit uses it (as a C&C/Payloads Server). That blocks it.

    * You're welcome "in advance"...

    APK

    P.S.=> I like what you said: Clever, & amusing enough of a play on words though from you, I have to admit, lol!

    However, & as to actual time involved using it on my part? Well, I have been using that basic technique since the days of the 1st Recovery Conole for Windows NT-based OS, 1999 or so.

    It just works!

    (But, there are limits to it, like anything else - I outlined a possible & a design of rootkit that would evade destruction, vs. MY METHOD THAT'S NEVER FAILED ME ON ROOTKIT DESTRUCTION, & simply by improving its "phalanx" formation MBR$ infestor portion, & specifically, it's bootsector backup driver -> hello_tty.sys (e.g. from the "allegedly indestructible rootkit" recently (very destructible via the method I use)).

    So again: Since, oh, 1999-2000 right @ its introduction, so, working on 2 decades...

    I like it, as it's very useful vs. rootkits of MOST designs, be they driver based, or MBR$ infector based, or a "blended threat" of both combined...

    ... apk

  46. It will work great until a BIOS virus appears. by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

    Oh, wait.

  47. Re:You're all wrong. for the second time in 24 hou by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

    It doesn't matter how careful or professionally trained the application programmers are, nor how safe the programming language used to write the application is, when the OS isn't even designed to limit what they can do. All programs have bugs, you shouldn't have to trust them not to have them.

    By extension, it doesn't matter how careful or professionally trained the operating system programmers are, because all operating systems have bugs. I completely agree.

    It's time to start requiring formal verification of all system software so that it doesn't matter how bad the programmers are; if a simple proof verifier that is stored in the BIOS can't validate a proof of correctness at the machine code level for the boot sector it loads, it won't jump to it. The formally correct boot loader would then load the OS and its correctness proof and verify it before starting the OS. Part of the correctness proof would be showing that no modification of the BIOS, boot loader, or OS can occur unless the modification also has a valid proof that follows a security policy stored in the BIOS. Don't ever allow the initial proof verifier or the security policy to be modified. Prove the correctness (with regard to the axioms of set theory, at least) of the proof verifier's machine code in the same language, and the proof verifier can even verify itself every time it boots. Of course, you could claim that all mathematical proofs have bugs in them and that there's no way to trust the proof verifier to be correct. But then you might as well distrust ZF and most of mathematics by extension.

  48. Re:You're all wrong. for the second time in 24 hou by ka9dgx · · Score: 1

    The whole operating system doesn't need formal verification, just the kernel. If it does its job, then there is no point at which a rootkit will be given access to the underlying hardware, and thus it won't be installed.

  49. OS = Microsoft Windows by catmistake · · Score: 1

    There... translated the ambiguous abbreviation in teh summery for ya.... oh, sure... we had a rootkit in UNIX before, but its such rare treat its actually quite valuable. For all intensive purposes, the OP should have just said "Windows," but its likely he's never heard of any other OS. So, again, in the summary,

    OS = Microsoft Windows

  50. Re:Might as well just return to the Tandy 1000 day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With a core operating system in ROM, mounted as a system disk. Flash your new OS like a BIOS.

    That'd stop a lot of this rootkit crap cold, wouldn't it?

    Yes it would. Also it would leave most of the users vulnerable because no one would bother to patch the os if he had to mess with jumpers or hardware switches and if you did it updatable by software malware would get easily in.

    There was some pretty straightforward method method for detecting rootkits making use of their cloaking (read about it on /. can't remeber in which article). You make a file listing of the whole disk while os runs (rootkit is hidden). Then take out the disk and make a file listing on another machine (rootkit isn't hidden). Compare lists, deal with files which are there in second list but missing in first.

  51. Pre-Boot Antivirus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really, McAfee? They have absolutely zero credibility with me. If only they had a stable and useful retail antivirus product... Nearly every machine I've ever serviced (I do this for a living) with McAfee installed has had problems that were cured by removing the McAfee product and going with another well known vendor. I'm talking dozens of machines over the past five or six years.

    Who knows, it sounds like a potentially useful and interesting idea but not from these guys. They're just marketing sharks.

    Rob

  52. Re:You're all wrong. for the second time in 24 hou by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A rootkit doesn't need to involve hardware. It can be an OS patch, or a driver, which simply filters out any data that would show the presence of the rook kit.

    If your kernel allows neither replacing the kernel with a different one, nor installing drivers, don't expect your OS to be usable for anything outside the embedded world.

  53. So nice by ckshop · · Score: 1

    Now the hardware can be ground to a halt without ever loading an OS. Given the choice of McAfee or malware at this level, I would choose the malware. John air max shoes

  54. Do it in software. by bytesex · · Score: 1

    Make the first thing that happens during boot or a windows-install, the set-up of a VM. Let the VM monitor the OS.

    --
    Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
  55. Re:Might as well just return to the Tandy 1000 day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    hmm interesting. Let's say you have the OS read-only, then you can have a differences virtual drive that loads on boot. Now if your OS get's scrambled you will always be able to return to the stock OS. Kind of like 'last known good' but better.
    However looking at the Win8 preview there does seem to be something similar there but I've not explored it yet.

  56. a better solution by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

    fix the OS

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
  57. Blue Pill + McAffee = Antivirus you can't remove! by killfixx · · Score: 1

    This is a terrible execution of a seemingly fantastic idea. McAffee(sp?) is known for accidentally hosing untold numbers of business machines with 1 (yes, one) update! How can we allow them this much control over our compute environment?

    Also, this would appear to be why Intel had to have McAffee. Antivirus on die? Pretty much the definition of CISC.

    Well, here's to updating your antivirus and accidentally bricking your CPU.

    --
    "Helping to keep you two steps ahead of the Thought Police!"
  58. Remove these glorified rootkits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    We need less of this not more. The more ways there are to elevate power for AV, the more possibilities there are to elevate power for rootkits.
    Bios should not be writable when OS is running. MBR should not be writable when os is running. Code injection, debugginh and hooking, while neat, should be removed, except when the program INVITES an intruder. Drivers should only have access to things explicitly enumerated to the user: a graph card driver only to graph card, keyboard only to keyboard. Drivers not from manufacturer should give extensive warnings, with long forced waiting times before ok is clicked.

  59. Re:You're all wrong. for the second time in 24 hou by ka9dgx · · Score: 1

    Kernels can be replaced in real time, it's been done in Linux.

    Something in hardware (which is implied in this new technology) has to be updateable in order to resist threats over time. It too will have the same critical points as any system which doesn't trust the code running on it.

    A capabilities based operating system would have about the same attack surface because it wouldn't trust anything by default, the opposite of the way things are now.

    Instead of deploying a new hardware stack, isn't it better to just fix the software stack we already have?

  60. I don't even trust McAfee with my OS by introcept · · Score: 1

    and I'm not letting them any near my CPU.

  61. Re:Might as well just return to the Tandy 1000 day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, most, if not all, rootkit scanners are like this. Compile a list of files and registry entries using the API and compare this against a list generated by the rootkit developer's method of reading the filesystem and registry file directly.

  62. Worse, much much worse! by Kamiza+Ikioi · · Score: 1

    It means it's Windows all the way down. Linux would be indistinguishable from malware in a hard coded, unflashable, secure chip. MS can lock up large vendor machines by claiming security, and letting Intel do the dirty work. Does anyone honestly think they'll hard code every alternative OS? Unless it is specific, it's useless. Malware can run a rootkit as a linux kernel. Also, what's to say that it wouldn't block a new kernel release even if it was whitelisted.

    Goodbye Tux, we barely knew you.

    --
    I8-D
  63. Lucky coincidence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well well, isn't that a remarkably lucky coincidence?

  64. Sounds strangely familiar... by Andrewkov · · Score: 1

    ALAN: It's called Tron. It's a security program itself, actually. Monitors all the contacts between our system and other systems... If it finds anything going on that's not scheduled, it shuts it down. I sent you a memo on it.

    DILLINGER: Mmm. Part of the Master Control Program?

    ALAN: No, it'll run independently. It can watchdog the MCP as well.

    DILLINGER: Ah. Sounds good. Well, we should have you running again in a couple of days, I hope...

    Alan rises, goes to the door. As soon as he leaves:

    The Master Control Program comes back to life, on the screen and through the speakers.

    MCP: Ed, I am so very disappointed in you.

  65. Attached Proof that dh.3515.info = bogus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  66. Market speak, but it will solve one problem... by hAckz0r · · Score: 1
    This is completely vapourware at this point, so the article is worthless for most slashdotters at this point.

    But the article is significant, in that this marks the beginning of the battle for ring -1 in the security products market. Personally I am 'root'ing for QubesOS to show the way, but having any COTS product on the market for Windows would be a good thing. Why? Because if you have a processor with the VT-x capability and you are not loading in a ring -1 hypervisor then one can be inserted under your OS by Malware, and you would never know its there. Its a race to be the first software package/Malware to implant itself and have total domination over what gets loaded next. You may think you are running at the ring -1 level, but other than timing tests on certain CPU instructions it would be very hard to tell that you don't and a new Malicious Overlord. IMHO it would be wise to load even a dummy hypervisor in ring -1 rather than just letting a virtualizing rootkit become the master of your domain.

  67. Re:Might as well just return to the Tandy 1000 day by djdanlib · · Score: 1

    Well, yes, until some malware author reverse engineered the updater software, learned how to duplicate the bypass-the-write-protect-mechanism code that allows flashing, and then used that to inject his own code. That would take all of the next day after it hit the store shelves, at most. Have you heard of malware that alters the BIOS? There are a few prior examples of such a thing. CIH was doing that in 1998, for example. Mebromi does that today.

    So, no, it wouldn't stop it, unless you had to purchase and install a new physical ROM chip as your upgrade process. Nobody would go for that, though... too expensive to manufacture the parts, too fragile, too scary for non-geeks!

    You'd still have regular viruses and such that were installed in the "regular" filesystem, though, so rootkits would still exist. Someone could make a virus that installs as a driver, which does NOT have the prerequisite of controlling hardware nor does it have to be visible to the user. That could get high-level access to the system, and you'd never know it. That happens today. It's been happening since at least 1999, when Infis was discovered. Remember the Sony rootkit, too!

  68. A $100 solution to a $1 problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This problem was solved many years ago when mainboards had a jumper that you had to move to flash the BIOS and they also had a bit of code in the BIOS to write protect the MBR. These two simple features effectively locked down a mainboard with a very minimal cost.

    Nothing like chip & software companies getting together to promote a $100 solution to a $1 problem.

  69. Re:You're all wrong. for the second time in 24 hou by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

    If your disk driver isn't formally verified, it can overwrite the boot sector.
    If your video driver isn't formally verified, it can overwrite any location in memory.
    If your (insert just about anything here) driver that supports DMA isn't formally verified, it can also overwrite any location in memory.
    If your BIOS flashing driver isn't formally verified, the next time you boot you have a rootkit.
    If your file system driver isn't formally verified, it can modify the operating system files.
    If your window manager/login prompt/other common OS programs aren't formally verified, they will allow privilege escalation.

    In short, everything the user has to trust when using a computer needs to be formally verified. That even includes web browsers and plugins that allow running untrusted code.

  70. Re:Might as well just return to the Tandy 1000 day by jafac · · Score: 1

    Well; for something as simple as a CA Cert list, that could be updated pretty frequently (these days, LOL!) - you'd be popping that jumper on and off every Tuesday.

    --

    These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
  71. Re:Might as well just return to the Tandy 1000 day by bky1701 · · Score: 1

    Put a switch on the case.

    Jut because it is a jumper now, doesn't mean it needs to stay that way.

  72. Re:You're all wrong. for the second time in 24 hou by ka9dgx · · Score: 1

    The only thing that MUST be verified is the OS kernel, the rest can be dealt with as untrusted code. L4 is at this stage.

    If your disk driver isn't formally verified, it can overwrite the boot sector.

    If your file system driver isn't formally verified, it can modify the operating system files.

    The OS doesn't have to trust the boot sector, it can verify the information using cryptographic signatures. If you treat the block devices as untrusted, you will do things like using checksums, CRCs, ECC, etc... don't forget that hard drives typically get 1 out of 10^15 blocks wrong in the normal course of doing business.

    You can also encrypt/sign the drivers so the OS can check for modifications, should a rootkit be present.

    Since an untrusted file system driver would have to use the OS to read / write the block devices, you could present it with a read-only capability to the block device which contains the OS, stopping all modification. In the case of a need for an update, the OS could then use a read/write capability to do the update, and switch back when done. I'm sure someone with a good background in CS could figure out a more secure way of doing it.

    If your video driver isn't formally verified, it can overwrite any location in memory.

    Not if the memory management is working correctly... Windows NT 3.5 and earlier had video running outside the kernel... which is the right way to do things in terms of security.

    If your (insert just about anything here) driver that supports DMA isn't formally verified, it can also overwrite any location in memory.

    Drivers don't have to run in kernel mode to be efficient, and the DMA doesn't have to be set up directly by the drivers. The MMU and the control over input parameters to the DMA/Interrupt subsystems should suffice here as well.

    If your BIOS flashing driver isn't formally verified, the next time you boot you have a rootkit.

    True, but to have a rootkit, it has to be installed at some point, which a secure OS would prevent.

    On the other hand, if your threat model includes nation states, you can't stop rootkits installed using physical access to the hardware, if they have enough time... even a checksum bios could be subverted with the right hardware between the motherboard and storage.

    Either way, attempting to detect faults and fouls should be a normal part of the boot process.

    If your window manager/login prompt/other common OS programs aren't formally verified, they will allow privilege escalation.

    Yes, they MIGHT allow privilege escalation, especially if they aren't well constructed and fairly transparent in their operation to the user. The key is to provide an easy to use facility for specification of exactly what permissions are to be given to a program. This needs some work, the first few widely used iterations will be a bit rough around the edges, but after some use and tweaking, it should be pretty easy to do. This results in a secure, efficient Operating System, with no need to trust any program.

    The primary reason we even worry about root kits is that Operating Systems haven't been designed to work in a world of untrusted code. Changing that one aspect of things, doing a hell of a lot of coding to build a capability based OS, provides an environment in which it is very unlikely that any rootkit would get the opportunity to be installed.

  73. Re:You're all wrong. for the second time in 24 hou by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

    The OS doesn't have to trust the boot sector, it can verify the information using cryptographic signatures. If you treat the block devices as untrusted, you will do things like using checksums, CRCs, ECC, etc... don't forget that hard drives typically get 1 out of 10^15 blocks wrong in the normal course of doing business.

    DRM is not the same as formal correctness. I can probabilistically trust public key methods to protect probabilistically correct code, or I can fully trust formally proven code. Given the track record of DRM and code-signing I would opt for formal correctness. Hardware reliability is another issue entirely. You can only have probabilistic trust in the hardware, but unless you are working with tamper-resistant systems you probably don't have to worry about direct attacks on hardware reliability and can use ECC and cryptography to ensure that your own hardware is operating correctly.

    Since an untrusted file system driver would have to use the OS to read / write the block devices, you could present it with a read-only capability to the block device which contains the OS, stopping all modification. In the case of a need for an update, the OS could then use a read/write capability to do the update, and switch back when done. I'm sure someone with a good background in CS could figure out a more secure way of doing it.

    How does the OS know which data blocks contain user data and which blocks contain OS data? How does the OS know the filesystem isn't lying about the data it's going to write? Suppose the OS has perfect control over when and where the file system can write data. The file system says "Time to install an OS upgrade", gets permission, and then writes a rootkit instead of valid data. The entire chain has to be trusted. "a more secure way of doing it" is to formally verify the data to be written to the OS disks before it's written, and then when booting formally verify it again before running it to be sure it wasn't modified.

    Not if the memory management is working correctly... Windows NT 3.5 and earlier had video running outside the kernel... which is the right way to do things in terms of security.

    It's not just the CPU that has access to RAM, any device on the PCI bus has access as well. You do have to trust your hardware, of course, but once the hardware is trusted you also need to trust the driver software to give the correct addresses to the hardware for DMA. The hardware has no idea what sort of protection the OS is using or how it has organized memory, it just reads and writes to specific addresses in RAM. There were (are) numerous X11 privilege escalations based on this fact since OpenGL programs can talk directly to the hardware via direct rendering.

    Drivers don't have to run in kernel mode to be efficient, and the DMA doesn't have to be set up directly by the drivers. The MMU and the control over input parameters to the DMA/Interrupt subsystems should suffice here as well.

    Sometimes the DMA parameters are sent directly to the hardware, especially with video cards. DMA scatter/gather is also used by many disk and network controllers. The particular interface used to tell the hardware which addresses to use is not standardized to the point that every possible hardware driver could use a simple, secure operating system service to pass those DMA parameters to the hardware.

    The primary reason we even worry about root kits is that Operating Systems haven't been designed to work in a world of untrusted code. Changing that one aspect of things, doing a hell of a lot of coding to build a capability based OS, provides an environment in which it is very unlikely that any rootkit would get the opportunity to be installed.

    So you have a perfect capability operating system and it will never be infected by a rootkit and you have fine-grained control over network and file access. You have a secret file on your computer that you would like to process, the result of the proc