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New Mac OS Trojan Produces BitCoins

angry tapir writes about an interesting use for malware. From the Techworld article: "A newly identified Mac OS X Trojan bundles a component that leverages the processing power of video cards to generate Bitcoins, a popular type of virtual currency. The new Trojan was dubbed DevilRobber by antivirus vendors and is being distributed together with several software applications via BitTorrent sites."

247 comments

  1. Joke's on them. by MrQuacker · · Score: 2, Funny

    Scamcoins arent worth anything anymore....

    1. Re:Joke's on them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      I would imagine that they're being mined because they have value.

    2. Re:Joke's on them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you have any lying around, they're still worth about 100,000 times more than they were at the beginning of BitCoin. However, everyone's mining them now, so it's become more difficult. Mining has become a complete waste of energy. Even if you're running a botnet, and not paying for your energy usage, you could still make lots more money by renting out the botnet for DDOS or proxy.

    3. Re:Joke's on them. by phungus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The mining difficulty has been dropping in relation to the number of miners that have been leaving the network. This is exactly how the system was designed, and it's a good thing, because now I'm making more coins than I was before. :-)

      Lots of folks have mining hardware that was paid off in the $30 days and now they still run for free at work or wherever. Not everyone is paying for electricity.

    4. Re:Joke's on them. by mandelbr0t · · Score: 1

      Oh but there's a guy here who says he made MILLIONS! It must be possible to get rich if you do it right. He does seem to be the only one though...

      --
      "Please describe the scientific nature of the 'whammy'" - Agent Scully
    5. Re:Joke's on them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If they're stealing electricity from their workplace to do pointless busywork for bitcoins, that seems like a net loss for society. Unless they work for Holocaust Enterprises LLC. or something.

    6. Re:Joke's on them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course it's possible to become rich in a extremely high-risk currency market. Of course most people will lose their money if they invest in high risk things. Of course all the scammers will come out in force in a situation like this. I'm surprised that these things seem to be surprises for a lot of people, but I'm also wondering why it is relevant? In my opinion these are the first steps on a hopefully long, long journey: Stumbling or even falling flat on your face at this point doesn't mean we shouldn't get up again....

      Why are so few people talking about bitcoin as a very interesting experiment -- actually looking at what could be done differently with the technology we have instead of just listening doing things like the banks and governments want? Why does the discussion have to be either about a "how to become a millionaire" or "bitcoin is a ponzi scheme"? That is so boring.

      The people who now complain about bitcoin being a "scamcoin", "not worth anything" or "not backed by anything" aren't really any better than the clowns that say it's totally ready for use by normal people in their every day life if it wasn't for the "the man" keeping bitcoin down. This is an extremely cool experiment that might in the end work. The fact that this is going to take years of development, testing, observing how it functions, and maybe even restarts of the whole economy -- not to mention the financial and legal system changes -- should not make it less cool.

      I definitely think bitcoin has problems that may prevent it from becoming something big -- as an example I'm not even sure if it's "worth it" to make massive changes like this without solving the over-the-counter payment problem at the same time -- but I don't see the current price fluctuations or the various scams as really important in the big picture.

    7. Re:Joke's on them. by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Well, compared to sending spam mails, running a DDoS blackmail or whatever else you want to do after you've looted a computer for identity theft and credit card information, perhaps it is. Like does the hacker care if he spends $1 of your electricity to give him 50 cents worth of BitCoins? No. He's taking the profit, you're eating the cost. That doesn't mean it would make sense for anyone else who'd actually have to pay their own costs...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    8. Re:Joke's on them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure they are - good for buying Carbon credits

    9. Re:Joke's on them. by E+IS+mC(Square) · · Score: 1, Funny

      Heh.. but at least they are shiny, compared to those mined on a windows or linux boxes.

    10. Re:Joke's on them. by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 2

      ...that seems like a net loss for society.

      Yes. Too bad it's become unfashionable to care about that.

    11. Re:Joke's on them. by ProppaT · · Score: 1

      I imagine they're being mined because someone wants to have the biggest nerd wang. Like in videogames where people have to have the best gear to prove a point.

      Bitcoin had a heyday about a year ago but it's a total joke anymore.

      --
      Wise men say, "Forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza."
    12. Re:Joke's on them. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Storing value as bitcoins for any meaningful length of time, or spending money to mine them is stupid. Selling them real fast for real money is smart. This black hat has outsourced the mining costs and is probably selling them as fast as they come in - that's very smart.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    13. Re:Joke's on them. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Mod parent Insightful.

      Even if you think home cluster computing is fun and you're wasting your own electricity, it would be better to contribute to an actually useful BOINC project like folding@home, LHC@home or one of the climate projects.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    14. Re:Joke's on them. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      ...from the Rossi cold fusion project! And then you spend the carbon credits to offset your mining rigs and the circle of bullshit is complete.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    15. Re:Joke's on them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh but there's a guy here who says he made MILLIONS! It must be possible to get rich if you do it right. He does seem to be the only one though...

      On the one hand, there's ultimately no economic or practical basis to back that guy's claims, nor any reputable news to that effect. Just about everything about it sounds like a blatant scam, bordering right on some libertarian version of snake oil. It is, largely, a giant waste of electricity, time, and other resources just to help give value to the people who got in on this early, and nobody else.

      On the other hand, MILLIONS is a very very big number! I mean, very big! You never know, that same guy might be talking about BILLIONS tomorrow (in fact, he probably will)! That has to balance out the fraud and completely empty economic system being proposed, right? MILLIONS!

    16. Re:Joke's on them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but that was Herman Cain.

    17. Re:Joke's on them. by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      Bitcoin had a heyday about a year ago but it's a total joke anymore.

      I saw a billboard on Lawrence Expressway in Sunnyvale for some place, and the billboard said "We accept BitCoin". Even weirder than seeing URLs spring up all over the place ~15 years ago (or twitter hashtags show up in the TV bugs in the past few weeks).

  2. "...the processing power of video cards..." by willoughby · · Score: 5, Funny

    As an owner of a Mac Mini let me just say, "Thank God, I'm safe!".

    1. Re:"...the processing power of video cards..." by Surt · · Score: 1

      Ugggh. I see this junk everywhere. Will slashdot's overlords please consider terminating this account? (and the thousands just like it ...)

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    2. Re:"...the processing power of video cards..." by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 0

      Woosh.
      He is saying his videocard doesn't have enough power to be usefull for this. He's complaining his Mac Mini's videocard sucks.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    3. Re:"...the processing power of video cards..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Look at the comment you replied to. Now look at the one that that was in reply to. Now go wooosh yourself.

    4. Re:"...the processing power of video cards..." by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2

      Spammers have ways to automagically create accounts. Usually the spam accounts only create one message.

    5. Re:"...the processing power of video cards..." by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 1

      >> Ugggh.

      So you'd like to buy some then?

    6. Re:"...the processing power of video cards..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoosh, by itself, is annoying enough to instill the desire to slap the person using it. And an extra slap when the whoosh is unfounded.

    7. Re:"...the processing power of video cards..." by Surt · · Score: 1

      Woosh. Read the ggp again.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    8. Re:"...the processing power of video cards..." by Surt · · Score: 1

      And I was worried no one would appreciate that. :-)

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    9. Re:"...the processing power of video cards..." by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      it's getting windy in here.

  3. Just works! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I use MACs because they just work!

    --A virus writer.

    1. Re:Just works! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Fool, It's a Trojan, not a virus.

      You have to actually sudo install it.

    2. Re:Just works! by meerling · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There are very very few new viruses anymore, it's been like that for years. The problem is the media calls bloody everything a virus, even program glitches on occasion.
      But it is malware, and it's a lot more than just a trojan. It's also backdoor, and phisher. It's a nasty little package, especially for anyone that thinks macs are immune.
      Didn't see any mention of it having and poison pill functions if someone tries to remove it.

    3. Re:Just works! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I work in the AV industry, and except in settings where the distinction is actually important, we too tend to throw around "virus" as a generic term for malware. So I wouldn't worry too much about it.

      I can tell you one thing we _don't_ say is "virii"

    4. Re:Just works! by CapuchinSeven · · Score: 2

      That's because the type of crap Microsoft let walk all over it's operating systems in the 90's was just that, viruses.

    5. Re:Just works! by BasilBrush · · Score: 1, Insightful

      especially for anyone that thinks macs are immune.

      It's not people who think Macs are immune that are in danger. It's people who are downloading warez from bittorrent.

    6. Re:Just works! by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      except on the windows platform. There are still plenty that can infect without the user running it as administrator because of crapware called MS office and Adobe Reader that do not run sandboxed but run so that when they overflow they give the code root level access.

      Again, it's the craptastic security model of Windows.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    7. Re:Just works! by makomk · · Score: 1

      Except that hardly anyone bothers to exploit those. In fact, for quite a while security vulnerabilities in web browsers, Flash, etc were a lot easier to exploit on Mac OS X than on Windows - and even then no-one bothered to exploit them.

    8. Re:Just works! by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      The problem is the media calls bloody everything a virus, even program glitches on occasion.

      What I have also noticed is that bugs are more often called glitches these days.

    9. Re:Just works! by SharkLaser · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Except on iPhone, which are remotely rootable via exploits where you only need to visit a website to gain root on the device. But for some reason the fanboys have turned this into a good thing (yay, jailbreak!)

    10. Re:Just works! by SharkLaser · · Score: 1

      And Linux had them in 90's too.

    11. Re:Just works! by Spad · · Score: 1

      Well Reader X is sandboxed these days, but most malware exploits Flash and Java anyway because everyone has them installed, nobody bothers to update them, they're automatically loaded by almost every browser and, in the case of Flash, are astonishingly poorly written from a security perspective.

      Of course, given that there are hundreds of thousands of machines on the internet that are still passing around things like Code Red and Blaster, it's not a problem that's going to be solved any time soon.

    12. Re:Just works! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I use MACs because they just work!

      --A virus writer.

      I use MACs because they are unique to each NIC, and ARP helps me find them....

      I use Macs because of their sleek metal cases.

    13. Re:Just works! by Graham+J+-+XVI · · Score: 2

      That hasn't been true since 4.3.4.

    14. Re:Just works! by makomk · · Score: 1

      Even on iPhone, it's unusual for anyone to bother exploiting those for malicious purposes despite the fact that working exploits are publicly available.

    15. Re:Just works! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      LOLWUT? Adobe Reader is a top infection vector, right up there with Flash and the JRE, and MS Office apps are still relatively popular targets.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    16. Re:Just works! by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      you mean the AM industry?

  4. A perfect storm of trolling by alostpacket · · Score: 4, Funny

    A Mac Trojan and a Bitcoin story in one! Quick someone tie this into global warming!

    --
    PocketPermissions Android Permission Guide
    1. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by AlienIntelligence · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A Mac Trojan and a Bitcoin story in one! Quick someone tie this into global warming!

      What's there to tie into global warming...? Of course the production
      of bitcoins uses processor or GPU, which uses electricity, which
      pollutes the atmosphere cause it's the electricity from the coal plants
      ONLY and not from the nuke plants... but the nuke plants are just
      as bad cause they are all susceptible to tsunamis, even the inland
      ones.

      So, yeah, I added global warming AND nuke, there!

      -AI

      --
      For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
    2. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The power draw will cause increased emissions leading to an acceleration of global warming.

    3. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by bloodhawk · · Score: 1

      Global Warming? of course it is global warming related, Bitcoin mining uses the Graphics card which itself directly creates heat, not to mention also increases power usages, most likely this trojan is the missing link in the whole climate change debate.

    4. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Al Gore is on Apple's Board of Directors.

    5. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      good thing that most of the electricity where I am comes from Hydro. :)

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    6. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by Wandering+Voice · · Score: 1

      "So, yeah, I added global warming AND nuke, there!" Way to go! But you forgot about the children. What about the children!

    7. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Apple fanbois are gay.

      I think we're about done here. Kudos all around.

    8. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      ORLY

      Give me a nuke any day.

    9. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 1

      Hydro

      Floods.

      --
      Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
    10. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by bigredradio · · Score: 1

      Crazy! This is like putting a Morris Mini in the bed of a Ford F350.

    11. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by IsaacD · · Score: 1

      You left out - with the GPU frequency scaled up, the magnetic field strength is increased, causing cancer!

    12. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Crazy! This is like putting a Morris Mini in the bed of a Ford F350.

      did you mean the BMC Mini, or perhaps the Morris Minor.

      As far as putting it in the bed of a modern American pickup truck that is how my dad and I transported my 68 MG Midget back from where I purchased it (near Milwaukee, WI back to the twin cities) as my dad's enclosed car trailer weighs more than the midget. Granted we had to put the tail gate down to do this, but with proper tie downs it wasn't an issue. We got 17mpg round trip.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    13. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Bitcoins are often used on darknet pedo sites (not kidding, this is my serious face |:-( )

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    14. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I saw a flatbed tow truck carrying a lorry the other day. I couldn't get my camera out fast enough.

      You could put a Dodge 3500 on a flatbed tow truck and then put a Samurai on the 3500's bed, then put a Peel P50 in the Samurai. Beat that. B-)

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    15. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by makubesu · · Score: 1

      What? A post about bitcoin! Slashdot standards are terrible since Taco left!!!

    16. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      good thing that most of the electricity where I am comes from Hydro. :)

      Hydro also messes with ecosystems.

    17. Re:A perfect storm of trolling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Little did you know that every time you slow down water, cigarette smoke comes out.

  5. I guess someone was bored by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With the rapid falloff of interest in Bitcoin someone must have gotten really bored to invest the time to create this trojan. I think they would have been better off creating a 419 scam claiming they need help to liquidate Bitcoin assets without sinking the market.

    1. Re:I guess someone was bored by AlienIntelligence · · Score: 1

      With the rapid falloff of interest in Bitcoin someone must have gotten really bored to invest the time to create this trojan. I think they would have been better off creating a 419 scam claiming they need help to liquidate Bitcoin assets without sinking the market.

      Actually, (not sure if you care) what happened was the
      difficulty in generating the bitcoins got to the point where
      buying equipment didn't pay off anymore. So, someone
      not bored but greedy... decided to utilize everyone else's
      equipment and electricity costs.

      -AI

      --
      For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
  6. Follow the Trail by igreaterthanu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As BitCoin transactions aren't anonymous, in fact they are completely public, it would be trivial to follow where the BitCoins end up - hopefully to catch the malware author.

    --
    I dream of a nation where a man is not judged by his skin color but by an number assigned by a credit rating agency.
    1. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In all probability, it is to a wallet somewhere hidden and as soon as they can or realize they're being trolled, will purchase real currency with the bitcoins and disappear...

    2. Re:Follow the Trail by Rinisari · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not perfect anonymity, but there are ways to stay safer by using multiple BTC addresses and such.

      https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Anonymity

    3. Re:Follow the Trail by BitZtream · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If I was doing this, I would have done it just to be a dick, not to profit. That means I'd make it run on a Mac just to go along with the 'macs don't get viruses' meme, and I'd do bit coin mining for no reason other than to devalue it into oblivion because I'm sick Of seeing silly arguments over fiat currancies versus gold backed ones.

      Not everything is about monetary gain. Sometimes people are just dicks.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    4. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're saying you're a dick?

    5. Re:Follow the Trail by throwaway18 · · Score: 2

      Applying more computer power to bitcoin mining won't devalue bitcoin any more than it will anyway. The software adjusts the difficulty of generating blocks so that it generates approximately 7200 BTC every day for the next year, fewer after that. More computing power applies to mining just means that individual people mining get a smaller share of the coins being generated.

    6. Re:Follow the Trail by SharkLaser · · Score: 1

      As BitCoin transactions aren't anonymous, in fact they are completely public, it would be trivial to follow where the BitCoins end up - hopefully to catch the malware author.

      And the trail starts from.. where?

    7. Re:Follow the Trail by Sqr(twg) · · Score: 1

      The bitcoins need not be created on the infected machines and then transferred to the crooks. Once the magic number is found, it can transferred in an untraceable way (public key encrypted and bounced around on infected computers) and the crook will appear no different than a regular bitcoin miner with a lot of processing power.

    8. Re:Follow the Trail by igreaterthanu · · Score: 1

      Debug the code in the malware, it has to either send the solved blocks somewhere (then find the address that solved that block) or it will send the BitCoins to some particular address.

      --
      I dream of a nation where a man is not judged by his skin color but by an number assigned by a credit rating agency.
    9. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You see silly arguments over fiat currencies because you clearly don't understand that a) more computing power != devaluation, for reasons stated elsewhere, and b) the dollar isn't more "gold backed" than bitcoin, it's just backed by an economy that uses it (and that's having trouble). So there.

    10. Re:Follow the Trail by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      There are no gold backed ones, so an argument is one person who believes in a fictitious currency, vs one who believes in a currency with fictitious value.

    11. Re:Follow the Trail by Hognoxious · · Score: 0

      Bollocks, you smug twat. There's plenty of scope for argument over whether there should be.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    12. Re:Follow the Trail by DrXym · · Score: 1

      Generating extra bitcoins when the price is plunging will devalue it further.

    13. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yo mama. Or rather, her malware infested computer.

    14. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you attempt to sell what you mine, you will lower the price, as only a percentage of all miners intend to immediately sell. Most want to hold onto them in hopes of appreciating values.

    15. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      some men just want to watch the macs burn

    16. Re:Follow the Trail by BasilBrush · · Score: 0

      If I was doing this, I would have done it just to be a dick, not to profit.

      It comes as no surprise to anyone that you're a dick.

    17. Re:Follow the Trail by qubezz · · Score: 1

      Not everything is about monetary gain. Sometimes people are just dicks.

      ...and sometimes dicks fuck pussies.

    18. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet it still fails because it's a trojan and NOT a VIRUS.

      Therefore Mac's still dont get Viruses. How about instead of whining at people you tell Microsoft to stop making their OS with completely crappy security.

      MSFT should run all of Office in a sandbox, etc.. Those amateurs at Microsoft cant write an OS with any real security.

      This is another reason why Apple chose BSD. the BSD guys are not idiots like the OS designers at Microsoft.

    19. Re:Follow the Trail by icebraining · · Score: 1

      That's GP's point: generating extra bitcoins is impossible.

    20. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "That means I'd make it run on a Mac just to go along with the 'macs don't get viruses' meme"

      This is a trojan, not a virus.

    21. Re:Follow the Trail by DrXym · · Score: 1

      Mining becomes increasingly hard over time but while there are bitcoins to be mined they will be mined. And the point is that if some trojan is doing the mining then those bitcoins are invariably going to be sold devaluing the currency even further.

    22. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Generating extra bitcoins when the price is plunging will devalue it further.

      You can't generate more. More mining means less share per miner. Or per mining power to be more specific.

    23. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so you have a bitcoin address, now what?

      When you claim that bitcoin transactions are "completely public" you owe as a little bit more detailed explanation -- hopefully one that doesn't assume an idiot malware author.

    24. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the GPU burn.

    25. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bounce the bitcoins in and out of somewhere that doesn't have it's pool of sending and receiving addresses public and likely never will. Like Silk Road.

    26. Re:Follow the Trail by DrXym · · Score: 2

      And if the trojan's CPU power represents a significant % then the coins go to the trojan operator. The trojan operator is likely to sell them and the currency devalues even further. That's the point.

    27. Re:Follow the Trail by igreaterthanu · · Score: 1
      --
      I dream of a nation where a man is not judged by his skin color but by an number assigned by a credit rating agency.
    28. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh come on, please at least try to move this discussion forward. Transactions are public -- in the sense that you can see a certain number of coins have moved. You claimed it's "trivial to follow where the BitCoins end up" and that is obviously the bit I'd be interested to hear about, not the basics of bitcoin protocol...

      The question was: so you have a bitcoin address, now what?

    29. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He doesn't even have a BitCoin address. He has IP of some C&C server in China. Unless the botnet is completely P2P, then he doesn't have even that.

    30. Re:Follow the Trail by Graham+J+-+XVI · · Score: 1

      It's not that Macs don't get viruses, it's just that there are thousands of times less of them than there are for Windows.

    31. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ok i keep hearing these things about fiat currency vs gold backed...
      why is gold any more valuable than a fiat currency? gold really has no inherent value itself other than we think it does...similar to any fiat currency...

    32. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they were as easy to track as you suggest, then silkroad would have been shut down a long time ago (it's still running), and the DEA would be busting people all over the place. (there hasn't been a single bust)

      The couple articles I have seen so called 'proving' how easy they are to track ONLY applies to a few very specific cases, where the same address is used multiple times and either the sender or receiver is known. Sure they are not completely anonymous, but measures can be taken to make it as close as possible.

    33. Re:Follow the Trail by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      You're right, gold is a fiat currency, it's just relatively stable, but not some universal absolute as the Ron Paul fans seem to think.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    34. Re:Follow the Trail by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      That's not what the cool guy on the ad said to that boring accountant guy!

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    35. Re:Follow the Trail by Graham+J+-+XVI · · Score: 1

      The ad says "114,000 viruses? Not on a Mac."

      That is correct.

    36. Re:Follow the Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not trivial anymore if they use mixing services such as bitcoinfog[dot]com or bitcoinlandry[dot]com

    37. Re:Follow the Trail by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Well yeah, but when all currencies used to be non-fiat, and now all are, it seems the burden is on the fiat-nutters to indicate why every government on the planet is wrong and they are right. And the arguement always drops back to "if we ignore history and lessons learned from the past, non-fiat doesn't look as bad as it does when you examine it in practice."

      You are caling me smug? Have you ever spoken with a fiat-nutter? They come across like they are so full of themselves and know everything, yet can't be bothered to learn anything about the topic they rant about on an hourly basis. They generally fall into the government-hating nutter unibomber-loony category who really hate fiat because it increased government control of the monetary supply, and no other reason, everything else they say is lies to hide their true beliefs because deep down they all know they are nutters.

    38. Re:Follow the Trail by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      And if the trojan's CPU power represents a significant % then the coins go to the trojan operator. The trojan operator is likely to sell them and the currency devalues even further. That's the point.

      And the other miners would just have deleted them, right?

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    39. Re:Follow the Trail by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Uhm, actually, there are several countries in which gold IS the currency in certain areas. These are typically very poor african countries where the people are mining gold themselves so it makes sense for it to be their currency. It may not be an 'official' currency, but plenty of places in the world still trade based on reality rather than virtual items.

      Interestingly enough, this very thing happens in Alaska as well, which is funny considering your sig. You might want to learn some more about the places you advertise.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    40. Re:Follow the Trail by DrXym · · Score: 1

      They might have hoarded them or used them to buy things. The criminal is more likely to cash out.

    41. Re:Follow the Trail by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      And yet it still fails because it's a trojan and NOT a VIRUS.

      Therefore Mac's still dont get Viruses. How about instead of whining at people you tell Microsoft to stop making their OS with completely crappy security.

      Sign, 12 year olds like yourself are so cute.

      First off, you ignorant fucking fanboy, I posted that comment and this one from my MacBook Pro so step off you ignorant fucking fanboy. I assure you I've fogotten more about computing in the last 6 hours than you know. Stop being such a douche and get a clue.

      Yes, a Trojan is not a virus, a trojan however CAN be a virus, self replication, the definition of a virus, does not mean exclusive self replication, a trojan is just a virus which requires help from a ignorant person to replicate itself. Its just another type of infection vector. I'm sorry your mind is too simply and you're too ignorant to realize this, but you'll figure it out in another 20 years.

      If you don't think Macs get viruses, you need to learn how to use Google, there are plenty of Mac viruses, there is just the whole problem with the number of macs compared to the number of PCs. If you know a 100 windows users, and only 1 of them has ever gotten a virus, do you think because of the 3 mac users you know, none of them being infected means they don't get infected? You're confusing your complete ignorance and lack of experience living outside of mommies basement with Macs not getting viruses.

      MSFT should run all of Office in a sandbox, etc..

      Yea, because that makes computing SO fucking useful for people trying to get ACTUAL work done. I so want my PC to act just like my iPhone where its a pain in the ass to share documents between apps without ending up with multiple copies thanks to the sandboxing. Its simply not practical in the real world. If you actually did anything with people, you'd understand this.

      And for the record, Numbers, Pages and Keynote ... don't run in a sandbox ... and all 3 have been exploited remotely (and patched by Apple)

      Those amateurs at Microsoft cant write an OS with any real security.

      Again, sigh. Do you realize the NT kernels security system is what SELinux would like to be? You're ignorance again confuses you. NT has FAR FAR more fine grained security than any of the BSDs. I've not been watching the SELinux development in a long time, so it MAY have caught up at this point, but I doubt it. The problem is the MS likes for people to actually be able to continue to use their stuff. Unlike Linux fanboys such as yourself, Microsoft covers normal people, who have shit to do other than sit in mommies basement and fuck around with xf86config and umpteen different window managers. Its for the people who actually have to work so that little twits such as yourself can continue to be such ignorant little fucks :)

      That results in LONG times for things to change. MS has been 'fixing' their security issues since Win2k, and developer who followed MS's guidelines for secure development could write an app for Win2k and it likely would have worked FLAWLESSLY out of the box all the way to Windows 7. Too bad thats not what people built, instead devs continued to ignore the guidelines and treat the machine as if it was single user and everyone was an admin, and thats why you've had apps that have broken during service packs and new OS upgrades, and was in fact the REASON UAC came into existence, to help partially deal with all those apps that didn't listen.

      Which OS are you fanboying it up for? FreeBSD? Net or Open? I hope not, considering EVERY ONE OF THEM has been exploited relatively recently and if you look at their exploits per deployed capita, I think you'll find that you'll have to pull both your foot out of your mouth and your head out of your ass. OBSD is only as impressive as their slogan, which they change every time they get exploited so they can conti

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    42. Re:Follow the Trail by AK+Marc · · Score: 1
      Bartering with non-currency gold is not a gold-backed paper currency, which is the thing proposed by the anti-fiat folks. I'm aware of bartering with gold. There are no government currencies backed by gold (even in africa, where you are more likely to see Zimbabwe style unbacked paper and uncontrolled inflation.

      Interestingly enough, this very thing happens in Alaska as well, which is funny considering your sig. You might want to learn some more about the places you advertise.

      Not that places will turn away a barter of gold for goods, but you seem to be implying that there is some active gold-currency market in Alaska. Nope. There likely was back in the early years of the gold rush, but "happens" indicates a present tense, not past tense, and I'm curious where. I've covered most of the state, and I've never seen any such bartering (even in active gold-mining towns).

    43. Re:Follow the Trail by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      dammit, if /. are being so tight with modpoints, can they at least put a "like" button in? :)

    44. Re:Follow the Trail by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      wow, so many pots and kettles. am i in a kitchen?

    45. Re:Follow the Trail by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      are they all virii? or are a good whack of them trojans?

      i suspect it's not as correct as you think.

  7. +1 funny, somebody. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ha ha ha ha, I get it.

  8. Unnecessary Definition is Unnecessary by cosm · · Score: 1

    that leverages the processing power of video cards to generate Bitcoins, a popular type of virtual currency.

    At that rate, summary might as well have said:

    "A newly identified Mac OS X (a popular Mac operating system) Trojan (a popular method for exploits) bundles a component that leverages the processing power (a measure of processing) of video cards to generate Bitcoins, a popular type of virtual currency (something used for economic exchange (the process of trading one thing for another (something other than the one thing))). The new Trojan was dubbed DevilRobber by antivirus vendors (companies that write viruses) and is being distributed together with several software applications via BitTorrent sites, places to download torrents (links that track the locations of pieces of a file (a collection of bits (binary representations of data, ie information)))"

    --
    'We are trying to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible, because only in that way can we find progress.' RPF
    1. Re:Unnecessary Definition is Unnecessary by PessimysticRaven · · Score: 2

      that leverages the processing power of video cards to generate Bitcoins, a popular type of virtual currency.

      At that rate, summary might as well have said: ""

      Well, hell. One day, the summary is too terse and doesn't explain enough.. The next day, the summary explains a single term (that, truthfully, no one pays attention to), and suddenly, that's too much?

      Fickle bastards, we are.

      --
      Consistency is only a virtue if you're not a screw-up.
    2. Re:Unnecessary Definition is Unnecessary by PowerCyclist · · Score: 0

      Um, while I would guess half or more of /.ers know what they are, the vast majority of the world's populous still doesn't know what Bitcoins are.

    3. Re:Unnecessary Definition is Unnecessary by Khyber · · Score: 1

      You must be new here, O' almost a million over my UID user.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    4. Re:Unnecessary Definition is Unnecessary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hit 'em in the low.. er high.. hanging fruit.

    5. Re:Unnecessary Definition is Unnecessary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hurrr

    6. Re:Unnecessary Definition is Unnecessary by Surt · · Score: 1

      I kind of liked the idyllic worldview in which the author assumed that not all of slashdot had been beaten over the head with a flurry of bitcoin stories, and therefore he had to explain the term. I mean those are some fine rose colored glasses if ever there were any.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    7. Re:Unnecessary Definition is Unnecessary by PessimysticRaven · · Score: 1

      You must be new here, O' almost a million over my UID user.

      Simply a long-time lurker that, for reasons unknown, decided to sign up.

      I was certainly missing "my UID's smaller than urs!" e-peen-waving snark in my life. What better place to find it than /. !

      --
      Consistency is only a virtue if you're not a screw-up.
    8. Re:Unnecessary Definition is Unnecessary by BasilBrush · · Score: 0

      And never will.

    9. Re:Unnecessary Definition is Unnecessary by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      NOOB!

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    10. Re:Unnecessary Definition is Unnecessary by PowerCyclist · · Score: 0

      Indeed, I like the idea of Bitcoins, but also don't think it will succeed. I don't think it will catastrophically collapse, just that it will never grow much larger than it is right now and eventually fade away as more successful versions arise.

    11. Re:Unnecessary Definition is Unnecessary by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Funny that the SMALLER uid means the LARGER e-peen....
      Just saying...

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    12. Re:Unnecessary Definition is Unnecessary by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      UIDs are like f-stops.

      the smaller number, the larger the hole.

      and the fuzzier the posts.

    13. Re:Unnecessary Definition is Unnecessary by PessimysticRaven · · Score: 1

      UIDs are like f-stops.

      the smaller number, the larger the hole.

      and the fuzzier the posts.

      Must.. Post...

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcoreV10hI8

      --
      Consistency is only a virtue if you're not a screw-up.
  9. Hahahahaha by AnotherShep · · Score: 0

    Hahahahahahahahahaha "popular". Bitcoins. "Popular". hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

    1. Re:Hahahahaha by Khyber · · Score: 0

      Hahahaha shows what you know.

      You're just mad because you didn't make a few million from them like my company did.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    2. Re:Hahahahaha by jjohnson · · Score: 1

      How did your company make a few million (dollars, I assume) from bitcoin?

      --
      Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
    3. Re:Hahahahaha by thoughtfulbloke · · Score: 2

      Didn't you read the summary?

    4. Re:Hahahahaha by mcmonkey · · Score: 3, Funny

      They make GPUs

    5. Re:Hahahahaha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The early bird. Be it. It gets the worm. Not early? Not a bird? NO WORMS FOR YOU!
      (be jealous, my night crawlers are amazing)

    6. Re:Hahahahaha by SnarfQuest · · Score: 0

      Hahahaha shows what you know.

      You're just mad because you didn't make a few million from them like my company did.

      Didn't you mean of instead of from? Is this article about you?

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
  10. Imagine in real life by WetCat · · Score: 1

    You have called a plumber. Plumber came in with some guy. Some guy bringed his golden tin, went to your kitchen, took your hammer from your instrument stand and started to mint fake coins. Ow!

    1. Re:Imagine in real life by 18_Rabbit · · Score: 1

      Why do you have a hammer in an instrument stand in your kitchen?

    2. Re:Imagine in real life by PowerCyclist · · Score: 0

      Hey, I'd be upset if someone put wear and tear on my hardware no matter what the reason. As for Bitcoins, at least they're a new idea, and at their worst they're still pretty harmless. I haven't seen you try to come up with a better global economic system.

    3. Re:Imagine in real life by PowerCyclist · · Score: 0

      I have both of those in my kitchen. Had to do something with all those cabinets.

    4. Re:Imagine in real life by eineerg · · Score: 0

      Hmm, friend borrows car to take partner to hospital. Fucken arsehole wearing out my sparkplugs

    5. Re:Imagine in real life by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 2

      For those times when my wife decides to cook. It is either burned or still needs to be killed. This is why I cook. Plus a hammer works wonders on tough meat to tenderize it, this is why I also do the grocery shopping now as well.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    6. Re:Imagine in real life by PowerCyclist · · Score: 0

      Haha, hence the reason I said "upset" instead of "angry". Upset means you take an interest and are not 'happy' with a situation. I would investigate the reason and decide if I was angry after the assessment.

    7. Re:Imagine in real life by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      he's a cyclist... no car.

    8. Re:Imagine in real life by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

      Is "bringed" idiot for brought?

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
  11. You laugh, and we profit. by phungus · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Eh, you geeks may scoff but some of us are pulling in 20-30% profits *PER DAY* trading these "silly" Bitcoins.

    It really is the ultimate geek fantasy project: a completely open ended, sky-is-the-limit, world political structure changing, disruptive open source software technology.

    Anyone that hates without backing it up is just trying to feed you disinformation. Bitcoin directly challenges TPTB because it puts trading power back in the hands of the people.

    1. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it's all the same to you, I'll keep laughing while you "profit".

      I mean, investing in a disconnected bunch of utopians is just sad, but speculative investment? That just crosses the line into hysterical comedy, right there.

    2. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by UpnAtom · · Score: 1

      Since the crash, you're probably spending more in electricity than getting back in Bitcoins.

    3. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      20-30% profit my a$$! I've been following Bitcoins and I have seen nothing but valuation dropping from a peak of $32 per Bitcoin to $5 per Bitcoin over the months. Not finding your 20-30% profits PER DAY very believable unless you happen to be the virus writer that is collecting bitcoins from the massive bot farms you have!

    4. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eh, you geeks may scoff but some of us are pulling in 20-30% profits *PER DAY* trading these "silly" Bitcoins.

      It depends on who you are and what you're doing, really. If you're being a proper bloodthirsty capitalist and doing this entirely through market trading, I salute you.

      If you're some crazed Russian with a botnet, mining bitcoins on other people's systems - well, I'm not going to applaud, but thanks for not using your botnet to send me e-mail about cheap Cialis.

      But if you're one of those derping idiots out there running systems that are borderline popping a breaker - well, I'm laughing. I'm laughing long, and I'm laughing hard, Tre-bek. To quote an old EVE Online axiom*,

      The minerals were free because I mined them myself!

      (* Everything I needed to know about production, I learned from a serious game of Internets Spaceships.)

    5. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      It really is the ultimate geek fantasy project: a completely open ended, sky-is-the-limit, world political structure changing, disruptive open source software technology.

      If bitcoin is the best we have come up with in that direction, I wouldn't be too ready to storm the Bastille. Bitcoin has been shown to have unstable value and to be economically unsound. But hey, using it is "sticking it to the man" so keep on putting your money into something with absolutely no backing or stability. You might be making money now, but like all gambling, eventually you'll lose.

    6. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not everyone has to pay for electricity. Some people get free electricity included in their rent, or they get some electricity from work or school, or they have solar panels, or they live somewhere where electricity is practically free.

    7. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      He could be shorting the market. I don't know if anyone offers shorting bitcoins yet, but I kind of expect there to be eventually.

    8. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Except I've personally made a few million TANGIBLE dollars and paid taxes on it.

      What again, son? You're mad because us smart adults actually kicked your asses at your own game of bullshit? Oh, as if we haven't been through this before in other times.

      Please.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    9. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by jjohnson · · Score: 2

      How much have you actually pulled out in dollars or gold? i.e., converted to a stable currency that's reasonably guaranteed to hold its value steadily instead of fluctuating a lot. Assuming that bitcoin mining is a good investment, bitcoin's volatility makes it a poor store of value over the longer term.

      --
      Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
    10. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Only if you haven't outsourced it like every other job in America.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    11. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Khyber · · Score: 2

      Seems like you're totally incapable of doing day to day trading.

      Oh well. Not my problem. I've made my money, 6-700X what I invested.

      Perhaps you should stop listening to Austrians and Keynesians for economic advice.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    12. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Note: If Bitcoin was very stable, the "gubbermints" would be stomping it out altogether...

      As it stands, the liquidity is great. How else can I speculate if the price has plateaued?

      Outside of speculation the primary uses I've seen are to quickly convert money from one currency or location to another. With this as a primary use-case, Bitcoin excels far beyond most other banking systems with very high "wire-transfer" rates.

      So long as it provides a way for me to transfer artificial worth around to collect things with actual worth (other currencies, goods & services) I'll keep using it.

      As for the "gambling" namecalling, you're retarded. I bet you lose your ass in Vegas. Hint: You earn some profit in a fast moving market, you store that profit in a more stable market, continue "investing" with only the profits; Lather, rinse repeat. It works for the Stock Market (your 401k is our life raft), it works for Gambling, it works for Bitcoin too... DUMBASS.

    13. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Nope. Still laughing.

      Keep bragging about your little play money and your scam coins. If it were really that simple, we'd be hearing about this all over reputable financial publications.

      Reputable. Not Turbo-Libertarian Weekly, or Stoner Monthly. We'd have news of millionaires pouring in from all over the globe. Not a few whispers from scam artists who make up unverifiable stories to make themselves feel better for wasting thousands on high-end GPUs, "killer" computing rigs, and electricity for literally no useful reason.

      So yes. Laughing. Peddle your Flooz elsewhere.

    14. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of us hate because we didn't get in on the ground floor of the pyramid scheme.

    15. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Wandering+Idiot · · Score: 1

      Assuming we believe you (which is a leap, given that you're making an unlikely, unverified claim on the internet) and that you traded the Bitcoins for millions in actual widely-accepted currency (like US dollars) before the recent drop in value, how many others can you say the same for? And how many others are going to be able to do the same now? Basically, if true, you're just arguing about coming out on top of a kind of lottery pool without actually doing anything useful for anyone else, besides making a miniscule contribution towards field-testing a type of currency that might become popular at some point in a modified form. So... congratulations, I guess? Hopefully none of the millions you extracted came from people who invested money they couldn't really afford to lose.

    16. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by SharkLaser · · Score: 3

      Yep, Bitcoinica offers shorting and leverages.

    17. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Paul+Rutland · · Score: 1

      You mean outsourcing like the Trojan writers are doing?

    18. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by tehcyder · · Score: 2

      Not my problem. I've made my money, 6-700X what I invested.

      The people who get in near the beginning of a pyramid scheme often make money. But hopefully, it gets confiscated when they're sent to prison.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    19. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by robthebloke · · Score: 1

      As for the "gambling" namecalling, you're retarded. I bet you lose your ass in Vegas. Hint: You earn some profit in a fast moving market, you store that profit in a more stable market, continue "investing" with only the profits; Lather, rinse repeat. It works for the Stock Market (your 401k is our life raft), it works for Gambling, it works for Bitcoin too... DUMBASS.

      I see. So your money making scheme works like this:

      1. You take some of your money.
      2. You gamble it in Vegas
      3. You inevitably win
      4. You transfer the money to the bank afterwards.
      5. Profit.

      Yup. That is some faultless logic right there. Absolutely no point of failure to be found in that scheme at all. So tell me.... Have you considered selling your home to invest the money in bitcoins? After all, it's only dumbasses that would fail step 3 right?

    20. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by robthebloke · · Score: 1

      Be very glad you aren't on the ground floor. That's the bit where all the bricks get squished by the weight of the pyramid above. Much better to be at the top methinks, a much better view from up there I'd imagine.....

    21. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      There is no reason whatsoever for any of us to believe you are not trolling.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    22. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by makomk · · Score: 1

      And every cent you made was a cent someone else lost, quite possibly someone else who was actually foolish enough to provide actual goods and services in exchange for bitcoins. There's no actual benefit provided by Bitcoins, it's just a zero-sum gamble masquerading as useful work. Kind of like a minature version of the behaviour in Wall Street that lead us into a massive recession, in fact.

    23. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by DrXym · · Score: 1
      Mathematically 93% people get squished in the most common form of pyramid. In the 8-ball style scam 14 people must join for 1 to leave. The guy at the top of a 1:2:4 pyramid leaves when it becomes a 1:2:4:8 pyramid. So 1 person leaves for every 2:4:8=14 people remaining. When the scheme collapses therefore there will be ~93% people still in it who haven't been paid out.

      But that's not to say 7% of investors profit from the scam. The scammer would construct a phony pyramid which appears to have 7 existing members (tiered 1:2:4) for every 8 rubes they have lined up to join. So you pretend there are already 7 people existing people in the scheme and when 8 more join for a $1000 fee the scammer is immediately up $8000, when these people recruit 16 more people, that's another $16000, when they recruit 32 more people, that's another $32000.

      The scammer is up $56000 at this point and could cut and run. No rube has been paid a penny yet. Alternatively the scammer might set themselves up as the "payment processor" for the scheme "to ensure honesty" and gauge the scam's health by the number of new members reinserting themselves for as long as they can. If new members start drying up they know the scheme's dying and run for the hills. Either way the scammer walks away with most of the money, a few lucky rubes *might* get a payout but most will end up in the 93% that has nothing.

    24. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very fast, nearly free transfer of currency anywhere in the world is a worthy goal. Bitcoin is a lot closer to implementing that than the banks, credit companies or the paypals are.

      So someone makes a lot of money or loses their investments -- what do you care? that's what happens in thousands of markets all around the world every day... That's _not_ what makes bitcoin special or interesting.

    25. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Domini+Canes · · Score: 1

      Sigh.... there is no -1/Wrong moderation....

      Dude, you have serious reading comprehension problems.
      The original parent wrote (reemphasizing different word in quote):

      some of us are pulling in 20-30% profits per day *TRADING* these "silly" Bitcoins

      He was talking about trading bitcoints, not mining for them. Trading is not energy-intensive process (mining is).
      And in trading, you can have profits during the crash as well as during the rise.

      That said however, doubt the OP is profiting that much each day - average profit margin i probably less (and speculating on the wrong side can make nasty cuts in this volatile market)

    26. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by lwsimon · · Score: 1

      The instability is part of the system - it's not a bug.

      --
      Learn about Photography Basics.
    27. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by makomk · · Score: 1

      If I was using Bitcoin for "very fast, nearly free transfer of currency anywhere in the world" I'd care because every time I used it to transfer money, I'd have to risk losing a large chunk of it to speculators as a result of the vale being so unstable. That's why I don't tend to use it.

    28. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      He really just likes to gamble. If he decided to get good a blackjack he could probably do even better with an average 1% return on each dollar bet. Granted this takes a lot of effort but can be done as evidence by the MIT students who did it yeas ago.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    29. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a ponzi scheme to me.
      1. Substantially higher than market returns. Check
      2. A requirement that new people keep coming in to the system. Check
      3. Lots of hand waving on how the system works. Check

      You could probably do better if you learned how to count cards and then go to Vegas with a few people and do what the MIT students did.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    30. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Agreed 100% if he made money on mining, but mining is stupidly risky, something between blind gambling and cage-match HFT. But there are other ways to make money from BitCoin.

      BitCoin mining is retarded, but the whole system isn't stupid.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    31. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Sigh.... there is no -1/Wrong moderation....

      -1 Overrated?

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    32. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Yunzil · · Score: 1

      Eh, you geeks may scoff but some of us are pulling in 20-30% profits *PER DAY* trading these "silly" Bitcoins.

      30% of nothing is still nothing.

      Anyone that hates without backing it up is just trying to feed you disinformation.

      What if we hate and can point out the numerous reason why bitcoins are utterly stupid?

    33. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      You realize that no serious organization and no serious individual will ever use an unstable currency, I hope? Even the "Gold Standard" libertards gets that.

    34. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Khyber · · Score: 0

      How do you think my LED business got funded in the first place?

      So not only has BitCoin made me money, but now I'm making millions BECAUSE of BitCoin existing, as without it I'd have never gotten my funding capital for my business.

      But feel free to keep thinking INSIDE the box!

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    35. Re:You laugh, and we profit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought it was from the PHENOMENAL settlement you got from sony. Maybe you invested it in BTC!

  12. Yes, precisely. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I would like to see you try to connect to an Ethernet network without a MAC. Yes, they "just work", but they are also requisite.

    One lame troll deserves another, eh?

  13. New Trojan produces Quantitative Easing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So it pulls money from thin air?

    How is this any different from when the Federal Reserve bailed out AIG (who had to pay out on a lot of CDS betting slips and didn't have enough money to pay out on them) by creating money to bail them out from thin air? Those betting slips aren't worth anything they're negative value, but Federal reserve pays creates positive money for them.

    How is it any different from some trojan creating Bitcoins from nothing? How is it any diferent from the UK and US Quantitative Easing programs?

    If you created that money and handed it to Goldman Sachs would that be any different that creating the money and handing it to some hacker? In what way?

    1. Re:New Trojan produces Quantitative Easing by fyngyrz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Because bitcoins want to be free! And, and, they're like... BEER! And... noone accepts them for anything, so you can save a LOT of 'em without being tempted to spend 'em! An... an... they keep you from having to do Real Work! "Honey, don't bother me, I'm minting bitcoins!"

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    2. Re:New Trojan produces Quantitative Easing by throwaway18 · · Score: 2

      Anyone can mine bitcoins, you don't have to be a politically connected bankster to participate.

      The creation of new BTC is predictable and publicly documented.
      Participation is voluntary. Anyone can read about how it works, see that the the amount of BTC in circulation is going to more than double in the next five years, see that the level of commerce with BTC is low and decide if they want to hold any. (Personally I think holding BTC is a bad idea and will be for a years unless commerce increases considerably.)

      Having your fiat currency devalued to cover the deficit spending of long retired spendthrift politicans is not voluntary.

    3. Re:New Trojan produces Quantitative Easing by makomk · · Score: 1

      Of course, unless you were well connected and got in early, it'll probably cost you more to mine than you'll actually make. Bitcoin was designed to seriously benefit the early adopters. It looks like part of the reason the price dropped so much was them selling their huge holdings and making a vast real-money profit whilst the majority of users got screwed. (Some had millions of dollars worth of bitcoins from relatively casual, low-risk and low-cost mining.)

    4. Re:New Trojan produces Quantitative Easing by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      (Some had millions of dollars worth of bitcoins from relatively casual, low-risk and low-cost mining.)

      easy come easy go
      currency is supposed to be a token representing value, if large quantities are attainable without doing or making something of value, it will fail.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
  14. Crooks follow the money! by pearl298 · · Score: 1

    While I admire the idealism of the BitCoin project, I have to remember a couple of essential functions provided by (evil!) Government control of "fiat" currency!

    1) ANY "fiat" currency is intended first and foremost to "promote commerce" and the first need of any actual business that uses the currency is STABILITY. NO (evil!!) government would ever have allowed the "run up" and "crash" of BitCoins that we have seen over the past few months.

    2) Governments chase/catch/punish crooks and swindlers - probably that is what they do the very best! Now that BitCoin actually has (had?) "significant" value it inevitably attracts "significant" crooks! But BirCoin HAS NO (EVIL!!!!) Government to catch the crooks!

    One wonders at the sophistication of the crooks (e.g. Madoff) if BitCoins had risen to US$300/coin ($3K/30K or ???).

    1. Re:Crooks follow the money! by bytesex · · Score: 1

      Stopped reading your post after I saw the "fiat" was in quotes. Hint: it shows off your I-want-the-gold-standard-back total-nutter credentials.

      --
      Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
    2. Re:Crooks follow the money! by pearl298 · · Score: 1

      Stopped reading your post after I saw the "fiat" was in quotes. Hint: it shows off your I-want-the-gold-standard-back total-nutter credentials.

      To the contrary, I used quotes to denote the technical use of the term "fiat" as used by the BitCoin promoters.

      History shows that the price of Gold is one of the most manipulated forms of "currency"!
      Take a close look at what FDR did to the price of gold during his "New Deal" and what is happening today.

      As one analyst observes, paper has more value than Gold based on supply and demand. The "supply" of paper is far more constrained than Gold, but the demand for both for "utilitarian" purposes is declining. The only reason Gold sells for more than approx $1/oz (wild guess) is speculation and scare mongering.


      The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that it is difficult to determine whether or not they are genuine - Abraham Lincoln

  15. When I was a kid I wanted to do that too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I was a kid I wanted to buy a machine that could make money, so I could buy even more such machines, and get a spill over effect on me, and go to the candy store

  16. boring by pbjones · · Score: 1

    "together with several software applications" the article only says 1, possibly other apps. Bah! Stupid people not being careful deserve to get a trojan.

    --
    There was an unknown error in the submission.
    1. Re:boring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AMEN!!!

  17. bitcoin works... by zachie · · Score: 1

    ... at least to some extent; this is further evidence. It must feel pretty bad for some that crooks understand bitcoin so much better than the blindfolded "bitcoin is a ponzi scheme" haters. Then of course bitcoin has its problems, but it is so seldom that bitcoin critic posts make informed points.

    1. Re:bitcoin works... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      bitcoin works at least to some extent; this is further evidence.

      Well it's evidence there are suckers^Wcustomers who are still prepared to buy the things albiet at drastically reduced prices compared to the peak. It doesn't really say much more than that.

      I don't think anyone has ever seriously disputed that bitcoin works technically. The real questions are

      1: does it work economically? can it ever become stable enough that people seriously use it for commerce rather than just mining it/speculating on it/stealing it/making a few token transactions in it to stick it to the man?
      2: will the powers that be decide to try and kill it?

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    2. Re:bitcoin works... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are not aware how tons of posts have dismissed bitcoin as a ponzi scheme (which are the kind of posts I was refering to), then I can only say, look again.

  18. Wrong, buddy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only thing "backing" dollars is the fact that people accept them - that's it. Nobody forces you to accept them, not even the government. Bartering is perfectly legal in this country - you have choice. So when you say "backing", you're practicing an anachronism, a turn of phrase used by "gold standard" nuts. As in, dollars are "backed" by gold. Meaning you can exchange your dollars for gold, something that hasn't been true since the 30s. Bitcoins are just as valid as dollars, as long as their marketing plan was as good as the United State's government's. Lately their marketing has sucked, mainly because of the the MtGox break-in. And because the establishment has invested in dollars - not bitcoins. So the media as an extension of the establishment has come out against Bitcoins for the most part. All of which are irrelevant to me, as long as other people accept Bitcoins for services and money. What you think doesn't matter.

    1. Re:Wrong, buddy by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      The only thing "backing" dollars is the fact that people accept them - that's it. Nobody forces you to accept them, not even the government.

      Afaict in the US you are forced to pay your taxes in US dollars. That means that at some point you must exchange some portion of whatever it is you have of value for dollars. The government also went through a phase of trying to force people to exchange their gold for dollars.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    2. Re:Wrong, buddy by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      The value of US money is backed by its government, banking institutions, and the physical & economic resources it is tied to. Bitcoin is tied to nothing but artificial scarcity, hence is unstable by comparison. You might not like it, but the very "establishment" is what backs bank notes.

  19. Not popular, not currency by GrandCow · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Bitcoin is in a lot of trouble at the moment.

    It is not popular, since the speculators have mostly disappeared at this point. They got in on the market upswing, moving the price to almost $30 per bitcoin for a brief moment. As soon as the speculators reached their plateau, the sell-off began. Bitcoins are selling for 5-10% of what they were selling at their peak. You can expect to get between $1.50 and $3.00 per bitcoin at this point. The true believers still claim that it's coming back, but a single look at any price graph shows that in the end, anything you put into bitcoin is a lost cause. The price continues to drop as more people get out and sell what they have, plus the people "mining" bitcoins selling at whatever the current lowest price is. ALL of the major exchanges have been "hacked" at some point. I say this in quotes because there has never been any proof that the owners of each exchange didn't just decide to take the money and run, which they could have done at any time with ZERO repercussions. One of the larger exchanges was blatant enough to take everything but offer 49% back of what you lost if you'd just use them again (but accept the service fees), as opposed to the others that just delete the website and sell the coins on other markets.

    The reason that this is all possible is: bitcoin isn't a currency! It is the same as trading rocks with numbers painted on them to say how much they are worth; this means there is no regulation. It's not anywhere near any other currency in the world because it doesn't have a government backing up it's value. As much as the different sites claim that it is going to change the world, bitcoin itself is being challenged in court and both results are bad for it. If it is declared a currency, the regulations alone will destroy it. If it is declared not a currency (which it is not), it will be destroyed by all sorts of fraud charges.

    Stay away from bitcoin at all costs.

    --
    "Well kids, you tried your best, and you failed. The lesson is, never try." -Homer Simpson
    1. Re:Not popular, not currency by throwaway18 · · Score: 0

      Bitcoin is not in trouble.

      Some idiot speculators lost their money. Some people who were stupid enough to trust online wallet services lost their money. Some people who got their windows machines infected lost money. A few idiots who didn't keep backups lost their money. The people who are holding BTC are likely to find it looses value for years but it was their choice to get into it in the first place.

      The system still works fine. You can still transfer bitcoins from one user to another across the internet with a few clicks. If you keep your private keys safe nobody can steal your coins.

      Bitcoin will be in trouble if a significant attack on the cryptography is found.
      Bitcoin will be in really big trouble if someone finds a remotely exploitable hole in the client software.

      So far, it is not in trouble.
      It can drop in value to 1 US cent per BTC and still not be in trouble.

    2. Re:Not popular, not currency by DrXym · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Of course it is in trouble. It's always been in trouble. It's naively implemented, the client software was insecure, many of the exchanges were insecure, it faced (and still does) huge regulatory questions, it was a magnet for scammers, hackers & drug dealers, it was hyped through group think into a huge bubble which has since collapsed, people hoarded coins rather than spending them and are now panic selling, and the system itself has many of the characteristics of a ponzi / pyramid scheme. I'm sure some people profited from it, and many more didn't. It's a broken system and this much has been obvious for a long time.

    3. Re:Not popular, not currency by subreality · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Some of us are glad to see the price drop. I just want to send money to people without PayPal taking a cut or getting a say in who I can send it to. As such, it makes no difference to me what the price is - I can send 3 coins worth $10 or 10 coins worth $3, and it's all the same.

      The price drop has crushed the "get rich quick" crowd, and good riddance. Hopefully they learned their lesson and will stay gone so the rest of us can get back to actually trying to USE Bitcoin for something, and see what it's good for.

      Even if it still has terminal problems, it's a damned interesting experiment. We've already learned some important things - like, don't set your currency up so it can turn into a pyramid scheme. Hopefully that's burned itself out, and we can see what the next problem will be. The more we learn, the better Bitcoin2 will be.

      A few quick debunks:

      No, not all the exchanges have been hacked. MtGox (the big one) got hacked, but had adequate second-line defenses in place to contain the problem, and it didn't affect customers. Bitcoin7 was a bunch of incompetent dorks from the start. We told that to the world, but hey, some people don't listen. MyBitcoin was a wallet service run completely anonymously... I still find it unbelievable that people would give their money to some anonymous guy who promises to be really careful with it. I guess we needed the example to teach people the hard way? Those are all black eyes, but there are far more services that have been running smoothly.

      Bitcoin is different from painting numbers on rocks. Anyone can paint numbers on rocks and devalue the rest of them. Bitcoins are generated in fixed quantities (500 per hour, decreasing to 250 per hour in about a year, with further decreases in the future), resulting in a small and predictable amount of inflation.

      It is a currency: you can trade it for things. It might not have the same properties as some currencies you're used to, and it's quite possible it's not a good currency depending how you want to use it, but it is most certainly a currency.

      Declaring it a currency doesn't destroy it through regulation. There are many non-federal-government-issue currencies operating in the United States without problem.

      There IS a lot of fraud occurring. That's largely because people are used to electronic transactions being like PayPal or Visa - highly traceable and reversible. Bitcoin is much more like cash - don't give it to someone unless you trust them! That's an inherent tradeoff, but not necessarily a design flaw. Like I said, I don't want PayPal looking over my shoulder, telling me I can't send money for porn or WikiLeaks, and taking a cut for the privilege. I want something that works like cash, and I accept the responsibility that securing my cash requires! When (if?) people learn to see it that way, the fraud will decline. Again, it's not for everyone and everything, but I think it has a place.

    4. Re:Not popular, not currency by petermgreen · · Score: 2

      Some of us are glad to see the price drop. I just want to send money to people without PayPal taking a cut or getting a say in who I can send it to. As such, it makes no difference to me what the price is - I can send 3 coins worth $10 or 10 coins worth $3, and it's all the same.

      But what do you do with those coins when you receive them?

      If you keep them then you are exposing yourself to the massive price volatility and general decline of bitcoin's value.
      If you sell them and keep your money on the exchange you will likely be hit with fees for the trade and you are putting your money at risk of the exchange going tits-up.
      If you sell them and withdraw your money you will pay even more fees.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    5. Re:Not popular, not currency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how is the client software insecure? don't think it's remotely exploitable or anything like that. sure, the wallet was unencrypted but if your attacker has access to that you're done anyway.

    6. Re:Not popular, not currency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you sell them and keep your money on the exchange you will likely be hit with fees for the trade and you are putting your money at risk of the exchange going tits-up.

      Sounds like a bank with service fees. Banks without a large capital backing are always at risk of bankruptcy.

      If you sell them and withdraw your money you will pay even more fees.

      Sounds like using a credit card. You know that Visa and Mastercard take a 2% cut of everything you buy with a card, right?

    7. Re:Not popular, not currency by DrXym · · Score: 1
      You've just said it. Pre 0.4.0, the wallet is insecure, it's not encrypted, it's in a predictable location, everything goes in the one wallet. A driveby attack could steal the wallet, a trojan could steal the wallet. Once they had the wallet it was trivial to extract the bitcoins and transfer it. The exposure is just not limited to the time the bitcoin client is running either since the file is plaintext. Off the top of my head I can think of various ways it could have been secured:
      • Create the wallet in an unpredictable location to stop drive-by attacks.
      • Encrypt the wallet by default so that while the client is not running the wallet is unreadable. This key could have been generated in the registry or the user's home folder or ...
      • Expose this encryption to the user and require them to create / enter their own passphrase by default. If a user absolutely did not want crypto it should be an opt-out action.
      • Set timers to close the wallet after a period of inactivity with sensible defaults, e.g. 15 minutes.
      • Allow user to create and manage multiple wallets from the same client. Not accounts, wallets. Wallets could contain multiple accounts but each wallet could be opened independently of any other, protected independently of any other and the client would provide facilities to move money from one wallet to another.
      • By default the client creates a wallet for incoming / pending requests (unencrypted), receivables (encrypted) and one for savings (encrypted). The idea being users would move incoming from one wallet to another as their needs dictate. The unencrypted wallet would be for times when the user's wallets are closed to hold incoming transactions and would automatically flush into the receivables wallet when the user next opened it.
      • Review the RPC / JSON API that the client exposes to miners and even if server mode is enabled, disable actions that most miners have no business ever needing or calling, e.g. wallet backup, lists of transactions and so forth
      • Full code audit.

      Note I said pre 0.4.0 above. 0.4.0 does provide opt-in encryption which is a start but it should be the default and doesn't take many other measures I hilighted. This sort of stuff should have been considered from the get go and highlights the naivety of the project. Nothing would protect a determined trojan with full keylogging but all of the above would certainly make the client secure by default and would absolutely have prevented some notable thefts.

    8. Re:Not popular, not currency by subreality · · Score: 1

      Right now I keep all my money in dollars, trading in shortly before sending and trading out when I receive. Yes, trading fees suck, but for the small amounts I use I don't really care; it's a fair price to pay to get some experience with cryptocurrency. The 0.5% fees to trade in and out (1% round trip) are still considerably lower than what Visa or Paypal charge.

      It's far from certain, but I'm hoping it will eventually stabilize after the get-rich-quick jackoffs finish going broke; then I could keep some "pocket money" in coins.

    9. Re:Not popular, not currency by gallondr00nk · · Score: 1

      The reason that this is all possible is: bitcoin isn't a currency! It is the same as trading rocks with numbers painted on them to say how much they are worth.

      To be fair, all our currencies work this way. The one, sole difference between a dollar and a rock painted with a number is that we believe the former is worth something. Currency is a mass hallucination of value.

    10. Re:Not popular, not currency by Amtrak · · Score: 1

      Wait painting numbers on rocks, why do that when we can mold, stamp, engrave the numbers right onto our rocks of element number 79! Hey, while were at it why don't we add some official looking seals and the head of some dead guy.

    11. Re:Not popular, not currency by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a bank with service fees. Banks without a large capital backing are always at risk of bankruptcy.

      Real banks are backed up by national governments. Bitcoin exchanges are not.

      You know that Visa and Mastercard take a 2% cut of everything you buy with a card, right?

      I know they take a cut, afaict how big that cut is depends on the merchant. OTOH they also give you a month or more of interest free credit which balances out some (not all obviously) of that cut.

      Afaict the only way using bitcoin is likely to end up with less fees than conventional transfers is if you keep the money "in the bitcoin system" either in the form or bitcoins or in the form of cash balances at bitcoin exchanges. Both are risky for different reasons (the former because of the volatitily and general decline) of bitcoin, the latter because of the fact that

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    12. Re:Not popular, not currency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a relevant currency and more or less a pyramid scheme to launder money and not too good at that. I really doubt it will be around much longer and the sooner the better. Not in trouble...

    13. Re:Not popular, not currency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a scam.
      A simple pump and dump and nothing more.

    14. Re:Not popular, not currency by makomk · · Score: 1

      No, not all the exchanges have been hacked. MtGox (the big one) got hacked, but had adequate second-line defenses in place to contain the problem, and it didn't affect customers.

      The attacker was incompetent. They had full database write access; if they'd known what they were doing they could've created a whole bunch of accounts with smaller amounts in and withdrawn Mt Gox's entire online reserve of bitcoins, leaving them with too few to fulfill their obligations, but instead they created one big account and ran up against the withdrawal limit.

    15. Re:Not popular, not currency by Zironic · · Score: 1

      No, the difference is that the dollar is backed by a government with a vested interest in the stability of its value.

    16. Re:Not popular, not currency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Trading rocks with numbers painted on them

      so you're saying it's like gold bullion?

    17. Re:Not popular, not currency by murdocj · · Score: 1

      You know that with credit cards I'm protected against loss, have traceability, have the ability to dispute charges, right? With Bitcoin I have... what?

    18. Re:Not popular, not currency by doston · · Score: 0

      >Of course it is in trouble. It's always been in trouble. It's naively implemented, the client software was insecure, many of the exchanges were insecure, it faced (and still does) huge regulatory questions, it was a magnet for scammers, hackers & drug dealers, it was hyped through group think into a huge bubble which has since collapsed, people hoarded coins rather than spending them and are now panic selling, and the system itself has many of the characteristics of a ponzi / pyramid scheme. I'm sure some people profited from it, and many more didn't. It's a broken system and this much has been obvious for a long time. You could have just as easily been describing US currency

    19. Re:Not popular, not currency by DrXym · · Score: 1

      Except of course I wasn't and this sort of "tu quoque" retort is appears to be a favourite arsenal whenever bitcoin is criticised.

    20. Re:Not popular, not currency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if it still has terminal problems, it's a damned interesting experiment. We've already learned some important things - like, don't set your currency up so it can turn into a pyramid scheme. Hopefully that's burned itself out, and we can see what the next problem will be. The more we learn, the better Bitcoin2 will be.

      The market can be cornered in any commodity (money is a commodity, remember), but easiest in commodities with low volume and low liquidity. Like, say, obscure alternative currencies. The part of the Bitcoin scheme that turned it into a pyramid in this phase is related to other terminal problems, so I'll discuss it below.

      Bitcoin is different from painting numbers on rocks. Anyone can paint numbers on rocks and devalue the rest of them. Bitcoins are generated in fixed quantities (500 per hour, decreasing to 250 per hour in about a year, with further decreases in the future), resulting in a small and predictable amount of inflation.

      I think you've gotten your terms reversed; right now it may be inflation, but if Bitcoins were ever used in reasonable quantities the result would be massive and inevitable deflation (constant falls in prices), which puts a serious damper on economic activity; why buy now, or risk money in a dangerous venture, when you know your money will be worth more if you hide it under a (virtual) mattress?

      The initial phase of massive minting followed by a planned slowing of the inflation rate below the growth in money demand is what gives Bitcoin its pyramid scheme qualities; getting in on the ground floor with a stockpile of money designed to inevitably rise in value, an opportunity forever denied later joiners, isn't entirely dissimilar to a pyramid scheme. It's not entirely like a pyramid scheme, either, but it does nothing to reassure potential future users that the scheme is honest.

      It is a currency: you can trade it for things. It might not have the same properties as some currencies you're used to, and it's quite possible it's not a good currency depending how you want to use it, but it is most certainly a currency.

      Declaring it a currency doesn't destroy it through regulation. There are many non-federal-government-issue currencies operating in the United States without problem.

      You can trade it for things...as long as there's someone happy to make the trade with you. Government-backed currencies have demand created for them by being declared legal tender (the currency must be accepted as payment for any debt already incurred and must be accepted for tax payments). Bitcoin is only a currency as long as the users treat it like a currency. That has happened in the recent past, in the case of the Iraqi "Swiss dinar," but it had a much larger and more stable userbase. Bitcoin could settle down and become a niche like e-gold, but the business model is too deeply flawed to get beyond that.

      Incidentally, e-gold was closed down by the US Government on the grounds that it was used for money laundering and scams. Bitcoin is going to be used for the same purposes and its only defense is decentralization.

    21. Re:Not popular, not currency by Yunzil · · Score: 1

      Bitcoin is different from painting numbers on rocks

      Yes it is. If I had a rock with a number painted on it, at least I'd have a rock.

    22. Re:Not popular, not currency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bitcoin is in a lot of trouble at the moment.

      Yeah more sane price stability is a beeyotch.

      Bitcoins are selling for 5-10% of what they were selling at their peak. You can expect to get between $1.50 and $3.00 per bitcoin at this point.

      Let me populate your rectal knowledge base for you. $3.00+ USD/BTC for almost a week. Still 3x more profitable than when I bought in, and still 2x more profitable than electricity every month. Oh yeah, and my hardware has expanded and all paid for.

      The true believers still claim that it's coming back, but a single look at any price graph shows that in the end, anything you put into bitcoin is a lost cause. The price continues to drop as more people get out and sell what they have, plus the people "mining" bitcoins selling at whatever the current lowest price is. ALL of the major exchanges have been "hacked" at some point. I say this in quotes because there has never been any proof that the owners of each exchange didn't just decide to take the money and run, which they could have done at any time with ZERO repercussions. One of the larger exchanges was blatant enough to take everything but offer 49% back of what you lost if you'd just use them again (but accept the service fees), as opposed to the others that just delete the website and sell the coins on other markets. The reason that this is all possible is: bitcoin isn't a currency! It is the same as trading rocks with numbers painted on them to say how much they are worth; this means there is no regulation.

      Bunch of rambling half truth. We get it, you don't like it.

      It's not anywhere near any other currency in the world because it doesn't have a government backing up it's value.

      Indeed, because government backed currency is doing so well. But hey, it's regulated and backed by the government. Enjoy your government backed currency inflating indefinitely. At least Bitcoin will stop inflating by rule.

    23. Re:Not popular, not currency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'Massive price volatility' will likely rely on whether or not people learned their lesson the first time; that Bitcoins should not be treated as a get rich quick scheme.

  20. Neither is this volutary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Having your fiat currency devalued to cover the deficit spending of long retired spendthrift politicans is not voluntary."

    And neither is this voluntary, it's a violation of Bitcoin rules. In the federal reserve creating money and buying negative value junk, that's illegal too, they legally cannot accept the junk AIG gave them for the money.

    It's the same thing, Bitcoin would be a new currency that cannot continue because thieves simply magic it from thin air, and likewise if they continue with QE, US$ cannot continue because thieves in Wallstreet have been treated like banks and are simply magic'ing massive amounts of new money into circulation.

    I know which one I'd like to see prosecuted the most.

  21. Bitcoins are small beer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are roughly 7 million bitcoins in circulation, and they are trading at about $3. If Bitcoin was a company, its market capitalisation would be $21 Million. That's not really very much money for a project with this much hype. Nobody will ever buy a luxury yacht or a private jet with bitcoins, because even if they owned every coin in circulation they still could not pay for it.

  22. and... by euyis · · Score: 1

    Should this be called "digital slave labor"?

  23. Easy to spot by Hentes · · Score: 1

    The point of a trojan is that it's hiding and doing its stuff undercover. Using a VGA all the time is pretty easy to notice.

    1. Re:Easy to spot by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Well, they already have an advanced version using SVGA instead. :-)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  24. My suspicion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is that this is a very obscure art project, executed by a master programmer. Seriously, parallel processing? On the OSX architecture? With a virus? Using the GPGPU? For Bitcoins? The algorithmic complexity is enormous.

  25. OpenCL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does it use OpenCL to harness the GPU power?

  26. Not an ethical use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been researching malware for the last 5 years, and I have to say that modern malware is typically a lot less advanced than it could be. Apart from interesting once-in-a-while malware that gets large media attention (but even then which does not go the whole hog and implement more useful features), malware authors seem to be moving into other areas. Hey, maybe most of them are developing ethical,free software now!

    This program is a waste of resources, regardless of whether bitcoin is a viable currency or not, no-one should be using computer time in an unauthorized or unannounced fashion for their own benefit. It's just rude. I would agree with 'malware' which contributed to Folding@Home or one of these useful projects for the good of mankind as long as it announced its presence and asked for authorization first.(which is still in a gray area I think)

    Bitcoin mining really only benefits one person and shouldn't be done in this manner at all.

  27. Don't scare me like that by hellfire · · Score: 1

    You sent this cold shiver running up and down my spine. Then I realized you weren't talking about the American Stock Market. Thank god!

    --

    "All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"

  28. To be clear... by mathimus1863 · · Score: 1

    Bitcoin has some intrinsic value -- but unfortunately, most of this value has the most impact on those doing illegal or unethical things. The ability to control and move them across the globe, nearly instantaneously, with no restrictions or fees, and without the ability of any government/bank to stop/freeze it, has produced quite a market for it (and it can be anonymous if you know what you're doing). You say it has no value, but what about Wikileaks who have had 95% of their assets and income cut off by governments and banks freezing their money. They'd still be 100% functional if they were dealing in BTC. And of course, the drug trade benefits too. These aren't the most "ethical" reasons for it to have value, but they don't have to be good reasons to impart actual value. The fact is, there are people who want BTC, and as long as there's a scarce amount of it, it's going to acquire value in the minds of some. (BTW, I have no interest in these unethical properties, I'm all for BTC because of the fact I have control over it, and don't have to pay anyone or give out any information to use it).

    To those arguing about bubbles -- I'm interested to see how this exactly looks like a bubble. Bubbles burst, BTC didn't. The fact is there's still lots of people involved in BTC, there just happens to be more people selling than buying, which is why the prices has declined slowly over months... it didn't just collapse in a week like most bubbles.

    Personally, I'm happy to see all the speculators get out of BTC, and hopefully it can maintain some degree of stability now without all the gambling. Unfortunately, botnets and Trojans like this are probably the biggest reason for the price decline, as their constant sell-off causes negative pressure on the prices. But what is interesting is that so far no one has actually succeeded at attacking the protocol itself. Sure, individual websites/exchanges get attacked, but the protocol itself remains secure. I think it's worth something that the botnet owners have decided to play by the rules of BTC... because if they could break the system to make a quick buck, they would. But so far there has been $20,000,000+ worth of value in the BTC for many months, which is plenty incentive for every unethical person in the world to break it--yet no one has.

    I'm not convinced that Bitcoin 1.0 (right now) will survive the test of time. It's security is great, but it's name has been soiled, and some lessons learned really need to be applied, but cannot be once the beast is set in motion. I wouldn't be surprised if it stuck around for a while, but even if it doesn't, something else will replace it. There's too much value in "freedom-enhancing" currencies, and there's no doubt that Bitcoin has been a proof-of-concept for it that it works.

    P.S. - Bitcoin really shouldn't be referred to as a "currency." It's more like a commodity, similar to gold, since there is a finite amount of it in the world. If BTC is going to survive the legal battles, it would be best for its supporters to not fight for it as a currency, as that can open it up to all kinds of legal attacks.

    1. Re:To be clear... by Zironic · · Score: 1

      "They'd still be 100% functional if they were dealing in BTC. "
      No they wouldn't. At some point you need to translate the BTC into real world currency, and at that point you need to do business with the real world financial institutions and still suffer the full risk of getting your assets frozen.

      Not to mention that having value stored in BTC is suicidal due to its volatility. No business can survive a 90% value loss due to fluctuation.

    2. Re:To be clear... by mathimus1863 · · Score: 1

      Someone purchases X BTC from an exchange, donates it to Wikileaks anonymously and easily. Wikileaks then sells X BTC to an exchange -- or if there is a problem with official bank transfers, I'm sure they can sell to investors who would be happy to buy for 10% off. In the end, Wiki leaks gets the 90%*X*exchangerate, which is dramatically better than the 95% loss due to income due to gov't/bank freezes on assets and transfers. The volatility risk is only in the time between when they receive the BTC and when they sell it, which is a very short time given how fast BTC transactions can happen.

  29. Here come the fanbois... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Before the Windows fanbois get here - one must download some pirated software and install it to get the Trojan that... does... nothing in particular since it does something with bitcoins. It probably also hacks your Google+ account, but let's be honest: no one cares.

    Also, ftfa - "[DevilRobber] also spies on you by taking screen captures and stealing your usernames and passwords"... right, because all those passwords are plaintext on screen, amirite? Just a software vendor trying to scare mac users into buying their useless software; more at 11.

    1. Re:Here come the fanbois... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      It doesn't say that it steals usernames and passwords by taking screenshots, does it?
      I mean just because it takes screenshots doesn't mean it cannot do other things as well, like watching your keyboard while the input focus is on a password field.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  30. A great anti-piracy strategy by Quadari · · Score: 1

    If I were Lemkesoft (publisher of Graphic Converter), I would be really happy about this. What better way to get more people to buy legitimate copies of your program then by scaring them with examples of how stealing the program leads to malware. Maybe software publishers should think about doing this on purpose. If they flooded the torrent world with malware-infected versions of their software then it might scare some users straight.

    1. Re:A great anti-piracy strategy by matthiasvegh · · Score: 1

      Except almost all scene releases are flagged malware by virusscanners, so pirates are extremely desensitized to this.

  31. Great Idea. Bad Implementation. by tom229 · · Score: 1

    Bitcoin is fantastic, but the way it is distributed is not.

    Aggregating bitcoin to the most efficient "farmer" is like bringing a currency into existence by throwing out handfuls of it to a wild mob at varying times of the day. This is why the coin still has very little value as relates to real world goods or services and why it is plagued by these get-rich-quick ponzi schemes.

    If a government entity could somehow be convinced to create bitcoin at a defined rate to pay for public services while also accepting it as a payment for taxes then the currency would have legitimacy and would be a wonderful, wonderful thing.

    --
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
  32. Can we stop calling them Trojans, please? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A Trojan is a condom.

    These things are Trojan Horses - you know, the friendly-looking gift that gains access by earning your trust through false pretenses?

  33. Popular? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did anyone else kinda do a double-take when they read the "a popular type of virtual currency" part?

    Sorry, when I think bitcoin, the word 'popular' is about the last adjective to come to mind.

    1. Re:Popular? by neminem · · Score: 1

      It's certainly a popular type of virtual currency. I'm reminded of this recent languagelog post: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3494 - it is obviously not a popular type of currency, but if you compare it to other *virtual* currencies, it's certainly one of the most popular. (What would beat it? Currencies of a few games, maybe.)

  34. If you use an OS without security... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you use an OS without security, this is what happens.

    Security through obscurity isn't security.

  35. How long ago did the BitCoin crash occur? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's the likelihood of people knowing about this trojan before it hit the news? What's the likelihood of them knowing about it and then cashing out their BitCoins, causing the crash in their value that we saw not so long ago?

    Insider trading, indeed...

  36. DevilRobber Trojan by SlashedReader · · Score: 1

    According to Intego, this malware is fairly sophisticated in its actions, but it is not very widespread. http://blog.intego.com/new-malware-devilrobber-grabs-files-and-bitcoins-performs-bitcoin-mining-and-more/ For now, security researchers have only seen DevilRobber in a handful of Mac applications distributed via BitTorrent trackers. So as long as you avoid downloading software from untrusted sites, you should be OK.