Chevy Volt Fire Prompts Safety Investigation For EV Batteries

Three weeks after undergoing a crash test, a Chevy Volt caught fire. The car's battery was determined as the cause of the fire, though GM said its protocols for deactivating the battery following a crash would have prevented it. Either way, the National Highway Traffic Safety Association is now on the case. They're planning additional testing of the batteries, though they were quick to say, "Based on the available data, N.H.T.S.A. does not believe the Volt or other electric vehicles are at a greater risk of fire than gasoline-powered vehicles. In fact, all vehicles — both electric and gasoline-powered — have some risk of fire in the event of a serious crash." According to the president of an engineering firm, "If a lithium battery is pierced by steel, a chemical reaction will take place that starts raising the temperature and can result in a fire... If the piercing is small, that reaction can take days or weeks to occur."

Comments

let's forbid life

[emilper]

... it causes death 100% of the time

Why have Americans become nancies?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you want to know why the American economy is swirling down the shitter? It's became Americans have become nancies. They have become sissies, if you will. They don't have the guts to take real risks. They don't have the guts to try something new.

Maybe this shouldn't be surprising. America often has been a backward "conservative" nation for much of its history. Aside from a few generations at the very beginning of America's modern history, the tolerance for risk has been decreasing rapidly. Without real risk you can't have real gain.

This story is a perfect example. This is clearly a very minor issue with a simple solution: if the vehicle gets into a collision, change the fucking batteries! But America as a culture will overlook this, and will overlook the immense economic and environmental benefits that these vehicles would bring, because they are TOO FUCKING SCARED to take what's a very minor risk.

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[mosb1000]

Americans have become nancies. They have become sissies, if you will.

Well, is it nancies or sissies? Make up your mind. We Americans also have little tolerance for flip-floppers such as yourself.

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[smpoole7]

> Americans have become nancies ...

Oh, I agree with that. If present attitudes had been applied to the 1800's, homesteading would have been stopped before it started because (horrors!) some of the pioneers were dying as they made their way across the plains.

But on the other hand, as a practical matter, I think we need a "Moore's Law" applied to batteries. The batteries that we're using now in electric cars and hybrids are huge, dangerous and expensive. (Buy a Prius, then ask how much it's going to cost to replace those batteries in a few years. You'll probably pass out from the shock.)

In other words -- again, just speaking practically -- I think that electric cars are a great idea, but I don't think the battery technology is there yet.

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[DamonHD]

The tanks of volatile hydrocarbons in ICE cars and hybrids are huge, dangerous, and expensive.

In fact, there's a lot less stored energy in an EV than in a petrol/gas tank.

Rgds

Damon

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[khallow]

Maybe this shouldn't be surprising. America often has been a backward "conservative" nation for much of its history. Aside from a few generations at the very beginning of America's modern history, the tolerance for risk has been decreasing rapidly. Without real risk you can't have real gain.

I don't know why you think that. This risk-adverseness is clearly recent, with most of it happening in the last 50 years.

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[Bysshe]

Agreed. Stop litigating (or at least stop granting such retardedly large compensation claims). This will encourage the businesses to stay in the US, be more innovative, an funnel resources to things like R&D.

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[Pharmboy]

I get what you are saying and agree that many Americans have become pussies, forcing children to wear helmets, etc., but it is recent and not all encompassing.

We made it to the moon before the Soviets solely because we were willing to take larger risks than they were with human lives. I'm betting the US leads the world in recreational activities that are risky: bungee, BASE jumping, etc. We shoot each other more often, we use more dangerous drugs than any other nation. Our civilian population has more weapons than the majority of countries have in their entire militaries (well over 300 million civilian firearms in the US). Compared to any other developed cultures I can think of, Americans live much closer to the edge.

The problem in America isn't the average American, it is the average American politician cowtows to the cries of a very few pussies, while the majority of people have no problem with the risk. One person can yell "think of the children!!!" and a law gets passed, and the rest of us are simply taken for a ride. The problem is political.

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[timeOday]

Do you want to know why the American economy is swirling down the shitter? It's became Americans have become nancies. They have become sissies, if you will. They don't have the guts to take real risks.

That's incredibly ironic, since the *actual* reason the economy is in the shitter is because of reckless risk-taking (over-leveraging). Boom and bust, greed and fear, the endless cycle.

Secondly, the Chevy Volt has not been banned or recalled, even after the fire. So if anything it's evidence that people do tolerate some level of risk.

It just amazes me so many people will jump in to support an idea that attracts them, even if it flies in the face of the case in point.

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[phulegart]

How is this comment tagged as Insightful? There must be a metric ton of non-Americans who are ignorant of what life is like over here.

For example. They are ignorant of the large number of people driving without licenses, in unregistered, uninsured, and un-inspected vehicles. I am not claiming that this phenomenon is limited to the USA, I am instead pointing out that the tolerance for risk has NOT decreased at the rate it is apparently assumed. That's in just one small way as well. Then there are the many permutations based on that scenario.... unlicensed driver in a friend's car, licensed driver in an uninsured car, etc. Then there are the drunk drivers... sometimes, there are drunk Cops on the road. There are those that are high that shouldn't be driving. So with the vast number of cars that should not be on the road for one reason or another in the USA, you take your life into your hands every time you get on the road. Again... not saying that we are unique in this aspect... just pointing out we are no different.

How long has the Chevy Volt been out on the market? Oh wait... it's less than a year old. It's still only being sold in limited markets. It's not even overseas in most markets. They just had a TEST VEHICLE catch fire WEEKS after it was in an accident. I'm sorry.... this kind of thing is COMMON outside of the USA? Sure, investigators say they cannot repeat the incident. Sure, it's not the American people who are all upset by this but instead it is GM (the manufacturer) and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Let's recap then. The Manufacturer is slightly concerned, but points out it's no more dangerous than any other car. The Administration set up by the United States Government (and anyone who thinks that the United States Government does what the people of the USA want is ignorant) to monitor Highway traffic and safety wants to avoid putting cars on the road that might spontaneously burst into flames a few weeks after they were in an accident and repaired... because THEY know that Americans will easily accept the risk of reusing a potentially damaged battery, rather than play it safe and replace it. Wait... did you catch that? There is an important example of how Americans assume risk every day. Something gets damaged, and where others would replace it to be safe, Americans are generally willing and ready to continue to use the damaged product. Doesn't matter if it is a hammer, table saw, damaged gas tank in a car... whatever.

You say change the batteries after a collision. You are a hypocrite. You make a statement like that, and try to pass it off as common sense so people won't see it for what it is... playing it safe. The whole reason why the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is concerned is BECAUSE a majority of Americans are more likely to ASSUME THE RISK of continuing to use the battery after a collision. You think this makes the American citizens "nancies"? I say your attitude of being afraid the battery would explode and therefore should require replacement shows fear. Your attitude shows you are unwilling to take Risk.

Oh, and just so it is clear... of course there is a difference between taking a risk and being foolhardy.

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[The Askylist]

I think the problem can be defined very simply as the legal-insurance complex.

.

There used to be (and still is, to an extent) a military-industrial complex, but far more money is generated through the connivance of lawyers and insurance firms (plus the health and safety industry) that could better be used for public services or for product development.

It started in the US, but here in the UK it is catching up, to the point that we now have insurance companies selling the details of accident participants to ambulance chasing legal firms, and claiming that such a practice lowers insurance costs. Add to that the overrepresentation of the legal "profession" in government, and the sharks have it all sewn up.

It's the Broken Window fallacy writ large, and short of a bonfire of legislation, nothing can stop it.

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[BBTaeKwonDo]

No, the Prius uses nickel-metal hydride batteries, not lithium ion.

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[Locutus]

FYI, the Prius battery is covered for 10 years and if you still have your car after that and when it finally does go bad, you can replace it yourself with a rebuilt battery pack for under $1,500 or probably double that if you must have someone else follow simple directions and turn a wrench and remove a few bolts. From what I've seen with our 2001 Prius, maintenance costs are far less than a normal car. We've not even had to change the brake pads yet after 100,000 miles thanks to regenerative braking. Oil changes after 5,000+ miles sill result in golden honey colored oil most likely because the engine can run with less heavy loading because there's a battery/motor to help take loads and the starting is done in a gradual manner.

FYI #2, almost all hybrids use NiMH batteries because they are allowed to by the oil industry. Mobil owns the patent for a few more years and allows NiMH in vehicles not primarily powered by electric power( ie hybrids ). They are not big, not heavy, not expensive and not explosive. Lithium batteries do pack more power density than NiMH but they are expensive and explosive as you mentioned. But Mobile will not let even GM use NiMH batteries in their next generation EV( Volt ). Did you know GM once owned the patent for NiMH and then sold it to Texaco( merged with Mobil shortly after )? Go and watch any of the interviews of GMs Bob Lutz and watch him stay WAY clear of mentioning NiMH batteries and only compare the Li batteries to Pb even though NiMH batteries were used in the EV1 and gave it 125 miles of range.

I agree with the OP though, Americans are nancies and mostly because we're way ignorant of what goes on around us. The specialization techniques which run up costs and dumb down employees feeds this.

LoB

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[sjames]

I think the part that raised eyebrows is that the fire happened in a car that had been sitting for 3 weeks after a crash test. You don't see that sort of thing with gas or diesel cars, so it is worth noting.

It's also worth testing to determine just how much of an accident it takes to cause this. Are we talking back into a pole in the parking lot and three weeks later it burns your house down or is it just in the sort of accidents where you won't be driving it afterward anyway?

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[TheRaven64]

I suspect, after weighing the evidence, that they have in fact become girly-men.

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[TheRaven64]

Perhaps you should try looking in this dictionary.

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[ScentCone]

America often has been a backward "conservative" nation for much of its history. Aside from a few generations at the very beginning of America's modern history, the tolerance for risk has been decreasing rapidly. Without real risk you can't have real gain.

You're confusing things. The risk aversion is coming from the left. It's the Nanny-statists, the entitlement culture, and those that tell every kid that they're just as successful as everyone else for having shown up and remembered to breath ... all of that stuff stunts any sort of risk-taking creative impulse. You want to scold someone? Scold the people who have a vested interest in defining society as requiring nannies: it's the professional nanny-like academic layers, the income-confiscation-ists/re-distributionists, and the central-planning, we-know-best-ists that are insisting that creative risk taking is best avoided unless it's in the form of a minor revisoin to the plot of a teenage vampire movie or a new angle on the professional self esteem boosting industry.

In this area, liberals are the conservatives. They want to be paid to be in charge of the tyrannical embrace of state coddling, and need to enslave the handful of actually creative and productive people in order to fund that whole approach. And, of course, they have finally all but smothered the fire that makes the engine run. And what to they propose? Stamping out any remaining embers (successful businesses are evil!) to make the people with absolutely no personal drive not feel bad about themselves. Nauseating.

And what do the collectivists with executive power do to make this all seem not true? Loan (and, of course, lose) half a billion tax payer dollars to a wrong-headed "green" tech business affiliated with their big political donors, and call it innovation. They're willing to take risks with money earned by the minority of people in the country that actually pay taxes, but they write tax law that punishes people who personally risk the loss of money when they invest in businesses directly, without involving government bureaucracy and cronyism.

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[canadian_right]

We think you are nancies because you did revolt against your government when the patriot act was passed. We think you are nancies because you sue each other over anything and everything. We think you are nancies because you allow you government to do border searches over 100km from the border. We think you are nancies because you allow security theatre at your airports. We think you are nancies because you allow your police to "papers please". We thin you are nancies because you allow the police to stop you taking picture of public buildings. I could go on.

I look at all your republican candidates (except Romney) and think you guys are just plain crazy.

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[Firethorn]

You make some good points, but until relatively recently the depreciation of EV batteries, calculated on a per mile/annual basis exceeded the cost of the electricity used to charge it. IE You spend 5 cents worth of electricity to go a mile, but the battery 'wore down' 10 cents. Meanwhile I wouldn't be surprised if a standard 10 gallon tank used in many small cars cost around $20 for auto manufacturers. Then add $40 of gasoline, total value $60. EV batteries are in the thousands, to the point that the electricity used to charge them is a marginal thing.

I wouldn't wan an EV pack in my bedroom either - they're huge. While I might be able to pick up a full 10 gallon tank, assuming it has good handholds, there's no way I'm going to be able to pick up even the smaller leaf batteries.

As for cost, well, they're about the same at the moment - extra expense up front, cheaper per mile. Or less expense, more expensive per mile.

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[MagusSlurpy]

Your nose can tell you if the battery is damaged, too - it smells the smoke! :p

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[Bill Dog]

Well to be fair, Democrats don't really worship Europeans, nor just for being Europeans. More specifically, American Leftists feel kinship with Europeans for being socialists and for looking down on America('s founding ideals), and they admire them for having so far been more successful at/farther along in moving their societies towards the Left.

Re:Why have Americans become nancies?

[tftp]

Buy a Prius, then ask how much it's going to cost to replace those batteries in a few years. You'll probably pass out from the shock.

You must be a very impressionable fellow if a simple zero could send you into convulsions.

I own a Prius for more than a "few years" and the battery is just like new. It has a warranty for 10 years, IIRC. There are millions of Priuses on the road, including the Generation 1 from 2000, but, amazingly, there is no "battery panic" anywhere, except in minds of people with agenda. Those people don't own the car, but they are willing to debate it with people who do.

volt cells

[pinfall]

This happened with an old laptop battery I had which was pierced after a fall and left in a metal trash bin. Nothing serious resulted but people need to be aware that damaged batteries are always dangerous. The fact it happened ona volt seems irrelevant. Maybe they can release a new car and call it "duravolt" (like duracell batteries except with a volt tag).

Re:volt cells

[drinkypoo]

The batteries need to not fail _invisibly_ during a crash. If the fire was the result of the crash then it failed the crash test.

Re:volt cells

[danomac]

In TFA, it says that there were crashes done to try to replicate the problem. There were procedures to follow after the crash, and it appears that they weren't followed after the original crash test:

In June, GM and NHTSA both crashed a Volt and couldn't replicate the May fire, said Greg Martin, a spokesman for the automaker. GM has safety procedures for handling the Volt and its battery after an accident. Had those been followed, there wouldn't have been a fire, he said in a phone interview.

Even after a severe crash of a gasoline-powered car, it surely would be inspected or something before and after repair. It doesn't sound like that happened after this test.

Any car can catch fire.

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially in an accident. Not sure why the Volt would get singled out. There's all of six of them on the road. Hell, VWs don't even require accidents to burn up.

Re:Any car can catch fire.

[Nidi62]

But a Ford Pinto doesn't catch fire when it's sitting in an empty lot 3 weeks after it gets rearended. That's where the concern is coming from, that the delay between the crash and the fire was almost a month. Which is why they are going to be testing the batteries to see under what conditions damage significant enough to cause a fire can occur. I would assume that under standard inspections and repairs after a collision the battery wold be included. But if it wasn't on the standard checklist, it will be now. That's the point of these tests. Hopefully as a result of this they can find better ways to insulate the battery from shock and protect it from damage.

Re:Any car can catch fire.

[DamonHD]

4 weeks later and entire tank of poisonous and flammable hydrocarbons could leak from a damaged car onto a garage floor or into a drain.

ICE cars are no angels: we've just gotten used to their failure modes.

Rgds

Damon

Re:Any car can catch fire.

[DamonHD]

Are you claiming that there are no dangerous slow failure modes to conventional cars that an unaware driver could be hurt by, like balding tires, or brake fluid leakage or corroding wiring or whatever? Familiarity doesn't make them OK, and EV drivers will learn to look out for new failure modes if they prove common or dangerous.

So, before accusing *me* of being full of fail, maybe try (a) thinking carefully about my underlying point beyond your OMG!!!11!-status-quo-is-the-only-thing-that-could-possibly-work thinking, and (b) stop posting as AC.

Rgds

Damon

Re:Any car can catch fire.

[Jeremi]

But a Ford Pinto doesn't catch fire when it's sitting in an empty lot 3 weeks after it gets rear ended.

If it has sufficient insurance, it might.

Castle

[crmarvin42]

How long before we see a TV show or mystery novelist use an intentional puncturing of a battery to kill someone weeks later?

I give it two years, any other guesses?

Re:Castle

[Nidi62]

Tom Clancy already used a faulty gas tank coating as the impetus to start a trade war that eventually led to a shooting war with Japan and a pilot crashing a 747 into a joint session of Congress. Not much different.

Re:Castle

[ColdWetDog]

How long before we see a TV show or mystery novelist use an intentional puncturing of a battery to kill someone weeks later?

OTOH, if EV's really take over, then Micheal Bay is toast. Waiting 3 weeks after a collision for the big kaboom is going to wreck havoc on what little plot line his movies have.

Re:days or weeks? or seconds??

[Pi1grim]

And fuel fumes case an explosion if an open flame or an electrical sparc is present. What's your point?

I was always skeptical...

[bogaboga]

I was always skeptical of the Chevy Volt, not because of its technology per se, but because of the "executor". In this case, engineers at Chevy.

After living in a household that owned Chevys for decades, and seeing how poor workmanship was an almost guaranteed feature in all those vehicles, the Chevy left a bad mark on my mind.

Even simple stuff like seats were poorly done. The cars over heated in the summer, and many of them would just lose power when you needed it most.

  Needless to say, I do not think I will ever own one even if given to me as a gift.

Re:I was always skeptical...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd drop Ford from that list for most car models. They really turned around their quality in a way that I just can't believe. They feel and drive like a luxury car and my family mechanic says he never sees them except for scheduled maintenance (or something caused by no scheduled maintenance... change your oil people!).

Japan has its share of trash manufacturers on the order of crappiness similar to Chrysler. Mitsubishi and Suzuki are not something you would really want to buy if you are concerned about reliability, and Nissan is questionable.

Re:Green == Danger

[cvtan]

Just waiting to see how long it would take to blame the president for a lithium battery fire. Hmmm, not long at all!

* My brothers '72 Capri caught fire in the garage and nearly burned our house down.

* Windmills only kill condors left, but not right.

* Radar ground clutter is well known.

* Using heater uses energy of course. Can't blame Obama for laws of physics being inconvenient sometimes.

* I tend to agree with you on the silliness of ethanol.

Private market is no paragon of virtue. Recall AIG?, Enron? BP oil spill? Bhopal chemical leak? etc. etc.?

Re:mass-volume production + innovation is too hard

[khallow]

innovation is virtually impossible for mass-production companies to "slot in" to the "efficiency engine". they literally can't do it. there are also legal issues that need to be taken into account, such as a guaranteed 7-year-supply of parts *after* the vehicle's *last* mass-production run is finished.

The legal requirement for supplying parts can be evaded by only leasing the vehicles. Numerous mass-production businesses have done that for prototypes such as the EV1 (look over this Wikipedia list of modern electric vehicles and see the number of "lease only" vehicles, usually in the US, on the list).

Steel?

[damn_registrars]

If a lithium battery is pierced by steel

Are you saying we are using steel in cars again? I thought with the exception of the drivetrain, they were pretty well all plastic today.

Re:redesign needed - http://lkcl.net/ev

[DamonHD]

My cousin's ex-eyebrows are interested in your views on the safety of gasoline and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Rgds

Damon

Re:let's forbid EV Batteries

[muon-catalyzed]

because a tank full of liquid, flammable and explosive fuel is so much safer.
/s

Re:battery technology

[GameboyRMH]

Just wondering, why does your 3D model's bodywork look like it was shaped with a sledgehammer?

Also, a few cars you might want to check out:

http://i.mitsubishicars.com/miev/features/compare

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/10/meet-the-one-modular-ev-created-by-fifty-companies/

You've almost certainly seen this one:

http://gordonmurraydesign.com/press-T27-unveiled.php

Re:let's forbid EV Batteries

[Luckyo]

Hilariously, that's what caused the fire. The fuel tank is DRAINED after collision. Apparently people doing the test didn't drain the battery, as the manual told them to in addition to draining the fuel tank.

Re:battery technology

[GameboyRMH]

Hey also I was watching the vid where you wind-tunnel test the cardboard model and I had some ideas:

First I noticed you had a low-pressure area forming behind the back glass. You should consider installing a "scoop" as seen on the leading edge of the Lancia Stratos' rear window and many other rally cars:

http://www.zercustoms.com/news/images/Lancia/2011-Lancia-Stratos-8.jpg

They generate a bit of lift but reduce drag - and in many cases the lift that's killed by filling the low-pressure area behind them is less than the device itself creates, so you get net downforce.

For powertrains, I guess you know that a typical FWD ICE+transaxle isn't going to fit anywhere in that car. You could probably squeeze in a FWD transaxle with an electric motor into the front, in the back it looks like you have even less forward and vertical space so you're pretty much restricted to electric motors back there. I guess a front engine/RWD layout is out of the question due to the drivetrain inefficiency and weight. Another option you might want to consider is a sportbike engine and gearbox and either a chain-driven axle (like go-karts use - downside is the fragility and amount of maintenance required) or a custom diff setup. You could surely fit that into the front and possibly even in the back.

Next, about cooling, I assume you're going to have a '30s car style radiator grille opening in the front and some hood vents ahead of the doors and/or windscreen? Is the German electric motor you were talking about liquid-cooled by any chance?

GM "protocols following the crash" would not help

[Animats]

And here they are, from the 2-hour training session for first responders to Chevy Volt accidents. It's necessary to open the trunk and cut 12V cables at two points with heavy wire cutters. The cut points are marked with yellow tape printed with a firefighter hat and wire cutters. Here is GM's official instruction sheet for this. There's also a battery disconnect switch inside the center console of the vehicle, where a big plug is turned and removed. That's the normal procedure for disconnecting power during service.

So that's the documented "protocol following the crash". That's what GM says to do, and what a first responder or a tow company would have done if they did everything right. It would have had little effect if a battery had an internal short.

The Prius, Civic, and Ford Escape each have completely different battery disconnection procedures. The first responder community is not happy about this. They want a standardized, easy to get at way to quickly disconnect the high voltage battery in an emergency.

Re:GM "protocols following the crash" would not he

[schwaang]

No, you've confused the instructions for first responders with the instructions for the dealerships doing post-crash repairs.
Per a post elsewhere:

The Volt service manual documents what should be done to inspect the high voltage systems following a collision in Volume 2, section 11, page 332. After a collision as severe as in the side-impact crash test, the battery pack should be removed from the vehicle.

Still it's a good thing NHTSA is looking into this (while not picking solely on GM). After the Toyota unintended acceleration issue the US auto safety regulators looked bad because they appeared to have not paid attention to the early warning signs, and that ended up being bad for the regulator, the regulatee, and the consumers. Even if this turns out to be a total non-problem, it will help debunk fear-mongering against EV technology. IMHO.

Re:let's forbid EV Batteries

[thegarbz]

Lets face it if you rode up to the regulators today on your horse and said: "I have a new idea for a product. It will be a giant metal shell on wheels. People will sit in it and move at 60km/h in opposite directions on a narrow road only a meter appart. The metal shell will become the subject of about half of your efforts to control how people use it. Best of all it runs on a highly volatile mixture of hydrocarbons."

There's no way a car could be invented today.

I bought a Volt today, and I love it.

[DCFusor]

While it might make me certifiable, I actually traded in a 2010 Camaro SS for it on top. That car was too brutally quick for me - back when I raced, I won quite a few with cars far slower, and that was a last blast for me - I don't have the reflexes for 200 mph anymore which the Camaro would do, easy.

I live off the grid, have plenty of spare power from my PV panels, which I plan to use to keep the thing charged. I don't have to commute (retired) anyway, except to the beer/munchie store. I don't *have* to drive more than once a week or so, and one charge will get me to town and back fine.

I also have a 2011 Cruze, and it's easy to see why they are the #1 selling car these days - the thing rocks, and I love it. Granted GM (and other american companies) turned out shit for a few years. I'd just say that it's not universally true now, though I'd not get a Ford (software by MS, scary) or a Chrysler, who still use hot glue to hold their cars together, cheap crap (except for the price).. Bob Lutz really turned GM around. For many years I just bought GM commuter cars used (and real cheap due to people thinking they must be worn out after 100k), with 100k miles on them - no maintenance past changing oil had been done, and I drove them another 20k miles the same way, till I got bored and got another GM - no issues whatsoever - the bashing is just out of place, you euro-trash jerks. Go back to worshiping apple or something, and get off my lawn. GM is BACK.

Re:let's forbid EV Batteries

[thegarbz]

That arguement falls down for two reasons.

a) if something like this didn't exist our world would likely be as it was during the time it was invented, and we would likely have thought "What is the point of that? I have a horse!"

b) You're ignoring my point that we have become an insanely litigious society. It's not a necessity that will or won't allow us to move forward, its the fear of getting sued the first time something like this causes a death.

The only thing that saves the car is entrenchment. Take a look at typical industry today while you're at it. Why is it today we say nuclear power is too expensive whereas in the 60s it was seen as a way to finally make cheap power? Our society has changed for the risk averse where these days people are much more concerned about building an intellectual property portfolio than build equipment.