First 16-Core Opteron Chips Arrive From AMD

angry tapir writes "After a brief delay and more than a year of chatter, Advanced Micro Devices has announced the availability of its first 16-core Opteron server chips, which pack the largest number of cores available on x86 chips today. The new Opteron 6200 chips, code-named Interlagos, are 25 per cent to 30 per cent faster than their predecessors, the 12-core Opteron 6100 chips, according to AMD."

Comments

Compared to Intel?

[Ed Avis]

So... how do these compare to the new Sandy Bridge chips Intel announced on the same day? There must be some overlap of the target market - whether to buy a quad-socket Intel server or dual-socket AMD one, for example.

Re:Compared to Intel?

[Surt]

This would compete with the Xeon-E chips that aren't out yet. But in terms of performance about 75%, so this is the equivalent of a 12-core intel chip.

Re:Compared to Intel?

[0123456]

Given that an 8-core Bulldozer already needs its own power station to operate, I can't imagine Intel could have a worse TDP than a 16-core.

Re:Compared to Intel?

[Talderas]

The idle heat would be sufficient, no? I don't see why you would need to open some windows just to ramp up the temperature unless you're using this thing to few heat for a sauna.

Re:Compared to Intel?

[the linux geek]

Intel's server chips are 8- and 10-core, and outperform Opterons by a considerable margin.

Re:Compared to Intel?

[Kjella]

Even the fastest Sandy Bridge-E draws less power than a Bulldozer even at much higher performance. It also costs 3-4 times as much, so performance/$ is quite shitty (hey, it's an extreme $999 proc) but you the winner in performance is clear. But thanks for trolling, come again.

Re:Compared to Intel?

[beelsebob]

Put simply, the AMD ones are slower than the intel ones by about 2 fold per core. This isn't because AMD sucked at design, so much as their marketing department sucked at telling the truth. In reality, we're looking at 8 core AMD CPUs with 2 integer units per core - i.e. no more 16 core than intel's are 16 core chips because of hyperthreading.

Once that's ironed out, the AMD chips turn out to have rather good performance if you want lots of integer work done, and the Intel chips to have rather good performance if you want anything else done.

Re:Compared to Intel?

[beelsebob]

What's the Xeon E5-2650L, 2650, 2660, 2665, 2670, 2680, 2690 and 2687W then?

Hint: they're all 8 core SNB-E chips. Second hint - AMD's 16 "core" CPUs don't have 16 cores – they have 16 integer units. They only have 8 instruction fetch units, 8 decode units, 8 L2 caches, etc. That is, they're 8 core CPUs with strong integer support. SNB-E's particular strength is floating point, but it tends to beat the opterons at pretty much anything that isn't heavily integer biased.

Re:Compared to Intel?

[Surt]

Slight correction, on threaded workloads, we'd be talking about a 6-core chip, intel runs 2 threads per core.

Re:Compared to Intel?

[unity100]

is that why there have been 3 supercomputer orders in the last 3 weeks with amd's bulldozer opterons ?

Re:Compared to Intel?

[beelsebob]

Really? Given that an 8 "core" bulldozer FX-8150 gets beaten by a 4 core i5 2500, you would reasonably expect that this 16 "core" bulldozer would get beaten by an 8 core sandy bridge chip with no hyperthreading at roughly the same clock speed. A little bit of imagination might convince you that a 6 core with hyprethreading might perform similarly too.

AMD – 16 "core" bulldozer – $1000
Intel – 6 core + HT Xeon E5-1650 at much higher clock – $583.
Alternatively, if you want to be able to stick the intel chips in NUMA
Intel – 6 core + HT Xeon E5-2640 at the same clock as the AMD chip – $884, but with only 95W power consumption.

Final alternative:
Intel –4 core (with no HT) Xeon E5-2609 at roughly the same clock –$294, stick two of them in, and there you are.

Re:Compared to Intel?

[Vancorps]

Which would be what? I sounds to me like databases and webservers benefit greatly from the AMD approach. Alternatives such as render farms use GPUs, so what strength is Intel actually offering?

Re:Compared to Intel?

[beelsebob]

Not really, no –databases and web servers don't spend their time doing parallel integer work, they spend their time doing logic work. Sandy Bridge kicks the snot out of it there.

Re:Compared to Intel?

[gilboad]

While I do agree that AMD is *well* behind Intel's latest and greatest in the 1P / desktop world, I fail to see how you could make such bold statement, unless you have had the chance to compare and AMD 4S machine to Intel 4S machine (say, Opteron 62xx based HP DL585G7 vs. Xeon 75xx/E7 based HP DL580G7).

In my experience (and I venture and guess that is just as good as yours, if not better) the picture is far from being black-and-white and greatly (!!!) depends on the application that is being tested. The pictures becomes even more complex, once you factor in the Xeon E7 excessive price. ... So I ask again, have you had any experience in benchmarking the Opteron 6200 or are you simply making things up as you go along?

- Gilboa

Re:Compared to Intel?

[sneakyimp]

"Honey, it's kinda cold. Can you fire up Linpack on the server?"

Re:Compared to Intel?

[hairyfeet]

Oh I have NO problem with FOSS benchmarks, its one of the few places where you can be sure to get a rigging free test. Not real big on the A-Series though, I find that the Deneb and Thuban chips are a better deal ATM and in many tests Deneb and Thuban stomp Bulldozer. it looks like Bulldozer is gonna be another Phenom I, where it took them a generation to get the bugs out and crank up the clocks like they did with Phenom II.

But I'd say the E series is another story altogether. Its priced the same as Atom but frankly stomps it and gets scores usually above Atom+ION which is a more expensive option. its great for netbooks and all in ones, I've even built a couple of HTPCs with it and it works great in that role, quiet as a churchmouse while having no trouble with 1080p. I liked what I saw enough i put my own money where my mouth was and sold my athlon II Wind for a EEE with an E-350 and i just love the thing. its light, gets great battery life, never gets hot, and just about every video format under the sun is accelerated with DXVA.

So I say stay away from the new socket for now, go with a Deneb or Thuban and by the time that is long in the tooth and you are ready to upgrade the chips after Piledriver will be out and they'll have any performance problems licked. Again I intend to put my money where my mouth is and after the holidays upgrade from Deneb quad to thuban. Do I need it? Not really but I WANTS IT precious, I WANTS IT!

Bulldozer Cores are not that Great

[TheTyrannyOfForcedRe]

The "cores" in Bulldozer are not your typical first-class x86 core. Bulldozer "cores" are worth 2/3 of a modern x86 core. The 6200 is more like a 10 core. Add to that the crappy IPC and I'm not impressed.

I was excited about Bulldozer before it was released. It's not often that CPU makers take chances on radical new architectures. Too bad this one turned out to be a huge pile of fail.

Re:Bulldozer Cores are not that Great

[Theovon]

Your description in inaccurate, but that's not surprising since most slashdot readers don't know much about CPU architecture.

Bulldozers are essentially full-fledged cores, where the two cores in each module are mostly independent. There are two completely independent integer pipelines, so people seem to want to harp on the fact that the FPU is "shared". It's really a single split FPU, where each half can execute independent instructions, as long as the data width is 128 bits or less. Only when it is executing 256-bit AVX instructions is there any competition for resources. This is a very sensible design decision, since you don't find enough AVX software right now to justify completely dedicated AVX logic. (Plus, IIRC sandy bridge's FPU is only 128 bits wide and issues AVX instructions in two cycles, so what's the difference?) Moreover, even with AVX-heavy workloads, most software won't issue AVX instructions every cycle, and two AVX-heavy tasks on the same module won't really run into much contention. Assuming my memory of Sandy Bridge's FPU is correct, then Bulldozer has the advantage of having lower latency within the FPU on isolated AVX instructions.

The PROBLEM with Bulldozer is that they just have not done some of the really aggressive and costly things that Intel has done in their design. Bulldozer is still a 3-issue design. While going to 4-issue doesn't help that much that often, it still gives Sandy Bridge a slight edge. But where SB REALLY gets its advantage is the huge instruction window. Intel found clever ways to shrink the logic for various components so that they could make room for a much larger physical register file and reorder buffer. As a result, SB can have many more decoded instructions in flight, which exposes more instruction-level parallelism and, critically, absorbs more memory access latency.

A Sun engineer (discussing Rock, among other things) once described modern CPU execution as a race between last-level cache misses. When you have a miss on your L3 cache, it can cost hundreds of cycles, upwards of 1000. During that miss, the CPU fills up its reservation station with other instructions and then stalls, waiting on something to retire. This won't happen for a long time. Because of the disparity in speed (and latency) between compute and memory access, this is typically the most significant bottleneck. By enlarging the instruction window, SB can achieve much higher throughput, and it shows in the benchmarks.

This is Bulldozer's Achilles' heel. I know there are a few benchmarks where Bulldozer is faster than SB, but they're not typical workloads with typical memory footprints. Anyhow, so if you're going to rag on Bulldozer, rag on it for the right reasons. Bulldozer's "shared" FPU is a red herring.

Re:Bulldozer Cores are not that Great

[ericloewe]

Bulldozer was very poorly handled from the beginning. What really suprises me is that they tried the NetBurst approach: when all else fails, go for clocks. Unfortunately, ARM seems to be focusing on a similar strategy (more cores, higher clocks, less focus on IPC)... Anyways, I don't buy their "poorly optimized" story. They knew all about it and could've waited - surely they realized at the early stages of development that OSes aren't optimikzed for this yet. They could've delayed Bulldozer and pushed out yet another incremental upgrade to the Phenoms - the die shrink alone would probably yield better results than those achieved by Bulldozer. Meanwhile Intel is able to get away with what is essentially 50% more performance in multi-threaded applications, 0% more in single-threaded ones (save minor influences from the memory subsystem and cache, which surprisingly have a HIGHER latency than SB). All this for around 100% more cash, plus added costs for "high-end" motherboards (still lacking native USB 3.0 from the chipset, along with only two native SATA 6.0Gb/s ports), quad-channel memory and a cooler.

Re:Bulldozer Cores are not that Great

[Artraze]

The OP right, and seems to understand the issues far better than you. It isn't that the FPU is shared, it that nearly _everything_ is shared: Instruction cache, fetch and decode, FPU, L2 data cache. The only things that aren't shared are L1 data and integer operations (scheduler and ALU).

Instruction issuing and and cache misses are big performance areas, but these are precisely the resources the cores share! You're running two threads off (with the exception of L1 data) the same caches and instruction fetches. So, in reality, the second core in bulldozer is much more like ultra-hyperthreading than it is a second core. I think the fact that they're even listed as cores is a marketing strategy that has backfired pretty hard.

P.S. L3 cache has proven to be quite useless in many workloads... It helps a bit in servers, IIRC, but that's about it. So it's more a race to L2 cache, which, again, is a shared resource. AMD, in fact, has indicated that it may drop the L3 from desktop parts.

Re:Only 16?

[ackthpt]

Pfft, how much harder can it be to design one with 32 :)

Design? Easy.

Manufacture? Tricky.

Make work? Trickier.

To read about? Interesting.

Wish List

[Nom du Keyboard]

I so much want some real competition for Intel. Competition that doesn't artificially limit clock speeds and fuse off perfectly good working features in order to market a dozen overlapping and conflicting SKUs at a dozen different price points. And working drivers, current standards (DirectX 11 and OpenCL for starters), and USB-3 that doesn't require a $50 cable between every device would be nice.

sandy bridge ep 95W

[Chirs]

There will be server versions as well...I've seen specs (publicly available) for an 8-core (16-thread) sandy bridge EP with a 95W TDP. I suspect it's clocked a bit lower and maybe binned for efficiency.

Re:really 16 core?

[Zan Lynx]

Maybe...

It'll be interesting. Most server applications are integer-only and never touch the floating point units. That should mean that Bulldozer designs work close to the full core count in contrast to the poor benchmarking results it puts out in Photoshop filters and video encode.

Re:Poor performance

[nomel]

This isn't the point. You get 16 cores (slowish compared to top of the line, they may be) that will fit in a single socket on a single motherboard, with a single power supply. This is a *huge* cost saving for machines that it makes sense to use them in...servers, where single core performance is relatively stupid to consider.

Re:how do they compare ?

[PIBM]

1: You can buy your new sandy bridge from newegg or such right now, while those new bulldozers are nowhere to be found.
2: Overclocking any chip is bound to require a lot more power than the TDP no matter which one you are using.
3: Dozer's core, as you said, feel like they are dozing on the job..

Re:really 16 core?

[the linux geek]

They both have the same issues, including that each module (two 4-issue cores) has a single 4-instruction decoder in front of it. Cache latency is also likely to be similar if not the same.

Re:Poor performance

[the linux geek]

Servers need single-thread too; think stuff like big database writes, joins, ERP, and CRM. Think outside the embarrassingly-parallel web-serving box.

If multithreaded performance was all that matters, the Sun Niagara chips would have done a lot better than they did.

yes

[unity100]

that must be why 3 supercomputers with dozer opterons have been ordered in the past 3 weeks.

Re:Only 16?

[beelsebob]

No, 8 integer cores per chip, but 4 actual real cores. For a total of 8 cores across 2 chips.

Re:Only 16?

[kvvbassboy]

Pic related: amd vs intel decision making.

Re:Poor performance

[DarkOx]

Umm, Joins can be done in parallel, in lots and lots of cases. ERP and CRP are applications that ought to see big improvements form more cores, if you have more than a few users anyway. It also simplifies things, you don't have to figure out how to architect the thing to run across 10 hosts anymore, good multi-core systems deliver there performance these apps need if you can get the disk IO solved. A good SAN with mutlipath support and multiple HBAs can get there.

Niagara failed because each individual core was too slow, a comparable cost Intel CPU could do in serial with one core two jobs, in less time than Niagara could do one job with on core. The question is here for most paralleled work loads like a database where all cores will be used are AMDs 16 core chips at least 62% the speed of Intel's 10 core chips on core vs. core basis? If true other things being equal for *some* work loads these Opterons will be better.

 

Re:fool.

[beelsebob]

The problem is, while this is true, bulldozer also suffers from being a fairly crappy arch design compared to sandy bridge. The result is that AMD's 8 "core" bulldozer is only roughly as fast as intel's 4 core i5 without hyperthreading. Extrapolate this to bolting two 8 "core" bulldozers together and you get to... well, that would only be about as fast as an 8 core sandy bridge with no hyperthreading, or a 6 core with hyperthreading. Given that Intel is selling 6 core E5 Xeons with hyperthreading for less than the $1000 AMD is asking for this, that really isn't boding well is it. This of course is then forgetting that this Bulldozer is very underclocked to keep power consumption down. This really doesn't look promising for AMD.

Re:Intel vs AMD's philosophy as of late

[level_headed_midwest]

Eh, how about this:

Intel: I know, let's try to see just how many features/cores/cache we can fuse off in our dies and different socket combinations to try to make *puts pinky finger to mouth* one MILLION SKUs! Oh, and while we're at it, let's add a FOURTH memory channel, because more is better! Sure, we could get all the bandwidth we need with two DDR3-1866 or -2133 channels and that you really only get about three channels' worth of bandwidth because we have to clock the IMC down to DDR3-1333 with two modules per channel- but we still have FOUR channels! Oh, and we forgot, it's the start of a new quarter so we need to release a new socket. Can't let those socket suppliers get lazy making last quarter's socket design. What, you guys want us to release Sandy Bridge-based Xeon MPs because MP platforms actually need that much bandwidth and core count? We just released the Westmere-based ones a few months ago! Don'tcha know that Xeon MPs run two years behind everything else? Geez, what did you do, wake up yesterday? Next you'll want us to stop crippling our chips, stop using a new socket every other month or something ridiculous like that. Where do you guys get those ideas?

AMD: Based on market analysis, most server applications use primarily integer code and require a lot of bandwidth, memory capacity, and a high core count. We don't have over a hundred billion dollars in market cap to fund several parallel R&D teams to design a specific CPU for every edge use case, so we will design a CPU that is highly modular, has good integer performance (because that's what our research indicated most server apps are), and has a lot of cores. Experience with Intel's HyperThreading is less than stellar with regards to predictable performance, so we will use our CMT approach that leads to better integer performance than HyperThreading but doesn't increase the die size by a huge amount, since we can't afford to make 400-600 mm^2 dies like Intel does to have a lot of physical cores. Oh, and we'll continue to use the existing server platforms out there so our customers can drop-in upgrade and we'll also not change any feature sets in the SKU stack other than the clock speed and number of enabled modules and their associated caches. We do apologize for being "late" with these parts since we usually release server and client at about the same time...

When are multiple cores going to help me?

[craftycoder]

I just got a fancy 8 core T7500 Dell workstation and only one of my compilers actually takes advantage of the multiple cores when it is compiling. As a result this expensive desktop is only 15% faster in terms of time to compile than the 4 year old PC it replaced (the new PC has twice the ram as the old though which may account for some of that speed increase). I am seriously unimpressed with all these cores. Maybe they are useful for something, but I've not found anything that I do that shows significant improvement. Putting my development projects on a SSD did much more for my work flow performance than this fancy new computer, that is for certain.

Re:When are multiple cores going to help me?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're doing it wrong.

make -j8

Re:When are multiple cores going to help me?

[fyngyrz]

Try doing DSLR image editing with Lightroom or Aperture. Those cores make one hell of a difference.

Re:When are multiple cores going to help me?

[JohnnyBGod]

And if it's too much for one machine, use distcc.

Re:When are multiple cores going to help me?

[friedmud]

What do you mean by "only one of my compilers actually takes advantage of the multiple cores when it is compiling"?

Are you on Windows? Because any compiling done in linux with a "make" based (or similar) build system can use as many cores as you can throw in a machine (regardless of the actual compiler it's running). It should be the same in Windows...

Don't look to your compiler to be multithreaded... look at the build system (i.e. in Visual Studio there should be an option somewhere to tell it how many processors to use while compiling). For make you just do "make -j8" to use 8 "jobs" total for compiling (i.e. 8 instances of the compiler will be running).

Here is a test for one of my software projects doing "make -j#" where # is 1,4,8,12,16,24:

1 : 15m9.614s
4 : 3m57.947s
8 : 2m6.354s
12 : 1m33.426s
16 : 1m25.559s
24 : 1m17.345s

That is on my dual 6-core hyperthreaded Mac workstation (so it had 12 "real" cores and 12 "hyperthreads"). You can see that hyperthreads definitely aren't as good as real cores... but do provide some speedup. That said, I thank God every time I compile (which is all day long) for the cores he has bestowed upon me...

Good to hear that you are already on SSD... because parallel compiling does need speedy disk to keep the processors humming. The timings above are for two 256GB SSD's in RAID0.

Re:Only 16?

[afidel]

No, there are 16 integer pipelines with one scheduler and 4 logic units each, 16 128bit floating point units that can also be combined into 8 256bit units, and 8 fetch/decode units. This is not a MCU, it's one chip with the above mentioned components. Whether it's 16 cores or 8 or 4 modules is kind of academic unless you are trying to optimize a scheduler for it in which case the label's still don't matter, only the actual implementation and achievable performance matter.

Re:Only 16?

[beelsebob]

The basic point is that it has a total of 8 instruction fetch units, it has a total of 8 instruction decode units that they feed, and it has a total of 8 chunks of L2 cache. The fact that each of these 8 cores has 2 integer units on it is neither here nor there –hell, for years cores have had several floating point units on them, it didn't make them more than one core. Not only that, but this CPU behaves badly when the scheduler treats it as 16 cores instead of 8. The bottom line is that this chip in every single way behaves like an 8 core CPU, more so, it's slower than intel's 8 core CPUs at a similar clock even with hyper threading disabled.

Re:Only 16?

[Vancorps]

What are you basing this on? As someone that runs both database and web servers using both AMD and Intel I find your conclusions to be completely counter to my experience and to the experience of almost everyone I know that does virtualized infrastructure.

I ran into a number of problems when I first tried to deploy them because SQL 2005 wouldn't install on it. SQL 2008 runs just great with 24 cores as they were dual processor 12 core servers. I have no reason to think the 16 cores variants would be much different.

Re:how do they compare ?

[unity100]

and many, many, moooreeee

-mainconcept http://www.lostcircuits.com/mambo//i...&limitstart=17
-mediashow http://www.guru3d.com/article/amd-fx...ssor-review/14
-h.264 http://www.guru3d.com/article/amd-fx...ssor-review/14
-vp8 http://www.guru3d.com/article/amd-fx...ssor-review/17
-sha1 http://www.guru3d.com/article/amd-fx...ssor-review/17
-photoshop cs5 http://www.lostcircuits.com/mambo//i...&limitstart=14
-photoshop cs5 http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...x,3043-15.html
-winrar, faster than 2600k http://www.techspot.com/review/452-a...pus/page7.html
-winrar, improves over x6 http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...x,3043-16.html
-7-zip better than 2600k here: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4955/41698.png http://www.anandtech.com/show/4955/t...x8150-tested/7
-7-zip same perf as 2600k http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...x,3043-16.html
-POV-ray, faster than 2600k http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1741/10/
-POV-ray http://www.nordichardware.se/test-la...art=15#content
-x264(2nd pass AVX enabled) http://www.anandtech.com/show/4955/t...x8150-tested/7
-x264 (2nd pass, better overall than 2600k) http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=2125&pageID=11108
-x264 (2nd pass +.3 than SB2600k) http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1741/7/
-handbrake; http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1741/9/
-truecrypt; http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=2125&pageID=11111
-solidworks; faster than 2600k http://www.techspot.com/review/452-a...pus/page7.html
-abbyy filereader http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...x,3043-16.html
-C-Ray, as fast as $1k i7-990X, http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/v.../c-rayir38.png

Crippling chips

[Quila]

It's common, live with it. Every Cell processor in a PS3 comes with eight cell processing units, with one disabled. That way they can set the standard for seven and use most of the chips that come off the line.

Even AMD had a problem with too-good yield about ten years ago, so they restricted the clock and sold "crippled" low-end chips that were technically rated to run at much higher speeds.

Re:Intel vs AMD's philosophy as of late

[Anarke_Incarnate]

AMD already had the on die memory controller. Their answer to intel's Hyperthreading was real cores. The QPI bus that intel uses is very similar to the one AMD pioneered with Hypertransport. Let's not forget that AMD64 (oh, did you want me to call it EM64T or x86_64?) was a product of AMD's engineering effort rather than forcing people toward the EPIC architecture which seems to be niche based.

Re:Only 16?

[certain death]

It matters to virtualization. Higher density equates to more systems on a single server, which equates to less power for the same number of servers.