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Secret BBC Documents Reveal Flimsy Case For DRM

mouthbeef writes "The Guardian just published my investigative story on the BBC and Ofcom's abuse of secrecy laws to hide the reasons for granting permission for DRM on UK public broadcasts. The UK public overwhelmingly rejected the proposal, but Ofcom approved it anyway, saying they were convinced by secret BBC arguments that couldn't be published due to 'commercial sensitivity.' As the article shows, the material was neither sensitive nor convincing — a fact that Ofcom and the BBC tried to hide from the public."

37 of 199 comments (clear)

  1. Surprise surprise by GameboyRMH · · Score: 5, Funny

    Arguments for inherently impossible protection system that consumers hate flawed, news at 11.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    1. Re:Surprise surprise by GameboyRMH · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The other side's arguments consist of "WAAAAH I hate the nature of computers, make them work different so that *I* will be the master of other people's computers and those people will be forced to pay whenever any content my company has a perpetual copyright on is viewed with one, WAAAH!"

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    2. Re:Surprise surprise by Fned · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are dork because you're missing the other side's arguments completely.

      He's not missing them, they're just 100% invalid.

      DRM is fundamentally broken, mathematically. It seeks to grant and deny access to the same party simultaneously.

    3. Re:Surprise surprise by Raenex · · Score: 2

      Surprise, surprise, a first post that responds to the title only, and not even the summary. The story isn't that DRM is flawed, the real story here is that secrecy laws were evoked to redact commentary from the BBC. Concluding paragraph from the article:

      Welcome to DRM Britain. Our BBC will give privileges to American TV companies that the US government won't give them, and our "independent" regulator won't even tell us why.

    4. Re:Surprise surprise by Moryath · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Britain does this... the US government does this... the fundamental problem would seem to be politicians + businesses + money = corruption, as a definitive formula, no?

    5. Re:Surprise surprise by CastrTroy · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's only broken if you assume general purpose device like a PC. I forsee that once computers get fast enough, small enough, and have little enough heat to dissipate that eventually we will have the components encased in epoxy, with most of the important internals on a single chip, placed in a random place on a board (chips are placed in the same spot during manufacturing, edges are cut differently so they exist in a different physical position in the end product). There will be no media slot and possibly no ports of any kind for hooking up peripherals. It won't have general access to the internet, and will only be able to visit approved services, where all code is signed and encrypted so as not to allow unsigned code to run. If you look at the reason most DRM was cracked, it was because they existed on a run-of-the-mill computer, where the key was stored in memory. Or you have a console, where you can add on a mod chip, or edit the save game files to create a buffer overflow error. If you remove the ability of the user to interact with the machine at that level, then you go a very long way towards most people not bothering to break the DRM. It's only a matter of time before some $25 machine becomes all you need, and the only way, to play your media content, but that $25 machine is encased in epoxy and has no user accessible data of any kind. It just has HDMI out, and an Ethernet port. The software inside will only connect and run certified software.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    6. Re:Surprise surprise by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Seriously, read beyond the title and post something that isn't just a childlike and generic screed against DRM. The big issue here is in how a state broadcaster and a regulator conspired to very much go against the interests of the public. In that regard it certainly is a "news at 11" situation for the more cynical ones among us.

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    7. Re:Surprise surprise by GameboyRMH · · Score: 3, Informative

      You're technically correct (the best kind of correct!) but getting it to work 99% of the time is still a ways off and will require some big technological breakthroughs. Even today's best (in terms of cracking difficulty) DRM schemes, HDCP and TPM-enabled DRM, are still crackable with hardhacks - there are even home HDCP circumvention kits, all you have to do is tap into some wires running out of a TV's HDCP decoder (or you could just get an HDCP stripper box and hope the key doesn't get blacklisted). TPM-enabled DRM is the toughest as it places the decryption keys in a tamper-proofed piece of hardware, but even this has been broken using some fancy equipment.

      Let's even say, for the sake of argument, that you can use quantum encryption tech to have the data stream encrypted until it reaches the pixels and speakers themselves. A sufficiently sharp camera with some software pointed at the screen could effectively make a digital rip via light, and then you could tie into the speaker cone leads (sorry, no way to do the same for speakers without super-advanced nanotech) and get a good analog audio rip. You'd have a very good rip using the analog hole, which will always exist until there are surveillance cameras in our homes or non-DRM'ed files are impossible to open.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    8. Re:Surprise surprise by CmdrPony · · Score: 2

      That's not the point though. Companies don't care that much if it's 100% unhackable as long as it protects the content long enough (so that most sales are done) or that it hinders mass copying, as with this case. Whatever you described in your post seems like a huge effort, ever for me (and I'm a geek). It's completely out of reach from masses. That is the point.

      Also, there are uncrackable DRM's, but with games. There are still titles that haven't been cracked, or have been cracked improperly which leads frustration for the guy who pirated it. It can make him buy it. With games the companies have also figured out that they can give out the game for free and charge for gameplay features or items, ie. free2play. Lots of gamers hate it, but well, they asked for change. Most of multiplayer games and MMO's are also either unplayable or severaly limited, like WoW (and don't say there are private servers, because they seriously suck compared to real ones and the experience is completely different).

    9. Re:Surprise surprise by The+Askylist · · Score: 2
      The BBC is not state funded - it is funded by a license fee which is enforceable by law (if you don't pay, they try to fine you £1000).

      .

      And while it is required to be politically neutral, it is in fact a nest of Bolsheviks and AGW advocates, and is consistently biased towards the Left.

      I only watch it for the odd bit of football and motor sport nowadays - the rest of the coverage (including supposed 'science' programming) is just not worth the effort.

      The DRM thing was likely under instruction from Lords Mandelson and Triesmann, who in turn bark to the tune of His Master's Voice.

    10. Re:Surprise surprise by desdinova+216 · · Score: 2

      And while it is required to be politically neutral, it is in fact a nest of Bolsheviks and AGW advocates, and is consistently biased towards the Left.

      if I didn't know better I'd think that was the claims of a US talk radio listener about US public broadcasting

    11. Re:Surprise surprise by dryeo · · Score: 2

      You're thinking of the totalitarians who took over the Bolsheviks, generally by murder, and continued the Russian tradition of totalitarian rule.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  2. Re:What did you expect? by GameboyRMH · · Score: 4, Interesting
    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  3. Entrenched Interests by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Entrenched Interests are going to use every means, including illegal ones, to maintain and extend their hold over content that they profit from. When America was established one of the major things that they overthrew (so major that is is part of the original Constitution) was the concept of Forever Copyrights -- and they were better off for it. Those Entrenched Interests never went away however, and they try to chip away at those rights at every opportunity. We are very close to the point, if not past it, where copyright infringement becomes civil disobedience -- if not a civil duty.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    1. Re:Entrenched Interests by Enderandrew · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Content owners do have a right to make money from their content.

      But the argument for DRM is a poor one. It punishes paying customers while not stopping piracy. Even worse, content owners/providers have to pay money to license DRM technology. It is a lose-lose scenario.

      The CEO of Warner Brothers at the time predicted iTunes would fail, because no one would willingly pay for digital content. He compared it to Coca Cola coming out of the faucet for free, so why would someone willingly pay for a Coke?

      As it turns out, people do like supporting things they enjoy, and iTunes is the largest retailer of music on the planet. Frankly, I think Apple has enough clout that they could make a difference here. They successfully sell DRM-free music. They need to publicly make the argument for why DRM is a broken concept so that the big players finally listen.

      The MPAA/RIAA won't listen to Google because they think Google is the devil.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    2. Re:Entrenched Interests by ackthpt · · Score: 5, Informative

      Content owners do have a right to make money from their content.

      But the argument for DRM is a poor one. It punishes paying customers while not stopping piracy. Even worse, content owners/providers have to pay money to license DRM technology. It is a lose-lose scenario.

      The CEO of Warner Brothers at the time predicted iTunes would fail, because no one would willingly pay for digital content. He compared it to Coca Cola coming out of the faucet for free, so why would someone willingly pay for a Coke?

      As it turns out, people do like supporting things they enjoy, and iTunes is the largest retailer of music on the planet. Frankly, I think Apple has enough clout that they could make a difference here. They successfully sell DRM-free music. They need to publicly make the argument for why DRM is a broken concept so that the big players finally listen.

      The MPAA/RIAA won't listen to Google because they think Google is the devil.

      Back in the days of Mozart, once an opera was performed for the first time it fell into public domain. You were allowed to make money on your first show and by doing the best peformance of said show for as long as the public would support you. You were thus encouraged to keep creating.

      Roll to the present and if you have one good song, you employ copyright to make money from it for the rest of your life, plus 70 years for whatever offspring you had or the profit of whomever you sold the rights to.

      Since Apple is not writing or performing, they'll make money because there's always a new hot song out tomorrow. **AA are terrified they won't have scratch for their lunch money or to keep their stock price up for tomorrow.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    3. Re:Entrenched Interests by Elder+Entropist · · Score: 2

      He compared it to Coca Cola coming out of the faucet for free, so why would someone willingly pay for a Coke?

      Water comes out of the faucet for free, but plenty of people buy bottled water.

    4. Re:Entrenched Interests by abigsmurf · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, why doesn't the BBC hold itself to the values upon which America was founded! It's like they don't think the constitution applies to them or something!

    5. Re:Entrenched Interests by russotto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Those Entrenched Interests never went away however, and they try to chip away at those rights at every opportunity. We are very close to the point, if not past it, where copyright infringement becomes civil disobedience -- if not a civil duty.

      Civil disobedience is defeated. First of all, if you want to commit civil disobedience, you've got to be able to show your situation is at least as bad as Jim Crow, or you'll be sneered at rather than sympathized with. Since no one in the mainstream will believe DRM is as bad as Jim Crow (even if they believe it is bad at all, which is unlikely), you're done there.

      Second, civil disobedience won't work when the result of disobedience is that you are quietly punished. You need to be _noisily_ punished without being portrayed as a mere criminal, which means you need the support of the media... who are your opponents.

      Third, most mainstream people agree with the RIAA's position, when push comes to shove. Oh, they'll violate it left and right, but if you put it to them, they'd agree it's wrong to do so. And they'd see anyone trying to fight about it as merely trying to avoid responsibility for their actions. Authority bias is rampant today; if you can be seen as an authority (as the RIAA is), anyone opposing you is automatically wrong.

    6. Re:Entrenched Interests by dmacleod808 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So I, being Rick Astley, can simply go to the store once every 5 years and buy my own album? And put provisions in my will for my estate to do the same in perpetuity?

      --
      There Can Be Only One...
    7. Re:Entrenched Interests by mlts · · Score: 2

      Nail, head hit. To the unwashed masses, DRM is made to be just like a lock on a vending machine or a fish-resistant guard on a deposit box. It is something that sucks, but people dismiss as part of what they get.

      I doubt this mentality will go away anytime soon. Just like how people compare copyright infringement with theft (or murder). Infringement [1] is more akin to Beavis and Butthead sneaking into an empty theater to watch Twilight than someone shoplifting a DVD of it.

      So, we will deal with the DRM cycle where new stuff comes out that is Draconian, and it gets cracked or people just don't buy it, and the content producers go for another notch.

      The ironic thing is that in markets where DRM wins, such as consoles... prices for stuff are always increasing. Weren't we promised lower prices if the pirates went away?

      [1]: Infringement on a non commercial nature. Of course, copying someone's CD to sell it is a completely different ballgame and is actual theft (as it removed legitimate revenue from the IP holder).

    8. Re:Entrenched Interests by Muad'Dave · · Score: 2

      He compared it to Coca Cola coming out of the faucet for free, so why would someone willingly pay for a Coke?

      People willingly pay for water, for Pete's sake, which does come out of a faucet for free. Sometimes it's perception (bottled water seems to taste better), sometimes it's convenience (I'm at an airshow and it's 100 degrees).

      It sounds like Mr. WB CEO has no idea what people want or are willing to spend money on.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    9. Re:Entrenched Interests by Medievalist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Content owners do have a right to make money from their content.

      Really? OK, I'll make a movie that nobody wants to see, and nobody wants to buy, and spend my life's savings on it! Society will owe me money! Wooooohoooooo! I'm in the benjamins, baby!

      Absolute statements are rarely correct. In Real Life [tm] a group of citizens have decided to permit certain types of unfair restriction of trade in order to achieve a greater good. But nobody has a "right" in the absolute, moral sense, to make money for painting a picture, recording noise, etc., etc. It is a contrived, fictious legal right meant to serve a purpose, and if it is not serving said purpose it then the law is unjust.

    10. Re:Entrenched Interests by ari_j · · Score: 2

      That's a bad idea because (among other reasons that others have posted) it requires you to investigate whether any of the millions-every-day retail sales of content that occurred in the preceding 5 years was for the content you will be claiming is now in the public domain. On the other side of the same coin, the artist would have to do the same except for a much longer time period to prove that at least one sale every 5 years occurred in order to retain his rights.

  4. So here's a chance for government to really work by argStyopa · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...so if the government were headed with a real leader (ie instead of a toady to their special-interests), they would confront whoever was the HEAD of the board that made such a statement.

    They could discuss the fact that while some government activities necessarily need such protections ("we'd tell you but it's too secret!"), the corrosive and pernicious nature of such justifications when they are revealed to be absolute bullshit makes it critical that any government official resorting to said evasion to protect what is otherwise a weakly-justified decision needs to be punished in the most public and visceral way to show that we (the Government) bears that public trust most seriously.

    And then punch them in the face, knock them to the ground, and fire them - banning them from ever working for the government in ANY capacity, ever.

    What are the odds that would happen?

    As an American, I would love that to happen more here, too.

    --
    -Styopa
  5. Government Agency Lies by ackthpt · · Score: 2

    Not really surprised, is anyone? Probably lied for a reason, rather than out of laziness or bull-headed intransigence, but you'll either have to dig a bit more or ask yourself, "Who benefits from this lie?"

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  6. Re:What did you expect? by ackthpt · · Score: 3, Interesting

    They knew that the public would never go for it, so they hid the fact that they had no good reason for it. Sort of reminds me of Soviet-era secret trials, held using secret evidence - no evidence whatsoever is needed to do what you want, because it's 'too sensitive to release'!

    Or your patriotic duty to believe the state when it tells you your ignorance is all for the best.

    In Soviet Russia .. uh .. I dunno.

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  7. sleazy but the rights holders may be the victims by Jerry+Atrick · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Luckily the encryption is simply a 'secret' huffman table and already available for MythTV, MediaPortal and I guess every other OSS PVR software usable in the UK. It's almost as if the secrecy was about BSing the rights holders knowing full well there was no actual protection in place...

  8. Mmm, anyone can find this story on the BBC itself? by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Guess this might finally convince those who think the BBC is unbiased about how wrong they are. The BBC has been caught out so many times in the past yet people continue to believe they are any more credible then Fox or Reuters. Unbiased != telling me what I want to hear.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  9. Secret laws ... by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Insightful

    and finally, the full rules set out by DTLA for its DRM were governed by confidentiality agreements, which meant that UK manufacturers would be ordered to comply with a set of secret rules that the public wasn't allowed to know.

    So, I'm of the opinion that any law, regulation, or treaty which the public isn't allowed to know the specifics of should be null and void.

    You simply can't have "secret laws" in a free society.

    And, once again it seems the US-based media companies are trying to get laws abroad they can't have domestically. Then they'll point to those laws as something that needs to be done domestically in order to keep pace with the rest of the world.

    At this rate, the "rights holders" will be the ones who dictate to us how technology can be used on the assumption that everything everybody does is "stealing" from them. (My god, two people could watch this show and nobody would know!!)

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:Secret laws ... by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Insightful

      While I agree with your post, this 'secret rules' is akin to a contract or non-disclosure agreement, not a 'secret law'.

      Except, in this case, this "non-disclosure agreement" was in direct contradiction to an existing EU law:

      the proposal violated the EU common market by breaking foreign TV receivers and it meant that popular free/open source receivers and recorders would be frozen out of the UK device market

      The fact that they tried to keep this secret because they had no really good defensible reason highlights the problems with it.

      Your NDA can't spill into things affected by laws and policies that are written down.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  10. Re:So here's a chance for government to really wor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Well it couldn't happen as discussed, because _neither_ Ofcom nor the BBC are a function of government. Ofcom is government-approved (but not an arm of the government), and the BBC is wholly independent (with a constitution established by Royal charter, but not under Crown control).

    Our government is wisely engineered almost totally out of this picture.

  11. Re:Mmm, anyone can find this story on the BBC itse by DaveGod · · Score: 4, Informative

    Right here.

    On this new Guardian piece? Not that I can see yet. But having read the piece, why would they? There's nothing new in it. The Guardian now get to add some quotation marks to exact wording for things which were all described before.

    Worse, they quote plain-English paragraphs then paraphrase it and tell you what you should interpret from it. All supposition, opinion and subjectivity.

    DRM on BBC broadcasts is an arse, but so is this article.

  12. Re:Mmm, anyone can find this story on the BBC itse by abigsmurf · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How exactly does this show bias on the BBC? It was a matter that directly and primarily affected their programming. They were always going to have to pick a viewpoint and stick by it. If being in favour of DRM was a biased viewpoint, so is being against. As the whole issue centred around them, they couldn't pick the middle ground either.

    The BBC is more than willing to be incredibly critical of itself, if you'd have seen their coverage of the Hutton Inquiry, you would've known that. I've never seen any news agency quite so willing to cover news stories that damn themselves.

  13. Not so much DRM as receiver manufacturer lock-out by ChumpusRex2003 · · Score: 5, Informative

    The technical issues behind this fracas are even more banal, and so trivial that it's already been reverse engineered. In effect, the "DRM" was purely a closed specification, and not a technological measure such as encryption.

    Unsurprisingly, the specification has already been deployed in popular open-source projects.

    For those interested, the technical extent of the "DRM" and "encryption" was the use of a pre-calculated Huffman table, which must be embedded in the receiver firmware, in order to obtain the programme guide.

  14. It's a con trick by badfish99 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's a con trick by the BBC.

    No-one wants DRM on the BBC's broadcasts; not even the BBC themselves. But many content providers, especially American ones, are trying to insist on it. So the BBC have devised a very clever way to con the content providers.

    The trick is to put DRM into the broadcast version of the program guide, that tells you what is on when. This was announced with great fanfare as "the BBC is adding DRM to its broadcasts", with no mention of the small technical detail that the actual video and audio will have no DRM. So the content providers think that they have got their way, but there will be no impediment at all to (for example) capturing a broadcast off the air and making a torrent out of it. Articles like TFA are part of the con: they help convince the content providers that they have got what they want, which in turn induces them to sell stuff to the BBC that we might otherwise not see.

    The commercial set-top-box manufacturers don't care, because they have to cater for genuine DRM on the commercial channels anyway. And the hobbyists who are running software such as MythTV don't care, because they download the program guide from the BBC website, which conveniently provides it in machine-readable form with no DRM.

    1. Re:It's a con trick by majesticmerc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So let me get this straight... The BBC is deceiving the content providers, to protect the rights of it's consumers?

      Do hamburgers eat people in the UK too?