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NYPD Dismantling Occupy Wall Street Encampment
First time accepted submitter Red_Chaos1 was the first to write with news that, as of around 06:30 UTC, the NYPD appears to have begun removing the encampment of Occupy Wall Street. At 06:34 UTC the Mayor's office issued a tweet declaring: "Occupants of Zuccotti should temporarily leave and remove tents and tarps. Protesters can return after the park is cleared." Around 07:15 UTC the first of several large dumpsters were deposited and the police began throwing tents and other debris into it. Reports also indicate that a Long Range Acoustic Device is on the premises. The police are using helicopters and physical barriers to prevent news coverage, but the Occupiers are streaming the events (alternative stream; #occupywallstreet on irc.indymedia.org is also rather active for those who don't fancy flash or twitter.) As of 09:15 or so, the situation according to those near NYC is that the park has more or less been cleared.
I haven't particularly warm-hearted feelings for the Occupy hipsters, but...
The police are using helicopters and physical barriers to prevent news coverage
Seems a bit excessive and somewhat dubious.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
http://www.ustream.tv/TheOther99
Major media helicopters have been forced out of the air by NYPD. Lots of fresh news on twitter:
https://twitter.com/#!/search?q=%23occupywallstreet
NYPD Police scanner here:
http://www.radioreference.com/apps/audio/?action=wp&feedId=8905
NYPD switchboard isn't taking any more calls:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/home/contact_information.shtml
If this is right and legal and just, why wait until 1am to do it? Why? And why bar press? And why the hell didn't you just leave them alone in the first place, ppl would be like: "ppl in the park, protesting, want something" and then "next". But instead, it's sure to backfire. People want to believe the stuff they were taught in elementary school about freedom, etc. *shrugs*
Yeah, right, it's just a lazy bunch of hippies with no brain... In what world are you living? Are part of the side of the 1%? Do you really think what they want is just get richer? Also, who's property are you talking about? I have read/seen/heard that they were anywhere else than on public spaces. Also, I think you might be the only person that doesn't know what they are protesting against.
It has been going on for a couple of months now.
At this point there is no real goal other than 'dismantel the man'.
If you guys are *serious* about staying there and doing something then get a GOAL. Something you can actually achieve. Other than camping out. Winter is coming and it gets cold there.
If your goal is nothing more than being pissed off at the 'man'. Well that has been going on for many generations.
You guys have the will to do something. You just have no idea what exactly you want. Also keep in mind you will need to convince the other 98% of us to think it is a good idea too. Some will join you because they like a 'good cause'. Others will oppose you just because you want to change things. But if all you can come up with is 'i hate the man'. Well, we all do whats your point?
If you do not come up with a concrete goal soon the 'man' will get tired of your BS and toss you on your ear.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Throwing tents into dumpsters, without issuing a 'vacate or your property is forfeit' order seems like a clear violation to a non-lawyer.
Lawyers? Or have I simply missed something requiring the demonstrators to disperse?
You suggest:
Perhaps a haircut and an education might help you attain wealth quicker than living in a cardboard box on someone else's property.
I dress well, keep my hair cut and my face shaved, I have BS and MS science degrees from good schools. I haven't been able to find a job since finishing grad school - almost two years ago.
There is reason to protest, and the fact that you don't understand what they're protesting is as telling as your non-solution of getting a haircut and an education.
Though I fully support their ideals I wasn't enthralled with most of the crowd in Zuccotti Park when I went to check it out, and I wouldn't join such an occupation myself, but you're attacking the messenger and not the message - because there is very little that is attackable (barring fringe elements).
By removing protesters, rather than having talks with them, the government is showing the occupy movement that they don't care. People should be allowed to practice peaceful protest, but it seems like the Occupy movement is being repeatedly shown that the government doesn't have a heart. First they were fenced in on the street. Then they were pepper sprayed. Then when it got cold, the fire department came and took away the generators providing heat. Now they're being forcibly removed from where they were camped.
This is really sad, and I don't think any of these things were the correct response.
It's true that a bunch of pseudo-hippies are crashing the protests, for douche points or whatever scorekeeping is used in the rapacious subculture, but that does not invalidate the handful of actual protestors that started the movement and continue to stand vigil, nor the effect the moment has had in sensitizing the public to some of the more serious issues plaguing North America.
What's particularly ironic is that the NYPD is imposing censorship and using arguably anti-terrorist techniques and tools to squelch a peaceful protest. As if the NYPD needed any more bad press... The power of the Occupy movement is not so much in its stated message, but in the way the corporations and authorities respond to it. It is bringing much needed attention to these crooked organisations and reminding the everyman that the government and its corporate masters are conspiring against him.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
Zucotti Park is privately owned.
According to the Livestream, at least 200 people remain and they are being arrested.
The protesters made some good points:
Chrony Capitalism coupled with inflation really has created a system where money comes out of the void, shoots to the top and by the very existence of that new money being created causes the money other people hold to decline in value.
Wall Street without a doubt orchestrated the creation of this system.
HOWEVER Wall Street people are the wrong ones to protest. Companies exist to make money by whatever means legal, and in some cases not legal. The bottom line is companies exist to make money. You invest in whatever company is most capable of doing that.
The problem lies in chronyism. A company that participates in chronyism isn't doing anything wrong, it's a means to an end in the companies goal of accumulating money. The corrupt government playing ball with chronies on the other hand IS doing something wrong.
Our government representatives are supposed to represent the people. When they begin to self-serve instead of serve the people they are doing something wrong.
By protesting Wall Street they're sending the message they don't want anyone to make money. If they were to "occupy the mall" instead and focus all of their energies and talent into figuring out the mechanics of every bribe, kick-back, vote trade, intimidation tactic, threat and dishonest move of every politician in Washington and create something akin to Wikipedia devoted specifically to those ends with as much evidence as possible we would be putting the real problem back in check. Unfortunately our three branch balance of power is out of balance, I blame the executive and legislative branches for pushing it out of balance and I blame the judicial branch for actively endorsing the shift in balance.
I don't get an actual feeling the OWSers are motived to fix things. I get a sense of "I'm fucking with you because I can" and I get the feeling they're pushing for a fascist communist/socialist shift. As with every large movement it's obviously not an across the board thing, but I do feel that it's the general consensus, and I'm also starting to suspect outside driving forces, in much the same way the Egyptian government had paid pro-government protesters to clash with the grass-roots protesters some time back. With the OWS crowd they wouldn't need more than a couple of key charismatic people placed in each camp.
In short theres a real problem that needs fixing, but I feel the motive of the protesters is to insert an agenda instead of actually fixing the problem.
The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
I'm not sure how the original wall street movement is going, but it has spread to cities around the world. The one we had in our local small city was ridiculous. As much as I'm happy to defend the right for people to peacefully protest it seemed to turn into more of a tent slum in the middle of our nice city parks, a park which is for everyones use.
While I'm all for their protest, in face of cancelling a major event that is hosted in the park annually I'm glad that our council gave them a move on order. Not as excessive as this NYPD action, but the protestors did make their point and it's time to let the rest of us also enjoy the public property they decided to essentially squat on.
No one has ever accomplished a goddamn thing by "camping out". You protest during business hours when you can get people's attention and when media bureaus are active and fully staffed, then you go home, take a shower, and sleep in a warm bed. In the morning, you go back and do it again. Rinse, repeat.
The only attention these knoblickers are attracting by sleeping in a New York park is from the rats and the homeless.
Nothing worthwhile ever happens before noon
While I do agree that the world is not fair and people have a right to be upset and fearful of a 2nd crash with this dangerous flash trading and debt created by the rich, I do feel these protestors are morons.
Not all of course as I would want to protest for a few hours. However, occupying a public space, supporting socialism, and refusing to get jobs or at least look and just whine out in the cold in a tent is not very smart at all. What do they expect? A trader walking past says, oh poor fellows. Let me tell the CEO of Goldman Sachs to disaband and give all our money back to the people and hire these people to watch other peole do jobs. Shame on us ... YEAH RIGHT!
Start a political party, organize voters house to house, go get a mcJob to start paying down the student loan debts you agreed to pay for (I don't care if it is a 40k a year job starting out), and so on. Doing these things might not get you as successful as the those over 34 or your parents, but it is better than whinning and you can start to do something about it. The Tea Party was smart and taken over the republican party. That is why there was no compromise on the debt ceiling a .001% tax increase will give a (R) a one way ticket out of office from the Tea Party. OWS needs to do the same.
Defacing property with no message is wrong. If anything many support the tentants of communism and socialism that I find a problem rather than a solution.
http://saveie6.com/
The Tea Party was smart and taken over the republican party.
Tea Party didn't just suddenly appear out of the blue - radicalization of Republican party has happened steadily over the last two decades (accelerating over the last one), so what you see today is just a new label slapped on top of the end result of this process.
Or at least the "right" to squat on someone else's property for several months while defying eviction orders.
You can vote on whether you think this was the right thing to do or not...
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/hundreds-cops-flood-zuccotti-park-occupy-wall-street-protesters-show-defiance-retreat-surrender-article-1.977430
I think the reason the government and mainstream media are uneasy with the Occupy Wall Street movement is it is basically saying the government in its current form no longer represents the will of most American people. Governments do not like having their legitimacy called into question. No other american protest movement in my life time has done this.
Simple way to do away with all the pesky rights people have in public spaces: sell the public spaces to private investors, who can then make up arbitrary rules. E.g., in Berlin, Germany, the city council sold the Potsdamer Platz to investors (Sony, Daimler) because it could not be bothered with restoring this important and historic public space to its former glory, after it had been dormant for decades as it lay right at the inner-German border. Until the separation of Germany, Potsdamer Platz had been the urban center of Germany's capital, with all that goes with that. When you enter "Sony Center" today, you are informed by signs that you are not allowed to linger, not allowed to play music, not allowed to express political opinion, etc.
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
NYPD has some valid reasons to clean that park (as it is private and not everything happens by the book), but they totally drop the ball with trying to control it as much as possible - it is already crying out loud "dictatorship".
As for OWS - those people should understood that only protesting nothing will change - they have to get into politics at this moment. Two party system have failed US, because currently elites of both parties are drawn in lobby money and are constantly encycled by rich people. Even if someone like Obama wants really to do something (I'm not saying that he did or does), usually such initiatives are leveled with low level complaining. If it doesn't work, "unamerican", "socialist", etc. arguments comes up. You know how it works.
user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
He is the 1%. The king and his court are hardly going to be advocating for the foundation of a republic are they?
Remember this next time you watch TV or any other media. How many of the people you see in media are making minimum wage or even an average wage.
For that matter, how many here on slashdot do a real days work? Hint, it is 10:30 in holland as I post this. Do you think a factory worker has the same luxury?
I am not the 1%, I am somewhere in the middle but I came from the bottom and know just how much you can expect from the 1% in caring even the tiniest bit about anyone else. Bloomberg can paint himself with a donkey or an elephant, in reality he is filthy rich and cares only for himself.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
There are times when a job is more expensive than just being unemployed. For example, commute costs. Not everyone can afford to live in the heart of downtown, and most US cities, bicycling is out of the question unless one wants to risk having a white ghost bike planted in their memory. So, it requires a car and those costs associated with finding parking. Just the $25 per day parking cost can easily be a significant fraction of someone's wages because of the pressure to hire people at min wage and keep them at that.
So, the "occupy a barber shop and employment agency office" claptrap is just plain wrong, and very dangerously close to "let them eat cake."
Who knows. The occupy * movements have had their back broken, and are essentially dead after the synchronized crackdowns, but one has to at least give credit to people willing to risk it all, with the minimum being having to answer "yes" on "have you ever been arrested?" for the rest of their life on every job application or bank form. (And yes, virtually all jobs past McDonalds don't care about *convictions*, they care about *arrests* and NCIC records. Employers view that people can buy their acquittal, but if a police officer considers someone to be such a threat they have to whip out the cuffs and do the paperwork, the arrestee is a criminal, period.)
I wonder if it's also the American Dream to make generalizations and straw men.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
...watch the news. they actually ARE a bunch of lazy hippies. dirty too...
I'm watching it live now and I don't see a bunch of hippies. I see people so fed up with a corrupt government that they are risking a lot to try to make it right. They are risking their jobs, their health, heck they'll probably get a police record if not worse. Why? They see no future. Their government only listens to corporate lobbyists. Their government gives money out to CEOs but won't help the people. Corporations are ruining their country and nobody else is doing anything. I respect them and hope nobody gets hurt.
Neither was nazi germany all that bad, as long as you weren't on the list. That is why such regimes can continue to exist, because the majority isn't on the list and it is very unhuman (but very human) to risk getting on a list for someone else who is on a list.
That is why real heroes, like the people of Urk (fairly strict christians who had no real love or hate for jews but disliked people telling them what to do with a passion) are so fucking rare. It takes balls of steels to risk your safety for someone else. The fast majority did not. Ich habe es nicht gewust really means, I spend all my time looking the other way so it wouldn't happen to me.
And the US has been caught out many many times recently and in the past in making people disappear. Check all the foreign detainment camps operated by the CIA. It is not even a secret anymore, except by those like you who choose to look the other way.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Unless you live in bumblefuck nowhere, there are thousands of jobs available around where you live. The problem is, you want a specific job for a specific amount of money, and won't settle for what's available. Which is sad, if you haven't taken anything in 2 years. You're unemployed by choice, and that makes your opinion on OWS even funnier.
The thing is, when the GP applies for a proper job suited to his qualifications, the comfortably well off fucktard interviewing him will look at his CV and say to himself "this guy isn't the sort of professional go-getting person our high quality organisation wants, look he spent two years flipping burgers instead of working unpaid as an intern for Goldman Sachs".
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
fascist communist/socialist
dont talk, if you dont know shit. what you typed in there in one shot, are THREE different, separate concepts, and they dont go together. one cannot exist or be merged with the other. but you have written them as if they are one or merged concepts.
so, basically you dont know shit about these, and yet you have typed us what, 6 paragraphs ?
how about taking that time to actually google and read what the concepts you were shitting about ACTUALLY mean, from wikipedia or some other source ? out of respect for the people in your community ? huh ? so next time, you wont shit around without actually knowing shit and coming up like an idiot ?
Read radical news here
Actually, my last big theory is that we have exactly one shot at a grand slam Dark Horse candidate, totally out of nowhere, to pummel Washington into smithereens. But only once. Then the outcasts will be livid and we'll see the final sweep into oppression.
But the last tool the Big Two use is they're all in 1 town, and they play the entire country on a Prisoner's Dilemma. And it worked for 50-100 years. But with the advent of the newest social media, if the entire country suddenly decides it has had enough, one last vote could sweep out absolutely everybody leaving the entire Washington machine speechless.
We'd need both the Pres and a Filibuster-Proof Congress. Then we'd have to work FAST. We'd only get a year (you better bet the Justice Dept would cheat and not let us have all four years!), but maybe we can fix 30 years of abuse.
Fix copyrights.
Fix patents.
Fix net neutrality
Fix police arrogance
Your choice of 20 more things.
Let there be loopholes!
Being funny for a moment, let's apply our Rapid Software Development to Law! Heh wanna get the Geek's revenge for all the version explaining we have to do?
Corp: "Haha we found a loophole so we're going to do This Evil Thing."
Fast Track Administration: "Oh. Nice 0day. Okay. Tomorrow is Patch Tuesday. It's 3PM. Better hope your execs are around to get it done because it won't be there tomorrow at 9am. K. Thx. Bye."
Use the "put the testing on the people" mentality we wail about into lawmaking. Think about it, an Administration that moves with blinding speed, getting more done in a year than the last century.
"Hi. We're Comcast. We're going to throttle torrents."
"Internet Law 2.01. Sudo No you're not. Go away. Next!"
"Hi. We're MPAA. We're going to throw those pirates in jail for copyright theft."
"Copyright Extension Act is repealed. Oh look, how many works are now in public domain! Disney, yes we know about the Mouse, here's a coupon."
But it only works ONCE.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Police are clearing out the park so that the owners can clean it.
Once they are done cleaning it, the protesters will be allowed back in so long as they do not bring tents, sleeping bags, etc.
Unless you live in bumblefuck nowhere, there are thousands of jobs available around where you live.
If you do live in bumblefuck nowhere, then you can't afford to get to where the jobs are. Jobs increasingly do not pay a living wage, so the total number of jobs is totally uninteresting without the percentage of them which do. Under Bush the total number of jobs remained fairly constant, but hundreds of thousands of full-time jobs were lost and replaced with part-time positions without benefits or indeed enough hours to actually live on. Taking two jobs simultaneously can bring up the hours if you can find employers who can be flexible about the fact that you have an inviolate schedule, but it won't provide you benefits, so your family winds up without health care and the first time someone suffers a debilitating illness you're out on the street.
The problem is, you want a specific job for a specific amount of money, and won't settle for what's available.
My problem is, they won't even hire me for what's available in the backwater I live in, because the jobs are all beneath my skill level, and they think I'll quit and take another job when it becomes available... as if it would in this poophole. So I work freelance and I make it, but it's not fantastic. But then, I guess since I choose to live in the boonies, I don't deserve to be able to get a full time job which will support a simple lifestyle.
Maybe it's unrealistic to expect that we go back to the 1950s level of prosperity where a busboy can afford to buy a house, but I don't think it's unrealistic to expect that most people should be able to raise their family on a job for which the public education system has provided them some preparation. Further, it's not clear how our society will function at all if we don't make it so — perhaps that is a sign that we should put some effort into fixing the problem instead of talking about how people are lazy. If they are, it's because our culture has taught them they should be, and now it's going to have to change to make people who aren't. No matter what, it is time for massive social change, even if we disagree on what shape that change should take.
Too bad you didn't log in. That makes your opinion even funnier. You probably rented it.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Good. No one knows what they are protesting anyway.
I liked this cartoon.
Occupying *is* peaceful protest
It's called a sit-in. Just like in Greensboro North Carolina and Jackson Mississippi in the 1960's civil rights movement which resulted in desegregation of lunch counters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_sit-ins
Government has just gotten better at sweeping protesters under the rug and stifling media coverage by designating areas away from the target of the protests as "free speech zones".
It's a backhanded way of doing it, but it's pretty clear that what's going on is a violation of the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment.
I find it ironic that the Tea Party is portrayed as "Right Wing" and the Occupy movement is portrayed as "Left Wing" when both groups have the same goal of throwing corrupt scoundrels out of public office.
I think that characterization has more owed to Sarah Palin seeing a parade and running to get her baton and march in front of it as if she were leading. Ironically, her doing that has protected the Tea Party somewhat under the political shield of a former vice presidential candidate, which has required that they be taken seriously.
You would think that some other savvy politician would take the same approach for the Occupy movement to advance their agenda, as Palin did.
with the Tea Party.
-- Terry
I guess there would be more jobs if you guys didn't need to give 700bil to Goldman and friends for bonuses.
The funny thing about that is that the "Occupy" movement is as much, or more, a branch of the Democratic Party as the Tea Party was of the Republican Party, yet the guys receiving the bonuses you are complaining about are movers and shakers in the same Democratic Party.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Americans are completely and utterly blind to the mis-deeds of their politicians as well as the abuse of their rights by said politiciams
Not at all. Americans as individuals are mostly POWERLESS to do anything about the misdeeds.
About the only power they have is where they spend their money. And with modern cell phones - the citizens could be empowered.
1) The Armed forces over in Afghanistan are taking pictures of people and using facial recognition to ID people. You can't choose to deal/not deal with someone due to race/religion/sex but if they happen to to work for Gold-Man Sacks....
2) The cameras on portable devices can read UPC codes and hold SQL databases. Compare the UPC code to a database of policies of the firm that makes them - that way if your thing is "is there an active boycott" because you support unions - you can make a different choice or even select that product over others.
3) Note how the rich and powerful are wanting people to do "code enforcement" - the Texas citizen makes reports of illegal car parking as an example. Take the list of the donors to the political parties and encourage citizens to take the cell phones to the political donors properties and compare the condition of the home to the 800+ page 'building code violation' ordinances. (This one is more about showing how the politically connected get special treatment, finding fraud and abuse in the political donation system and pushing for campaign reform.)
I'm pretty sure that's not true.
You are welcome on my lawn.
I had the opportunity of visiting occupy wall st. a couple of weeks ago for a couple of hours. I don't claim that this makes me some sort of deep expert, but I did get to see it and formed a few impressions.
First impressions were of Manhattan, which I had never visited before. Frankly, my impressions were that the place is a police state. I visited areas of Manhattan far away from #occupy, and there's pretty much a copy on ever street corner. There are also signs everywhere about how you are under video surveillance by the police. When I took the Staten Island Ferry into Battery Park, it was escorted by a literal gun boat. Now, I'm a Southern Boy, and I found myself thinking ... "okay, if I were in Beijing or even London, I wouldn't be surprised. But this is America! What the hell is going on in this place?" It seems to me that New Yorkers have traded there "eternal liberties" for "termporary safety", and they need to take them back.
So, I more or less wandered into #occupy without even knowing that that was where I was heading. Everyone could certainly tell that this old, fat, tired, bald guy with bad clothes was from out of town, but everybody was very courteous to me and eager to tell me about their particular issue(s). Emphasis on their particular and the (s), because there was not one, unified issue driving the place unless it was the feeling that "those in power aren't listening to us." I was approached by people whose primary concern was corporate power, tax reform, fracking, and gay rights in the hour or so I was there.
If I thought the police presence in Manhattan was over the top, around Zuchotti park it was completely over the top. I'm talking cops every ten feet, a portable observation tower with people-tracking radar ... you name it. But, here's the thing. So, near the kitchen, there's a sign that says, "X00 people have been arrested since #occupy began. There will be a meeting to discuss legal strategy at 8:00PM." And, 10 feet from the sign, and 20 feet from a cop, there's a couple of guys smoking pot right in front of God and everybody. Good old southern country boy that I am, all I can think is, "we at least closed the barn door when we did that!" I also wondered, were those umpteen-hundred protesters arrested being persecuted for "sticking it to the man", or were they arrested for smoking pot in front of a cop? Probably impossible to sort out.
So, I hung around for a while, sang a few Bob Dylan and Woody Guthrie songs, grabbed a half-dozen copies of the "Occupy Wall Street Times", and left." All in all, an interesting experience, and the Occupy Wall Street Times might be worth something someday if this turns out to be the start of an "Arab Spring" kind of movement in the US (although I doubt it.)
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
Have you ever tried to apply for one of those as a postgraduate? You get turned down on the grounds of being "overqualified".
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Yes, we know. You represent the "peaceful" protesters of the Occupy movement. And when you get done with the powers that be, you will move on to those who have too much money (defined as "more than me"). Look how well that worked during the French Revolution.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
I'm pretty sure that's not true.
50.1% of Americans voted against him coming back for a second term (and a first one, for that matter.)
Yeah, I can tell you're doing pretty bad; in your posting history you discuss your thousands of dollars worth of lenses and thousands of dollars worth of cameras, your $600 superphone, your recent relocation to Orange County, and conveniently failed to mention that your "BS and MS science degrees" are in geology, which was never a job field with any demand and therefore is irrelevant to the discussion of job availability.
Look, you seem like a nice guy. But what you're doing here is misrepresentation. When you use dishonesty to support a group, it makes the whole group look bad. Think about it.
It only works ONCE, because what you've just described is revolution, and revolution inevitably becomes tedious and annoying to pretty much everyone - including the revolutionaries themselves. Businesses larger than a sidewalk vendor can't cope with laws that change on a daily (or even a weekly) basis. It's terrible to say, but to a certain extent bad laws that are stable and can be worked around are generally preferable to volatile laws that constantly change in unpredictable ways.
The real key to reforming US politics is to reduce the power of parties to enforce discipline on their members, and reduce them to brand names that let voters know they're likely to be getting a certain bundle of beliefs, without the teeth to force them to support specific positions that go against the best interests of the specific people who elected them.
If you want to know when Congress really started to go down the shithole in recent years, look no further than the "one-vote win" policy that the Republican leadership in Congress began to aggressively follow sometime around the turn of the century -- the policy of suppressing debate, and crafting laws that compromised *just* enough to win by exactly one single vote, and nothing more.
I personally know at least one individual involved in the policy, and in retrospect even they've admitted (privately, years later) that it was misguided. It's something that might be tolerable in a crisis, but in the long run it actually works against the party in power because the disenfranchised 49% ends up being slightly different after every vote, and eventually you end up with a situation where the percentage of voters who regard themselves as "disenfranchised" starts to approach 60-70% (because people forget about the votes that were in favor of things they don't particularly care about, and vividly remember the votes of things they care about passionately). That's exactly what's happening today.
A good place to start the reform might be to look at how the internal power structure of the Senate differs from that of the House of Representatives. The Senate isn't perfect, but it does seem to be a tiny bit more resistant to blind partisan politics (statistically, a Senate Democrat and Republican from the same state are more likely to vote the same way than they are to vote with their party leadership). A good place to start might be allocating committee memberships and leadership via secret Condorcet balloting instead of having representatives elect one leader (almost inevitably and without exception, on party lines) who then proceeds to allocate memberships and leadership positions on equally rigid party lines (with occasional exceptions for "well-behaved" members of the other party). Maybe even throw a complete monkey wrench into the power process by picking a dozen representatives at random and giving them first choice at committee memberships, before anybody else is allowed to bid on them. You don't necessarily want to throw the process into complete upheaval, but rather ensure that at least one key position ends up statistically in the hands of someone would can use it to screw up the neat, orderly plans of the power establishment -- if only to enforce greater debate and compromise. I've come to believe that real debate in congress in a good, healthy thing, and attempts to suppress it by *either* party are bad.
Is that really the tack you want to take? It's not that the American people are ignorant, it's that they are actually complicit in the war crimes of their leaders?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
How is ~55 million votes out of a ~280 million population, 50.1%? Does not compute. Population as of 4/1/2000 (http://www.census.gov/main/www/cen2000.html), Voting numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2000 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2004). Also, feel free to correct numbers on Wikipedia, aparently, they are wrong with 48.3% for Kerry.
He totally screwed the pooch on illegal immigration, TARP, medicare drug benefit, and just general out of control spending and growth of government.
Oh, you were probably talking about the wars?
I believe the parent is referring to percentage of voting Americans as not all 280 million American can or exercised their right to vote. While your numbers are correct, the basis of your calculation is wrong.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
You Americans need to go Occupy Capitol Hill. Use your freaking guns, the second amendment is there for a reason they won't listen to you sitting in a park, all over the place, in every city I've heard of you'll get moved out and arrested for your peaceful protesting. Don't move, chain yourself down, make a barrier, provoke an attack and counter.
You guys are pussies really when it comes down to protesting. The PD's will use their less-than-lethal weapons on you and you let it happen. As clearly demonstrated, there is no political willpower to change anything, there is no interest from the commercial space to improve your situation. All they care about is when you will move out and in the mean time they'll just vote into law who goes into the Baseball Hall of Fame or whether God should appear on the dollar bill (literally, that's what Republicans are voting on).
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"Americans are completely and utterly blind to the mis-deeds of their politicians as well as the abuse of their rights by said politiciams."(sic)
Yes that is why the new coverage is filled about protesters on both sides Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street. And whenever a politician is caught breaking the law it is posted everywhere.
Ever sense the Nixon Administration the Americans have became obsesses with the mis-deeds of their politicians. Just check out a liberal news source and a conservative new source and you get a good portion of the misdeeds that are done.
The problem isn't as much that we are blind, we are just overexposed and have a hard time really knowing the difference between a president having an extra marital affair or authorizing an illegal wiretap.
The problem is about 50% of the population has below average intelligence, and they are getting more and more information crammed into their heads and a lot of people cannot or don't want to stop the see the big picture and hop onto a small number of sources as the absolute truth while the rest if gives a conflicting message is seen as an utter lie. Debating a middle ground will often get you places as being one of those nazi right winger conservative bible thumping republicans, or those communist left wingers liberal hippy democrats. Just because they will not open their minds to understand both view points and really step back and see their good points and their bad ones.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
"Oh they've made their point! They've said what they want!" Really? Because I've looked. I've seen the "official manifesto" posted here: http://www.nycga.net/resources/declaration/ and it is a rambling read of various supposed evils of companies that make them out simultaneously to be complete idiots and extremely malicious villains, but no actual list of demands. To "Clarify" things there is a picture that looks to be straight out of Mad Max Magazine.
Or then on the official site there's this list: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-ows-demands/. Talk about some of the most stupid, unrealistic demands ever. They want to reduce the workday to 6 hours, yet lower the retirement age to 55 (hint: more work is required to retire since people live longer)? They want a moratorium on foreclosures and layoffs so, you know, nobody needs to actually pay their mortgage, and companies can't get rid of workers even if they must. Then we get some real good ones that show that they've never read the Constitution: "Ban the private ownership of land." "Immediate debt forgiveness for all." "Ban private gun ownership."
So where is this list of very reasonable demands they have? I am not saying find me one guy, I'm saying something from the movement itself. Because I've gone to the official places, and all I'm finding it idiocy.
I believe that the U.S. courts repeatedly held that legislation is exempt from copyright protection. So, even if the NEC is protected by copyright as its printed in the NFPA publications, if you get a copy from your local legislation, you can do with it as you please. Thus bulk resource. Alas, the laws in all of Europe are in complete opposition to this: they have plenty of laws that incorporate fairly expensive standards, and the courts have held that it's OK. Just E.U. legislation (so we exclude member countries' laws!) includes by reference standards that would cost you tens of thousands of Euros to obtain!
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Which is why I said it was wrong. They're not after all of that 1%, just the filthy rich ones that control everything. You don't get into the club until your net worth is 100m+
There are some details like higher income tax above 250k/yr that would affect all of the top 1% but beyond that...
Also I can't believe the taxes in America. If I was making 250k/yr where I am living right now I would be taxed at a base rate of 55% before deductions. I would also be doing damn fine on the 115k/yr(roughly) that I had left in cash. Thats enough money that if you were a real cheapskate on everything else you could buy my house outright every 3 years, and I'm one of the people thats considered "upper middle class".
I'm sorry, 50.1% was intended to be an obvious hip-shot from memory. To get research based about it:
In 2000, 52.1% of voting U.S. Americans voted against George W. Bush.
In 2004, only 49.3% of voting U.S. Americans voted against him.
So, I can see how George W. Bush's actions from 2000 to 2004, in total, could be argued to have won over 2.8% of voting U.S. Americans, although there are mitigating effects such as those people who are pre-disposed to vote for/against a sitting president (I believe the balance still favors for), and the variation in his opposing candidates, which I would characterize as creepy in 2000 vs. un-likeable in 2004.
My point is, not all U.S. Americans are abrasive ignorant jerks - only about half of us.
Neither can black people in Texas and Florida. Man, I wish I was trolling :(...
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I don't know all the reasons behind it, though part of it is because they don't want people camping in it. However these rules have been around for a long, long time. Like decades. There are other places that don't have the same hours, or don't have hours at all, but the particular park they chose, in downtime, does have hours. They apply to everyone.
Again remember: You don't have a right to do whatever you want, wherever you want, public land or not. As another example the county here operates a gun range. It is public, as anything county owned must be. However there are some rather strict rules for its use. There is a fee (a pretty small one, $8 for a day) and you have to abide by all regulations like ceasing fire when the range master calls it, handling firearms safely, wearing appropriate safety gear, and so on. That it is public doesn't mean you can do whatever you want there. Anyone from the public is welcome to come and shoot, but all rules must be followed. Hours of operation are also a rule among them.
I found a list of the OWS demands. Here they are:
"Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr."
Why do those foreign companies have wage and regulation advantages? Because of the minimum wage and because of the endless regulation of products here in the US. Do you really think that raising the minimum wage to $20/hr will help? No! It will have the opposite effect. Either the company, say a fast food joint, will raise their menu prices to cover the cost of expensive labor or they will lay off the majority of their workers. Either way, the company is doomed. "Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors." A single payer system is a pipe-dream. Many other countries have tried and they have failed to provide timely and quality care. Am I saying that our current system is perfect? No. Government regulation and the need for tort reform have driven healthcare prices through the roof. Also, banning patients from using private money to get healthcare? Would they also agree that people should be banned from attending private schools? How about private businesses?
"Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment."
I just have to shake my head. How would they accomplish this? Where does the money come from? You can't get it from taxes. It is impractical.
"Demand four: Free college education."
You would just continue the current system. Already you can get student loans and not pay them back. And you wouldn't improve anything. For example, say I am a hiring directory in a mid-sized company. I have to choose someone to interview. There are two applicants for the same position. One went to a private college with a good reputation and the other went to the state run college. Who am I going to be more likely to interview assuming their experience and grades are the same? Obviously, the one who went to the private school.
"Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand."
Let the market run its course. Oil will become harder to find. As the price of oil goes up, other technologies become cost effective. Subsidizing anything does not make it a viable alternative. You also have to look at the alternatives. Most likely it will be electricity. Where does that electricity come from? We could get it from coal, nuclear, oil, or hydro. All of those are unlikely due to environmental regulation. What does that leave us with? Solar and Wind. Both unreliable and non-cost effective sources. Personally, I would buy an electric car if it can have the same performance, range, and refuel time as my current car. I also believe that nuclear and hydro is the best source.
"Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now."
Where does the money come from and what are you going to do with it? Assuming we print it, that will devalue our currency. If we borrow it, that puts us closer to a Greece or Italy type situation. If we tax it, you stifle the economy. And what are you going to do? Replace metal water and sewar pipes with plastic ones? Make roads wider? Build more/replace bridges? Improve the electrical grid? I live in
You're making the assumption that everyone wants things fixed the same way you want them fixed. Which isn't true.
Godaddy is a scam and a ripoff.
You're not living in America. Or at least, not in the majority of America. You're probably living in the little blue corner of wherever you're at. A lot of people agree with his deeds, especially once you sprinkle "muslim" or "islamic" liberally into the object of your sentence. That's the real America that's all around you. It's a place socially engineered over generations to hate and fear the rest of the world, especially those different from the "Western" norm.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
The campers are acting like the 1%. Self indulgent, acting however they feel, believing they are entitled, believing they are above the law, expecting others to pay for the costs that they generate, etc.
... and then go home or get a room when they tire, and then repeat the process.
Camping is not protesting. The city has said the park is open 24/7 and people can protest there. The owners of the park have welcomed protesters. The only thing being prohibited is camping out. The 99% would show up, protest, carry signs, shout, etc
I got up this morning and I turned on CNN for some noise. As I got ready, they showed the press conference from the Mayor of NY. He was very clear, this park is privately owned but the owners are bound to an agreement to allow 24/7 public access. There are restrictions to this such as no camping etc (which were actively being violated). They can also close the park for cleaning and public health concerns. The owners have completely supported the protesters using the park, and continue to do so. The Mayor stated several times, after it is cleaned, you are welcome to come back, but leave your tents and tarps at home.
You know what else I saw on CNN? Loads of footage of the garbage trucks cleaning up giant piles of garbage and refuse in the park. It looked like a shanty town in a 3rd world country. If there was some sort of media blackout nobody told CNN. If people were in fact kept away, doesn't it make sense that a bunch of extra bodies hanging around just might get in the way of the cleanup efforts?
Go home, let them clean the park, then you are welcome back. That was the message the Mayor gave in the press conference. Somebody please provide a rational argument or facts that they can back up as to why this is a bad thing?
No it is very difficult to have exactly below average intelligence.
Lets use a small scale example of 10 people.
IQ
108,102,103,101,97,99,98,95,99,98
So 40% of them have an above average IQ and 60% have below average IQ none of them have average.
Now as you add more data points you will see the numbers approaching 50% but unless you are really lucky I doubt you reach it.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
> The Democrats are doing it exactly right...and can't get anything passed.
Well, at the moment, the Republicans can't, either. You could cynically argue that the schizoid nature of Congress today demonstrates that, at this moment, there IS NO real consensus about what Americans want Congress to do, and allowing the worst elements of both parties to openly percolate to the surface in public view is healthier than a situation where either party can be actively harmful to the best interests of somewhere between 40 and 60 percent of voters' interests.
Here's the magic test -- if Congress' leaders, after grandstanding about having the support of most Americans, were able to irreversibly call for new elections to occur at some random, unpredictable date between 60 and 120 days from now (so they couldn't pick a moment of scandal and try to ride it to victory, and had to face the real risk of changing tides between now and then), how many of them would actually vote for it? Not one. A few firebrands who aren't very powerful, maybe... but leaders? None. As much as they bitch about gridlock, there's no way in *hell* the Republicans would risk letting a few more Democrats in (or, god forbid, a RINO or two), and no way the Democrats would risk giving the Republicans an unbeatable majority.
The fact is, Congress is gridlocked right now, and it's probably a good thing. Think about how much good the side you support could do if they were able to, then sober up and realize how much damage the other side could do if they had their chance. Where things are going to get REALLY interesting is when the 99%/Occupy crowd starts skimming off the disaffected casual supporters who were previously clinging to the Teaparty groups as the "not in power party" and start drifting over to the other side. It's already happening -- you can watch the Teaparty leadership get more strident and radical by the day, because the leftern end of the spectrum is walking away and ceasing to anchor them towards the middle. The same thing will eventually happen to the 99%/Occupy crowd... they'll have their surge of centrist support, then the middle crowd will start to get uncomfortable with its most vocal leaders' leftist politics, and drift away (leaving them to become more radical and ardent on the left). Stir, rinse, and repeat.
It's the story of American politics. The Democrats of the 70s and 80s were pretty hardcore on the left, as the middle drifted into the Republican camp. Now the middle has drifted back into the Democratic camp, pulled it back towards the center, and the Republican party has gone floating off into right-wing extremism like they did in the late 50s/early 60s. Rush celebrates the defection of RINOs, and the more leftward Democrats mourn the fact that it's now OK for Democrats to support Alaskan oil drilling.
From the US Constitution: Article. VI.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
Those treaties include the Geneva Conventions, which prohibit 1) wars of aggression, 2) torture of combatants, prisoners, or civilians, 3) deliberate destruction of civilian infrastructure, 4) deliberate attacks on civilians, and a number of other points. The Pentagon, under his direction, was also guilty of multiple deliberate violations of the chemical warfare treaties and biological weapons treaties, in addition to (while not a war crime it would still be an impeachable offense) the anti-ballistic missile treaty and a number of nuclear weapons treaties.
No, the bastard isn't going to be prosecuted, any more than Clinton, Obama, or his father will be, because anyone making a serious attempt at prosecution would be dead within days.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin