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NASA's Gypsum Find Clear Evidence There Was Water On Mars
First time accepted submitter RCC42 writes "The Opportunity rover has found evidence that liquid water once flowed on Mars, through the discovery of gypsum — a mineral that can only be formed in the presence of water. Though other evidence in the past has suggested highly acidic water on Mars, this is the first evidence for water with a pH suitable for life as we know it."
We can no longer ignore the need now to send people to mars to establish a base and mine. With this discovery, Mars can now supply all of our drywall needs for the next several centuries!
This space available.
I would have pegged them as flat earthers myself.
Although read in context it makes sense. Oh well, mod me down appropriately! o_O
Because they, contrary to the martians, shoot down unmanned probes.
So, wait. We don't have diplomatic relations with Iran, but they can still file patents with us? Wow, now I know the patent system is messed up.
Persians first calculated the volume of the earth, as a sphere. Invented spherical trigonometry, and all kinds of things.
Remember all that "Arab scientists and mathematicians" kind of talk? None of 'em were arabs. Mostly Persians, with roots in Khorasan - writing in Arabic.
It's similar to calling Sir Issac Newton a "Latin Physicist" because of the language used in the "Principia".
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
If that's the water source, I'd hate to meet the bladder's owner.
Actually, I think they commandeered the command-and-control protocols.
Much more sophisticated than Martians.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Needless to say, Iranian civilization ain't what it used to be. This a major oil producing country with such inept leadership that they have to import refined fuels.
Persia's high point was a long time ago.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
but what about the last 500 years?
The first recorded person to ever fly was from that part of the country, but that was like 600 years ago.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
No that would be the Greeks.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
"It's similar to calling Sir Issac Newton a "Latin Physicist" because of the language used in the "Principia"."
Ofcourse not.... he was a Persian physicist.
My -1 Troll is actually a +1 funny. And my -1 flame is actually a +1 insightfull.
Are we talking just a thin crust, or are we talking "gypsum quarry" size formations?
The reason I ask, is gypsum contains absurd quantities of chemically bound water. If mars has a higher calcium ion concentration than earth does, and had liquid oceans at one time, it is possible that with the carbon dioxide rich atmosphere and lack of techtonic plate movement that a sizable quantity of the ocean turned into "concrete" rather than drying up.
This would mean that much of the light elements (hydrogen, etc) might have escaped being blown off the atmosphere.
This is exciting news for science fiction writers that like to dream about terraforming. Creating techtonic activity would create the geomagnetic dynamo the planet needs, and as a consequence of the subduction and volcanism, huge quantities of water vapor would be expelled as a volcanic gas.
About all the planet would need would be ammonia, for the missing nitrogen. (Doesn't titan have an ammonia atmosphere? Wink, nudge.)
This does not mean the planet would go from lifeless desert to habitable overnight, as the gasses relased would be inhospitable to oxygen dependant life like us, but certain algae species like chlorella can survive in 100% C02 atmospheric concentrations as long as there is sunlight and water. Chlorella is well researched, fully genomically sequenced, and already has engineered varieties. A strain intended to rapidly convert the atmosphere to something a bit less toxic would actually be fairly plausible.
Just NOW?
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Now that it has finally done a good job, it can come home....
XKCD
runaway climate, oceans evaporate, a couple of million years later some beings from Europe may wonder, was there ever life on this desert planet? And a next round of silliness starts again.
Now I know who will be the first to industrialize Mars.
Actually, I think the drone malfunctioned, went into auto-mode and landed itself in the desert. Then an Iranian sheepherder stumbled across it and called authorities.
It's an open question why Iranians graze sheep in the desert though...
Yes, but it was dead. By studying the Greeks they made some significant mathematical and science discoveries.
The Romans, OTOH, ignored the Greeks and we got a dark ages for their lack of effort.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Persians first calculated the volume of the earth, as a sphere. Invented spherical trigonometry, and all kinds of things.
Remember all that "Arab scientists and mathematicians" kind of talk? None of 'em were arabs. Mostly Persians, with roots in Khorasan - writing in Arabic.
It's similar to calling Sir Issac Newton a "Latin Physicist" because of the language used in the "Principia".
Let me guess. Isaac Newton was actually Persian?
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
It's an open question why Iranians graze sheep in the desert though...
Perhaps, as is the case in Australia, grazing sheep on marginal land causes the desert. Once you have broken the environment you get to keep the pieces.
Patent litigation: A doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction... in which everyone seems willing to push the button
That's OK -I first read it as NASA's Gypsies. Gypsies on Mars.
-I'm just sayin'
It is probably simpler to think that they jammed the control frequency/frequencies in such a manner that the device went into a failure mode. Most UAV things these days have some sort of auto-landing logic that will land it safely if it loses communication. I would think a military aircraft would tolerate loss of communications for a bit longer than other civilian devices but then the question is self-destruct or land? At some point without communications you can't just fly in a straight line.
I seriously doubt these things have enough internal navigation to return to base autonomously. My guess is that during testing the self-destruct option was ruled out as being too brash. Ooops.
I would suspect there might be a rush order for autonomously return to base capabilities on these things. The one problem there of course is how do you integrate a returning (autonomous) drone into the flight control pattern at a busy air base. No, I think that problem is going to have to be solved with shutting everything down until the thing lands if you can't regain control over it.
Did the Iranians take over the control frequency and start flying it? I can't imagine even with an unencrypted control channel that this would be possible.
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/newsroom/pressreleases/20111207a.html
minimal info here, apparently they can measure the ratio of Ca/SO4
I havn't seen any one describe why gypsum can't be formed in the absence of water - isn't it supposed to be hard to proove a negative ?
Although read in context it makes sense. Oh well, mod me down appropriately! o_O
I submitted the original article with the headline as "Water found on Mars" but the editor must have thought that was too sensationalistic and easily understood so he edited out the clarify for our benefit. :D
I just know who's going to be blamed for it.
Does the US have robots driving around Iran? Nope, there you go.
Actually, drones like the Predator, Heron, Reaper and Global Hawk need to be manually landed by a local pilot, not sure about the Beast of Kandahar.
A tune comes to mind, what was that band called, "Flotsam and Gypsum"
To be fair, I'm sure they will eventually reach their zenith again. But, it wont be tomorrow or the day after. That's for sure.
Life is not for the lazy.
Clearly you haven't talked to any martians.
The one that speaks to me at night tells me they shoot down unmanned NASA probes twice a week, mostly on weekends when they're not busy planning the invasion.
...but there are a couple of moons with surfaces covered in water ice RIGHT NOW which have liquid water below the surface, so it's hard for me to get excited.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
If I built a drone like that, I'd have it track the jamming signal and "land" on it at full speed.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
Plenty of evidence from orbiters and rovers. Current liquid water underground is unknown. The new fluid channels seen now and then could be something other than water.
Eratosthenes begs to differ.
"Greeks" themselves were often native inhabitants of Asia Minor, Levant and Lower Egypt.
They were also the recipients, refiners and extenders of numerical sciences with origin in Babylon and the Indus.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
"This is not the false positive you are looking for..."
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Perhaps, as is the case in Australia, grazing sheep on marginal land causes the desert
I think you mean goats, which are not a big problem in Oz. Goats eat everything, sheep only do that if they are starving and even then there are a lot of plants they won't touch. That plus the fact the Aussie desert has not grown significantly since the introduction of domesticated animals.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
I'd really like to think, with all the tax dollars going to NASA, that they would consider water (in the form of snow & ice) on the poles as evidence of water.
From what I recall, goats will eat a lot of things but they -way- they eat the grass tends to leave it intact/alive to resprout, however sheep gnaw it down so far that it kills the grass.
It's interesting how fast some of us forget the facts.
First, in the release of Department of State memos a year ago, we read of several countries and the US government admitting to a belief in the existence of an Iranian nuclear program. While the Arab Spring protests have probably trumped it for a time, it's worth noting that several countries, particularly Saudi Arabia, viewed Iran's nuclear program as their most pressing foreign policy issue (over such things as Israel). They have since threatened to develop their own nuclear weapons.
' Second, Iran does indeed have sites that were built at great expense to resist known conventional weapons of the time. No civilian nuclear program justifies this expense.
The International Atomic Energy Agency has assembled evidence of an Iranian nuclear weapons program.
Finally, we have acts of sabotage and murder against Iranian infrastructure and personnel associated with this program. Nobody does that for a hobby. An easy counter for Iran would be to throw open its entire nuclear infrastructure to show it wasn't developing nuclear weapons. Didn't happen.
I can't help but notice that the story you link to has a mind-numbing fallacy in it. Because the US had overflown Iranian space for four years and the author chooses to ignore the copious evidence in support of the existence of an Iranian nuclear weapons program, then Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapons program. That makes no sense.
[citation needed]
sheep eat the grass so close to the ground that it doesn't grow back. this means the soil eventually becomes loose and blows away. hence, desert.
we should just farm kangaroos out there. they taste better and are much better adapted.
The trick is they're studying possible existence of liquid water on the surface at some point in Mars's history. Ice and water vapor are not liquid water.
We call it Arabic/Islamic *placeholder* because thats how we historically categorize civilization, by naming it after the Language or Religion that defined the culture.
And after 650 Persia was part of that civilization.
Those and Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, etc, etc.
I'd say the reason why the middle east had almost an millenia of brilliance, was the writing leftover by the greeks through the romans, good trade and exhange of ideas with China and India(well...conquered them in the 1300-1400 hundred, but hey Mughul architecture is kinda neat) and the fact that the rulers did not discriminate(much) against other religions, which allows for a fairly peaceful and stable society.
Its not that i think Islam and Muhammed is the best thing since sliced bread, and its the 21 century, notion such as civilization is irrelevant, and enlightenment era thinkers are WAAAY more preferable, but how they generally handled non-belivers back in the day made them much more preferable then some other Abrahamic religion of that era that shall remain nameless.
My -1 Troll is actually a +1 funny. And my -1 flame is actually a +1 insightfull.
Their rampant slavery ravaged Africa though, just so that is said.
My -1 Troll is actually a +1 funny. And my -1 flame is actually a +1 insightfull.
So how did the ice and water vapor get there then ... ?
The US Dept of State is a reliable authority of unbiased information and analysis? Christ! You would have made a great Soviet.
Then there's the entirely discredited IAEA citing. This was shredded. Another sad, neocon fairytale, like Condoleeza's "Smoking Gun in the form of a Mushroom Cloud". Oh. She represents an example of State Dept. accuracy and lack of bias, herself.
Unbelievable, fabricated distortions about "nano-diamonds"
Why do you witchhunt Iran, when the US is the evil regime that kills children with airborne shrapnel, on an almost daily basis?
he IAEA Confirms My Nanodiamond Analysis
Dennis Ross Fired Over IAEA Dud
No International Action Following IAEA Report
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
But since the ice/snow on the poles grows & shrinks, then it's already clear that the water exists in non-frozen form at times. To think that it goes from solid to gas instantly without any liquid form on a planet (Mars) where there are dry river beds, would be logical. (NASA's known about the river beds since 1998 at least, see http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap980205.html)
In other news, scientists discover a way to form gypsum in the absence of water.
Needless to say, Iranian civilization ain't what it used to be. This a major oil producing country with such inept leadership that they have to import refined fuels.
Persia's high point was a long time ago.
That's really a sad comment since it's only been 60 years that they were a democracy. If someone didn't see that link coming then they should stop watching the bobbleheads on Fox.
"Mostly Persians, with roots in Khorasan - writing in Arabic."
"Needless to say, Iranian civilization ain't what it used to be."
I just have to clarify that Khorasan is modern day Afghanistan - It was part it was part of Persia, but it isn't Iran. Its a common misconception that people think Persia = Iran. In fact, Persia included (at a time) a lot, of not all of, the ---istan countries. "istan" is the the Persian suffix meaning land. Analogous to Scotland, Ireland.
My two cents of knowledge.. free for you!
RTB is the easiest thing for them to do and it doesn't take much "horsepower" to accomplish. Usually just return to a point and orbit and wait for GC to take over.
The US Dept of State is a reliable authority of unbiased information and analysis? Christ! You would have made a great Soviet.
They weren't trying to be. That's one of the strengths of these memos.
Then there's the entirely discredited IAEA citing. This was shredded. Another sad, neocon fairytale, like Condoleeza's "Smoking Gun in the form of a Mushroom Cloud". Oh. She represents an example of State Dept. accuracy and lack of bias, herself.
Discredited by whom? I won't take such claims seriously unless I can evaluate the merit of the claim.
Probably deposited on dust as ice in the early Solar System and chemically bonded with various minerals. When Mars formed, some water came with it. The rest was driven away by the Sun.
You're starting to sound like a lobbyist for Iran with these silly fanboi comments.
I recommend sitting the next few Iran stories out.
I kind think we should focus or efforts on more terrestrial matters
Uh... offsite backup IS a terrestrial matter.
Even martians had illegal aliens put up their (gypsum) drywall.
We call it Arabic/Islamic *placeholder* because thats how we historically categorize civilization, by naming it after the Language or Religion that defined the culture.
And after 650 Persia was part of that civilization.
Those and Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, etc, etc.
As an approach, that's way too crude - similar to lumping together, say, Christian Levant and Europe, circa 500 CE, on the grounds of common religion.
True, Persia converted to Islam, but their civilization and culture was always very much separate from Arabs and Ottomans.
The Persians WERE the Zoroastrians, and from India for that matter. The last vestiges of the religion is now the Parsi in India. Islam destroyed it.
Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
Sheep are natural grazers; goats are more browsers and will preferentially eat something taller/other than grass. I was always amazed to see them rear up on their spindly hind legs to pull leaves off blackberry canes, apparently immune to the thorns even without upper teeth.
Those Zoroastrians were cool Dudes, they could write with a sword! And they invented wide brimmed hats and face masks so you didn'd get your face burnt off cos it's seriously hot in Zorostan.
A closed mouth gathers no foot.
It's not common that you'll hear a scientist say this, but that is absolutely impossible. It is not possible under any circumstances to form gypsum in the absence of water. Gypsum is a hydrous mineral - it contains molecules of water in it's structure. So even if you took Feynman's trip "all the way to the bottom", you'd have to assemble an atom of sulphur and four of oxygen (to form a sulphate ion ; you're in Feynman territory, so don't worry about the charges), then add a calcium atom (now you can balance the charges if you want. Then add two molecules of water (as atoms, or as molecules ; it doesn't matter) ... and that's your anhydrous synthesis contaminated with substantial quantities of water. And we haven't even got onto getting the ions and molecules into the right positions (also essential for it to be "gypsum" and not anything other mineral).
Where is my packet of dehydrated DHMO? Ah, under the tin of tartan paint.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
Discredited by whom? I won't take such claims seriously unless I can evaluate the merit of the claim.
I don't know if the IAEA report is "entirely discredited" but there definitely seems to be some sketchy stuff in there. I found this link that talks about it (and I didn't really look very hard).
I knew this planet supported life before ours a long time ago.... however, I have to ask, why try to worry about that planet instead of fixing ours....which leads me to believe that they know something will happen (asteroid, apocalypse, etc...) and are thinking about "we have no choice so lets start that journey now...."
I am concerned about this planet that is now dead (almost) and we are trying to reterraform it to sustain life..... it died for a reason (too close to the sun?)...
IMHO, what's sketchy about it is that Iran hasn't provided evidence to the contrary. Nuclear proliferation should not fall under presumption of innocence.
How do you provide evidence that you're not doing something?
How do you provide evidence that something someone claims exists in fact doesn't?
Logic fail.
Even if they COULD, you still wouldn't believe it because clearly this evidence of non-existence couldn't be trusted, coming from Iranians, who you KNOW are just hiding something. When they deny it, it confirms it!
Set the skin-seeking missiles to brown! (Leave them on default, IOW.)
This space available.
How do you provide evidence that you're not doing something?
Allow inspectors free reign. Don't pull Saddam Hussein shell games.
Even if they COULD, you still wouldn't believe it because clearly this evidence of non-existence couldn't be trusted, coming from Iranians
It wouldn't be coming from Iranians.
Set the skin-seeking missiles to brown!
Because only racists would believe, based merely on the copious evidence out there, that Iran has a nuclear weapons program.
If Iran decides to accuse the US of stocking illegal weapons (chemical whatever) and cites the lack of proof that we don't as proof that suspicion is warranted, do they get to say that our denial is not enough, that we must allow in outside inspectors?
We in the US seem to demand an awful lot from others that we would rather kill than submit to ourselves.
Kill Japanese for the torture of waterboarding, then waterboard others ourselves and say it's not torture.
Overthrow democratically-elected leaders and install dictators instead because we want to? We've done that.
Oh yeah, like in Iran for example.
Gosh, I wonder why, after that, they don't feel like climbing in our laps like puppies and learning to respond to our commands?
We have nukes. Iraq didn't have nukes. Iran trying to get them might be the only way they can protect themselves from an unprovoked US attack.
I am anti-nuclear, but I don't think we, as the only power ever to nuke cities, and still with the largest arsenal, have much moral standing to act like the global good guys.
This space available.
If Iran decides to accuse the US of stocking illegal weapons (chemical whatever) and cites the lack of proof that we don't as proof that suspicion is warranted, do they get to say that our denial is not enough, that we must allow in outside inspectors?
So? If they got enough of the rest of the world on board, then they could force the issue. For for whatever reason, the rest of the world isn't terribly interested in whether the US has chemical (or for that matter nuclear) weapons. Europe isn't stockpiling thousands of nuclear warheads because of the US, for example. Russia has been cutting back on its stash for at least a couple of decades.
I am anti-nuclear, but I don't think we, as the only power ever to nuke cities, and still with the largest arsenal, have much moral standing to act like the global good guys.
I don't base it on moral standing, but rather because someone has to. There's a remarkable lack of interest among other parties to do so. A lot of people are concerned about Iran's nuclear program, but not concerned enough to do anything about it themselves. The ones that are are doing things like sabotage and assassinations behind the scenes.
The actions of a government like Iran (and like the democratically elected Iranian kleptocracy which got knocked over way back when) aren't governed by morality either. Iran doesn't have the moral standing to obtain nuclear weapons, but it tries anyway. Similarly, the Iran of back then, didn't have the moral standing to grab the property of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, no matter how sleazy that company happened to be.
Actions (or the lack thereof) of countries don't have moral standing, they have consequences. I agree that there are valid arguments against the US acting as global policeman on those grounds.
"Similarly, the Iran of back then, didn't have the moral standing to grab the property of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, no matter how sleazy that company happened to be."
Really? REALLY?
Come on now.
This space available.
Really? REALLY?
Come on now.
Do you disagree or are you just making noise?
Given that the consequences of that theft, excuse me, returning oil fields to their rightful owners, was a half century of a mix of tyranny and ignorant theocracy, where's that "moral standing" now?