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Why the NTSB Is Wrong About Cellphones
YIAAL writes "After a multi-car pileup involving two school buses, the NTSB is urging states to ban all cellphones and personal electronic devices in cars, even hands-free phones. But on looking at the NTSB report, it appears that the big problem was a school bus driver who was following too closely, and another school bus driver who wasn't watching the road. Why is the NTSB targeting gadgets instead of bad drivers?"
About 1% of the population is capable of multitasking. Only they can focus on their gadget and the road. The rest should stay as far away from that as possible.
This is exactly what I thought when I saw pictures. The buses ran over the kid who was texting. Not one but two of them.
How did he cause that?
Now had the kid been on the phone (hand held or hands free) instead of texting even his accident would not have happened,
because he would have had his eyes on the road.
Its my contention that forcing cell phone out of the hands (some states even forbid hands free phoning) represents a cure
worse than the disease. Too many people fear a ticket for talking, and they compensate by texting from their lap (or below
the level of window). Texting out of sight takes your eyes off the road. Talking on the phone, while still a distraction, allows
your eyes to be on the road.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
It's easier to say "ZOUNDS, we must BAN this THING" than it is to say "Our driver training is not up to scratch, we don't review our training at regular intervals and we don't have mandatory retests for the people we entrust our children to" because that would sound like they've not done their job.
Sadly this isn't restricted to driving buses either.
I am a leaf on the wind
They are targeting cell phone users because when something bad happens constituents expect a government response. While it is impossible to legislate (or enact regulations) to "be a good driver", it is possible to legislate or regulate cell phone usage. Just another regulation that will be arbitrarily enforced...
Why is the NTSB targeting gadgets instead of bad drivers?
Because using cellphones statistically seems to downgrade everyone a bit, so an excellent driver becomes a good driver, a good driver an ok driver, an ok driver a bad driver, and... a bad "barely got my license" driver a motor powered angry bird
"goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
As a motorcycist, I would encourage people to not talk or text on their phones while driving. Whenever someone tries to kill me, it's always the same: a woman fiddling with her phone. However, I'm sure this ban would be enforced sporadically, with no reduction in traffic accidents caused by distracted driving...it will just become another excuse for the cops to pull you over and smell your breath.
Great idea. What if someone in the car next to you has a real need to be on the phone?
The FCC has made these illegal for a REASON.
Dog is my co-pilot.
Because what you want is the guy barreling down on you to be looking down at his phone to see if his call dropped when he enters your jamming field.
Won't end well.
When you are distracted while driving you are not using your full attention to focus on the task at hand, which is guiding about a ton or so at high speed where merely the errant twitch can kill or permanently injure someone.
There are many, many studies in cognitive science that have shown that any distraction while driving reduces your ability to react, your reaction time, and the quality of your judgement. Your brain has a finite amount of resources and you are expending them on paying attention to the phone. In any case, cell phones are currently one of the most avoidable distractions out there. It stands to reason they'd be the first targeted for "banning."
Turn your phone off while driving. It could save a life.
After a multi-car pileup involving two school buses, the NTSB is urging states to ban all cellphones and personal electronic devices in cars, even hands-free phones.
This particular accident is not the reason why the NTSB is proposing this. The NTSB is proposing this because there is a huge amount of incontrovertible evidence that when people talk on their cell phones while driving (regardless of whether the phone is hands-free), the become distracted and drive badly.
Why is the NTSB targeting gadgets instead of bad drivers?
The NTSB isn't targeting gadges. The NTSB is targeting bad drivers. You can put your cell phone in your car while driving, and nobody will target it. But if you talk on your cell phone while driving, you are a bad driver, and you should be targeted.
Find free books.
It's easy. Politicians love to look busy by passing new laws rather than prodding the executive branch into enforcing laws already on the books. If any of the following were to be enforced regularly, the problem would solve itself by either teaching inattentive drivers to change their ways, or remove them from the roads:
* reckless driving
* Driving below minimum legal speed (usually 10mph below speed limit)
* hindering the flow of traffic
* improper lane changes
* failure to use indicators when required
* failure to yield the right of way
* failure to maintain control of the vehicle
* following too closely
* driving left of center
* traveling in the passing lane
* failure to obey traffic signals
. . . and so on
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
from TFA:
4. The absence of a timely brake application, the cellular provider records indicating frequent texting while driving, the temporal proximity of the last incoming text message to the collision, and the witness statement regarding the driver's actions indicate that the GMC pickup driver was most likely distracted from the driving task by a text messaging conversation at or near the time of the accident.
9 The GMC pickup driver was fatigued at the time of the accident due to cumulative sleep debt and acute sleep loss, which could have resulted in impaired cognitive processing or other performance decrements.
And that's why texting while driving is bad, boys and girls. And not getting enough sleep will, apparently, make you stupid enough to do it.
If cell phones are allowed on the road, I'd like it to be legal to allow a 1000ft cell jammer in my car.
That's fine. Since we are granting requests then, I would like to be able to house a jammer-seeking missile in my car. This would have two benefits:
1) Would allow my cell phone based GPS to continue working.
2) Removes an asshole from the planetary gene pool. Now THAT's green!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Listen, most of the people who you talk to think they're one of the "good drivers," who can talk on a cell phone and drive at the same time. It's not like this argument hasn't been used before. I'm sure most of the people you would ask would also respond that they're "smarter than the average person" or "better at X than the average person." NO ONE wants to think of themselves as deficient or average in any manner.
I work at a driving simulator. We've done quite a few studies on distracted driving (including two studies specifically targeting cell phones). These studies have sampled a few hundred different drivers, from all age ranges, technical abilities, genders, etc. ALL of them show (VERY clearly) that EVERYONE is bad at driving while being congnitively distracted. Hands-on, hands-free, whatever--the facts show that if you're concentrating on something other than the task at hand, EVERYONE has problems.
Am I concerned about not legally being able to talk while I drive? Hell no. It's about time.
Do people honestly have doubt that distracted driving such as operating cell phones is not a risk to traffic safety? Seriously? Sure, every accident has a multitude of factors involved and how they count the number of accidents where something is 'a factor' is shameful (if you get in an accident and a bottle of wine in your trunk breaks, suddenly your accident was 'alcohol related'), but come on people, having a conversation with someone not in the vehicle is not something a significant proportion of the population should be attempting to do. Trying to type and read off of a screen is a liability to yourself and others in your vicinity. I know we are all above average drivers, but they aren't and we sure as hell don't trust them.
About 1% of the population is capable of multitasking. Only they can focus on their gadget and the road. The rest should stay as far away from that as possible.
According to published studies, those who are actually good at multitasking generally consider themselves bad at it, and tend to avoid it. On the other hand, those who consider themselves good at multitasking are rather bad at it. Yet another manifestation of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Yes, those examples cite bad driving while on a cellphone, not just driving while on a cellphone, as the cause of the collisions. But driving while talking on a cellphone doesn't reduce the rate at which people do the bad driving. In fact it seems obvious that distraction by the phone makes it more likely to do more bad driving.
Just talking on the phone isn't colliding with someone. But talking on the phone doesn't make anyone a better driver. It's obvious to everyone on the road how very often it makes many people worse drivers.
Handsfree phones should be required; anything else should be prohibited. And any collision or moving violation should cause subpoena of the phone records (phone#s redacted) to see whether the driver was on the phone at the time. If so, they should be found guilty of distracted driving (and perhaps negligent homicide, if they killed someone). And their insurance policy shouldn't cover the event.
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make install -not war
Uh that's a terrible idea. What about passengers? One of the reasons I take public transportation is so I can text. Executives are given chauffeured limos and towncars so they can work from them.
--- Justin Dearing http://www.justaprogrammer.net/ We're just programmers.
Following too closely will result in a ticket.
Also cell phones are linked to more than one accident. There is plenty of evidence that cell phones are a major cause of driver inattentiveness and accidents.
The proposal against banning all cell phones could be excessive, but there are plenty of reasons to be concerned about the issue.
Why is the NTSB targeting gadgets instead of bad drivers?
Because it is always easier to come up with a technological solution (even if it doesn't work) than it is to address the real (usually human) problem.
even hands-free phones
This really illustrates the absurdity of the claim that phones are to blame for the problem.
If you're using a hands-free device, you're just basically having a conversation with someone who isn't actually in the car. It's not going to be any more inherently distracting than having a conversation with somebody who is in the car. So if hands-free phones are a problem... So is talking to a passenger.
"Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
Because cars can only contain one person?
What?
Then they can pull over. There's rarely a case where the person in the car has to be moving while talking. That's what we have emergency responders for - who can be called into action.
Note that I'm not (necessarily) advocating mobile jammers. Someone in a nearby car might not need to be on the phone, but they might just want to be, and are not driving. It's their privilege to be on the phone, that is not overwhelmed by someone else's interest in jamming everyone.
I'm just pointing out that these "need to talk and drive" excuses are BS.
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make install -not war
Public transportation? Fuck off and die, you commie socialist marxist scum.
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
You all seem to be commented as if it's only bad drivers who are the problem. If you think that you're good enough at yakking and driving to be able to do it safely, you're wrong. You're not.
Every other goddam day I pass someone wondering, "What the hell are they doing?" And the answer is always - ALWAYS - yakking on their goddam phone.
HANG UP AND DRIVE.
You mean by making it illegal? It already is dumbass.
I'm for a ban against texting while driving and talking on a cell phone while driving unless a hands free device is being used. Even using a hands free device is still a distraction to driving. My car has it built in and I can admit that when I'm talking to someone it does take away some attention to the road. It's not nearly as bad as holding the phone to my ear.
Too many times have I almost been in an accident due to a person talking on their phone not paying full attention to the road. On the highway it's not a big issue, driving through town while going through stop signs, lights, watching for pedestrians, making turns.. it's just too much to do with one hand occupied by a phone.
I'm only 32 but I can remember a time before everyone had cell phones when a person could drive 10 minutes without having to make/receive a call.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
Rather than single out one thing let's punish people who do stupid shit. People who do things like play on their phone and don't pay attention should just lose their licence for a few years same if you rather eat food than pay attention to the road. Too many people treat driving as if its a right and the government rather let you drive and take your money but instead they should be taking bad drivers off the road.
Texting while driving is obviously a serious killer.
Legislation might not be the answer: I favor a technical solution. Say, devices automatically disconnect at a certain speed from IM/ voice, except for 911, something like that.
But to suggest that texting while driving is not a problem, even if this SPECIFIC story might have unclear details, is ignorant and dangerous FUD. Yes, this specific story's details might not directly support the idea that texting kills, but texting obviously kills, and to suggest that, since this ONE story doesn't support the specifics, then therefore, let's not worry about texting... that is irresponsible and ignorant.
Horrible story summary.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Not to mention that they're the only way to get rid of that fucking helicopter...
So we're banning smoking in cars, manual transmissions, and the handicapped now?
I think that's the mentality that's missing from this whole argument. A risk / benefit analysis. I think LaHood said that 3000 people a year die due to distracted driving. Out of 300 million. Or around 1 in 100,000 . Everybody would be safer if they stayed in their basement, rather than getting out. But there's a whole world out there that's worth exploring, and it's worth the risk to leave your basement. Being able to communicate with other people while traveling makes your life better. That's worth something. Listening to the car radio is worth something. Reading the newspaper while driving makes the ride more fun, and is worth something. Each of these items has risk. Some risks are worth the benefit. Others aren't.
In the end, we're all going to die of something. The challenge is not to make every moment its best, nor to live the longest possible. It's somewhere in the product of these two.
Yeah, I was trying to think how hands-free talking can truly be any harder than singing along to songs in the car. Both remove the occupants attention from driving but you can still be aware enough to function correctly behind the wheel.
Talking on a phone is no worse than talking to someone in the passenger seat. Using voice activated dialing systems in a car seems like a reasonable line to me.
Apparently that is not true. Unfortunately I haven't found a primary source yet, but I've seen/heard claims twice today by researchers that talking with a passenger is not the same as talking on a phone.
First on the Diane Rehm Show this morning: http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-12-15/ban-cell-phones-while-driving, one of the guests specifically talked about research testing the reaction time of people in simulations under different conditions.
Second in this CBS article: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57343541/hands-free-phones-just-as-risky-research-shows/
"Of course, drivers do not have to be using cellphones to have conversations — they talk with passengers all the time. But talking to an adult passenger does not involve the same risk as a phone conversation, researchers said. That is because passengers are engaged in the driving experience with the driver. If they see a danger, they'll usually warn the driver. Passengers also tend to instinctively adjust their conversation to the level of traffic and other difficulties confronting the driver."
Then they can pull over. There's rarely a case where the person in the car has to be moving while talking. That's what we have emergency responders for - who can be called into action.
I'm sitting alongside the road, calling 911 because my passenger is having a heart attack and you drive buy cutting me off.
Now, depending on the power of this jammer, I may not be able to call anyone for a few minutes... life and death minutes.
That line of thought is the same reason people ride in the left lane at the speed limit because "other people shouldn't be driving faster!" You have absolutely no idea why the person in the other car is doing what they are doing. If you don't like what they are doing, you always have a choice of giving them plenty of room to get away from you. Taking the law into your own hands is never the appropriate action unless you are defending your life from an IMMEDIATE risk.
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
I can't help with the fog lights ... but my standard procedure for high beams behind me is to simply "adjust" my center rear-view mirror.
After you shine the light back at them a few times, they tend to drop their brights.
Now, if only I could do something about those people who insist on driving with their hazard lights on when it's pouring down raining at night, not realizing that it (1) means that either their turn signals or brake lights are effectively disabled and (2) screws up your night vision even worse so you can't see the difficult to see lane striping (3) gives people massive headaches which can slow down their reaction time driving. If you feel unsafe driving in the rain ... pull over and stop. (but make sure you pull really far over, as some other idiot might have his hazard lights off, and the person behind him won't see you pulled over, or the lane markings)
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
So what you're saying is that you pulled some random stuff about Einstein out of your ass and are trying to use it as justification for your argument?
Gadgets (especially cellphones) are a menace. Plenty of studies show that drivers who drive while using cellphones are impaired to a similar extent as legally-intoxicated drunk drivers.
See this and this and this.
The kid DID cause the initial crash, not the bus drivers. The fact is this accident wouldn't have happened without the kid.
Roads should NOT be used by anybody but professional drivers.
For everyone else, they should take public transportation or use commercial car services/delivery services. 95% of the people on the road should never be allowed to drive.
A drivers license should cost at least $10,000.
This would be the start of a proper transportation infrastructure. Leave driving to professionals, so the general public doesn't waste 2 hours a day on useless labor like driving, when they should be doing something more economically productive like reading or sleeping or programming on a computer.
Really, it's the 21st century, and we force the population to do hours of manual labor per day to even get to work? Make them sit in a car and force them to drive to get to work? They can't read a book or work on their computer while going to work? Really?
Supposedly he liked working at the patent office, because it allowed him peace and quiet to think.
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
This one doesn't. It's still a distraction, hands free or otherwise, and it has been proven.
Damn good idea; currently the standard driving test does not include three lane highways, which apart from directly outside schools is the site of the most terrible incidents involving cars and fatalities, and it's mainly down to people who don't know what the fuck they're doing on fast roads.
Actually, that's almost exactly the opposite of what the statistics say. There are comparatively very few fatalities on motorways compared to almost every other road type, with A roads and unclassified country roads being by far the worst (A roads 9 times worse than motorway, for example) - both of these road types are covered on the practical driving test.
Motorways are some of the safest roads in the whole of the UK, despite the high speeds involved. There should definitely be a compulsory section of the driving test that deals with them, however.
Here's the 2009 data - you can go to graphics and "sort by road type" for my citations here.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2009/crash/8414354.stm
Can't comment on this particular accident.
However, we do have data in Canadian provinces regarding hand-held devices (cellphones, texting behaviour, etc) and driving.
In Saskatchewan (pop 1 million) fatal accidents known to have contributing factors of the driver either taking on a cellphone or texting while driving were 60 in 2010 (the last year data was available), with 8500 non-fatal accidents.
This compares to 69 fatalities attributed to impaired driving, with 760 injuries and only 1400 collisions.
Since impaired driving as a cause can be made with much more certainty (blood alcohol readings are taken from drivers either by breath analysis or blood tests at the hospital or by the coroner when road accidents are involved) it remains a possibility that talking/texting while driving has surpassed impaired driving (about 20%) as the major cause of road fatalities in that jurisdiction.
Yes, but the stats show the opposite result - far more people die on urban streets (like those neighbourhood residential 30mph zones) and country roads than on motorways, despite the seriousness of high speed impacts on motorways.
Motorways are the safest road you can drive on, but like flying, if it goes wrong the implications can be severe.
Why is the NTSB targeting gadgets instead of bad drivers?
Let's ask a similarly stupid question: "Why are we targeting drunk drivers instead of bad drivers?" When you can answer that question, you should be able to form a pretty good answer to the question above.
the correct answer is to move to the city.
You're somewhat out of touch with reality. Half the world's population lives in rural areas[1]. Moving 3.5 trillion people to cities is not a realistic solution.
Cites also have the problem that, if infrastructure fails, everybody dies. They're not "survivable", in military terms.
And some of us just like the country.
[1] http://esa.un.org/unup/p2k0data.asp
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
Because bad drivers use gadgets when driving and in doing so risk their own and others' lives.
Athy, athier, athiest.
A three year old child was killed and the mother is in hospital after a car driven by a young lady hit them. She had received 5 text messages at the time of the incident, and was preoccupied at responding when she killed the child.
Driving and Texting should be treated as driving as DUI and subject to jail time
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
Studies have shown (for reasons plastered all over the comments of even just this one article) that talking to a passenger is less dangerous than talking on a cellular phone. How would you like Darwin to take over for your family members who just happen to be in front of one of these jokers when they decide to order pizza? Seriously, what is the argument for permitting mobile phone use while moving? Because we can't outlaw every dangerous stupid behavior, we can't outlaw any? You wanna yammer in motion, take the bus (even if I would prefer people did not yammer into my ear while I ride).
No bro, you completely missed the point. He's saying that women are better drivers!!! *ducks*