Ask Slashdot: Handing Over Personal Work Without Compensation?

rsmith84 writes "I'm the Senior Systems administrator for a small trade college. When I was hired on, it was strictly for L3 related tasks such as advanced server administration, Exchange design and implementation, etc. They have no in-house programmers, no help desk software, and no budget to purchase one. I'm a moderate PHP and MySQL programmer on the side and am easily capable of writing something to meet their needs, but do not believe I should be A) asked to or B) required to, as my job description and employment terms are not based upon this skill set. I like a challenge, and since all of my goals outlined since my hire date have been met and exceeded, I have a lot of down time. So I wrote the application. It streamlines several critical processes, allows for a central repository of FAQ, and provides end users with access to multiple systems all in one place. I've kept a detailed time log of my work and feel I should be remunerated for the work before just handing over the code. The entire source was developed on personal equipment off company hours. My question is: what should I do? If they are willing to compensate me, I will gladly hand it over. However, it's been mentioned that, if I do the project, it is all but guaranteed that I will see no compensation. The application would streamline a lot of processes and take a lot of the burden off my team, freeing them up to handle what I deem to be more challenging items on their respective punch lists and a better utilization of their time and respective skills. I'm a firm believer in not getting 'something for nothing,' especially when the skills are above my pay grade."

Comments

Have you talked to anyone?

[Igorod]

Just curious if you've even breached the subject with your boss or whoever is running things? It's hard to say what you should do if you've not even asked.

Re:Have you talked to anyone?

[HornWumpus]

Two facts that are obvious to anybody (with experience):

1. The cost of maintaining the one off custom software will far exceed the cost of buying the canned software. Even assuming competent development. Risk is high.

2. The boss doesn't have budget to pay for the canned software. He won't have budget to maintain the 'solution' hacked up by the new kid.

He won't pay the kid for the software. That's a given.

The question is: Should the kid find a new job if the boss if fool enough to accept the software under any terms? I say yes, such a boss will teach the kid only bad habits.

Re:Have you talked to anyone?

[cjb658]

Does the software have any applications outside your organization? If so, you may want to at least work out the details so you own the copyrights, even if your company ends up not paying you.

Re:Have you talked to anyone?

[Nursie]

My thoughts too, but it could go either way -

"I have this stuff I wrote in my spare time, it would make everyone's life easier, wanna buy it?"

Responses are probably going to be as varied as -

• "Not interested"
• "Sure, if the rate is reasonable and we get the code and copyrights"
• "Wow, you know your stuff, there might be a promotion and more cash in it for you if you bring it in (might be)"
• "That does sound useful, but now we're going to price out the commercial alternatives"
• "Uh, you signed this piece of paper, we own your soul. Hand it over or get out"
• "You used knowledge gained here, of our systems, to write this. Hand it over or get out"
• "Huh, really, you did this in your spare time? So you can do this stuff? Well, how's about your task for the next month is to write an identical (but newer) version on our time and equipment so we own it?"

I have personally seen "Sure, if the rate is reasonable and we get the code and copyrights", but the guy that wrote it was senior staff and had been with the company at least a decade. I have no idea how often the others occur, likely they're not talked about so often.

Me, I like to keep any personal coding and company work in completely separate domains, so that there's no question of ownership. I also make sure that any contract I sign does not try to claim rights over stuff I do in my spare time. I'll sign limited non-competes (i.e. promise not to release competing products during the time I'm employed, this provision to end when employment ends), but not more than that.

Re:Have you talked to anyone?

[gd2shoe]

(Please note: You made a blanket statement, and that elicited my initial response without regard to the greater context. I responded exactly to the statement that I quoted, and nothing more.)

It's always true when the one off app was written by a kid who's working as a digital janitor.

It's usually true. It depends on actual man hours saved / actual man hours cost. It's extremely difficult not to overestimate savings.

He is talking about 'help desk' software. Nothing new, just reinventing the wheel. Another data point on the kids competence (which isn't looking good from here).

That's not entirely clear from the summary. That might be true.

Also mySQL? What happens when an index blows on 'incident'? Never for important data.

That's criticism without a recommendation. What would you suggest? PostreSQL? SQLite? No SQL (pick any)? OOo Base? What is it that you would trust with "important data"? What is the threshold for "important"? What is your criteria for acceptance?

I've been unimpressed with MySQL, but this criticism seems quite shallow.

Re:Have you talked to anyone?

[mosb1000]

Also mySQL? What happens when an index blows on 'incident'? Never for important data.

This is a silly thing to say. All important data should be backed up. mySQL is as good as anything.

Re:Have you talked to anyone?

[rsmith84]

Entitlement or exploitation? It's a fine line. Would you say the same thing if the terms were not monetary but instead based on the barter system and other goods were exchanged? I already have a military family background. I'm being practical. Why should one benefit at the other's expense without exchanging the means for the knowledge and expertise? They hired me and outlined my job description to the T. I abide by it. The fact that I have the ability to go beyond my job scope should be the merits used for salary negotiations. But as raises have been completely shut down for all non C-level people, what's the point of going beyond the scope? And don't feed me any of this greater good or terrible economy crap. The only way to get through a terrible economy in through self preservation and accumulating the necessities to weather the storm.

Re:Have you talked to anyone?

[BLKMGK]

I wouldn't give it to them, I would instead tell them that you've been thinking about how it could be done and would perhaps like to build it - on company time. Or perhaps get them to hire someone to do it.

Here's the thing - no good deed goes unpunished. If you give them this and it breaks or something unforeseen happens they will blame you. They will be upset. they may think less of you for not having built it perfect. They will almost certainly not understand all of the work that goes into doing it right despite documentation and honestly it's possible that while you did your best it might not perform as expected when implemented - then what? Who will be fixing it and at what cost? that will be when you get to experience exploitation I'm afraid. Frankly, if they were very very careful about outlining job responsibilities then that would set off alarms with me in the first place.

That said - if raises have been shut down then the point of going beyond scope is not being first on the chopping block. I'd polish up the resume though just in case!

Re:Have you talked to anyone?

[NotSanguine]

Entitlement or exploitation? It's a fine line. Would you say the same thing if the terms were not monetary but instead based on the barter system and other goods were exchanged? I already have a military family background. I'm being practical. Why should one benefit at the other's expense without exchanging the means for the knowledge and expertise? They hired me and outlined my job description to the T. I abide by it. The fact that I have the ability to go beyond my job scope should be the merits used for salary negotiations. But as raises have been completely shut down for all non C-level people, what's the point of going beyond the scope? And don't feed me any of this greater good or terrible economy crap. The only way to get through a terrible economy in through self preservation and accumulating the necessities to weather the storm.

Let me get this straight:
1. You weren't tasked with or asked to create this application
2. You went ahead and did it anyway
3. You feel you should be compensated for work done entirely on your own initiative and without any request or direction from management?

That sounds an kind of like the guy who walks up to your car at the red light, washes your windshield and then asks for money. Even if the window was dirty, no one asked the guy to wash your windshield. Now you want someone to pay you for work they didn't ask to be done that you took upon yourself to do.

I'd say you have four choices (I won't address copyright or licensing as that's not what you talk about):
1. Ask for compensation and provide the application to your employer if you feel the offered remuneration is appropriate
2. Ask for compensation and provide the application to your employer regardless of compensation
3. Ask for compensation and withhold the application if you feel the offered remuneration isn't appropriate
4. Don't involve your employer with this application at all and then do whatever you think appropriate insofar as selling it on the open market, open-sourcing it, etc.

Because it was not requested or required, your employer is under no obligation to purchase the application from you, nor to compensate you for your time in developing the application, even if the application provides as much value as you say.

If I was your boss and I felt the application might have merit, I'd have you pilot it and then implement it in production if it passed muster. I'd then say, "thanks very much for this great tool. Now get back to work." I'd probably (if it were within my means) try to get you a (bigger) bonus and/or some extra time off and it would definitely improve your annual review, but I'm not going to pay one of my employees contracting fees just because he took it on himself to implement a tool that benefits him and his team.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree here

Re:Have you talked to anyone?

[travisco_nabisco]

Actually within Canada, at least in BC, there are overtime pay exempt positions. Included in the category that cannot be payed overtime is High Tech professional. "The hours of work provisions of the Act, including those governing meal breaks, split shifts", minimum daily pay and hours free from work each week, as well as the overtime and statutory holiday provisions, do not apply to “high technology professionals." Labour BC

Re:Have you talked to anyone?

[mordenkhai]

Really? You think its like a window washer doing the work on your car first then asking for money? Perhaps I misunderstand the current situation, but he doesn't seem to have installed it and the company doesn't seem to be using it already. I think it is much more akin to the guy who I pay to do my lawn deciding on his own time to design an irrigation system on his own time then comes to me and says he has designed it, and he would like to implement it but he wants to charge me for the design time. I can choose to pay or not, if I don't he doesn't owe me the system. He simply wasted his time designing something I didn't want to purchase. Again this assumes that the submitter has NOT deployed the system already, if he has its a whole different situation much closer to your perception.

Re:Have you talked to anyone?

[SomePgmr]

I don't know understand why this is so complicated. Perhaps I misunderstood some part of the summary.

If you've developed something useful on your own time, well outside of any contractual obligations or restrictions, then you now have a product to sell. The terms and conditions for sale or use are up to you.

But if the boss didn't contract you to write it, they're also under no obligation to purchase it. So you pitch it, and now you're over a barrel if they know it's whatever they offer or nothing. If they say "no, we don't have the money", then you're just plain out of luck. You've gambled with your time and lost, unless you can then sell it elsewhere.

Don't like that arrangement? Next time secure a contract with a well defined scope and terms for compensation before you start work.

Re:Have you talked to anyone?

[anomaly256]

Also make sure to read the nitty-gritty of your contract carefully. Many companies I've worked for try to sneak in clauses claiming they own the copyright for any and all code you write while employed by them on the clock or off, at the office or at home. I've had to ask for such clauses to be amended in the past. If you haven't been careful, they might just already legally own the software you wrote..

Re:Have you talked to anyone?

[Dhalka226]

The fact that I have the ability to go beyond my job scope should be the merits used for salary negotiations.

Are you be chance a recent college graduate? You seem to have a naive, idealistic view of the world typically reserved for recent college graduates. Though to be fair, a lot of Slashdotters of all ages do as well.

Let me help you out. Truth does not matter. Should does not matter. All that matters is reality.

For what it's worth, I agree with you completely. That's exactly how things should work, and in the case of salaried employees the employer should not care if the work is getting done in forty hours or fourteen. However, we do not live in a world where the employer and the employee have equal power or even equal respect, and that has been exacerbated even further by a terrible economy. If you operate in the world of how things should go, reality is going to give you a harsh reality check. If you are in a position to lose this job to make a stand for how things should work, by all means. It doesn't sound that way, however.

The only way to get through a terrible economy in through self preservation and accumulating the necessities to weather the storm.

And you don't think that handing your employer something awesome and not demanding to be paid for it would constitute a means of self-preservation?

As others have pointed out, there are a number of reasons to can you already -- and I'm ignoring the part where you come off as a self-entitled twat. If you have "lots of down time" there is a definite interest in re-evaluating whether or not you're needed for the time you do spend working. I won't bring up the question of what you do when you're not doing real work or why you feel that twiddling your thumbs for those hours is not only proper, but that you should then come to me with this tool you made sure to write on your own time just to get more cash out of me when you know it's not there. For that matter, if you did come to me and even if I did buy the software, it would just make you more expendable. There is always a risk of automating yourself right out of a job, and you're apparently not doing that much work to begin with. Any fraction may tip the scales, and that has nothing to do with whether or not the work you are completing is done well.

And then, of course, we come to reality. You come to me, demand I pay you. I say I can't, which you already knew--or should have, anyway. You then...what? Tell me to fuck myself and stick the software in a drawer? You seem very self-confident with your grasp on things, so let me ask you this: Can you think of a single way to get yourself fired faster? Oh, maybe not right away. Maybe not even directly because of it. But you just walked into your bosses office with a sign around your neck saying that you are the most expendable person next time they need to fire somebody. Even in a good economy, few employers would put up with that level of self-centeredness. We're not in a good economy. We're in an economy where there would be a line outside your bosses door with candidates to replace you before you had cleaned out your desk -- candidates who would happily write this software, give it to the company and consider themselves lucky to have had the opportunity. It's sad that being a "team player" has come to mean that you do everything your bosses want and they do nothing in return for you, but that is the reality in the many--and probably most--cases.

You're not getting money for this. That ship not only sailed, it was never in your port to begin with. Trying is only likely to get you screwed even harder. Realistically you have two choices at this point: One, pretend you never wasted your time writing this software. Do whatever you want with it, so long as your bosses never find out it exists. Shred it, GPL it, see if it meets the needs of some other organizations. Or two, walk into y

Career

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the diff between a job and career. People with careers invest their personal time because the reward is you get promoted for doing great work.

Re:Career

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be a manager.

Re:Career

[vuke69]

You must be a fry cook.

Re:Career

[trout007]

Lots of variables here. If you have a good rapport with your boss you can bring up the subject and say that you noticed a lot of time was being spent doing routine tasks that you think can be automated. Give him a business case where you can figure out how much money that software can save him in his budget each year either by reducing downtime, staff, ect. Then say you would like a promotion and raise where you split those savings 50/50 (or whatever) over what you are making now. If that's not possible say you are willing to do the job on a contract basis where you do the work at home and bill them when the software is delivered.

I was once an engineer at a company where we sent work out when we were busy. I saw how much they were spending to get these parts drawings made and I offered to do it for 1/2 the price at home. My boss refused. So I went to the job shop that was doing the work and offered to do the work for 75% of what they charged. Since I was familiar with the job I could get it done very quickly. The job shop accepted because they were getting paid for doing nothing.

In real business it always comes down to peoples motivations. What are your bosses biggest headaches? To get ahead you have to figure them out and how much it's worth to them.

Re:Career

[HornWumpus]

You can tell when they squeal that you hit pretty close.

Well done vuke69.

Re:Career

[mschuyler]

No, actually he's right. It's all about attitude. Fry cooks are hourly, with extra compensation should they need to take an extra breath. Managers are salaried--whatever it takes ot get the job done.

I've been a fry cook (literally), and I've been a manager. The fry cook is easier. The only thing you have to think about is the difference between over easy and over medium and whether you've got the wherewithall to even know the difference. A manager, particularly a front-line manager, has a lot more on his plate than eggs.

Now I question this manager's motives. You don't go developing something on your own time with the expectation to be paid extra. Any company paying attention would have you sign an agreement anyway. If that's what he really wants, cool. Quit and sell it back to the company. But as it stands he's setting himself up for failure.

In my own case I gave it away (a complete accounts payable and payroll system). As a result I got promoted and probably made close to twice what I would have otherwise. Sometimes you roll the dice and hope for the best.

Re:Career

[Lumpy]

The smart ones stop working for the career and start working for the weekend.

Having a Mc Mansion with an audi in the driveway and being $690,000 in debt is simple stupidity.

I prefer to work 30 hours a week, and do what I want when it's time to stop working. I have built TWO cars completely by hand, restored 3 classic motorcycles myself and have seen far more of this country than any of the sad and lonely men I see in the corner office.

They may have climbed the corporate ladder, but I actually raised my child by spending time with her, have actually built things that make very rich guys green with envy, and have seen things the man that wastes his life in an office working for a career will never EVER see in his lifetime. My wife and I travel to europe more than any rich person I know, I have ridden a motorcycle from Endbraugh to Paris.

I have as cushy of a life as the executive. I live in a sane home that even has a real home theater (I built myself) in a sane neighborhood. My home cost $69,000 and is better built than most any home that was built for $500,000 - $700,000 today. Mine is real stone and real brick, not the fake crap that is on new construction. I drive a realistic $9,800 used 2007 honda civic as my daily driver instead of being a financial retard and wearing out a $75,000 BMW or Audi.

In my experience, only an idiot works for his "career" and a "image", a real man works for his family and doing things that make him happy. The rich clients I work for have a nanny raising their kids, and they get to see them every other sunday. They never use the home automation and high end theaters I design and install for them because they are never home and always at the office.

Working on your "career" is a very sad and lonely life, only fools chase that rabbit.

Re:Career

[Pharmboy]

It is quite possible to work more, make 6 figures and still be frugal. Not everyone making a good wage is an idiot in a McMansion, only most of them. Some people work over 40 hours because they actually LIKE what they do. And the money follows.

Re:Career

[koan]

You're the wise one, spending time with loved ones and tasting life is far more important than a career or making a ton of money, for those of you that doubt this, picture yourself on your death bed looking back over your life... what do you want to see?

Re:Career

[fahrbot-bot]

When I was hired on, it was strictly for L3 related tasks such as advanced server administration, Exchange design and implementation, etc. I like a challenge, and since all of my goals outlined since my hire date have been met and exceeded, I have a lot of down time.

I'm more concerned with his statements (above). Is he getting paid for this "downtime". Personally, I don't want to work with people who are only concerned with "their job" specifically. I've been a Unix system programmer/admin for 25+ years at a variety of places. I've always done whatever was needed and helped whoever I could. I may have a specific job title, but my real job is helping the my team, co-workers and company be successful.

Re:Career

[JAlexoi]

Working on your "career" is a very sad and lonely life, only fools chase that rabbit.

I disagree completely with the conclusion you come to. Some people are doing their jobs to do something good. They fulfill themselves, by doing those jobs.
There are idiots that climb the career ladder in a job they don't like, but saying that only fools chase career path is a closed minded conclusion.

Re:Career

[crdotson]

A) I did both.
B) Nobody cares about your story OR mine, so why did you write all of that?

Re:Career

[AnonymousFryCook]

Agreed

Re:Career

[denobug]

Dude I want to applaud your motivation and novel idea. However I can also see that it is possible the conflict of interest and violating engineering ethics written all over the place, especially if the work you perform for the other company is the same or similar work you are doing for the company. Depending on the term of employment but it is pretty standard to waive all the work to your employer unless they give explicit approval.

Re:Career

[unkiereamus]

I'm not wholly disagreeing with you, but I would like to present an alternative view.

I'm a paramedic, and I love my job, I mean, really love it. Unfortunately, I make crap money (Though that's somewhat alleviated by the fact that I'm not salaried and tend to work an average of about 60 hours a week.)

After taking a job as an EMT-Basic because I figured it would be a good study job, I dropped out of university in my junior year of a dual EE/ME because I realized that I liked engineering, but I loved EMS.

I had to do a great deal of soul searching over that decision, since at the peak of my career as a medic, I'll most likely be making less than I would my first year out with a EE/ME, but I went ahead and did it.

I knew that I'd made the right decision about 6 months later, when after working for 3 months, with a grand total of 5 days off, I got 2 days off in a row. The first day was great, I slept in, went to a movie, got drunk, generally had a ball. Then the second day...at about 11AM, I was bored, I wanted to go to work.

The point I'm trying to make is that while you're correct in your paradigm, there are others.

Re:Career

[trout007]

Since we are talking ethics I'll use the real dollar amounts. I was right out of college in 1996. I interned for this company for 2 years and I when I was hired full time was getting paid $13.50/hr. I was newly married and I didn't want to spend 16 hour days in the office. We were a small office where we had a few permanent people and as jobs came in we hired temps or sent work out. This was standard practice. I saw this and went to my boss and offered to do the work for a fixed price at home where it was quiet. I took one job that was being sent out and I bid 200 hours on it at my regular pay of $13.50/hr and I'd have it done in 6 weeks. So fixed price. $2700 done in 6 weeks all to our company standards. He said no.

They send it for bid the winning bid was 8 weeks and I don't know the price. One of the drafters was moonlighting as well with this company and he gave them my name. They called and asked if I would bid the job. I gave them the same numbers I gave my boss. These guys were very nice old Italian guys. He laughed at me when I gave him the bid. He said he couldn't in good conciseness pay me so little. So he gave it to me for a fixed price of $5000 and 8 weeks. So in reality I have no clue how much they charged I was just guessing.

I have no ethical problems with this because I gave my company a chance to let me do it and save money. I also never signed a contract stating I wouldn't moonlight. I also never slacked at work in order for more work to go out.

Re:Career

[onepoint]

I think you are lacking in creative travel or creative tinkering or creative savings) . Nothing wrong with that, you just haven't been taught how to...

So here is your first instruction. spend 1 hour on Sunday clipping coupons. I bet you can find about $ 70 of useful savings every week. ( that's $ 3,640.00 per year )

buy a car jack ( 2 ton if possible ) $ 50.00, rotate tires every month. should save some money over the long term ( tire and fuel ) and you have a useful tool

buy at walmart the cheap soda if you like soda. the saving are amazing ( I drink the fake Dr. pepper which taste the same as the real )

got credit card debit over multiple cards & you've paid them on time ? call them all up and ask for a reduction in the interest rate.

Take a ride to a big Pawn shop or a swap meet or a flea market to find items you need. bought a box of tee-shirts for a 30% of what I normally pay.

I use to fly as a messenger, that does not exists anymore unless someone would like to update me, but I do shop for my air fair and look for odd flights that can be cheap.

what I enjoy spending some of my saving: fun foods like odd cheeses, buy hardcover books that I have enjoyed reading, buying plants and trying to get my roof top garden working properly.

best of luck and hope you get an opportunity to try some of my ideas.

Been there...

[davecason]

...and you just need to eat it. Good things don't go unnoticed, though. It is these sorts of experiences that will separate you from the pack, later in your career. It will pay forward, one way or another. If you want to get paid, negotiate time at work to perform these tasks or don't do them. There are side-effects: once you make an app, you will be expected to support it forever... and likely you won't get any time to do that, either. I would make part of the agreement to hand over the code is that you will not support it.

No budget?

[margeman2k3]

> no budget to purchase one
> all but guaranteed that I will see no compensation
If they didn't have the money to do it, and you were told that you wouldn't be paid for it, why would you expect to be paid for it?

Re:No budget?

[freman]

If you're not getting anything for it, release it under an opensource license - I've had this problem at work where they've desperately needed stuff that they didn't have time or manpower to do during hours, I've gone home and written it. We've come to the understanding that if they don't want to pay for it I will GPL it and they can have it free, with the usual constrains on GPL licensing.

Don't work "for free"

[TWX]

Most organizations are not deserving of free work on the part of an employee, regardless of hourly or salaried compensation. The only two times I can think of that might warrant some kind of uncompensated work would be where either a a company is in trouble and employees pulling extra effort might save their jobs, or where the extra work is likely to result in a better position in the company.

I don't see either being the case in the way you describe it. If you can't do it on the clock or at the office, don't do it.

Don't hand it over unless..

[wbr1]

Remember that if you hand it over, YOU will be expected to administer, troubleshoot, maintain, and improve a system that you did not and are not getting paid for. The only work around I see is for them to update your paygrade as renumeration then add those taskes to your new job description. Otherwise you are in for a trampling.

How dysfunctional

[bigredradio]

Wow, how dysfunctional.

You have no interest in the success of your company and you would hold this project over their heads to get a short-term payoff.

Sadly, if your employer was better to their employees, they might see the benefit it working as a team to make the company succeed.

Seems to me that neither of you have each others interests at heart. A good place to work would be one where I am striving to help the company succeed and my company is sharing is that success. Sounds like you need a new job.

BTW, you have added more work to your schedule fixing bugs and adding features to your "new system". Good luck with that!

And you will NEVER be rewarded fot the effort.

[drainbramage]

You had best enjoy how much it made your job easier and document what you did for use when you interview for your next job.

OH! Welcome to the club!
You will find that we meet most nights, at the bar.

Give it to them

[geek]

You get promotions and raises by going above and beyond and making yourself valuable to the company. If you "stick to your pay grade" then that's all you'll ever be. When I look to promote someone I specifically look for things they've done to help the company/department. I look for innovation and drive. If you took the liberty to do it, you're reward is in the good faith you generate with your superiors. That will eventually pay off big when it comes time for a raise or promotion.

A job title and description is not a contract meaning "this is what I do and nothing else." If you choose to do nothing else, you'll never be noticed.

Re:Give it to them

[arkhan_jg]

And in every company I've ever worked, going above and beyond resulted In absolutely nothing back. Pay rises go on nepotism and to suck ups, not to those actually doing the most or best work. The only person getting a promotion is the manager, and then you get told how to suck eggs by his replacement until he figures out you do actually know your arse from a hole in the ground.

I generally get on well with my managers, especially the ones that actually good at their job instead of just telling me how to do mine, which is about half of them.

I've long since given up believing that all that unpaid overtime I put in to keep the show running with half the manpower it actually needs actually is anything other than a mugs game. but then I'm a sucker for caring about whether I do a good job. I can't knowingly do it half arsed even when I wish I could so I could go home. Case in point; my boss texted me on xmas morning because email was down, and he wanted out fixed right then and there, despite the entire company bring on holiday for another week (private school). And that we have no on call or out of hours support requirements. He pulled my mobile number from the emergency contacts file for life or death situations. Fortunately he just ducked up his iPhone and email was fine. I know this because I checked. On xmas day while on holiday in another country with my wifes family.

My reward? A meeting to discus how we can avoid this 'gap in our defences', I.e. have us do official unpaid on call duty over xmas. When I already had to cash in one week of holiday as I never got the opportunity to use it due to the same manager booking new it purchases during school holidays which is the only time we're allowed to take our legally required minimum.

And yes, I could get another job; in a shitty economy, and what's the point when it'll just be the same there?

To the original question Asker; you did the work without being asked, when you knew there was no money for it. Your odds of getting paid for it are basically nil.

You may however be able to trade it for some extra time off holiday, or something else you want, such as time or opportunity to do skill training in an area you want to learn more. Be flexible, and if your manager is half decent, he'll at least try to chuck you a bone.

If not, you might as well cough up the code. At least it'll make your co workers life easier, and friends are all you have in the workplace, the company itself won't give a monkeys.

And lesson learned for next time. If you're going to do work for nothing because you can, at least do it with your eyes open.

exactly. something stinks to high heaven

[decora]

"since all of my goals outlined since my hire date have been met and exceeded, I have a lot of down time".

"The entire source was developed on personal equipment off company hours"

these two statements make absolutely zero sense when placed together.

if the guy wrote it and actually TESTED it on work time, then he owns exactly fucking 0 of his source code. he is considered a 'work for hire' employee.

of course, there is a chance that the administrators are too dumb to understand this. he could claim he 'registered copyright' (a phrase which has no actual meaning) and see if they will jump.

on the other hand, this is a 'trade school', which could in theory mean one of the diploma mills owned by hedge funds who are betting on the education bubble collapsing and betting against the student loans they pump and dump during day-time tv commercial hours. Im thinking ITT or DeVry here.

in that case, their corporate HQ will probably have some highly educated, experienced lawyers who will be able to run a truck right over any bluffing he tries to do.

lastly, im completely talking out of my ass. but it all sounded so good, right? right?
parts of it have some resemblance to reality, id wager.

What a job

[hawguy]

I wish I had a job where: "all of my goals outlined since my hire date have been met and exceeded, I have a lot of down time."

At every SA job I've ever done, the work never ends, there's always more to do - I've never ended up with true downtime to let me pursue other projects.

And what does this mean: "do not believe I should be A) asked to or B) required to, as my job description and employment terms are not based upon this skill set."?

Outside of union work, I've never seen a job where you can say "Hey, that's not in my JD, so I'm not going to do it, instead I'm going to sit on my butt and enjoy my well earned down time". If it's something I could do, I'd do it. Otherwise I'd ask for training (or books), then do it.

But then, I've always worked in the private sector, never in education or government.

So why did you write the application?

[SilverJets]

Did you write it to get compensated? Or did you write it to help your team?

If you wrote it hoping to get paid and they say they won't pay you then put it on the shelf and forget about it.

If you wrote it to help your team ...streamline a lot of processes and take a lot of the burden off my team, freeing them up to handle what I deem to be more challenging items on their respective punch lists and a better utilization of their time and respective skills then hand it over knowing that you've done something to make your workplace a little better. Next time you have a performance review with your boss make sure it is discussed that you did this on your own time and that the staff are benefiting from it. It will only help your career to show your employers that you are willing to go a little further than expected.

But, if you are one of those people that just work 9 - 5 and walk out the door at the end of the day not thinking about or not caring about your job (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, different people have different priorities) then shelve it and forget about it.

Re:it is part of your job

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. Especially if you have "lots of downtime".

I certainly would not look well on someone that does their job "off the job" because it is not in their exact "work description" then want additional money for it. If you want to be a contractor, be a contractor. If you want a salary, then you are not a contractor.

I've kept a detailed time log of my work and feel I should be remunerated for the work before just handing over the code.

If someone on my team acted like this, I would most likely have to fire them. I wouldn't even care about the code. They could keep it. The entire psyche of "not my job description" just irks me. A salesman, not an employee.

My anecdotal experience

[Tourney3p0]

We had a project that required scrubbing widget X from a file. Widget X was identified by headers within that file. It was absolutely vital that the content referred to by those headers was also missing, so simply looking at the headers was not good enough. People had to go through the file byte by byte to verify it, and it took a long time. No need to get into details (though it was fairly easy), I automated the task on my own time since I wasn't part of that group, and I provided it to them.

About 6 months later, I had a 500 dollar bonus on my paycheck and I was bumped up a step in my pay grade. It was little, but I certainly appreciated it. At no point did I think, "I could probably double dip as a consultant here." Had they asked me to do it on my own time, things may have gone differently.

Not offering any suggestions on what to do one way or another, but that's my experience.

Think about your next job

[cryfreedomlove]

I'm a hiring manager. If I see a resume that tells me the candidate went above and beyond their original job scope to create innovative solutions to old problems then I would definitely be interested. If the resume implies that they withheld good ideas and innovations because "It's not my problem" then I'd pass.

seriously?

[Anonymous Coward]

You say that it "isn't part of your job description" and that you've got tons of down time, but you developed this on your own time and equipment. That all sounds like a monumental cop-out to me. If I were your boss and I saw a posting like this, I'd probably fire you just as a matter of principle. That whole concept of not-in-my-job-description is just so much crap. Odds are very good that you did plenty of thinking about whatever this solution was during your copious down time during work hours, and in all probability, you spend plenty of work time doing things that polish the skills you used to build your solution, even if you didn't actually work on that specific solution at your desk during business hours. It'd be one thing if this was a general-purpose solution to a common problem that wasn't specifically related to your job - then, by all means, quit and productize the thing, and keep the fruits of your labour to yourself. But this sounds much more like a custom solution to a very specific local problem and you are just trying to muscle some cash out of your employer for work you've already performed that has no utility outside of your job. Imagine if every software engineer tried to bill his boss for the thoughts he had on the drive to or from work, or in the shower, or wherever. Most of us do the vast majority of our creative thinking away from our desks. Your employer didn't require you to do the work and you sure as heck aren't entitled to compensation for it. By all means, refuse to turn it over, but as an employer, if I've got an employee that has a better way to do something who refuses to do it that way because it 'isn't part of his job description,' then I won't keep that employee around for long. Just long enough to have HR deliver his severance information, basically. Fundamentally, if you've got copious down time, then you should have been spending that down time automating the task that you chose to do in your off-hours instead, no matter what your job description says. Look at it this way - in the long term, doing that will actually provide even more down time, so it is a net win for everyone.

Hey dumb ass

[Aighearach]

a senior sysadmin should expect to write some in-house tools, yes.

Re:Hey dumb ass

[Shakrai]

WTF is with his entitlement mentality anyway?

I'm a firm believer in not getting 'something for nothing,' especially when the skills are above my pay grade.

Has it occurred to you that doing this project would look good on your resume? Has it occurred to you that doing something "above your pay grade" looks good when reviews come around? Has it occurred to you that doing this will increase your value to your employer thus ensuring both job security and perhaps even increased remuneration?

Go ahead and take this "I deserve it" attitude to your supervisor though. Nothing guarantees success in the business world faster than nitpicking your compensation because you can contribute something to the company that isn't part of your job description. Extra bonus points for whining about your "pay grade" during the worst economy in a generation. I wonder how many unemployed IT folks are screaming at their monitor while reading this article?

Re:Hey dumb ass

[TooMuchToDo]

Are you insinuating that you should provide free labor because it would look good to a future employer? Fuck. That.

You *do* deserve to be paid for time spent writing something if its on your own time; you don't give it away from free unless *you* want to.

I wonder how many unemployed IT folks are screaming at their monitor while reading this article?

Only the ones who aren't any good and therefore have no mobility and aren't in demand. The rest of us? Cleaning up shop (and still making six figures in a recession).

Re:Hey dumb ass

[rsmith84]

You are correct in both aspects. The treatment is poor, the morale company wide is low since the new management team was put in place and I am well under market value for my experience and skills. @Aighearach - A sysadmin is not a programmer. The skill sets are different but are lumped under the general IT fog. I hardly consider writing a script that cleans up log files on my Windows and Linux boxes to be in the same realm as writing an application that handles the hiring process and workflow for HR.

Re:Hey dumb ass

[kiwimate]

You *do* deserve to be paid for time spent writing something if its on your own time; you don't give it away from free unless *you* want to.

He already gave away the time for free, regardless of whether his employer pays for anything. You might think he *deserves* to be paid for it. I think he *deserves* to be paid the agreed-upon wage to do the agreed-upon work, and if he goes ahead and develops something extra, on his own time, unasked, without telling anyone, knowing full well that the employer has no current intention of paying for a package, then he's taken a gamble, and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose on a gamble. If you don't like the downside or risk, then don't make the gamble. Or hedge somehow, if you can.

In this case - if you know there's little to no chance of getting paid to do this extra project, but you go ahead and do it anyway, on your own time, and then whine that you're getting nothing, I tend to think you are getting exactly what you deserve.

Re:Hey dumb ass

[InterestingFella]

He said there was no other people working who could had done it, ie. programmers.

The funny thing is he is even saying that he has lot of down time in work. Instead of being a total jerk jabbering about how his job description doesn't include writing software, but would still like the challenge (and did it), he could have used that down time to actually just write the software and help the company a bit instead of sitting around doing nothing.

Seriously, if I were his boss and I read this, my head would implode. He even admits that he just sits around at work doing nothing. He then says this would had improved everything a lot, but gee, this closely related task isn't in his work description! And that is even without the fact that he then goes out and writes the software, and is now thinking about asking the company if they can pay money for it on top of the salary he gets. What a total ass!

I would never hire anyone with such attitude. There are lots of sysadmins and programmers without work that have much better attitude. People who would actually care about the company and their work. If you want to be paid only for your job description, go do paid consultation work. Right, then you couldn't just sit around doing nothing at work time and get paid salary.

Re:Hey dumb ass

[Tim4444]

As someone who worked for years as a contract developer I have to agree.

It's not like this was a side project with application outside of the company. Even if it was he'd need approval before implementing it in house if he wanted to get paid for it. It sounds like this software was developed specifically for this specific company rather than being a side project (truly on the side) that happens to be something that he could sell to his company. That he was dumb enough to apply his personal time and resources to company work is his problem, not theirs.

If it's not in your job description and you don't think you're paid to do something then don't do it. This is a little bit like mowing your neighbor's lawn without his knowledge or consent and then asking him to pay you for it after the fact. It's also a little bit like that Reader's Digest scam where they'd send you a book you didn't order and then send you a bill a month later.

Re:Hey dumb ass

[dhasenan]

Wow, that's remarkable. Your entire discourse is unfounded.

1. It's reasonable to take on some extra responsibilities. Writing a major application is pretty far beyond IT tasks, though.
2. The reason people take employers is for money.
3. He has an interest in improving his company's efficiency. Otherwise he wouldn't have written the application.
4. The implication is that he gets to go home early because he completes tasks faster than expected. And he states: "The entire source was developed on personal equipment off company hours." This is self-managing one's time pretty damn well.
5. This wasn't mentioned anywhere. You have no reason to hold any belief about the amount of time this person spends training others.
6. He demonstrated his skill set to himself. He's just considering terms on which to demonstrate it to his company.
7. While there's no indication he did due diligence in investigating existing solutions, there's nothing saying he hadn't.

In short, this person seems to be an employee in good standing, and he happened to create something as a hobby that would generally cost probably 30-100% more than he's making. It's reasonable to want more than a pat on the head for doing something like that.

Job Description? Seriously?

[ajdub]

You're looking at this the wrong way... You have obviously done the right thing by taking the initiative in the first place, but now, I hate to say, your attitude is all wrong.

Here's how it works:

1) You get some job
2) You "beast" it. That is... you do what you're asked very well and you take the initiative to use the extra skills you have to wow everyone by changing everything
3) You ensure that it is known that you are responsible for your work
4a) They offer you a payrise or more responsibility and pay
4b) They don't, you stick it on your resume and you get a better job somewhere else with a beamingly positive reference

Do the right thing, make sure there are no problems of attribution and it will pay off in the end. Do not crap up your reputation by trying to strongarm more money out of them upfront. Keep a good attitude and it will pay off in the end. If I had tried to extract extra pay for going above and beyond every time I did so in my career, I can all but guarantee I would not have done as well as I have.

Do interesting stuff, be unbelievably useful. The money will follow, it always does.

Confused write-up, but...

[kiwimate]

If I read this correctly:

* you saw a place where some software could really help;
* you knew they wouldn't buy it;
* you were told they wouldn't pay you to write it; and
* it wasn't in your job description to write it (side note: seriously?)...but
* you wrote it anyway; and
* now what?

With all of this, I'm left wondering why you wrote it? You say you like a challenge, but was this the only way? You further write:

am easily capable of writing something to meet their needs, but do not believe I should be A) asked to or B) required to, as my job description and employment terms are not based upon this skill set

Well, hey there, genius - you said you weren't asked to, or required to. So, again - why'd you do it? What did you think would happen? What did you expect? Your whole story really confuses me.

Oh yes, to get back to a recommendation about what to do: I don't have one. Your attitude is petty and small-minded, and I can't give any suggestion that would fit in with that attitude. If you had some decency, you'd go to your management and show them what you'd done, maybe get some kudos, and use it to boost your resume. Taking initiative looks good. If you had some entrepreneurial inclination, you'd start a small company and market it.

But I think you'd rather just maintain a constantly surly attitude and fold your arms and huff "I'm not gonna get paid for it? Well, screw you". Squandered opportunities, dude. Sometimes you have to take a risk, you know?

Re:it is part of your job

[todrules]

If someone on my team acted like this, I would most likely have to fire them. I wouldn't even care about the code. They could keep it. The entire psyche of "not my job description" just irks me. A salesman, not an employee.

Totally agree. The "not my job description" just pisses me the hell off. I wouldn't want anything to do with that kind of attitude. I would give them a new job description: flipping burgers. There. Simple. They wouldn't have to worry about doing anything extra anymore.

Re:it is part of your job

[SQLGuru]

Keep in mind that even though he developed it on his own time and with his own equipment, he still used a company resource.......knowledge of their processes.

It's very likely that his tool will save the company lots of time and money. It's also likely that it is of much less use to any other company due to specifics of the company he works for. Give it to them and turn it into some sort of career advancement -- a raise / promotion and possibly a job change to one that matches his skill set better. Initiative is rewarded in most companies (at least at that level.....eventually, it doesn't help).

The software is not important

[lucm]

There was a guy just like you at my job a few years ago. He created a lousy wiki-ish software to maintain ISO-9000 procedures, on his own time, and he offered to sell it to the employer, who declined. Then he "licensed" it for free (which was a huge PITA for everybody) and left a few months later to peddle his masterpiece. Last time I checked he was fixing beepers and unlocking playstations in a shitty electronics shop.

On the other hand I know another guy who created a "suboptimal" Access horrorware to deal with complex inventory management. He not only gave it for free to the employer, but happily supported end users for a while. This was basically a POC and later a budget was allocated to create a more robust software; the guy did not have the skill set to write that one but he was identified as a SME to define requirements and provide guidance, and a year down the road he had his own team to manage the inventory project.

Your software is worth nothing, it's your experience that is valuable. My advice: give your code for free to the employer, call it a pilot, and even if this leads nowhere, it will be a good bullet point on your resume.

Academia vs. Industry

[Roger W Moore]

Perhaps the wages or treatment of staff is particularly poor

If a trade college is similar to a university then the wages will not be great but the treatment of staff will be very good. One of the main attractions of working at a University is that it gives you more freedom to do your own things and show everyone what you really can do. Assuming it goes well you can then get hired by industry with a glowing resume which shows what you can really do or you find that you really like having the freedom and you stay on in academia - at least that's how it generally works in Canada.

However with this sort of entitlement attitude I'd suggest the OP moves into industry ASAP - part of the compensation - and expectation - of an academic environment is flexibility and freedom. If you want a 9-to-5 job with fixed tasks and concrete job descriptions then academia is not for you!

Here is how to do it.

[TiggertheMad]

This guys is obviously not a programmer. As an experienced programmer, I try to write code that will be so good, it will solve the problem that I am being presented with, that I may move on to new problems and projects and never have to revisit something twice.

This NEVER happens. It may be days, months, or weeks later but they come back. Sometimes its a stray bug I missed. More often, the client/user has come up with some new feature request that they just cannot live without and they must have.

In any event, the iron clad rule of development is: you write it in a week, you support it for eternity. So with that in mind, give them your code. If you wrote anything worthwhile, they will come back with more requests and then you can negotiate for raises and such. If you do this, don't go for the jugular in your demands. Negotiate small projects and raises. Again, over time, as they see your value you can move into more responsibilities and pay.

Develop an income stream outwith work

[Colin Smith]

Good points.

I would add that it can be worth developing an income stream which is unrelated to your primary work, a "hobby" income if you want. Something you enjoy doing and which can help when the TSHTF and your primary work vanishes. Better if you diversify; as unrelated to work sectors as possible but this is often not possible.
If you are lucky it'll take off and you get to retire after a couple of hectic years.