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Ask Slashdot: Handing Over Personal Work Without Compensation?

rsmith84 writes "I'm the Senior Systems administrator for a small trade college. When I was hired on, it was strictly for L3 related tasks such as advanced server administration, Exchange design and implementation, etc. They have no in-house programmers, no help desk software, and no budget to purchase one. I'm a moderate PHP and MySQL programmer on the side and am easily capable of writing something to meet their needs, but do not believe I should be A) asked to or B) required to, as my job description and employment terms are not based upon this skill set. I like a challenge, and since all of my goals outlined since my hire date have been met and exceeded, I have a lot of down time. So I wrote the application. It streamlines several critical processes, allows for a central repository of FAQ, and provides end users with access to multiple systems all in one place. I've kept a detailed time log of my work and feel I should be remunerated for the work before just handing over the code. The entire source was developed on personal equipment off company hours. My question is: what should I do? If they are willing to compensate me, I will gladly hand it over. However, it's been mentioned that, if I do the project, it is all but guaranteed that I will see no compensation. The application would streamline a lot of processes and take a lot of the burden off my team, freeing them up to handle what I deem to be more challenging items on their respective punch lists and a better utilization of their time and respective skills. I'm a firm believer in not getting 'something for nothing,' especially when the skills are above my pay grade."

143 of 848 comments (clear)

  1. Have you talked to anyone? by Igorod · · Score: 5, Informative

    Just curious if you've even breached the subject with your boss or whoever is running things? It's hard to say what you should do if you've not even asked.

    1. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by Tsingi · · Score: 2

      Well, yes. I'm Canadian, I expect that the laws in the US (an assumption) are becoming more draconian all the time, but I get paid for overtime or I don't do it. Or at least I wouldn't do as much as I do.

      This has not always been the case, I used to work overtime because the job needed doing and I did not care about the money. And professionals, at one time, were not considered for overtime at all. I think that paid off in different ways, but no more. As for what my contract involves, I usually figure it involves what needs to be done, fuck the contract. Job satisfaction requires that the job get done and done properly. If I'm not getting paid enough, I say so.

      The law in Canada is, if your boss asks you to work overtime, then you get paid overtime. It doesn't matter if you are a janitor or a CEO. (I know, I'm using extremes.) I tell my boss that, he is a manager, he figures he doesn't get overtime, but that isn't true, he is entitled the same as everyone else. I won't be a manager, just don't want the job.

      So, if your situation is the same, talk to the boss and work it out. Definitely make sure you come to an understanding.

    2. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by HornWumpus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Two facts that are obvious to anybody (with experience):

      1. The cost of maintaining the one off custom software will far exceed the cost of buying the canned software. Even assuming competent development. Risk is high.

      2. The boss doesn't have budget to pay for the canned software. He won't have budget to maintain the 'solution' hacked up by the new kid.

      He won't pay the kid for the software. That's a given.

      The question is: Should the kid find a new job if the boss if fool enough to accept the software under any terms? I say yes, such a boss will teach the kid only bad habits.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    3. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by cjb658 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Does the software have any applications outside your organization? If so, you may want to at least work out the details so you own the copyrights, even if your company ends up not paying you.

    4. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by Nursie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      My thoughts too, but it could go either way -

      "I have this stuff I wrote in my spare time, it would make everyone's life easier, wanna buy it?"

      Responses are probably going to be as varied as -

      • "Not interested"
      • "Sure, if the rate is reasonable and we get the code and copyrights"
      • "Wow, you know your stuff, there might be a promotion and more cash in it for you if you bring it in (might be)"
      • "That does sound useful, but now we're going to price out the commercial alternatives"
      • "Uh, you signed this piece of paper, we own your soul. Hand it over or get out"
      • "You used knowledge gained here, of our systems, to write this. Hand it over or get out"
      • "Huh, really, you did this in your spare time? So you can do this stuff? Well, how's about your task for the next month is to write an identical (but newer) version on our time and equipment so we own it?"

      I have personally seen "Sure, if the rate is reasonable and we get the code and copyrights", but the guy that wrote it was senior staff and had been with the company at least a decade. I have no idea how often the others occur, likely they're not talked about so often.

      Me, I like to keep any personal coding and company work in completely separate domains, so that there's no question of ownership. I also make sure that any contract I sign does not try to claim rights over stuff I do in my spare time. I'll sign limited non-competes (i.e. promise not to release competing products during the time I'm employed, this provision to end when employment ends), but not more than that.

    5. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by gd2shoe · · Score: 4, Interesting

      (Please note: You made a blanket statement, and that elicited my initial response without regard to the greater context. I responded exactly to the statement that I quoted, and nothing more.)

      It's always true when the one off app was written by a kid who's working as a digital janitor.

      It's usually true. It depends on actual man hours saved / actual man hours cost. It's extremely difficult not to overestimate savings.

      He is talking about 'help desk' software. Nothing new, just reinventing the wheel. Another data point on the kids competence (which isn't looking good from here).

      That's not entirely clear from the summary. That might be true.

      Also mySQL? What happens when an index blows on 'incident'? Never for important data.

      That's criticism without a recommendation. What would you suggest? PostreSQL? SQLite? No SQL (pick any)? OOo Base? What is it that you would trust with "important data"? What is the threshold for "important"? What is your criteria for acceptance?

      I've been unimpressed with MySQL, but this criticism seems quite shallow.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    6. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by mosb1000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Also mySQL? What happens when an index blows on 'incident'? Never for important data.

      This is a silly thing to say. All important data should be backed up. mySQL is as good as anything.

    7. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by rsmith84 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Entitlement or exploitation? It's a fine line. Would you say the same thing if the terms were not monetary but instead based on the barter system and other goods were exchanged? I already have a military family background. I'm being practical. Why should one benefit at the other's expense without exchanging the means for the knowledge and expertise? They hired me and outlined my job description to the T. I abide by it. The fact that I have the ability to go beyond my job scope should be the merits used for salary negotiations. But as raises have been completely shut down for all non C-level people, what's the point of going beyond the scope? And don't feed me any of this greater good or terrible economy crap. The only way to get through a terrible economy in through self preservation and accumulating the necessities to weather the storm.

    8. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by rsmith84 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There is no no-compete or non-disclosure in my file. There is no "domain rule" blanketing what I do outside of my job scope. The skills were not attained at this current employer but instead were amassed on my own time out of sheer hobby. The fact they were not divulged at the time of interview and hire are irrelevant.

    9. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by BLKMGK · · Score: 4, Informative

      I wouldn't give it to them, I would instead tell them that you've been thinking about how it could be done and would perhaps like to build it - on company time. Or perhaps get them to hire someone to do it.

      Here's the thing - no good deed goes unpunished. If you give them this and it breaks or something unforeseen happens they will blame you. They will be upset. they may think less of you for not having built it perfect. They will almost certainly not understand all of the work that goes into doing it right despite documentation and honestly it's possible that while you did your best it might not perform as expected when implemented - then what? Who will be fixing it and at what cost? that will be when you get to experience exploitation I'm afraid. Frankly, if they were very very careful about outlining job responsibilities then that would set off alarms with me in the first place.

      That said - if raises have been shut down then the point of going beyond scope is not being first on the chopping block. I'd polish up the resume though just in case!

      --
      Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
    10. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by NotSanguine · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Entitlement or exploitation? It's a fine line. Would you say the same thing if the terms were not monetary but instead based on the barter system and other goods were exchanged? I already have a military family background. I'm being practical. Why should one benefit at the other's expense without exchanging the means for the knowledge and expertise? They hired me and outlined my job description to the T. I abide by it. The fact that I have the ability to go beyond my job scope should be the merits used for salary negotiations. But as raises have been completely shut down for all non C-level people, what's the point of going beyond the scope? And don't feed me any of this greater good or terrible economy crap. The only way to get through a terrible economy in through self preservation and accumulating the necessities to weather the storm.

      Let me get this straight:
      1. You weren't tasked with or asked to create this application
      2. You went ahead and did it anyway
      3. You feel you should be compensated for work done entirely on your own initiative and without any request or direction from management?

      That sounds an kind of like the guy who walks up to your car at the red light, washes your windshield and then asks for money. Even if the window was dirty, no one asked the guy to wash your windshield. Now you want someone to pay you for work they didn't ask to be done that you took upon yourself to do.

      I'd say you have four choices (I won't address copyright or licensing as that's not what you talk about):
      1. Ask for compensation and provide the application to your employer if you feel the offered remuneration is appropriate
      2. Ask for compensation and provide the application to your employer regardless of compensation
      3. Ask for compensation and withhold the application if you feel the offered remuneration isn't appropriate
      4. Don't involve your employer with this application at all and then do whatever you think appropriate insofar as selling it on the open market, open-sourcing it, etc.

      Because it was not requested or required, your employer is under no obligation to purchase the application from you, nor to compensate you for your time in developing the application, even if the application provides as much value as you say.

      If I was your boss and I felt the application might have merit, I'd have you pilot it and then implement it in production if it passed muster. I'd then say, "thanks very much for this great tool. Now get back to work." I'd probably (if it were within my means) try to get you a (bigger) bonus and/or some extra time off and it would definitely improve your annual review, but I'm not going to pay one of my employees contracting fees just because he took it on himself to implement a tool that benefits him and his team.

      I think you're barking up the wrong tree here

      --
      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    11. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by travisco_nabisco · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually within Canada, at least in BC, there are overtime pay exempt positions. Included in the category that cannot be payed overtime is High Tech professional. "The hours of work provisions of the Act, including those governing meal breaks, split shifts", minimum daily pay and hours free from work each week, as well as the overtime and statutory holiday provisions, do not apply to “high technology professionals." Labour BC

    12. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by Forever+Wondering · · Score: 2

      There is no no-compete or non-disclosure in my file. There is no "domain rule" blanketing what I do outside of my job scope. The skills were not attained at this current employer but instead were amassed on my own time out of sheer hobby. The fact they were not divulged at the time of interview and hire are irrelevant.

      Okay, sounds like you're clear on ownership. Might be worthwhile to spend $100 (or whatever) for an hour consult with an IP attorney to be sure.

      However, it seems unlikely you'll get much from your present situation because they don't have the money, the authority, and don't/won't perceive the need. Most colleges believe in the free market system. They believe they should be able to use their grad students as free labor (e.g. a former girlfriend of mine was getting a PhD in neural networks and the amount of programming she had to do, that was not related to her studies/thesis, for the professor who held her fate in his hands, was tantamount to extortion).

      So, this brings up the question. Is what you've done [highly] specific to your current environment or is it good enough to be productized and sold to other places that do have the money/authority/need? In other words, could you set up [say] a website based company that could sell this, with support contracts, that other companies would be willing to pay for?

      If not, it might be worthwhile as points on your resume [as others have noted]. It might allow you to elevate your pay grade on your next job.

      However, if you do feel you could make a viable product out of what you've done, what are your potential markets/competition? What distinguishes what you've done from what currently exists in the proposed marketplaces? Do you have the drive/enthusiasm/endurance to take this route? You needn't give up your present position to do this, but, it might require a lot of nights/weekends for a while.

      --
      Like a good neighbor, fsck is there ...
    13. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by greg1104 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Corrupted MyISAM Tables after a crash are expected from MySQL when using that storage engine; that's the only sort of incident I can think of here that could rightly be attributed to that database. slashdot converted to Innodb a long time ago though. The downthread griping sounds like it could just as easily be a caching issue above the database instead, given there's multiple layers of that going on.

    14. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by dmgxmichael · · Score: 2

      Further, MySQL's quality in this area depends largely on database engine used. In eight years of working with MySQL I've seen MyISAM drop an index twice and have yet to see innoDB do so. Anecdotal evidence though is largely worthless even in my own opinion, so take that observation with a tablespoon of salt, but as a rule innoDB compares reasonably well to Postgre, while MyISAM is quicker at the cost of some write reliably - and most critically for many applications - the ability make transactional commits and roll them back.

      But honestly, if you write the application correctly using PDO and don't use any MySQL specific SQL in the program then switching database engines should be as trivial as switching the DSN connection string. In that sense MySQL is fine for testing and non-critical deployments particularly if they are kept backed up. But the same must be said for all database programs - all of them can fail, even if their rate of failure in some cases is lower than the failure rate of the hard drives.

    15. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by mywhitewolf · · Score: 2

      I think you're barking up the wrong tree here

      i think you answered the question perfectly, but seemed to give the OP some meaning that he didn't have.

      clearly he wants to know how to avoid getting rolled by his boss, and maximise his profits..

      basically. tell your boss you've found a solution for an ongoing problem to your job, however its outside of your scope to impliment. you could ask for either an amendment to your contract (and a payrise) for the extra responsibility OR to sell the solution outright to your boss. but make sure he(/she) understands that there is no free lunches. basically talk to your boss as if someone else is selling the software and you're just found a good "deal",

    16. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by mordenkhai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Really? You think its like a window washer doing the work on your car first then asking for money? Perhaps I misunderstand the current situation, but he doesn't seem to have installed it and the company doesn't seem to be using it already. I think it is much more akin to the guy who I pay to do my lawn deciding on his own time to design an irrigation system on his own time then comes to me and says he has designed it, and he would like to implement it but he wants to charge me for the design time. I can choose to pay or not, if I don't he doesn't owe me the system. He simply wasted his time designing something I didn't want to purchase. Again this assumes that the submitter has NOT deployed the system already, if he has its a whole different situation much closer to your perception.

    17. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by SomePgmr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't know understand why this is so complicated. Perhaps I misunderstood some part of the summary.

      If you've developed something useful on your own time, well outside of any contractual obligations or restrictions, then you now have a product to sell. The terms and conditions for sale or use are up to you.

      But if the boss didn't contract you to write it, they're also under no obligation to purchase it. So you pitch it, and now you're over a barrel if they know it's whatever they offer or nothing. If they say "no, we don't have the money", then you're just plain out of luck. You've gambled with your time and lost, unless you can then sell it elsewhere.

      Don't like that arrangement? Next time secure a contract with a well defined scope and terms for compensation before you start work.

    18. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by NotSanguine · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think you're barking up the wrong tree here

      i think you answered the question perfectly, but seemed to give the OP some meaning that he didn't have.

      clearly he wants to know how to avoid getting rolled by his boss, and maximise his profits..

      basically. tell your boss you've found a solution for an ongoing problem to your job, however its outside of your scope to impliment. you could ask for either an amendment to your contract (and a payrise) for the extra responsibility OR to sell the solution outright to your boss. but make sure he(/she) understands that there is no free lunches. basically talk to your boss as if someone else is selling the software and you're just found a good "deal",

      On the whole I agree. However, he can't "get rolled by his boss" because his boss never asked him to perform this task. If the application actually had value and the OP offered it up as one more thing he's done to exceed expectations, and his boss was feeling generous (assuming there were funds to be generous with -- which the OP himself said there were not), he might get a bonus or even a promotion. That said, the organization is under no obligation to purchase *anything*, nor are they necessarily bound to pay any additional salary. As a general rule, exempt employees (which it sounds like the OP is) are paid the same regardless of whether that work is in the scope of their job description or how many hours they work.

      As for "maximising his profits," this guy is an *employee*. If one of my employees tried (to use your term) to "roll" me by trying to sell me an application that is clearly directly related to his day-to-day responsibilities, regardless of the location or timing of the software development, I would start the process of replacing that employee. Why? Because the whole scenario just screams that this guy is only interested in squeezing whatever he thinks he can out of the organization. That makes him untrustworthy..

      I'm guessing (based on the 's' in maximise) that you aren't an American. In the US, holding your employer over a barrel like that is usually frowned upon (I'm guessing that barring any laws to the contrary where you are, it's the same there) and, as a rule, the only compensation you can expect is your final paycheck and an escort to the building exit..

      --
      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    19. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by Bastardchyld · · Score: 2

      For the most part I agree with the parent, though I will be more blunt (though not necessarily short-winded).

      You took it upon yourself to develop *something* which makes your (and your team's) job easier. However the only way I see you getting paid for this developed application is so effective that it actually renders you redundant, if it does (and I were in charge) I would not pay more than .5x your salary for the "application" however realistically probably not more than 1K or so, since realistically you can't provide a proper support structure so they would be buying it as/is. If it renders you and your entire team redundant then maybe it would be worth closer to 1x your salary (again lack of a proper support structure really kills the deal at this price point)...

      Now bottom line... You did this for a reason, you got something out of it, be it knowledge or what-have-you. Also keep in mind that unless you have a contract which is VERY clear on who owns what property your state might already have laws which sell out your work-product regardless of whose time it was produced on. Even if your state isn't one where they can claim your after-hours work product, if they wanted to make a play for it then you would have to hire a lawyer to prove that (1) you created it without company resources (2) you created it on personal time (3) you had a personal reason for creating it. The third one might be hard to make the case for since it makes your PROFESSIONAL life much easier which would be a professional reason. Either way you are already at a disadvantage. They already have a lawyer (although he/she might not be the top of their class), you will have to find one who thinks you have either (1) a case and a little bit of money (2) no case and a ton of money.

      So basically as for actual monetary compensation... It is out of the question... Won't happen. That said these are also the kinds of things which show your value to the business and frankly can be used to justify a promotion, assuming one is due and you weren't being a total schlub at work while developing this application in your "off-time".

      Now in the future... If you are developing an application for work in your personal time. Please have a friend slap you. If the application is for work then either know you are working for free or clock the hours worked, this way they can object immediately if they don't want you working on the application in question.

      Finally... When did "Senior Systems Administration" stop including at least a smidgen of development?

      --
      $diff terrorists hippies
      $
      $rm -rf *terrorists *hippies
    20. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by anomaly256 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Also make sure to read the nitty-gritty of your contract carefully. Many companies I've worked for try to sneak in clauses claiming they own the copyright for any and all code you write while employed by them on the clock or off, at the office or at home. I've had to ask for such clauses to be amended in the past. If you haven't been careful, they might just already legally own the software you wrote..

    21. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by Dhalka226 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The fact that I have the ability to go beyond my job scope should be the merits used for salary negotiations.

      Are you be chance a recent college graduate? You seem to have a naive, idealistic view of the world typically reserved for recent college graduates. Though to be fair, a lot of Slashdotters of all ages do as well.

      Let me help you out. Truth does not matter. Should does not matter. All that matters is reality.

      For what it's worth, I agree with you completely. That's exactly how things should work, and in the case of salaried employees the employer should not care if the work is getting done in forty hours or fourteen. However, we do not live in a world where the employer and the employee have equal power or even equal respect, and that has been exacerbated even further by a terrible economy. If you operate in the world of how things should go, reality is going to give you a harsh reality check. If you are in a position to lose this job to make a stand for how things should work, by all means. It doesn't sound that way, however.

      The only way to get through a terrible economy in through self preservation and accumulating the necessities to weather the storm.

      And you don't think that handing your employer something awesome and not demanding to be paid for it would constitute a means of self-preservation?

      As others have pointed out, there are a number of reasons to can you already -- and I'm ignoring the part where you come off as a self-entitled twat. If you have "lots of down time" there is a definite interest in re-evaluating whether or not you're needed for the time you do spend working. I won't bring up the question of what you do when you're not doing real work or why you feel that twiddling your thumbs for those hours is not only proper, but that you should then come to me with this tool you made sure to write on your own time just to get more cash out of me when you know it's not there. For that matter, if you did come to me and even if I did buy the software, it would just make you more expendable. There is always a risk of automating yourself right out of a job, and you're apparently not doing that much work to begin with. Any fraction may tip the scales, and that has nothing to do with whether or not the work you are completing is done well.

      And then, of course, we come to reality. You come to me, demand I pay you. I say I can't, which you already knew--or should have, anyway. You then...what? Tell me to fuck myself and stick the software in a drawer? You seem very self-confident with your grasp on things, so let me ask you this: Can you think of a single way to get yourself fired faster? Oh, maybe not right away. Maybe not even directly because of it. But you just walked into your bosses office with a sign around your neck saying that you are the most expendable person next time they need to fire somebody. Even in a good economy, few employers would put up with that level of self-centeredness. We're not in a good economy. We're in an economy where there would be a line outside your bosses door with candidates to replace you before you had cleaned out your desk -- candidates who would happily write this software, give it to the company and consider themselves lucky to have had the opportunity. It's sad that being a "team player" has come to mean that you do everything your bosses want and they do nothing in return for you, but that is the reality in the many--and probably most--cases.

      You're not getting money for this. That ship not only sailed, it was never in your port to begin with. Trying is only likely to get you screwed even harder. Realistically you have two choices at this point: One, pretend you never wasted your time writing this software. Do whatever you want with it, so long as your bosses never find out it exists. Shred it, GPL it, see if it meets the needs of some other organizations. Or two, walk into y

    22. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by shmlco · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "But as raises have been completely shut down for all non C-level people, what's the point of going beyond the scope? "

      So, knowing this, why go beyond that scope in the first place? It sounds to me that you wrote a program that would make your own life easier. Having done so, you expect them to pay for it, even though writing it was outside of your job description and even though it was neither asked nor demanded.

      And I'm with several of the others. If I had an employee who was always careful never anything more than necessary, or who would never do anything not spelled out on his job description, then that employee would soon be looking for another job. He's the one that's exploiting the situation, and the employer.

      A good employer-employee relationship is symbiotic, not adversarial.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    23. Re:Have you talked to anyone? by Hydian · · Score: 2

      I think that the mitigating factor here is that the program is outside of the scope of the OP's day to day responsibilities. This isn't a small shell script, but a larger application.

      That said, it would be a bad idea to attempt to get money out of his employer for it. That would not be received well.

      IMHO, the best way to attack this is to offer to let the employer utilize the solution as more or less a beta test but retain the rights to it so the OP can refine it based upon feedback. That way, the OP gets to be the office hero for solving a problem that is way outside of his area of responsibility and he can still potentially use the (improved) program someplace else for profit if he so wishes.

  2. Career by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's the diff between a job and career. People with careers invest their personal time because the reward is you get promoted for doing great work.

    1. Re:Career by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You must be a manager.

    2. Re:Career by vuke69 · · Score: 5, Funny

      You must be a fry cook.

      --
      Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. ~ Douglas Adams
    3. Re:Career by trout007 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Lots of variables here. If you have a good rapport with your boss you can bring up the subject and say that you noticed a lot of time was being spent doing routine tasks that you think can be automated. Give him a business case where you can figure out how much money that software can save him in his budget each year either by reducing downtime, staff, ect. Then say you would like a promotion and raise where you split those savings 50/50 (or whatever) over what you are making now. If that's not possible say you are willing to do the job on a contract basis where you do the work at home and bill them when the software is delivered.

      I was once an engineer at a company where we sent work out when we were busy. I saw how much they were spending to get these parts drawings made and I offered to do it for 1/2 the price at home. My boss refused. So I went to the job shop that was doing the work and offered to do the work for 75% of what they charged. Since I was familiar with the job I could get it done very quickly. The job shop accepted because they were getting paid for doing nothing.

      In real business it always comes down to peoples motivations. What are your bosses biggest headaches? To get ahead you have to figure them out and how much it's worth to them.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    4. Re:Career by HornWumpus · · Score: 4, Funny

      You can tell when they squeal that you hit pretty close.

      Well done vuke69.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:Career by mschuyler · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, actually he's right. It's all about attitude. Fry cooks are hourly, with extra compensation should they need to take an extra breath. Managers are salaried--whatever it takes ot get the job done.

      I've been a fry cook (literally), and I've been a manager. The fry cook is easier. The only thing you have to think about is the difference between over easy and over medium and whether you've got the wherewithall to even know the difference. A manager, particularly a front-line manager, has a lot more on his plate than eggs.

      Now I question this manager's motives. You don't go developing something on your own time with the expectation to be paid extra. Any company paying attention would have you sign an agreement anyway. If that's what he really wants, cool. Quit and sell it back to the company. But as it stands he's setting himself up for failure.

      In my own case I gave it away (a complete accounts payable and payroll system). As a result I got promoted and probably made close to twice what I would have otherwise. Sometimes you roll the dice and hope for the best.

      --
      How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
    6. Re:Career by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The smart ones stop working for the career and start working for the weekend.

      Having a Mc Mansion with an audi in the driveway and being $690,000 in debt is simple stupidity.

      I prefer to work 30 hours a week, and do what I want when it's time to stop working. I have built TWO cars completely by hand, restored 3 classic motorcycles myself and have seen far more of this country than any of the sad and lonely men I see in the corner office.

      They may have climbed the corporate ladder, but I actually raised my child by spending time with her, have actually built things that make very rich guys green with envy, and have seen things the man that wastes his life in an office working for a career will never EVER see in his lifetime. My wife and I travel to europe more than any rich person I know, I have ridden a motorcycle from Endbraugh to Paris.

      I have as cushy of a life as the executive. I live in a sane home that even has a real home theater (I built myself) in a sane neighborhood. My home cost $69,000 and is better built than most any home that was built for $500,000 - $700,000 today. Mine is real stone and real brick, not the fake crap that is on new construction. I drive a realistic $9,800 used 2007 honda civic as my daily driver instead of being a financial retard and wearing out a $75,000 BMW or Audi.

      In my experience, only an idiot works for his "career" and a "image", a real man works for his family and doing things that make him happy. The rich clients I work for have a nanny raising their kids, and they get to see them every other sunday. They never use the home automation and high end theaters I design and install for them because they are never home and always at the office.

      Working on your "career" is a very sad and lonely life, only fools chase that rabbit.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    7. Re:Career by MacGyver2210 · · Score: 2

      If you turn the app in with hopes of promotion, the only way you will be properly compensated for your work is if you make it during your on-the-clock hours.

      You mentioned you have lots of downtime at work - start calculating how much downtime you have. Play lots of Angry Birds and stuff. When the amount of downtime equals the amount of time spent making the app, hand it to them and say "This is what I've been making when I wasn't busy."

      --
      If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
    8. Re:Career by IANAAC · · Score: 3, Funny

      AnonymousFryCook would actually be a good slashdot handle.

    9. Re:Career by Pharmboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is quite possible to work more, make 6 figures and still be frugal. Not everyone making a good wage is an idiot in a McMansion, only most of them. Some people work over 40 hours because they actually LIKE what they do. And the money follows.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    10. Re:Career by trout007 · · Score: 2

      Yeah. I forgot to mention the best part. My boss was impressed with the great work the job shop (I) did. So he had me just do the assembly design and layout and sent all the detail work to the job shop (me again). I made lots of money that year. Unfortunately I didn't realize when you are self employed you have to pay your taxes quarterly. I was saving the money since I at least knew I owed taxes at the end of the year. I didn't count on the 10% penalty.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    11. Re:Career by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2
      You forgot, " ... And I have so much free time left over I brag about it in slashdot".

      It is all fine and good that you are learning to live frugally. You see, when you are 45 years old, and you have not managed to get into management cadre, you are going to rely on your frugal living skills for rest of your life.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    12. Re:Career by koan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're the wise one, spending time with loved ones and tasting life is far more important than a career or making a ton of money, for those of you that doubt this, picture yourself on your death bed looking back over your life... what do you want to see?

      --
      "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    13. Re:Career by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When I was hired on, it was strictly for L3 related tasks such as advanced server administration, Exchange design and implementation, etc. I like a challenge, and since all of my goals outlined since my hire date have been met and exceeded, I have a lot of down time.

      I'm more concerned with his statements (above). Is he getting paid for this "downtime". Personally, I don't want to work with people who are only concerned with "their job" specifically. I've been a Unix system programmer/admin for 25+ years at a variety of places. I've always done whatever was needed and helped whoever I could. I may have a specific job title, but my real job is helping the my team, co-workers and company be successful.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    14. Re:Career by JAlexoi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Working on your "career" is a very sad and lonely life, only fools chase that rabbit.

      I disagree completely with the conclusion you come to. Some people are doing their jobs to do something good. They fulfill themselves, by doing those jobs.
      There are idiots that climb the career ladder in a job they don't like, but saying that only fools chase career path is a closed minded conclusion.

    15. Re:Career by crdotson · · Score: 5, Funny

      A) I did both.
      B) Nobody cares about your story OR mine, so why did you write all of that?

    16. Re:Career by AnonymousFryCook · · Score: 5, Funny

      Agreed

    17. Re:Career by denobug · · Score: 4, Informative

      Dude I want to applaud your motivation and novel idea. However I can also see that it is possible the conflict of interest and violating engineering ethics written all over the place, especially if the work you perform for the other company is the same or similar work you are doing for the company. Depending on the term of employment but it is pretty standard to waive all the work to your employer unless they give explicit approval.

    18. Re:Career by unkiereamus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not wholly disagreeing with you, but I would like to present an alternative view.

      I'm a paramedic, and I love my job, I mean, really love it. Unfortunately, I make crap money (Though that's somewhat alleviated by the fact that I'm not salaried and tend to work an average of about 60 hours a week.)

      After taking a job as an EMT-Basic because I figured it would be a good study job, I dropped out of university in my junior year of a dual EE/ME because I realized that I liked engineering, but I loved EMS.

      I had to do a great deal of soul searching over that decision, since at the peak of my career as a medic, I'll most likely be making less than I would my first year out with a EE/ME, but I went ahead and did it.

      I knew that I'd made the right decision about 6 months later, when after working for 3 months, with a grand total of 5 days off, I got 2 days off in a row. The first day was great, I slept in, went to a movie, got drunk, generally had a ball. Then the second day...at about 11AM, I was bored, I wanted to go to work.

      The point I'm trying to make is that while you're correct in your paradigm, there are others.

      --
      I needed a sig so people would know who I am, but I was too drunk to make something witty, so you get this instead.
    19. Re:Career by trout007 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Since we are talking ethics I'll use the real dollar amounts. I was right out of college in 1996. I interned for this company for 2 years and I when I was hired full time was getting paid $13.50/hr. I was newly married and I didn't want to spend 16 hour days in the office. We were a small office where we had a few permanent people and as jobs came in we hired temps or sent work out. This was standard practice. I saw this and went to my boss and offered to do the work for a fixed price at home where it was quiet. I took one job that was being sent out and I bid 200 hours on it at my regular pay of $13.50/hr and I'd have it done in 6 weeks. So fixed price. $2700 done in 6 weeks all to our company standards. He said no.

      They send it for bid the winning bid was 8 weeks and I don't know the price. One of the drafters was moonlighting as well with this company and he gave them my name. They called and asked if I would bid the job. I gave them the same numbers I gave my boss. These guys were very nice old Italian guys. He laughed at me when I gave him the bid. He said he couldn't in good conciseness pay me so little. So he gave it to me for a fixed price of $5000 and 8 weeks. So in reality I have no clue how much they charged I was just guessing.

      I have no ethical problems with this because I gave my company a chance to let me do it and save money. I also never signed a contract stating I wouldn't moonlight. I also never slacked at work in order for more work to go out.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    20. Re:Career by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 2

      Wow, apartment buildings/condos didn't even enter into your reasoning with that, did it?

      McMansions allow for easier sprawl, and all the problems associated with it.

    21. Re:Career by mywhitewolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      picture yourself on your death bed looking back over your life... what do you want to see?

      well, i don't want to see about 20 years of poverty after retirement.

    22. Re:Career by onepoint · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think you are lacking in creative travel or creative tinkering or creative savings) . Nothing wrong with that, you just haven't been taught how to...

      So here is your first instruction. spend 1 hour on Sunday clipping coupons. I bet you can find about $ 70 of useful savings every week. ( that's $ 3,640.00 per year )

      buy a car jack ( 2 ton if possible ) $ 50.00, rotate tires every month. should save some money over the long term ( tire and fuel ) and you have a useful tool

      buy at walmart the cheap soda if you like soda. the saving are amazing ( I drink the fake Dr. pepper which taste the same as the real )

      got credit card debit over multiple cards & you've paid them on time ? call them all up and ask for a reduction in the interest rate.

      Take a ride to a big Pawn shop or a swap meet or a flea market to find items you need. bought a box of tee-shirts for a 30% of what I normally pay.

      I use to fly as a messenger, that does not exists anymore unless someone would like to update me, but I do shop for my air fair and look for odd flights that can be cheap.

      what I enjoy spending some of my saving: fun foods like odd cheeses, buy hardcover books that I have enjoyed reading, buying plants and trying to get my roof top garden working properly.

      best of luck and hope you get an opportunity to try some of my ideas.

      --
      if you see me, smile and say hello.
    23. Re:Career by Xest · · Score: 2

      Agreed. I chase a career because to me chasing a career is constantly increasing my knowledge, the more and more I know about computing, software development, and maths, the further my career goes.

      I never realised that wanting to increase my knowledge, and enjoy the benefits of getting compensated for having more knowledge in a subject area, and being able to help colleagues by using that knowledge made me a fool and caused me to automatically have a sad and lonely life. I'll have to let my girlfriend of 7 years know this, as I was under the impression we'd been really happy all this time.

      Or perhaps the reality is that not being bothered about learning anything new, and sitting around in a 30hr a week dead end job, makes you the sort of person who would make broad and ignorant generalisations about everyone else and how they should be living their lives as if there's only one way to achieve happiness. I know which one I'll be placing my bets on.

      Learning, is, for many, extremely fulfilling, and having a career most certainly can be as simple as enjoying learning, and applying what you have learnt in ways that impress the boss, impress potential employers and so forth. If you like learning but can't or don't apply what you learn in your work, then you're missing a trick and I'd argue the fundamental problem isn't that you don't want a career, but that you picked the wrong career and are hence stuck in one you're not bothered about progressing in.

      Having a career doesn't necessarily mean striving to be the boring man in the suit at the top of the company, it can instead be as exciting as striving to be the head of R&D at an important tech company where you get to literally drive the direction of technology research, and hence to some degree, technology itself. It can be about working to achieve a role where you have staff under you such that you can work on things you'd never be able to do single handedly in your spare time, but would love to try, and getting paid decently in the process to boot. Again, I don't really see what's so bad about that. It sure as hell sounds far more attractive to me than being stuck in a 30hr dead end job, with a $69,000 house, a $9,000 car, and with the need to ignorantly proclaim everyone who doesn't live that lifestyle is unhappy.

      Really, this discussion highlights the two different types of people in the working world - the go-getters who work hard to get and do what they want, and the layabouts who just want an easy lifestyle. Neither is necessarily inherently bad, but I must admit the entitlement attitude some layabouts have can be frustrating - if you want an easy lifestyle and so forth that's fine, but don't, as with the guy in the summary, think for one second that you're entitled to anything. Through my life I've personally been career oriented, and it's given me a massive headstart in life, I worked hard on my career when I was young and went a long way, and that's meant I can now be more of a layabout whilst enjoying the fruits of previously being a go-getter. I can be a layabout in a far higher paid, far more interesting job. I can have the $500,000 house with no mortgage as I bought and paid it off early through hard work, and believe it or not, my house is even made of brick! I don't have the BMW or Audi because cars aren't really my thing, I'm content with my crappy Peugeot, but I do have a 288sq ft heated greenhouse, because growing tropical plants is my thing. A hobby I could never enjoy had I not been career oriented and got myself toa point where I could afford such a thing.

      My advice to the guy in the summary? Nothing in life comes for free, if you want to be a software developer, quit your job and find an employer that will pay you for that. Sometimes in life you reach a point with an employer where if you don't do something, your career will suffer, and if you do do something, your career will thrive long term, but you will feel put out short term. In some cases, you can be put out and not go anywhere sure, but fundamentally t

    24. Re:Career by Pharmboy · · Score: 2

      What do you spend your money on then?

      Money not spent buys security, and eventually, whatever is left over can be given to a good cause. It means I won't be dependent on Social Security, my wife won't be straddled with bills if I die early, I won't be in poverty if I can't keep working until I'm 70 due to health or other issues. And money not spent isn't "wasted". I don't have kids, but anything left over won't just sit there, it will go to a good cause.

      And if someone wants to blow their money on frivolities, so be it. It is their money, and even blowing money makes jobs, as someone has to build the crap they buy. I just choose to live a simpler existence than my wallet would allow. Short term sacrifice for long term gains: stability and security.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
  3. Been there... by davecason · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...and you just need to eat it. Good things don't go unnoticed, though. It is these sorts of experiences that will separate you from the pack, later in your career. It will pay forward, one way or another. If you want to get paid, negotiate time at work to perform these tasks or don't do them. There are side-effects: once you make an app, you will be expected to support it forever... and likely you won't get any time to do that, either. I would make part of the agreement to hand over the code is that you will not support it.

    1. Re:Been there... by cjb658 · · Score: 2

      Not a bad idea - use the program as justification when you ask for a raise.

      Also, if you ever leave the company, you can get them to pay you as a contractor to support it and make a few bucks on the side.

    2. Re:Been there... by HiThere · · Score: 2

      Good things don't go unnoticed, but that doesn't guarantee what the result of the notice will be. There've been times when my boss saw that and just thought "Sucker!", but another boss in a similar situation gave a fair reward. It all depends. And it depends more on the personality of the boss than on the quality of your relationship.

      It's a gamble, but OTOH, what is it you want to do? I generally liked to work on a challenging project. (Still do, but I'm retired now, so I choose my own projects.) If you do it on you own time, on your own equipment, and are satisfied that you own it, you might GPL the code. A good project can be good PR. (But you'd better be sure it's a good project!)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  4. it is part of your job by osssmkatz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You should do what's required to make your stuff work. Ask for credit later. Document it and do it right. Writing scripts is part of the job, and reducing burden for your team is also part of your job.

    1. Re:it is part of your job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Exactly. Especially if you have "lots of downtime".

      I certainly would not look well on someone that does their job "off the job" because it is not in their exact "work description" then want additional money for it. If you want to be a contractor, be a contractor. If you want a salary, then you are not a contractor.

      I've kept a detailed time log of my work and feel I should be remunerated for the work before just handing over the code.

      If someone on my team acted like this, I would most likely have to fire them. I wouldn't even care about the code. They could keep it. The entire psyche of "not my job description" just irks me. A salesman, not an employee.

    2. Re:it is part of your job by todrules · · Score: 4, Funny

      If someone on my team acted like this, I would most likely have to fire them. I wouldn't even care about the code. They could keep it. The entire psyche of "not my job description" just irks me. A salesman, not an employee.

      Totally agree. The "not my job description" just pisses me the hell off. I wouldn't want anything to do with that kind of attitude. I would give them a new job description: flipping burgers. There. Simple. They wouldn't have to worry about doing anything extra anymore.

    3. Re:it is part of your job by SQLGuru · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Keep in mind that even though he developed it on his own time and with his own equipment, he still used a company resource.......knowledge of their processes.

      It's very likely that his tool will save the company lots of time and money. It's also likely that it is of much less use to any other company due to specifics of the company he works for. Give it to them and turn it into some sort of career advancement -- a raise / promotion and possibly a job change to one that matches his skill set better. Initiative is rewarded in most companies (at least at that level.....eventually, it doesn't help).

  5. No budget? by margeman2k3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    > no budget to purchase one
    > all but guaranteed that I will see no compensation
    If they didn't have the money to do it, and you were told that you wouldn't be paid for it, why would you expect to be paid for it?

    1. Re:No budget? by freman · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If you're not getting anything for it, release it under an opensource license - I've had this problem at work where they've desperately needed stuff that they didn't have time or manpower to do during hours, I've gone home and written it. We've come to the understanding that if they don't want to pay for it I will GPL it and they can have it free, with the usual constrains on GPL licensing.

    2. Re:No budget? by Macgyver7017 · · Score: 2

      "The entire source was developed on personal equipment off company hours." Why doesn't he have the rights to it?

  6. Don't work "for free" by TWX · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Most organizations are not deserving of free work on the part of an employee, regardless of hourly or salaried compensation. The only two times I can think of that might warrant some kind of uncompensated work would be where either a a company is in trouble and employees pulling extra effort might save their jobs, or where the extra work is likely to result in a better position in the company.

    I don't see either being the case in the way you describe it. If you can't do it on the clock or at the office, don't do it.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    1. Re:Don't work "for free" by JoeMerchant · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You shouldn't be too hung up on job description and title. You are being paid for your time at the office, if you can write the apps on the clock, then consider them part of your job and a demonstration of why you should be promoted when a position becomes available, or retained when layoffs come around.

      Oh, and don't write anything that makes your position redundant, that's just... the mark of a non-critical thinker. If you are writing apps off the clock, don't write them for work, find some other interest in your life and write apps for that - if you don't have other interests outside of the crappy job you describe, I'd consider getting out and living a life a much higher priority than trolling /. for advice on how to get paid for writing software that nobody asked for.

    2. Re:Don't work "for free" by iamhassi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Most organizations are not deserving of free work on the part of an employee, regardless of hourly or salaried compensation. The only two times I can think of that might warrant some kind of uncompensated work would be where either a a company is in trouble and employees pulling extra effort might save their jobs, or where the extra work is likely to result in a better position in the company.

      I don't see either being the case in the way you describe it. If you can't do it on the clock or at the office, don't do it.

      My current position requires me to do some repetitive tasks. Rather than spend several minutes a day doing the same thing again and again I wrote some small VB scripts that can do the work while I grab coffee. I was not compensated for this.

      I wrote the code for a few reasons:
      a) saves me a lot of time
      b) I'm the only one permitted to use it since it's not officially "approved" (yet)
      c) I have it expire after a month. Doing this means no one can use it after the date unless they change the system time but no one in our department is given admin rights (shocker, I know)
      d) if i'm ever fired or quit they'll just wipe my PC and the program will be lost anyway.
      e) the program startup intro screen has my name and personal email address if they ever need to contact me to discuss purchasing

      If you can write something that saves you time I say go for it, but make it expire, or at least nag, and remember to include methods of contacting you.

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    3. Re:Don't work "for free" by TBBle · · Score: 2

      Oh, and don't write anything that makes your position redundant, that's just... the mark of a non-critical thinker.

      I disagree wholeheartedly. If your position can be made redundant by software, I can't see any way it'd be satisfying to remain there long-term if you've got the skills and interest in automating it. And it makes it so much easier to leave when you're fed up with it if you can be replaced by a shell script or two. Particularly if you've done the automation before-hand, so you don't spend your final fortnight desperately throwing together a custom software stack because you don't have time to download and evaluate existing solutions.

      I've had a couple of jobs where I could have been replaced by software, but didn't have the time to write the software so I was unable to leave without feeling bad about doing so. I still left, but have since always tried to ensure that as much of my job as possible is automated and could be done by someone else so I don't have to do it for the rest of the company's life, or worse, find someone who _is_ willing to sit there and act as the slowest part of a pipeline.

      It's the same reason I always use the self-service checkout at supermarkets. Why would I stand there and watch someone else scan my groceries for me when I can do it myself in half the space for a third again as much time, potentially freeing up that person to go do something productive.

      --
      Paul "TBBle" Hampson
      Paul.Hampson@Pobox.Com
  7. Got another job lined up? by couchslug · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Got another job lined up? Trade colleges know working there beats the crap out of a real job (especially the cake schedule, we worked four-day weeks) and they can get replacements all day.

    I'd use the app, and not disclose shit about it. If you get laid off they can write a support contract if they need to. Heck, customize everything you can to your benefit while you are there. All users want is an absence of hassle.

    Hoard knowledge, make YOUR job smoother, look busy, and remember you are in an ACADEMIC environment. Play that game and don't pretend you aren't in a trade school.

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    1. Re:Got another job lined up? by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

      I'd use the app, and not disclose shit about it. If you get laid off they can write a support contract if they need to.

      If you've got that much time on your hands, you might just code it to periodically "expire..." since they didn't pay you to make it in the first place, they certainly shouldn't have a say in how it does, or doesn't work. Just don't expect to use them as reference for future employment.

    2. Re:Got another job lined up? by HiThere · · Score: 2

      Periodically expiring is easy, and would hardly take any time at all to code. Obfuscating it would only be very difficult, if the code revealed source (like Perl or Python usually do). Even then....

      But for a compiled language, that's a trivial effort, unless your language doesn't give you access to the file system. And I think even JavaScript gives you *that* much access.

      But if you don't own the rights to the code, this might put you in a bit of an uncertain legal position. It could be seen as analogous to those programmers that automatically lock their employer's systems after they are fired. (OTOH, if they're going to just wipe the system anyway, you'll never get caught...but they'll also never see your work, so why bother to leave a means of contact.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  8. Don't hand it over unless.. by wbr1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Remember that if you hand it over, YOU will be expected to administer, troubleshoot, maintain, and improve a system that you did not and are not getting paid for. The only work around I see is for them to update your paygrade as renumeration then add those taskes to your new job description. Otherwise you are in for a trampling.

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
  9. Get it in writing by techno-vampire · · Score: 3, Informative

    Before you actually start coding, discuss this with your boss and find out if he/she wants something like this badly enough to pay you for it. If so, negotiate the terms under which you'll be working just like you would if you were an outside consultant. Once you have an agreement, get it in writing and make sure it's signed by somebody with the authority to sign things like that so there's no chance of misunderstandings later, or room for them to wiggle out of paying you properly later on. If they're not interested in paying you, or in putting the agreement in writing, you shouldn't be interested in doing the work.

    --
    Good, inexpensive web hosting
    1. Re:Get it in writing by Leuf · · Score: 2

      "Before you actually start coding" Yeah, except you missed the part where the submitter said he was explicitly told he wouldn't be paid for it but has already done it anyway. I have no idea what the problem is here. If they cared about being paid then they shouldn't have done the work without an agreement to be paid. Having done the work, they can either withhold it out of spite of their own stupidity or use it.

    2. Re:Get it in writing by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 2

      Why does anyone do personal programming? To save time. I would have written it regardless of the emplyoment contract. And I would have found myself in the same boat.

      I would have done the work with or without an agreement to be paid, because I solve problems with software. It bothers me when people do things manually instead of via easily scripted software.

      I don't feel an obligation to the company, I feel one to myself. And I do what I need to do.

      I know plenty of admins who have scripted and automated their tasks, or someone else's. A good employer recognizes contributions, mine does. Not financially necessarily, but in a way that gets your name out there. Scripting logon so that drives get mapped automatically, or with minimal input. Sorting through logs for whatever, watching for whatever. VBScript, PowerShell, BaSH, CSH, these are done because they are needed.

      Few people get paid for the additional programming they do to make their job easier. I wrote a T-SQL script to generate insert/update ASP code from the database metadata. One day, things stopped working and I had to make a manual entry page for some automated tables. 15 minutes later I had something functional, and within an hour I had something tested and documented enough for people to use. It helped, and I never got paid for it. I did it because I hate typing. Although you'd never know by my comments.

      Having done the work, they still have the option of suggesting it. If it's not implemented, or if the URLs / entry points aren't known, there is room to bargain. But you can't expect much, at least immediately.

  10. How dysfunctional by bigredradio · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Wow, how dysfunctional.

    You have no interest in the success of your company and you would hold this project over their heads to get a short-term payoff.

    Sadly, if your employer was better to their employees, they might see the benefit it working as a team to make the company succeed.

    Seems to me that neither of you have each others interests at heart. A good place to work would be one where I am striving to help the company succeed and my company is sharing is that success. Sounds like you need a new job.

    BTW, you have added more work to your schedule fixing bugs and adding features to your "new system". Good luck with that!

    1. Re:How dysfunctional by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      Not really, this is a school of higher education, and Adam Smith said that competition isn't effective on Universities and like institutions. He has an appendix on it.

  11. Something unclear by rhizome · · Score: 2

    Which is it, did you have a lot of downtime or did you write the app entirely on your personal time and equipment? Did you use your work time to test and/or determine features?

    --
    When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
  12. And you will NEVER be rewarded fot the effort. by drainbramage · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You had best enjoy how much it made your job easier and document what you did for use when you interview for your next job.

    OH! Welcome to the club!
    You will find that we meet most nights, at the bar.

    --
    No brain, no pain.
  13. Re:publish it? by rubycodez · · Score: 2

    just need to add a couple important steps and you won't need a lawyer nor have any worries. Use qemu with option to set bios clock. Create a virtual machine running at time before you had present job. Be sure your app can run under versions of interpreter, etc. in existence at that time. Make tarball of your wares with the pre-job date and containing pre-job dated copyright notice. Now you distribute that, and if employer makes a stink, just say it was open source software you wrote before you started job, it just happens to fit their needs and they should be thankful you let them use it.

  14. Give it to them by geek · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You get promotions and raises by going above and beyond and making yourself valuable to the company. If you "stick to your pay grade" then that's all you'll ever be. When I look to promote someone I specifically look for things they've done to help the company/department. I look for innovation and drive. If you took the liberty to do it, you're reward is in the good faith you generate with your superiors. That will eventually pay off big when it comes time for a raise or promotion.

    A job title and description is not a contract meaning "this is what I do and nothing else." If you choose to do nothing else, you'll never be noticed.

    1. Re:Give it to them by arkhan_jg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And in every company I've ever worked, going above and beyond resulted In absolutely nothing back. Pay rises go on nepotism and to suck ups, not to those actually doing the most or best work. The only person getting a promotion is the manager, and then you get told how to suck eggs by his replacement until he figures out you do actually know your arse from a hole in the ground.

      I generally get on well with my managers, especially the ones that actually good at their job instead of just telling me how to do mine, which is about half of them.

      I've long since given up believing that all that unpaid overtime I put in to keep the show running with half the manpower it actually needs actually is anything other than a mugs game. but then I'm a sucker for caring about whether I do a good job. I can't knowingly do it half arsed even when I wish I could so I could go home. Case in point; my boss texted me on xmas morning because email was down, and he wanted out fixed right then and there, despite the entire company bring on holiday for another week (private school). And that we have no on call or out of hours support requirements. He pulled my mobile number from the emergency contacts file for life or death situations. Fortunately he just ducked up his iPhone and email was fine. I know this because I checked. On xmas day while on holiday in another country with my wifes family.

      My reward? A meeting to discus how we can avoid this 'gap in our defences', I.e. have us do official unpaid on call duty over xmas. When I already had to cash in one week of holiday as I never got the opportunity to use it due to the same manager booking new it purchases during school holidays which is the only time we're allowed to take our legally required minimum.

      And yes, I could get another job; in a shitty economy, and what's the point when it'll just be the same there?

      To the original question Asker; you did the work without being asked, when you knew there was no money for it. Your odds of getting paid for it are basically nil.

      You may however be able to trade it for some extra time off holiday, or something else you want, such as time or opportunity to do skill training in an area you want to learn more. Be flexible, and if your manager is half decent, he'll at least try to chuck you a bone.

      If not, you might as well cough up the code. At least it'll make your co workers life easier, and friends are all you have in the workplace, the company itself won't give a monkeys.

      And lesson learned for next time. If you're going to do work for nothing because you can, at least do it with your eyes open.

      --
      Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
  15. "You have a lot of downtime" by loteck · · Score: 2

    Happens to the best of us, in fact we tend to work ourselves right out of these in-house positions.

    You should probably find something else for yourself to do (say, like, implementing your side project), or start looking for other jobs. If they have no budget to implement core systems, they certainly have no budget to hang on to Sys Admins with "a lot of downtime".

  16. exactly. something stinks to high heaven by decora · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "since all of my goals outlined since my hire date have been met and exceeded, I have a lot of down time".

    "The entire source was developed on personal equipment off company hours"

    these two statements make absolutely zero sense when placed together.

    if the guy wrote it and actually TESTED it on work time, then he owns exactly fucking 0 of his source code. he is considered a 'work for hire' employee.

    of course, there is a chance that the administrators are too dumb to understand this. he could claim he 'registered copyright' (a phrase which has no actual meaning) and see if they will jump.

    on the other hand, this is a 'trade school', which could in theory mean one of the diploma mills owned by hedge funds who are betting on the education bubble collapsing and betting against the student loans they pump and dump during day-time tv commercial hours. Im thinking ITT or DeVry here.

    in that case, their corporate HQ will probably have some highly educated, experienced lawyers who will be able to run a truck right over any bluffing he tries to do.

    lastly, im completely talking out of my ass. but it all sounded so good, right? right?
    parts of it have some resemblance to reality, id wager.

    1. Re:exactly. something stinks to high heaven by ulricr · · Score: 2

      all true. What struck me : even if he claims he did it on his own equipment, he must have tested or even implemented it using data files from work. its own by the company he works for, it's not personal work unrelated to work

  17. What a job by hawguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I wish I had a job where: "all of my goals outlined since my hire date have been met and exceeded, I have a lot of down time."

    At every SA job I've ever done, the work never ends, there's always more to do - I've never ended up with true downtime to let me pursue other projects.

    And what does this mean: "do not believe I should be A) asked to or B) required to, as my job description and employment terms are not based upon this skill set."?

    Outside of union work, I've never seen a job where you can say "Hey, that's not in my JD, so I'm not going to do it, instead I'm going to sit on my butt and enjoy my well earned down time". If it's something I could do, I'd do it. Otherwise I'd ask for training (or books), then do it.

    But then, I've always worked in the private sector, never in education or government.

  18. So why did you write the application? by SilverJets · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Did you write it to get compensated? Or did you write it to help your team?

    If you wrote it hoping to get paid and they say they won't pay you then put it on the shelf and forget about it.

    If you wrote it to help your team ...streamline a lot of processes and take a lot of the burden off my team, freeing them up to handle what I deem to be more challenging items on their respective punch lists and a better utilization of their time and respective skills then hand it over knowing that you've done something to make your workplace a little better. Next time you have a performance review with your boss make sure it is discussed that you did this on your own time and that the staff are benefiting from it. It will only help your career to show your employers that you are willing to go a little further than expected.

    But, if you are one of those people that just work 9 - 5 and walk out the door at the end of the day not thinking about or not caring about your job (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, different people have different priorities) then shelve it and forget about it.

  19. Personal anecdote by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I got my job by going above and beyond, programming when I was supposed to be simply a walking reference book. It made my job faster, and more available. The more I automated, the more time I had to automate more things.

    I got hired on a help desk team, 12 or so people like me who just wrote stuff and gradually became a recognized team. The team didn't set out to get recognized, just get faster. Management did not realize how important it was to automate until it was already done. Then we were indispensible, actually before I even joined the team.

    But, they didn't pay to retain, and the team fell apart. We were all essentially help desk people doing real programming work, above our pay grade. Many people went for better opportunities when upper upper management had to meet stock-related goals, some involuntarily.

    You can know the people are better off, no matter what you get out of it. You can know when you leave, the system you built will be virtually unmaintainable even if you document the crap out of it, because whoever tries to replace you statistically won't be a good code reader. You can know that you could have helped, but didn't because it didn't suit your philosophy.

    I suggest proposing the system, with statistics on how much money will be saved, and most likely how many jobs can be eliminated as a result. If it is approved, negotiate payment and come up with the solution well under the deadline. If not, do what you feel is right.

  20. Looking from the other side by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2

    Speaking personally - if someone with no track record volunteered to give me a piece of software written in php that requires access to a mysql server, I wouldn't accept it. That's a gigantic security hole just waiting to be exploited.

    Lots of people "know" php and/or mysql because they're easy to learn - but that doesn't mean they know how to write even marginally secure code.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  21. My anecdotal experience by Tourney3p0 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    We had a project that required scrubbing widget X from a file. Widget X was identified by headers within that file. It was absolutely vital that the content referred to by those headers was also missing, so simply looking at the headers was not good enough. People had to go through the file byte by byte to verify it, and it took a long time. No need to get into details (though it was fairly easy), I automated the task on my own time since I wasn't part of that group, and I provided it to them.

    About 6 months later, I had a 500 dollar bonus on my paycheck and I was bumped up a step in my pay grade. It was little, but I certainly appreciated it. At no point did I think, "I could probably double dip as a consultant here." Had they asked me to do it on my own time, things may have gone differently.

    Not offering any suggestions on what to do one way or another, but that's my experience.

    1. Re:My anecdotal experience by zaphirplane · · Score: 2

      was the point to purge a GPL library by any chance?

  22. Think about your next job by cryfreedomlove · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm a hiring manager. If I see a resume that tells me the candidate went above and beyond their original job scope to create innovative solutions to old problems then I would definitely be interested. If the resume implies that they withheld good ideas and innovations because "It's not my problem" then I'd pass.

  23. Open soource it by qualityassurancedept · · Score: 2

    You might as well open source it, which if it is extremely useful will bring other developers in and then you can walk away a hero, knowing that you contributed code and radically altered the course of history. When I was doing my graduate work, the university administration when to great lengths to point out that all of my work was in fact co-owned by the University. I would be surprised if the same wasn't true of you. If you release it into the open before anyone knows what you are doing, then it will get taken up by others and advanced before the university has any idea they ought to make a claim on it.

    --
    if your life is such a big joke then why should I care?
  24. Easier to get money for finished product by F69631 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If they didn't have the money to do it, and you were told that you wouldn't be paid for it, why would you expect to be paid for it?

    It's difficult to convince managers to invest in software that might one day exist. They might invest your time but if they're not confident about your skills, they might fear that the project might take longer than expected and/or never get finished. Saying "We'll pay you if/when it's done" is also problematic (then there needs to time invested to crafting specifications about when it'll be done, there might be conflicts about that, budgeting money for investment that might or might not occur is a bitch, etc.). If you can show them a product and say "Here's a product that does X, if you're willing to pay Y, we'll start using this tomorrow" you remove the risk completely and it's much easier costs/benefits analysis.

    That said... I think that the OP is in a situation where he has no chance but to give his boss the product. If he says "Okay, I knew you don't have money to pay me but I still made this piece of software... Just to tell you that I'm not going to give it to you!" it won't exactly improve his status within the organization. So either he'll tell nobody about it or he'll end up giving the software to his employer for whatever price he might or might not be able to negotiate for it. If the employer really can't pay him with money, I think this would be a good chance to negotiate some non-monetary benefits. Think it would benefit both you and the company if you could allocate one day a week to any work-related project of your choice (Google-style)? It's a good time to make the case when you hand over that piece of software. Want an extra week or two vacation next year? I bet that's doable if the product really is as good as the OP claims. Want the office with the nicest view? It could finally be yours...

  25. Be upfront about your needs by Dishwasha · · Score: 2

    It is not very often that a company gets software designed for exactly what their needs are. Put together a decent package, i.e. licensing terms, costs (licensing and buyout), feature list, benefit comparison, maintenance fees. Spend the time and put together an LLC (sole proprietorship would likely be a little too risky in this instance). Don't be lazy and put it in to a nice professional looking folder. You'd be surprised how differently people respond when they receive something that shows some effort and professionalism compared to some guy saying "hey I've got this thing, you want it then give me money". The best part is they already know you and know the quality of your work rather than the line of some sleazy sales guy.

    Lastly, don't expect them to buy. Just because you see the need and it may be the perfect product for the company you work for doesn't mean they will want to buy it. At least you will provide a view of a compelling product and you're giving them the opportunity to consider things in a format that they are accustomed to and gives your supervisor something more tangible to give to his/her higher-ups. Don't nag and be sure to do some follow up in 2-3 weeks if you haven't heard anything from them. If they indicate they're not interested, don't bother pursuing, but if they say maybe or better just hold the line and keep following up every 2-3 weeks. Sometimes other cogs in the organization have to spin before a decision can be made and that can take time.

    Also don't be unwilling to negotiate. Perhaps you can show them the maintenance fees and say that you'd be willing to waive them with a minor change in job description that fits the necessary duties and a modest raise to make up for the difference in cost (perhaps that raise matches the amortized maintenance cost over a 12-month period...) which would also allow for performing maintenance and minor feature improvement during normal working hours.

  26. seriously? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You say that it "isn't part of your job description" and that you've got tons of down time, but you developed this on your own time and equipment. That all sounds like a monumental cop-out to me. If I were your boss and I saw a posting like this, I'd probably fire you just as a matter of principle. That whole concept of not-in-my-job-description is just so much crap. Odds are very good that you did plenty of thinking about whatever this solution was during your copious down time during work hours, and in all probability, you spend plenty of work time doing things that polish the skills you used to build your solution, even if you didn't actually work on that specific solution at your desk during business hours. It'd be one thing if this was a general-purpose solution to a common problem that wasn't specifically related to your job - then, by all means, quit and productize the thing, and keep the fruits of your labour to yourself. But this sounds much more like a custom solution to a very specific local problem and you are just trying to muscle some cash out of your employer for work you've already performed that has no utility outside of your job. Imagine if every software engineer tried to bill his boss for the thoughts he had on the drive to or from work, or in the shower, or wherever. Most of us do the vast majority of our creative thinking away from our desks. Your employer didn't require you to do the work and you sure as heck aren't entitled to compensation for it. By all means, refuse to turn it over, but as an employer, if I've got an employee that has a better way to do something who refuses to do it that way because it 'isn't part of his job description,' then I won't keep that employee around for long. Just long enough to have HR deliver his severance information, basically. Fundamentally, if you've got copious down time, then you should have been spending that down time automating the task that you chose to do in your off-hours instead, no matter what your job description says. Look at it this way - in the long term, doing that will actually provide even more down time, so it is a net win for everyone.

  27. Hey dumb ass by Aighearach · · Score: 5, Insightful

    a senior sysadmin should expect to write some in-house tools, yes.

    1. Re:Hey dumb ass by rainmouse · · Score: 2

      a senior sysadmin should expect to write some in-house tools, yes.

      Perhaps the wages or treatment of staff is particularly poor, though he (or she) does say he developed it in his own time. Perhaps two pertinent questions are if he enjoyed doing this little side project like a hobby and also if this releases the work burden on some of his colleagues, could this lead to some of them being laid off as a result?

    2. Re:Hey dumb ass by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      WTF is with his entitlement mentality anyway?

      I'm a firm believer in not getting 'something for nothing,' especially when the skills are above my pay grade.

      Has it occurred to you that doing this project would look good on your resume? Has it occurred to you that doing something "above your pay grade" looks good when reviews come around? Has it occurred to you that doing this will increase your value to your employer thus ensuring both job security and perhaps even increased remuneration?

      Go ahead and take this "I deserve it" attitude to your supervisor though. Nothing guarantees success in the business world faster than nitpicking your compensation because you can contribute something to the company that isn't part of your job description. Extra bonus points for whining about your "pay grade" during the worst economy in a generation. I wonder how many unemployed IT folks are screaming at their monitor while reading this article?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    3. Re:Hey dumb ass by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Are you insinuating that you should provide free labor because it would look good to a future employer? Fuck. That.

      You *do* deserve to be paid for time spent writing something if its on your own time; you don't give it away from free unless *you* want to.

      I wonder how many unemployed IT folks are screaming at their monitor while reading this article?

      Only the ones who aren't any good and therefore have no mobility and aren't in demand. The rest of us? Cleaning up shop (and still making six figures in a recession).

    4. Re:Hey dumb ass by rsmith84 · · Score: 5, Informative

      You are correct in both aspects. The treatment is poor, the morale company wide is low since the new management team was put in place and I am well under market value for my experience and skills. @Aighearach - A sysadmin is not a programmer. The skill sets are different but are lumped under the general IT fog. I hardly consider writing a script that cleans up log files on my Windows and Linux boxes to be in the same realm as writing an application that handles the hiring process and workflow for HR.

    5. Re:Hey dumb ass by kiwimate · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You *do* deserve to be paid for time spent writing something if its on your own time; you don't give it away from free unless *you* want to.

      He already gave away the time for free, regardless of whether his employer pays for anything. You might think he *deserves* to be paid for it. I think he *deserves* to be paid the agreed-upon wage to do the agreed-upon work, and if he goes ahead and develops something extra, on his own time, unasked, without telling anyone, knowing full well that the employer has no current intention of paying for a package, then he's taken a gamble, and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose on a gamble. If you don't like the downside or risk, then don't make the gamble. Or hedge somehow, if you can.

      In this case - if you know there's little to no chance of getting paid to do this extra project, but you go ahead and do it anyway, on your own time, and then whine that you're getting nothing, I tend to think you are getting exactly what you deserve.

    6. Re:Hey dumb ass by mabhatter654 · · Score: 2

      But this is still a "business" situation. If he was to try to make money, the school would certainly get THEIR HAND out for a cut.

      The real issue is one of getting management to see the value of the product. These packages can easily be $10k... It's no "hobby project" he's got. The problem is that it's all seen as "computer shit".... So they feel that they're being jipped. Other departments in an organization can't quite do "work from home" on the same scale.

      A sales or marketing department head wouldn't turn over this type of work. An accountant wouldn't either. There is a clear line between who is "allowed" to ask for money and who isn't....

      Back to the question at hand, nobody (see above groups) does work "for their resume" at that level... It's not acceptable to ask that. They didn't ask or pay him to do the work... But now that it's on the table they'd sure like to have it.

      Personally, when I reach this point, I think it's time to move on. The problem is that few employers have true "technical expert" paths so they'd rather have you BUY this than MAKE it.

    7. Re:Hey dumb ass by onepoint · · Score: 2

      I look at some of the post so far. And I have to say that the choice of whom I would hire would not fall on this guy is it passed my desk. I recently had to have some work done, so instead of posting this simple job of fiver I went over to an open source project and ask for some quotes. Yep I do contract out Open Source people since they might need the money.

      as for OP, he's fucked with that mentality, at least the guy whom wrote the post above (to much to do ) understands the rules clearly, He's in demand and does not need to worry, he'll won't do shit without a check and as long as that gray train is running, it's his right.

      BUT like all skill set's, sometimes you want to pay it forward, so that you can get the next assignment.

      in summary: Hire the best for the project under a project contract, Hire open source people if you can, and do that Google idea ( spend 20% on something else other than the in house project) and keep them on as long as you can. Hire interns that can craft prototype and reward them with strong reviews, positive and negative aspects of what they did for self improvement.

      --
      if you see me, smile and say hello.
    8. Re:Hey dumb ass by chaboud · · Score: 2

      There's a balance here. Being all about the cash leaves a bad taste in your employer's mouth, sometimes worse than if you hadn't done anything above and beyond at all. Sometimes you bring something cool back to the farm and it helps with your career. Sometimes it's better to put it in your back pocket and walk away. There should be no hard rules here.

      Businesses often call these "loss leaders," and they can be well worth it. It's an in-the-moment judgment call, but it's a judgment call.

    9. Re:Hey dumb ass by InterestingFella · · Score: 5, Insightful

      He said there was no other people working who could had done it, ie. programmers.

      The funny thing is he is even saying that he has lot of down time in work. Instead of being a total jerk jabbering about how his job description doesn't include writing software, but would still like the challenge (and did it), he could have used that down time to actually just write the software and help the company a bit instead of sitting around doing nothing.

      Seriously, if I were his boss and I read this, my head would implode. He even admits that he just sits around at work doing nothing. He then says this would had improved everything a lot, but gee, this closely related task isn't in his work description! And that is even without the fact that he then goes out and writes the software, and is now thinking about asking the company if they can pay money for it on top of the salary he gets. What a total ass!

      I would never hire anyone with such attitude. There are lots of sysadmins and programmers without work that have much better attitude. People who would actually care about the company and their work. If you want to be paid only for your job description, go do paid consultation work. Right, then you couldn't just sit around doing nothing at work time and get paid salary.

    10. Re:Hey dumb ass by CAIMLAS · · Score: 2

      If you are in IT and unemployed right now, there are (probably?) only a couple good reasons for it: you're in the wrong geographic area, you have the wrong skills (you haven't updated your's), or you're not trying.

      IT is literally exploding, from what I can see. Companies can't retain good talent, and good talent is demanding a premium. I'm seeing people set their own pay rate, and I'm hearing from (non-PHB type) others that if you've got sysadmin skills, there are a lot of opportunities available.

      In the past year, I've seen complete idiots ask for $70-80k a year and get it. These are people with no degrees and maybe 5-7 years "real" experience, and negligible analytic skills. People in IT are jumping jobs left and right, and if you have the skillset, there's really little reason why performing above and beyond the job responsibilities shouldn't justify you in asking for more pay.

      I've personally had several cold call/requests. Hell, whether true or not, I don't know, but in the SF Bay area, I've seen multiple companies posting what I consider to be fairly entry level sysadmin jobs at $120k. Those haven't stood out as being too outrageous compared to other postings, either.

      What I read in the OP's request is another issue causing him to be disgruntled: he feels he isn't being paid enough. He's probably pissed off to the point of not caring much anymore, and he's got a project almost done/done which he completed outside of work, for work. Now, after not getting his salary requests acknowledged, he doesn't want to just give it to the employer (but doesn't want to give it away for free, either).

      What I suggest is this: give it away for free. Implement it, and immediately start looking for work. The hangup here is that the OP probably has a substantial emotional investment in his job, responsibilities, and environment (no good sysadmin will be detached in this way). But he's got to be pragmatic about it too, or he's going to lose his mind and/or have a Postal event or firing happen to him. Depending on what he's making (or whta he isn't making) it's quite possible his entitlement attitude is valid. The proper response to that is (roughly) "I got an offer for X. Are you willing to match it or come close, as I like working here? If not, fuck off."

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    11. Re:Hey dumb ass by Runaway1956 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Speaking of job security - he has just supplied an application to do necessary tasks for the "company", which no one else is likely to be able to support.

      We have a guy at work who modifies machines, without documenting anything. We have quarter million dollar machines which have been rewired, and the prints and drawings are no longer reliable, because he has spliced wires, replaced wires, installed his own wires, installed relays, blah blah blah. Job security? My "coworker" and rsmith are probably blood brothers, or spiritual twins, or something exotic like that.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    12. Re:Hey dumb ass by Benaiah · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Do the work you can do not the work you are paid to do and you will be able to get a better job else where.
      You're talking like a Union crane driver, who wont do anything except drive cranes. If there is nothing for him to lift he will sleep in his cab rather then do productive work.

      I would like to finish by saying that reputation and references are everything in the real world. Pay Rises, Promotions and Future jobs depend on your willingness to go above and beyond the call of duty in your current position. You know what they say, first you get the responsibility, then the title, then the money.

    13. Re:Hey dumb ass by mwvdlee · · Score: 2, Insightful

      and do that Google idea ( spend 20% on something else other than the in house project)

      The guy who posted TFQ would just spend his 20% sitting around; he's not getting paid to work, but to "do something else". After that he would go home, create something his employer didn't ask for, then demand to get paid extra for it.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    14. Re:Hey dumb ass by garaged · · Score: 2

      I usually have this in mind when evaluating the "need for a product" a company has, if they cant/wont pay for it, they dont need it.

      --
      I'm positive, don't belive me look at my karma
    15. Re:Hey dumb ass by gmack · · Score: 3, Interesting

      IF you did it in your own time, release it as Open Source, at least then you have a good CV when it comes to getting a job elsewhere.

    16. Re:Hey dumb ass by Tim4444 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As someone who worked for years as a contract developer I have to agree.

      It's not like this was a side project with application outside of the company. Even if it was he'd need approval before implementing it in house if he wanted to get paid for it. It sounds like this software was developed specifically for this specific company rather than being a side project (truly on the side) that happens to be something that he could sell to his company. That he was dumb enough to apply his personal time and resources to company work is his problem, not theirs.

      If it's not in your job description and you don't think you're paid to do something then don't do it. This is a little bit like mowing your neighbor's lawn without his knowledge or consent and then asking him to pay you for it after the fact. It's also a little bit like that Reader's Digest scam where they'd send you a book you didn't order and then send you a bill a month later.

    17. Re:Hey dumb ass by Jay+Tarbox · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There are lots of sysadmins and programmers without work that have much better attitude. People who would actually care about the company and their work.

      While admirable, the problem with this line of thought is that the company does not care about you. Not a bit. If it benefited the company to let you go, you would be gone in a heartbeat without a thought to your loyalty.

    18. Re:Hey dumb ass by trboyden · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You've just pretty much killed your job career by posting this publicly, but for the sake of the next sysadmin to come along, I'll offer this advice as a potential employer. I have worked in several jobs in which I clearly had skills above and beyond the called for requirements. Those skills are considered pluses for the employer and you are expected to use them if you can benefit the company by them. In this particular case, your actions speak louder than your skill set. You have proven that:
      1. 1. You won't accept any responsibility greater than called for in your job description which makes you an inflexible employee
      2. 2. You are only in it for the money
      3. 3. You have zero concern for helping to improve the efficiency and potential profitability of the company through reduced overhead
      4. 4. You are unable to self-manage your time
      5. 5. You are unwilling to tutor other employees
      6. 6. You are unwilling to demonstrate your alleged advanced skill set through practical application of those skills
      7. 7. You demonstrated that you prefer to reinvent the wheel by creating an new application versus researching, implementing, and customizing one of many free and paid applications available through the Internet

      You need to remember that life is a job interview. Everything you do reflects on you as a person and as an employee. While you may not receive financial compensation for your work, down the road that work may be your foot in the door to a better opportunity with compensation and benefits that may outweigh the effort that was given away for the original work.

    19. Re:Hey dumb ass by cyber-vandal · · Score: 2

      Think about your next job not this one. Your willingness to work in your own time to improve the efficiency of your colleagues will look superb on your resume and provide an excellent answer to interview questions along the lines of "give me an example of when you helped to improve the efficiency of your team".

    20. Re:Hey dumb ass by BrokenHalo · · Score: 2

      The crane driver might be better paid, though... :|

    21. Re:Hey dumb ass by dhasenan · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Wow, that's remarkable. Your entire discourse is unfounded.

      1. It's reasonable to take on some extra responsibilities. Writing a major application is pretty far beyond IT tasks, though.
      2. The reason people take employers is for money.
      3. He has an interest in improving his company's efficiency. Otherwise he wouldn't have written the application.
      4. The implication is that he gets to go home early because he completes tasks faster than expected. And he states: "The entire source was developed on personal equipment off company hours." This is self-managing one's time pretty damn well.
      5. This wasn't mentioned anywhere. You have no reason to hold any belief about the amount of time this person spends training others.
      6. He demonstrated his skill set to himself. He's just considering terms on which to demonstrate it to his company.
      7. While there's no indication he did due diligence in investigating existing solutions, there's nothing saying he hadn't.

      In short, this person seems to be an employee in good standing, and he happened to create something as a hobby that would generally cost probably 30-100% more than he's making. It's reasonable to want more than a pat on the head for doing something like that.

  28. Job Description? Seriously? by ajdub · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You're looking at this the wrong way... You have obviously done the right thing by taking the initiative in the first place, but now, I hate to say, your attitude is all wrong.

    Here's how it works:

    1) You get some job
    2) You "beast" it. That is... you do what you're asked very well and you take the initiative to use the extra skills you have to wow everyone by changing everything
    3) You ensure that it is known that you are responsible for your work
    4a) They offer you a payrise or more responsibility and pay
    4b) They don't, you stick it on your resume and you get a better job somewhere else with a beamingly positive reference

    Do the right thing, make sure there are no problems of attribution and it will pay off in the end. Do not crap up your reputation by trying to strongarm more money out of them upfront. Keep a good attitude and it will pay off in the end. If I had tried to extract extra pay for going above and beyond every time I did so in my career, I can all but guarantee I would not have done as well as I have.

    Do interesting stuff, be unbelievably useful. The money will follow, it always does.

  29. Re:Listen up! by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2

    The thing is, it sounds like this project is directly related to the OP's role. Even in jurisdictions that don't allow "we own your soul" contracts, something directly relevant to the performance of the employee's normal duties would usually be covered by the basic IP clauses in an employment contract and would be enforceable in most places. And frankly, that's not so unreasonable.

    If it's unrelated work done on your own time and at no cost to your employer, that's a different question. If it's related to work and inevitably based on knowledge gained from work, then holding it over the employer for additional compensation is not only likely to lose (it's probably already their IP) but to get you fired (for breaking the basic employer-employee trust relationship, if none of the several other possible reasons).

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  30. Re:Tragedy of the commons by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 2

    My pay was $10k less than my actual salary range according to my title for over a year. I still exceeded expectations by doing what was necessary, and saving time.

    I doubled my salary in 4 years, by consistently delivering. In a Fortune 120 company, with strict restrictions on raises.

    I put in my time, I got screwed, now I'm comfortable. And, i have lots of contacts inside and outside (people who have left) the company, people who would recommend me. I'm being pursued by someone I worked with.

    Do you feel like you're at the top of your game, or at least at the top of other peoples' games? You might bubble-sort to the top. If you are seen as expendable, you might be the many people I've seen get screwed over the years.

    No one here can tell you how your management will respond.

  31. Down Time? by wisnoskij · · Score: 2

    "I like a challenge, and since all of my goals outlined since my hire date have been met and exceeded, I have a lot of down time. So I wrote the application."
    "The entire source was developed on personal equipment off company hours."

    If you have so much down time on company hours then you why not work on it during company hours?
    Part of getting paid a salary, and in particular server administration, is that you can have a lot of free time if you do your job correctly. You are supposed to fill this is useful projects not play WoW on company hours and then work on projects very related to your job off companies hours and ask them to pay you extra for that.

    But regardless, salary workers in general do not get to do contract work as well for the company on the side (and there really is no off company hours in a salary type job). They are paying you a set fee for all the work you do. If you have too much work or are more useful to the company then your pay warrants then ask for a raise but I do not think that asking to be paid for completing a project is to way to go.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  32. Just install RT or Traq by Culture20 · · Score: 2

    RT (Perl) or Traq (PHP) will both track tickets well enough. There are plenty of other open source web-based help desk programs, and installing such software and configuring apache falls within your sysadmin role. Yay.

  33. Confused write-up, but... by kiwimate · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If I read this correctly:

    * you saw a place where some software could really help;
    * you knew they wouldn't buy it;
    * you were told they wouldn't pay you to write it; and
    * it wasn't in your job description to write it (side note: seriously?)...but
    * you wrote it anyway; and
    * now what?

    With all of this, I'm left wondering why you wrote it? You say you like a challenge, but was this the only way? You further write:

    am easily capable of writing something to meet their needs, but do not believe I should be A) asked to or B) required to, as my job description and employment terms are not based upon this skill set

    Well, hey there, genius - you said you weren't asked to, or required to. So, again - why'd you do it? What did you think would happen? What did you expect? Your whole story really confuses me.

    Oh yes, to get back to a recommendation about what to do: I don't have one. Your attitude is petty and small-minded, and I can't give any suggestion that would fit in with that attitude. If you had some decency, you'd go to your management and show them what you'd done, maybe get some kudos, and use it to boost your resume. Taking initiative looks good. If you had some entrepreneurial inclination, you'd start a small company and market it.

    But I think you'd rather just maintain a constantly surly attitude and fold your arms and huff "I'm not gonna get paid for it? Well, screw you". Squandered opportunities, dude. Sometimes you have to take a risk, you know?

  34. Re:Remember your "Atlas Shrugged". Give nothing! by colinrichardday · · Score: 2

    I've read Atlas Shrugged. I'm not sure that you understood it.

  35. Compensation is more than a one time payment. by Vellmont · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A lot of people think that "code" is worth something. With very few exceptions, the code itself is almost worthless. Code is only worth something when there's people around to support it and make it alive. Without those people, it dies.

    Your college is unlikely to buy your code base from you. It's certainly possible they will, but you lack all the support structure a normal software vendor has since it's just you. If you decide to walk away all of a sudden, what the hell do they do since they don't have any kind of software development in house? What seems more likely is that the college might be interested in your code base if you gave them the code (GPL it if you think it's useful to anyone else). Then parlay this into a new job with higher pay where you continue to support and develop the infrastructure. If they're unwilling to do even this, then forget about it, and chalk it up to a learning experience.

    --
    AccountKiller
    1. Re:Compensation is more than a one time payment. by idbeholda · · Score: 2

      I have to disagree with you on this one. Without there being existing code in the first place, there's nothing to be implemented. Therefore, code does have a value, but it depends on the environment and context that it's being used.

      "Without those people, it dies."

      Generally speaking, code does not magically disappear when someone kicks the bucket. That's probably one of the more ridiculous blanket statements I've heard in a while.

    2. Re:Compensation is more than a one time payment. by Vellmont · · Score: 2


      Generally speaking, code does not magically disappear when someone kicks the bucket. That's probably one of the more ridiculous blanket statements I've heard in a while.

      I guess you haven't done much software development. Obviously if everything stayed the same, (the requirements, the environment, everything interacting with the system) you can continue to use a piece of software forever. We all know that none of this is the case. So yes, eventually without maintenance the application will die.

      --
      AccountKiller
    3. Re:Compensation is more than a one time payment. by idbeholda · · Score: 2

      Actually, I do a lot of software development. Simply put, code doesn't just "vanish" because someone dies. Support and development for the application may die, yes, but the code itself and the compiled executables do not.

  36. The software is not important by lucm · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There was a guy just like you at my job a few years ago. He created a lousy wiki-ish software to maintain ISO-9000 procedures, on his own time, and he offered to sell it to the employer, who declined. Then he "licensed" it for free (which was a huge PITA for everybody) and left a few months later to peddle his masterpiece. Last time I checked he was fixing beepers and unlocking playstations in a shitty electronics shop.

    On the other hand I know another guy who created a "suboptimal" Access horrorware to deal with complex inventory management. He not only gave it for free to the employer, but happily supported end users for a while. This was basically a POC and later a budget was allocated to create a more robust software; the guy did not have the skill set to write that one but he was identified as a SME to define requirements and provide guidance, and a year down the road he had his own team to manage the inventory project.

    Your software is worth nothing, it's your experience that is valuable. My advice: give your code for free to the employer, call it a pilot, and even if this leads nowhere, it will be a good bullet point on your resume.

    --
    lucm, indeed.
  37. Academia vs. Industry by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Perhaps the wages or treatment of staff is particularly poor

    If a trade college is similar to a university then the wages will not be great but the treatment of staff will be very good. One of the main attractions of working at a University is that it gives you more freedom to do your own things and show everyone what you really can do. Assuming it goes well you can then get hired by industry with a glowing resume which shows what you can really do or you find that you really like having the freedom and you stay on in academia - at least that's how it generally works in Canada.

    However with this sort of entitlement attitude I'd suggest the OP moves into industry ASAP - part of the compensation - and expectation - of an academic environment is flexibility and freedom. If you want a 9-to-5 job with fixed tasks and concrete job descriptions then academia is not for you!

  38. Have YOU talked to anyone or seen anything? by dbIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The cost of maintaining the one off custom software will far exceed the cost of buying the canned software

    If it's small, simple and well documented the exact opposite is the case. I've seen examples in every workplace I've been in since about 1987.

  39. Well yes... by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 2

    ... and provide affordable housing.

    Do you want to see the shanty towns in other parts of the world?

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  40. Here is how to do it. by TiggertheMad · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This guys is obviously not a programmer. As an experienced programmer, I try to write code that will be so good, it will solve the problem that I am being presented with, that I may move on to new problems and projects and never have to revisit something twice.

    This NEVER happens. It may be days, months, or weeks later but they come back. Sometimes its a stray bug I missed. More often, the client/user has come up with some new feature request that they just cannot live without and they must have.

    In any event, the iron clad rule of development is: you write it in a week, you support it for eternity. So with that in mind, give them your code. If you wrote anything worthwhile, they will come back with more requests and then you can negotiate for raises and such. If you do this, don't go for the jugular in your demands. Negotiate small projects and raises. Again, over time, as they see your value you can move into more responsibilities and pay.

    --

    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
  41. simple answer by jds91md · · Score: 2

    Give them the product you wrote. Yes, you won't get paid. You knew that ahead of time so you should not ask. If you do, you are likely to be told no, and that'll just disappoint you. Don't ask for disappiontment. However, you will be compensated in many ways which make implementation of your product worthwhile. Your employer will love you for your creativity and dedication to the organization's mission. You'd be paid in respect. Your employer will now find you indispensable to administer/maintain the product. You'd be paid in job security. Your team will love you for making a product which makes their work easier. You'll be paid by increased productivity from your employees, you'll be paid by increased dedication by your employees, and increased loyalty by your employees to you. That's loyalty to you personally. That could pay off in so many ways down the road. Your resume will look awesome, which will pay you in more opportunities down the road if/when you move on and seek work elsewhere. Your resume will make you look generous (even if that's not a major facet of your personality at work or elsewhere), and that's an attractive feature. You'll pay yourself in satisfaction with work and contributions well done. Don't underestimate that. (nice doodle on this at RSA Animate here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=u6XAPnuFjJc) -- Josh

  42. I'm not sure I understand the question. by Aggrav8d · · Score: 2

    Your software could make life easier for everyone on your team. Surely, this will trickle down to making your life easier, too.
    You already know they won't buy the stuff. So why are you looking for profit in a place where you know there is none to be found?
    If it's so great then prove it: Sell it online. If you sell enough copies it will pay for itself and then you can afford to give it to your school for free.
    Not only does that help your career but - as a condition of sale - you can use it as a marketing ploy and the school becomes one of your test beds for updates.
    Everybody wins.

  43. Develop an income stream outwith work by Colin+Smith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Good points.

    I would add that it can be worth developing an income stream which is unrelated to your primary work, a "hobby" income if you want. Something you enjoy doing and which can help when the TSHTF and your primary work vanishes. Better if you diversify; as unrelated to work sectors as possible but this is often not possible.
    If you are lucky it'll take off and you get to retire after a couple of hectic years.

    --
    Deleted
  44. Think about how it increases YOUR value by Aguazul · · Score: 2

    Yes, I think open-source it, make it clear that they don't own it, and make an agreement with them that any further work you do on it in company time is also open-sourced.

    Anyway, never mind what they might or might not benefit from it, the most important thing is how YOU are benefitting from it.

    My approach is to put in my best, even if I am underpaid, because pushing your own limits, you increase your own capabilities. Compare this to some slacker who puts in the minimum and never improves. So having increased your own capabilities and also accumulated a load more selling-points on your CV, you're in a much better position to get a better job or to negotiate a better salary.

  45. You should really open source it by aarongadberry · · Score: 2

    Open source gives you several great advantages. You don't give it to your company, but you get the credit anyways, while maintaining control of the project. The company gets to use it and you get the advantages you spoke of at work. You also improve your resume globally.

  46. Recognition by fleebait · · Score: 2

    Sometimes just recognition for the work you've done, and a pat on the back is payment enough.

    Toot your horn.

  47. A Seriously Educational Thread by assertation · · Score: 2

    Seriously, I have found this thread to be an eye opener. I didn't see the OP as anything except someone showing initiative and having a motivation to improve his workplace with a win-win solution.

    Yet, other people saw him as being a non-team player trying to game his boss & org.....even project hostility about it.

    Wow, different people really can see things completely differently without any malevolent intent.

    Good lesson.

    Another good lesson: the thing to do with down time at work is to do your best to find a way to put it to good use. A boss will think that is when the OP should have gone "above and beyond" for the company.

    I also agree with the people who expressed the sentiment that you should go "above and beyond" when you can. Those are the people who get more when more becomes available. Even if you don't get financial compensation, you can take the skills you developed elsewhere. You also have a lot more fun being innovative than just sitting back and turning the wheel at your job.

  48. Streamline yourself out of a job by Jellodyne · · Score: 2

    "since all of my goals outlined since my hire date have been met and exceeded, I have a lot of down time" + "The application would streamline a lot of processes and take a lot of the burden off my team" = they have more hands than work already and you're trying to make it more lopsided. At some point they're going to look at chopping some heads.

  49. Get a lawyer by bobwoodard · · Score: 2

    Seriously. As soon as you try to negotiate or assert your position, the overwhelming chances are they will balk or claim your employment contract grants them rights to your work. It's much easier to talk to a lawyer now who knows the circumstances unique to your location and can advise you hat your chances are.

    Don't forget, you can also 'donate' it to your job and position yourself as the good guy, which might help you out down the line, depending on your bosses and the company. Not to mention, it's also a nice thing to put on your resume that will look great at the next interview you go to.

  50. You make no sense by g0bshiTe · · Score: 2

    OP states "I was hired on as a Senior SA" doing L3 type stuffs. Yet programming a portal in PHP and mySQL are above his paygrade? Wouldn't that be below?

    My feeling is if you created it, it is yours unless you signed something that says anything you develop while employed there belongs to them whether it's on your time and resources or the companies. You began making it without any type of approval for funding upon it's completion. I'd say you should expect nothing other than easing the workload of your subordinates.

    Bite the bullet and turn it over asking for nothing. If you didn't sign anything that says it solely belongs to them, then release it online as CMS/Ticketing system that is donation based.

    --
    I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
  51. skills are above my pay grade by hAckz0r · · Score: 2

    First off, don't expect compensation for past work, that's not going to happen. However, If you turn over the software you can do so with the understanding that you will be required to maintain it as a part of your position, and since your current pay grade does not reflect that position the company should look into that "promotion" after the software has been shaken out and tested in a live environment. The better it works out the more valuable you will be to the company. Then you can fully justify your new/future position and the company should not feel that you are unworthy of that pay grade.Everybody wins, but you just need to be patient. Your hard work will pay off as long as you did a decent job on the software. Next review time you have some leverage to work for that promotion and something better to put on your resume if you are still unhappy.

  52. You wouldn't be getting something for nothing by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 2

    When you go to look for your next job -- hey, it happens -- they're going to ask you "what did you do at your last company?" You want to be able to say, "I wrote this amazing piece of software, way above my paygrade, that made the whole office purr like a well-oiled kitten," not "I did what I was told, I got paid, I went home."

    Similarly, if you stay in your current position, you want to be able to show off the wonderful things you've done for your office. Giving them the software means job security, because you can say, "Look at this. I am your god. And oh, by the way, nobody really knows how to maintain this sucker but me."* It's also a tangible reflection of your work ethic.

    All this can open doors for you. Don't blow it by coming across as lazy, small-minded, or ungrateful to your employer.

    There's an economic principle here called "sunk costs." You've already done most of the work on this project, and it sounds like this company is the only one that could really use it. If the software never gets used, then its whole value is the joy and enlightenment you got from writing it.

    * I don't advise getting into a situation where nobody can take over your position. I've been there.

    --

    You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

  53. Wrote it for work? It belongs to work. by ebunga · · Score: 2

    Does your employment contract say all software written by you within the scope of the company's business or your work duties belong to your employer? If yes, then it belongs to your employer. If not, probably not. Ultimately, you created something for work, so roll it out and hope for the best.

  54. Youth and loyalty? by HArchH · · Score: 2

    The original poster's statements are kind of shocking. Among others he said "as my job description and employment terms are not based upon this skill set..."

    I'm not sure that since I obtained professional employment ever took that course. I've drawn a salary for a work focus area. If I need to move out of my work focus area (job title) to do something the company needs I do it.

    If you want to expand your scope and title, and you think you deserve more money for it, then you should have a discussion with your boss and see if he agrees. It's possible that your work is of no value to them, and they have no need (real or perceived) for the skills you are trying to provide them. Perhaps, sorry to suggest, your view of the worth of your creation will not be matched by theirs.

    If you attempt to present it to them, and request compensation, then you're going to be in a very awkward job situation if they believe that as their employee you should be creative in your work and that your initiative should go to them.

    As one commenter above said, if you have created a general purpose product of value to other companies, then you can attempt to sell it on the open market. But if what you developed revolves around the processes and structure of the firm for which you work, then what you've created could be considered their proprietary information which you obtained through your employment and you could find yourself out of work and defending a claim at court.