Ask Slashdot: Re-Entering the Job Market As a Software Engineer?

First time accepted submitter martypantsROK writes "It's been over 15 years since my main job was a software engineer. Since then I have held positions as a Sales Engineer, then spent a few years actually doing sales as a sales rep (and found I hated it) and then got into teaching. I am still a teacher but I want to really get back into writing code for a living. In the past couple of years I've done a great deal of Javascript, PHP, Ajax, and Java, including some Android apps. So here's the question: How likely would I be to actually get a job writing code? Is continual experience in the field a must, or can a job candidate demonstrate enough current relevance and experience (minus an actual job) with a multi-year hiatus from software development jobs? I'll add, if you haven't already done the math, that I'm over 50 years old."

Comments

Good Luck

[najay]

As someone who just went through this, it is going to be tough

Re:Good Luck

[macs4all]

HR will never pass your résumé up to the person who can actually appreciate your experience and knowledge.

Any shop that has let HR insert themselves into the hiring process like that is pretty much doomed. Avoid at all costs.

Well, when the company gets beyond about 50 employees, that "Just happens". It sucks big time; but every Head Hunter I have spoken with has lamented the "Checklist" type of HR résumé-culling.

It's almost enough to make you want to stuff your résumé full of impossible experience, like many of the résumés of particularly Chinese "engineers", where it seems like the vast majority will list 30 years-worth of experience on every high-level engineering project in China they can find a reference to on the internet, and then being of an age where they would have started to work 10 years before they were born, knowing full well that there is absolutely no way to verify any of their claims. I don't want to sound racist (I most assuredly am not!); but I have seen some pretty laughable engineering-candidate résumés come across my desk, and it seems like Chinese engineering candidates seem particularly inclined to "pad" their experience (and I would suspect their schooling in some cases, too).

So, you might give that a shot, just to get past the HR gatekeeper. Then, when you get to actually talk with the person who will be your new boss, be prepared to SHOW them what you can do, and get off the subject of specifics in your résumé.

I aced an embedded developer interview a few years ago by taking out a sample of a particularly compact and component-dense product I designed the hardware and software for, and tossing it on my (future boss') desk, and saying, literally "Any Questions?"

The moral of the story is, if you can get past the HR droids, you can usually demonstrate that you have the skills. It's just getting to that point that is soooooo difficult!

Re:Good Luck

[HornWumpus]

As bad as HR is at eliminating bad applicants they are even worse at keeping good ones. Simply throwing out 90% of your responses would do a better job.

So now gaming HR is a necessary skill to get a resume looked at. Which might not be the result you are looking for.

Re:Good Luck

[Anonymous Coward]

The trick is to avoid the idiots in HR... and it's a trick best learned, even with recent direct experience. It's always much easier to get in via networking and referrals than it is to get hired by just shipping out resumes.

Re:Good Luck

[grimmjeeper]

It's not hard to bypass the idiots in HR. Recruiters often deal directly with the hiring manager because that manager is sick of dealing with the idiots in HR. But then you have to deal with idiot recruiters. (And no, not all recruiters are idiots but it's the 95% of them that ruin it for the rest). To connect with recruiters you need to get your resume on job websites. They'll contact you, mostly for jobs you don't have any interest in or capability to do. But you may get a lead there.

A better tactic to get back in is networking. Old contacts may know of places that are hiring. Former students may be able to help as well. Even friends that aren't in the industry may know someone who is.

But the biggest hurdle will be lack of experience. Doing some relatively recent things like Java and Android development will certainly help but don't expect a senior position or higher right out of the gate. There's a lot of young and hungry engineers out there competing for jobs and they probably have more recent/relevant experience over someone who's been out of the game for a while and they'll take a junior position for less pay. Competition may require starting over at nearly the beginning.

Re:Good Luck

[Grishnakh]

Let's just say that dishonesty does not wear the social stigma here as it does in the west.

What stigma is that? Our politicians, lawyers, corporate executives, and corporate marketing people are all professional liars, yet they're all highly esteemed and generously rewarded by our society.

Ever seen 'Old Yeller'?

[Anonymous Coward]

It didn't work out so well for the dog.

Well...

[BrownLeopard]

At 34 I've re-entered the job market myself after giving my own business a shot and I landed a job as CTO of a start-up game company. We're developing a couple of games now (one while will be in beta tomorrow) and when I look for programmers, I could care less about a space in employment as long as they can demonstrate the skills needed for the job.

Re:Well...

[Forever Wondering]

At 34 I've re-entered the job market myself after giving my own business a shot and I landed a job as CTO of a start-up game company. We're developing a couple of games now (one while will be in beta tomorrow) and when I look for programmers, I could care less about a space in employment as long as they can demonstrate the skills needed for the job.

Maybe you could give the original poster an interview?

Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm 63, I still love to code and am quite good at it, and I just got hired away from my current company at a significant pay increase. If coding is stressful, then you're probably not cut out for it or you're doing it wrong. Coding should be fun.

Been there

[HangingChad]

It's pretty much an uphill slog. What's totally frustrating is then reading about those same companies complaining in the press they can't find qualified applicants and need more H-1B visas.

When I was CIO I never had trouble finding qualified people. I did have trouble finding qualified people willing to work 70 hours a week for $35,000 a year, which is what I think most companies really mean when they say they can't find qualified applicants.

Re:Forget it.

[Anonymous Coward]

What? Being a good programmer means finding ways to be lazy. You're doing it wrong.

Re:Old Timers

[Hatfield56]

I was in IT for 24 years, starting in 1985; worked for a lot of large companies and was highly sought after. Following a typical vector, asm, C, C++, VB. .NET, T-SQL, PL/SQL, JSP; managed some sizeable projects for many years, never stopped coding. Actually I think I'm an excellent coder. Reliable. Then, job was outsourced in mid-2009 and I, stupidly, partly because I had hardly ever looked for work (always came to me), just took some time off; first big vaca in decades. Error! Well, that was it. Lots of bites on Monster, etc., but between not currently employed and as soon as they did some math, no call backs. Oh yeah, one, I was yelled at. I'm > 60. So, now I have to change my field to paralegal. Hopefully, that will be a bit better; who knows. All I can say is, give a job hunt a whirl but after 6+ months of rejections, start rethinking. Grim news. (and of course 50 is not >60; >60 is the kiss of death, at least for me.

Re:Old Timers

[msobkow]

The best DBA I know was a fellow from Florida named Keith Grey who STARTED his tech career when he was in his fourties. He learned a little database and supported it for a small company, learned Oracle, enhanced the prototypes I'd written for them using Oracle a year earlier, and just kept going from there.

He's now one of the most experienced and skilled DBAs I know, riding herd over a clustered Oracle RAC installation with multiple data warehouses hanging from the main systems.

In other words, it's never too late to start a new career, much less resume an old one. The question is whether you have the skills, the dedication, and the willingness to learn it'll take to succeed. Personally, I'd much rather recommend someone with the "right attitude" and a background in business for a tech job than any of the impatient, inexperienced hot-shot kids whose resumes crossed my table over the past few years.

Ah ! The old US of A

[Anonymous Coward]

In the UK (and most places in the EU I guess ) asking your age is illegal, and screening old timers out would be suicide.

To top it all, you can request to see in which basis they didn't give you a job.

I know, I know, evil socialist Europe.

Don't tell them your age on your resume

[honestmonkey]

I went through this as well, and as macs4all above mentioned, if it hadn't been for a job offer at a place I used to work, where the people knew me and trusted I could do the job (as I'd already had), I'd still be out of work. Don't put your age down on your resume, that might help. I stopped putting my graduation date, and only put jobs 10 years old or newer. Before that, I lumped everything together, if I put it down at all.

Of course, it didn't really work for me, so who knows if it's even good advice.

Re:You COULD care less?

[93 Escort Wagon]

I try to avoid absolutes.

People who use absolutes are horrible - I hate them all.

Re:You had your turn, buddy

[JimboFBX]

The agism is reverse from what I've seen.

Most job requirements look like this:

Need 3 years experience in something basic and simple like C++ or Java (preferred)
Need 2 years experience in obscure item 1
Need 1 year experience in obscure item 2
Need 5 years experience in industry A
Need 10 years experience

So what 20 something year old is going to have 10 years experience?
What person with 10 years experience is perhaps not going to have 3 years experience with C++ or Java? How do you manage to miss the two of the most predominate programming languages out there?

Seriously, most job requirements look like someone quit, and they just asked him to list out everything he knew rather than figuring out what was truly necessary for the job.

As a 26 year old, I exceed the requirements of most Level 3 job positions except for the obscure items that probably take a week to learn and a month to master. But I'll never get those magical years of industry experience without growing old and wasting my time in a beginner position. I mean, shit, I've been programming since I was 12 for christ sake. I write code as well I as write english sentences.

And yes, I know that most of these items are obscure. I've worked with a machine instruction language that was particular to only one manufacture of one particular machine used in probably only my industry, and yet I've seen my company put out job requirements that somehow expect someone with 2 or less years of programming experience to somehow have experience with it. I had to be trained in it and I didn't understand it until I was properly taught in a class since none of the managers had time to train me properly. I don't see why they can't reciprocate that same expectation on new hires. Essentially they're trying to hire people who they already fired or quit. And the job itself was easy once you get past that learning barrier.

And with a kid, i barely have time to clean my house, let alone try to learn something I see in a job application. My wife gets mad if my free time isn't spent with her...

Re:You had your turn, buddy

[ais523]

I remember an anecdote where one of the beta testers of Java, who was using it even before it was released to the public, got turned down for a job due to not having enough Java experience. I forget exactly who it was, though.

Re:You had your turn, buddy

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm intrigued to know what you think specifically it is about software development that makes it a career dead end over any other job role where you choose to not go into management?

Do you think there is some mystical job out there where you can keep growing your career without ever becoming a manager? Well, I suppose you may be right if you're going to become a sports superstar or something, but in general things like finance, HR, engineering, teaching, nursing, law enforcement, and so forth all tell the same story.

Really, if you've written off mangement as a career advancement opportunity then you've put a cap on your career anyway.

Software development at least has the benefit of the fact that it's been recession proof (unlike jobs such as engineering which are hit hard), and that at sub-management levels there is still a lot of scope for growth (junior developer through to lead developer, and all the way up to head software architect if that sort of thing floats your boat). The field also pays well above national average wages relative to level of experience too. Another fundamental point is the size of IT companies, they're some of the biggest in the world, and when that's the case for your industry it means there are employers with the funds to pay high salaries for the best candidates for roles that otherwise couldn't command them.

When I see posts like yours I can't help but imagine seeing some burnt out old geezer who was hostile to the idea of management and so never took that route, and sits bitter that as a result his career has reached his peak, and has hence decided it must be this way for everyone and that the whole industry must hence be fucked.

No really, it's not like that, your career would be just as stunted if you'd gone into HR, teaching, finance, whatever. There is no mystical industry for the person that wants an office job where you can sit doing what you want to do and only what you want to do until retirement whilst seeing no cap on your career as a result. Unfortunately if you want progression, you have to provide what industry needs, not vice versa. The positive side to all this though is for those who realised that management isn't actually all that bad, particularly if you're happy to push your way upto CTO, or even CEO of a software firm then software development is at least as lucrative a career as any other, and far more so than most. Kids, ignore the parent, and the GP, ignore the "Never going to be happy" brigade, they're just bitter, burnt out, failures, who wrote off their own career through sheer stubborness and/or laziness and now think everyone else should be persuaded away from succeding where they failed.

Disclaimer: Yes, yes, I'm aware finance includes the bankers, but they're really a minority in the industry, they're the Zuckerbergs of the industry. They're few in number compared to the millions of bean counters spread across every company in the world that has it's own finance department (i.e., most of them).