Holo Theme Is Now Mandatory For Android Devices

tripleevenfall writes in about the new theme changes in Android 4.0. From the article: "Starting with Android 4.0, support for the 'Holo' theme will be mandatory for phones and tablets that have the Android Market installed. Holo is the stock Android theme, known for its sharp angles, thin lines and blue hue. Third-party developers can now create apps and widgets using the default Android aesthetic, knowing that's how it'll look on every major Ice Cream Sandwich device that has the Android Market. " This is not banning custom themes; instead it is merely giving developers a consistent theme that is guaranteed to be installed if they want a consistent look across all devices. There are even a few improvements to the style protocol to help developers deal with dark and light themes.

Comments

This still doesn't address fragmentation

[bonch]

This doesn't appear to address fragmentation at all. To the contrary, fragmentation will be even easier, according to the article:

To be clear, this doesn't mean the death of phone makers' user interface customizations, such as HTC's Sense or Samsung's TouchWiz. Far from it: Google is also making it easier for developers to accommodate these custom interfaces, with a bit of code that adopts whatever theme the device is using by default. Essentially, app developers will be able to choose whether their apps will look more like stock Android 4.0, or like the phone maker's customized interface.

Recall that TouchWiz is the reason the Galaxy S and Galaxy Tab won't get Ice Cream Sandwich despite being only months old. Just look at this chart of the completely broken upgrade cycle for Android smartphones--and note the 2 1/2 year old iPhone 3GS can run the latest version of iOS. The problem is that the carrier's business model is to sell you a new phone every six months. It's not in their best interests to provide upgrades and support. As far as they're concerned, interaction with the customer is over the moment you purchase the phone, so they don't give a crap about trying to provide a cohesive platform that interoperates with competing Android phones.

Seamless experiences win out in the long term. We saw this when gaming moved from PCs to consoles in the 2000s, and it's happening now in the transition to the post-PC era. The previous mobile web OS usage article raised a lot of eyebrows, because despite the fact Android has greater volume, it's turns out that it's actually #3 in web use behind Java ME and iOS, which means the majority of Android users are not using their phones like smartphones, for whatever reason. On top of that, developer support for Android dropped by one-third over the course of 2011 despite an increase in activations.

The fragmentation issue is something Google desperately needs to solve if it wants to avoid the same fate that desktop Linux did. Throwing something out there, calling it open, and letting "choice" steer the ship isn't going to do it. Requiring support for a theme is a step in the right direction, but all it means is that there is a default theme, not a standardized one.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[recoiledsnake]

Is the first post on Slashdot these days reserved for an Apple or MS shill?

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

And the first reply to the first post is reserved for the Google fanbois.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Overly Critical Guy]

He's a subscriber, so it's not surprising he has first post. Is anything even remotely critical of Android on Slashdot these days automatically considered an Apple or MS shill?

The negative moderations of the OP are downright psychotic. There's nothing trollish about it at all, and it's backed by linked evidence. If only the majority of Slashdot comments put in the effort.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

You would think so. But it also seems that bonch has shit like this typed up, just waiting to copy and paste into any Android article that shows up on slashdot. A pretty good collection of pre-made posts that he modifies just a little to accommodate the article, apparently.

The article was posted at 1:03PM and he posted that at 1:03PM. The length of the post and the fact that he quotes the article seems highly unlikely that he actually had time to read the article entirely, type all of this up on the fly, and put it up. But what's new? It's bonch.

(AC because this is off topic and I'd rather not have it show up for everyone set to only see posts rated at 2 or higher, unless people with mod points are stupid enough to mod this up anyway)

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[forkfail]

It's the stock phrases, such as "Seamless experiences win out in the long term." They're pretty much copy-paste.

And this from an extremely unhappy Samsung Galaxy S phone, complete with busted GPS and no ICS.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

The problem is that the carrier's business model is to sell you a new phone every six months.

I don't think carriers and handset makers are actually that clever. I just dont' think they consider software updates at all relevant. Given even in the days of yore, with WinMo and PalmOS, OS updates were largely nonexistant. Want Winmo6 from Winmo5? Buy a Winmo 6 device!

The idea that you can have the latest and greatest OS with out custom flashing your ROM is kind of new.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

RSS feeds with alerts + stock paragraphs = cheep advertising to geeks.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[roc97007]

Are there still MS shills? I thought they all had to get real jobs.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

You would think so. But it also seems that bonch has shit like this typed up, just waiting to copy and paste into any Android article that shows up on slashdot. A pretty good collection of pre-made posts that he modifies just a little to accommodate the article, apparently.

The article was posted at 1:03PM and he posted that at 1:03PM. The length of the post and the fact that he quotes the article seems highly unlikely that he actually had time to read the article entirely, type all of this up on the fly, and put it up. But what's new? It's botch.

The asterisk beside his nick means he's a subscriber, and subscribers see published submissions like half an hour before everyone else. It's one of the advantages of being a subscriber. If you watch closely, you'll often see that the same people get first posts quite regularly, and they're all subscribers.

(AC because this is off topic and I'd rather not have it show up for everyone set to only see posts rated at 2 or higher, unless people with mod points are stupid enough to mod this up anyway)

You're posting as AC because you are NicknameOne, some guy who has a beef with Bonch, at least according to the anonymous replies to your posts. Slashdot drama, blech.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

... you must be new here...

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[GameboyRMH]

Yes yes we know you have a fiery hate for Google and you wuvvy-duvvy-love Apple, let's move on...

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[GameboyRMH]

There's always at least one "squad" of 4-8 MS shills operating on Slashdot.

Apple doesn't need shills, they have fanboys :-P

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

You're posting as AC because you are NicknameOne, some guy who has a beef with Bonch, at least according to the anonymous replies to your posts. Slashdot drama, blech.

Haha. You know, pinning an AC as a user is harder than you think, apparently. Want to try again?

I have a beef with any user who posts the same shit on multiple articles that doesn't mean what he's trying to say it means. That is something that is unfortunately very rampant around slashdot. bonch happens to be one of them that I've noticed doing it particularly a lot.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[roc97007]

> There's always at least one "squad" of 4-8 MS shills operating on Slashdot.

I've noticed a couple, but they usually get shouted down fairly quickly. My impression is that the users at large just aren't buying it anymore.

> Apple doesn't need shills, they have fanboys :-P

I noticed that... It's built into the culture. Why spend extra money astroturfing when your fans will do it for you? Apple marketing has to have the most brilliant strategists on the planet.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

what's it pasted from? it's a valid point since tablets are huge now and the games industry did embrace the controlled platform of consoles over the open platform of PCs. i wouldn't recommend an Android phone to my grandma because i have to admit the experience is not as seamless as an iDevice. even you say you're unhappy with the Galaxy S

methinks some people just don't like seeing the fragmentation argument come up again even though it's right there in the article

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you mean "the same shit on multiple articles"? Is the OP copy and pasted from another discussion? Link?

If you're not NicknameOne, then you're Galestar.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

what's it pasted from?

Just about every known Apple fanboi's posts have mentioned it, verbatim, over the last couple of weeks, I've noticed. They're all staying on message.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember that Apple is the only mobile phone manufacturer that actually has a computer background. All the others come from a background of selling disposable devices.
It's really a tragedy how hard it seems to be to get the latest version on Android without buying a new device.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod this asshole down for fucks sake!

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Overly Critical Guy]

There's always at least one "squad" of 4-8 MS shills operating on Slashdot.

Yes, what an open-minded, neutral place Slashdot would be if not for 4-8 MS shills.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[d4fseeker]

Give this one a try: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1363593
I think you'll find it icy-sweet enough
True, Samsung doesn't care about software updates, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't either.

Oh, and if your GPS antenna is broken or has bad contacts; you can order a new one for roughly 10-20$ off eBay, replacement is easy with just 2 screws.
However I usually find external bluetooth receivers with SIRF3-chips the best; my "Road66"-one even manages to get a steady and accuracte fix in large cities, has 6 hours battery charge and takes around 10 seconds to cold-start (I dont know how it does it... amazing!)

I for one am quite pleased with my Galaxy S (first revision), even if not with Samsun'g customer service. Well, that's what homebrew is for, isn't it? ;)

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Overly Critical Guy]

I have to say, this is an openly pro-Linux website and has supported Google for many years, so posts about shills are admittedly pretty ironic.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you mean "the same shit on multiple articles"? Is the OP copy and pasted from another discussion? Link?

If you're not NicknameOne, then you're Galestar.

Wrong again.

Look at just about any Android article and the same things pop up to make the same argument. It's typically updated to new articles whenever a new one comes out and updated a bit for that, then modified to fall in line more with the article they're posting under. It's all the same shit about Android being fragmented and ending up just like Linux on the desktop, which has yet to be shown what-so-ever (there is some fragmentation issues, so that has some validity, but most people making points like bonch is making blow it way out of proportion). The line of Android phones not being used as smartphones is pretty generic as well, even though the article linked for this one really doesn't mean that at all. In fact, I don't really surf the web much on my Android phone. It's perfectly fine to do so, but that's just a little side thing for when I'm bored. I would venture to say there's a number of Android users who use their smartphone like smartphones have always been used--email and apps to manage time, etc. as opposed to surfing the internet with them.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[forkfail]

An open platform will always have a certain level of fragmentation. It's part of the cost you pay for having an open platform. The benefit is that you get more apps and options. The downside is that they don't always play nice. So - I admit that there are negatives to so-called fragmentation.

With this said, if you honestly parse the OP's post, look at the structure, language, word choice and links, not to mention the timing of it's posting, and consider modern marketing techniques as they pertain to blogs and social networks, it seems to be at least a reasonable to at least suspect that the author has either professional or monetary ties to Apple, or that he is a true Holy Warrior for The One True Platform.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[alostpacket]

With all due respect, you don't understand what you're talking about. The greater fragmentation threat revolves around custom implementations of core parts of the OS. Most specifically "ContenProviders" (the API, not media companies, although those are a problem for everyone of a different sort). This is even a problem with Google not following their own APIs but asking developers to use the MediaStore API (but that's a different discussion).

With regards to upgrades, certain older devices had limited inter protected storage for the OS an apps. The original Samsung Galaxy S is one of these. Right after that phone came out more and more devices were implementing larger internal storage. This particular problem with upgrades, is an unfortunate one-time-only growing pain. That's not to say those devices cannot receive security updates, just that they cannot fit the entire ICS image + apps + a skin on the protected storage.

You can sit back and play monday-morning-quarterback, but the truth is the internal storage+SD had some nice advantages for the user, but ultimately it was decided (rightly so) that there needs to be more room for apps and the OS.

Finally, the point of this article, which has little to do with upgrades, is that app makers now have some more reliable and consistent APIs for UI widget appearance. There is nothing bad about this. Sure it's a small step, but it's a step in the right direction. It even allows devs to maintain a style inline with whatever skin the user is currently using, or use the more stock looking one. Finally, when you consider many apps use their own look and feel above and beyond any OS look and feel, this is probably not a huge deal regardless.

Your tirade again fragmentation, especially being so uninformed on the issue, just seems irrational. iOS is great, Android is great. They have different strengths and weaknesses.

Flurry is a joke to Android devs. They specifically cater to iOS devs, and were embroiled in a privacy scandal in early 2010 on Android. Further, Google Analytics provides a similar service for free, and one that is already hugely popular among web developers. Flurry puts out that same press release every year to garner press about themselves. This is absolutely the worst kind of skewed statistic. "Iphone analytics company that was previous burned by bad behavior on Android, says more of its customers are iphone devs than in the past" It was sad to see so many media companies pick up the PR release.

With regards to who does the most web surfing, you would need a statistic that accounts for the fact that many Android phones used to report the UA string as "mobile safari" and that many Android users use a variety of browsers: Firefox, Opera, Dolphin, xScope, and more. I'd look to admob or comScore as at least decent approximations. Certainly

There are some very valid fragmentation and bloatware arguments to be made against Android, but none of what you brought up holds any water when you dig a little deeper.

Full disclosure: I'm and Android dev myself, as you can see in my sig.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[msk]

PalmOS updates were far from nonexistent, but they weren't as easy to obtain as Android updates are through the free software development paths like Cyanogenmod.

I flashed my PalmOS devices many times. Only the last one with the Handspring name had an OS in unalterable ROM.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[jeffmeden]

Actually if he wasn't disingenuous to his own damn post, maybe he wouldn't be branded a troll. First he quotes part of the article that hints at Google's plan to make the UI theme more accessible to app developers, and then he turns it on it's head and says this will increase fragmentation... Because nothing says "fragmentation" like making app developers have to do LESS to cleanly support the OS. Then he links to an article as a claim of faith (re: the Galaxy line not getting rev 4 software), and completely leaves out the article from approximately a day later that showed Samsung was reversing their position due to customer outcry. And to top it all off, to not sound too much like a anti-google shill he throws in the sentence "Requiring support for a theme is a step in the right direction" which makes no sense at all given the nature of the rest of his argument.

He slapped together some canned flamebait responses and didn't bring anything about the actual article to this thread (or anything new at all for that matter) so yes he earned those downmods.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[icebike]

An open platform will always have a certain level of fragmentation. It's part of the cost you pay for having an open platform. The benefit is that you get more apps and options. The downside is that they don't always play nice. So - I admit that there are negatives to so-called fragmentation.

Fragmentation is a pejorative, invented by Apple in an attempt to cast diversity in a bad light.

When anyone brings it up when discussing a wide range of options and freedom in the market place you can know they are Apple fanbois. You never see the word applied to any other area, such as Automobiles, where there is even more diversity and choice.

In those areas, phrases like wide selections, lots of choices, wide variety, diversity, freedom, all are positive attributes.
Even "clones" and "Forks" have a positive connotation in the areas of computers and software.

Only when speaking of Android is the word fragmentation trotted out.

Convince me that is just coincidental.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of what you say makes sense, however:

1) How are you enjoying all the $S (not microsoft, the version of phone) features on a 4? OH WAIT, you can't. Calling it the "latest" version is NOT accurate. Bits and pieces may be left out.

2) You Mobile web OS usage link: How does this indicate how people use their phones? It only indicates the user's browsing habits and user agent. For example, this would NOT include Facebook as most people (on any platform) would use the native application.

Since there are miniscule developer support these days for JavaME applications, most people MUST use their browser. Add this to the fact that JavaME phones far outnumber all smartphone platform combined, it's no wonder why there's a vastly larger "percentage" compared to Android.)

Additionally, a lot of Android browsers are defaulted (or can be changed to) and iP* user agent (which a lot of people do since most websites don't look for an Android UA and provide a mobile-optimized version), artificially decreasing Android usage statistics (and increasing the other).

There have also been studies showing that 70%+ of all smartphone platforms are actually used mainly for games / entertainment, and not browsing. Even if the statistics were accurate, who cares about "web use" when people are playing games, watching Netflix (native app, not web), or using native applications?

3) Fragmentation? Even when Android 3.0 came out, most companies stuck with something closely resembling the Holo theme anyway. Sure, Samsung decided to make the Home icon look a little more "homey" and less "futuristic", but nobody really cared.

4) Tell me, what's the difference between a 3G and a 4$ models of the phone compared when they originally came out? Nothing. There's almost no difference in UI. There's almost no difference in functionality improvements in the base OS. Oh, I'm sorry, did they forget copy and paste and finally add it in? Or finally add cloud syncing your contacts and possibly other content?

Compared to the difference between Android 1.5 to 4.0: a whole new JIT engine. Facial recognition features. A whole new interface that adds image previews to the recent apps list. Live wallpaper. NFC library. etc, etc.

Some devices have partitioned their internal memory badly (Galaxy S, I'm looking at you) preventing an upgrade or just simply don't have enough internal memory (most 1.5+ year HTCs, etc).

It's one of the reasons why Google dropped the SD card slot out of the nexus lines.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[H0p313ss]

I have to say, this is an openly pro-Linux website and has supported Google for many years, so posts about shills are admittedly pretty ironic.

You have to admit that all the best flamewars occur when the MS shills, the Apple fanbois and the Linux nerds actually engage on a topic.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[an unsound mind]

The problem here is that the fragmentation is so bad quite a few developers are jumping ship to Apple - resulting in Apple's quite monolithic ecosystem actually looking more appealing even from a choice viewpoint, at least to me.

I could have my choice of poorly working, barely updated Android phones, and having to wrangle with the Android Market being full of malware even if I choose to void my warranty and go Cyanogenmod or get an official Google phone - or I can go for a much, much smoother user experience with iPhone.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[nahdude812]

As I've observed in other comments, the iPhone 3GS running the latest version of iOS by version number isn't that impressive since the major new functionality is still locked out of the device (typically for sales reasons rather than hardware reasons such as with Siri). It's cool that you get to see a number which is the same number on newer phones, but it only grants you a carefully selected subset of the most basic of the new functionality, so it's not really the same version after all.

In contrast, on Android, if your device is at certain version, it has access to all the features from that OS version that your hardware can support (eg, you can't depend on a gyroscope if none is present).

Your chart should be updated to indicate how far back all the new major features are supported. Apple's roadmap will suddenly terminate full-feature-support for each phone line on the first SDK release after a newer phone is launched.

In the mean time, although you can still target back to iPhone 3 OS versions in XCode (letting you include people with a device that is more than two years old but excluding you from using any newer features), you can still download Android SDK's back to API level 3 (the first public api level). So you can target every commercial Android phone at once as long as you either stick within the feature set from those original devices or you're clever enough to write code that knows how to fail gracefully when a more modern feature is unavailable. For example, we do this with one of our apps which has an NFC option (first available I think in API level 10, Android 2.3.3), but has plenty of non-NFC functionality as well - targeting API level 7 (Android 2.1) and conditionally using more recent APIs if the phone's OS supports them.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[an unsound mind]

I could do hardware repairs by myself, then install an unsupported third party firmware... or I could pay a little more, get an iPhone, and not have to learn a ton about my phone and dedicate what little time I have to other things than repairing my phone.

It's like the old saying that open source is only free if your time is worthless - but in this case, I'd have to pay anyway!

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Scowler]

In other words, you're not a developer.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe Google should demand that phone makers have their devices be able to keep up with the latest version of Android for at least two years (the length of a contract.) No, a Motorola CLIQ running ICS may not be fast, but it would allow someone to keep up with the latest apps, not to mention security fixes, such as on disk encryption, SD card encryption, etc.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

IIRC, major OS updates for palm devices largely didn't exist. Going from Palm OS3 to 4 or 5 was impossible.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[roc97007]

You too, huh?

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[roc97007]

> He's a subscriber, so it's not surprising he has first post. Is anything even remotely critical of Android on Slashdot these days automatically considered an Apple or MS shill?

No, not at all. For instance, I have several large beefs with Google, and I'm not happy with either MS or Apple for several reasons I'd be happy to bore you with at a later time. As geeks we have to use *some* devices to get our work done; the difference is, non-fanbois tend to judge devices on a case by case basis rather than buying entirely on logo and calling it good.

What made the thread originator (since vanished, for some reason) an Apple shill is how he went on and on for paragraphs about how wonderful Apple's philosophy is yadda yadda. People who have any interest at all in the original topic are unlikely to be interested in how Apple is so much better. It's something that's written for the benefit of the writer rather than the reader.

And just incidentally to the original poster if he's still listening, if Samsung won't play nice on Android versions, there's a simple solution: Don't buy Samsung. That's the thing about Android. When the vendor screws up, you don't have to go through the mental gymnastics to try to convince yourself that the vendor is correct and that's the way it's supposed to work and you're a better person for missing that feature. You just buy from a different vendor. Apple fanbois don't have any concept of that, and this causes a cognitive disconnect when they try to talk to the rest of us.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[roc97007]

> You would think so. But it also seems that bonch has shit like this typed up, just waiting to copy and paste into any Android article that shows up on slashdot. A pretty good collection of pre-made posts that he modifies just a little to accommodate the article, apparently.

...the Slashdot equivalent of email forwards... The sad thing is, he probably doesn't even get paid for it.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

Fragmentation is a pejorative, invented by Apple in an attempt to cast diversity in a bad light.

What an ironic accusation, where usually it's the Apple fans claiming Apple invented something that's been around for awhile. And fragmentation indeed has been used in the hardware/software industry long before the Apple/Android flamewars.

When anyone brings it up when discussing a wide range of options and freedom in the market place you can know they are Apple fanbois. You never see the word applied to any other area, such as Automobiles, where there is even more diversity and choice.

In those areas, phrases like wide selections, lots of choices, wide variety, diversity, freedom, all are positive attributes.

What an awful comparison. When you add a custom theme to a cellphone, it hinders the ability to upgrade it and gives the manufacturer an out to delay or not support future upgrades. Ford does not refuse to service your engine because your car is painted yellow or has a manual instead of automatic transmission.

Even "clones" and "Forks" have a positive connotation in the areas of computers and software.

Only when speaking of Android is the word fragmentation trotted out.

So what you're saying is you have never been involved in developing software or drivers for different types of *nix OSes, or even read any of the forums?

Convince me that is just coincidental.

You like to throw out the term 'Apple fanbois'. It seems as though you are the emotionally invested in a corporate brand and deflect all criticism. Why don't you convince us that you are not just a 'Google fanboi' ?

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

We'll move on when you do. (hint: I'm looking at your sig)

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

This doesn't appear to address fragmentation at all.

Customisability isn't something that needs to be "addressed". It's only a problem when the customisations break applications, and this change is designed to help avoid that.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget the security aspect. We see threads on /. daily about Android malware. iOS is pretty much 100% secure when it comes down to incidences of compromised devices.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[roc97007]

> Yes, what an open-minded, neutral place Slashdot would be if not for 4-8 MS shills.

It would definitely be less entertaining.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[roc97007]

Sorry, I had to chuckle at that. Rule 34: "openly pro-Linux" sounds like an invitation to group sex. Or would, were we talking about any other group than computer nerds...

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

Other than Siri, what does iOS 5 on a 3GS not support?

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

IT seems the first reply to it is reserved for a Android fanboi that is blind to reality.

He speaks truth, you chooseto ignore it, much like the Morons that watch Fox news.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Lumpy]

Dont forget that it's an absolute PITA to program for android compared to iOS.

Android Programming is painful and downright ugly. I HATE having to write android apps and try to convince management here to simply let us create a webside "app" that does not need to be installed and will work on all phones.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[GameboyRMH]

I have good logical (and hopefully obvious) reasons for hating Apple and I'm not a fanboy of any company (well, maybe GoG...).

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[maccodemonkey]

"With this said, if you honestly parse the OP's post, look at the structure, language, word choice and links, not to mention the timing of it's posting, and consider modern marketing techniques as they pertain to blogs and social networks, it seems to be at least a reasonable to at least suspect that the author has either professional or monetary ties to Apple, or that he is a true Holy Warrior for The One True Platform."

Huh? This sort of response is the sort of thing that hurts actual debate.

"Your point seems valid and I agree with it on principle, however without any solid evidence I'm going to accuse you of being a corporate shill using immature labeling, and disregard everything you've said."

I mean, seriously, I could copy paste what you said right back at you and accuse you of working for Google.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[viperidaenz]

Perhaps the Android users are playing Angry Birds for free instead of paying their carrier to go on the intertubes

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[GameboyRMH]

I'd flashed both my Treo 180 and Treo 650 with updates. Mind you those were closed-source OSes, but you just entered the phone's serial into a page on the Palm website and received the update image.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[chrb]

Agreed, and it is blatant. Here is one example. From the above "bonch" post:

Seamless experiences win out in the long term. We saw this when gaming moved from PCs to consoles in the 2000s, and it's happening now in the transition to the post-PC era.

It's the business model, +5 Informative by Overly Critical Guy:

Seamless experiences always win out over time. We saw it when gaming shifted from PCs to consoles, and now the industry is shifting from desktops to mobile devices. Fragmentation is a huge for users.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

In other words your not a developer either. Bet your the same kind of code monkey that would have repeated the lie that Netscape didn't have 128 bit encryption and rendered pages in a non-standard way .. the lie that back in the day was repeated over and over again because the "developers, developers, developers" didn't want to do anything but build sites that worked with IE.

Oh well.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[viperidaenz]

But when Ford develop new software for the ECU in later models to improve fuel efficency and emissions they don't give you a free upgrade on your old model. They won't even let you pay for it. You can't even offer to pay for an entire new engine to upgrade your last-years-model. They force you to buy an entire new vehicle. In conclusion, Ford refuses to upgrade your old vehicle because it is not a new purchase. Comparing it to servicing your car because its a different colour - that would be an apt comparison if the warranty was void because you bought an Android phone with the TouchWiz thingy on it.

There is no automotive analogy that holds true for this situation.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[yodleboy]

absolutely correct. Saying they are the same is wishful thinking and Apple have no intention of giving you new features indefinitely. I bought a Gen1 iPhone and loved it as there was very little real competition at the time (i wasted a lot of money trying the ones i could get). As always, I was not a big fan of the closed environment, but I still enjoyed my phone.

Fast forward to the iOS 4 release. What? I can't get iOS4 on my phone (w/out a jailbreak anyway). What's that Steve? It's because my phone is underpowered? Wait a sec, except for 3G and a GPS chip my phone has the same internals as the iPhone 3G iPhone Spec Comparison, which is eligible for the upgrade. OOOOOHHH what you really mean is you want me to get a new phone! Okie Dokie! Now I have a Galaxy S and my wife has moved from iPhone to Android as well. You know if they'd just come out and said "we want more money, time to buy a new phone people" I might have gotten a 3GS. My wife had one and liked it ok, but by burying it in a lot of "for your own good user experience" BS, it just bugged the crap out of me.

Anyway, I reserve the right to screw up my own user experience in whatever way I want and Android at least gives me the choice. : )

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[forkfail]

And absolutely fascinating that the other quoted comment is also a first comment in this story:

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/12/28/1536257/samsung-reconsidering-android-40-on-the-galaxy-s

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[iluvcapra]

Thank goodness, I hadn't realized that Samsung failing to upgrade the Galaxy S to ICS, and all Android vendor's and carrier's systematic failure to offer good support of anything, is actually part of an Apple marketing campaign.

Fortunately, you offer the solution. All I have to do is stopping using the word "fragmentation," and start calling all vendor mistakes "diversity," and, my mind being thus made right, I will understand that bad support is actually a good thing.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[NatasRevol]

You don't even have to pay a little more if you don't want.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[d4fseeker]

And then spend countless hours tether-booting it, trying unreliable jailbreak hacks and stumble across issues with Cydia?
Or maybe you just don't care about jailbroken freedom, in which case: Why didn't you buy an Iphone4 in the first place? They were roughly the same price...

On the other hand you could just get a phone from one of the manufacturers that really cares about updates, like HTC, even if that means having a less impressive hardware. You did a choice knowing full well the manufacturer's notority for not caring about updates or if you didn't then you should have looked it up first.
Complaining about having to do stuff yourself afterwards is kinda... stupid

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[englishknnigits]

You missed two major points. The first is that being "open" and allowing "choice" does not guarantee a better product at first but it does make it pretty much inevitable. iOS will slowly join the ranks of AOL in terms of active use while Android continues to evolve. The second point is that you somehow think that browsing the web is what makes something a smart phone. There are plenty of phones most people would not consider smart that can browse the web. The applications as a whole are what make it a smart phone.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember doing that on my old Palm V. PalmOS 3 was free, but it cost like $15 to upgrade to PalmOS 4.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[pauljlucas]

I'm and Android dev myself...

Given that you are, what do you think of this? (Seriously.)

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

Shhh, let him rant pointlessly. It's funnier that way.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Dahamma]

but it only grants you a carefully selected subset of the most basic of the new functionality, so it's not really the same version after all.

That's a pretty huge exaggeration. The only missing features for the 3GS are Siri and in-place photo editing. 2 features of 200+ added with iOS 5. Big deal.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Psychopath]

Don't forget the security aspect. We see threads on /. daily about Android malware. iOS is pretty much 100% secure when it comes down to incidences of compromised devices.

Your point is partially valid, although exaggerated. I'll make two in return:

1) Apple is hardly 100% secure. Every jailbreak method that has ever existed exploits an unpatched vulnerability in their software.
2) The upside to Apple playing the role of Morality Police is that it reduces app malware to manageable levels. The downside is that apps that disagree with their social views or with the desires of their carrier partners are not approved or are quickly removed.

With great power comes great responsibility. The difference is that Android largely endows the customer with that power, while Apple largely reserves it for themselves. There are benefits and drawbacks to both.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[wbo]

You could upgrade from PalmOS 3.5 to Palm OS 4 on most devices after paying a nominal fee for the upgrade (I think it was either $10 or $15). For devices running Palm OS 2.2 you could upgrade to Palm OS 3.5 by purchasing an upgrade kit which included a new flash chip and additional 2MB of RAM to support the new OS. You couldn't upgrade from Palm OS 4 to Palm OS 5 because Palm OS 5 was designed to run on ARM chips and Palm OS 4 was designed for a variant of the Motorola 68k architecture.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

Comparing this to cars is not a good analogy. If Apple made the iCar (not saying that won't), then in your analogy you would be talking about a Mustang made by every single car manufacturer, in so many different ways that to compare the iCar to the Mustang would be impossible.

This is what's great about the iPhone. You know what it is, and what you get. Andriod? Which one. Which version, made by which manufacturer, with which custom version, of which version, what hardware platform?

I got a new phone last week. It was the latest by Apple. You now know EXACTLY what phone I have, and everything about it except the color and memory.

Someone else got a new phone last week. It was the lastest Andriod. That doesn't even begin to narrow it down. I have no idea who makes it, what kind of hardware it's on, the version it's on, the custom version of that version. In other words, it's fragmented.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

The fragmentation android has is similar to the fragmentation the desktop pc and windows has. As long as you're sane as a developer, you won't hit many edge cases. If you're sane as an entity that puts your os on a machine, you don't want to be incompatible because you exclude yourself from the populous. It's self serving.

And yeah, there are some "incompatabilties" that are more natural, e.g. cell phone design vs tablet design. 5+ buttons are more accessible on a tablet size display than a phone display, but again: they don't create incompatibilities because you wouldn't want to exclude yourself. So now we have two ecosystems, tablet and phone, with very minor differences.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Skuld-Chan]

What is funny is anytime I ask my friend who has an iPhone 4 if he can do things like swype (or any customized ime), inter-application data sharing etc - his answer is always - I can jailbreak my phone and do that.

I guess it goes both ways ehh?

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

It's pretty true. I develop for iOS, Android and Blackberry. Forget comparing Android to iOS; i'm still making more money from Blackberry than Android. From my experience Android users don't want to pay for apps. And unless your free app is amazing ad revenues are peanuts. That said all mobile app development is quickly becoming a massive race to the bottom and the only way to make money is to be creating apps for other people be that companies that "need an app" or the guy who thinks he has a great get rich app idea and has money to burn to have you developing it.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Skuld-Chan]

I've been an android user from the start - I really don't know what this fragmentation thing is you speak of. I think its a buzzword invented by apple to scare people away from Android.

My honeycomb tablet even runs regular phone apps with zero problems.

If it is an issue - I certainly don't see it as a regular user.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[pauljlucas]

You never see [fragmentation] applied to any other area, such as Automobiles, where there is even more diversity and choice.

First, for some things, possibly including automobiles, more choice isn't always a good thing. Second, "fragmentation" is much more of a problem for developers and not consumers. Third, "fragmentation" doesn't apply to things like automobiles because they don't run a common OS that developers write apps for. "Fragmentation" is referring to the fragmentation of the OS, not the hardware choices.

Can you imagine if there were something like CarOS that all automakers used, but tweaked the hell out of for their own cars? It would be just as "fragmented" a market and as much of a pain to write apps for.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

No one knows because iOS 5 runs like shit on the 3GS..

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[triffid_98]

But when Ford develop new software for the ECU in later models to improve fuel efficency and emissions they don't give you a free upgrade on your old model. They won't even let you pay for it. You can't even offer to pay for an entire new engine to upgrade your last-years-model.

Ford (and basically every other maker) will happily sell you a new engine for your 1 year old car, they just won't give you a special upgrade price or install it for free.

Also new software isn't what makes those fuel efficiency figures go up, not by itself anyway.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Toonol]

Good catch. It's generally painfully obvious when you read something that has been prepared in advance like that, or is written to hit certain bullet-points or catch-phrases.

Sometimes you'll see an Apple advocate mention in a post that he likes product X because 'it just works'. It's hard to imagine that somebody writes that with a straight face, but I think they're deadly serious. They think they're making a point, not realizing that they're admitting to the world that their thought processes are controlled by a marketing campaign.

The thing is, I think Apple products are generally really high quality (except for their ported software... itunes and quicktime are terrible). However, I'm constantly being driven away from them by the quality of their advocates. I now view iphones and ipads as vaguely creepy in the effect they have on some people.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[viperidaenz]

Sure they'll sell you a new engine, providing they still make it. But it will be the same engine, not the one for the later models. If you buy a different one they aren't going to install it for you. You'll have to go to another mechanic - and ford won't provide a warranty on any modifications made to it to make it fit.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Toonol]

I have a beef with any user who posts the same shit on multiple articles that doesn't mean what he's trying to say it means.

Exactly. Bonch would be just as annoying if he spouted pro-google talking points over and over again. This isn't an apple vs google thing; this is simply a question about low quality posters. Bonch isn't contributing to slashdot; he's degrading it, in nearly the same way a guy selling fake Nike shoes would be degrading the quality of slashdot by posting the same stuff repeatedly in every thread.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[sl4shd0rk]

Just look at this chart of the completely broken upgrade cycle

Although I agree that things are much easier to maintain in the black-and-white-world of one hardware platform, one software stack and one source of development, Google is allowing manufacturers to have the ability to innovate and experiment without being locked-in to doing everything "one way". That kind of trickles down to the consumer by allowing them to have a platform where they can experiment and innovate also.

Yeah it's easier to support one single platform but I think the freedom to innovate is more important.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

Fragmentation is a pejorative, invented by Apple in an attempt to cast diversity in a bad light.

This.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[shellbeach]

The fragmentation issue is something Google desperately needs to solve if it wants to avoid the same fate that desktop Linux did.

Hmmmm ... I'm not sure the fate of desktop linux (which never broke past even 1% of the market) is comparable to Android, which is nearing 50% of the smartphone market. Given Android's success, I'm not sure most users know or care about fragmentation -- all they want is for apps to work on their phone, and this is a good step to ensuring that.

What I'm really confused about, though, is why a trolling post like this has been modded up to +5. You make one good point (regarding fragmentation) but then sully it with a load of FUD, including a set of extremely biased and misleading links. Seriously, I've been reading /. a very long time and known some dedicated trolls, but nobody has come even close to the one-person-war against Android that you've been waging these last few months. Did Android steal your lunch money when you were a kid?

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[exomondo]

Recall that TouchWiz is the reason the Galaxy S and Galaxy Tab won't get Ice Cream Sandwich despite being only months old..

Specifically the 7" Galaxy Tab, only 15 months old and the Galaxy S, only 20 months old. In the tech world that's ancient.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[sjames]

Sure it does. It adds an additional point of commonality to all compliant devices. It may be an incomplete solution, but it does address the problem.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

In other worlds, you're lazy and couldn't care less about spending your time to find out the right phone for yourself. Instead you join the bandwagon "ohh everyone has that" without thinking wether or not it fits your actual needs.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[toopok4k3]

Developer who "jumps ship" from Android to Apple, or the other way is dumb. Developing for both is the best way to reach most customers. Both platforms area easy to develop for, why would you pick one out of two? Fragmentation is only an excuse for shitty developers to pick Apple only.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[BitZtream]

Fragmentation is a pejorative, invented by Apple in an attempt to cast diversity in a bad light.

I assure you, I've been bitching about the retarded fragmentation in the OSS world since before Apple mattered again. Its cute that you try to spin it as a marketing ploy used by Apple, but every time you pretend Linux isn't a fragmented trash heap, you just make yourself look fanatical and not worth listening to. When you clearly aren't living in reality, no one else is going to bother listening to what you say.

All cars pretty much work the same way. You can pretty much install any stereo in any car and get all or very close to full functionality with off the shelf components. That is not true about Android or Linux, or computing in general. My windows app isn't going to run on Linux with a adaptor. It requires an entire car simulator and me to purchase an additional car (OS). Hell, my Linux app my not even work on YOUR Linux box.

Gas from every gas station will work in every car in the country and most others, there are choices, but in any given general area there is really only 1 type of main stream fuel for cars, some places have 2 primary types, with different grades of those so all you really have from any given gas station are one or two choices, 99% of the time its one type with the only difference being a quality of the gas that doesn't matter to most cars!

Cars are 'more diverse' in compatible options. Android is more diverse in that 'everyone does something different for no reason with no logic to why its that way'. When I install new seat covers or cars or even change the paint on my car, I dont' have to be concerned with the engine performance. Before I put new seat covers on android, the engine performance IS a concern cause apparently the wrong paint makes the whole UI lag to all hell. When I install a stereo in my car, its still going to have the horse power to generate electricity for the rest of the electronics so my dash isn't going to lag out and tell me I'm doing 45 when I'm really doing 65, but it wouldn't be even a little surprising for an Android device if you used one in the dash.

You don't see the word applied anywhere that your little bubble doesn't want it to be. You're trolling about Apple with pure ignorance of reality. You're trying to use a car analogy but are too stupid to realize that your analogy disproves your statement.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[forkfail]

You manage to make the car analogy even more terrible than usual.

Gas not being equivalent to electricity?

And just try putting an oil filter from a BMW into a pinto.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[BitZtream]

It would be just as "fragmented" a market and as much of a pain to write apps for.

No, it wouldn't be, because it isn't. The OS isn't software as you're thinking of it, but there most certainly is a set of design standards for a car that everyone follows more or less, and as such these cars are compatible with the rest of the world.

Thats why all cars pretty much take the same double DIN stereos.

Tires are all pretty standardized in a given class of cars.

Bolts and Nuts are standardized.

Pretty much all cars in a given geographic area will use a single common fuel source (gasoline, diesel, propane, whatever)

Batteries are pretty much all the same voltage

Width and wheelbase are pretty common and standard for an area and type of workload.

Pretty much everything in a car is 'standardized' so that everyone can work with everyone else and a level of interoperability exists so things can be interchanged.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[whoop]

Does the 3GS not have a microphone? Or is it just not capable of transmitting the recorded voice over a network connection the the Siri master computers?

More serious though, can developers program extensions to Siri? Say I have an app that manages a grocery list. Can I add a hook to let the user say "Add A, B, and C to my grocery list" and do it?

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[BitZtream]

Because given an amount of effort put forth by the developer, we'll call it X, you will get Y return on your investment.

With Android, the ratio of X to Y is always less favorable to the developer than it is on iOS.

So unless you have saturated the iOS market completely, it is always more profitable to work on saturating the iOS market.

As a result, Android will always have the lower quality app as the quality developers will continue to focus on iOS where they can make the most money. Lets face it, the bright ones aren't going to be making the least money possible.

It is an excuse, I agree, but its also an intelligent decision. Personally, I won't port to android because I can't stand lag. I admit it didn't bother me when I didn't know any better, but after I got used to it, I can't not use my iPhone now. Mind you, I also don't generally upgrade iOS until I have to as each new version of iOS tends to make older devices lag more often as they add weight to the OS, so I'm not trying to pretend Apple is lag free.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[an unsound mind]

My HTC phone went from 2.2 to 2.2 during it's lifespan, despite 2.3 being available from the day I bought it, and it was a new model back then.

I *don't* care about the freedom jailbreaks provide, that's why I replaced my HTC with an iPhone 4S.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[BitZtream]

So let me get this straight ... because the product does what I want when I want, my thought processes are controlled by a marketing campaign?

Thats a pretty impressive marketing campaign. Here I thought I could think for myself and that I just happened to be happy with the product.

I'm really glad you could enlighten me and tell me how I really feel and who controls me.

I never thought I would meet an all knowing god, let alone on slashdot.

Seriously, grow up douche bag. I'm sorry your toys aren't as fun as my toys but your jealousy and ignorance are annoying. Do you even hear how unbalanced you sound? Do you realize how creepy your statements are? How fucked up are you that you think that a phone or tablet, a simple common device, has mysterious magical properties over people?

You realize that to everyone else in the world when you try to pretend that iPhone people are the ones with issues you just make it blindly obvious that you're completely out of touch with reality.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[billcopc]

Agreed on all points.

A few years back, I needed a new cell phone. Despite being a big PC freak, I had avoided smartphones for a very long time. I preferred using a cheap phone, and a separate Palm Pilot. Anyway, when shopping for phones, I didn't know much about iPhones and Androids, so the wife and I decided to get one of each, with the option of swapping them, or replacing one outright if it sucked. Despite being Motorola's then-flagship, the XT720 was running an outdated version of Android, with no upgrade path whatsoever (fuck you, Moto!). It also lacked graphics acceleration and had a really irritating touchscreen. Next to the iPhone 3GS, the XT720 looked like a dinosaur - albeit one with a better camera. I really hate to say this, but it's a safe bet that the iPhone is what finally lured me over to the Apple side, after 30 years of mocking those hipsters.

As a mobile app developer dealing with all 4 platforms, the Android is only slightly less frustrating to work with than a Blackberry. Fragmentation means I have several dozen variations to worry about, between OS versions, display resolutions, vendor and hardware-specific quirks like cheapass displays and no multitouch. Let's not forget that many of these devices use CPUs that are way below spec, because there is no minimum hardware enforcement whatsoever, as long as it (eventually) boots... It just so happens that these shit devices make up a huge portion of the user base, as they tend to be flogged en-masse as the $49 upgrade with 2-3 year contracts, instead of a $0 flip-phone. You really cannot rely on any sort of baseline and that means Android apps tend to be sloppy unreliable messes, unless you're a big company with access to lots of testers. It's also a very tough business position to charge more for developing an Android port of an IOS app, when the perceived user base is much smaller. I don't know if it actually is, but clients always ask for the IOS version first, Android/BB second.

Apple, in limiting their hardware to 5 currently supported devices with backward compatibility, makes my job a whole lot easier. I don't even need one of each, I can do all my testing on an old 3GS and 1st-gen iPad, with the confidence that my app will look and work perfectly on their iPhone 4/4S and iPad2. Had Google enforced some sort of baseline device and support requirements, excluded some of the fly-by-night manufacturers, and actually provided first-party software updates instead of leaving users at the mercy of the hardware vendor, Android could have been a far more pleasant platform - but they fucked it up, and it's a bit late to fix it now. Sure, there are some outstanding Android devices out there, like Samsung's offerings, but only connaisseurs have them, so as a developer I still have to target the shitty knockoffs, lest I exclude 98% of the user base. Those few good Androids may as well be considered a separate platform...

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[BitZtream]

It's something that's written for the benefit of the writer rather than the reader.

Hit the nail on the head there. I fully admit to trolling from time to time and thats exactly why I do it as well, for myself, to 'stir up shit' so to speak.

Not that its an outstanding revelation or anything but I never really thought about it until I read your post. Insightful indeed.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[mattack2]

So you always developed your desktop apps for Windows & Mac & Linux too, right? To reach the most customers?

I actually *agree* with your point in theory, but realistically, development time/resources are limited, so people must choose which to develop for. Thus some people pick just one. (They don't necessarily always even pick the 'biggest market', since there have always been e.g. Mac developers even though that same "logic" meant you should only develop for Windows.)

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Yunzil]

When anyone brings it up when discussing a wide range of options and freedom in the market place you can know they are Apple fanbois.

Or it could be just someone who wants to know that their phone will work.

You never see the word applied to any other area, such as Automobiles, where there is even more diversity and choice.

Except you know you will have a seat to sit in while driving, a steering wheel (on the left in the US), and the gas pedal will always be on the right, and the brake will always be immediately to its left.

In Android world, would cars have random controls all over the place in the name of choice, variety, diversity, and freedom?

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[NicknameOne]

Why are you describing yourself in the third person?

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[pauljlucas]

The OS isn't software as you're thinking of it, but there most certainly is a set of design standards for a car that everyone follows more or less, and as such these cars are compatible with the rest of the world.

I know it isn't that way today which is why I posed CarOS as a hypothetical situation. And I do literally mean an OS for cars in the same sense that we have other OSs today. An OS that non-auto-employees could write their own apps for and upload them to your car. If it helps, just pretend there's a car that actually runs Android. You'd have the same fragmented situation for cars that you have for phones. That was my point.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[alostpacket]

The AC post sums it up well, there's more money in iOS for sure. I wouldn't dispute that. Thought certainly there is a different revenue model via ads vs paid apps. Still, I think the conclusion there is correct, though note they quote the flurry study.... To be honest, I have a hard time ever taking any *World article seriously though.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason why GP is accused of being a shill is that he consistently makes a first post in any story about Apple or Google, in which he explains in several paragraphs why Apple is awesome and Google sucks. It's not actually limited to iOS and Android stories, though the bullshit-o-meter on those is most visibly overloaded. Just check his post history.

So he's either an Apple shill, or a very dedicated (he's been doing that for over a year now) troll, or else he has a particularly bad case of fanboism where he literally sits in front of his MacBook 24/7 waiting for the moment the next story is out just so that he can make those comments.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[pauljlucas]

[T]here's more money in iOS for sure. I wouldn't dispute that.

What about the actual development? For Android, you have far more software/hardware combinations to code/test for than you do for iOS. Not only is developing for Android less money, but it costs more in terms of developer time.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[mkiwi]

With great power comes great responsibility. The difference is that Android largely endows the customer with that power, while Apple largely reserves it for themselves. There are benefits and drawbacks to both.

This quote reminded me exactly of the political system in the US.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[shutdown -p now]

I used to believe that Apple products "just worked" - I assumed that they don't "just work" for me because I am not part of the target demographic, being a developer (and therefore a power user).

Then I bought an iPad for my mom. A few days ago, I went through an experience of updating it to iOS 5.0, which ended up in it being messed up rather badly with some apps crashing on open - most notably, iBooks. Googling around, apparently it's a well-known problem, detailed descriptions of which include references to incorrect permissions in /var (heh) and the suggestion to factory-reset - indeed, nothing else worked, and restore from backup failed with some cryptic error message along the lines of "Cannot restore because error E008034 occured". So I had the joy of reinstalling all the apps and reconfiguring everything. In the process, I managed to erase all installed apps with a single misclick - apparently, if you have set up synchronization of apps with iTunes, and later disable it, all apps previously synced are erased from the iOS device in question - and had to redo it all again, which included about a gigabyte of in-app purchase downloads (English and Spanish dictionaries for a dictionary app).

Teaching her to use it was also a very excruciating experience. In Windows or OS X, you really only need to explain the general principles (things like files etc) and a few common UI elements - icons, top-level and dropdown menus, and context menus - and they apply to all apps. Ribbon was an exception, but not a hard one to deal with. In contrast, with iOS you're in a "twisted maze of apps, all different". Sometimes the "Back" button is in top left corner, sometimes in bottom left, sometimes in top right; worse yet, it's often labeled differently. Sometimes it's not there at all, and you're expected to switch between app screens by iconified tabs at the bottom or some other way. Some data entry screens are auto-save/auto-apply, others have some kind of "OK" button you need to tap to save what you have entered; usually it has blue background, but not always, and usually it says "Done", but not always. Deleting items from lists is done in at least two different ways - most often you tap "Edit" and then click on what looks like little stop signs (what is the mnemonic meaning of this?) on the right, but sometimes you instead need to open the item details screen by tapping on that item, and then locate a big red button saying "Delete" somewhere at the bottom (or sometimes at the top). Ironically, I never actually noticed all those inconsistencies, because I could always guess where the controls are based on past experience with numerous other mobile platforms; but for her, it was a PITA, as she had no such experience to relate to, and had to learn to operate every app differently because of all the differences described above.

The killer punch was when I explained to her what photostream is, and she asked me to enable it. Sure, it works fine - snap a photo on the iPhone, and in a few minutes you can view it on your iPad. Except when she accidentally pressed the button at the wrong time and snapped a bunch of pointless pics, and asked me to delete them. Guess what - you can't! just google for "photostream delete photos" to see what I mean, and to see all the ridiculous suggestions people asking this get on Apple fanboi forums. Needless to say, the feature was promptly disabled until Apple can do it right.

Next time anyone will try to convince me that iOS "just works" for casual users, they'll take an iPad to the knee.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Galestar]

Get a life. Its like you spend hours preparing your comments to articles before they hit /. just so you can be first post and spread your filth.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[svtdragon]

Well, my girlfriend has gone through two iPhones (the 3GS stopped working so she got the 4, which broke within 6 months). She's got a replacement iPhone4 now, and she's taken to calling it her lemon (hurr hurr apple, lemon, hurr hurr) and has fallen in love with her Xoom so she's planning on an Android phone next go'round.

Meanwhile, my 1.5+ year old Droid X is happily humming along next to my brand new shiny Galaxy Nexus, having never had an issue despite several cringe-inducing drops (once into a glass of water). Though the 3G -> 4G upgrade is totally worth it.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[siddesu]

It is the same with software, really. Bits (and most bytes) are standard, the languages used are similar enough, implementations for most algorithms exist in very similar libraries on virtually all platforms, and even the technologies that are used for communication and user interactions - from hardware up to the protocols are very similar.

The only thing a developer must do is to know these standards and apply them to his software so that his app works reasonably on all platforms. Basically in the same way Nissan or Porche know the specs for various car components by different manufacturers and various government safety standards, and build their cars around them.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[toopok4k3]

On Windows/Mac OS X/Linux front I wouldn't do the same. As you can see I only mentioned Android and iOS. Those two seem to be quite even in their marketshare. I didn't include Symbian or any other mobile OS like Blackberry, series 40, bada etc. I chose iOS and Android for the simple reason that they have the easiest SDK to use and good application markets. If I were to choose the platform with only the "biggest market" on my mind I'd have to include s40 (so called "feature phones") as an option. But it has way too many problems and the platforms future doesn't look so good, even tho it still has a massive amount of users.

Another matter of consideration is the application(s) you actually develop. If you plan to do millions of different kind of useless "place a hat on your friends" apps, choosing one platform is propably the best option. However if it's a bit bigger and more useful software which might get competing applications, you really want to fight them. Adding another platform for your application gives you an advantage over your competition. You can call it a feature and market it as such. "Works even on your Android phone/iPhone!"

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[toopok4k3]

Yes, that is the current situation. But how long until the closed approach of iOS starts to backfire? Current market share gains of Android seems to suggest that it's the platform to target due to it's huge potential. Right now ROI is better on iOS development, but i doubt it stays on top for long. But seeing that both iOS and Android will stay on the market for many years, choosing both as an active platform for your app might be the best bet anyway.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

Shut up, bonch. You're the biggest shill on here.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

This is what's great about the iPhone. You know what it is, and what you get. Andriod? Which one. Which version, made by which manufacturer, with which custom version, of which version, what hardware platform?

In other words, choice.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is one example. From the above "bonch" post:

Seamless experiences win out in the long term. We saw this when gaming moved from PCs to consoles in the 2000s, and it's happening now in the transition to the post-PC era.

It's the business model, +5 Informative by Overly Critical Guy:

Seamless experiences always win out over time. We saw it when gaming shifted from PCs to consoles, and now the industry is shifting from desktops to mobile devices. Fragmentation is a huge for users.

Deny the copy pasta if you want. Just know you're being intellectually dishonest in the process and supporting a shill.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[jensen404]

Most Automobiles share the same road system. iOS apps only have to be designed for a very limited number of systems.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[oakgrove]

You make him sound so sad and pathetic.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[sonicmerlin]

The A5 chip has yet to be jailbreaked. You also can't jailbreak an iOS device and thus access vulnerabilities with a rogue program.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[sonicmerlin]

Only problem with iPhone is the lack of text reflow in the browser. I don't understand why the vast majority of iOS users haven't been more vocal about this issue. Only in iOS 5 did Apple add the "Reader" function in Safari, but that doesn't work with forums like slashdot or article comments like with arstechnica.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[sonicmerlin]

The iPhone 3GS runs an underclocked CPU running at 600 MHz. It received iOS 5 and runs it perfectly. The iPhone 3G contained the exact same hardware as the iPhone 2G, the original iPhone released in June 2007. Until just a few months ago the 3G ran the latest version of iOS.

If the Galaxy S, a "halo" phone from a year back, can't run the latest version of Android, something is desperately wrong with Google's OS.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[sonicmerlin]

Given Siri is an extremely resource intensive program, and Apple has to constantly ramp up server support for the millions of new users it adds every week, it makes sense why they wouldn't immediately make Siri available on 100-200 million+ iOS devices simultaneously.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

So why does every single Slashdot story on Windows turn into a Linux love-fest? I don't see your stupid ass calling them out as anti-ms shills?

Apparently Google is sacred to trolls like you.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Psychopath]

The A5 chip has yet to be jailbreaked. You also can't jailbreak an iOS device and thus access vulnerabilities with a rogue program.

The iPad2, which runs the A5 CPU, certainly has an untethered jailbreak. Whether the vulnerability is in the CPU or the OS is irrelevant. Root is root no matter how you get it. You get root on an Android phone using similar methods.

In terms of secondary exploits, how about all the Jailbroken iPhones where sshd was enabled by default and the password was "alpine"? Remember the worm that changed wallpaper to Rick Astley? They could have done much nastier things than that.

I'm not saying this is Apple's fault since the secondary vulnerability was a result of the user purposefully running the initial exploit themselves. Most security vulnerabilities these days require the user to take some kind of action. What I'm saying is that the perception that the iPhone is more secure than an Android phone is simply a false dichotomy. They both have had vulnerabilities with every release. Otherwise there would be no jailbreaking/rooting at all.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[MrNiCeGUi]

So let me get it straight ... because he disagreed with you, you resorted to calling him douchebag, jealous, ignorant, unbalanced, creepy, fucked up and out of touch.

I believe that you just proved his point.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[fpu]

If I wish to purchase an Android phone with a 3" screen I can. Same for a device with a 4.5" screen. Hardware keyboard? Fast processor and lots of RAM? Cheap device with lousy screen, slower processor and less RAM? Samsung, LG, Motorola, HTC or something else? All of these options are available for me as customer, and we're just talking hardware here. If I want Touchwiz, HTC Sense or even Motoblur, I also have those options.

So, of course my "seamless experience" will be different depending on the device I choose to buy, but how is that different from any other gadget? The vary wildly in cost and specs, and any informed buyer should know that the device that costs 4x less will probably not be as smooth.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[R_Dorothy]

The "don't buy" argument is troublesome with Android at the moment - most people I know with Android won't buy from their last manufacturer and, across all these people, pretty much all the manufacturers are on the "don't buy" list. My next Android handset will be chosen on the basis of Cyanogen support first and formost.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[coolmadsi]

He's a subscriber, so it's not surprising he has first post. Is anything even remotely critical of Android on Slashdot these days automatically considered an Apple or MS shill?

The negative moderations of the OP are downright psychotic. There's nothing trollish about it at all, and it's backed by linked evidence. If only the majority of Slashdot comments put in the effort.

It looks suspicious becuase, in an article about having a standard visual appearence, they seem to be talking about hardware fragmentation instead (or at least not really mentioning the visual aspect - i.e. the main point of the article) and mobile web usage.

While it might all be very interesting, in this context it is argubly Offtopic. Not proof of a shill, but that doesn't make it any less offtopic.

The quote at the top was used to indicate that it is somehow going to increase fragmentation, whereas it seems to imply the opposite to me; the developer has more control over what they want their app to look like (either fit into the current phone theme so it doesn't look out of place, or use the standard one so it looks the same on all phones). Both are valid options, depending on how the developer their product to be used.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Phoghat]

+1 underated, used my mod points up yesterday.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[r_a_trip]

You now know EXACTLY what phone I have, and everything about it except the color and memory.

To which I say, why would I fucking care? Does my life become any different, because I know exactly what kind of phone you have? Does calling each other stop working if phones are not exactly the same? What is the importance of knowing whats inside the tin on someone elses phone?

Is it just really as simple and daft as "Look at me! I have an iThing!"?!? (I have an Android Thing by the way.)

Someone else got a new phone last week. It was the lastest Andriod. That doesn't even begin to narrow it down. I have no idea who makes it, what kind of hardware it's on, the version it's on, the custom version of that version. In other words, it's fragmented.

No, different shades of lipstick (UI customization) on top of Android doesn't make it fragmented. The Android Market and Google apps and services work the same on all of the Google certified handsets and tablets. The majority of the apps run the gamut of the platform over multiple versions.

That there are differences in hardware, doesn't make it fragmented either. If that was true, I'd have to claim the Mac is fragmented. If you tell me you use a Mac, I'd have no idea which hardware it is (MacBook, MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, Mac Mini, iMac, Mac Pro), the version of Mac OS X it's on (Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar, Panther, Tiger, Leopard, Snow Leopard, Lion).

That updates are not all that is not a sign of fragmentation. It's just bad customer support.

There is a lot of criticism to give on Android, but fragmentation (multiple similar, but incompatible versions) is not one of them.

Just a question, why do you care so much to know what kind of Android Thing your "someone else" got? I thought the beauty of cellphones was that if you have one, no matter what the make and model, you can call each other.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[roc97007]

> My next Android handset will be chosen on the basis of Cyanogen support first and formost.

...and for geeks like us, that's fine. (I'm with you on that!) But for those of my daughter's girlfriends in high school who haven't drunk the iPhone kool-aid, and don't happen to be geeks, just about the only solution they have when they get burned is to not buy next time from the vendor who burned them. Parenthetically, this is one of the ways the free market is supposed to work.

And... I'll let you in on a little secret... I like Android; I and all of my family members carry an Android phone (none of them Samsung) [1]. But if it turns out that there isn't any single vendor that puts out a viable, quality product running Android, then the OS deserves to be dumped on the crap heap of broken geek dreams next to all the other operating systems that were really cool at the time but failed from some stupid vendor decision. It's not up to *me*, or to *anyone*, to prop up an OS in the face of vendors grimly determined to screw up the product.

Fortunately, there are a few good phones out there, still. Daughter dumped her Galaxy for a Bionic and couldn't be happier. Wife has a Rhyme and, well, is ok with it. And I'm getting good use out of my Droid X. Now if Motorola and HTC piss us off, we'll look at different vendors when it's time to switch. That's the way the marketplace works. You don't just look at the vendor's latest offering, sigh, and say "oh, I didn't really want a USB port. The vendor knows so much better than I what I really want".

It's a phone. A tool. Not a religion.

[1] I still miss my Blackberry.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Dahamma]

Does the 3GS not have a microphone

I assume you are being facetious there - it *is* still a phone.. :)

Or is it just not capable of transmitting the recorded voice over a network connection the the Siri master computers?

Siri used to be a normal App Store app before Apple bought the company, and (from what I have heard) it ran fine on the iPhone 4 (non S). It does the speech to text on the device, and then sends the text to the server... so there could be some (probably minor) performance issue/delay on a 3GS. But I would imagine in the end it's mostly about marketing/differentiating their newest phone.

There aren't any official APIs yet, but there is definitely a lot of Siri hacking going on right now... technically it's still beta, so it is conceivable Apple will open up official support for it eventually...

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[cynyr]

you are confusing iPhone running iOS, "Samsung Epic 4g" or "Tmobile MyTouch 4G" running android. Hardware and software are different.

Anyways, once you get past that you be all sorted out... I know exactly what i'm getting with i say "myTouch 4g" or when I say iPhone 4GS.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

You now know EXACTLY what phone I have, and everything about it except the color and memory.

To which I say, why would I fucking care? Does my life become any different, because I know exactly what kind of phone you have?

Whoosh!

Way to miss the entire fucking point of his post, big guy. That's an impressive level of obtuseness you've demonstrated there. Bravo.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Rich0]

Yeah, but they didn't stop selling them 15/20 months ago. For something like the Nexus One dropping support for ICS is perhaps excusable even if it falls short of the iPhone support model, because it was only sold for a short time 1.5 years before the last update. However, the Galaxy S was sold in huge numbers over a considerable time and rebranded numerous times. So, the clock didn't really start ticking until maybe a year ago.

From my standpoint the clock for support starts ticking AFTER you STOP selling something. Supporting something while you're still selling it just makes your product not worthless while it is still on the shelves.

And as much as we all like to bash MS keep in mind that they support their desktop OSes for upwards of 10 years after they are already obsolete. You can still get windows updates for XP, after all.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[exomondo]

But we are talking about a new version of the OS here, not maintenance support, which is a separate issue. Samsung - or any other OEM - obviously can't know that the hardware they produce today will run the OS developed by another company well over a year in the future.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Rich0]

Well, they don't generally offer maintenance support either. How often does your desktop-based web browser get a security patch, and how often do you get them for your android browser? Do you think this is because the android browser doesn't contain any bugs? It wouldn't surprise me if most android phones more than a few months old have unpatched remote exploits.

I think the issue with new versions is that Android has been much more cutting edge than iOS in general, making hardware upgrades more important. I'm not sure I'd rather get upgrades for my two year old phone if it means that it still does basically the same stuff it did two years ago...

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[exomondo]

Well, they don't generally offer maintenance support either. How often does your desktop-based web browser get a security patch, and how often do you get them for your android browser? Do you think this is because the android browser doesn't contain any bugs?

Of course, this was never about maintenance though, this was about old hardware getting a new OS.

I'm not sure I'd rather get upgrades for my two year old phone if it means that it still does basically the same stuff it did two years ago...

Well yeah, if it still does basically the same stuff and that's enough for you there's probably no reason to upgrade.

Re:This still doesn't address fragmentation

[Anonymous Coward]

feel the karma burn. how dare you question bonch and his minions.

Err

[recoiledsnake]

Will the users be allowed to change the theme?

They're still restricting the OEMs and carriers ability to customize the theme's look by using the Android Market stick.

That's still good if it makes the UI consistent though, compared to iOS and WP7, the Android UI is all over the place.

Re:Err

[Anonymous Coward]

Will the users be allowed to change the theme?

"This is not banning custom themes; instead it is merely giving developers a consistent theme that is guaranteed to be installed if they want a consistent look across all devices."

I think you missed that sentence.

Re:Err

[DrGamez]

It's depressing when my mom asks me to do something on her new Verizon Android phone and I stare at it in confusion for more than 5 minutes. I've owned a Nexus One since they were sold though so I guess it's my fault in thinking the phone companies wouldn't slather their layer of ugly paint on everything.

Android is nice because it allows the companies selling/branding the phones to do it their way.

Unfortunately they are better at stealing money then they are designing UIs.

Re:Err

[Anonymous Coward]

I know it's a lot to ask of a first post to actually read past the title of the article. So, right beneath the first quote is the answer to your question:

This is not banning custom themes;

Re:Err

[Overly Critical Guy]

They're simply mandating support for a default UI, which isn't as a good as an official standard, but it may act as a de facto standard, which is at least a step in the right direction for Android.

Re:Err

[Atzanteol]

If asking a stupid question that's answered within the article isn't a reason to mod-down a post then what is? C'mon mods, do your thing!

Re:Err

[DragonWriter]

They're still restricting the OEMs and carriers ability to customize the theme's look by using the Android Market stick.

No, they aren't. Carriers and OEMs can still use different themes -- even provide them as the default theme. TFA (and this is even in TFS) explicitly notes that all Google is doing is requiring that the Holo theme be available on all Android 4.0+ devices with access to the Market.

They aren't requiring it to be the only option available, or even the default theme. And, in fact, TFA (and TFS) also highlights that Google is also improving the facilities that exist to allow apps to fit in with whatever theme is in use.

That's still good if it makes the UI consistent though, compared to iOS and WP7, the Android UI is all over the place.

And it still will be with this change, and that's, I suspect, intended. Google wants to guarantee that there is a common choice available to users, but still wants to wide range of freedom in how Android is used (by users, carriers, and OEMs), rather than tight monolithic control.

Re:Err

[dreemernj]

Think of it this way - if they didn't use Android, there is a very good chance they would still have a horrible UI. But it would then be a phone with a horrible UI and no vast library of Apps. That doesn't make what they are doing good. But it's at least a silver lining.

Re:Err

[GameboyRMH]

Users can still change the theme, it says so right in TFS, it's just setting a standard default theme like most OSes had from day one.

Re:Err

[swanzilla]

It's depressing when my mom asks me to do something on her new Verizon Android phone and I stare at it in confusion for more than 5 minutes.

That is quite common with Tier I family tech support. Suggest your mom escalate incident to Tier II.

Re:Err

[k_187]

The problem is that having the Holo theme installed is no guarantee that it will be used on the phone.

Re:Err

[sootman]

Yeah, but will the users be allowed to change the theme?

Re:Err

[toddmbloom]

One would hope since "Holo", like most Google designs, is hideous.

Re:Err

[robbyb20]

hilarious...but this is the problem with BYOD type stuff(and Android fragmentation). I work at a company that allows people to buy their own phones and bring them in and get email set up on them. I cant tell you how many different ways there are to get to the same settings on an android phone. Its in stark contrast to the way iOS devices work since they are all the same. Like it or not, this is how it is with android phones.

Re:Err

[Anonymous Coward]

Using the same devices from the same manufacturer will give you basic UI consistency. If you do not use the same company's products as the rest of your family, then that's your collective choices.

For example, if you buy a Samsung BADA phone, you'll be right at home compared to a Samsung Android phone.

Re:Err

[Anonymous Coward]

I cant tell you how many different ways there are to get to the same settings on an android phone.

I can - one. Settings is your entry point. The key is in the name.

Re:Err

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention: Will the app be able to "forcibly" switch to Holo despite the user's choice otherwise, and will that confuse the user?

Re:Err

[shutdown -p now]

Android is like Windows in that regard. When you buy a phone from any popular vendor, you can be assured that it'll come preloaded with their crap, same as with Windows PCs sold by HP, Dell etc. The important part is that 1) you can buy a phone that is not so preloaded, or that can be stripped of it - if you know what you want; and, 2) it serves as a common platform (API, ABI etc) for app developers - they mostly target the demographic that buys crap-laden phones, but their apps will also work on yours.

Re:Err

[mattack2]

It's depressing when my mom asks me to do something on her new Verizon Android phone and I stare at it in confusion for more than 5 minutes. ...so I guess it's my fault in thinking the phone companies wouldn't slather their layer of ugly paint on everything.

Android is nice because it allows the companies selling/branding the phones to do it their way.

Maybe I'm missing something and that is your point, but aren't those two paragraphs in contradiction with each other?

Re:Err

[DrGamez]

They are, I should have phrased it better. It's tragic that I can't understand wtf they are doing with their OS, BUT I do respect Android's decision to let carriers do what they wish with the OS.

I know that Skyrim is a really great and neat game but I will never play it because they (WRPGs) are the most boring genre I can think of.

Re:Err

[sonicmerlin]

If it weren't for Google dumping a free OS onto the market and giving up net neutrality to sign a deal with the devi...Verizon, several competitors with fantastic mobile OS's wouldn't have gone bankrupt. Palm/webOS and Nokia/Meego are the two most obvious. Likely anyone who had thoughts about entering the mobile OS industry gave up once Google gave away their iOS clone for free. Now only an entrenched giant with guaranteed profits from another industry- Microsoft- is willing to give the OS market a shot. Google deprived us of a renaissance of OS and device innovation for the sake of unbridled greed.

Re:Err

[Anonymous Coward]

This is always be like that.

The day Linux or any other alternative OS gets more mind-share, rest assure we will have OEM specific distributions full of crap, just like they do with Windows and Android.

Re:Err

[dreemernj]

It is foolish to assume WebOS would have been a huge success if only Android didn't exist. I think WebOS is amazing, but Palm was entirely capable of destroying anything they touched. Plus, I actually consider it better for an open source mobile OS to win out over a closed source one.

And MeeGo? Is one open source linux based mobile operating system really that much more evil than the other open source linux based mobile operating system? How do you know the decision to drop MeeGo in favor of a new mobile OS that focuses on HTML5 based application development wouldn't have happened even if Android didn't exist?

Android is not the be-all-end-all. But it is certainly not the mark of the beast simply because it is experiencing success right now. The fact that it is competitive does not preclude the success of other competitive products.

What's this?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm starting to see the foundations of a wall. The first steps down a slippery slope. Welcome to the real world, Android fanbois.

Re:What's this?

[drosboro]

Really? Having a consistently-available UI is "a wall"? Or even the "foundations of a wall"? I think we've forgotten what a "walled garden" actually means.

Re:What's this?

[wanderfowl]

There's no wall here at all, just a foundation. You can still do whatever the heck you want with your device as a consumer, and this is just saying that manufacturer's shouldn't completely break the underlying UI structure, even if they want to supplant it with some theme of their own. "Do what you want with the field, just don't salt the Earth so nobody else can use it".

Re:What's this?

[wanderfowl]

There's no wall here at all, just a foundation. You can still do whatever the heck you want with your device as a consumer, and this is just saying that manufacturer's shouldn't completely break the underlying UI structure, even if they want to supplant it with some theme of their own. "Do what you want with the field, just don't salt the Earth so nobody else can use it".

"manufacturer's themes", that is. Not a plural apostrophe.

Re:What's this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Without exception, every single time anyone has used the word "fanboy" (regardless of how you spell it), they have really meant "someone who likes something more than I do".

Re:What's this?

[badboy_tw2002]

No, it generally means "someone who likes something different from the thing I really really like in the same domain". See sports teams, etc. Generally its a result of it being a zero sum game (Only one team can win the super bowl/world cup/whatever), whether that means there's an actual limitation or a perceived one (I only get one phone so my choice is the best, or "My mom said I can only get one console, so that one that I have is obviously the best"). Those of use who recognize that one can often have more than one flavor of ice cream/console/operating system/mobile device/programming language/text editor are perplexed by the behavior, but understanding the base motivation helps a bit.

(Except of course for people who like the Dodgers. They objectively suck, and their fans are doo doo heads. That's a fact.)

Re:What's this?

[scot4875]

No, I think it's generally applied to people who are incapable of seeing the flaws in the things they like, and cannot have a rational discussion about them. It's people who somehow have an emotional investment in their chosen product being "the best" and anyone who chooses differently, for any reason, is "wrong".

It's perfectly fine to have a favorite, it's not perfectly fine to be blinded to alternatives.

--Jeremy

Re:What's this?

[m.ducharme]

Except that this is patently untrue in at least one instance that I can think of: Apple products. The most vicious Apple-bashing posts I've ever read were from Apple fanboys who got their feelings hurt when they found out some bug was unfixable or a key feature was changed to some other behaviour. They (perhaps I should say "we"? But I don't see myself as a fanboy, despite having a lot of apple gear) are also quite capable of having reasonable discussions about the failings of their favourite products when not being attacked by "outsiders" and fandroids. You're right that it's the emotional investment that makes the fanboy wars so nasty, but don't make the mistake of believing that these people all are incapable of seeing the flaws in the products they've invested their emotions in. It's less about "blind faith" and more about "let's keep our dirty laundry in the family."

Re:What's this?

[governorx]

Except it is true and the drivel you posted shows that you don't understand the difference between a fanboy and an upset customer.

Re:What's this?

[m.ducharme]

Except you didn't read my post properly. What I was saying is that the fanboy often is the upset customer. The person who comes to slashdot to viciously defend his favourite phone is often the one screeching loudest about some flaw in the phone or its os on the support forums. Just because he doesn't acknowledge his phone's flaws here doesn't mean he doesn't acknowledge those flaw to himself (and subsequently rage about those flaws in a friendlier forum).

Shit, I just been trolled, haven't I? Ah well.

Re:What's this?

[badboy_tw2002]

I think you're in the wrong - we're trying to quantify "fan" and "fanboy/fanboi", which is a much much more radical, rabid version of a fan. The type of behavior you'll see when presented with some evidence of a flaw or weakness in comparison to a competitor is flat out denial or applying spin (aka resolving cognitive dissonance). Given the emotional ties, there's no way they can then just go and admit in another forum that "ok yeah, that sucks and product X is better". They truly believe what they're saying. Otherwise that's just trolling or flat out lying, and I don't think those are quite the same behaviors.

Re:What's this?

[m.ducharme]

But it's the emotional ties that make them so vitriolic about the flaws they do find in their favourite product. Ah well, it would take some actual research to sort out who's right, and I for one won't be doing that.

Re:What's this?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's okay, I think the people who insist on using the term "walled garden" have forgotten exactly how easy it is to get mauled by a rabid bear in the "wilderness," too, so I'd say that makes it roughly even.

Re:What's this?

[PoopCat]

Then that should be "manufactures' themes", since there are several manufacturers, each with their own themes ;)

bad subject line

[roc97007]

Holo theme is not mandatory, only support for the Holo theme for devices that use the Android marketplace. So applications can be written that use the Holo theme with some confidence that they will display correctly. This is a good thing. It gives developers a minimum standard look and feel that is required to work.

Re:bad subject line

[Hentes]

Most GUIs on PC work perfectly accross different look and feels why is it such a big problem on mobile?

Re:bad subject line

[viperidaenz]

On a PC if your theme makes buttons larger, you can resize the window to make everything else fit. You can't resize your smart phone screen. mobile screens are also much smaller making borders, padding and fonts have a bigger relative impact on screen real estate

Re:bad subject line

[mattack2]

Holo theme is not mandatory, only support for the Holo theme for devices that use the Android marketplace.

That's said in the very first line of the summary. Sure, technically the subject is incorrect, but isn't it de facto correct for a large portion of big name brand Android phones?

Halo theme

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought it read "Halo theme".

The Problem...

[eno2001]

...for me has always been that any OS or device I've used has been riddled with bone headed design decision. Things that break easily with normal use. UI elements that are the wrong size or in the wrong place. Poor choice of fonts. In all honesty, you'd have to be pretty simple minded to love every product that comes out of a single company or every bit of software that comes from the same developer. I mean look at the Ford vs. Chevy guys. That's the ultimate outcome of customer loyalty: a lack of thinking. Given that most of us here are rugged individualists, it's a natural assumption that we're going to want to do things our own way. Sometimes that will be just giving in an saying, "Oh the heck with it, Apple makes a pretty decent device and I don't have the time to fiddle". Other times it will be, "Good lord Microsoft can't code a decent UI to find their way out of a virtual box of nothing. Screw this I'm going back to (insert better OS choice for your needs here)". Show me a person who says, "Everything that (insert company or developer) created has always been perfect and I've had no need to change a thing" and I'll show you a liar. Config files, preferences, options, themes, control panels all exist for a reason: nothing is perfect.

Re:The Problem...

[Anonymous Coward]

Given that most of us here are rugged individualists

lolwut?

Re:The Problem...

[eno2001]

You know what I mean. Teddy Roosevelt.

Wrong Holo...

[Anonymous Coward]

And here I thought that Spice & Wolf's Holo was going to be seen on every Android device. Certainly would've made my day brighter to see her smiling face everywhere. :(

UI fail

[Anonymous Coward]

Colors are not the problem. The problem is apps designed for phones running on tablets, or apps made for tablets running on phones, or basically any app designed for one platform running on a different one with a different UI. Touch-screens can be single or multi-touch, most apps don't adjust to that. There are even apps that were designed to be used with a multi-button mouse that are being run on touch screens, where the buttons are too small, scrollbars are irrelevant, etc., etc.

UI fail is getting more and more common since developers are assuming what sort of hardware will be used, often incorrectly.

I don't farking care about the colors, but when you want to scroll by swiping, and the app only uses scrollbars, UI fail. The buttons are too small because you're on a tablet but the app thinks it's on a phone, UI fail.

On the desktop, there are "accelerators", which are keyboard shortcuts. Nice, until you don't have a keyboard. I can't even get the mouseover text on xkcd because I don't have a mouse.

Re:UI fail

[viperidaenz]

or when everything moves from sliding to pinch-zoom and I want to use my phone in one hand like every other phone is capable of - UI Fail. Sorry iOS5 fan boys but what works for a two handed device like a tablet (sorry I mean Pad) doesn't always work for a one handed device like a phone

Subsidized

[Dan East]

The problem is that the carrier's business model is to sell you a new phone every six months.

Why in the world would they do that? The carrier's primary goal is to get customers is to commit to the most expensive 2 year contract possible. The insane overage rates are really just to prod customers into upgrading to more expensive contracts is all. Smartphones require the most expensive contracts because they consume voice minutes, SMS texts and data more than any other type of phone. Thus carriers subsidize the phones to give customers the equipment to consume those resources. The ideal customer is one with a modern enough smartphone to require an expensive contract, who that keeps that same smartphone as long as possible.

Does your monthly rate decrease after your contract is up? Does it decrease if you buy your own phone straight out? Of course not. Yet the carrier makes even more money off of you because you're still paying a monthly rate that factors in the subsidization cost of the phone.

So to sum it up, there are only two reasons a carrier wants to put new cell phones in their customers' hands. To upgrade customers with regular or premium phones to smartphones that require a more expensive contract, and to keep the more demanding customers from switching to other carriers because they offer more cutting edge hardware.

Re:Subsidized

[Anonymous Coward]

Agree, my smartphone consumes more data than my old feature phone, but my SMS and phone call volume have stayed the same over time. I'm going to guess that it is that way for most people. A smartphone doesn't enable one to make more phone calls or do more SMS texting.

Re:Subsidized

[NatasRevol]

Or reason #3, minimize churn by getting your customers in a new contract before the old one expires. By getting them to lust after a shiny new phone.

Re:Subsidized

[NatasRevol]

Really? So texting on a numeric pad is just as easy as on a keyboard?

Re:Subsidized

[viperidaenz]

Carriers in NZ don't seem to follow the USA convention of "get everyone on a 2 year plan". Half the mobile market is prepay, most of the monthly contracts are for companies. There have been times where 1 and 2 year terms come with higher monthly charges, making the "free phone" not very free. The commerce commission probably forced the end of that. Some carriers offer a discount on your monthly plan instead of a phone subsidy if you sign up for a year.

They are probably loving this phone smart phone fad though. Data prices are astronomical. $20 per Gb if you prepay it, $500 per Gb "casual rate" is pretty normal.

Re:Subsidized

[Abreu]

Ever since getting a smartphone, I make much less calls and sms messages than before.

That's because people can be reached through IM, Whatsapp and Email, which is much cheaper than a call or an SMS

Re:Subsidized

[Tim C]

Does it decrease if you buy your own phone straight out?

I can't speak for the situation in the US, but here in the UK you can get SIM-only contracts that are generally substantially cheaper than SIM-and-phone ones. But no, once your contract is up your tariff doesn't automatically get better; however threatening to leave can have that affect.

Re:Subsidized

[Politburo]

Many 'feature phones' had/have keyboards. And even those that didn't predictive text had gotten to the point where it wasn't hard to quickly input a message.

Confused fogey here...

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought the whole point of themed GUI toolkits was to separate the policy and details of presentation graphics from the applications. Does all of this suggest that the application actually requests or controls the theme, rather than the user? The last thing I want, as a user, is some application overriding my UI preferences such as theme and displaying differently!

To me, the proper market restriction for quality would be that all applications must be usable with a set of test/regression themes which exercise the extremes and corner cases of themes, such as differing contrast, brightness, and saturation levels in the palettes. This would include test themes geared towards color-blind users, etc. It is the app which should be forced to be theme-neutral, not the phone or user which should be forced to have a fixed theme!

Re:Confused fogey here...

[Anonymous Coward]

Does all of this suggest that the application actually requests or controls the theme, rather than the user?

That's how it's done on iOS and Android. An app controls its own look-and-feel. On stock Android, users don't get to make a theme preference. Some custom ROMs allow for theming; I'm assuming that they change the Holo theme (and other system themes) itself, so any apps using it will also change in appearance (and apps not using it won't), but I'm not positive about that.

Bingo

[jareth-0205]

*Thankyou*. I'm an Android dev too, and it constantly astonishes me that the form of "fragmentation" that most of the tech world complains about (OS version number) has nothing to do with the form of "fragmentation" that actually causes me any sort of real problem (screen aspect ratios / device bugs / differing OS implementations).

Re:Bingo

[WankersRevenge]

*thankyou* I'm an ios dev and it's nice to see some rationale discussion about platforms instead of the typical feces tossing match that typically occurs here.

Android reduces fragmentation.

[danbob999]

The main fragmentation that interest developers is the one between platforms, not within a platform. If Apple and RIM both switched to Android, it would be much easier to develop for mobile devices. They add a lot of fragmentation by continuing to push their proprietary platform. Google actually removes fragmentation by giving away for free an OS that anyone can use. There would be much more fragmentation in the mobile world if HTC, Motorola, Sony, Samsung and LG all pushed their own OS like Apple and RIM are doing.

Re:Android reduces fragmentation.

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, the Apple faggots would much rather solve that problem by just banning other companies from making phones entirely....

Re:Android reduces fragmentation.

[517714]

Absolutely! Competition is bad! Idiot! Of course some developers want few platforms to work on, that way they only do the job once and sell the same old shit forever. On the other hand as long as there is a moving target, the developer has a job developing for the new and improved OS and sells something new to someone who bought his program for his last phone. In other words, the developers you cite should be ignored because they do not know what is good for them. As long as manufacturers are trotting out significant improvements every year, fragmentation is a GOOD thing.

Google does NOT give it away. There are lots of strings attached, strings that were not there before, as this example aptly demonstrates. Since the iPhone predates the Android phone, your complaint about fragmentation should be lodged against Google rather than Apple. Of course RIM beat them, and Microsoft beat RIM, and Palm beat Microsoft and ... all the way back to the IBM Simon. Though I think MS Windows Mobile ca. 2002 Audiovox Thera / Toshiba 2032 is the first modern smartphone.

This action by Google reminded of Princess Leia's, " The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." I do not see this as the solution to anything, it is posturing (marketing) by Google so that some dissatisfied Android customers will go for another ride.

Re:Android reduces fragmentation.

[Scowler]

"Proprietary platform" does not mean to developers what you think it means.

Either the OS has clear and open, well-documented APIs that are trustworthy and predictable when you invoke them, or it does not.

Re:Android reduces fragmentation.

[danbob999]

Of course I didn't really suggest that Apple should switch to Android. I was just showing how that whole Android fragmentation debate make no sense if you use or support an OS that can only be used by a single vendor. HTC can't switch to iOS. Apple, however, could reduce fragmentation by switching to Android (even if iOS was released before Android).

Competition is good. You don't have competition without some fragmentation.

Re:Android reduces fragmentation.

[danbob999]

By proprietary platform, in this case, I meant single-vendor platform. WP7 is proprietary too but everyone can buy it. There would be a lot less fragmentation if everyone switched to WP7. This has nothing to do with the APIs or the quality of the documentation. You can have very little fragmentation but still have very poor APIs for developers.

that look is not Holo!

[Anonymous Coward]

it's Maemo!

Copy Paste from Bonch / Overly Critical Guy

[chrb]

This still doesn't address fragmentation, +4 Interesting by bonch:

Seamless experiences win out in the long term. We saw this when gaming moved from PCs to consoles in the 2000s, and it's happening now in the transition to the post-PC era.

It's the business model, +5 Informative by Overly Critical Guy:

Seamless experiences always win out over time. We saw it when gaming shifted from PCs to consoles, and now the industry is shifting from desktops to mobile devices.

These were both first posts in each respective story.

I would like to know what are the +/-'s to themes

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm talking about wouldn't it be better for the platform from a development point of view if the phone manufacturers came up with a strict UI guide for shipping themes this would give the flexibility to create their own branded one but also allow some platform stability for devs.
I don't know anything about android development so don't blast me for not know just looking at this from the outside.

this will insure...

[nurb432]

That even more devices wont have default access to the market.

Mod Up

[deesine]

The stink coming from Bonch doesn't originate from his t-shirt.