Microsoft Patents Bad Neighborhood Detection

PolygamousRanchKid writes with these lines culled from InformationWeek: "With the grant of their US Patent #8090532 Microsoft may be attempting to corner the market on GPS systems for use by pedestrians, or they may have opened a fertile ground for discrimination lawsuits. ... Described as a patent on pedestrian route production, the patent describes a two-way system of building navigation devices targeted at people who are not in vehicles, but still require the use of such a device to most efficiently route to their destination. ... For example, the user inputs their destination and any constraints or requirements they might have, such as a wheelchair accessible route, types of terrain they are willing to cross, the option of public transportation, and a way point such as the nearest Starbucks on the route. Any previously configured preferences are also considered, such as avoiding neighborhoods that exceed a certain threshold of violent crime statistics (hence the description of this as the 'avoid bad neighborhoods' patent), fastest route, most scenic, etc." Having lived in some high-crime neighborhoods, the actual feature (versus the patent) sounds like a great idea to me.

Comments

Very subjective

[Anonymous Coward]

What you call a bad neighborhood, I may call home. Where do I send the money for the lawsuit?

Re:Very subjective

[Samantha Wright]

RTFS: "neighborhoods that exceed a certain threshold of violent crime statistics."

Re:Very subjective

[couchslug]

Crime rates don't care what you call home, and if I'm travelling _I_ don't care what you call home.

If you live in a high crime area, you don't need me as a visitor. You have no complaint.

Re:Very subjective

[gatkinso]

You live in Baltimore?

Re:Very subjective

[alphatel]

Use this tool to figure out which route the rich kids with cell phones are taking and relieve them of their property.

Re:Very subjective

[Penguinisto]

If you live in a high crime area, you don't need me as a visitor. You have no complaint.

Well, unless he is a criminal, in which case he does want you as a visitor.

On a more serious note though, shying folks away from certain neighborhoods will decrease business to those areas, depressing them even further and, well, encouraging more crime. If this ever caught on, it would open a basket of crap. What if Bing goofed and blacklisted the wrong neighborhood? What if the bad neighborhood is trying to get some kind of renewal going, and businesses there desperately need the income? This would only delay things further, perhaps to the point of failure.

I get the whole safety concept of it, but honestly, this begins to meddle in a lot of things that really shouldn't be meddled in.

Okay, case in point: Highway 71 through Kansas City. Going southbound, it is very easy to miss a vital turn-off, and get deposited into one very rotten neighborhood. OTOH, during the day the folks are friendly enough, and I was able to ask directions, get gas, buy snacks, and one time to get a bad tire replaced. Once the sun went down, that place was not where you wanted to be (nearly everyone I spoke to there said as much), but during the day it was no problem. It eventually got so that I intentionally made stops there if I was passing through during the day, because quite a few of the business owners were very glad to see a stranger's face, the prices were reasonable, and they were a hell of a lot friendlier than the ones in better neighborhoods (let alone the truck stops).

As someone who spent a good share of his childhood living in such areas, I'm not put off by the fact that often I was often the only caucasian-skinned guy in some of the establishments, so I guess my lack of anxiety may be a factor in all of this.

In all though, that's a whole lot of subtle nuances that I sincerely doubt an algorithm could pick up on, and I suspect that a lot of otherwise good people are going to get screwed over by this thing.

Re:Very subjective

[Anonymous Coward]

Add accelerometers and detect "GPS A approaches GPS B - sudden impact accelerations - GPS B begins sharing coordinates with GPS A". Block GPS A and update violent crimes map (also, call 911).

Re:Very subjective

[mwehle]

this begins to meddle in a lot of things that really shouldn't be meddled in.

WTF? My ignorance of crime rates is something that shouldn't be meddled in, because I have an imagined obligation to support businesses I know nothing about? Your choice to support businesses in what you describe as "one very rotten neighborhood" is *your* choice. I'd like to have access to crime data, if available, before I walk through an area that I'm unfamiliar with. If, as you suggest, there is some significant difference in crime incidence during daylight hours as opposed to darkness, I'd like to know that, also. The idea that merchants who are unknown to me are somehow entitled to my ignorance of crime rates, though, is bizarre.

Re:Very subjective

[Penguinisto]

I'm talking about meddling in areas such as renewal projects, shopping patterns/habits, and in general helping folks who live in that neighborhood rise above the bad situation they're in. Consider also this: What if the system were abused? What if neighborhoods (or rather, townships) were offered an 'out' from the blacklisting for a fee?

Also, what of the opposite? I can tell you right now that a black man in Harrison, Arkansas after dark is in greater physical danger than he would ever be in Compton, California. Would his particular GPS indicate that maybe he should keep driving until he sees a safer town for him (say, Sprinfgield, MO)?

Finally, since crime statistics are compiled on an annual basis, and often change from area to area each year, what you'd get is outdated at best, so it may well be useless to you in either event.

If, as you suggest, there is some significant difference in crime incidence during daylight hours as opposed to darkness, I'd like to know that, also.

Indeed, but I doubt the patent's stated goal would cover that, which is why I mentioned it.

Re:Very subjective

[bfandreas]

Yeah, places can change a lot between day and night. And simply assuming you will be mugged because you are in what's supposed to be a rotten neighbourhood will make you ooze fear and contempt.

I have a similar story only slightly more idiotic.
A colleage and I had a had a 6 months gig in Derby. Since Nottingham is only a stone throw away we decided to have a night-out in this astonishing but also slightly infamous city. Now, I wouldn't call my colleage street-smart. So there we were. At 10pm in some dark inner city alley in Notts sometimes November. And we were a bit lost.So he unfolds right then and there, I kid you not, a street plan. In the dark alley. 10 metres away from two shady figures hanging out in a dark doorway. As I inched away from my colleague fully prepared to leg it and leave him to his Darwin award they started to saunter towards us.
-Hey there, mate!
-Goot evenink(My colleage had a very thick German accent. The thing is, Germans are not as popular in England as you might think. Shocking, I know...)
-You lost? That's where I took over. Survival instincts, I guess.
-Actually yes. There's supposed to be a place that has live music at this hour but we can't quite locate it. *shows the name that I had written down*
-Yep, I know it. It's a cool place.
-Say, you lot look bored. Come with us. My treat.
-Ok.By the way, mate, unfolding a map like you just did is not very clever.

Turned out they too had watched the latest episode of Top Gear and we prepared a list of preopsterous complaints the BBC would get for JC driving that Range Rover up that hill. Bullshit bingo British. The complaints turned out to be even beyond our wits having been sharpend by multiple pints of bitter.
Easy as that. They could also have been 'orrible muggers and I swear to god, I was prepared to run as hell. Might have had to if we had mentioned that we quite liked Derby and wanted to see how the other half lives.

tl;dr:
Don't do anything idiotic.Be relaxed but watchful. Bring a mate and make sure you get a head start in case you have to leg it. As my dad used to say: Son, If you go on a journey, don't bring anything you aren't prepared to lose.

Re:Very subjective

[mrclisdue]

...might as well hold up a billboard saying "You can has Win7 tablet"...

That should stop them dead in their tracks.

There should be an app that can make your Android tab look like a Win7 tablet.

Re:Very subjective

[bfandreas]

I know the broken window theory. It's disputed because it mixes correlation with causation. And recent studies don't quite support it. I remember there was a story about this a couple of years ago but I can't quite remember what it was.
But I do remember being surprised since it sounded so plausible.

Re:Very subjective

[Forty Two Tenfold]

+1 Insightful, -1 Whoosh

Re:Very subjective

[ColdWetDog]

Indeed
Need I point out that intently staring at a brightly lit mobile studying how bad your surroundings are might not be such a good idea? Hell, I'd even mug you myself even if I can't fathom why I would want a Windows phone. Might as well nail your ears to your knees just to make sure you get a better view of your bum.

Ah, no wonder you folks don't need guns in the UK - you've got Windows Phones as a deterrent.

I bow to your superior defenses.

Re:Very subjective

[qbast]

I'm talking about meddling in areas such as renewal projects, shopping patterns/habits, and in general helping folks who live in that neighborhood rise above the bad situation they're in. Consider also this: What if the system were abused? What if neighborhoods (or rather, townships) were offered an 'out' from the blacklisting for a fee?

Then this information also should be publicized. Preferably with list of of places that used that opt-out. Sorry, you are not going to convince me that ignorance is better than knowledge.

Also, what of the opposite? I can tell you right now that a black man in Harrison, Arkansas after dark is in greater physical danger than he would ever be in Compton, California. Would his particular GPS indicate that maybe he should keep driving until he sees a safer town for him (say, Sprinfgield, MO)?

Hey, here is your idea for a patent and app. Go for it.

Finally, since crime statistics are compiled on an annual basis, and often change from area to area each year, what you'd get is outdated at best, so it may well be useless to you in either event.

There are many places that stay bad for decades. And I don't think there is so much fluctuation month-to-month to invalidate the idea.

If, as you suggest, there is some significant difference in crime incidence during daylight hours as opposed to darkness, I'd like to know that, also.

Indeed, but I doubt the patent's stated goal would cover that, which is why I mentioned it.

So because it is not perfect and does not provide every possible information, the idea is worthless?

Re:Very subjective

[anonymov]

Gah, the irony, it burns.

You (and others) do realize that by saying that ranking neighborhoods by _crime_ levels is _racist_, you're implying "It's racist, because crime is for nig^W^W^Wrates are correlated to racial composition"? There's enough examples of racism here, idea in the original article isn't one.

As a side note, "Born in slums, achieved everything by his willpower and intellect" is not a bad image for a politician.

Re:Very subjective

[chooks]

Modded funny, but as someone who just recently moved to BalDimore from the midwest, this is more insightful.

My wife and I relied heavily on our GPS units to find places when we first got here. We would joke that the software seemed to have a "get crack" option enabled, as it routed us through some fairly scary neighborhoods.

Re:Very subjective

[bfandreas]

Being lame I respond to myself.

I don't know if the broken window theory has any merit. And frankly that's besides the point.
As a matter of fact it is a good idea to keep an area clean and well maintained. And I'm not talking about sidewalks and crumbling facades. I'm talking about sending building inspectors into the houses and taking a good look at business papers from local shop owners.

Also misdemeanors should result in local community service. If you are caught urinating next to some house then you should spend 20 hours with a shovel and a plastic bag in your own neighbourhood. It may sound petty but once you spent a hunderd hours picking up litter around your block then you will sure as hell don't drop your Big Mac wrappers around there.It doesn't matter if this really does stop crime. But it will give the inhabitants a feeling of investment in their block.

Also non-functional street lights are out of the question. A city council can't simply pick where it wants to react promptly. There is no valid excuse for broken streetlights whatsoever. And if the place becomes unruly during the night then patrol it. On foot. Don't tolerate any misdemeanor. That includes making a racket during the night when most people want to sleep. No fines. No week in prison. 20 hours community service. If you do not have enough coppers for it then have private security patrol the area in groups of four. They'd call any petty thing in since they can't book anybody. But they should be cheaper. Just don't hire one of the usual rent-a-Nazi outfits.

This may or may not make real crime go away but at least it's worth the effort.

That's basically what Rudy Guiliani did. And in hindsight it is pretty obvious. If the city council gives up on the city then the inhabitants will, too.

Philadelphia

[Average_Joe_Sixpack]

Instead of a dot representing the city on a map it should be a skull and crossbones.

Re:Philadelphia

[Penguinisto]

Sorry, but Detroit called 'dibs'.

Re:Philadelphia

[AngryDeuce]

Man, I grew up in Philly, and even 30 years ago I remember kids getting shot and killed at the playground near my house over their fucking shoes, crack pipes in the gutters on the way to school...

I can't even imagine what things are like now. Glad I got out of there...

Re:Philadelphia

[l00sr]

Actually, Philly would probably be the killer app (ha) for this app, since it's not really neighborhoods so much as specific blocks and street corners where you're likely to get jacked. It would be even better if the app would ring in your pocket and say, "Hi--it looks like you're headed towards the projects. Are you sure you want to continue?"

Political Correctness?

[acidradio]

Why should we all have to suffer at the hands of being politically correct? A bad neighborhood is what it is - BAD! It So that someone in that "bad" neighborhood isn't "offended" why should I have to risk my safety?

I wish something like this would have existed when I chose my current house. The neighborhood looks great during the day but once it becomes dark all the bums and the freaks come out. They are all drunk or high and they do things out of "boredom" (as a police officer told me). Like vandalize my car and leave bloody handprints on the glass.

Re:Political Correctness?

[nurb432]

Its because those indicators will often fall along racial lines, and for a while now here in America you have been forbidden to tell the truth.

Re:Political Correctness?

[Pharmboy]

I select realtors of similar demographics to myself, and bluntly inform them I want "no/few fucking neighbors, and none who are poor, and none who don't look like me".

Since we are being politically incorrect, let me just say that you are part of the problem, you are not the solution. And you aren't even unique. Living in a small town in NC, I see plenty of assholes just like you. You can call it "Voluntary Segregation" all you want, but it simply boils down to bigotry. You think your race is better than any other race. It doesn't even matter what race you are.

There is a broad line between free association and "I'm not willing to live near anyone who is a different color than me", and you have obviously passed it, well into pure racism. The individual doesn't matter, and it isn't even one race, you simply hate everyone who isn't exactly like you. I'm thankful you are not my neighbor.

I could give you an analogy, but I don't want to break Godwin's Law.

Re:Political Correctness?

[HungWeiLo]

I wish something like this would have existed when I chose my current house.

There was. It's called "why this house was cheaper than the other same sized ones a couple miles down". The market has accounted for crime and "ghetto-ness" of a neighborhood long before this or Redfin or Zillow or the Internet.

Re:Political Correctness?

[xjerky]

"Precisely how are those neighborhoods supposed to clean up if people are being constantly scared away by folks like MS? "

It's not our job to bring money to businesses in Ghettos. Change comes from within.

Re:Political Correctness?

[stdarg]

I wonder if any cities have been sued for not putting up warning signs for these areas. It's really no different than not putting up a "caution - wet floor" sign in a supermarket. The city knows certain areas are bad, and they have a duty to let people know.

Re:Political Correctness?

[vlm]

He obviously doesn't like .... solely because they are different than he is. That is pretty much the de facto definition of bigotry.

Um, no, not at all. Sorry. I've checked. For example, according to the wikipedia entry, bigotry requires intolerance, animosity, hostility, and mostly comes with world views and ideologies. In stark contrast he has the ultra watered down, borderline unrelated "he obviously doesn't like".

Now don't go getting cause and effect all backwards here. I agree it is quite possible that if someone feels intolerance, animosity, hostility, due to some kind of ideology, it is quite possible they also do not like being neighbors with those people. But the opposite is quite possible.

Lets try a non-racial example. I seem to like women with the same hair color as my hair color. That is a spectacular distance away from "intolerance and hostility"

Re:Political Correctness?

[couchslug]

I harm no one. I look out for MY advantage. My advantage doesn't require someone else be DIS-advantaged.

Explain what problem that creates. I suggest, "none". I deny no one habitation. I don't exclude anyone. At all. I move where I am welcome. High-crime areas have different demographics than low-crime areas.

  If I select by demographics, I win. It's, as I said, about me. I'm spending money I earn to live where I like. If you like spending your money differently, then buy differently as you are free to do.

I don't live with White Trash either. As I said, I wish to live among those "like me", not poor folks of any race/color/creed/ethnicity. I've seen how they do each other and I can take a hint.

It pays to ask probing questions and do a good recon wherever you move. My personal security and my home value are what I care about.

I don't care about what anyone else wants to do and I defy you to articulate why I should sacrifice what benefits me.

Re:Political Correctness?

[Pharmboy]

Crack a book. Certain demographics are more likely to get arrested for crimes, even when they are no more likely to commit the crime. Drug usage is a prime example of having the same percentage of black and white abusers, yet blacks have an arrest rate of 4x that of whites.

Re:Patents on Algorithms

[Samantha Wright]

Or a man of the night. Or several men of the night who are all too happy to see you.

Also, they're patenting the idea of the algorithm "that say don't go this way... etc." Not an actual algorithm. No methods were harmed during the making of this filing. I would call that worse. Here's the patent so you can wince for yourself.

Another stupid patent

[TheLink]

Google maps already has a feature that allows you to avoid tolls or "by foot" versions.

Add info from stuff like this:
http://www.nwgangs.com/gang-territory-maps.html
http://maps.google.com/maps/user?uid=200807321660978094818&hl=en&gl=us&ptab=2
And so where's the innovation?

I personally think patents are costing society more than the benefit they provide. Sure a few patents might be worthwhile, but when most of them are crap, what's the point? It's as stupid as throwing money at a game which provides worse odds than most casinos. A few wins don't make up for all the losses.

You want to reward and encourage _people_ for innovating? Award Prizes for Innovation instead. It's always easier to see if something was innovative and valid from hindsight than from an overworked patent examiner's POV. You could have different areas and different categories, some chosen by "randomly selected citizens", and some chosen by "experts in the field". A bit like the Hugo and Nebula awards. That way you get some balance.

Re:Another stupid patent

[TheLink]

Developing routing algorithms to adjust based on public crime reports

If you understand routing algorithms you'd know that there's no big difference between avoiding X because it's blocked and avoiding Y because "it's in a bad neighbourhood" or "has a huge traffic jam" or "a crime just occurred" or whatever. Plenty of algorithms and even code written years ago.

So tell me again what innovation Microsoft came up with? Fooling patent examiners doesn't count.

Re:Another stupid patent

[TheLink]

No it's not working. What I see is a system that rewards people/companies who patent obvious crap.

Jim gets a monopoly on cheese sandwiches, Jane gets a monopoly on tomato sandwiches, Joe licenses from both and gets a monopoly on cheese and tomato sandwiches. They cross license with each other, and nobody else gets to sell those sandwiches. For what benefit to society? All when any cook could come up with the idea and make any of those sandwiches if the situation ever demanded it.

Any intelligent programmer, with the idea, could probably do it pretty easily.

So which is it:
a) Patents drive innovation because, by encouraging disclosure, other innovators don't have to waste time re-inventing the same things over and over.
b) Patents stop others from copying our "obvious" stuff so _easily_.

Someone was claiming a) while you're claiming b). If b) was true, it won't cost much time and $$$ to re-invent the same thing.

Nowadays it seems for most patents, the actual technical cost (time+money) of reinvention is much lower than the cost of fighting patent lawsuits, or paying licensing fees. Too often they've already independently reinvented your noninnovative stuff, maybe even before you released your product.

The real impedance to progress is someone managed to patent it first and collect toll from everyone else.

Sometimes the idea is the hard part

When it comes to most modern-day patents, the idea certainly isn't the hard part.

Do you really think NONE of the people who came up with the "A" to "B" routing stuff on Google Maps ever thought of something like this? For fun they already came up with '"kayak" across the pacific ocean' years ago.

Maybe you need to hang around more with very intelligent and creative people. To them, ideas are not rare gems that only appear once or twice in their lifetimes. They have more good ideas than they can ever implement. Just because they didn't do it or patent it doesn't mean they didn't think of it. They may have 100+ other ideas to do first, or the "idea" might be just some obvious step to them that they wouldn't bother noting down.

The obvious ideas you talk about are the equivalent of the "crack eggs and separate egg contents from shells" step when making a cake.

Exploitable

[jawtheshark]

If I were a mugger, I'd use it to locate 'good' neighborhoods, and start mugging people there. A device to find new fat hunting grounds. I'd love it.

Re:Exploitable

[reboot246]

If you were a mugger (or breaking into homes) in my neighborhood, you'd get your ass shot. That's why good neighborhoods are good. We don't tolerate crime. We don't make excuses for the criminals. We report crime and testify in court when the time comes. We vote for leaders who care about the safety of the citizens.

It has nothing to do with color. There are people of nearly every race living in my neighborhood. The difference is that they're good people, not thugs.

Everybody knows what it takes to turn a bad neighborhood into a good neighborhood. Either do it or quit your bitching. You want the title - live with it.

Only As Good As The Data

[Rob Riggs]

Good luck making that work. The government crime data that this feature will be using is usually out of date and highly massaged by police departments and officials with a stake in the crime rates. See, for example this NY Times article.

Re:Patents on Algorithms

[Samantha Wright]

Read the patent. I linked to it. Their "method" consists of specifying junk like the wireless spectrum used. It's as wrong as it sounds.

Re:Cyber-white flight

[AlphaWolf_HK]

What we have is a legal requirement to not choose who we buy our goods from based on race or minority status of the owner/employees.

That's not true, you're allowed to buy your goods from whoever you choose, for any reason you choose. That is freedom of association.

Re:Good idea, if it's never been done before.

[YrWrstNtmr]

We all know there'll be lawsuits with people complaining that Bing Maps is avoiding minority neighborhoods.

People have tried that for years with pizza delivery services. We had a large map on the wall, with several areas blocked off. If you live in that area..no pizza for you. The store simply says "We don't deliver to that neighborhood." Discrimination, racism, lawsuit ensues.
If you're aware of any lawsuits that have been successful, I'd like to hear about them.

A few possible problems

[dHagger]

I can see a few possible problems with this.

1) Lag/delay in statistics. If the feature is abused as described in some of the posts above, an area considered safe can be unsafe for a while before the statistics catches up with reality. The opposite is also true; an area that has been "cleaned up" may be considered unsafe for a while.

2) Different types of violent crime. Not all violent crimes occur in the streets; domnestic violence is (at least where I live) considered a violent crime, and it is also a lot more common than unprovoked violence on the streets. At least that is what the police says - in the statistics they are bundled.

3) Seasonal / time of day differences. I live in a city that is flooded by tourists in the summer. Violent crimes increases significantly during those few months, and most of those crimes occur late evenings / nights when people at clubs/bars/pubs are drunk. Still, statistics for specific areas are compiled on a yearly basis.

4) In sparse areas, a single crime can have a huge impact in the statistics. Looking at statistics compiled "per capita", the area where I grew up had a 200% increase in violent crimes one year. It went from one case of domnestic violence to three - or 20/1000 per capita.

Re:Patents on Algorithms

[Samantha Wright]

Simple. The patent claims are "making at least one inference", "estimating", "determining an importance", "resolving conflicts"... and so on. Those are not methods. I don't see any equations or anything of the sort. This isn't as specific as the traditional kind of patent (e.g. the proverbial shoe heel) that relies upon a concrete description of what is being protected.

The last time I spoke to an IP lawyer for my university's technology transfer office, he made the following point: when you patent something, you're giving up the secrecy of your method so that it can be put under legal protection. What Microsoft has done is attempted to prevent people from combining GPS instruments with crime statistics. They haven't exposed how they actually do what they're doing, or planning on doing; only the obvious consequences of what's necessary from the original idea, that any programmer could work through in a few minutes. That's not how patents are supposed to work.

Re:Patents on Algorithms

[ExploHD]

Samantha Wright is right; they don't put up an algorithm that you could jot down, but instead describe having the trip computer avoid areas that you don't want to go or that you're not allowed to enter. It even ends with:

It is, of course, not possible to describe every conceivable combination of components or methodologies for purposes of describing the subject specification, but one of ordinary skill in the art can recognize that many further combinations and permutations of the subject specification are possible. Accordingly, the subject specification is intended to embrace all such alterations, modifications and variations that fall within the spirit and scope of the appended claims.

That little section there takes the rest of the cake with them.

Re:Good idea, if it's never been done before.

[YrWrstNtmr]

You could simply say that that particular district is supposed to be covered by another branch.

If pressed, we simply said "There is too much crime in that area. We've had too many robberies. Sorry." It wasn't a matter of distance, that was an area closer to the store than other places we delivered to. Simply too much risk of the driver getting robbed. Even a few specific addresses were blackballed. If I were the manager, it would be the same for an urban crackhouse, or a rural meth lab, if my guys were getting robbed. Sorry, no pizza for you.
And yes, there were a few lawsuit attempts. I've never heard of a successful one.