Raspberry Pi Gertboard In Action

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Raspberry Pi Gertboard In Action

Posted by Unknown on Monday January 9, 2012 @02:25AM from the would-you-like-some-gpio-with-that dept.

An anonymous reader writes with news from Geek.com on an expansion board for the Raspberry Pi. Quoting: "In the middle of December last year the Raspberry Pi Foundation made a surprising announcement that not only would we see the $25 PC released in 2012, it would also be getting an expansion board ... called the Gertboard, and is being developed by Broadcom employee Gert van Loo in his spare time. When completed, it will allow Raspberry Pi owners to play around with flashing LEDs, electric motors, and a range of different sensors. It effectively takes the $25 Raspberry Pi beyond just being a very cheap PC. There's a video of the Gertboard already working which demonstrates the 12 LEDs being lit up and the board powering an electric motor more than capable of lifting something like your garage door."

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Neat! by JoeMerchant · 2012-01-09 02:35 · Score: 4, Funny

Take that, Arduino.
1. Re:Neat! by glop · 2012-01-09 02:53 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  They have 13$ arduinos... That said, I prefer a Linux machine that can run python, java, apache and everything and then just talk to some IO library or something to take care of moving motors etc.
  But that's because I am a software guy....
2. Re:Neat! by Joce640k · 2012-01-09 02:54 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Yeah, programming under Linux is way easier then programming an Arduino...
  
  --
  No sig today...
3. Re:Neat! by RicktheBrick · 2012-01-09 03:13 · Score: 2
  
  Will this lead to an automated house. Every device in the house should be communicating with a computer. For instance when on turns on a faucet the computer should know there is a reason for water flow so that if there is water flow without a reason it should be able to shut the flow off. I think there should be a computer in every room as long as it is on a network. They should be able to effectively maintain a house and save more energy than they cost.
4. Re:Neat! by rickb928 · 2012-01-09 03:16 · Score: 1
  
  Certainly makes it a lot simpler for the script kiddies to help you make use of your Pi/Gert, eh?
  I'm much more interested in Arduino for blinkenlights. All sorts of gizmos out there to Wifi your video to whatever, like wallwart PCs. And they are no more or less secure than the distro they got running.
  Of course, for $25-50, you can cheaply find out you don't care to code securely after all, unless you are already, in which case this is cheap cycles for ya. Wax on...
  
  --
  deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
5. Re:Neat! by drinkypoo · 2012-01-09 03:22 · Score: 1
  
  Did you forget to escape your sarcasm tags or something? It's much easier to let someone else handle all the I/O for you and you just pull in libraries to perl or python or what have you.
  
  --
  "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
6. Re:Neat! by JoeMerchant · 2012-01-09 03:25 · Score: 2
  
  Did you forget to escape your sarcasm tags or something? It's much easier to let someone else handle all the I/O for you and you just pull in libraries to perl or python or what have you.
  http://qt.gitorious.org/qtonpi
7. Re:Neat! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 03:27 · Score: 1
  
  Real question is: what's the power consumption? I have some home monitoring stuff that runs 24x7 with under a watt consumed. Can the rasp pi get down that low?
8. Re:Neat! by CastrTroy · 2012-01-09 03:31 · Score: 2
  
  My neighbors toilet tank cracked while he was on vacation. Result, tons of damage to the house and months of renovations. Luckily, he was insured. Another neighbour had tenants move out and hook up the old washer incorrectly and experienced similar flooding. Anyway. I really had to wonder. A $5 (retail price most likely produced en masse) could easily have detected that water flow was excessive for that particular unit, and shut off the water within minutes, causing minimum damage. For around $50, you could probably outfit an entire house with sensor on the toilets, washing machine, dishwasher, hot water tank and one at the main inlet to detect abnormal water flow. I've looked around and haven't found anything great. Most things are purely mechanical, and prone to not working correctly, or are based on just sounding alarms when the floor is wet. Water damage due to burst pipes or faulty is a proplem that could be easily solved, yet it seems like nobody is bothering to create a device to do it.
  
  --
  
  Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
9. Re:Neat! by JoeMerchant · 2012-01-09 03:31 · Score: 2
  
  save more energy than they cost.
  Ever pay a contractor to run a wire?
10. Re:Neat! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2012-01-09 03:34 · Score: 2
  
  Depends on the application. Arduinos make twiddling a few logic-level pins and some other useful interface-to-the-world logic quite simple, which is fantastic for certain applications(Linux devices aren't totally impossible in this regard, there are usually some GPIO pins hiding somewhere, and a 'sound card' is a quite capable ADC/DAC if you can manage to get reasonably non-mangled values out of whatever drivers where almost certainly designed for making noises, not sensory applications...).
  
  On the other hand, while larger systems have (arguably) been getting increasingly hostile to simple sense-and-control, it sure is nice to be able to spin up some huge, luxuriously wasteful interpreter and bang away in the high level language of your choice, complete with all sorts of fun network and persistent storage stuff...
11. Re:Neat! by ArhcAngel · 2012-01-09 03:44 · Score: 1
  
  Seeing as you can already get this I'm certain this isn't the first time the thought had occurred to someone.
  
  --
  "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
12. Re:Neat! by psergiu · 2012-01-09 03:46 · Score: 1
  
  On RPi you will be just able to:
  echo "value" > /sys/class/gpio/...
  
  --
  1% APY, No fees, Online Bank https://captl1.co/2uIErYq Don't let your $$$ sit in a no-interest acct.
13. Re:Neat! by randomErr · 2012-01-09 03:52 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  From http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/260
  
  Model B owners using networking and high-current USB peripherals will require a supply which can source 700mA (many phone chargers meet this requirement). Model A owners with powered USB devices will be able to get away with a much lower current capacity (300mA feels like a reasonable safety margin).
  
  --
  You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
14. Re:Neat! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2012-01-09 03:54 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  I suspect that(while they will probably be of assistance to geeks brewing their own) this will suffer the same fate as all the prior 'automated house' widgetry(a market at which they've been hammering for bloody ages now, with comparatively little success).
  
  Suitably motivated geeks, with some major time and pains, and more money than they initially expected to shell out, will indeed hammer out home automation systems. Fundamentally, home automation is a series of really-not-all-that-ghastly problems in AC wiring, switching, sensors, and logic. It will be utterly non-inter-operable with anything else(save perhaps the geek's cellphone of choice, for which he will build a website/app, and possibly an appliance or two into which he will hack directly. Nothing else.)
  
  Joe User, on the other hand, will discover that specific home automation products(eg. cheap programmable thermostats) can be purchased at any hardware store; but more sophisticated systems either pretty much suck, enough that they are really just starting parts for dedicated geeks(eg. X10), or can be purchased, from an installer, in one big, shiny, expensive, bespoke, proprietary package. It'll start at $10,000, be really slick, and interoperate with absolutely nothing that isn't itself.
  
  The various utility companies attempting to deploy "smart meters" for some combination of PR, easier meter reading, and customer behavior metrics will utterly ignore this, since it doesn't comply with their alphabet soup of semi-open-for-interoperability's-sake-but-not-at-all-talked-about-outside-the-industry-or-intended-for-you-to-know-anything-about wireline and wireless protocols(their status seems rather analogous to the state of various 'standards' in the wireless telco wars. Some of them are just totally proprietary, dreamed up by some company large enough that its service area qualifies as a large scale deployment. Others, GSM-like, are standardized cross-industry things; but are really not intended to be fiddled with by end users.
  
  All in all, no difference:
  
  There will still be nothing resembling manufacturer support for appliances that can report and control intelligently(as opposed to just having an external relay cut them on and off, with the exception of a few horrible manufacturer gimmicks that will probably be badly broken and tied to some manufacturer 'portal'. Geeks will continue to homebrew functional, if slightly rough, systems; and it will still be possible to buy very shiny, tightly integrated, totally proprietary widgets for large buildings and custom installs of various sorts.
  
  What dogs 'the automated house' seems not to be a lack of cheap computing power(wireless and fast CPUs certainly helps; but ASM coded PICs communicating over some primitive serial bus through your house's telephone wiring back in the late 80's could have handled it, with some sort of frontend/master-control widget similar to the x86/DOS based CNC machine control systems that persist to this day. Expensive? Yeah. Doable? Yeah.) It seems to be a combination of limited incremental benefit(power just doesn't cost that much, in many locations, doing it manually works OK, for most tasks, setup is currently complex, many locations charge residential customers the same for on and off peak power, so who cares?), complete lack of anything resembling standardization(minimal standardization of even simple things like remote control switches, never mind any sort of direct intelligence built into appliances that can be exposed. PCs have it, in a somewhat clusterfucked way, with ACPI; and some individual devices, like higher end furnaces, might have a manufacturer specific control panel on an HTTP server somewhere; but everything else is largely silent), and some degree of sinister intent by certain entities(the intentions of the power-rationing, 'consumer-metric'-gathering, and similar 'smart-meter' entities are largely not in your interest...)
  
  It's a pity: If it were a primarily technological problem, technology would have curb-stomped it by now. It isn't.
15. Re:Neat! by JoeMerchant · 2012-01-09 04:19 · Score: 1
  
  I'll say it again:
  Ever pay a contractor to run a wire?
  My last call to a "professional Licensed electrician" got me a fairly reasonable quote of $150 to run a wire from the breaker box through the attic to a new hot-tub installation. Then I asked him to make it 10 gauge instead of 12, and the quote increased to $250, when a box of 10 gauge wire that would make the run only cost about $30 (and the 12 gauge cost about $25).
  Now, take these same guys and hand them a drawing that involves more than 3 types of conductors, what do you think happens?
  With contractors as gatekeepers on home construction and renovation, it doesn't matter that the industry can't unify home automation. If you're not running the wires yourself, $10K for the components is going to be the cheap part of the system.
16. Re:Neat! by sgt+scrub · 2012-01-09 04:19 · Score: 1
  
  And that information should be logged so you can sell the information to advertisers. ...er wait.
  
  --
  Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
17. Re:Neat! by RackinFrackin · 2012-01-09 04:28 · Score: 2
  
  They have 13$ arduinos.
  If you're making more than one device you can go even cheaper if you just buy a bare ATMega328 + a couple of cheap components. Granted, you also need a USB to TTL cable which is another $20 or so, but you only need one of those.
18. Re:Neat! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 04:30 · Score: 0
  
  Let's not arduino this or arduino that, it's not the same! unless you manage to run linux on an arduino (with fpu please)..
  but i'm sure you can hookup an arduino as well
19. Re:Neat! by LWATCDR · 2012-01-09 04:32 · Score: 2
  
  Probably not. The CPU in the Pi is much more powerful than the Arduino.
  Throw in that the PI has a Keyboard and HDMI out as well and things change a bit. With the Arduino you must have PC to program it. With the Pi you just need the Pi with a keyboard and monitor.
  So lets say you wanted to make a video game with some custom controllers, the Pi would be a much better solution.
  If you want to make a small weather station that runs on solar power and talks over ZigBee or even a low power HAM radio link with morse code. Than an Arduino might be the best choice.
  If you want to use PSK over the radio link them back to the Pi.
  If you want a device to steam audio from your samba share on your NAS the Pi makes a lot of sense.
  
  --
  See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
20. Re:Neat! by thejaq · 2012-01-09 04:37 · Score: 2
  
  Knock off nokia phone data cable (CR42): $2.68 + free shipping. About $4.00-$20.00 to say 'USB TTL' or want some type of connector. In addition to arduinos I talk to a guruplug with one, an unfortunate POS device that will most assuredly be dumped in favor of a pi.
  
  http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=nokia+ca+42+cable
21. Re:Neat! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 04:40 · Score: 0
  
  IF this device materializes in mass produced quantities, it would have me re-thinking my obsession with Arduino. But only SOME of the time...
  $25 is about the same price as the official Arduino (tho you can get Barebones Arduinos for $13... and you can build a breadboard Arduino for HALF that... and it gets even cheaper if you can use an ATTiny45 or ATTiny85 MCU).
  The Arduino isn't just about low price... it's also ease of use, with a bundled IDE that takes care of most of the details.
  Arduino certainly isn't my favorite IDE... and I'm on the fence about Processing language.. ... but then again I'm a programmer NOT an artist or designer, and those are the people specifically targeted (enabled) by Arduino 1.0.
  (On the other hand, ARM development's always been intriguing to me, but I've been put off by expensive ARM "development boards" which have a short manufacturing lifecycle...)
  Also, there is no way this device can compete with Arduino (or PIC) in terms of power-management.
  Arduinos are often used as sensor relays, RF, and data logging.
  Properly configured, you can run such an Arduino for MONTHS on a single AA battery cell (see JeeNode at Modern Device), or run it off tiny energy harvesting devices like a $9 solar panel and small LiPo charger.
  I don't see this as a major game changer for systems/sensor/interactivity. Raspberry Pi looks awesome, but it needs more if it is to compete with Arduino's strengths...
22. Re:Neat! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 04:49 · Score: 0
  
  Arduino programming language (Processing) is very similar to Python or interpreted C.
  (OK, include Perl in there if you like.. but whenever someone compares code to Perl, I think they mean it is "unintentionally obfuscated").
  And yeah, programming an Arduino IS easier than Linux (at least in MY opinion... I do both).
  It will be interesting to check out those Qt and Python/Perl/etc packages on Raspberry... but you know what sucks about Linux programming? Portability. You can't assume your Python/etc. developed under Ubuntu or Fedora will just work under Raspberry.. probably not. As you say, interpreted languages handle the I/O for you... and I say that's where Arduino shines brighter. You know the Arduino code will run on any standard Arduino, as is. Your Python code might not, especially if you are the type to use modules/libraries.
  Can't tell you how many times I've dealt with a call that this or that script fails on this or that Linux. There's only so many ways you can defensively code against "is this library not included" before you say "eff it" and copy/paste that library right into your code.. defeating the purpose of the lib.
23. Re:Neat! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 05:01 · Score: 0
  
  I think you are describing the status quo -- not where open source hardware and software is taking us. There was a good conversation about this on the 12/31/11 Adafruit podcast.
  Open source projects like Tweet-a-watt is a proof of concept. The design is public domain. That's PRECISELY why Crestron etc. won't touch it, but in the end some other open hardware manufacturer WILL... and that manufacturer will bundle in just enough friendly support to start pulling market share from Crestron. At that point you'll see the proprietary vendors adopting open APIs and open protocols just to keep their platform viable (and also put off the inevitable).
  I worked with embedded developers 11 years ago who LAUGHED at Linux as an embedded platform saying NO WAY would it ever compete with vxWorks: no self respecting developer would use it, no "standards", poor memory utilization. the latter 2 things only need incremental fixing JUST ENOUGH for the first statement. Nowadays, Linux is given equal footing with vxWorks on many projects, and vx licenses have come WAY down to the point where you decide to you pay a little extra manufacturing for extra RAM on Linux, or pay extra for the license? It's pretty common to ship rev 1 and 2 on Linux, and only go to xvworks when the product's a runaway seller and vx becomes worth the effort (just look at the revision history of any Linksys etc. router)
24. Re:Neat! by Xenkar · 2012-01-09 05:03 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  I used to be an electrician, but then I took an arrow to the knee. Just kidding, a bone tumor broke off, caused an false aneurism, and doctors played copay ping pong with me for a month. I was left unable to work due to nerve damage.
  But before that, I used to work with 14 gauge wire, 12 gauge wire, and 10 gauge wire. It is significantly harder to route 10 gauge wire. Even more so if you already have insulation and drywall up. Perhaps things will be different with the 10 gauge equivalent graphene wire gets mass produced at a reasonable price, but until that day you'll need to accept that electricians will charge you extra for the inconvenience of having to deal with 10 gauge when 12 gauge probably more than met the hot tub's requirements.
25. Re:Neat! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 05:13 · Score: 1
  
  I have an Arduino, and I can't wait to get my hands on a RPi. I'm imagining having the Pi linked to the Arduino so you can program it directly from your bot (or whatever), just by plugging in your monitor and keyboard. This Gertboard looks quite interesting as well, and the idea of being able to control multiple Arduino or gertboards, from a PI, and offloading some of the processing that the Arduino can't handle well sounds very sexy indeed. I can't wait until they ship, and see what creative people come up with using this stuff. Really, they're almost cheap enough that building your own robot army doesn't seem so far fetched anymore.
26. Re:Neat! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 05:15 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Arduino programming language (Processing) is very similar to Python or interpreted C.
  No, arduino programming is NOT very similar to python at all. Its not even close.
  Arduino's native programming languages are C, C++ (with some limitations), and AVR assembler. That's it. The confusion comes from the fact Arduino purposely attempts to obscufate the fact you are using realatively low level languages behind a nice, high level API. None of these are close to python.
  When I first started using Arduinos, it took me a week before I figured out the imaginary "script language" everyone talks about, which I could never seem to find, doesn't actually exist. Its completely imaginary. Its 100% marketing and obscufation for C and C++.
27. Re:Neat! by Dunbal · 2012-01-09 05:51 · Score: 1
  
  Every device in the house should be communicating with a computer.
  Yes, a computer connected to the internet. With potential government backdoors and rootkits. Every device in your youse. 1984 here we come. You are the dead.
  
  --
  Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
28. Re:Neat! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 05:52 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  You know, to set the value of a GPIO pin on an Arduino you just make a single call to digitalWrite(). To trigger a stepper motor you have to toggle the pin's value, which requires (gasp!) two calls to digitalWrite. The equivalent under Linux involves opening the GPIO device file and making multiple read and write calls. For anyone who's ever run a stepper motor using an Arduino the overhead involved in all that boggles the mind. Really, ease of access to the GPIO pins is the least of your considerations when comparing Arduino to RaspberryPi.
  For embedded applications involving motors and servos the Achilles heel of Linux is real-time control. If you Google around for projects which use Linux boards for motor control you'll find people discussing wobbly servos and problems with interrupt latency. There are hacks which add a real-time layer under Linux but in general they have not been embraced by the Linux distros and are not well supported.
  I've done a few Arduino projects involving stepper motors and servos. My latest project requires much more than an Arduino can deliver so I'll be using a BeagleBoard running Linux. The motion logic will be offloaded to an Arduino and the two boards will talk to each other over a serial line. This sounds complicated but it will be much easier to maintain than a custom RTOS Linux hack and will give us complete and control over the timing aspects of the motors and servos.
  Frankly, comparing Arduino to something like a BeagleBone or RaspberryPi baffles me. They are very different devices with very different applications. For most of my Arduino projects Linux would have added nothing of value. And for my latest project a bare Arduino wasn't nearly powerful enough. Entirely different worlds.
29. Re:Neat! by cmat · 2012-01-09 05:52 · Score: 1
  
  Or just shut the water off while you're on vacation.
  
  --
  -- Humans, because the hardware IS the software.
30. Re:Neat! by element-o.p. · 2012-01-09 06:00 · Score: 1
  
  On or off, true or false, Arduino or R. Pi, Linux or Windows, PC or Apple. Sheesh! Sometimes techies can be so....binary! :D
  
  I've had a lot of fun tinkering with the Arduino, but I'm stoked about the Raspberry Pi, too. I've got a few projects in mind where even a netbook would be too big, but an Arduino isn't powerful enough. A BeagleBoard or BeagleBone would work, but since the Raspberry Pi is a third of the price, I'll probably give it a try first.
  
  --
  MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
31. Re:Neat! by Joce640k · 2012-01-09 06:18 · Score: 2
  
  It's much easier to let someone else handle all the I/O for you and you just pull in libraries to perl or python or what have you.
  It's much easier to not have to learn an entire operating system, command line, compilers, etc., just to flash a few LEDs.
  
  --
  No sig today...
32. Re:Neat! by Joce640k · 2012-01-09 06:23 · Score: 1
  
  Yep, whenever I try to run something written in Python I always seem to have the "wrong version" installed. Then when I get the "right" version the library I want to use doesn't work with it.
  Arduino isn't perfect but I can grab any piece of code off the web and be fairly sure it'll work.
  
  --
  No sig today...
33. Re:Neat! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 06:27 · Score: 0
  
  I don't know what kind of hot tubs you are installing but most pull somewhere around 50 - 60 amps. 12 gauge can handle 20 amps. If you are running these with 12 gauge, you have exceeded the wire's current carrying capacity by almost 3 times!
34. Re:Neat! by Joce640k · 2012-01-09 06:27 · Score: 1
  
  Probably not. The CPU in the Pi is much more powerful than the Arduino.
  So? How much CPU do you need to flash some LEDs, open the garage door, or whatever?
  (PS: There's ARM based Arduinos...but that's another price level so I'll leave them out of this)
  
  So lets say you wanted to make a video game with some custom controllers, the Pi would be a much better solution.
  OK, I'll give you that one. The Arduino's video output is a weak point.
  
  --
  No sig today...
35. Re:Neat! by Joce640k · 2012-01-09 06:29 · Score: 1
  
  My neighbors toilet tank cracked while he was on vacation.
  The secret is to close the main valve when you lock the house up...
  
  --
  No sig today...
36. Re:Neat! by tibit · 2012-01-09 06:30 · Score: 2
  
  This should be informative. Wiring (that Arduino uses) is just a C++ framework. You can of course use it and pretend you have something "simple", but it's really not, and once you hit a compiler error, you better knew C++.
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
37. Re:Neat! by JoeMerchant · 2012-01-09 06:31 · Score: 1
  
  My particular hot tub was right at the limit of current and distance where 12ga was "acceptable," rather than pay the $100 premium, I routed the wire myself, so, I well know how stiff it is. In my particular circumstance (big attic, bathroom wall still open, breaker box pretty reasonable to access), it might have been an extra 15 minutes effort to wrestle with the thicker wire.
  If the electrician just didn't want the job because he didn't like working with 10 gauge wire, he picked a good way of getting his wish.
38. Re:Neat! by tibit · 2012-01-09 06:35 · Score: 1
  
  I concur. Even stranded #10 hook-up wire is at the limit of what I'm designing my power electronics for; #8 is comparatively unwieldy. Pulling a cable with two solid #10 conductors and probably a #12 grounding conductor is a royal pain I'm sure. I'd charge more too, were I an electrician.
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
39. Re:Neat! by tibit · 2012-01-09 06:38 · Score: 1
  
  Given that standard Linux is not a realtime system, and that to do anything worthwhile you have to write device drivers because there's no direct access even to gpio, I'd say that comparing it to vxWorks is like apples to trolleys, not even oranges. I looked at realtime linux and it seems to be a mess. There's no single, well supported implementation, it seems, and it looked like it'd be more of a liability, long-term, to depend on it. In the end we went with TwinCat.
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
40. Re:Neat! by Spliffster · 2012-01-09 07:52 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, multi threading is so much easier on an Arduino ;)
41. Re:Neat! by LWATCDR · 2012-01-09 07:55 · Score: 1
  
  Not much but how about this?
  Suppose you want to build a remote weather station that is powered by solar power.
  You could use simple Morse to communicate with it or with more CPU power you could use PSK31?
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSK31
  A PI should have more than enough power to do that while an Arduino probably would not.
  Or for Robotics? Or......
  I see these as filling different niches The PI model b also has a NIC onboard as well as USB. You can and a NIC to the Arudino but it isn't as cheap as the PI then. Also the USB port means that adding Wifi and or bluetooth is also pretty cheap as you can just use cheap off the shelf USB devices.
  http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=USB+Wifi&hl=en&prmd=imvnsr&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.,cf.osb&biw=1170&bih=580&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=1441979504990399921&sa=X&ei=DEULT764OYb50gGpzPinAg&ved=0CLMBEPMCMAE
  and http://www.google.com/products/catalog?pq=usb+wifi&hl=en&ds=pr&cp=5&gs_id=n&xhr=t&q=usb+bluetooth&tok=OjXamipMnNn461K3sUf7PQ&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.,cf.osb&biw=1170&bih=580&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=5941927603346482198&sa=X&ei=LkULT727Gsba0QHs2szUBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CKwBEPMCMAE
  for example.
  You will also have a full USB stack, BlueTooth stack, and TCP/IP stack with the PI.
  So both have pluses and minuses. If you just want to open a garage door then an Arduino is probably good enough.
  If you want to open it from your smart phone or you computer on your wifi network and log when people show up and maybe even use a web cam to see who is going in the garage? Well a PI might be just the ticket.
  
  --
  See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
42. Re:Neat! by sylvandb · 2012-01-09 08:29 · Score: 1
  
  I used to work with 14 gauge wire, 12 gauge wire, and 10 gauge wire. It is significantly harder to route 10 gauge wire. Even more so if you already have insulation and drywall up.
  That is total nonsense.
  The only part "significantly harder" with a 10ga run is the termination in the boxes at the ends. Yes, thicker, stiffer wire does make it harder to attach the device and fold the working length nicely to fit back into the box. My 4ga and 6ga runs were significantly harder than 12ga and 10ga. 10ga compared to 12ga or 14ga? Any difference in wire is totally insignificant compared to the job itself.
  Well, that and carrying a 500ft+ spool of one vs the other...
43. Re:Neat! by rsborg · 2012-01-09 08:53 · Score: 1
  
  Or just shut the water off while you're on vacation.
  If you're in a freezing climate, turning off water may not be advisable... in fact, I remember last time I was in such a situation, they recommended to keep water dripping [1] so the pipes didn't freeze (and burst).
  [1] http://www.weather.com/activities/homeandgarden/home/hometips/severeweather/pipefreeze_prevent.html
  
  --
  Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
44. Re:Neat! by sjames · 2012-01-09 09:43 · Score: 2
  
  Very few embedded devices actually require realtime. Most have a fairly soft requirement of 'within a reasonable amount of time'.
  Flipping a few gpio lines in an embedded device is trivially accomplished in a few lines of C in userspace.
45. Re:Neat! by buzzsawddog · 2012-01-09 11:11 · Score: 1
  
  Nope just do it yourself ;-)
46. Re:Neat! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 11:15 · Score: 0
  
  You'll never work in sales. Never!
47. Re:Neat! by CastrTroy · 2012-01-10 03:58 · Score: 1
  
  I mentioned those types of devices. All they do is sound an alarm when the floor is wet. They can't actually shut off the water. So if you're lucky, the neighbour will hear the alarm and if you had enough foresite, and a trustworthy neighbour, he would have a key to open the door so that he could shut the water off. Assuming he's close enough to hear the alarm in the first place. Remember, you're on vacation. Also, it doesn't even take that long to cause a problem. The guy was only gone 5 hours before somebody noticed a problem, and that's because water was flowing out of the house. You could leave for work, and come back to a house full of water.
  
  --
  
  Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
48. Re:Neat! by ArhcAngel · 2012-01-10 04:41 · Score: 1
  
  You obviously only looked at the first product and responded. Take a look at the product LINE. There are products for every conceivable configuration and budget up to and including shutting off the main.
  
  --
  "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
49. Re:Neat! by CastrTroy · 2012-01-10 09:54 · Score: 1
  
  Problems I see. They are all based on detecting water that is already on the floor. Which means that there is a lot of room for error if the device isn't installed in the right spot. You have to account for the slope of the floor and if it isn't in the right spot, a lot of damage could happen. Also, they are quite expensive. For $100+ I would expect something with much more than a 1 year warranty. My idea is something more like measuring the actual water flow in the pipe, and if too much water is flowing, or flows continuously for too long, the valve closes. Also there doesn't need to be 10 different devices. One device with a simple switch for amount of water flow to allow for would suffice.
  
  --
  
  Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
50. Re:Neat! by ArhcAngel · 2012-01-10 10:05 · Score: 1
  
  Let me get this straight...You would rather the water flow continuously for a set time and then shut off rather than place a sensor on the floor in a place that should NEVER get wet and shut off instantly the moment it senses water? And for the record...Flow sensors are more expensive and high maintenance than flood sensors.
  
  --
  "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
Quit yer yapping and start producing! by elrous0 · 2012-01-09 02:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'll tell you what I told those bastards at Tesla Motors: I don't want to see it in action, I want to see it in PRODUCTION.

--
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
1. Re:Quit yer yapping and start producing! by Speare · 2012-01-09 02:57 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  It IS in production, it just hasn't come out of the production pipeline yet. The working beta boards (with a hand-applied last-minute fix) are being auctioned off, proceeds for the charity recipients for which Raspberry Pi was created: making classroom computing happen.
  I will be happy to buy a bunch when they're available too, but let's watch the development. As for Tesla, did you buy the Roadster, seeing as how it's been available in showrooms for some time now?
  
  --
  [ .sig file not found ]
2. Re:Quit yer yapping and start producing! by randomErr · 2012-01-09 03:23 · Score: 1
  
  The pre-production versions are available on eBay now. There only one circuit difference between them and the final model. I think they're in production now but will not be sold until they get a significant inventory built up, about the end of the month.
  
  --
  You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
3. Re:Quit yer yapping and start producing! by delinear · 2012-01-09 04:22 · Score: 0
  
  They're a long way away from $25 though.
4. Re:Quit yer yapping and start producing! by Squiddie · 2012-01-09 05:24 · Score: 1
  
  It's for charity.
Excellent! by homb · 2012-01-09 02:38 · Score: 4, Interesting

I'm very excited about this.
Especially as a learning tool for my kids, I think that by seeing what is happening they'll get very excited about learning to program.
I already have arduino boards, but it's not the same thing. Here we have a completely self-contained computer with great practical I/O interfaces.
1. Re:Excellent! by Osgeld · 2012-01-09 04:03 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  counterargument:
  Why do you expect this thing will be any better or easier for your kids to program over any other linux on a box?
2. Re:Excellent! by delinear · 2012-01-09 04:23 · Score: 2
  
  It's cheap enough that you can give it to kids without worrying if they break it and the expansion board will let them see and play around with some real world applications without everything being on the screen, dry and abstract.
3. Re:Excellent! by homb · 2012-01-09 05:10 · Score: 1
  
  Exactly. And you can carry it around.
  Think external applications, like checking soil humidity, motion sensors, etc...
4. Re:Excellent! by LWATCDR · 2012-01-09 05:13 · Score: 1
  
  Actually you make an interesting point.
  A board like this but that connected to you PC with a USB interface could be very useful.
  With proper libraries and bindings for things like Python, Perl, Ruby, Lua, C, C++, and so on would be very cool tool for people to play with.
  Of course one could make such a device from a Pi and even have it be networked. Realtime control would be a challenge but for none realtime control it could be kind of cool.
  
  --
  See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
5. Re:Excellent! by sylvandb · 2012-01-09 08:32 · Score: 1
  
  http://pjradcliffe.wordpress.com/open-usb-io/
  It's a cool board.
  The R-Pi is cheaper (by design).
6. Re:Excellent! by LWATCDR · 2012-01-09 08:54 · Score: 1
  
  Yep. Oh and I left out that you can use a printer port for IO under Linux. So if you have the slots and or one on the motherboard you can play real devices way.
  
  --
  See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
7. Re:Excellent! by sjames · 2012-01-09 09:46 · Score: 1
  
  And it contains only low voltages inside so you don't have to worry when they poke around inside.
Through-hole by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 02:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

Who are these people who keep on insisting on using through-hole components? That board could easily be the same size as the Raspberry-pi board itself simply by using SOIC packages as opposed to DIP for all of the ICs. Soldering a 1.27mm pitch SMT component is really easy, it takes about the same amount of time as a DIP component, and is much, much, smaller.
I understand from the Raspberry-pi website that it's gonna be supplied as a bare board + components, but like I said, soldering SMT stuff is really easy. Also if the whole point of this Raspberry-pi stuff is to teach people new skills, why not teach them how to solder stuff that the rest of the world is now using.
1. Re:Through-hole by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 02:48 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Soldering a 1.27mm pitch SMT component is really easy, it takes about the same amount of time as a DIP component, and is much, much, smaller.
  No.
  Perhaps to a seasoned EE or hobbyist who gets his hands dirty on a daily basis, but otherwise, no.
  The best way to turn the Raspberry Pi to shit (apart from its name - "Acorn", the obvious predecessor to this whole project, sounded much better) would be to set the bar at a level which assumes you already know what you're doing before you've even started.
2. Re:Through-hole by vlm · 2012-01-09 02:58 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Who are these people who keep on insisting on using through-hole components? That board could easily be the same size as the Raspberry-pi board itself simply by using SOIC packages as opposed to DIP for all of the ICs. Soldering a 1.27mm pitch SMT component is really easy, it takes about the same amount of time as a DIP component, and is much, much, smaller.
  Its a meme that just won't die. As a guy who's been doing SMD at home on and off since the 80s for ham radio microwave gear, it gets tiring hearing for about three decades that what I find easy to do and enjoyable is "impossible" and will be the "death of homebrewing" and all that rot. Its right up there with "PL-259s are impossible to install" and "power poles are impossible to install", you only hear about it over and over from the 0.1% of the population who really can't do it.
  I'm willing to bet there are some very young hardware hackers on /. right now emulating their elders by rambling about how impossible it is to do SMD at home, despite my experience doing it for years before they were born.
  
  --
  "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
3. Re:Through-hole by Nursie · 2012-01-09 03:11 · Score: 1
  
  Its right up there with "PL-259s are impossible to install" and "power poles are impossible to install",
  Is that the EE's equivalent of "parallel computing will never take off, it's just too hard for developers" that gets my programming goat so much?
4. Re:Through-hole by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 03:17 · Score: 0
  
  Its right up there with "PL-259s are impossible to install"
  Well the problem with PL-259s are most people have undersized soldering irons. Not to mention there are better connectors out there nowadays anyways.
5. Re:Through-hole by JoeMerchant · 2012-01-09 03:21 · Score: 2
  
  soldering SMT stuff is really easy
  Speak for yerself, whippersnapper.
  I did all my own tech assembly work when through-hole was the only option. As the years wore on, my eyesight got worse and the parts got smaller, rapidly taking me out of the tech arena - which is fine, but I can still do through hole, whereas mounting an 0402 is... unrealistic for me.
6. Re:Through-hole by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 03:25 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  *disclaimer* I work for Broadcom in the team that did 2835, however I am not involved with the Pi, so posted anon to not to be accused of karma-ing
  Reasons For through hole:
  1) Hobbyists aren't scared of them - some are scared of SMT (and some SMT is used on Gertboard)
  2) Requires less skilled soldering - yes a skilled solderer can do smt with ease, but half the point of this project is that it should be unintimidating to everyone.
  3) More mechanically sturdy. Useful for many hobby projects
  The Pi mainboard got in trouble for being none through-hole, and not available as a kit of parts, now Gertboard is in trouble for being exactly that.
  *sigh* this is why we can't have nice things.
7. Re:Through-hole by Defenestrar · 2012-01-09 03:26 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I've soldered plenty of SM components myself, but you may be overlooking the novice oriented aspects of this system (and the comments you dismiss), especially when it comes to the tools available. Besides, practice only takes you so far; even an experienced plastic surgeon may have a hard time making something look pretty if he's only got leather-working tools available.
  If you consider that the computer is marketed as cheap, and this board is an educational add on (presumably also cheap) (well the board is functional, but the article points out the educational advantages, including the population), then it would probably be safe to assume that the soldering iron will also be cheap. A soldering iron allowing comfortable SM work is easily double or triple the cost of the computer - over an order of magnitude for the good ones. So, if one were to use a soldering iron of comparable or less cost than the system (what a novice may choose to start with), SM could be very hard if not impossible.
8. Re:Through-hole by petermgreen · 2012-01-09 03:30 · Score: 1
  
  Soldering a 1.27mm pitch SMT component is really easy, it takes about the same amount of time as a DIP component, and is much, much, smaller.
  The thing I find takes the time with SOIC components is getting them aligned and keeping them aligned while I do the first couple of pins (diagonally opposite of coutse). Once you've done that first pin the rest is pretty easy but i've always found the first pin a PITA.
  
  --
  note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
9. Re:Through-hole by petermgreen · 2012-01-09 03:41 · Score: 1
  
  Also another BIG advantage of DIL is that it can be socketed. That means it's much easier to replace a part if you fry it. It also means if a board doesn't work you can pull chips out either to let you test the board itself for shorts etc or to allow you to test sections of the circuit in isolation.
  I'll use surface mount if i'm space constrained or can't get the part I need in a DIL package but I much preffer DIL.
  "Winging a pin" (removing the pin from the board and connecting to a wire) to change the circuit is also much easier on a socketed dil than on a SOIC.
  
  --
  note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
10. Re:Through-hole by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 03:47 · Score: 0
  
  I guess it's obvious to say but you seem to have decided who your audience are and found out what is best for them.
  Self-diagnosed experts who tell you you're doing it wrong can make a lot of noise but you'll be OK if you stay confident in your aims and don't allow the occasional pompous article or comment to sway your company. The geek world is notorious for "what works for me should work for everyone" and in every established tech site you'll find an echo chamber of negative reinforcement. Recall that Acorn was a trailblazer in the '80s with its BBC Microcomputers because it applied technical brilliance to deliver the required system and didn't get bogged down by heckling from Statler and Waldorf.
11. Re:Through-hole by evanbd · 2012-01-09 03:59 · Score: 1
  
  SparkFun sells a temperature-controlled iron perfectly suitable for general SMD work for $40. Sure, that's more than the cost of the computer, but I suspect it's less than computer + addon board. Yes, a good iron used to cost $150, but that's simple no longer true. (Sure, the $150 iron is somewhat better, but the $40 one can do 1.27mm gull wing packages just fine.)
12. Re:Through-hole by Osgeld · 2012-01-09 04:06 · Score: 1
  
  ugh sparkfun china garbage get a xytronic 45 bucks, made in the USA, wont melt in your hand
13. Re:Through-hole by Defenestrar · 2012-01-09 04:34 · Score: 1
  
  Didn't know we had capable irons down in that range. Thanks for the tip.
14. Re:Through-hole by daid303 · 2012-01-09 04:38 · Score: 2
  
  Yes you can. Even I can solder SMD with my 15 year old soldering iron. However, soldering through hole is much easier, less error prone and requires simpler tools.
  I've seen someone fix an audio system with just a 12V soldering iron in the middle of a field, on a wobbly table. Try that with SMD. Usually I want my stuff to last and to be easy to fix/modify. From a hackers point of view, trough hole is just better. More expensive, but better.
15. Re:Through-hole by Defenestrar · 2012-01-09 04:39 · Score: 1
  
  Would that be the Xytronic which sells some really cute soldering irons with identical pictures to those in the catalog of Xytronic who states "Ninety percent of XYTRONIC product is exported with major customers in the US, Canada, Australia, Japan and Western Europe"?
16. Re:Through-hole by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 05:31 · Score: 0
  
  Through hole (PTH) IS still the best way to learn soldering and designing.
  You're looking at this issue purely from the perspective of, how difficult is it to solder SMT?
  There's WAY more to it than that.
  Everyone starts off with solderless breadboards. There is no SMT equivalent.
  Secondly, mistakes in SMT soldering usually mean ruining the chip AND maybe ruining your PCB in the effort.
  A copper soldering wick and iron is NOT going to work well at removing solder from bridged pins that are 1.27mm pitch.
  A newbie won't have flux, and won't have a heated solder pump (those plastic ones only work on push through parts).
  I found that out when I fat-fingered some SMT, and got the bridge to go UP the chip where the pins exit the chip.. only the heated pump would fix it.
  I can say that I dabble with solderless and vero board. There is no analogy for SMT work. I'm aware of the "surfboards" for SMT prototypes, which work for some tasks.
  It's totally unrealistic to expect hobbyists to simultaneously learn how to etch PCBs at home, or to farm out their PCB to a hobby PCB shop. There's a learning curve to both, and this ignores having to learn Eagle (which has serious limitations in the free version). This is EXACTLY why Sparkfun is doing so well.. at their core, they take interesting SMT components and make push-through breakout boards for them. Once you do THAT, you'll need a reflow oven of some sort...
  I don't disagree that the world has moved to SMT... I just believe that this trend will push it out of the reach of casual hobbyists or curious newbies. I don't see an alternative, except for what Sparkfun is doing. I'm a hobbyist for 3 years, and I almost know what I am doing, but so far I've avoided needing to learn Eagle (maybe someday), or making a PCB (that's next... using someone else's PCB file).
  The chips without pins - the BGA stuff - clearly kills even an intermediate hobbyist. There's a new "maker" shop in town, and even they don't have a reflow oven (yet, anyways). A lot of the new interesting chips just don't work without solder paste, solder stencils, and reflow. From the education perspective, that's a damn shame.
17. Re:Through-hole by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 05:36 · Score: 0
  
  I think you are the dumb shit.
18. Re:Through-hole by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 05:37 · Score: 0
  
  Didn't know we had capable irons down in that range. Thanks for the tip.
  Pun intended?
19. Re:Through-hole by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 05:59 · Score: 0
  
  Easy solution to please both sides, invent a new board type: Semi-thru hole.
  Or tell the guys bitching about it not being SMD to just cut the component legs real short.
20. Re:Through-hole by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 06:08 · Score: 0
  
  Ooooh, look at you! Hey, some of us can't afford programming goats, you insensitive clod!
21. Re:Through-hole by chihowa · 2012-01-09 06:14 · Score: 1
  
  Its right up there with "PL-259s are impossible to install"
  Well the problem with PL-259s are most people have undersized soldering irons. Not to mention there are better connectors out there nowadays anyways.
  I'm not sure why PL-259 is still used so often. I can't wait for that abomination to die off. Appropriate replacements have been available for over sixty years.
  
  --
  If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
22. Re:Through-hole by maestroX · 2012-01-09 06:15 · Score: 1
  
  I'm willing to bet there are some very young hardware hackers on /. right now emulating their elders by rambling about how impossible it is to do SMD at home, despite my experience doing it for years before they were born.
  
  My parents always said I couldn't have an VAX in my bedroom, but I can!
23. Re:Through-hole by vlm · 2012-01-09 06:37 · Score: 1
  
  Its right up there with "PL-259s are impossible to install"
  Well the problem with PL-259s are most people have undersized soldering irons. Not to mention there are better connectors out there nowadays anyways.
  The killer with PL-259s is/was two fold:
  1) I use ladder line and change is too scary to contemplate so I'll use ladder line until I die. Lets face it most of those old timers have kicked the bucket so thats why we're not subjected to as much "pl-259 sucks" as we used to be.
  2) The old ham adage that hams make their own antenna wire by grabbing each side of a penny and pulling really hard remains true. You really can't reuse a PL-259. Yeah you can try, but its agony. If its new and shiny and licks up solder its about 10 dB easier to attach than some tarnished corroded old POS that was salvaged using a torch.
  
  --
  "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
24. Re:Through-hole by Shotgun · 2012-01-09 06:46 · Score: 1
  
  Pre solder two pads diagonally opposite. Sit the component and align it. The legs on the pre-soldered pads will be sprung up. Touch those two lets with the iron. It will flow the solder and the legs will spring back down into place.
  
  --
  Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
  Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
25. Re:Through-hole by tibit · 2012-01-09 06:49 · Score: 1
  
  Sigh, the stuff that's on the Pi mainboard is not even available in through hole! Care to explain how you'd package BCM2835 in a through-hole package and still have it perform acceptably? Because it'd be an exercise in futility AFAICT. The leadframe parasitics would make it radiate like hell. Heck, I'm sure there are switching voltage regulators for CPU core voltage that, even if implement in a very compact way using through-hole components, would be an EMI/EMC disaster. Never mind they'd probably take up 25% of current Pi board's real estate. How the heck did Pi mainboard get into any trouble because they didn't do the impossible is beyond me. You must be making stuff up. It's not informative, not that aspect at least.
  It's also a pipe dream that through-hole is more mechanically sturdy. It is in some instances, but not generally for mounting ICs. It's not good at all that you have a potentially large stiff structure (think 40 pin DIP) that has pins that sit in relatively fragile metallized holes. Having IC attachment points (pads) separate from vias is a good thing. If you want something that's still easy to assemble for low density circuits, you can always use 1206 discretes and SO packages with their comfortable 50 mil lead pitch. It'll be much faster to assemble, too -- I really like not having to flip the board to do the soldering.
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
26. Re:Through-hole by tibit · 2012-01-09 06:51 · Score: 1
  
  Decent sockets may cost more than the chip you're socketing. The only worthwhile, decently performing sockets, with low parasitics, are the individual turned pin sockets that you solder one-by-one directly into the PC board holes. Those are not cheap. Anything else will markedly decrease reliability.
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
27. Re:Through-hole by tibit · 2012-01-09 06:53 · Score: 1
  
  With modern parts, solderless breadboards are becoming counterproductive. Any recent chip will have fast edges on the logic outputs and the parasitics of a solderless breadboard will mess things up. You cannot assemble but a fairly low frequency switching power regulator on a solderless breadboard.
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
28. Re:Through-hole by vlm · 2012-01-09 06:59 · Score: 1
  
  I would with all respect claim its the other way around. You can teach a noob to be a good SMD hand solderer in about half the time as you can teach a noob to be a thru-hole solderer. Its just easier to do.
  A major part of SMD soldering is the mechanical connection is the electrical connection. Unlike thruhole, a bad/missing/horrible soldering job means the part falls off the board, more or less. Also the attention to getting just the right amount of solder for a decent electrical connection means you must have a good mechanical connection. Surface tension / smooth fillet HAS to be good for SMD to work at all, unlike thru hole where any glob on the connection is sorta OK. You can foul up electrically or mechanically with thru-hole, so you gotta teach both. With SMD a good electrical connection is a good mechanical connection there is only one thing to teach.
  Another area is dealing with solder bridges. I'm a fan of ye olde wipe technique for SOIC packages. Thru hole never learns to handle bridges or freaks out and/or doesn't get as much experience, whereas its a part of the SMD process so its always handled. A solder bridge on thru hole means an exotic rare failure mode failed to be corrected, so you can see how noobs fail there. A solder bridge on SMD is an inherent part of the process so noobs learn how to deal with it.
  I would claim that thru hole is sort of analog in that joint quality is variable and it's hard for a total noob to catch on. Whereas SMD is pretty digital, either its dang near perfect or you are in miserable failure mode (like the chip cap stuck to the iron via surface tension or a failure like that)
  I used a non-thermostat iron for SMD work from the 80s up till '09 and had no problems. I did get a ridiculous luxurious Hakko pro grade system around '09 that cost about one or two car payments (insert "ooh" "ahh" sounds from people who know who Hakko is and what they make) and it is slightly easier, and it heats up practically instantly like 20 seconds, and it never overheats so the flux never burns so the tips last forever it seems and never need retinning, and it seems weightless in my fingers because it is probably 1/10th the weight of a radio shack iron, and the cord is superflex like headphone wire so it never drags the iron, but its amazing ergonomic abilities are hardly required to make a decent connection.
  You do need a good spudger, in a crisis a wood toothpick would probably work, again over the years I got a little ESD protected thing that cost more than a nice restaurant lunch, but I made do with toothpicks for about 20 years first. You initially stick exactly one pin or terminal to the pad, then reheat and spudge the device perfectly into position, then solder all the other pins/pads while cleaning up the first pad as your last job. Iron in right hand, a couple inches of solder between left pointer and index, spudger between left thumb and pointer. It takes less than 2 seconds once you know what you're doing. If I had 4 hands it would be a lot simpler to do and explain.
  Also you need decent solder with a good flux... If its all corroded and icky looking its not gonna do. If its multicore that seems to help. Smaller diameter the better when it comes to controlling solder fillet size. If its got "radio shack" on the label its probably not the right stuff. And a little bottle / pen / can / whatever floats your boat of electrical-type flux helps. Finally this influences flux remover, I seem to end up using isopropyl as a cleaner even for psuedo-water cleanup fluxes. "no clean" is a marketing term doesn't really happen.
  Sorry, but SMD is just easier, both for old timers and noobs.
  I do agree there is no "hacking" reuse of smd parts. You desolder and throw away. One time use thats all you get. too much lead bending, too much thermal damage. If you try to reuse parts you'll just swear and swear and swear, unlike thru-hole.
  
  --
  "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
29. Re:Through-hole by vlm · 2012-01-09 07:10 · Score: 1
  
  Oh and I forgot that to a first approximation for thru hole a "soldering iron" is also a "desoldering iron" but for SMD that doesn't work. I hand solder but for desoldering its either elaborate machined tips to hit all pads at once or hot air time. Hot air is a PITA when it melts the "wrong" nearby components.
  That's a hurdle that old time thru-holers need to get over, for SMD, until you get good at it, a soldering iron is NOT also a desoldering iron. I would still argue that noobs probably make 100 connections for every one they remove, so I think they still come out ahead even if desoldering is twice as hard for SMD. So 99 connections are twice as easy, and 1 removal is twice as hard, I think SMD overall wins.
  In summary, the "flowchart" you need to teach thru-holers is much larger and has many more branches than the "flowchart" you need to teach noob SMDers, and conveniently for the old timers SMD is much faster than thruhole and conveniently it seems harder to make a poor SMD connection than thru-hole so average connection quality is higher. SMD for the win, pretty much.
  
  --
  "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
30. Re:Through-hole by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 07:38 · Score: 0
  
  Sigh, the stuff that's on the Pi mainboard is not even available in through hole! Care to explain how you'd package BCM2835 in a through-hole package and still have it perform acceptably? Because it'd be an exercise in futility AFAICT. The leadframe parasitics would make it radiate like hell. Heck, I'm sure there are switching voltage regulators for CPU core voltage that, even if implement in a very compact way using through-hole components, would be an EMI/EMC disaster. Never mind they'd probably take up 25% of current Pi board's real estate. How the heck did Pi mainboard get into any trouble because they didn't do the impossible is beyond me. You must be making stuff up. It's not informative, not that aspect at least.
  Easy, tiger. The GP agrees with you, there are just some typos in his (her?) post. I've been following the RPi through its development, and I can attest to the fact that the blog comments have been full of different people's opinions about what the final product should look like, and there was in a fact a fairly vocal minority that expected the device to be more of a kit computer and were disappointed to see surface-mounted components. The RPi project has been very straightforward about their goal - to produce an extremely affordable computer to be used in education, but a lot of people have seen it through their own self-generated RDF, and in their minds, it becomes whatever they desire most, be it a cheap gaming platform, or a potential cluster node, or a fancy microcontroller, or a kit computer, etc., etc.
31. Re:Through-hole by petermgreen · 2012-01-09 11:32 · Score: 1
  
  nice tip
  
  --
  note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
32. Re:Through-hole by petermgreen · 2012-01-09 11:40 · Score: 1
  
  Decent sockets may cost more than the chip you're socketing.
  For very cheap chips the socket may cost less than the chip but at least the sockets I always use aren't all that expensive and are usually a small part of the price of a prototype PCB assembly.
  
  The only worthwhile, decently performing sockets, with low parasitics, are the individual turned pin sockets that you solder one-by-one directly into the PC board holes. Those are not cheap.
  Maybe so but this board probablly doesn't need low parasitics. All those connectors etc are probablly going to have far more parasitics than a DIL socket anyway.
  
  Anything else will markedly decrease reliability.
  Can't say i've ever had problems with ordinary turned pin sockets bought from my regular electronics suppliers. Don't think i've ever had a problem with the cheap sockets that have sprung contacts made from bent metal either.
  For a devboard i'll take the ease of troubleshooting and modification provided by socketed dil chips over some supposed reliability reduction that i've never noticed any day.
  
  --
  note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
33. Re:Through-hole by julesh · 2012-01-09 11:43 · Score: 1
  
  As an amateur lacking in equipment, I'd say my primary issue with SMD components is that I can't prototype with them on stripboard. Sure, I can use an SMD resistor between two tracks, or if I'm feeling adventurous a 4-contact SOIC or PLCC device can sit between two tracks and over a break, but anything more complicated just doesn't fit -- transistors always have a contact that doesn't align right, and a 6-pin or higher SOIC chip will sit with two legs on each track. So anything I want to do with these more complex SMD components means breaking out the copper-clad board, printing up a design on etch-resist transfer paper, and etching it, which for me is an error-prone process that more often results in a wasted board than anything actually useful.
34. Re:Through-hole by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 21:04 · Score: 0
  
  I think you have misunderstood. The Raspberry Pi design got flack from *commentors* when they discovered they would be unable to buy a kit and make it up themselves. That was the trouble, not the design or implementation. The Broadcom guy above surely knows that these sorts of chips cannot be through hole!
35. Re:Through-hole by RockDoctor · 2012-01-10 00:40 · Score: 1
  
  Its a meme that just won't die. As a guy who's been doing SMD at home on and off since the 80s for ham radio microwave gear, it gets tiring hearing for about three decades that what I find easy to do and enjoyable is "impossible" and will be the "death of homebrewing" and all that rot.
  While I can see more or less what it looks like from your end of the telescope, try for a second looking from my end of the telescope : I've done soldering often enough over the last 30 years to have a reasonable degree of confidence what I'm doing. replacing burned out transistors on signal conditioner boards - check. Re-doing rotted cables in the car/ washing machine/ computer/ mains circuits - check. Building small (10-minus components) things onto strip board - check. When I see a problem that needs soldering, I know what needs to be done, what tools to get (beg/ steal/ borrow or buy ; I don't do it often enough to keep the tools in my toolbox). Building a board like the Raspberry-Pi would be daunting, but not terribly off-putting.
  But Surface Mount? I've never, ever seen a spread for doing it ; I've no idea what so ever it needs in the way of equipment ; I don't even know anyone who has ever known anyone who has done it (or not that I know of). Where do I start? What do I need. How critical is component positioning? How do I get the soldering iron's tool to the right temperature. How do I control that temperature? Do I need to invest 7xRaspberry-Pi in a soldering iron/ station, or 20x?
  I'd have to start an entire new technique about which, I know almost nothing. I'm quite sure I could do it (I re-soldered an SMD connector on a hard drive from a broken laptop once, which lasted long enough to get the data off the drive before the 06:00 report was due, and to save my friend's job.) But given the likely cost of the learning curve, it'll probably be a much better investment of time and effort to buy it ready-populated, or buy the wire-through-hole version. I didn't express prices above in units of "Raspberry-Pi" by accident.
  Obligatory car analogy : I know what welding is ; I've got half an idea of how to do it ; when carrying out maintenance or repairs on my cars, I'll stick to things my socket set works on. If it needs welding, I'll get someone else to do the job, because I'm not interested in devoting the time and material into learning how to do something I'd only need rarely. And there are dozens of more occasions that I've considered "I need to weld that" than there have been occasions where I've thought "Ah, shit. SMD to be repaired. "Now", not "soon". And no spare board to change-out. Pass the soldering iron."
  The barriers of entry are those of experience and equipment available. A half-way decent soldering iron and a solder-sucker are available in towns of a few tens of thousands ; living in a 1/3-million city, I *might* be able to find SMD equipment, but I don't know for sure. As for somebody who can show me "howto" ... I simply don't know anyone. I'd have to go to, at least, friends of friends ; and likely further.
  
  --
  Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
36. Re:Through-hole by vlm · 2012-01-10 01:49 · Score: 1
  
  As an amateur lacking in equipment, I'd say my primary issue with SMD components is that I can't prototype with them on stripboard..... So anything I want to do with these more complex SMD components means breaking out the copper-clad board, printing up a design on etch-resist transfer paper, and etching it, which for me is an error-prone process that more often results in a wasted board than anything actually useful.
  The term/product you didn't know to google for is "schmartboard" aka
  http://www.schmartboard.com/
  They have about a zillion competitors, some doing their own thing, some just ripping off the schmartboard guys.
  You buy a tiny little PCBs where you solder your SOIC or SOT or whatever device to the tiny PCB and the other edge of the PCB is precision designed to connect to standard pitch protoboards or whatever, using header strips or short wires. You can think of it (heck some are marketed as) a SOIC to DIP adapter board.
  In the narrow little world of RF tech that I work in, this general concept extends to weird specialized applications like "generic MMIC amplifier PCB" and so on. First gen MMICs pretty much all used the same package and pinout and general biasing ckts so any manufacturers MMIC could be made to work on a generic MMIC amp board, sometimes with some strange hot wiring for bias ckts, but it did work. Life is a little more complicated now, but still.. Generic VCO PCB. Generic diode mixer PCB. Generic SMD filter PCB. All off the shelf in bulk.
  
  --
  "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
37. Re:Through-hole by vlm · 2012-01-10 02:15 · Score: 1
  
  Welcome to youtube, see you in a couple hours. There's a lot to see and every video maker claims to be an expert with the One True Technique. My only advice is there's quite a few different ways to do it, so don't mix and match parts of one with parts of another if they don't go together (traditional roll solder with a paste stencil don't logically go together very well, unless maybe you're applying liquid flux using the soldering stencil or something weird like that)
  Its a hobby, so economic constraints of its not worth the time etc are kind of inappropriate other than don't throw down more cash than your're comfortable with, and doing something new is the definition of fun. There is no risk other than being out some cash, beyond the thru hole soldering risks (don't drop the hot iron in your lap, etc)
  The best place to start isn't hard drives but hunt down the "usual electronics kit suppliers" like Ramsey etc and order a couple different "intro to SMD" kits and give a couple different techniques a try. Given existing thru-hole tools and ability, clean and tin your regular iron with a regular tip to perfection, use a toothpick as a spudger or probe or whatever you want to call it to position parts, and buy a small roll of the smallest possible solder you can find. Some swear by the paste technique instead of using roll solder, which in my opinion is wasteful and expensive, but to each their own. Also some people insist it can only be done with a hot air rework wand, which is really code words for they only know how to do it with a hot air rework wand, not that "it can't be done"
  Please note that some people try to so "SMD at home" by replicating industrial mass production SMD techniques as a hack onto itself. This is kind of like a standard /. car analogy that you can't work on your car unless you have a full size robotic assembly line in your garage, which is not exactly true. You want to do SMD at home using at home techniques, not solder paste stencils with reflow ovens... unless you want to get into the hobby of doing industrial mass production at home, which is a perfectly valid and interesting subhobby, but completely off topic from basic hand assembly. Sometimes you need a translator, and what you'll be doing with each part, is what the mass production pros would call "hand rework/repair". You have to do reflow ovens and paste and stencils to make a profit in China as a mass production assembler, but those market forces don't impact you individually.
  Get a ham radio license and talk to the local hams. You can't build anything RF these days without SMD somewhere; probably some guy on the radio within a mile is a wizard at smd hand soldering and would simply give you a couple feet of ultra fine pitch solder, or the remainder of a flux bottle, or an old slightly worn pro-grade ESD proof spudger etc, reducing your mandatory tool purchase list from maybe $25 to maybe $0. And probably more free advice than you'll have use for.
  Expect to get an education in surface tension management of liquid solder, and also an education in not drinking coffee / energy drinks when working on 0402 size components.
  Speaking of 0402, don't even think about really small stuff like that, or BGAs, until you have way more experience.
  
  --
  "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
38. Re:Through-hole by RockDoctor · 2012-01-10 03:10 · Score: 1
  
  Welcome to youtube, see you in a couple hours.
  YouTube is blocked at this location. And I fully understand the administrator's reasons for doing it and support him in this. Bandwidth isn't free - about $500/ day here for about 10 business-case users.
  
  Its a hobby
  It's not (for me) : it's a means to an end. I didn't know (until now) that there are many different techniques. That's it ; for me you've just killed the whole subject stone cold dead. I'll buy the boards ready populated, wire up headers where I need to so I can access appropriate points, and use what skills I do have to do the things I am interested in.
  
  [Ham]
  Not interested. Never have been, and unlikely ever to be. It's possible that it'll become a tool along the way to an end that I'm interested in (it was under consideration in the past). But I don't think that's terribly likely.
  
  --
  Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
39. Re:Through-hole by julesh · 2012-01-15 22:51 · Score: 1
  
  The term/product you didn't know to google for is "schmartboard" aka
  http://www.schmartboard.com/ [schmartboard.com]
  They have about a zillion competitors, some doing their own thing, some just ripping off the schmartboard guys.
  You buy a tiny little PCBs where you solder your SOIC or SOT or whatever device to the tiny PCB and the other edge of the PCB is precision designed to connect to standard pitch protoboards or whatever, using header strips or short wires. You can think of it (heck some are marketed as) a SOIC to DIP adapter board
  Oh, sure, I've seen a whole load of this kind of stuff. Problem is, it's all too expensive. A piece of stripboard for a moderately simple project (24 tracks x 37 holes) costs me about £1, whereas a board to accommodate, say, a PLCC40 or similar chip will typically costs £5 or more. For SOIC you may be able to get them as cheap as £3 or thereabouts. Which is to say, in most cases, the board is actually more expensive than the chip itself.
Unsure about the gert... by Crookdotter · 2012-01-09 02:40 · Score: 3, Insightful

I know, it's great and all, but if you're using the pi to do the heavy lifting, and the gert as simply a way to output, doesn't an arduino already do this, and with linux too? Is this redundant, or have I missed something?
1. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 02:46 · Score: 0
  
  >or have I missed something?
  competition
2. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Andy+Dodd · 2012-01-09 02:46 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Arduino doesn't run Linux.
  This is more similar to a BeagleBone prototype cape - except with the Gertboard don't expect to be able to use any features in the chip that aren't put into the kernel by Eben and Gert. Unlike the CPU in the Arduino (ATMegaXX8) and the CPU in the BeagleBone (TI AM335x), the technical reference manual for the Broadcom chip in the Pi is completely unavailable. If support for anything is left out of the kernel, whether intentionally or simply due to lack of time, you will not be able to implement it yourself. If support for anything is broken in the kernel, you will have to live with it due to lack of documentation and the fact that Broadcom never comments their damn kernel code for anything. (Look at the BCM4330 driver for mobile devices as an example - if it misbehaves, you're screwed.)
  
  --
  retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
3. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 02:46 · Score: 0
  
  Not for $25
  I haven't seen pricing for the Gert board anywhere (haven't really looked), but if the Pi is only $25 - I don't imagine that the Gert would be much more. Some of the nicer arduino boards cost much more.
4. Re:Unsure about the gert... by surgen · 2012-01-09 02:50 · Score: 1
  
  There is more than one way to skin a cat. And if your particular project has your arduino always connected to a PC, this may be exactly what you want.
5. Re:Unsure about the gert... by vlm · 2012-01-09 02:51 · Score: 2
  
  Arduino does not run linux. You can run the editor / compiler / loader on linux, but its just a bare metal controller.
  The pi literally runs linux, so you develop on board.
  Stereotypically, you'd use something like a gert or a usb connected arduino as the hardware interface. Then you'd simply "apt-get install octave" or whatever on the pi, write a tiny little perl script or whatever to talk to your hardware interface, and write your PID loop or whatever in octave script on the pi. Along with probably running a web server on the pi to remotely monitor your PID loop, maybe R and gnuplot to make some pretty graphs and stats of how your PID loop is working.
  Of course its more fun to do something much more complicated than a PID loop. Plenty of linux based neural network support, fuzzy logic libraries, etc, just an apt-get install away.
  
  --
  "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
6. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Crookdotter · 2012-01-09 02:58 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Yes, that's my point. You've got the choice of:
  
  R pi + Gertboard
  
  or
  
  R pi + Arduino
  
  Both would be developed on the host linux PC, but Arduino is already rather mature and well supported, and connects via USB with no soldering to your shiny new Raspberry pi. What's the gertboard bringing to the table in addition to what the arduino does already?
7. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 02:59 · Score: 0
  
  The difference is spec. While with the gert expansion, it may become possibly become the same price as an Ardino, the Raspberry Pi still has orders of magnitude more processing power and ram. While for applications, this may be pointless but for other things, it's a god send. Take a robot for example, it may needs lots of calculations before determining the value to send to the motor (especially when dealing with a lot of sensors). Having more processing capabilities just gives your projects that extra room to program in. Also, the Raspberry Pi still has more features like direct support to output to hdmi and having a card reader.
  The raspberry pi already a some gpio pins on it, the gert board just makes things easier to drive basic stuff with less effort.
8. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Joce640k · 2012-01-09 03:06 · Score: 1
  
  The pi literally runs linux, so you develop on board.
  Question is: Will you want to?
  Given a choice, would you want your development environment to be running on such a limited machine? I'm not putting the Pi down, it's great for what it is, but at the the end of the day it's a $25 computer. Anybody who thinks it will compare well to the desktop PC they normally use is deluded.
  
  --
  No sig today...
9. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Vairon · 2012-01-09 03:21 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  There are some aspects that are redundant but there is a lot more that is not. Here are some major differences:
  Arduinos do not run Linux. Their code is written in Assembly, C or C++ but WITHOUT the STL. There is no OS or kernel. It's pure monolithic code running on a Atmel Atmega328, ATmega2560 or similar processor. They support Analog I/O, Digital I/O, I2C, SPI, 1-wire, EEPROM, Serial communication via digital i/o lines or Serial over USB, typical 16Mhz clock speed and 8k of RAM, 32-256K of program storage. It probably uses slightly less power than the Raspberry Pi.
  Raspberry Pi do run Linux. Their code is written in any language supported by an ARM 1176JZF-S CPU with a Linux kernel such as Assembly, C, C++ with STL, Python, Perl, etc. There is a OS such as Debian, Arch with more to follow and a Linux kernel. Code written is traditional Linux code running in a multi-tasking system such as Linux provides. It's run on an ARM 1176JZF-S CPU. They support Digital I/O I2C, SPI, Serial communication via digital i/o (gpio) lines, SD card support, composite video out, HDMI video out, RCA audio out. 700Mhz clock speed, 128-256MB of RAM, 1-32GB of program storage (depending of SD card size).
  Unlike the Raspberry Pi, the Arduino cannot be developed on by itself. It requires another computer running Linux, OS X or Windows in order to develop on them.
  The Gertboard is more akin to what an Arduino shield is for an Arduino. It's just something you plug into a Raspberry Pi to provide access to more of the GPIO pins of the Raspberry Pi's SOC and it has some convenience functionality like LEDs built-in. Like an Arduino shield, it's optional. You can still use GPIO pins on the Raspberry Pi without it.
10. Re:Unsure about the gert... by TheRealMindChild · 2012-01-09 03:21 · Score: 2
  
  Yes, that's my point. You've got the choice of:
  
  R pi + Gertboard
  
  or
  
  R pi + Arduino
  
  I don't have to choose. I'll take both.
  
  --
  
  "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
11. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Zerth · 2012-01-09 03:30 · Score: 1
  
  except with the Gertboard don't expect to be able to use any features in the chip that aren't put into the kernel by Eben and Gert.
  Except the Gertboard is just using GPIOs are presented as standard file interfaces. You can toggle them with any programming language, shellscript, or just typing 'echo 1 > /sys/class/gpio/gpio1/value' at the CLI.
  The GPU may be locked down and worthless for hacking, but the expansion pins are anything but.
12. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Defenestrar · 2012-01-09 03:35 · Score: 1
  
  You forgot to mention the bandwidth differences between embedded software on a microprocessor and an OS controlled I/O system. There is a (theoretical) huge performance difference in high speed/response between the two.
  And to the AC mentioning competition: these are not really in the same product class. There are probably a large number of applications where the end goal could be achieved with either set of hardware, but there are probably more projects which do not overlap (especially if your concerned with efficiency or practicality - perhaps a really ambitious person could assemble the Linux kernel and make a Beowulf cluster of Audrinos..., but QED).
13. Re:Unsure about the gert... by SpinyNorman · 2012-01-09 03:38 · Score: 2
  
  Arduino is a computer, not in of itself an I/O peripheral, so if you wanted to do I/O from a Raperberry Pi via an Arduino you'd basically be sending software commands from the Pi to the Arduino then have a program running on the Arduino to do the actual I/O... it's way more efficient just to use a Gertboard and do I/O directly from the Pi.
  Compare the two:
  Pi + Gertboard - runs at Pi speed (>> Arduino speed), and no need for a seperate I/O program
  Pi + Arduino - I/O constrained by Arduino speed, amnd requires an I/O program on the Arduino in addition to the main program on the Pi
  I can't think of any situation where Pi + Arduino really makes sense. Other than Gertboard for GPIO, using USB peripherals (e.g. servo driver, etc) with Pi makes more sense.
14. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Andy+Dodd · 2012-01-09 03:47 · Score: 1
  
  Good luck using anything like I2C, SPI, etc. then if they aren't implemented in the kernel.
  On most CPUs like this, GPIO vs. SPI vs. something else for a pin needs to be configured using a pinmux tool - the pinmux for this device will be fully undocumented.
  
  --
  retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
15. Re:Unsure about the gert... by lahvak · 2012-01-09 03:55 · Score: 2
  
  I don't get it. I am not a hardware hacker, but why would you need an access to GPU to program input/output?
  
  --
  AccountKiller
16. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Crookdotter · 2012-01-09 04:31 · Score: 1
  
  Fair point.
17. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 04:35 · Score: 0
  
  Good luck using anything like I2C, SPI, etc. then if they aren't implemented in the kernel.
  Any moron can turn a few GPIOs into SPI by just bitbanging. Fortunately. for people like you, they've included SPI and I2C.
  Frankly, the Gertboard is overkill(like most demo boards), but those without imagination need to be shown.
18. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Crookdotter · 2012-01-09 04:36 · Score: 2
  
  Good enough for browsing? Because I could see myslelf with one behind this LCD monitor hooked up to the spare HDMI slot. A PC that runs on effectively battery power for when I only need a browser sounds good to me. Saves me having this i7 on all the time. And I'm sure it could download through the night onto an external HDD for very little power overhead.
19. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Andy+Dodd · 2012-01-09 05:43 · Score: 1
  
  When did I ever say GPU?
  GPU being undocumented and binary-only is basically a given these days.
  However, a CPU being undocumented is a whole different story.
  
  --
  retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
20. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Andy+Dodd · 2012-01-09 05:44 · Score: 2
  
  And you, sir, are a moron if you think bitbanging 12+ MHz SPI is a good idea.
  
  --
  retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
21. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 05:52 · Score: 0
  
  I can't think of any situation where Pi + Arduino really makes sense. Other than Gertboard for GPIO, using USB peripherals (e.g. servo driver, etc) with Pi makes more sense.
  You're discounting the vast array of free and open source libraries already written for the Arduino for thousands of chips. Slogging through a datasheet to write an I2C library for one specific chip isn't exactly fun or easy for most people (I do tend to have fun doing it though).
  Granted, I'm not sure how compatible those libraries would be with the Gertboard (pretty bad name, IMHO).
22. Re:Unsure about the gert... by vlm · 2012-01-09 06:14 · Score: 1
  
  I can't think of any situation where Pi + Arduino really makes sense. Other than Gertboard for GPIO, using USB peripherals (e.g. servo driver, etc) with Pi makes more sense.
  When it inevitably doesn't work, and I need to do the divide and conquer thing, I can attach the Arduino to my desktop linux box and run the exact same code to prove it's not a CPU power thing, or an obscure Pi USB bug, or an obscure Pi bug in general, and/or the heavy desktop has plenty of power and screen realestate to run dumps etc. Also watching/reverse engineering USB signals is very old and well understood so watching how the Arduino and Pi talk to each other should be childs play.
  On the other hand the gert does GPIO, so I could emulate that with a bunch of switches and LEDs like a programmers front panel, or write something on a PIC to act like a Pi, but there's no easy way other than maybe parallel printer port to hook a gert up to a non-Pi PC.
  Finally if you have the guts to do it you can offload most of the grunt work to the arduino processor. I really don't need the headache of synthesizing real time servo control pulses on the PC, any more than I need the headache of porting octave / R / gnuplot / perl / crontab / ntp into the arduino.
  I would agree with you that the interface bus of the future is not the discontinued 1-wire, or SPI, or even the venerable I2C but the bus of the future for embedded work is USB. Theres some pretty good daq stuff out there, some decent motor controllers, USB is just the wave of the future for embedded work. I2C will probably never disappear entirely, but...
  
  --
  "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
23. Re:Unsure about the gert... by vlm · 2012-01-09 06:30 · Score: 1
  
  Anybody who thinks it will compare well to the desktop PC they normally use is deluded.
  Oh, of course it will compare well. Hmm so lets consider the stereotypical educational institution lab task of writing a embedded thermostat. This 10 ohm resistor epoxied to this thermistor will be heated up precisely to happy tropical fish temp... This sounds like a very stereotypical embedded lab, I think I did something like this in school back in '93 using a then new motorola microcontroller. This is a very stereotypical "3 hour lab" type of task.
  The traditional microcontroller method would be to get down in the weeds and write your own floating point routines. A somewhat more modern MC method would be to link in the floating point routine and write it in C. Pi style would be to write a full featured PID control loop in octave or maybe python (or ruby, or scheme, or intercal, or perl, in rough order of readability) and then just run it interpreted style probably as once per minute cron job that sets the next minute's PWM percentage for the resistor based on the historical record of thermistor temperature. You'll probably spend more time fooling with the PID coefficients than doing hardware or software, well thats just life I guess.
  My point is when you're doing something embedded its vital that you have at least 100% of the CPU power you require. But if the Pi has a million times the power you require, it really doesn't matter if in comparison your desktop has a billion times the power you require. You've got massive overkill either way.
  If you are properly engineering to use the cheapest lowest power system that can still do the job, you'd be down in the weeds using a PIC 10F series, those things cost only a buck or so and are packaged in six lead SOT-23 packages and draw what amounts to no electrical power at all. (A SOT-23 is about half the size of an uncooked rice grain, depending on your rice, I guess). I've worked with the 10F series, they're certainly a trip, that's for sure, and even they are probably overkill for a lowly thermostat.
  
  --
  "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
24. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Joce640k · 2012-01-09 06:33 · Score: 1
  
  Good enough for browsing? Because I could see myslelf with one behind this LCD monitor hooked up to the spare HDMI slot.
  Sure ... but the people here are talking about editing and compiling, not browsing.
  
  --
  No sig today...
25. Re:Unsure about the gert... by lahvak · 2012-01-09 06:42 · Score: 1
  
  As I said, I am not a hardware hacker, so I don't really know what I am talking about, but is there a reason why the ARM1176JZF-Sâ Technical Reference Manual from infocenter.arm.com (sorry, I couldn't find a way how to link to documentation for a particular chip in their system) would not be enough?
  
  --
  AccountKiller
26. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Joce640k · 2012-01-09 06:47 · Score: 1
  
  There are some aspects that are redundant but there is a lot more that is not. Here are some major differences:
  Arduinos do not run Linux. Their code is written in Assembly, C or C++ but WITHOUT the STL. There is no OS or kernel.
  You've got, like, 2k of RAM on an Arduino so dynamic memory allocation isn't really a good idea.
  OTOH most noobs are happier doing static memory allocation so overall it's probably a win.
  
  Unlike the Raspberry Pi, the Arduino cannot be developed on by itself. It requires another computer
  This is the bit I don't get, maybe you can explain: Everybody here seems convinced they'll be happily running Linux on a Pi, compiling C++, running Python, whatever.... ...with an SD card for storage? Seriously?
  I give you a morning spent watching gcc/Python grind before you decide life's too short for that and go back to using a real PC for development.
  The Pi's cool for an awful lot of things but it'll totally suck as a development machine.
  And no, USB storage won't be much better than SD.
  
  --
  No sig today...
27. Re:Unsure about the gert... by chispito · 2012-01-09 07:20 · Score: 1
  
  Granted, I'm not sure how compatible those libraries would be with the Gertboard (pretty bad name, IMHO).
  The developer's name is Gert. Give him a break!
  
  --
  The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
28. Re:Unsure about the gert... by euxneks · 2012-01-09 07:25 · Score: 1
  
  Well, you're looking at the board from a different point of view than the developers of RaspberryPi - they wanted this thing DIRT CHEAP so any school could buy one - broadcom I think worked out a deal with them so they could keep costs down.
  
  --
  in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
29. Re:Unsure about the gert... by makomk · 2012-01-09 07:33 · Score: 1
  
  That's the CPU core reference manual. It doesn't cover all the other hardware bits like I/O configuration and clock setup because those are all horribly manufacturer-specific.
30. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Andy+Dodd · 2012-01-09 07:56 · Score: 1
  
  That's just the CPU core documentation - it doesn't document any of the peripherals on a complete SoC, such as the register maps for I/O devices.
  
  --
  retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
31. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Andy+Dodd · 2012-01-09 08:02 · Score: 2
  
  http://www.ti.com/product/am3359 - Note the 20MB TRM that is the third PDF linked on this page. This is the sort of documentation TI provides for their products. This is the sort of documentation you need when hardware hacking.
  Compare to:
  http://www.broadcom.com/products/BCM2835 - nothing but a marketing blurb
  Kernel source code is not sufficient documentation - especially given Broadcom's tendency to put no useful comments into their code, making it impossible to answer questions such as "why the fuck is my CPU getting a 1 Hz wakeup interrupt from this stupid BCM4330's undocumented "BT-AMP" function?"
  
  --
  retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
32. Re:Unsure about the gert... by lahvak · 2012-01-09 08:02 · Score: 1
  
  I see. Thanks you, that makes sense.
  
  --
  AccountKiller
33. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Joce640k · 2012-01-09 08:25 · Score: 1
  
  I don't mean for running the code, I mean for development work. I can't see many people sitting for hours coding on the Pi when they know they've got a proper computer on the next table. It will be just too painful.
  You'll also need another monitor/keyboard/mouse cluttering the place up.
  For simple microcontroller work that just seems like a pain in the butt. Hooking up an Arduino with a USB cable, writing the code, disconnecting the cable then tucking it away behind the fishtank seems an order of magnitude simpler to me.
  The Pi will be brilliant for things that need screens and keyboards, it even does OpenGL! For learning to flash an LED? Not so much.
  I simply don't grok why everybody seems to be pushing it as an "Arduino killer". To me that seems like the last thing I'd want to use a Raspberry Pi for...
  
  --
  No sig today...
34. Re:Unsure about the gert... by vlm · 2012-01-09 09:13 · Score: 1
  
  I don't mean for running the code, I mean for development work. I can't see many people sitting for hours coding on the Pi when they know they've got a proper computer on the next table. It will be just too painful.
  Again, why? What development environment are you using that uses more than a thousandth the power of your desktop for educational-scale labs?
  Will the vim editor magically know its on a pi and magically only work at 5 wpm? Don't think so...
  The problem with dev on one box and run on another is now you have to debug it to the peculiar characteristics of two boxes and environments.
  
  --
  "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
35. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 10:06 · Score: 0
  
  The core and the instruction set is one thing. The problem is all the configuration registers that are needed to use the peripherals, which is up to the manufacturer.
36. Re:Unsure about the gert... by sjames · 2012-01-09 10:43 · Score: 1
  
  The Pi's cool for an awful lot of things but it'll totally suck as a development machine.
  Compiling large C++ projects would be a drag, but a few quick and dirty compiles or running Python should work just fine. On the B model, you could NFS mount some storage as wel for development.
37. Re:Unsure about the gert... by Joce640k · 2012-01-09 21:35 · Score: 1
  
  Seriously though, how many kids/students are going to use vim?
  
  --
  No sig today...
Re:Raspberry Blob by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 02:40 · Score: 5, Informative

Plug it into your tv or ancient flatscreen. Wifi signal your video feed over the air for 25usd and some coding.
I think your imagination is useless.
A fairly general purpose board, not SPI, not pi by vlm · 2012-01-09 02:44 · Score: 2

I looked at the pcb pix and saw the SPI interface lines and incorrectly guessed the whole thing runs off one SPI connection, which would be kind of cool, since pretty much every microcontroller made in the past 30 years is either has SPI hardware support or is at least easy to bit bang SPI. So it would not really be a pi board, but a generic board that works with everything that merely has support to directly plug a pi into it.
However I read the comments and the deal is the breakout board brings 18 GPIO ports from the pi, and you wire the GPIO ports however you want to various peripherals at the GPIO level, one of which is a SPI interface port expander, other things you could wire to are the motor drivers, etc.
So its really a mostly GPIO board with exactly one SPI part, not a board run entirely off just one SPI port. For example, if you have an old fashioned parallel port on your PC, plus or minus some level conversions you could wire that up to this board, etc.
The other interesting comment I read was something similar to "if you want arduino shield support on a pi, simply plug an arduino into the USB port and plug the shield into the arduino and talk to the Ardunino using the linux usb drivers", which is brilliantly simple.

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
1. Re:A fairly general purpose board, not SPI, not pi by Zerth · 2012-01-09 03:38 · Score: 2
  
  As parallel ports become rarer(if not extinct already), I could see this becoming the best way to control CNC/3d printers once somebody ports a RTOS version of Linux to it.
2. Re:A fairly general purpose board, not SPI, not pi by daid303 · 2012-01-09 04:43 · Score: 1
  
  They are already using the Arduino to do this . Which gives good results. Controlling a CNC any other way strikes me as stupid. Because you want some very hard real-time timing.
  Example: https://github.com/bkubicek/Marlin
3. Re:A fairly general purpose board, not SPI, not pi by vlm · 2012-01-09 06:04 · Score: 1
  
  As parallel ports become rarer(if not extinct already), I could see this becoming the best way to control CNC/3d printers once somebody ports a RTOS version of Linux to it.
  I have a CNC mill in the basement and your theory is pretty much on track for current applied work.
  CNC mills are mostly PCI or motherboard printer port controlled right now, no they are not extinct although endangered species is probably appropriate phrase, and semi-intelligent USB attached controllers have been moving into the market for quite a few years.
  The problem with the USB controllers is they are generally not too smart and don't handle lookahead/smoothing as well as printer port and real time PC based controllers. In other words on the PC your typical controller, like EMC2, will look ahead some distance and smooth the path so your specified feed rate remains constant, but the simpler USB controllers just try to make every move a smooth trapezoid of speed up, cruise, slow down. This is kind of bad for surface finish and endmill lifetime, in addition to being horribly slow.
  If you still do the old fashioned paper magazine thing, there are a couple magazines I'd recommend reading the ads from, like digital machinist and home shop machinist and to a lesser extent machinists workshop.
  The hard real time thing isn't as bad as you'd think until you get to exotic industrial levels of performance. If you can play mp3s on the box, you can generate 1s and 0s fast enough for any non-exotic cnc application. HOWEVER those skips and pauses in mp3 playback are not just "shrug shoulders" in CNC work, that means on CNC you just snapped off another $5 endmill and ruined another workpiece (or worse) so it becauses an exercise in how much overkill do you need to guarantee five nines performance ... the answer seems to be lot of overkill indeed.
  The fairly obvious answer of replacing a real time g-code interpreter with a g-code compiler has not been commercially successful, to the best of my knowledge, because adaptive speed controls, limit switch detection, e-stop detection are all more computationally intensive than simple g-code interpretation so there seems little gain.
  
  --
  "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
4. Re:A fairly general purpose board, not SPI, not pi by sjames · 2012-01-09 10:45 · Score: 1
  
  They're all too close to extinct. I really wish the USB spec for parallel ports had included the bit banging capabilities.
5. Re:A fairly general purpose board, not SPI, not pi by vlm · 2012-01-10 01:19 · Score: 1
  
  I really wish the USB spec for parallel ports had included the bit banging capabilities.
  From personal experience in the CNC field the killer for USB "parallel" port CNC is USB jitter.
  There's nothing stopping you from implementing a "USB printer" client device where every time the "printer" sees UTF-8 left arrow it jogs the table in a +X direction.
  Its just that real world experiments with that have miserably failed due to jitter. Move the attached USB mouse and the endmill snaps off, etc.
  
  --
  "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
6. Re:A fairly general purpose board, not SPI, not pi by sjames · 2012-01-10 06:23 · Score: 1
  
  The jitter could be a problem for some applications, less so for others.
  It can be controlled with a custom driver to some degree, though it'll never match the real parallel port.
  Character oriented control can be done over a USB parallel port, sure. But there is a lot of value in being able to treat a real parallel port as a series of DIO lines that can be controlled independently..
Better Boards From Open Source Friendly Devs by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 03:04 · Score: 0, Informative

These boards are only a few weeks away, far more powerful, low priced and have nothing to do with broadcommm
http://rhombus-tech.net/
http://elinux.org/Embedded_Open_Modular_Architecture/PCMCIA
1. Re:Better Boards From Open Source Friendly Devs by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 03:21 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Uuum, I looked at those sites. And all I see is "in the pipeline", "if you have any ideas", "mailing list" and "could potentially be developed as X".
  There are no ways to order anything, not even a name to call whatever they are doing. Not even pictures.
  Either I overlooked something, or this is the king of vaporware and hasn't passed the "Well, we thought it would be cool to have X. But we haven't anything more to offer." stage.
  Can you point me to a link where I can put my money and get a Raspberry-Pi-like board that I can plug my keyboard, display, sound, storage and network into, and install Linux on?
2. Re:Better Boards From Open Source Friendly Devs by Narishma · 2012-01-09 04:05 · Score: 1
  
  By weeks I suppose you mean months or years.
  
  --
  Mada mada dane.
3. Re:Better Boards From Open Source Friendly Devs by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 04:31 · Score: 0
  
  My goodness! The preorder page is on the wiki:
  http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/orders/
  Do you work for Broadcommm?
4. Re:Better Boards From Open Source Friendly Devs by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 04:49 · Score: 1
  
  Hrm. Preorder something that hasn't even had a demo board, or even a finalized pinout yet, and costs "somewhere between $15(for 100k units) and $100", or wait to buy from a charity that has repeatedly refused to take orders until they had a shipping product and already has a firm price based on components that they have already purchased by mortgaging their own homes.
  I know which one utterly fails to inspire trust.
  
  Do you work for Broadcommm?
  Do you work in the Allwinner tech writing department?
5. Re:Better Boards From Open Source Friendly Devs by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 05:20 · Score: 0
  
  Do you mean Broadcommm or Broadcom?
  Bearing in mind I can pretty much guarantee you have some device in your possession that has some sort of Broadcom chip in it, are you sure YOU are in your right mind?
6. Re:Better Boards From Open Source Friendly Devs by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 12:09 · Score: 0
  
  I think they meant Boardcon, to match the name with integrity of the company.
7. Re:Better Boards From Open Source Friendly Devs by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 22:59 · Score: 0
  
  Have you any proof of lack of integrity, and no, I don't count lack of documentation as a lack on integrity. They are completely different subjects.
Postfix increment by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 03:25 · Score: 0

Tut tut. What do I spy on that screen?
Yes indeed, a postfix increment in the for() loop.
Amateurs!
1. Re:Postfix increment by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 05:27 · Score: 0
  
  Congrats, your reason for existing has been satisfied for today. Continue about your business, and see you tomorrow!
Hardware folk shouldn't write code by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 03:28 · Score: 0

The board and hardware are great and all that, but looking at the screen and following the explanation I think this serves as yet another excellent example why hardware people should stick to designing hardware and get someone else to write the software.
1. Re:Hardware folk shouldn't write code by FunkyELF · 2012-01-09 04:15 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Python makes everything cleaner.
  # Make the 17 GPIO file systems & set them to output mode
  for g in gpiotbl:
  with open('/sys/class/gpio/export', 'w') as fout:
  print >> fout, "%d" % g
  with open('/sys/class/gpio%d/direction' % g, 'w') as fout:
  print >> fout, "out"
  # light effect on buffers
  for rep in xrange(5):
  for g in gpiotbl[:12]:
  with open('/sys/class/gpio/gpio%d/value' % g, 'w') as fout:
  print >> fout, "1"
  sleep(TIME)
  for g in gpiotbl[:12]:
  with open('/sys/class/gpio/gpio%d/value' % g, 'w') as fout:
  print >> fout, "0"
  sleep(TIME)
  test_motor()
  test_motor()
  sys.exit(0)
2. Re:Hardware folk shouldn't write code by rufty_tufty · 2012-01-09 04:42 · Score: 1
  
  Speaking as an ignorant hardware engineer, where's the problem with the original (as a method for driving LEDs for a test program)?
  Pick your battles and all that...
  
  --
  "The weirdest thing about a mind, is that every answer that you find, is the basis of a brand new cliche" -
3. Re:Hardware folk shouldn't write code by Joce640k · 2012-01-09 06:50 · Score: 1
  
  Python makes everything cleaner.
  Oh yeah, that's as clean/clear as mud.
  
  --
  No sig today...
4. Re:Hardware folk shouldn't write code by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-10 00:14 · Score: 0
  
  On which planet is that cleaner than the original?
5. Re:Hardware folk shouldn't write code by FunkyELF · 2012-01-10 03:05 · Score: 1
  
  That was a 1:1 port. Using classes you could make it even more clean by having a gpio class.
  gpios = [GPIO(i) for i in xrange(17)]
  for _ in xrange(5):
  for gpio in gpios:
  gpio.setValue(1)
  sleep(TIME)
  for gpio in gpios:
  gpio.setValue(0)
  sleep(TIME)
6. Re:Hardware folk shouldn't write code by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-23 13:10 · Score: 0
  
  The code was written to be easy to understand by someone with little to no coding ability, and also emphasise that you could easily use a bash script to write it (although with that in mind I don't know why he didn't just write a bash script). And you'd have to admit it does meet those goals.
  And he does have a Masters in CS, FWIW.
Yay through-hole by Medievalist · 2012-01-09 03:30 · Score: 2

Yeah, we're all very proud of you, that you can solder teeny tiny little things. I can solder with a gasoline torch, you whippersnapper. Now get off my lawn.
1. Re:Yay through-hole by Dunbal · 2012-01-09 05:56 · Score: 2
  
  I don't solder, I suture living tissue. Now both of you behave.
  
  --
  Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Re:Raspberry Blob by Toonol · 2012-01-09 03:31 · Score: 4, Insightful

The Raspberry Pi is a good litmus test for imagination. If you read or talk about it and have a tingle, you have an imagination. If you think it's pointless, you're dead inside.
Can't wait! by slashmojo · 2012-01-09 03:59 · Score: 1

These things are going to fly off the shelves like hot pies!
Will be interesting to see if the makers at LMR put them to good use.. http://letsmakerobots.com/
I may have to dust off the soldering iron and "electronics for dummies" soon to join the fun.
Knight Rider? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 04:02 · Score: 1

Well we have the flashing led, and the motor to control the steering. Just need the voice synthesiser (pull apart a c64 for that) and you have yourself one turbo-boosty, sarcastic car!
1. Re:Knight Rider? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-13 08:14 · Score: 0
  
  Well we have the flashing led, and the motor to control the steering. Just need the voice synthesiser (pull apart a c64 for that) and you have yourself one turbo-boosty, sarcastic car!
  It already runs linux. You just need a speaker.
  $ espeak "knight rider is already inside my computer"
ECN by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 04:06 · Score: 0

Might need a few changes before it hits the big time
- add mounting holes
- reroute power gnd so its not like some sweet ass comb the fonz would use
- move non-isolated to220 parts away from 0.1" headers so they don't short if bent
- move smd capacitors / resistors away from heatsink so this doesn't short
- teardrop traces that connect to commonly used / terminated breakout pads so they don't break if rework is required
- consider series resistors between mcu and ics to reduce emi
- consider better ground / power routing
- figure out use for random tracks that seem to go nowhere
Not sure why a board like this hits front page... Slashdot has plenty of good EE readers, boards like this burns their eyes.
1. Re:ECN by psergiu · 2012-01-09 04:30 · Score: 1
  
  You're free to come on the Raspberry Pi forum and help Gert to make the board better - he's open to constructive comments & ideas.
  
  --
  1% APY, No fees, Online Bank https://captl1.co/2uIErYq Don't let your $$$ sit in a no-interest acct.
Re:Raspberry Blob by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 04:15 · Score: 1

Combined with an old desktop monitor/speakers this will make an awesome streaming solution for my home gym and at a few hundred quid cheaper than most of the alternative solutions, agreed GP is the issue not the RPi.
model-A is damn close to 1 watt Re:Neat! by Fubari · 2012-01-09 05:10 · Score: 3, Informative

They're using 5v over micro usb. Model-A's 300mA works out to 0.3A*5V = 1.5 watts. Model-B's 700mA is 0.7A*5V=3.5 watts. (I'd go with Model B just to double the ram (256MB) + ethernet.)
While the gp will have to account for the efficiency of their power supply as well, I'm pretty impressed w/the rPi. It looks really cool. Here is a nice nice overview, the power-suppy section links to the parent's "archives/260" reference.

From http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/260 Model B owners using networking and high-current USB peripherals will require a supply which can source 700mA (many phone chargers meet this requirement). Model A owners with powered USB devices will be able to get away with a much lower current capacity (300mA feels like a reasonable safety margin).
Re:Raspberry Blob by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 05:26 · Score: 1

Last time I checked, the manufacturer of the SoC that is on this board would not release the data-sheet to end users. If you don't have a proper data-sheet on the SoC, then I'd say it is the board that is pretty much dead. Oh wait, I'm supposed to *imagine* a data-sheet...
WHY DOESN'T BROADCOM RELEASE THE DATA SHEET FOR THE CPU? Not useful unless documented.
Re:Raspberry Blob by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 05:27 · Score: 0

The world needs ditch diggers, too.
Please get it through your heads!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 05:31 · Score: 4, Insightful

Arduino and Raspberry Pi are not competators in any way. They target two different markets whereby they have very slight overlap for hobbiests. The Pi simply can not compete with Arduino/AVR on the low end and Arduino/AVR can not compete with RPi on the highend. There's only a tiny intersection between the two and that's likely only because you have one or the other whereby a "close enough" solution is satisfactory.
AVR/Arduino has solutions in the $1-$6 range, if you want to use an inexpensive ISP and break out the coresponding pins on your bare bones or really bare bones controller. Not to mention, the pins are easy to access with a multitude of more pins available. It also has some capabilities which are simply not available without a Gert board, which makes the pi all the more expensive. Furthermore, an RPi is basically as barebones as you're going to see - at least for a while - if ever. Whereas for the AVR/Arduino solution makes it easy to transplant your Arduino project into a barebones $3-$9 project.
Furthermore, these two projects are really far and away much more complimentary technologies than they are competators. Basically, let the RPi do the heavy CPU lifting and the AVR's do the GPIO and bit flipping. Its a combination made in heaven.
1. Re:Please get it through your heads!!! by Joce640k · 2012-01-09 06:56 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Agree 100%, the overlap is tiny.
  The Pi has a keyboard, video output and a lot more CPU power. It will be used for projects where that's important.
  The Arduino does hobby electronics much better/easier/cheaper than the Pi.
  
  --
  No sig today...
2. Re:Please get it through your heads!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 07:44 · Score: 1
  
  Why this hasn't been moderated up is beyond me.
  +1 Informative.
Re:Raspberry Blob by Dunbal · 2012-01-09 05:48 · Score: 0

If you think it's pointless, you're dead inside.
Or a humanities major.

--
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Alternate AVR Runtime by evildeece · 2012-01-09 08:41 · Score: 3, Informative

I got fed up with it too, thats why I started MHVLib, a runtime for AVRs that doesn't try and hide its nature. My design philosophy is that embedded controllers are low on resources, and the runtime should be as lean as possible. http://www.makehackvoid.com/project/MHVLib
Re:Raspberry Blob by julesh · 2012-01-09 11:29 · Score: 1

The APIs provided to interface with the system are more than adequately documented. The pin-outs are documented. What else do you really need?
Mother-f'in BEAGLE BONE by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-09 17:26 · Score: 0

That's all.