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UK Green Lights HS2 High Speed Rail Line
An anonymous reader writes "The United Kingdom has given the green light to the first phase of its proposed High Speed Two train line. In response to environmental concerns, the route for HS2 will now include extra tunneling in the first 90 miles, so not to disrupt the natural beauty of the English countryside. The first phase will connect London to Birmingham and could be functional by 2026."
...any chance they'll ever fix the horrible mess they've made of the non-high speed lucky-if-you-get-there-alive train service in the UK?
14 years to complete just part of it?? It took only six years for the greatest mobilization in world history to defeat the Axis.
Lots of beautiful English countryside south of Manchester. Also lots of stockbrokers / rich city types who don't want their countryside fantasy shattered by noisy development work. A bit like the rich lords and ladies 150 years ago who complained about their views being ruined the first time they put railway lines across the land.
Though to be fair there are ecological concerns to be taken into account this time round seeing as we've got less countryside left.
Save 50% of the cost and make it a one way southbound line.
I don't know a single Londoner who voluntarily would want to travel to the grim north.
You probably haven't been to much south of Manchester either. There's the peak district, dartmoor, norfolk, The chilterns (the ones that the HS2 protesters worry about), and the south downs to name just a few.
That looks like a lot of well-grazed and well-sown fields and hills, not much natural beauty. Some, but not much.
Which is why it is funny in a way that Lord Astor has suggested that HS2 is unnecessary and an improved Internet backbone for better video conferencing would be a more sensible use of the money. The fibre link from London to Birmingham could easily be laid along the existing railway or canal network.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Its capacity and cost. A return from Leeds to london tomorrow will cost £123 off peak. That's just under 200 miles so its chaper to drive. If you want the chapest travel then you would go by coach for £9.50. It seems to me that for the same or less than HS2 they could have longer platforms, double decker coaches (like in France) and get the cost down. I would rather have a 2 hour service for about £30 that I could actually use than a 50 minute one for £200.
Believe me, I've lived in that bit of England, it is anything but beautiful. The "Chilterns area of outstanding natural beauty" is anything but. Firstly the Chiltern hills are not hills, it is at best slightly above the level of the surrounding countryside, which is perfectly flat. Secondly it's all been built on for the last 2 thousand years, in any other country it would be called a suburb of London.
I mean, it's pretty compared to the rest of southern England, but England south and east of Manchester is so overcrowded that there is not one square foot of wilderness left. Their areas of 'outstanding natural beauty' are neither outstanding nor beautiful. A high speed rail line is not going to significantly impact on the landscape.
It is of dubious value anyway. They say that it'll cut the journey time down to 50 minutes. It's only 100 miles or 160 km. That's a little over 100 miles per hour, but in theory the current trains are capable of 125 miles per hour which means the journey should take 48 minutes *with the current trains*. But on a 100 mile journey most of the time is spent stopping and starting or stopping at intermediate stations. Perhaps they should consider simply improving the current track, or running express trains? It's like the flight to Edinburgh from london, it takes 90 mins to cover 400 miles in a plane that flies at 500mph. Why does it take 90 mins? Because it spends 30 mins flying from London to Edinburgh, and an hour taxying, taking off, waiting for a landing slot, landing, and taxying again. This high speed train will be the same, by the time it has left the station, passed through london, passed through the chilterns at 50mph (so as not to disturb the badgers or whatever), passed through all the towns at 50mph, sped up, slowed down and arrived in Birmingham it will have travelled 50 miles at 200mph and the rest at less than 60mph. How else can a 100 mile journey at 200mph take an hour?
Add to that that the rail system in the UK is so expensive that ultimately noone will use this. Right now a 160km journey from London to Birmingham, one way, *with no guarantee of a seat*, will cost about 80 euros at peak times and take an hour and a half. (From http://www.thetrainline.com). Yeah you can find them cheaper, but they are during the day or bought a year in advance.
Even the journey from London to Edinburgh (ie the two main capital cities in the UK) takes 4 and a half hours and costs at least as much, probably more like 200 euros. It's only 600 km.
The rail system is so bad people in the UK either drive or fly; after all it's only a wee island, there's not much need for flying either.
Having been following the progress of HS2 through Parliament, I think it's safe to assume that the main means of transport that it will be enable will be yachts for the various Ministers, CEOs and lobbyists concerned in railroading (ho ho) it through.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
there is supposedly going to be a maglev service between Tokyo and Nagoya (around 300km depending on the route taken).
The really interesting thing about this new line is the amount of money they're pumping into it compared to the amount of money they're pumping into getting decent broadband into the country: http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/4962-why-the-vision-for-hs2-and-not-for-broadband.html
Essentially, the estimate for 100% FTTH coverage of the UK was about £29billion - a lot of money for sure. This project is going to cost £33Billion just for phase one (Birmingham -> London). This project will get funded about £2.2billion per year, while broadband rollout is only getting 162million per year.
The argument is simple - if everyone has access to fast internet, then the need to travel to london is greatly reduced. Sure, people will still need to travel, but all those meetings and such could easily be done via teleconferencing.
+1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
The chilterns are moderately pretty, but not in the same class as the others you mention. Most of it was ruined decades ago by people building large country houses. What remains is spoilt by far too many houses, major roads and expensive cars. There are much worse places to put a train line.
The actual concern is not environmental in a scientific sense, but property prices.
This is what is called a "Keynesian stimulus program"[2]. It's purpose is to spend 300 billion[1] into the economy in order to inflate the national debt away, save the banks and the contractors. At the taxpayers and citizens expense, the currency will be devalued causing inflation and taxpayers will have to service increased interest payments. The people who will be hit hardest by the additional inflation and taxation are the old, and the poor.
If they had spent the money on something useful, it would have crowded out the private sector, so they have to spend it on something which has no particular relevance; saving 20 mins between Birmingham and London is totally irrelevant.
[1] Yes, it says 32 billion now...
[2] Google Keynes, bottles and coal mines.
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which will benefit anyone but the middle class or poor. High Speed rail rarely if ever pays for itself and never benefits those who the politicians claim its aimed at. If anything it has been shown in countries like Spain is that in concentrates wealth in already wealthy cities because it gives greater ease of mobility to those who already have the wealth. Think, businessmen no longer needing to live in the city they work in but instead they can live in a resort style city or coastal city usually connected by these systems.
No, most of these newer rails systems are feel good projects usually funneling money into some favored groups pocket and then to the politicians who sponsor them. The Economist did some great articles on these systems many months ago. What ends up happening is the losses incurred by the communities where the trains don't stop are higher than the gains achieved. Worse, there is a never ending subsidy for those riding the trains which is a reverse transfer of wealth (to the wealthy). I have nothing against the wealthy, I just don't see why we don't call it out for what it is.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
It's like the entire city decides to go for a walk in the country at the same time.
Crowds of inappropriately dressed people squashed into every little patch of green they can find.
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The T34, which was arguably the war-winning weapon for the Russians in its various incarnations, used a BMW-designed advanced light Diesel engine. You could say that BMW was on the Russian team.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
The Poles are increasingly doing the middle class jobs. The Russians...the oligarchs will loan the money to the Government so that the Government won't extradite them to Russia when Putin needs a rouble or two.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
If germany hadn't been defeated do you think Hitler would have stopped at the atlantic? The nazis and the japanese would invaded and nicely carved up the USA so you'd probably have bullet trains running across your country by now and be eating at McSushi.
The route passes through the Chilterns, an officially designated area of outstanding natural beauty. I'm in favour of the link but some pretty stuff will get trashed.
http://blog.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/2011/04/cycling-in-the-chilterns
Or course this will cost billions more and reducing time to Birmingham for that amount is pointless - Train delays will add this back on.
It's just a shame by 2030 that amount of money only buys a system which is years old by today's standards. Why not aim higher? Or build in space to allow for greater. It will need to be done at some point.
Make work, tax pump up the economy money debt should be used to build some infrastructure. Infrastructure second to none to get something that will benefit generations. Make space for ultra wide, mega long, triple decker trains. There will be 120million people in the UK soon and our grandchildren will have to fix this, why not start now? Ohh that's right, only invest to the next election.
The Chilterns are bumps in an otherwise pancake-flat landnonscape. "Officially designated" or not, they are as ugly as a badly paved sidewalk. I like to designate "beauty" for myself, and not leave that to the government.
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
"2026" and nevertheless "could be"?
So Her Majesty's government is certainly not preparing anything similar to what J.F. Cooper called a "hasty pudding"...
Thus, High Speed Rail may or may not reach the Scottish border before the end of the current century, anybody willing to place a bet against that?
We were evicted from our rusty chainlink fence.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Thus, High Speed Rail may or may not reach the Scottish border before the end of the current century, anybody willing to place a bet against that?
Why would you bother? Nobody of any importance lives in Scotland.
British accountants frequently combine arrogance with ignorance; their inability to understand how businesses really work has been one of the reasons for failure of UK PLC.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
I would write more (I was around at the time and had to use that road a lot, so it was a matter of considerable interest) but the laws of libel in the UK are such that I can only write "see what's in the public domain".
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
I got carried away. It is true that the protests at the A46 Solsbury Hill added to the cost of the road, but to attribute it to a pair of journalists, no matter how influential, is ridiculous and I apologise. There was a general anti-road feeling in the early 90s, and they just tapped into the public mood. Please put it down to a severe attack of sciatica. I will now stop posting until it returns to tolerable levels.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
"Let's go to Birmingham", from 1960, shows the trip by rail from London to Birmingham in two hours. With a nice lunch. (That's a fun video to watch. You can see why the existing rail route isn't suitable for high speed trains.) The current Virgin Rail timetable shows a time of 1 hour 24 minutes from London (Euston) to Birmingham. Tunneling half the distance to speed that up seems excessive.
Very little "natural beauty" anywhere where people have lived for the last 10,000 years... a continuing debate in environmental circles as there is little 'untouched' land anywhere in the world, and certainly not near population centres.
Many wild and beautiful windswept moors are only so in the UK because our ancestors deforested these areas.
See also the debate about whether to re-introduce wolves to Scotland.
Can someone tell me what is the part two of this? It is a supposed better technology/implementation that gives better speed/efficiency/whatever? Or it is just the name of the plan for the new developments (as in "Phase two of HS railway building"?)
Why can't
first phase takes 14 years? holy shit.
The transcontinental that stretched 1,000 miles from Omaha to the west coast though the sierras took 6 years to build. By Hand.
I'm guessing it's because the Chinese and the Irish didn't stand around in groups of six taking a smoke break watching one guy dig a hole. And the Mormons probably didn't smoke.
hA! :P
Sigh.. we can't even get high speed rail STARTED in California, even though we voted for it. It's probably going to be completely cancelled soon.
If the Bismarck or (particularly) the Yamato had been protected by air support, the outcomes might have been delayed. The Yamato was the mightiest battleship ever, sunk from the air.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
Yamato had big guns but crawled. But the Iowa classes had faster engines, longer range and radar aimed guns. If she had met one on the open seas she was toast anyhow.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'