Slashdot Mirror
"Learn To Code, Get a Job" According To CNN
An anonymous reader writes "CNN is running an opinion article that talks about Michael Bloomberg's taking part in CodeAdacemy's CodeYear program, which aims to teach average people to learn enough to work as a Software Developer by year end. I'm trying to not be elitist in judging this article and those involved, but I'm curious as to what /. thinks of this questionable plan."
How does Code Academy make it any easier to learn to code, Than say documentation or a book? This is hardly a big deal, and they're making silly promises.
Don't we want all of our code lean?
Get your PostgreSQL here: http://www.commandprompt.com/
NYC Mayor Bloomberg Vows To Learn To Code In 2012
You can get a job as a software developer in the same sense as a lot of people could go through HTML For Dummies and get jobs as Web Developers. That's great when companies are hungry for anyone even minimally qualified, but it's not going to do much for keeping your job when they start having to actually work with and maintain your work product.
One of my pet hates is working with programmers who are doing it only because they need a job. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be here if I didn't get paid, but programmers without passion for what they do write lousy and uninspired software. People with passion are unlikely to end up in such a scheme, so I don't really see a big benefit.
Lots of people learn to code on their own from books, online articles and magazines (I did). Surely even a little guidance could kickstart the process the process for a reasonable and motivated candidate.
Nullius in verba
I've worked with plenty of people who had 5+ years of "experience" who perform at the competency level of a 1st year coder. Especially in very large companies I've found that the day-to-day tasks are usually designed to shield the employees from any apparent consequences of their own incompetence or any risk of becoming competent. Typically, 90% of the job is just being attractive and good-smelling enough that your co-workers can be nice to you without trying hard.
Average users have a hard enough time even using software competently after a year's time. Let alone creating it.
Just think about many people still don't know how to find something simple like the control panel in XP after all these years...
Someone making promises that are fake but will reinforce uneducated PHB's
"Why should we pay you more? anyone can become a expert coder by studying at home part time for a year."
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I remember first semester freshman year. The weed-out EE course was full of bright-faced eager kids convinced they were gonna get a good paying job when they graduated.
2 weeks later the class size was cut in half when they found out how much work was involved.
Anyone can learn to write a "Hello World" program but that doesn't make them a software professional.
...everyone knows that if you will just take a few weeks to learn to program, you can start making 60k or more a year within a month or two.
Ok, granted, this story wasn't quite THAT bad, and the idea that everyone should take a few weeks to learn what programming IS, the concepts, is probably a good idea. However, the idea that you can learn to be a programmer in one year is foolish. I've never had any formal training, self taught in Perl, javascript, some PHP, and been doing it as a minor part of my job for 15 years, and I'm not a programmer. Having at least moderate skills, to understand what a shell script or batch file is, what HTML code is and does, will help you in your job, but you aren't going to start creating more real programmers with one year, even if that is all they do is learn 24/7 for that year.
What there is a shortage of is people with MORE than one year of training as a programmer. People who can write good code, instead of the bloated crap that I write to just get the job done. But that isn't what this article is about, it is about promising something that won't happen, that learning a little coding will guarantee you a job. It won't help a forklift driver, someone used to working on an assembly line that is now part of a closed factory, or half the people looking for work now. It will do them personally good to understand a little, but it won't be the cure for our unemployment.
Unemployment is high right now, not because companies can't find good people, but because companies are afraid to take on the responsibility (and liability) of expanding and hiring until they absolutely have to, due to a messed up political and financial environment.
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
Sorry, but I've been at it for about that long (learning Java) and I'm nowhere near qualified to do it professionally. Sure, I know the syntax and I have a good understanding of OOP but there's a LOT more for me to learn before I can write software people will actually find useful.
I love programming and I love learning about it. The discouraging part is that there is almost ZERO entry-level work in programming. All the ads I see demand "3-5 years experience", but that's another story.
We already have too many coders at my current employer, what we need are software developers that know how to architect a maintainable system.
main ()
{
printf )"Hello World! I am now a Software Developer!\n");
}
Congratulations, here is your certificate of completion.
Silence is a state of mime.
I've been in this business for 30 years. Most code I've seen does indeed look like it was designed and written like a "lean-to".... and I have great faith that it will continue to do so as long as I live, and long after I'm gone too.
A major argument of the opinion piece is that having at least a rudimentary understanding of how computers and software actually work is increasingly important, and that learning some programming is a good way to accomplish that. I doubt anyone here would argue with that.
The second half of the article, while not explicitly saying it, does suggest that if a person spends a little time learning to code they'll magically get an awesome ("high-paying", in the words of the author) job. This is a major oversimplification, at least. The author provides no convincing evidence that this is true, except for a quote from his CEO friend.
Peter Norvig's "Teach Yourself To Programming In Ten Years" http://norvig.com/21-days.html
Pretty much sums it up. There have also been many posters so far that have mentioned you can't just "make" someone a programmer. They have to want it, to enjoy it and to already "be" a programmer in mind and spirit. Same goes for the new British thing of forcing gradeschool kids to learn programming. Having it available as an option would be great, but forcing them into it won't give you more programmers, much less good ones. Meanwhile, all the kids that were going to become programmers will still do it whether you encourage them or not. Simple as that.
Surely the "Lean" up above is a typo, but there is a serious problem of late with Slashdotters and their spelling and grammar abilities. People who learned English as a second or third language get a pass, but for all you up and coming kids who are native speakers, what the fuck?
(my two hamfisted cents. I'm going back to Skyrim)
do() || do_not();
The above is NOT flamebait, o moderators. I meant it. I've been listening to, and reading, "blah, blah, stupid users never learn anything" since the 90's, and I think these criticisms are disingenuous as hell. Along comes an easy, fun set of lessons on the rudiments of programming, and people are deriding it for: too much media attention, too simple, too popular, et cetera. If your stance is, "I like being a computer geek because it allows me to look down on others," then that's your sad bag, but at least be honest about it. Only good can come from average people coming to realize that this stuff isn't some magic inborn to the 7th son of a rocket scientist; it just takes curiosity and persistence. I am calling bullshit on your defensive insecurity, and I have the Slashdot karma to burn doing it, tyvm.
If in the meantime a half million bad ideas get killed off by Krappy Koders badly executing them, how is that a "Bad Thing"?
Anything that hastens the day when we have real standards is a good thing.
At least thedailywtf.com will have an inexhaustible supply of new material once all of these people get exciting jobs in the fast-paced software industry.
Programming is like driving a car, everyone thinks they are really good at it but everyone else sucks.
STFU about slashdot bias.
I agree, that's actually my point, which you're taking the piss out of.
There is an awful lot of room for "not the best coder in the world" out there, javascript, access, whatever. And the more "not the best" we have doing useful stuff the more gets done, the less stupid stuff we good ones must do, and the more important interfaces offer basic coding friendly APIs for us to exploit.
In fact, I'm certainly "not the best" myself. I'm actually a mathematician by training. I love Haskell, C++, and Perl, but basically I learn whatever I need for whatever I'm doing, and then move on. I've never actually won at codegolf, but I've contributed useful insights even there.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
And you're the guy we probably fired.
"Happily lived Mankind in the peaceful Valley of Ignorance." -- Hendrik Willem Van Loon
Good code comes from insight, creativity and other specific talents. Learning a language and learning how to program (two very different things) only help if the basis consisting of the aforementioned qualities is there.
Average people will just write atrocious code, that may or may not work and will be a maintenance nightmare. Typically, it is best to throw such code away, sack the person responsible and start over. At the same time, people are being lied to here by being told that they can become reasonable coders and are being lured in with the promise of job opportunities. I find that despicable.
If this sounds elitist, well, it is just realistic. You cannot qualify average people to be reasonable doctors, mathematicians, engineers, poets, ... either. All of these require specific talents. If you don't have them you should definitely not go there, because you will do more harm than good.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
they might learn to think a bit more logically. And that would not be a bad thing.
maybe that is the 'unique' thing ? i have never heard a popularized attempt to teach coding to masses.
Read radical news here
I'm a martial arts instructor. Inevitably, a time comes when certain types of people ask me to teach them some "quick self defense." What I tell them is that I can pretty much show them all the basics they need to know in a long day; but that without knowing when to use these things, how to use them, what degree of the various implementations to apply, learning to see things coming sooner, hopefully before they create mayhem upon your person... it does very little good.
I see programming as somewhat like that. I can show how to write a conditional loop, maybe teach what a class is, talk about different kinds of variables... but without considerable experience wrapped around those things, not to mention at least some math, some tech savvy, some idea about what hardware actually consists of, and a goodly bit of time, you're not going to be a "programmer" any more than a day under my tender care will turn you into Bruce Lee.
Which is not to say you can't go out and get those things over the long term (by which I do not mean one year, btw). But most people are looking for the easy fix, and they, consequently, are going nowhere.
Just an IMHO from a bit of a cynic.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
It's not a calling, it's a profession and you can learn it just like you can learn any other profession. Yes, you have to be intelligent enough to handle the concepts, but that's it and they aren't that hard.
No, you insensitive clod! The guys who made the mistake of hiting them will learn the lesson the hard way! :)
Delta-Mike November Bravo Tango
I'm looking at all this with some dismay. Of course, learning a little javascript or [better, since it was designed for non-specialists] BASIC won't make people a real-world top-class coder, software engineer etc. Therefore, if people are realistic about expectations, this activity is fine, a little over-hyped perhaps, but fine.
Secondly motivation and progression. Some people just want to learn a little code, for example, to process the csv file for their charity group or simply have fun messing around, learning for simple needs or out of curiosity. Others, especially people who are motivated but haven't access to paid-for tuition can use this [as they used to use teach-yourself etc] as a starting point for a more serious assault on computer science. Learning isn't just about jobs, instant skills or being the 'best' immediately.
It won't teach them to listen hard to users or any humility, but that's another separate matter for a huge flame-filled thread.
On y va, qui mal y pense!
And you call yourselves nerds...
Look, you seriously don't need to know a lot to get started. Some people are talented enough to learn as they go.
And just because you learn something doesn't mean you're going to enter one of the most competitive development marketplaces in the world to do it professionally. Those that do probably would have anyway.
I would like to see programming in highschools. Seriously teach it to everyone, like Spanish. You learn things that are absolutely critical in life when you learn how to program, and a lot of supposedly normal well adjusted people are lacking some of these basic analytical and coping skills. Programming teaches problem solving, patience, linear thinking, humility, and an eye for detail. People that are artistically inclined will find that programming skills make them better artists. People who are not artically inclined will find that programming skills make them better people. Those are the things you take with you, even if you can't remember how to output hello world in base64 a year later.
Maybe I'm being narrow minded and biased, but I'm not seeing the downside.
This signature has Super Cow Powers
Teaching them how to react PROPERLY when their fight or flight response kicks in.
You know, like when your adrenaline levels hit 125 heart beats per minute, and your body goes into its first stage of panic. Things go real weird with the mind at that point. People freeze up or go psycho. Their ability to make rational decisions and think out their subsequent reactions plummets dramatically. Which means everything you just taught them goes right out of the window when a predator jumps in their face. Let's not even talk about when a crisis drives you to 150bpm or higher.
You can't teach people how to adapt to this inside of a day, and without being able to adapt to that 125 bpm level 1 panic mode, anything you teach them is fairly useless.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!