Zynga Accused of Cloning Hit Indie iPhone Game Tiny Tower

marketing.. by ardiri · 2012-01-25 22:37 · Score: 5, Insightful

Nimblebit just got a tonne of marketing over this - who cares about the ripoff? marketing 101 => success!

Re:marketing.. by jones_supa · 2012-01-25 23:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

It's so often how these days the winner is the one who has the biggest muscle to shove the product down the people's throats.
Re:marketing.. by Svippy · 2012-01-25 23:33 · Score: 2

Nimblebit just got a tonne of marketing over this - who cares about the ripoff? marketing 101 => success!
Yes, but Zynga just gave it to them. People listen because it is a good story (David vs Goliath). Since the games are practically the same, users have a choice. And most are likely to go with the one by the people who (understandably) feel cheated. In essence, Zynga brought this upon themselves. All they could have hoped for would have been Nimblebit A) saying nothing or B) being complete dicks about it.
I am not saying Zynga is going to be losing any sleep over this, but they did hand over free marketing to Nimblebit. You may then wonder whether Zynga and Nimblebit are secretly working together to steer up more noise about the already popular game.

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Re:marketing.. by hairyfeet · 2012-01-26 00:59 · Score: 4, Interesting

Yeah but it is kinda sad a guy can bust his ass making something unique only to have some scumbum company like Zynga bold face copy the thing. it looks like they only gave it a little graphical polish and called it a day, pretty obvious ripoff IMHO. hopefully the guy can get a good lawyer that will rip Zynga a new one.

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Re:marketing.. by Moryath · 2012-01-26 02:25 · Score: 2

After all it's not like Zynga hasn't been caught ripping off games before.
Oh wait.
Mafia Wars vs Mob Wars?
Cafe World vs Restaurant City?
Farmville and Farm Town?
Oh and don't forget there's an "expansion for Frontierville" coming soon that's blatantly ripping off Oregon Trail, but they changed the name to "Pioneer Trail"...
Re:marketing.. by leonardluen · 2012-01-26 02:27 · Score: 4, Informative

I am not saying Zynga is going to be losing any sleep over this
oh i very well doubt Zynga will lose any sleep over this...
ex staffer says "zynga's motto is 'do evil'". also "the source said that staffers were, and are still, instructed to blatantly steal the idea of competitors. He recalls a time when founder Mark Pincus spoke on the subject, allegedly saying “I don’t f**king want innovation. You’re not smarter than your competitor. Just copy what they do and do it until you get their numbers.” "
Re:marketing.. by BasilBrush · 2012-01-26 03:36 · Score: 2

Thing is, Tiny Tower looks like it was inspired by Zynga games in the first place. The look of it, the gameplay, the business model. It looks like Farmville goes high-rise.
So the copying here isn't just one way. And It wasn't initiated by Zynga.
Not that I want to defend Zynga. From previous stories they come across as scumbags. But an indie copying from Zynga isn't exactly on the moral high ground either.
Re:marketing.. by ganjadude · 2012-01-26 04:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

pretty much. I was working for the game dopewars, which was bought out by zynga and reskinned as mafia wars and other clones, pushed to the side, i never even got paid for any of my work (granted i was admin/maintenance not programming but it was for a good 2 years)

long story short, zynga is a parasite, its a bad company that does shady business practices and we can only hope it will be gone in the not so distant future

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Game rules do not underlie copyright by Kirth · 2012-01-25 22:39 · Score: 5, Informative

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

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Re:Game rules do not underlie copyright by Lumpio- · 2012-01-25 22:46 · Score: 5, Insightful

Perhaps not, but then again nobody is suing them either. This is more about moral rules than the law.
Re:Game rules do not underlie copyright by DrXym · 2012-01-25 23:33 · Score: 4, Informative

Perhaps not, but then again nobody is suing them either. This is more about moral rules than the law.
Zynga has no morals.
Re:Game rules do not underlie copyright by sohmc · 2012-01-26 00:49 · Score: 2

I highly doubt it. A large majority, if not all, games that Zynga has are copies/clones/remixes of existing games. Zynga just has a better marketing department and a bigger advertising budget.

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Re:Game rules do not underlie copyright by kiwimate · 2012-01-26 02:40 · Score: 2

This is more about moral rules than the law.
Whose morals? My morals happen to include "it's wrong to infringe copyright by illegally downloading music/software". I'm clearly outnumbered here on Slashdot by people who, even if they agree it's technically wrong, nevertheless believe it's morally justified because of the evilness of the MPAA/RIAA.
I don't bring this up to get into an argument about copyright and piracy, but to point out that adhering to "moral rules" first requires you define whose moral rules you are using as your measure.

So what? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-25 22:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

Making similar games is perfectly fine. If the basic idea is good, why not have multiple games implement it? Nobody is claiming that every single shooter is a Doom ripoff or that every single strategy game is a Dune ripoff.
Ideas have to be free so they can be used by everyone for everyones benefit.

Re:So what? by MDillenbeck · 2012-01-25 23:52 · Score: 5, Interesting

This may be a good time to use the low-tech equivalent to check the validity of the arguments. I don't know anything about the two apps in question, but ask yourself this: at what point would a variant of the board game Monopoly be different enough to ensure Parker Brothers couldn't sue you? Would be keeping the same rules, same basic board layout, and same "props" (player tokens, money, property cards, dice, and two decks of event cards) while changing the color, name, and art style of those keep you from being sues? For example, could I make the tokens space ships, the properties different star systems, the money "space credits" that use plastic coins instead of paper bills, and use public domain images of the star systems and call is "Stellar Baron" and not get sued?
Now back to the user interface. If this was the user interface of an operating system, would the original OS UI maker have a court case? What if it was a general application interface? What about making a knock-off of Farmville in the same manner... or replicating its mechanics with a new graphical interface and naming convention - would the developer of the game get sued, and would it be successful?
Finally, if there is a lawyer in the house, what court cases have set precedent in these areas? Honestly, I do not know the answer to these as law is not my field of study. However, I do know I need to know the history of how courts have ruled before I can say whether this is a legal violation or not. (My personal bias: I believe large companies have successfully sued, while small independent game developers of boardgames often have not - but this is based only on a one week investigation into the board game developer career.)
Re:So what? by ehlo · 2012-01-26 01:14 · Score: 2

I couldn't find a case concerning Monopoly in general but here is one by Hasbro on copyright infringement for Play-Doh that is good law (precedent), on which the facts seem similar enough to apply.
Status: Positive or Neutral Judicial Treatment Positive or Neutral Judicial Treatment
*474 Hasbro Inc, Hasbro SA and Hasbro UK Ltd v 123 Nahrmittel GmbH and Marketing & Promotional Services Ltd
High Court of Justice, Chancery Division (England and Wales)
11 February 2011
[2011] EWHC 199 (Ch)
[2011] E.T.M.R. 25
Floyd J. :
February 11, 2011
Confusion; Declarations of invalidity; Descriptive names; Honest practices; Infringement; Passing off; Revocation; Trade marks
H1 Community and national trade marks—PLAY-DOH (Classes 16, 25, 28—toys and modelling compositions)—Use by competitor of strap line “The edible play dough”—Action for trade mark infringement and passing off—Counterclaim for declaration of invalidity and revocation—Mark held validly registered—Counterclaims rejected—Infringement found—Whether defence of honest commercial use—Defence dismissed.
H2 The claimant companies, which made and sold among other products a children’s pre-mixed modelling composition, marketed that product under the trade mark PLAY-DOH for which the first claimant was the registered proprietor of one Community trade mark in Classes 16, 25 and 28 and two United Kingdom trade marks, dating back to 1970 and 1986 respectively, for goods in Class 16. The first defendant manufactured abroad, and sold in the United Kingdom, a powdered dough mix under the name YUMMY DOUGH. The YUMMY DOUGH product was promoted in the United Kingdom as “The edible play dough”, these words being printed in a single strap line across the bottom of the packet (illustrated in the judgment). In addition to the strap line, the words “PLAY DOUGH MIX” appeared in the top left-hand corner of the YUMMY DOUGH packet and the words “COLOURED EDIBLE PLAY DOUGH MIX” appeared in a smaller type size than that of the strap line on the side of the packet.
H3 Alleging that the defendants’ importation and sale of its YUMMY DOUGH in packaging that alluded to their own PLAY-DOH trade mark constituted an infringement of the rights in their mark, the claimants commenced infringement proceedings against the defendant. Following an application for interim injunctive relief a consent order was made in which each of the defendants gave temporary undertakings “not to undertake any material re-brand prior to judgment or further order in this action ”. The undertakings were very wide and, if they were to be made permanent at trial, their effect would be to freeze the defendants’ marketing of YUMMY DOUGH within very tight constraints in perpetuity. *475
H4 At trial, the claimants’ case rested on two separate bases: (i) infringement of each of their registered trade marks; (ii) passing off, this claim being based on the goodwill which the claimants maintained that they had acquired through use of the PLAY-DOH mark in the United Kingdom. The defendants counterclaimed for: (i) a declaration that the claimants’ registered trade marks had been invalidly registered because they lacked distinctiveness or were descriptive, and (ii) revocation of the claimants’ registered trade marks on the basis that the words “play dough” had become a common term in the trade for the products in question or on account of the claimants’ inactivity. The defendants also raised a defence to the action for trade mark infringement that their use of the signs complained of was an indication of the kind of goods they sold and that such use was in accordance with honest practices in industrial commercial matters under art.6 of the Trade Mark Directive .
H5 Held , by the High Court, that the claimants’ trade marks were valid and that they had been infringed.
Re:So what? by Enderandrew · 2012-01-26 03:15 · Score: 2

Doom is a Wolfenstein 3D rip-off.

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Too bad Nimblebit is hypocritical by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-25 22:40 · Score: 4, Informative

http://i.imgur.com/ajaYt.jpg

Re:Too bad Nimblebit is hypocritical by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-25 22:59 · Score: 2, Informative

drumscowski admits within that he hasn't even played tiny tower - if he had he'd realise it's not a vague 'influence' that nimblebit is pissed off about - such as he took from similar games - it's essentially a direct clone with a new skin on top of it.
Re:Too bad Nimblebit is hypocritical by grumbel · 2012-01-25 23:19 · Score: 4, Informative

Don't make a judgment until you have actually played all the games. I haven't, but at least from what one can read on the Internet from people who have: SimTown plays quite different, TinyTower and Zyngas game almost identical and it's not like this is the first time Zynga has done something like this, see FarmTown vs FarmVille.

Sim Tower by Voxol · 2012-01-25 22:46 · Score: 5, Informative

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SimTower

Or as they say, 'everything is a remix'.

Re:Sim Tower by duk242 · 2012-01-25 23:31 · Score: 5, Informative

I found TinyTower whilst looking for something similar to SimTower for my iPhone. It's quite obvious that TinyTower is inspired by SimTower, however it's not really all that much like what SimTower was. Zynga's version however is a direct copy of everything from TinyTower.
Re:Sim Tower by MachineShedFred · 2012-01-26 00:18 · Score: 4, Informative

I've played both SimTower and Tiny Tower. They can only be described as a "remix" if you go to a high enough level that all you can see is that both games have commercial tower construction involved.
In Tiny Tower, you manage all of the people in the building, as well as what each floor is doing - what the stores stock, who works where, who lives where, etc.
In SimTower, you just put in the "zoned" space, and people move in and pay you rent. You manage the building from a facilities perspective, screwing about with elevator timings and where the box stays in the shaft when no one's in it. You manage traffic flow within your building so you don't end up with pissed off people that just want to get out of your building at the end of the day.
They are quite different games. In fact, after finding Tiny Tower, it inspired me to fire up DOSBox with Windows 3.1 and play some SimTower.

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Re:Sim Tower by FooAtWFU · 2012-01-26 04:10 · Score: 2

Tiny Tower is in the class of games which I personally think of as "real-time impatience machines". There are a couple of iffy mechanics at work, but the most insidious is the dual-currency model. One currency (coins) you get by playing normally. The other (Towerbucks), which makes useful things happen faster, you only get occasionally or at random, but they can be bought with real money. So the point of the game is essentially to addict you and then make you impatient enough to spend real money.
I hate this game mechanic.

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Re:What? by SuricouRaven · 2012-01-25 22:51 · Score: 2

I remember simtower and the condo bug. If you pause a game, find an unsold condo, drop the price as low as you can, raise it back up again and unpause, it'll immediatly sell for full price. A way to cheat your way out of the dreaded Condo Price Crash.

Intellectual property laws in action by slasho81 · 2012-01-25 23:06 · Score: 5, Insightful

If you copy a big company, the big company will sue you out of existence.

If you copy a small company, the small company will complain so hard you better watch out!

GNU/Cloning by tepples · 2012-01-25 23:36 · Score: 5, Interesting

This is more about moral rules than the law.

So should Linus Torvalds and the GNU project "morally" not have cloned UNIX when making GNU/Linux?

Re:GNU/Cloning by Anonymous Coward · 2012-01-26 00:16 · Score: 3, Insightful

No, they should have, because they did morally copy it and then gave it away for all of us to share and benefit. This is not what Zynga is doing. Zynga does not care about the community and society, they only care about their own coffers.

Re:marketing?! by TaoPhoenix · 2012-01-25 23:44 · Score: 4, Insightful

Can we pair stories and see what happens?

X stories down we just had "Your photo infringes on his photo because it contained similar design elements". Now we have "Zynga accused of infringing on Nimblebit's version because it contains similar design bits"? Yet our reactions are *different*?

Why aren't that first photographer happy that the second one "handed over free marketing"?

I think we just stumbled on a new flaw in copyright besides the other famous ones: That there are *different classes* of works, but only one copyight law! So we have the same law handling Red Buses In Photos and Nimblebit Games and Twilight Movies. So the judges are handing down rulings that almost make sense for one class of works, and lead to frightening results in the other classes, with lawyers eating it all for dinner.

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Re:Happens all the time. by teg · 2012-01-25 23:56 · Score: 5, Informative

Let's see... when I was a kid in the days of Apple ][, these neighbors of ours (Stoltzfus family) came up with a graphical programming language.

They showed it to Apple, hoping that Apple would buy. Apple strongly considered it, and then returned it, saying that they weren't interested.

A year later, they came out with Apple Logo, which was immensely popular.

Logo was created in the 60s, turtles and all. It was popular on other systems as well in the early 80s, so it doesn't really seem to me that they did anything wrong here?

SimTower by rbpOne · 2012-01-26 00:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

Both games pretty much look like SimTower to me.

Not the first time for Zynga by tnerb123 · 2012-01-26 00:17 · Score: 4, Informative

They have been ripping off other games forever! Farmville was a rip off of FarmTown. Mafia wars was a rip off of MobWars! This company is only a copy cat company that can not create its own games!

In Related Old News: Zynga Sues Vostu for Cloning by famazza · 2012-01-26 00:27 · Score: 3, Interesting

I remember very well. In the remote year of 2011 Zynga was accusing Vostu of cloning some of their game.

Also in 2009 Zynga was sued for Copyright infringement, this time the settlement was filled by Psycho Monkey, due to the game Mafia Wars.

It seems that there is something very supicious happening with Zynga.

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Re:In Related Old News: Zynga Sues Vostu for Cloni by goose-incarnated · 2012-01-26 00:57 · Score: 2

It seems that there is something very supicious happening with Zynga.

Well? Spit it out then - your post gives very little indication of what it is you actually suspect.

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Thompson and Ritchie by tepples · 2012-01-26 01:03 · Score: 3, Interesting

Yeah but it is kinda sad a guy can bust his ass making something unique only to have some scumbum company like Zynga bold face copy the thing.

Likewise it's kinda sad that Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie can bust their asses making something unique only to have some scumbum company like FSF bold face copy the thing. Or are you trying to say cloning the functionality of a computer program is OK as long as the publisher of the clone is one of Slashdot's darling companies?

Re:Thompson and Ritchie by mypalmike · 2012-01-26 02:17 · Score: 4, Informative

I can't stand it any more! Three posts in a row! I must say something!
It's "bald faced", not "bold faced"!
OK, I feel a little better.

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Re:Thompson and Ritchie by tepples · 2012-01-26 03:23 · Score: 2

Linux was an x86 version of MINIX not unix
And what is MINIX other than a clone of UNIX?

they used some of the POSIX conventions

Why aren't the POSIX conventions copyrightable? Because they're a method of operation.

or MSFT shutting down Lindows
For one thing, that's trademark. For another, you appear to have got that one backward: Microsoft ended up settling out of court and paying Lindows Inc. for the right to the "Lindows" trademark because Microsoft risked a ruling that "windows" was too generic.

Re:Happens all the time. by dietdew7 · 2012-01-26 01:10 · Score: 5, Funny

It's a well documented fact that while Steve Jobs was at Parc stealing the GUI for the Mac, he also stole an office chair, a box of copy paper and a red Swingline stapler.

Re:Happens all the time. by voss · 2012-01-26 01:15 · Score: 4, Interesting

Actually Apple did steal a lot of their ideas for the Mac from the Xerox Parc

"No, Steve, I think its more like we both have a rich neighbor named Xerox, and you broke in to steal the TV set, and you found out I'd been there first, and you said. "Hey that's no fair! I wanted to steal the TV set! - Bill Gates' response after Steve Jobs accused Microsoft of borrowing the GUI (Graphical User Interface) from Apple for Windows 1.0* "

http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa043099.htm

Methods of operation by tepples · 2012-01-26 01:20 · Score: 2

Methods of operation are explicitly not copyrightable in my country (17 USC 102(b)). I'd assume that game play mechanics are methods of the game's operation. Nor are any graphical elements that necessarily follow from the method of operation, per the merger doctrine.

Copyright != trademark by tepples · 2012-01-26 01:30 · Score: 2

one by Hasbro on copyright infringement [...] "The YUMMY DOUGH product was promoted in the United Kingdom as 'The edible play dough'"

I don't see copyright infringement there, just trademark infringement, despite that the two have been conflated of late into "intellectual property".

Re:Happens all the time. by Pieroxy · 2012-01-26 01:36 · Score: 4, Informative

Well, except for the fact that they didn't steal anything, you're right. Xerox gave it away. Willfully.

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Re:Happens all the time. by gtall · 2012-01-26 01:55 · Score: 2

He also stole a box of raisins.

Re:Happens all the time. by msauve · 2012-01-26 02:06 · Score: 5, Insightful

"Actually Apple did steal a lot of their ideas for the Mac from the Xerox Parc"

If, by "steal," you mean "bought and paid for with pre-IPO stock shares," you're right.

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Re:Happens all the time. by realityimpaired · 2012-01-26 02:36 · Score: 2

Do you ask the CEO of Ford whether that Toyota car you are thinking about getting is any good?

Actually, I would. I would probably already know the answer, and the honesty in the answer from the guy from Ford might make me consider his products as an alternative.

Sadly, I have never gotten a straight answer like that from the actual salespeople who work for Ford... when I was buying a new car last February, I was treated like a piece of meat by the Ford folks. I had really one requirement in my car: full time all-wheel drive. A manual transmission was wanted, but wasn't a deal-breaker. I live in a northern part of the world, and not having it isn't an option in the winter. And rather than trying to sell me on the benefits of their system (not to mention why I should spend twice as much for their car that had it than I ended up spending on a Subaru), they proceeded to tell me everything that was wrong with Subaru's system. (completely ignoring the fact that the Ford system actually *is* the Subaru system, technology that they licensed when they part-owned Volvo). End result: the salesman lost a commission, and I ended up getting a car better suited to my needs for half the cost. I got my 4-wheel drive, my manual transmission (which I couldn't get in the Ford), and as an added bonus it's a more efficient engine, and it has a traction control off button that actually turns the traction control off. I call it the "let me have fun" button. /rant off

Re:Happens all the time. by CheerfulMacFanboy · 2012-01-26 02:36 · Score: 2

It's a well documented fact that while Steve Jobs was at Parc stealing the GUI for the Mac, he also stole an office chair, a box of copy paper and a red Swingline stapler.

Not to mentioned that he copied a XEROX. Or XEROXed a copier.

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Re:Happens all the time. by msauve · 2012-01-26 04:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

You've never seen/used a Xerox Star/Alto, have you, Troll? I have. They were much more like Windows 1.0 than Lisa/Mac.

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Re:Happens all the time. by ArmchairGeneral · 2012-01-26 05:04 · Score: 3, Informative

So the lawsuit that Xerox brought against Apple says it wasn't stolen? http://www.nytimes.com/1990/03/24/business/most-of-xerox-s-suit-against-apple-barred.html I think those who believe it wasn't stolen are morons.

Re:Happens all the time. by Tharsman · 2012-01-26 06:09 · Score: 2

Bull! We all knwo he paid hard stock for that chair, the box of copy paper was taken out of the garbage, the red stapler never existed and the GUI was traded for a used pack of chewing gum!

Re:Happens all the time. by s73v3r · 2012-01-26 07:25 · Score: 2

Buyer's remorse.

Re:Happens all the time. by Frosty+Piss · 2012-01-26 07:46 · Score: 2

If, by "steal," you mean "bought and paid for... "

Well, that's how Microsoft "steals" their ideas, according to the Slashdot Group-Think... Microsoft stole this, Microsoft stole that... Actually they *buy* a lot of their ideas, but that doesn't stop the accusations of theft here...

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Re:Happens all the time. by LoverOfJoy · 2012-01-26 08:43 · Score: 2

And a handicapped parking space!

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Zynga Accused of Cloning Hit Indie iPhone Game Tiny Tower

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