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Mechanic's Mistake Trashes $244 Million Aircraft

Hugh Pickens writes "An accident report is finally out for the Air Force E-8C Joint Surveillance Targeting and Attack Radar System that had started refueling with a KC-135 on on March 13, 2009 when the crew heard a 'loud bang throughout the midsection of the aircraft.' Vapor and fuel started pouring out of the JSTARS from 'at least two holes in the left wing just inboard of the number two engine.' The pilot immediately brought the jet back to its base in Qatar where mechanics found the number two main fuel tank had been ruptured, 'causing extensive damage to the wing of the aircraft.' How extensive? 25 million dollars worth of extensive. What caused this potentially fatal and incredibly expensive accident to one of the United States' biggest spy planes? According to the USAF accident report, a contractor accidentally left a plug in one of the fuel tank's relief vents (PDF) during routine maintenance. 'The PDM subcontractor employed ineffective tool control measures,' reads the report. Tool control measures? 'You know, the absolutely basic practice of accounting for the exact location of every tool that is used to work on an airplane once that work is finished.' Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz just told Congress, 'there is a JSTARS platform that was damaged beyond economical repair that we will not repair.' So, if this is the one Schwartz is talking about, then one mechanic's mistake has damaged a $244 million aircraft beyond repair."

88 of 428 comments (clear)

  1. Shit Happens by rotorbudd · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've been an A&P for over 35 years and I've seen worse.
    (by pilots and mechanics)

    --
    A bullet may have your name on it, but artillery is addressed to " Whom It May concern"
    1. Re:Shit Happens by stoolpigeon · · Score: 2

      oh - reading the executive summary (3rd link) it says damage was 25 million.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    2. Re:Shit Happens by WillRobinson · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The electronics package is 200 mill put it in another plane. So saying its a total loss is bs. The plane is basicly a kc-135 they have plenty of spares including whole wings.

    3. Re:Shit Happens by Svartalf · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not quite as simple as that. You've got to rip the gear out of the dead plane as salvage and then install it in a new one. Part of the $200 mil is not the gear itself but it's installation, calibration, etc.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    4. Re:Shit Happens by Suki+I · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've been an A&P for over 35 years and I've seen worse.
      (by pilots and mechanics)

      In Chuck Yeager's biography he talked about an assembly mechanic who was installing a bolt the wrong way, even though his instructions said the right way to do it. Resulted in numerous fighter plane crashes and almost killed Yeager when he was test flying one of the planes to see what was causing the crashes.

    5. Re:Shit Happens by Garybaldy · · Score: 5, Informative

      I remember reading that as i have repeated the story many times. The women on the assembly line could not grasp why you would stick a bolt in upside down. Always being taught to put it in facing down. So if the nut ever came loose the bolt would not come out. Even though as you said the instructions said to put it in upside down.

      The reason being the head of the bolt was shorter and would not interfere with a control cable.

    6. Re:Shit Happens by postbigbang · · Score: 2

      But there are a lot of cheap, pre-owned and calibrated spares out there now. I'm going to start checking my local surplus store frequently now.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    7. Re:Shit Happens by vlm · · Score: 5, Informative

      She knows clearance issues are why you install a shorter bolt Again, engineering design failed, miserably, so a way to blame the peon.

      If you insist on putting the brake pedal on the right foot and accelerator on the left, it doesn't matter how loudly you blame the driver, its still a design failure.

      This specific incident was hashed out in one of those freshman "intro to engineering ethics" classes I had to take a long time ago. Still remember it. It was a huge design failure, although you could claim it was also a huge management and PR success to put all the blame on some poor chick. Was used as an object lesson for how management picks the winner and loser, sometimes engineering gets it, sometimes operations/factory floor gets it, and part of being an engineer is "toughening up" that you're going to be involved in corporate BS like that, so get used to thinking about it.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    8. Re:Shit Happens by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      I'd say she shares some blame, by making a design decision at assembly time rather than bring the matter to the attention of her supervisor.

      But yeah, bad design. If bolt orientation is so critical, you need to make the design idiot (or self-declared assembly expert) proof. I suspect "shorter bolt" wouldn't have worked - and in any event, having one bolt shorter than the others might be asking for trouble as well. But even something as simple as stamping or stenciling "bolt head down!" might have averted the situation.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    9. Re:Shit Happens by vlm · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Or if you're going to intentionally violate international standards of assembly, management needs to hire a QA/QC guy who's sole job is to make sure things are put together the wrong way. Unless of course he failed in this case, but he was someone important's son, so he can't be blamed...

      There's always a way to design something the "right" way. If clearances are that tight, g-loading of the frame would have screwed it up eventually, or a tiny piece of shrapnel could take down a plane... A "combat" style repair during an emergency on a distant island could cause the loss of a plane, this isn't just a manufacturing problem.

      This incident was an hour long seminar in class and at the end of class, there's no way around it, it was an engineering failure but some lowly peon took the hit, with a sub-text esoteric or whatever meaning that even when engineering "wins" in a corporate BS scenario, everyone else really "loses".

      We came up with all manner of solutions like "shorter bolts everywhere not just one shorter bolt", "rivets not bolts", "reroute the cable". One unpopular one was "well, in wartime, you're gonna take losses, just deal with it".

      The funniest, yet best human factors solution, which won the award for the best solution, was to work with human nature, not against it, and make the build fixture upside down. So the plant workers install the bolts right side up, from their perspective. Don't even tell the bolt installer plant workers that they're working upside down. I wish I could say that was my bright idea, but mine was a crappy solution involving spray painting bolt heads and spray painting the holes on the bolt side using a fixture, which got shot down, something about F-ing up corrosion control chromate primer or whatever.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    10. Re:Shit Happens by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 4, Funny

      If you insist on putting the brake pedal on the right foot and accelerator on the left, it doesn't matter how loudly you blame the driver, its still a design failure.

      They should take the Apple route and put both functions in one pedal. Simply Genius! (tm)

    11. Re:Shit Happens by mcgrew · · Score: 2

      Indeed, when I was in the USAF I spent the 1st 3 years on the flightline, and there was a lot of accidental damage. One poor fellow backed a C5-A into a hangar and did $50 million in damage. He was sweating bullets for a week until the wing walker got the blame. They grounded the fleet when one of the giant buckets they serviced the tails fell over in another base and killed two mechanics. I saw quite a few land without landing gear on a foam runway, and at least one had an engine fall off. I also saw a C-141 with a missing windshield and a lot of blood, a large bird went through the windshield, killing the co-pilot.

      Nobody's perfect, everybody screws up occasionally. Like you say, these things happen.

    12. Re:Shit Happens by rickb928 · · Score: 2

      As with so many repairs, it's not the parts cost, it's the labor.

      And like your Geo Metro, do you really trust that head gasket repair? Really?

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    13. Re:Shit Happens by Runaway1956 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Just for a rule of thumb guideline - in the Navy, we never threw anything away without the Captain's permission. Something broke, the responsible parties looked at it, calculated what it would cost to repair, then reported to the Old Man. If the repair cost was greater than 60% of a new replacement, then it was deep-sixed. Otherwise, we repaired.

      And, labor didn't factor into the calculations. With 350 men aboard who weren't going anywhere without the Captain's permission, the cost of labor didn't merit any consideration.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    14. Re:Shit Happens by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      I don't think it was a communications failure on the engineer's part. She read the drawing fine, but made her own design change right then and there. If there was a communications failure, it was in her not asking her supervisor about the drawing that troubled her so much that she needed to ignore it.

      The engineer should have made it difficult or impossible to assemble wrong if the clearances were such an important aspect of the design.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    15. Re:Shit Happens by stevew · · Score: 2

      Me thinks your professor was an idiot.

      The engineering design failed in the opinion of the professor. Yet, there was documentation saying HOW to install something that wasn't followed?

      Further - somewhere someone had figured out there was a problem in this area and had written corrective procedures to avoid the problem. That of and by itself can be considered an appropriate engineering response to a problem! Don't forget - engineering is the application of science to real world problems while optimizing the cost of the solution.

      There are plenty of engineering disasters to look where design WAS the reason for failure. The classic is the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. Yet even THIS should REALLY be ascribed to a poor understanding of aerodynamics as applied to the bridge structure that was prevalent at the time.

      Lastly - aircraft design is really one of the places within the practice of engineering where past errors are studied extensively with lessons learned applied to new efforts. Perhaps better than any OTHER engineering pursuit. The current safety rate of commercial aircraft proves this point.

      --
      Have you compiled your kernel today??
    16. Re:Shit Happens by squidflakes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Aircraft aren't cars. The moment you start treating them the same is the moment you sign your own death warrant.

      Reading carefully in the article, the Air Force states that it is beyond economical repair, which usually means that the hours on the airframe are probably beyond some limit for stress or flight hours and to make such a huge repairs near the spar, which is the huge chunk of metal that keeps the wings on, would most likely require a huge program of testing, inspection, and re-certification.

      Since the Air Force has dozens of spares of this particular airframe, it is more economical to pull a newer one out of storage and move all the stuff that makes a JSTAR a JSTAR to a new plane.

    17. Re:Shit Happens by Dishevel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It was not designed that way,
      It was designed to bleed off excess pressure. The plane tried to do just that. Only some fuckwad left it plugged.
      Let me come over to your house and install nails in your fuse fuse box and then tell you how badly designed your electrical system was that a simple short in an electronic device burned down your house.
      It seems to me that since you put no thought into this that "blaming the bigger guy" is your thing.
      Good luck with that.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    18. Re:Shit Happens by squidflakes · · Score: 2

      If your twenty thousand dollar car gets two thousand worth of repairs, then conks out on the freeway in the middle of rush hour the next day, chances are that you'll pull over to the side of the road or at worst, piss off a bunch of people till the tow truck arrives.

      If your $244 million dollar aircraft conks out the next day while you're at altitude, chances are, everyone aboard is going to die. If you're luck, you're over an unpopulated area and there aren't additional casualties.

      Aircraft are not cars. The amount of maintenance is several orders of magnitude greater and if something goes wrong the likelihood of it going REALLY WRONG! (tm) is much higher.

      That being said, it is probably an airframe time issue. If the wing spar was damaged I wouldn't be surprised if there was an Air Force maintenance regulation that disallowed the aircraft being returned to service. Something critical on an old aircraft gets damaged and you're looking at much higher chance of failure.

    19. Re:Shit Happens by squidflakes · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The wing walker is a ground crew member for an aircraft that monitors the position of the aircraft's wings as you are towing it in or out of a hangar or around other aircraft. Their job is to walk just beside where the end of the wing would be and alert the tow tractor driver if the plane is about to hit something. Of course, the wings aren't the only part of the plane that can hit stuff, so wing walkers are supposed to keep an eye on the whole thing.

      A C-5-A is almost 250 feet long with a wing span around 220 feet. That's a lot of aircraft to watch.

    20. Re:Shit Happens by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      It was designed to bleed off excess pressure. The plane tried to do just that. Only some fuckwad left it plugged.

      Understood and agreed.

      But in light of the existence of fuckwads in the maintenance pipeline, it seems like designing the fuel tank to explode in the least-destructive way might be prudent.

      That said, the plane didn't crash, so perhaps this is exactly what happened.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    21. Re:Shit Happens by afidel · · Score: 2

      I can see why the overpressure could cause the damage, what I can't understand is why something which could cause a catastrophic problem didn't have a redundant mate (unless it did and he left multiple plugs in place).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    22. Re:Shit Happens by Cid+Highwind · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The airframe is a 40 year old ex-airline 707 with about ten zillion hours on it. A better analogy would be that it's like a $900 car with an $20k Oracle server in the trunk, and frame damage that would cost $2k to fix.

      --
      0 1 - just my two bits
    23. Re:Shit Happens by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No the professor was right.
      There is a benefit to putting in the bolts the way the worker was taught to do it. It is also the standard way.
      And the class came up with a number of solutions that would have been better than the upside down bolt.

      You should always make assembly errors as unlikely as possible. Having a design that will fail if a single bolt is installed in that standard way vs a special procedure is just asking for trouble. Doing when other solutions are available is a fail.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    24. Re:Shit Happens by sqldr · · Score: 5, Funny

      Aircraft aren't cars. The moment you start treating them the same is the moment you sign your own death warrant.

      Tell me about it. Sling-shot launching that Reliant Robin off an aircraft carrier damn nearly killed me!

      --
      I wrote my first program at the age of six, and I still can't work out how this website works.
    25. Re:Shit Happens by SockPuppetOfTheWeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Assembly line work is mind-numbingly boring: install one bolt, over and over, for an entire run of the line, entire shift, or possibly for entire weeks or even months until they come out with a new version of the product. Assembly line workers don't have a half-dozen different things to keep track of... they have one thing, and they damn well better do it correctly.

      Thinking is not one of their job duties. They are paid to do what they're told, not to think. If they put the bolt in the way they think it goes instead of they way they were told it goes, they are not a suitable assembly line worker - full stop.

    26. Re:Shit Happens by squidflakes · · Score: 2

      Oh, well there's your problem. The Robin isn't fit for carrier duty because that front wheel has to take all the stress. I would have done it in a Kitten, or at least a Supervan.

    27. Re:Shit Happens by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

      Except if it's an Oracle server, I'd dump it in the drainage ditch on the side of the road in an instant.

      "No, sir, I don't know how it got into the ditch. Must have jumped."

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    28. Re:Shit Happens by networkBoy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is true *but*:
      There is a hard rule in aircraft assembly that the bolt be placed head up nut down. This is to protect the plane if/when a nut falls off, gravity will still hold the bolt in place, hopefully long enough to land, or at least to eject.
      This is not an optional rule, and assembly workers have it drilled into them at their new hire instruction, and every annual refresher, and whenever someone sees a mistake in QA, and just because someone thought now would be a good time to bring it up again.
      It is "how it's done". <- full stop
      Now, in this particular case, a dumbass engineer decided to have the bolt installed in contravention of this hard rule. He chose this because in the other orientation there was an issue with control cables, and for whatever reason the following options were not viable: move the bolt hole, use a shorter bolt, re-route the control cable.
      The worker put the bolt in the way that she is "supposed to always" install bolts. Naturally this was not the right way for this bolt, and she is not blameless, but she is also not to be blamed for the entirety of the issue. She should have called her supervisor over and complained that the design conflicts with her training. Then put the bolt in upside down when her supervisor tells her to "just do it, will ya".
      I still refuse to hold her as the sole cause of the issue. I've had people where I work refuse to do something against the "always do it this way" kind of rules and a design calls out something against that. 9/10 times we kick back the design as invalid. 1/10 we end up doing it, but only after everyone on the team has been trained that this one widget goes in wrong, and why. It prevents the "I know better" issues with people.

      To sum up: Just because you don't pay them to think does not mean they will not think. Better to explain to them why things are done wrong in a particular case, then they will understand that it is not a stupid mistake that needs correcting, but rather a design tradeoff that had to be made.
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    29. Re:Shit Happens by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Its based on the 707 dude, those are as common as dirt. hell I bet for 50 million you can get fricking Boeing to yank the wing off a retired 707 and perfectly fit it to that one. No friend it sounds to me like they want an excuse to write this off so they can get a "free" new one. After all its YOUR money not theirs they are blowing. My grandfather was USAF and when it came time to "blow the bases budget" as he put it he'd come home with piles of new gear, new tools, new radios, you name it. Where did it all come from? Simple they were throwing it all away so they could blow the budget and anything cool that he liked grandfather got to help himself to. I've still got an excellent all band military radio I need to find some tubes for.

      So what is the replacement for this model? i bet its nicer right? They are probably thanking that dumbass for letting them get a new plane. Just more waste from your military, nothing to see, move along.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    30. Re:Shit Happens by SockPuppetOfTheWeek · · Score: 2

      I don't disagree, mostly. However, they had better check with the people who were paid to think before they go ahead and do something contrary to what they were instructed to do, just because they thought the instructions weren't right.

      Then, yes, you politely explain to them that they are supposed to do it that way and please just do.

      While there are any number of things that you could (in hindsight) have done to the design to ensure that this probably wouldn't happen, the best (and simplest) would have been just making sure that the assembly line workers assembled it as designed.

    31. Re:Shit Happens by mcgrew · · Score: 2

      When I was in the Air Force they cannibalized eqipment all the time. Planes, trucks, flightline generators and other equipment. You have two grounded planes because they're waiting for parts, they simply took the good part from one plane and installed it on the other. When the parts came the second one was again in service.

      The installation, calibration, etc. is already paid for; the mechanics all get paid whether they have planes to fix or not.

    32. Re:Shit Happens by Ellis+D.+Tripp · · Score: 2

      An atmospheric vent is not the same as a burst disc. The fuel tank is vented to the atmosphere to prevent rupturing the tank due to internal vacuum as the contents get pumped out to the engines during flight, or internal pressure changes as the plane changes altitude.

      Yes, under normal circumstances the tank would never be able to be pressurized above ambient because of the vents. But a burst disc as a backup safety device would have prevented such extensive damage to the tank and wing superstructure in the somewhat foreseeable event that the vents became obstructed for some reason, whether the reason is an idiot mechanic who left test plugs in, or something like icing over the external vent ports during flight. Much cheaper to replace a blown burst disc than to write off the whole airframe from the structural damage.

      --
      Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
    33. Re:Shit Happens by SockPuppetOfTheWeek · · Score: 2

      It is human nature to need to know why.

      It is human nature to ask why. Most people will promptly forget your explanation and simply do as they were originally instructed, satisfied merely in knowing there was a good reason for doing it that way.

  2. Government Contractors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Government contractors. Saving you money like they have never saved it before.

    1. Re:Government Contractors by SolusSD · · Score: 2

      Why would privatizing these jobs magically cause them to be done competently? I've seen plenty of incompetence in the private sector.

    2. Re:Government Contractors by Geraden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In the real world, faced with $244,000,000 in lawsuits, the contractor folds up and declares bankruptcy.

      Then everyone will have a laugh and the taxpayers will pick up the tab.

    3. Re:Government Contractors by locopuyo · · Score: 2

      The government would not pick up the tab, the company would go out of business. Unless of course it is a bank or union controlled megacorporation getting secret bailout money.

    4. Re:Government Contractors by s-whs · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In the real world, a contractor damages $244,000,000.00 of someone's shit, the contractor is paying $244,000,000.00 plus loss of use costs until replacement. In the government run world, everyone will have a laugh and the taxpayers will pick up the tab.

      In the real world, faced with $244,000,000 in lawsuits, the contractor folds up and declares bankruptcy. Then everyone will have a laugh and the taxpayers will pick up the tab.

      In the real world, whatever happens, everyone will pay for this. What do you think happens if that firm is properly insured? The insurance company pays and will increase rates for everyone, not just that firm that made the mistake (you can't do stats on a single mistake anyway, and the insurance firm needs to get that money from somewhere if they are to remain as profitable).

      So everyone pays more insurance, this means the companies who pay more insurance have more costs and increase their rates etc. This is not something insulated. Ditto for bankruptcies, not everyone pays as much everyone pays for it in the end.

    5. Re:Government Contractors by kaiser423 · · Score: 2

      No, the government picks up some of the pensions of the busted company. Basic Bain capital 101 -- If a company is going under, loot the pension fund, pay it to yourself and then declare bankruptcy. Then the taxpayer picks up the tab to keep those people from being homeless in the streets and committing crimes and rioting and killing executives in the form of pension guarantees, poverty assistance, etc.

  3. Re:Althourhg it was a private contractor by ByOhTek · · Score: 3, Funny

    you forgot "And suggest private industry could do better"

    --
    Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
  4. I feel better now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The most I ever cost my employer for a screw up is about $1.1 million.

  5. RFID by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Sounds like a great case for RFID inventory control ; tag every tool, log them out of the toolbox with a loop mounted on the side, log them back in again when you return them.

    The article linked mentions this on the second page ; I don't see why you should be limited to the 3M solution though (except maybe they'll bribe someone to make it a regulatory necessity). You can get nearly 2,000 tags for about $100, so it's not like it would be expensive.

    1. Re:RFID by phonewebcam · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "You can get nearly 2,000 tags for about $100"
      You or I could, but the essential middlemen selling the same stuff to the government would add at least three zeros to the end of that figure

    2. Re:RFID by ByOhTek · · Score: 2

      Seems overly complex. Why not just have the toolbox be able to detect what tools are contained within? Not even bother with the side loop. It could then have a nice little display of how many (and even what) tools are not inside.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    3. Re:RFID by webnut77 · · Score: 2

      so it's not like it would be expensive

      This is the government. It WILL be expensive.

    4. Re:RFID by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There are a lot of misconceptions about how contractors work, because typically, their profit margins are no higher than in other lines of business.

      The government is big on COTS hardware/software, and only turn to contractors for specialized circumstances. Those extra zeros come from the unusual design requirements and low volume orders.

      Take the x thousand dollar hammer example. On the surface, that seems absurd, since one can buy a hammer for less than 10$. But when the hammer is going into space and is made of a difficult to machine titanium alloy (tool steel shatters at cold temperatures), is egonomic even through spacesuit gloves, is lightened without reducing mechanical efficiency (makes sense at an estimated 1000$/pound/launch), and only 10 are made (despite flat machining costs), that X or XX thousand dollar price tag seems very affordable.

      The same thing happens in other areas. I work on submarines and some components use joysticks. Sure, commercial joysticks can be obtained for under 100$, but a waterproofed, pov only motion, high durability (sailors treat equipment like crap, and failure is not an option) piece of clockwork machinery that maybe 50 will be made, you are looking at just shy of XX thousand per.

      --
      while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    5. Re:RFID by vlm · · Score: 2

      Sounds like a great case for RFID inventory control ; tag every tool, log them out of the toolbox with a loop mounted on the side, log them back in again when you return them.

      Who fills out the ISO9000 report paperwork documenting the RFID hasn't fallen off the tool and remains in the bottom of the toolbox? You could generate an exception report of tools that were supposed to be used but haven't been used in "X" months, but then someone needs to review that and follow up and most importantly, document it and get a sign off from their boss.

      If the RFID falls off a $125000 radar spectrum analyzer, does that make it non-compliant and eligible to be sold to techs buddy for $50 govt surplus or ... just what level of corruption is allowable here WRT to compliance?

      You know the govt contracted to a contractor, but the contractor probably contracted to a subcontractor 1099'd A/P freelancer. Who tags his tools? Or should only subs who charge twice as much per hour because they "are in the system" be hired? Looking at total airforce annual labor costs, It could be cheaper to buy a new airframe once in a while rather than pay twice as much for labor.

      Those RFIDs... can't work on planes without them... so they're not a strategic national asset and require domestic second sourcing... bye bye to 2000 tags for $100.

      Those RFIDs... merely commercial/industrial temp range or aerospace grade? What works for walmart in Georgia isn't going to work in Alaska.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    6. Re:RFID by rickb928 · · Score: 3, Informative

      In the 70s, our tool kit was a canvas bag. We had to check it before we went to the flight line and both of us signed off that it was complete. Then before we LEFT the flight line, we counted again and signed off that it was complete. If the bird was scheduled to fly before we could get back to the tool crib, the crew chief also counted and signed off. Then we returned to the shop, checked the bag in and it was counted again before we could sign off on the work.

      If the tool crib did not get all the tools back, the bird would held until we found the tool or the bird was inspected inside and out. For 2 years I was there, we never lost a tool, and I never heard of anyone losing a tool from any other shop. In fact, my usual task was to lock a fixture, and I had the speed wrench on a wrist leash. Fortunately I never worked on a bird with engines running, which was a whole different protocol.

      It is not that hard to count. From the description of this process, I'm disappointed that the shop didn't have a tool board that would show an empty spot, nor any process to question a missing tool. In our shop back then, a missing tool for ANY reason would have been grounds for a complete inspection, evaluation, and questioning. I wasn't allowed to carry tools into the shop, even that teeny screwdriver we used for rotary switches. Absolute control within the shop system.

      Leaving something on equipment was just inexcusable. Shocking really.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    7. Re:RFID by smackmywhammy · · Score: 2

      Hell, the parts are CHEAP, even for the astronaut's titanium hammer. The certification paperwork and the personnel time to execute certification testing and report generation for materials origin, handling, intermediate/final assembly, and shipping is the big money. When I worked at rockyworld, we shipped our FAQT radio for about $2M and barely broke even, parts were about $75K of that number.

  6. I expected it was a problem with ball bearings by killmenow · · Score: 2

    It's all ball bearings these days.

    1. Re:I expected it was a problem with ball bearings by cide1 · · Score: 2

      and fetzer valves

      --
      -- the computer doesn't want any beer, no matter how much you think it does. NEVER, EVER feed your computer beer.
  7. Only 244 million? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    244 million? Isn't that minuscule? CEOs regularly crash the stock market. But at least they take responsibility! Like... becoming CEO somewhere else?

    1. Re:Only 244 million? by HuntingHades · · Score: 2

      A large amount of that cost is the electronics system on board (countermeasures, surveillance systems, radar, etc). The plane itself is a modified Boeing 707-300, with upgraded engines and other equipment, so the actual plane is probably somewhere in the $35-60 million range (although I'm guessing there, I can't find solid numbers) Based on that its probably more economical to salvage the equipment to be reused in a new unit, or as parts to repair other units as needed.

  8. I'm not really understanding... by argStyopa · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A few points occur to me:

    1_ ...how $25 million in repairs is "beyond economical repair" on a $240 million plane? If I have a $20,000 car that's in an accident, it's not uncommon to have $2000 in repairs...that's hardly "totalled".

    2. Now, looking at the pictures, that's pretty serious...but then it's more than $25 million in damage.

    3. the E8 is a converted 707...didn't they stop building those in the 1970s? If this is a 30 year old airframe (at best) then either that damage is $25 million or the plane is worth less than $240 million today.

    4. Finally, as I understand it this damage was done by a subcontractor. When I use subcontractors, they have liability insurance to cover the systems they're working on, plus potential liabilities. Doesn't the US government require AT LEAST such protections when farming out work to contractors?

    By the way, I'd like to further remind the Air Force that this is a COMBAT aircraft. Granted, it's not supposed to be in dogfights or shot at, but this is a piece of military equipment, maintained in difficult conditions/circumstances by relatively inexperienced crew (for example an aircraft carrier's crew largely is swapped out about every 18-36 months). That seems incompatible with its evident fragility.

    --
    -Styopa
    1. Re:I'm not really understanding... by confused+one · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You've hit the nail on the head with #1 - #3. They totalled a 707 airframe, which is not a $244 million dollar plane. Most of that $244 million cost is what makes a 707 a JSTARS -- the payload. And the payload will probably be salvaged and re-used either to build another JSTARS or as spares to support the existing JSTARS platforms. This is being way over-hyped. Big oops for the contractor -- I wouldn't renew the contract; but, I'm not government.

    2. Re:I'm not really understanding... by confused+one · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I tend to agree with you -- they'll likely use the parts for spares. The 707 is an old airframe. The US AirForce has hundreds of them -- they apparently bought a couple hundred used commercial 707s just for the spare parts. But, unless they need another JSTARS, they won't convert another one.

  9. I don't get it. by crimguy · · Score: 3, Funny

    $25 million? It's not as if they had to repair the toilets or anything . . .

  10. typically misleading by confused+one · · Score: 4, Informative

    You lost an airframe. A significant fraction of that $244 million is payload and equipment that will be recovered and used as "spare parts" to maintain other JSTARS aircraft. The airframe is all that was lost. The airframe is a commercial 707 derivative. It's not an $244 million aircraft, it's a tricked out $5 million dollar aircraft. The issue, now, is replacing the system -- which means assembling another JSTARS. Given typical government contracting practices that will cost another $325 million (inflation adjusted from initial cost of $244 million in 1998).

  11. Oh well by obarthelemy · · Score: 4, Funny

    If he were a banker he'd get a bonus ?

    --
    The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
  12. Even cheaper by ommerson · · Score: 2

    Simply weight the toolbox on the way out and again on the way back in.

    1. Re:Even cheaper by T-Bone-T · · Score: 2

      That doesn't tell you what tool(s) is/are missing, only that the set is incomplete.

    2. Re:Even cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Simply weight the toolbox on the way out and again on the way back in.

      Wouldn't work. Consumables. Safety wire, cotter pins, packing material. Even small, any of those is enough to cause a major problem. And far too small to be noticed when weighing a 75lb toolbox.
      The way it is normally done is by foam cutout for each tool. A quick look can tell you if something is not in place. Of course, you have to have the brainpower to actually look when you are leaving the area.

      (anon to not screw up previous mods)

    3. Re:Even cheaper by NatasRevol · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It would have prevented this disaster...

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
  13. Re:if in doubt.. by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 3, Informative

    blame "a contractor".

    Especially when the contractor WAS negligent.

  14. Re:Warplane can't handle a hole? by cptdondo · · Score: 4, Informative

    None of the AWACS/JSTARS/etc planes are "made to be shot at". They're civilian airframes stuffed to the gills with super-secret electronics. They rely on fighters and ECM to stay up; they don't do any fighting themselves. Heck, they're unarmed.

  15. Re:Althourhg it was a private contractor by ByOhTek · · Score: 3, Informative

    Of course they do. My problem is all the suggestions that Private industry does significantly better, ESPECIALLY when funded by the government. I think that's when we see the worst of the waste, private industry on the government's payroll.

    --
    Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
  16. Re:Utter nonsense by vlm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It is ass-covering of the lowest order to blame a lowly mechanic for what is obviously a design flaw. A simple sensor to monitor the presence of a plug

    Terrible design mistake because now someone needs to maintain, replace, test, and probably F-up that sensor. Also its heavy. The better design involves multiple permanently installed frangible disks on extra vent piping.

    See how hard design is? Finding incompetence is always easier than designing around it. First guess is usually wrong. That's probably what happened to the A+P mechanic, too.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  17. Re:Affirmative Action by Dog-Cow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Any alternative is better than Affirmative Action. Giving someone a job because they belong to a minority is equivalent to not giving someone a job because they aren't in the minority, which is racist/sexist.

  18. Re:Utter nonsense by vlm · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Remember that the airframe for this airplane (a KC-135) is basically a late 50s-early 60s design/build.

    Whatever. Back then engineers had to be smarter because they couldn't rely on computers. The days of iron men, not heavy iron mainframes... Age is no excuse for poor design, assuming thats what you meant.

    More likely, since this has not been a popular failure mode over the past half century, the cost of designing it out probably exceeds the cost of just eating an airframe every century or two.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  19. This is nothing. I have heard worse. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2, Funny

    If I remember Srimati teacher correctly, apparently a whole kingdom was lost because some cobbler missed nailing one nail in the shoe of one horse. I, along with rest of the class, had actually memorized the entire report of the investigation committee. We delivered the report to an assembly of interested parties ( Mohan master accompanied us on the xylaphone) on the annual day of the Mahatma Gandhi Elementary. From the standing ovation we got, I assume our report was spot on and was accepted with great appreciation.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  20. Forgotten Lesson of WWII by tekrat · · Score: 5, Interesting

    World War II, if you watch enough of the History Channel, boiled down to quantity winning over quality. Our Sherman Tanks, for example, were utter crap compared to the Panzer and Tiger tanks. But, the USA was able to build a lot of them and they were simple and cheap. The Panzer and Tiger, however, were built in small numbers because they were complex machines.

    Germany was 10 years ahead of the USA technologically. But, Germany wasn't able to build to the quantity needed to fight an industrial giant like the USA, especially while we were bombing their industrial capacity to zero (and losing 60% of our aircraft to do it).

    It is sad that USA is now following Germany's example. We are building overly complex, hugely expensive equipment that cannot be easily field serviced, and building them in limited numbers because we cannot afford them in great quantity.

    Eventually, even though we are 10 years ahead of every opponent technologically, someone will be able to over-run us in a drawn out war simply by having great numbers of simpler, cheaper equipment, and a lot of it.

    And I think we all know who's the industrial giant now, that can produce great quantities of material quickly and cheaply.....

    --
    If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
    1. Re:Forgotten Lesson of WWII by vlm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A often over looked factor is attrition in WWII. Made up numbers:

      Lets say the US had zero elite level tankers but millions of noobs and we didn't start the land war until, well, frankly pretty much d-day 1944. Solution, make millions of noob-tanks. We didn't have any elite combat veteran tankers anyway to make use of elite level tanks.

      Lets say the Germans had a hundred thousand elite combat vet tankers, but a quarter of them die in combat every year starting in 1939, so by 1945 you've got 12 year olds with hunting rifles "defending" Berlin at the last stand. Solution, make tens of thousands of elite-tanks and hope each elite-tank blows up more than 10 noob-tanks. Eventually you end up with dudes from the assembly line trying to be tankers, that didn't work out so well.

      They darn near won, despite the attrition, so I wouldn't harsh their strategy too much.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  21. Re:Althourhg it was a private contractor by griffinme · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Ben Rich (head of Lockhead in the 90's) said in his book that one time he was at the GE engine plant. One of the guys was pointed at two jet engines. He said they were the exact same engine. The only difference was one was for the Air Force and had 200 extra inspectors look at it and cost twice as much for that reason. Next time you want to blame the contractors for how much things cost take into consideration all the extra regs and paperwork they are required to do. Another fav of his is how they go crazy labeling things secret or top secret. That doubles the paperwork and makes all their work that much more difficult.

    He compared the overall cost of a new plane for the air force to the overall cost of the new model for the Mustang. The amounts were fairly close. Ford gets to spread the cost over thousands of cars. The manufacturer of a planes gets to spread the cost over a few hundred planes.

    --
    Is he strong? Listen bud, He's got radioactive blood.
  22. Tool outlines by teeloo · · Score: 2

    How about doing what every handyman does in his garage: hanging the tools on a board and tracing an outline of all of them.

    1. Re:Tool outlines by mbkennel · · Score: 2

      Aerospace has much better QA procedures than heart surgeons. Many surgeons don't even use basic checklists despite being proven successful at reducing errors, because they are the well-paid masters and don't what any peon correcting them.

      http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/14/us-surgical-checklists-idUSTRE70D33920110114

      When the malpractice insurers start enforcing this with detective-techniques and legal subpoenas it will change.

  23. Re:Utter nonsense by fedos · · Score: 2

    Exactly.

    Also, it's wrong to claim that if it is a design flaw then the mechanic isn't at fault. There is a standard procedure for maintenance and tool handling and the PDM contractor failed to follow it. If you read the accident report, you will see the disclaimer that it can't be used as evidence in a civil or criminal proceeding. The mopst likely consequence of this incident is that it will be written into the prime contractor's performace report and will thus affect future contract bids (contrary to popular belief, the government doesn't automatically award to the lowest bidder).

  24. Re:Look on the bright side by Thud457 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Actually, Atul Gawande has a whole book about how such simple things checklists vastly could help improve medical outcomes.
    And he reports the surgeons are mostly resistant to the idea.

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  25. If you read the actual congressional testimony... by tlambert · · Score: 3, Informative

    If you read the actual congressional testimony, you would have seen that Schwartz didn't say that it wasn't repairable for ~$25M, which is 10% of the cost of the whole system, he bemoaned his budget constraints, and said they wouldn't repair it as an example answer to the question "Is there any sacrifice you're seeing in ISR...?". Also note that they're only not repairing *the platform*.

    The title of the press release from the Public Affairs office more or less says it all: "Air Force Strategic Choices and Budget Priorities Brief at the Pentagon".

    -- Terry

  26. Re:Althourhg it was a private contractor by NatasRevol · · Score: 2

    Which reminds me (sadly) of Armageddon, the movie.

    When they're about to launch and Rockhound (Steve Buscemi) says "You know we're sitting on four million pounds of fuel, one nuclear weapon and a thing that has 270,000 moving parts built by the lowest bidder. Makes you feel good, doesn't it?"

    --
    There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
  27. Re:I'm surprised no-one else has pointed this out. by asylumx · · Score: 4, Informative

    The accident occurred March 13th 2009, but the news is the Air Force accident investigative board’s report on the incident, including photographs, which is only recently available.

  28. Re:Affirmative Action by line-bundle · · Score: 2

    Here is what bothers me: if you're black and you make a mistake it's because you're black.

    This is not fair both to the black person because he can make mistakes like any other (white) person, and to black people because they are suddenly set to impossibly high standards.

  29. Re:Althourhg it was a private contractor by squidflakes · · Score: 2

    Are you serious?

    The engines on a medium/large private jet can run you about a million each, and that's for a unit that GE mass-produces for civilian use. That you're saying a gas turbine is elegantly simple means that you've never ever ever worked on one. Ever.

    Ever.

    The concept might be simple, but when you're got a huge shaft studded with titanium blades spinning at 10,000 RPM and then you're intentionally using all of that compressed air to cause an explosion.. well, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that you're not going to bang one of these babies together over the weekend in your garage.

    As for the aircraft, wings can and do cost a significant amount of money. If the wing spar was damaged, then the aircraft is toast.

  30. Re:So wait... by StatureOfLiberty · · Score: 2

    "and this aircraft is obviously impractical for "combat" conditions where it may need to be field serviced under less-than-ideal conditions"
    "Another waste of taxpayer money"

    The E8C is a converted 'used' Boeing 707. The last of those were manufactured int 1979. So, this is an old airframe design (and we didn't pay a lot for them). So, it doesn't have some of the bells and whistles that newer aircraft have. Some systems have been up fitted and enhanced. But not all.

    This is not a 'front line' aircraft. Just like the KC-135 that I flew on, they operate mostly out of large bases that have plenty of service and support infrastructure. So, it is almost always being serviced in ideal conditions (or as ideal as they are going to get). A contracted mechanic didn't follow procedures. It is that simple.

    Also, there are times when older technology has an advantage. This aircraft's cousin (KC-135) stood ready to launch on alert 7 x 24 x 365 for decades and could be started at temperatures from well below freezing to well over 100 (F) and be in the air in less than 3 minutes. Try doing that with today's aircraft. I seem to remember newer aircraft needing air conditioning on the ground to keep the electronics cool while they sat on alert.

    This air frame's longevity and versatility says it all. When I got out of the Air Force in 1990, I had been flying on aircraft that were built as long ago as 1957. Many that I crewed on were older than I was. But, with good maintenance, they were great airplanes. I think we got our money's worth.

  31. Pet Peeve: it's not a "Spy Plane" by automandc · · Score: 2

    Forgive the rant, but:

    It is not a "spy" plane, it is a "surveillance" plane. Ever since the 2001 Hainan Island incident this mistake has really irked me. The Chinese used it as a rhetorical club to beat us with when GWB chickened out and let them chop up our plane and imprison our crew.

    A "spy" plane would be one that is designed/intended to escape detection and/or interception while conducting surveillance in places it has no right to be (such as the U2 and SR-71 or the Global Hawk). During the cold war, the Soviet Union consistently protested our overflights of their territory with the U2 and SR71, and sought (and once succeeded) to shoot them down, as was their right. Those were "spy" planes, and Francis Gary Powers was, technically, a "spy."

    The JSTARS E-8 and the Hainan EP-3E are both military versions of the Boeing 707 -- they aren't designed to hide from or evade anyone trying to see and/or catch them. They are big obvious platforms that fly in neutral territory (or over an actively declared battle zone when we have air dominance) and provide surveillance and other capability. They aren't hiding or trying to deceive anyone.

    --
    I'm a lawyer with excellent karma. Something's gotta be wrong.
  32. mechanic only the symptom by gerardrj · · Score: 2

    Why would a plane with so much advanced electronics on board not have a check system or pre-flight checklist item to look for such an installed plug. Supposed a swarm of bees had built a nest in there and blocked it instead of the mechanic's error?

    If something as simple as a plugged vent can cause complete and catastrophic damage to the craft then there needs to be pre/in flight monitoring of that system. Seems a simple pressure gauge in the tank would have prevented this situation from becoming life threatening.

    --
    Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
  33. Re:Sh*t Happens by FurtiveGlancer · · Score: 4, Informative

    Since the Air Force has dozens of spares of this particular airframe, it is more economical to pull a newer one out of storage and move all the stuff that makes a JSTAR a JSTAR to a new plane.

    JSTARS is not built on the C-135 airframe, exactly, but they share a common ancestor. JSTARS aircraft were built on a number of different commercially available used Boeing 707 variants. Essentially, each one was a custom installation. Air Mobility Command could not spare any viable KC-135 airframes for JSTARS, as they needed every refueler they could manage to maintain the fleet to meet unified command requirements. The other special purpose EC/RC/OC-135s were not available either, as their missions took precedence over the JSTARS effort.

    The JSTARS program likely will not receive adequate funds to purchase another airframe and integrate the equipment. It's more likely that the JSTARS equipment and viable airframe parts form this aircraft will be salvaged for spares to extend the lives of the remaining JSTARS aircraft. Other platforms are more likely to be funded to absorb portions of the JSTARS capability. This decision will be driven by high and growing supportability costs for JSTARS.

    --
    Invenio via vel creo
  34. But that's not the issue... by raehl · · Score: 2

    The issue is that REPLACEMENT cost is not the same thing as VALUE.

    Even if the thing cost $224 million new, or costs $224 million to replace, that doesn't mean that the one that broke is worth $224 million.

    The options are:

    - Buy a new one for $224 million
    - Repair this one for $25 million
    - Scrap this one and get along with one less.

    If you're in a situation where you now have 29 working models of them but you only use 15 at a time, paying $25 million to get back up to 30 of them doesn't make any sense.

    Especially if you're going to replace all 30 with the next generation of equipment in the near future.