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Did North Korea Conduct Secret Nuclear Tests?
gbrumfiel writes "In May of 2010, North Korea made the bizarre claim that it had achieved nuclear fusion. Many, many commentators (including faithful Slashdot readers) mocked the dear leader for his outlandish boast, but could there have been a kernel of truth in the claim? Apparently some odd radioactivity was spotted by detectors surrounding the North just days after the announcement. Now, a new analysis by a Swedish scientist suggests that the radiation may have leaked from covert experiments into boosting fission warheads. The evidence is tentative at best, and many are skeptical, but it does seem that something odd was up on the Korean peninsula that spring."
Not only did North Korea manage to produce a Nuclear Warhead- but the late Kim Jong himself put it together using only a paper clip, a mashed potato and a bucket of play-doh.
What it takes the West billions of $ and many top scientists, North Korea can accomplish with just a Kim and a few house-hold supplies. Incidentally, Kim Jong Il, invented the mashed potato. Just a little known factoid.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Given they already have a covert nuclear programme doing covert experiments isn't that much of a shock. But really, everything these guys do is odd to some degree, I mean, they have a leader who was born in any of 1982, 83 or 84 and no one seems quite clear as to which. Or why they would lie about it.
It's not even clear who these outlandish lies are for, which is what makes the whole thing odd. Even if it's just misdirection to confuse anyone trying to find out the truth that doesn't make it any less odd.
More like they had an accident and covered it up with "We make bomb for advancement of North Korean workers and great glory of Dear Leader"
IIRC there was a very large explosion of a train car which they were pretty hushed up about, apparently Dear Leader, who only trusted rail travel, was on his train and not too terribly far from the accident when it happened.
If this country didn't exist, with all its screwy behavior, Sci-Fi writers would have a tough time making it all up.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
It was fission, what they actually achieved, someone, somewhere, in their secret underground cavern labratories, mislabelled the experiment... They just couldnt admit the mistake and relabel it again.
my sig pwns your sig
That and nuking North Korea would really upset China, and they have real nuclear weapons. Not to mention they hold like half the West's debt...
the measured energy produced was not quite enough to reanimate Dear Leader. next they will try adding a D-cell battery to the mix. assuming they can find one that hasn't corroded out.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
That's Hans Brix.
Fusion is easy. You can make fusion with a tabletop setup. Overunity is the hard part. Explosive fusion is also hard. It wouldn't surprise me if the dear leader made some bigass Farnsworth Fusors and ran them knowing that people would be monitoring. It's a cheap way to fuel this kind of speculation.
Kim Jong Il: Hans Brix? Oh no! Oh, herro. Great to see you again, Hans!
Hans Blix: Mr. Il, I was supposed to be allowed to inspect your palace today, but your guards won't let me enter certain areas.
Kim Jong Il: Hans, Hans, Hans! We've been frew this a dozen times. I don't have any weapons of mass destwuction, OK Hans?
Hans Blix: Then let me look around, so I can ease the UN's collective mind. I'm sorry, but the UN must be firm with you. Let me in, or else.
Kim Jong Il: Or else what?
Hans Blix: Or else we will be very angry with you... and we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are.
Kim Jong Il: OK, Hans. I'll show you. Stand to your reft.
Hans Blix: [Moves to the left]
Kim Jong Il: A rittle more.
Hans Blix: [Moves to the left again]
Kim Jong Il: Good.
[Opens up trap, Hans falls in]
1) Nuke the North
2) Blame it on fusion experimentation
3) ???
4) PROFIT!
Though I expect you are joking, I do expect the US and ROK have been exploring these options for years -- considering if it would work and how China would react. The North Korean leaders are clearly the most despicable exploiters of the human race the world has seen in generations, but China likes to have them as a buffer. Possibly also fearing the economy and military of a unified Korea.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
26% of the debt.
Nuclear fusion is easy. Pretty much anyone can build a Farnsworth Fusor and there are all sorts of other ways to achieve fusion. Achieving net positive fusion isn't even that difficult for a country that already has fission-based atomic bombs. The problem is achieving net positive fusion that is stable, sustainable, and controlled.
The question asked by the story title: "did North Korea conduct secret nuclear tests?" has a simple answer. Yes. Of course they conducted secret nuclear tests. It's already public knowledge that they have a nuclear program. They also, like every nuclear power, keep the details hush hush. Therefore, secret nuclear tests.
Oh, come on we get a lot more energy out of Fusion then we put in. It's making it not explode that's the real trick.
Hah, the largest nuclear stockpile on the planet would like to see them try to collect.
FTFY.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
That would explain why North Korea is one of the most brightly lit countries in the world. They have so much electricity available for everyone to use because they have harnessed nuclear fusion. But then, why does it look like this?
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
I'm no physicist, but it occurs to me: Do stars even do energy-positive fusion? I mean, there's no one shooting energy into stars, obviously, but they are being acted on by gravity in a pretty significant way. Could it just be that gravity is providing the energy for fusion, with the heat/light total being less than that "input" by gravity?
That made sense 20 years ago, but China being afraid of a unified Korea, is like the US being afraid of a unified Dutch Antillies.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
"Secret Nuclear Tests" aka, they broadcast the event around the world but no one believed them.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
N. Korea Detonates 40 Years Of GDP
http://www.theonion.com/articles/n-korea-detonates-40-years-of-gdp,2068/
"PYONGYANG, NORTH KOREA—A press release issued by the state-run Korean Central News Agency Monday confirmed that the Oct. 9 underground nuclear test in North Korea's Yanggang province successfully exploded the communist nation's total gross domestic product for the past four decades..."
help me i've cloned myself and can't remember which one I am
Economically China doesn't want the competition that cheap North Korean labor combined with an already highly industrialized South Korea would bring.
Militarily if you combined the armies of North and South Korea it would be the *second* largest by active personnel behind China (clearly behind US & Russia in technology, but not by as much as you'd think as the US provides a lot of hardware). If you combine their trained (active and reserve) military personnel, it absolutely dwarfs any other military besides Russia.
That's plenty of reason for China not to want to see a unified democratic Korea...
Yeah, in the Castle Bravo test, they got a *lot* more energy out - the bomb was 2.5 times more powerful than it was *designed* to be - and at 6 megatons, it was no small bomb to begin with. If that's not "Net Power", I don't know what is.
Were they secret if they told us and we chose not to believe them?
Oh, yes, but we must definitely worry about the furrzzzle blartlebing schwizznuts.
You're missing the point. China isn't afraid that a unified Korea can impose its will upon China or threaten it militarily, it's afraid that a unified Korea means US troops on its border, rather than on the other side of North Korea.
Yeah, that cold war thinking never goes away. Dang I miss it.
China doesn't want a unified Korea for several reasons.
1. China wants a pit bull keeping the US and allies from getting too close to its border.
2. The fall of N. Korea would mean potentially millions of refugees flooding into China.
3. China is no longer in the position to play in role of Good-Cop Bad-Cop. Geopolitically, it makes them look bad to not have a neighbor that's far worse.
The fall of the N. Korea regime wouldn't be the end of the world. I doubt China would put up too much of a stink about it. But if given the option, China would rather have N. Korea to stick around a bit longer.
Life is not for the lazy.
1) Nuke the North
2) Blame it on fusion experimentation
3) ???
4) PROFIT!
Though I expect you are joking, I do expect the US and ROK have been exploring these options for years -- considering if it would work and how China would react. The North Korean leaders are clearly the most despicable exploiters of the human race the world has seen in generations, but China likes to have them as a buffer. Possibly also fearing the economy and military of a unified Korea.
Can't you trace radioactive residue somehow (ratios of isotopes, or something like that) after the fact? That might make that scheme difficult unless we can get some of their own nuclear material to build the bomb out of.
I know for a fact that Japan, Korea, Central and South America have their own superhero comics, plus there is at least one being put out in Arabic countries.
Wow, someone's got an axe to grind...
a person who drooled while he watched these actors play super humans as part of a unique American culture (The rest of the world does not have super-hero style comics)
It may be unique American culture, but the rest of the world consumes it ferociously - Terminator 3 (the last movie starring Ahnuld, just before he became governor) made twice as much outside the US as domestically.
As far as indigenous culture goes, the Chinese have their share of cartoonish super-hero antics and over-the-top violence. Watch Jet Li's version of "Fist of Legend" (where the bad guys are Japanese, of course) and tell me he doesn't have super powers in that film. (It's actually a very enjoyable movie.) Or some of the old John Woo films: "Hard Boiled" makes the typical American badass cop movie look like "Terms of Endearment."
I'm no physicist, but it occurs to me: Do stars even do energy-positive fusion? I mean, there's no one shooting energy into stars, obviously, but they are being acted on by gravity in a pretty significant way. Could it just be that gravity is providing the energy for fusion, with the heat/light total being less than that "input" by gravity?
Let me Bing that for you.
Now, don't do that again. If you can't figure out how to use the Internet, go back to Facebook where you belong.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Dr. De Geer is using evidence of a fission reaction to support the conclusion that a fusion reaction occurred? That makes no sense whatsoever. I don't think a near fizzle/low yield detonation can even induce fusion in the first place.
Evidence of a low yield uranium blast would make me think of testing a new weapons design and/or a composite core, not boosted fission.
There has been speculation that some stars may oscillate between radiating energy generated by fusion, and radiating energy generated by gravitational collapse. It may even be that many stars wobble on the cusp of fusion and collapse; a star expands slightly due to the heat and pressure of fusion to the point that fusion no longer occurs, followed by a slight gravitational collapse until the core is dense enough to support fusion again. (Read the Vernor Vinge book "A Deepness in the Sky" http://www.amazon.com/Deepness-Sky-Vernor-Vinge/dp/0812536355/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328304339&sr=1-1 for an extreme example.) The star's radiative output might vary only slightly between the phases.
After all, most theories of how the Sun works suggest that we ought to be able to detect SOME solar neutrinos; what if the Sun is in the "collapse" phase just now, and the reason we can't detect the neutrinos is because there aren't any?
There is no doubt that there are plans a nuclear exchange with North Korea, although they are more likely based on the original situation in the 50s and 60s where the NK army was both much larger and not quite as obsolete in comparison to the SK and US armies. The Joint Staff probably has plans on fighting a war with Canada, if only as an exercise. Of course plans are one thing, mobilization to make those plans even feasible is another.
I'd say that there is a set of plans for a nuclear strike on NK that probably make use of some tactical nukes based on carrier aircraft for busting a massed NK offensive, and if needed, probably some plans to hit Pyongyang with a strategic weapon from a ballistic missile sub if NK goes all nuts and starts trying to throw it's one or two usable nukes at other people. None of those plans would be very high probability as the SK government might prefer a long, hard fight or even possibly surrender to having even part of the peninsula irradiated and it is doubtful that the US would launch without the SK government approving it.
No it wouldn't. Considering what China now has in industrial production, they really aren't looking to "make any waves" for themselves. In fact the their support has been waning. http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/12/20/chinas-stake-in-a-stable-north-korea/
It seems the Chinese would like to back them, but stay under the rest of the worlds radar while doing so. Should North Korea launch a missile into Seoul like they promised this year over the "Christmas Tree Dispute". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16129633
Should they actually follow through with their threats how fast do you think China would be to say "you guys are on your own".
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
It would mean that production would do one of two things.
Either A) return to this country, or most likely B) move to the next cheapest country that could produce it.
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
Hah, the largest nuclear stockpile on the planet would like to see them try to collect.
FTFY.
If you are referring to the US, it is actually, the second largest nuclear stockpile.
After all, most theories of how the Sun works suggest that we ought to be able to detect SOME solar neutrinos; what if the Sun is in the "collapse" phase just now, and the reason we can't detect the neutrinos is because there aren't any?
The issue of "missing" neutrinos was solved a decade ago, but at no point were detecting zero neutrinos, merely about 66% less than expected.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_neutrino_problem
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
I don't know if those reasons are accurate. These are the issues I see for China with a unified Korea.
1. Think back on Germany's unification. A unified Korea will become even more of an economic powerhouse. With unification South Korea would now have a massive untapped resource in the north. For example, why outsource manufacturing as they've been doing when they now can make stuff domestically for cheap. Also imagine the massive amount of investment the north is going to enjoy. Koreans have little need for Chinese goods, relatively speaking. I'm not sure with the NK mindset will be, but South Koreans are very nationalist.
2) An economically prosperous country will now exist on China's border. Refugees are not the problem. If anything, Chinese will probably be flocking across the border for opportunities. Sure, China's economy is burgeoning, but that growth is not uniform and it certainly not the case in that corner of China.
3) A strong American ally now shares a border with China. This one is obvious.
Everything thing else is a non-issue. I'm pretty sure North Korea gives China constant headaches, but they'll never acknowledge that. I don't really see what strategic benefit they offer China beyond providing a buffer hundreds of miles wide. They definitely provide no economic value, although I'm sure what little gets into NK is Chinese made. That likely wont continue with a unified nation.
Actually, I never cared for most movies or shows by those actors... MacGyver was one of the best... you know, the guy that abhors guns and wouldn't shoot somebody to save his life.
While I realize it's nice and warm, you may want to get your head out of your ass once in a while.
invaded, replaced their government with a pupp...
A puppy government? Squeeee!
You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
That's like saying the Germans and the British in WW2 had a huge combined military.
The only reason why the Korean militaries are that large is because they are strategically sized against each other. If Korea was unified, you would probably see massive reductions in troop counts.
When the US was in a civil war, we had an enormous combined military... because there were two of them fighting each other.
China probably doesn't care all that much about whether Korea is unified. What China does care about is a stable government with whoever shares their border. If the NK government fell, there would be millions of refugees crossing into China almost immediately.
I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
That's like saying the Germans and the British in WW2 had a huge combined military.
Yeah, and after WWII they joined forces to dominate the European economy together - I'm sure Russia before the fall of the USSR had wished it had been able to keep West Germany under its thumb instead of joining NATO. China clearly relishes their position as North Korea's closest (and almost only) ally, and use that leverage constantly when negotiating in the UN on Asian politics.
But the point was comparing Korea to the Dutch Antilles is silly. Korea is a major military power, no matter how it became that way, and as you said yourself, a unification of Korea would cause a lot of worry and headache for China (probably a bit more than if Aruba unified with St. Martin).
China being afraid of a unified Korea, is like the US being afraid of a unified Dutch Antillies.
Well, we don't want them to unify the Caribbean tourism cartel. If they gain control, they'll lower prices, then no one is going to want to go to Hawaii. We might lose our domestic competitive edge on drinks with umbrellas in them.
So? we would be fine in about a year.
Some reaming good would go up. Some electronics wouldn't be easy to get for a while.
We would still have food, gas, cars, electricity, all the stuff we currently have.
Hell, it might be good for us.
Now imagine Chine getting it's oil and food imports cut. It would implode.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
need? no. Food, water, shelter, currently owned electronics, transportation, entertainment.
So, what need? do people needs an iPhone? xbox? new computer?
hmm, clothing would rise about 25%..maybe.
I
m seriously thinking of anything poor people NEED that would become unavailable for the short term?
OTOH, if that means all those toys get made here, then the poor people would get living wage JOBS; which they needs.
For the record, I have no problem paying 25% more for something knowing it's made in the US by a US company.
The increased wage base would increase tax revenue and now there is more tax money.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Not a lot of next cheapest countries that ALSO have the infrastructure and port access.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I suspect the US has ran that scenario, as is the job of the military. I doubt it's on the table and an actual response.
Bad PR, long term damage to neighboring countries. for what? nothing we can't do with convention air forces.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
ALrge armies doesn't mean good armies, and it doesn't mean 'win'.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
1) Japan
2) Why?
3) Why do you think people can only watch one country at a time?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
"Now, don't do that again. If you can't figure out how to use the Internet, go back to Facebook where you belong."
Says the guy who 'Bings' things.
Why don't you 'squirt' him a video?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Awesome, so you want to bring the standard of living down to somewhere around Central American levels, where people can only afford what they "need".
You should join the Mitt Romney campaign.
When you have 20,000,000 heavily armed troops (and enough missiles - conventional, nuclear, and/or chemical - to more or less obliterate each other's capitals) supplied with modern equipment by Russia, China, and the US separated by about 2 miles of DMZ, no one's going to win...
South Korea is the new Hong Kong, and it provides a place to deal with the west while North Korea provides a buffer zone to prevent cultural influence. The leadership in China and the western nations all like the situation.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
theres a meme if i ever heard one!
-
For a quick understanding of North Korea from a strategic perspective, here is an insightful series on North Korean strategy by an American physicist and business strategist/entrepreneur who visited: http://joshuaspodek.com/north-korea-strategy-preview. It clarifies a lot of why things are the way they are there.
Also this book, based on that series.
I don't think that's really China's view.
The Wikileaks cables have included suggestions that Bejing is willing to accept a unified Korea under the South's government
China is also seriously concerned about an influx of refugees should North Korea 'collapse'.
And that's really everybody's concern. North Korea can't be allowed to simply 'collapse'. (It really already has collapsed economiclly but somehow manages to soldier on politically and socially.) There is too much military hardware there. There are too many people there. It would be a mess for everyone in the region (China, Russia, South Korea, Japan).
But there are several realities in the way of unification:
1) The Northern elites don't want it. This is really the biggest problem because until you can get the North to agree to unification there will be no unification. It's essentially impossible to forcedly unify the country. The people of the North have been so indoctrinated to fear everyone from outside the country. And the North's army remains powerful enough to cause so much destruction - not just to the North but to the South as well - that invasion is simply a no-go. You must somehow convince the rulers of the North to give up control to the South.
2) Unification would ruin the South. Unification is expensive. And it takes a long time. You don't just declare a country unified and all is good. You have to build up the poorer partner and work on social unification as well.
The unification of Germany cost upwards of $1.9 TRILLION. And West Germany was a lot richer than South Korea is. And East Germany wasn't nearly as poor as North Korea is. And socially there is still a gap between former East and West Germans. It will take another few generations to create real social unification.
A similar lesson can be learned by looking at Yemen, which was separated between North and South between the end of WWI until 1990. Yet after declaring unification the social separation between the peoples of the two former nations remained and resulted in civil war and unrest which really still continues today. (Equally note that both North and South Yemen were extremely poor nations, which made unification difficult economiclly as well.)
Really, the best scenario would be for the Northern elites to liberalize - open their economy bit by bit and reveal the truth about the rest of the world to their people bit-by-bit. Spend less on the military and more on developing the country - education, infrastructure, and a Chinese-style economic modernization. Then, as the North slowly climbs out of poverty and absolute self-imposed social isolation then maybe in a few decades unification will look more and more realistic.
And really that's what everyone wants. Everyone outside of the Northern elites that is.
There had been some hope that after Kim Jong-il died that his successor would be more open to the rest of the world, but that seems not to be the case.
Yeah, you've got a point. The US should figure out some way to fire them from their submarines, drop them from their planes, and similar! I don't know why they haven't thought about this before?
This is my footer. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Forget China, South Korea doesn't want unification because they would end up paying the bill. The unification of East and West Germany did not go that well in the beginning and North Korea does not come close to East Germany.
OTOH, if North and South do reunite, Scott Evil (aka Kim jong Un) wouldn't be so ronery.
Hah, the largest nuclear stockpile on the planet would like to see them try to collect.
what's Russia got to do with this?
china doesn't use silos... they use bunkers to store and trucks to deploy (Russia does the same). mobile target makes them harder to track/disable.
there would be millions of refugees crossing into China almost immediately.
So? This is China we're talking about. People are saying that NK is the biggest exploiter of humanity out there, but these people must not be paying attention.
China would put these people to work making sweaters, and/or use them for cattle feed if they've already been exhausted as slave labor. Chances are, though, they're healthier than most of their citizens and with a little rice will last at least as long as a native Chinaman.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Let's just say they had a thermo-nuke test. That gives off some particular radiation. But I'm not seeing the connection between that and NK's supposed fusion reactor. One would think that the 2 would have some differences, such as a workable reactor giving off the radiation for more than a few milliseconds (or whatever).
Or is this just another badly written TFS?
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.