Hackers Hit Apple Supplier Foxconn

wiredmikey writes "Protests against Apple and Foxconn due to furor over reports about working conditions have gone digital. A group known as SwaggSec has successfully hacked computers at Foxconn, and posted the stolen data to The Pirate Bay website. News of the hack comes as protesters paid a visit today to Apple stores around the world to deliver petitions demanding the improvement of working conditions at factories run by Apple suppliers in China and other countries. In response to the attack, Foxconn reportedly took down a website that explains the services it offers to some of its partners, including Apple, Cisco and Acer."

Comments

Apple and Foxconn

[bonch]

I made this point in the last article: Foxconn is the world's largest electronic producer and is outsourced by Dell, HP, Microsoft, Google, Sony, Nintendo and more. Not only is it completely ineffective to hand a signed petitions to some Apple store manager in an attempt to influence the working conditions of an internationally traded public company in China, it also gives a pass to every other computer company who uses Foxconn. Remember that the last article said that Apple was the best about being proactive about labor conditions...so where are the protests against the companies that aren't? Where are the demonstrations against the Chinese government? It's not like Tim Cook can make a phone call and change the entire Chinese business model. There are all kinds of factors at play between the Taiwanese management of Foxconn and the Chinese labor it employs that foreign companies have no power to change.

On a related note, the NY Times published an interesting article on why the U.S. lost out on iPhone work. For most big electronics companies, it's simply not economically viable to manufacture here in the States.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I, for one don't buy anything which comes from Foxconn. No Dell, no HP, no Microsoft, no Nintendo, etc. Before buying something I check where and by who is made.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[CharlyFoxtrot]

"Though he [Labour activist Li Qiang] believes that Apple has done a better job of inspecting its factories than others, Li maintains that the public is right to put more pressure on Tim Cook’s company than its competitors who have the same problems. Because Apple makes the most profit, he reasons, it also bears the most responsibility for fixing a broken system."

You may do a better job than other, but you've got deeper pockets so prepare to be punished.

"“Foxconn is not good,” Li told the New York Times. ”But if we compare all industries, electronics, textile, toys, Foxconn is one of the best.”"

They're not even attacking the right supplier, just the one that's connected with the most high profile name so they can get their mug in the papers.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Except Apple are actually doing better than others and are getting punished for it :

"Labor Activist Li Qiang wants you to know that the iPhone 4 in his pocket is not an endorsement of Apple’s policies, just an acknowledgement that the company is doing a better job of monitoring factory conditions than its peers. The founder of leading advocacy group China Labor Watch (CLW) told us that, though the Cupertino company does more-thorough inspections than competitors, it is responsible for poor working conditions at its suppliers’ factories and needs to invest some of its record-breaking profits in improving them."

That's dangerous. Why do better if you're going to be taking heat for it anyway ?

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[girlintraining]

it's simply not economically viable to manufacture here in the States.

As long as we continue to allow imports of materials covered in the blood of the workers who produced it, then yes, it will remain "not economically viable". Should we suddenly have an outburst of compassion and decide to ban such imports, I imagine it will magically become economical again to manufacture here. Also.. you're only getting about a 10% discount when you buy products produced by sweatshop as opposed to regulated and safe working conditions.

And let's be clear: The product you're buying isn't essential to your livelihood. It is a status symbol and a material comfort. Is that 10% really worth it? There are some standards that we should not compromise on: We should not allow business with companies or countries that have to place nets on and around their buildings to catch people committing suicide because of it's poor working conditions.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[QuasiSteve]

Because people...
A. Are unaware that they're doing better than others.
B. Are aware but think Apple could still do even better and fall back to the previous arguments of why Apple makes an excellent 'target'.

Compare this to Nike. Nike still gets most of the flak even though they probably do much better than a random other brand of 'sports' shoes. Fair? Nope. Fallout from being the obvious choice thanks to your success? Yup.

As for why you would do better... good question. Why?

But somehow I doubt that Apple are just going to throw up their hands, say "there's no pleasing this crowd", and go back to circumstances as they were before they told the factories/suppliers to do a better job the first time around. So I guess they, at least, have the answer to 'why'.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[pankkake]

I don't think the hipsters are the ones criticizing Apple. And they won't until another brand gives them the ability to be smug assholes about "chosing" it.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[fyngyrz]

Perhaps if you took a little time and learned how slashdot actually functions, the smell of fish would resolve itself as being actually the smell of your own ignorance. Those articles are visible before they are published in several ways, some paid, some not. It's trivial to prepare a response ready to go when an article goes live. If you pay attention. Or, you can wallow in conspiracy theories. Ball's in your court.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Jake73]

Not only is it completely ineffective to hand a signed petitions to some Apple store manager in an attempt to influence the working conditions of an internationally traded public company in China...

Not so. Excuse me, but these are precisely the market forces that are supposed to insight change in "pure capitalism". Pure capitalism and our American brand of government / industry cooperation are essentially bottom-up enterprises where change usually comes from the accumulation of lots of insignificant voices.

I'm curious what alternative you would suggest would insight change? Three chain-wearing ghosts visiting Tim Cook overnight convincing him to change his businesses practices and relationships?

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Anonymous Coward]

it's simply not economically viable to manufacture here in the States.

As long as we continue to allow imports of materials covered in the blood of the workers who produced it, then yes, it will remain "not economically viable". Should we suddenly have an outburst of compassion and decide to ban such imports, I imagine it will magically become economical again to manufacture here. Also.. you're only getting about a 10% discount when you buy products produced by sweatshop as opposed to regulated and safe working conditions.

And let's be clear: The product you're buying isn't essential to your livelihood. It is a status symbol and a material comfort. Is that 10% really worth it? There are some standards that we should not compromise on: We should not allow business with companies or countries that have to place nets on and around their buildings to catch people committing suicide because of it's poor working conditions.

Thats not for Apple to decide. A company will (AND SHOULD!!!) always find the most cost-effective (yet legal) way to meet an end (short of compromising design or manufacturing goals). Thats the responsibility the company has to its shareholders.

If Apple all-of-a-sudden decided to "be ethical" and manufacture in the good ol' US of A, then arguably, that 10% cost makes them less competitive than their rivals. Go to any business school instructor/professor and ask him/her to explain to you "competitive advantage". If you want business practices changed on an industry, don't attack the most successful, because they are trained (through positive feedback) that their methods produce desirable results (like Apple's most recent quarterly result). Instead, talk to your law-maker and make sure that the US sanctions foreign countries that make goods that don't meet our ethical guidelines for GMPs (good manufacturing practices). Then everyone has to play on the same field and no one falls behind on the "competitive" scale.

My $0.02

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[alexgieg]

Is that 10% really worth it?

Those Foxconn employees chose to work there because, to them, it's much better than working in the alternative business, namely, very dirty and very poor 4th world level farming. If big companies all around started refusing to work with Foxconn, it'd shrink, laying all that people off, back to the farms, to die of diseases they currently don't. So, even if the current situation is currently "bad" (from our perspective), the alternative is worse.

There's no magic trick. The only real solution for poor working conditions is to increase demand for labor more than the net growth of the workforce. Higher demand coupled with lower offer equals higher prices (in this case, higher wages). Once the demand over there is so high that companies start competing among themselves for workers, so that workers can start choosing were to work, a choice which usually includes considerations on working conditions, these companies will all find themselves compelled to improve working conditions, or start losing their best workers, then the average ones, and finally even the bad ones. Not being dumb, they'll follow the improvement path simply because there'll be no alternative.

All of which means, counter-intuitively as it seems, that people should actually do the opposite of what you suggested.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[KhabaLox]

Where are the demonstrations against the Chinese government?

There were never any demonstrations, and the demonstrators are in jail.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Bribing an activist with an iPhone 4

Where did you get that from ?

or beating up a worker to control the news, is hardly what I'd call "do[ing] better".

That was an action taken by Foxconn. You can't hold Apple responsible for the actions of all its suppliers. The economics dictate Apple goes to China, just like all its competitors, it chooses the best of a bad bunch (Foxconn) for its supplier, then it tries to improve matters by pushing for better inspections and monitoring than its competitors. How's that not doing better ?

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[LordLucless]

Using incite rather than insight could work ;P

Seriously though, capitalism was never predicated around petitions. If you want "pure capitalism" to work, then the response is to not buy Apple products. A petition may be a useful adjunct, so Apple knows why they're being boycotted, but a petition without accompanying action is meaningless.

Secondly, by focussing on Apple you're giving a free-pass to all the other tech companies who are using the exact same supplier. If you boycott Apple, just to be some other products produced by the exact same factory, you're applying absolutely zero pressure to that factory.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Charliemopps]

Bullshit. Apple is a large, high-profile target. It makes perfect sense to go after them. Will Dell customers care? Nintendo? No. About the only tech consumers that are going to give a shit about this sort of thing are naive yuppies that can actually afford to pay the extra cost of having something manufactured by people making the same wage their teenage kids make at the local McDonalds.

I actually disagree with the point of the protests. As shitty as the jobs are to us they are great for someone that's facing subsistence farming or prostitution as an alternative. People don't jump off roofs because they're about to loose a job they hate. Would they rather have the ridiculously cushy jobs we have here? Hell yes, but the alternatives in their own country are far less appealing, and as much as you may dislike Foxcon, they are the conduit to better working conditions for this generations children. Just like the sweat shops of the 1900's were for the jobs we have now. Wealth drives fair labor practices. If you can make pay rent and put food on the table by working at McDonalds or a Gas station, you certainly wont put up with working in a shit-hole factory for the same money. But they aren't going to build those McDonalds until there are enough shit-hole factories around for customers to show up.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[izomiac]

For most big electronics companies, it's simply not economically viable to manufacture here in the States.

Part of the reason people are going after Apple is because Apple isn't one of them. Their profit margins could easily support the somewhat higher manufacturing costs. Plus, Apple publicly praised the factory for their slave-like working conditions that facilitate rapid design changes at the CEO's whim.

Remember that the last article said that Apple was the best about being proactive about labor conditions...so where are the protests against the companies that aren't?

Not being the worst doesn't make you immune to criticism. Also, none of the other manufacturers have as much name recognition or as much influence over Foxconn. The former is necessary to garner enough support to influence the western company, and the latter is necessary for actual change to occur.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[JWSmythe]

    I believe Apple is being targeted, because they just reported record profits. Profits, mind you, are largely because of the business practices at Foxconn. If they couldn't sell a $5 iPad for $500, their profits wouldn't have been so large.

    I'd rather see the manufacturing jobs moved to where the consumers are. If the 40% of the users are in the us, 40% of the devices should be manufactured here. It makes sound economic sense. Instead, these companies prefer to manufacture in the absolutely cheapest places possible, disregarding what would be human rights violations here in the US. In the end, the blame is with the consumers. They are happily spending too much money on a name brand, when they know what business practices are in place.

    I only mention Apple, because you did. Unfortunately for the consumer, right now it's near impossible to find quite a bit of merchandise that was manufactured in their own country.

    The only argument that can be made for keeping these jobs offshore is, they can do it cheaper. There's no way you can find American workers who can afford to work for $20/mo. You'd be hard pressed to eat on $20/mo, much less have a place to live.

    Companies should be looking at being economically responsible, rather than admiring their record earnings. There's no prize for doing so though. If you turn higher profits, your share holders make more money, and your stock prices climb. If you just break even, your company won't have an excellent growth forecast, and that doesn't play well on Wall Street.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Anonymous Coward]

Where does $20 per month come up? The average Chinese wage is something like $20 per day now, certainly at least for College graduates. Granted that's lower than the US (for now, he he), Japan, and most of Europe, but it's rising steadily.

The problem isn't so much that workers in the US can't do it, but that they are spoiled and they don't want to. Sending stuff offshore costs money. Dealing with different companies costs money. Shipping things around the globe costs money too - all of which means that people won't farm work to China or somewhere else just because it's slightly cheaper - it has to be a *lot* cheaper.

But US workers think it's their "right" to earn $25/hour for labor jobs that don't require a college degree or any advanced vocational training - and they use Unions to enforce this. When it costs $25 per hour to get someone to run a wire, or $25 per hour to get someone with 2 month's training to operate a screwdriver to put car doors on, something's wrong. Unions were probably necessary at one point when the companies had way too much bargaining power, but now the Unions have a monopoly on labor, and can demand well above natural market rates. The US can only lose from that in the long term.

As for " disregarding what would be human rights violations here in the US." Yeah, the US has not always had the same standards they do now, and some of them seem absurd to the rest of the world. There is no reason a 16 year old shouldn't be able to work if they want to. There is also no reason people shouldn't be allowed to work overtime if they want to. Some people would kill for more overtime, and then human rights groups come in and say "no, you can't do that".

I do believe that they should improve safety standards, but what is a reasonable cost/benefit trade-off to Americans is not yet reasonable in China or India. The best way to change that is to let them continue to make money.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[bryan1945]

"If the 40% of the users are in the us, 40% of the devices should be manufactured here. It makes sound economic sense."
That makes absolutely no sense. A company exists to make money, not enforce social policy.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[countvlad]

If by "force them to do it" you mean "don't buy their products" then I'm onboard, otherwise you're just worse than the problem. And you might want to double check what protectionism is (I assume that's what you meant by "isolationism", which is fundamentally different...), because placing taxes on imported goods is pretty much what protectionism is.

Why is outsourcing everything good in the long run? Because if we didn't outsource it, you probably wouldn't be able to afford it. It's not like it's complicated; if US companies didn't/couldn't outsource, then they'd have no hope of competing with their european and asian counterparts. Period. You want to play the protectionism game? Sure, go for it. Europe and Asia will happily play that game and slap tariffs on all US goods. Do you think we can get buy as a country without the world buying our goods? Guess again, it would absolutely destroy our economy.

The sad irony is that we've always had the power of "social change", but we're too stupid as a population to us it. If you don't like something for any reason, don't buy it. If you don't think other people should buy it, tell them why. If you can't win your argument through logic and ideas and your only solution is force, you're just as bad as the barbarians who want to push creationism on this country and for the same reason. Or perhaps worse, because you seem to care but refuse any rational solution because it's not radical enough to force people to change whether they want to or not!

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Dog-Cow]

The historical record shows that trade wars harm everyone. If the US enacts (higher) tariffs, so will other countries in response. That means that US exports cost more, and thus less trade is done. An economy cannot grow without trading partners.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Dog-Cow]

You have no grasp of modern economics. If the US starts a global trade war, the US will find it has no markets for its goods. Since the rest of the world isn't insane like you, they will happily trade with each other, pretty much ignoring the US.

Keep in mind that the US uses more petroleum than it can provide from its own resources. Maybe we could "single source" from US sources for a short while, but it wouldn't be more than a few years. When oil is traded in Euros because the US dollar has tanked, buying oil on the global market will be insanely expensive compared to what we pay now.

Protectionism does not work for a country's economy. It causes the economy to crash. It doesn't matter what you think should happen. It only matters that people more knowledgable than you know the consequences.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Because people...
A. Are unaware that they're doing better than others.
B. Are aware but think Apple could still do even better and fall back to the previous arguments of why Apple makes an excellent 'target'.

C: At least some, care more about a new reason to hate Apple than about Chinese workers (or any workers for that matter - make that "anyone")

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[JWSmythe]

    My mistake on the salary.

    According to this article, the average salary was raised to $293/mo. (293*12)/2080 = $1.69/hr @ 40 hr/wk.

    But that's not an accurate reflection of the pay rate. The employees work 12 to 16 hours a day, 6 to 7 days a week. So their week will be 72 to 112 hours. That makes their effective hourly wage (293*12)/(72*52) = 3516/3744 = $0.93/hr (293*12)/(112*52) = 3516/5824 = $0.60/hr

    That's not a pay rate. That's payment to fit into a loophole so slavery is legal. If you think it's fair, I'll happily employ you with the above average pay of $1.00/hr.

    The US minimum wage isn't $25/hr. The US federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr. ($15,080/yr) That is based on what a fair living wage is, but still puts a family of 2 under the poverty line. With 25% of workers in the US (adjusted U-6 number) unemployed, it can easily be assumed an "average" family of 4 (2 working age adults, 2 children), would living under the poverty line ($23,050 w/ 4 family members).

    Unions in the US came about because employees were working too many hours (70+ hrs/wk), and paid too little to thrive (under the poverty line). I'm not a fan of some of the methodologies that unions used, but they did help resolve problems in the past. They shouldn't even be needed any more, but they lobby to keep pay rates fair, so people can survive and thrive.

    There are current proposals on the table to remove US minimum wage laws. Yup, then we could compete with the foreign manufacturing plants. We'd also be increasing our working poor population.

    Now, if you don't mind, try to use facts, rather than regurgitating Fox News "reporting". It only makes you look like an idiot.

Apple gets singled out

[alvinrod]

Apple gets singled out a lot now, not because there's some new Apple bashing trend, but merely because they're now the largest and one of the most influential tech company on the planet. If this story were written in the 90's, the headline would be changed to work in Microsoft somehow. It's mostly just an attention grabbing mechanism as Foxconn alone doesn't have that kind of name recognition, but pretty much everyone is aware of Apple. Also, even if people despise the company, they might be interested in an article that makes it seems as though Apple's in trouble.

Re:Apple gets singled out

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has billions of dollars. Why don't they throw a few bucks at their employees/contractors? Are they cheap? Are they mean?

Who would buy stuff from a cheap, mean company?

Re:Apple gets singled out

[rtb61]

More importantly if Apple really believe in their products why aren't they making them themselves. Why are they relying upon 'disposable' manufacturing services, does Apple believe it's products are crappy and the need to be able to abandon them at the drop of a hat if the iFad collapses.

Let's see some commitment from Apple and manufacture of their devices where they are bought not where they can not be afforded as they represent around a year's salary at that location.

Re:Apple gets singled out

[Macgrrl]

To be fair, the Apple bashing trend isn't new. I remember the early '90s as a time of spirited Apple bashing. It was a fairly well established meme even then.

Moving Anyways

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple said a while ago they are moving production to Brazil. The hackers must not read the news.

Re:Moving Anyways

[Microlith]

They aren't moving, they are simply putting factories in Brazil to avoid the high tariffs that come from a nation that protects its labor force.

How many protestors?

[thestudio_bob]

How many protestors?

Oh yeah, only 12, and only at the Grand Central Terminal. Not sure about where else in the world this "protest" was going on, but would love to hear some stats on the crowds.

Foxconn's policies shaped by China, not Apple!

[Anonymous Coward]

They hit Foxconn. Apple has no place in this headline or story.

FYI Foxconn is a massive company that supplies:

Acer Inc. (Taiwan)[27]
Amazon.com (United States)[28]
Apple Inc. (United States)[29]
ASRock (Taiwan)[citation needed]
Asus (Taiwan)[citation needed]
Barnes & Noble (United States)[citation needed]
Cisco (United States)[30]
Dell (United States)[31]
EVGA Corporation (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)[32]
Intel (United States)[33]
IBM (United States)[citation needed]
Lenovo (China)[citation needed]
Microsoft (United States)[34]
MSI (Taiwan)[citation needed]
Motorola (United States)[31]
Netgear (United States)[citation needed]
Nintendo (Japan)[35]
Nokia (Finland)[29]
Panasonic (Japan)[citation needed]
Samsung (South Korea)[36]
Sharp (Japan)[citation needed]
Sony (Japan)[37]
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)[38]
Vizio (USA)

Complaining to Apple (or any other company on that list), which are all corporations that are basically legally obligated to seek maximum profit, about Foxconn's labor policies, which are fully in compliance with China's labor regulations, is an absolute waste of time. Governments control labor conditions through labor laws and regulations. Apple does not. You would think this is obvious, but I suppose I underestimate the power of "Apple" in headlines drawing pageviews and ad revenue.

Re:Foxconn's policies shaped by China, not Apple!

[avandesande]

No other company makes such obscene profits from this trade with Foxconn, so it is natural for people to hold them most accountable.

Not better: Influential.

[fyngyrz]

They're not taking heat for doing better. They're taking heat because they're the most influential. Hence, they are the natural vector if one wishes to impose one's will upon a client company of theirs.

Quite aside from that, there are a lot of ways this can go wrong: I hope no one actually thinks that because these people are being compensated in a particular manner, that they don't deserve to have those jobs. Because that is a real potential of complaining about sweatshops, etc... instead of a few bucks in their pockets, the workers can end up outside a shuttered business, jobless, hungry and worse.

It's always dicey when the citizens of one country decide they want to "do something" about working conditions in another country. It's never a matter of "just fixing things." There are economic balances at work, and no matter how good one's intentions might be (I should qualify that as by one's own lights), odds are good that damage will be taken by the very people who are the target of the "help."

Dealing With Bullies 101.

[PeanutButterBreath]

Not only is it completely ineffective to hand a signed petitions to some Apple store manager in an attempt to influence the working conditions of an internationally traded public company in China, it also gives a pass to every other computer company who uses Foxconn.

You pick the biggest, baddest of the bunch and sucker punch him. Is it sporting? No. Does it get results? Maybe, maybe not. But it sure feels good.

People who love Apple products are clearly willing to pay a premium. Apple's labor costs are moot in every respect except their own over-stuffed bank accounts. Apple doesn't yet believe that the number of additional units they might sell by foreswearing cheap labor will make up for the few extra dollars they will spend. Picking on them (even unfairly -- or even better unfairly) disrupts this calculation. Enough negative publicity can motivate them to make a change.

And if it Apple changes, the others will fall in line. Ain't it great to back an innovator?

Where are these kids?

[toolo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_Sweatshops

Not sure why tech gets a free pass here.

Lesser evil is still evil, so start w/ good cond's

[sethstorm]

Those Foxconn employees chose to work there because, to them, it's much better than working in the alternative business, namely, very dirty and very poor 4th world level farming. If big companies all around started refusing to work with Foxconn, it'd shrink, laying all that people off, back to the farms, to die of diseases they currently don't. So, even if the current situation is currently "bad" (from our perspective), the alternative is worse.

That's like saying that your slavemaster beats you less than someone else's. You're still a slave, you're still getting beaten, and the only difference is that you get shiny golden shackles, get beaten with precision instruments, or get executed in some van if you think about raising freedom.

The better idea is to start with good conditions in the first place. Then make sure those good conditions become a common practice. That's how you skip the evils of slavery. What China is figuring out is how to keep the slavery going so that your situation never happens; so far, they've been successful at making sure economic development doesn't result in freedoms for those that are not businesses. The totalitarian model that China gives freedom for businesses, but none for workers - for giving workers the requisite freedom would threaten business efficiency.

Headline Change Please

[Windows Breaker G4]

That headline should read Hackers Hit Everyone's Supplier, Foxconn.

I wonder what % of their business even comes from Apple? I am not saying Apple shouldn't be pushing to make things better they should. But, Apple is hardly the only person that uses Foxconn, the way you see this stuff reported you would swear Foxconn only works for Apple

It's all meaningless

[Brannon]

the vector to change runs through petitioning the governments (US or China) to enact legislation. Apple isn't breaking any laws and they aren't [arguably] doing anything unethical--which is why most people don't care.

Most people on Slashdot didn't care about "worker conditions" when Dell was the biggest computer company in the world using third world labor--but now they care because they hate Apple because Apple won't let them compile the Linux kernel or run SETI on an iPhone. Just like most people on Slashdot couldn't care less that their beloved Android phone is made in the same or worse factories as iPhones.