Hackers Hit Apple Supplier Foxconn

wiredmikey writes "Protests against Apple and Foxconn due to furor over reports about working conditions have gone digital. A group known as SwaggSec has successfully hacked computers at Foxconn, and posted the stolen data to The Pirate Bay website. News of the hack comes as protesters paid a visit today to Apple stores around the world to deliver petitions demanding the improvement of working conditions at factories run by Apple suppliers in China and other countries. In response to the attack, Foxconn reportedly took down a website that explains the services it offers to some of its partners, including Apple, Cisco and Acer."

Comments

Apple and Foxconn

[bonch]

I made this point in the last article: Foxconn is the world's largest electronic producer and is outsourced by Dell, HP, Microsoft, Google, Sony, Nintendo and more. Not only is it completely ineffective to hand a signed petitions to some Apple store manager in an attempt to influence the working conditions of an internationally traded public company in China, it also gives a pass to every other computer company who uses Foxconn. Remember that the last article said that Apple was the best about being proactive about labor conditions...so where are the protests against the companies that aren't? Where are the demonstrations against the Chinese government? It's not like Tim Cook can make a phone call and change the entire Chinese business model. There are all kinds of factors at play between the Taiwanese management of Foxconn and the Chinese labor it employs that foreign companies have no power to change.

On a related note, the NY Times published an interesting article on why the U.S. lost out on iPhone work. For most big electronics companies, it's simply not economically viable to manufacture here in the States.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I, for one don't buy anything which comes from Foxconn. No Dell, no HP, no Microsoft, no Nintendo, etc. Before buying something I check where and by who is made.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[CharlyFoxtrot]

"Though he [Labour activist Li Qiang] believes that Apple has done a better job of inspecting its factories than others, Li maintains that the public is right to put more pressure on Tim Cook’s company than its competitors who have the same problems. Because Apple makes the most profit, he reasons, it also bears the most responsibility for fixing a broken system."

You may do a better job than other, but you've got deeper pockets so prepare to be punished.

"“Foxconn is not good,” Li told the New York Times. ”But if we compare all industries, electronics, textile, toys, Foxconn is one of the best.”"

They're not even attacking the right supplier, just the one that's connected with the most high profile name so they can get their mug in the papers.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Except Apple are actually doing better than others and are getting punished for it :

"Labor Activist Li Qiang wants you to know that the iPhone 4 in his pocket is not an endorsement of Apple’s policies, just an acknowledgement that the company is doing a better job of monitoring factory conditions than its peers. The founder of leading advocacy group China Labor Watch (CLW) told us that, though the Cupertino company does more-thorough inspections than competitors, it is responsible for poor working conditions at its suppliers’ factories and needs to invest some of its record-breaking profits in improving them."

That's dangerous. Why do better if you're going to be taking heat for it anyway ?

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[girlintraining]

it's simply not economically viable to manufacture here in the States.

As long as we continue to allow imports of materials covered in the blood of the workers who produced it, then yes, it will remain "not economically viable". Should we suddenly have an outburst of compassion and decide to ban such imports, I imagine it will magically become economical again to manufacture here. Also.. you're only getting about a 10% discount when you buy products produced by sweatshop as opposed to regulated and safe working conditions.

And let's be clear: The product you're buying isn't essential to your livelihood. It is a status symbol and a material comfort. Is that 10% really worth it? There are some standards that we should not compromise on: We should not allow business with companies or countries that have to place nets on and around their buildings to catch people committing suicide because of it's poor working conditions.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[QuasiSteve]

Because people...
A. Are unaware that they're doing better than others.
B. Are aware but think Apple could still do even better and fall back to the previous arguments of why Apple makes an excellent 'target'.

Compare this to Nike. Nike still gets most of the flak even though they probably do much better than a random other brand of 'sports' shoes. Fair? Nope. Fallout from being the obvious choice thanks to your success? Yup.

As for why you would do better... good question. Why?

But somehow I doubt that Apple are just going to throw up their hands, say "there's no pleasing this crowd", and go back to circumstances as they were before they told the factories/suppliers to do a better job the first time around. So I guess they, at least, have the answer to 'why'.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that's a little defeatist. Sure other companies use Foxconn and Foxconn is in another country. However, Apple has become somewhat of an icon now. One only needs to accept that Apple is now of a flagship company in tech industry. Apple's customers ask Apple to improve worker conditions at its supplier's facilities. In turn, Foxconn now has a customer that wants conditions improved. No one expects a store manager to be able to do anything based on a petition handed to them. People do expect to get the attention of Apple.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[sonicmerlin]

right... that article was already discussed on slashdot. the gist of it was that the workers are treated like animals. regardless, wages are steadily rising in China and foxconn is now moving some plants over to Brazil where wages are lower.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[pankkake]

I don't think the hipsters are the ones criticizing Apple. And they won't until another brand gives them the ability to be smug assholes about "chosing" it.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[fyngyrz]

Perhaps if you took a little time and learned how slashdot actually functions, the smell of fish would resolve itself as being actually the smell of your own ignorance. Those articles are visible before they are published in several ways, some paid, some not. It's trivial to prepare a response ready to go when an article goes live. If you pay attention. Or, you can wallow in conspiracy theories. Ball's in your court.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Jake73]

Not only is it completely ineffective to hand a signed petitions to some Apple store manager in an attempt to influence the working conditions of an internationally traded public company in China...

Not so. Excuse me, but these are precisely the market forces that are supposed to insight change in "pure capitalism". Pure capitalism and our American brand of government / industry cooperation are essentially bottom-up enterprises where change usually comes from the accumulation of lots of insignificant voices.

I'm curious what alternative you would suggest would insight change? Three chain-wearing ghosts visiting Tim Cook overnight convincing him to change his businesses practices and relationships?

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[causality]

Labor Activist Li Qiang wants you to know that the iPhone 4 in his pocket is not an endorsement of Apple’s policies, just an acknowledgement that the company is doing a better job of monitoring factory conditions than its peers.

It is absolutely an endorsement. These issues are so much easier if we can get past this kind of "not really my fault!" double-talk.

I'll give a probably terrible analogy. Maybe you didn't intend to stub your toe. If anyone had asked, you would have said that your intend was to avoid the obstacle on the floor and not to stub your toe on it. You meant well; good enough. But you did stub your toe and you can try arguing with your toe that it wasn't your intention, but it's not going to instantly remove the pain.

Folks, whether you really intend it, or whether your ability to understand cause-and-effect ends only with "I want this thing so I'm buying it" and your vision extends no further, I can tell you one truth: anytime you patronize a business, you are implicitly endorsing and approving of its products, business practices, policies, and staff. Buying their products and/or services is your way of telling them that what they're doing is great and that they deserve to be rewarded for it. It's a more powerful statement than any letter you could write or phone call you could make.

Of course most people don't care and can't be bothered to care. This labor activist, however, is placing himself in the group who do care. That's why he's contradicting himself (or not being fully honest) by saying "it's not an endorsement". The whole "everyone else is doing it" or "others are worse" is the kind of excuse grade-schoolers are told is not valid. If you really had a problem with the business practices of all smartphone manufacturers, you would get a feature phone. Li Qiang's statement there is simply lip service designed to be as inoffensive as possible.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Rockoon]

You explanation makes sense..except that it was already +5

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Anonymous Coward]

it's simply not economically viable to manufacture here in the States.

As long as we continue to allow imports of materials covered in the blood of the workers who produced it, then yes, it will remain "not economically viable". Should we suddenly have an outburst of compassion and decide to ban such imports, I imagine it will magically become economical again to manufacture here. Also.. you're only getting about a 10% discount when you buy products produced by sweatshop as opposed to regulated and safe working conditions.

And let's be clear: The product you're buying isn't essential to your livelihood. It is a status symbol and a material comfort. Is that 10% really worth it? There are some standards that we should not compromise on: We should not allow business with companies or countries that have to place nets on and around their buildings to catch people committing suicide because of it's poor working conditions.

Thats not for Apple to decide. A company will (AND SHOULD!!!) always find the most cost-effective (yet legal) way to meet an end (short of compromising design or manufacturing goals). Thats the responsibility the company has to its shareholders.

If Apple all-of-a-sudden decided to "be ethical" and manufacture in the good ol' US of A, then arguably, that 10% cost makes them less competitive than their rivals. Go to any business school instructor/professor and ask him/her to explain to you "competitive advantage". If you want business practices changed on an industry, don't attack the most successful, because they are trained (through positive feedback) that their methods produce desirable results (like Apple's most recent quarterly result). Instead, talk to your law-maker and make sure that the US sanctions foreign countries that make goods that don't meet our ethical guidelines for GMPs (good manufacturing practices). Then everyone has to play on the same field and no one falls behind on the "competitive" scale.

My $0.02

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[stephanruby]

That's dangerous. Why do better if you're going to be taking heat for it anyway ?

Bribing an activist with an iPhone 4, or beating up a worker to control the news, is hardly what I'd call "do[ing] better".

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[alexgieg]

Is that 10% really worth it?

Those Foxconn employees chose to work there because, to them, it's much better than working in the alternative business, namely, very dirty and very poor 4th world level farming. If big companies all around started refusing to work with Foxconn, it'd shrink, laying all that people off, back to the farms, to die of diseases they currently don't. So, even if the current situation is currently "bad" (from our perspective), the alternative is worse.

There's no magic trick. The only real solution for poor working conditions is to increase demand for labor more than the net growth of the workforce. Higher demand coupled with lower offer equals higher prices (in this case, higher wages). Once the demand over there is so high that companies start competing among themselves for workers, so that workers can start choosing were to work, a choice which usually includes considerations on working conditions, these companies will all find themselves compelled to improve working conditions, or start losing their best workers, then the average ones, and finally even the bad ones. Not being dumb, they'll follow the improvement path simply because there'll be no alternative.

All of which means, counter-intuitively as it seems, that people should actually do the opposite of what you suggested.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[KhabaLox]

Where are the demonstrations against the Chinese government?

There were never any demonstrations, and the demonstrators are in jail.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[sethstorm]

Thats not for Apple to decide. A company will (AND SHOULD!!!) always find the most cost-effective (yet legal) way to meet an end (short of compromising design or manufacturing goals). Thats the responsibility the company has to its shareholders.

Pure and textbook sociopathy.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Bribing an activist with an iPhone 4

Where did you get that from ?

or beating up a worker to control the news, is hardly what I'd call "do[ing] better".

That was an action taken by Foxconn. You can't hold Apple responsible for the actions of all its suppliers. The economics dictate Apple goes to China, just like all its competitors, it chooses the best of a bad bunch (Foxconn) for its supplier, then it tries to improve matters by pushing for better inspections and monitoring than its competitors. How's that not doing better ?

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[LordLucless]

Using incite rather than insight could work ;P

Seriously though, capitalism was never predicated around petitions. If you want "pure capitalism" to work, then the response is to not buy Apple products. A petition may be a useful adjunct, so Apple knows why they're being boycotted, but a petition without accompanying action is meaningless.

Secondly, by focussing on Apple you're giving a free-pass to all the other tech companies who are using the exact same supplier. If you boycott Apple, just to be some other products produced by the exact same factory, you're applying absolutely zero pressure to that factory.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Charliemopps]

Bullshit. Apple is a large, high-profile target. It makes perfect sense to go after them. Will Dell customers care? Nintendo? No. About the only tech consumers that are going to give a shit about this sort of thing are naive yuppies that can actually afford to pay the extra cost of having something manufactured by people making the same wage their teenage kids make at the local McDonalds.

I actually disagree with the point of the protests. As shitty as the jobs are to us they are great for someone that's facing subsistence farming or prostitution as an alternative. People don't jump off roofs because they're about to loose a job they hate. Would they rather have the ridiculously cushy jobs we have here? Hell yes, but the alternatives in their own country are far less appealing, and as much as you may dislike Foxcon, they are the conduit to better working conditions for this generations children. Just like the sweat shops of the 1900's were for the jobs we have now. Wealth drives fair labor practices. If you can make pay rent and put food on the table by working at McDonalds or a Gas station, you certainly wont put up with working in a shit-hole factory for the same money. But they aren't going to build those McDonalds until there are enough shit-hole factories around for customers to show up.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[sgt scrub]

It is more practical to target them one at a time. Targeting the largest consumer of Foxconn's products first makes it more likely that people will have an effect. If Apple hears people and uses their massive nest egg to do the right thing, that will be a big chunk out of Foxxconn's wallet. Also, when one company sees people successfully beat up a company and know they might be next, they tend to start doing the right thing more quickly.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[wrencherd]

It's kind of like if John Doe, Jane Smith and Lady Gaga shopped at a clothing store whose clothes come from sweatshops, and complaining that everybody is focusing on Lady Gaga.

Not really. It would only be sort of like that if (1) John Doe and Jane Smith were also in the business of becoming celebrated recording stars, and (2) buying clothes at the store you've described guaranteed cd sales and profits on those sales.

Then you might be on to something; as it is, Dell, Acer, the entirety of the US auto industry, Sony, Toshiba, etc, etc. aren't at all like John Doe and Jane Smith.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[izomiac]

For most big electronics companies, it's simply not economically viable to manufacture here in the States.

Part of the reason people are going after Apple is because Apple isn't one of them. Their profit margins could easily support the somewhat higher manufacturing costs. Plus, Apple publicly praised the factory for their slave-like working conditions that facilitate rapid design changes at the CEO's whim.

Remember that the last article said that Apple was the best about being proactive about labor conditions...so where are the protests against the companies that aren't?

Not being the worst doesn't make you immune to criticism. Also, none of the other manufacturers have as much name recognition or as much influence over Foxconn. The former is necessary to garner enough support to influence the western company, and the latter is necessary for actual change to occur.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[sgt scrub]

A china based company will open its doors paying higher wages and forcing fewer hours and charge 10% more. Force them to compete with each other without using/abusing their employees. If customers don't insist the people they are dealing with are fairly with their employees then nothing will change.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[JWSmythe]

    I believe Apple is being targeted, because they just reported record profits. Profits, mind you, are largely because of the business practices at Foxconn. If they couldn't sell a $5 iPad for $500, their profits wouldn't have been so large.

    I'd rather see the manufacturing jobs moved to where the consumers are. If the 40% of the users are in the us, 40% of the devices should be manufactured here. It makes sound economic sense. Instead, these companies prefer to manufacture in the absolutely cheapest places possible, disregarding what would be human rights violations here in the US. In the end, the blame is with the consumers. They are happily spending too much money on a name brand, when they know what business practices are in place.

    I only mention Apple, because you did. Unfortunately for the consumer, right now it's near impossible to find quite a bit of merchandise that was manufactured in their own country.

    The only argument that can be made for keeping these jobs offshore is, they can do it cheaper. There's no way you can find American workers who can afford to work for $20/mo. You'd be hard pressed to eat on $20/mo, much less have a place to live.

    Companies should be looking at being economically responsible, rather than admiring their record earnings. There's no prize for doing so though. If you turn higher profits, your share holders make more money, and your stock prices climb. If you just break even, your company won't have an excellent growth forecast, and that doesn't play well on Wall Street.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[sgt scrub]

Could you provide a link please. Last I looked, 2010, minimum wage in Brazil was triple that of China. I like to keep up to date.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[LordNimon]

Because Apple makes the most profit, he reasons, it also bears the most responsibility for fixing a broken system.

Some people will call me a liberal, but I believe this wholeheartedly. Look at my signature. The people who are most capable of fixing a problem ("hold high places") must take the initiative to fix it. Is this the same thing as punishing success? I like to think that being able to help the less fortunate is a reward of success.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[fyngyrz]

It's trivial to prepare a response ready to go when an article goes live.

That was actually what I was implying. If true, this show how desperate this fanboy is.

Sigh. No, it doesn't. It shows that he had as much as 45 minutes to create a post, perhaps even a thoughtful one. That's all it shows.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Viceice]

Don't ban imports, simply impose import duties on all manufactured items until it BECOMES competitive to build it in America. Either jobs return to America, or suddenly there is enough money to seriously fix the national debt. It's win win.

And to the people who say that it will ruin the economy, quite the opposite. The economy DOES NOT exist on Wall St, it exists when everyday people exchange the goods or service they produce for those of others. More people producing and then consuming in America simply makes the American economy better.

On top of that, on purchasing power terms, in most Asian countries the cost of an iPad is anywhere from 1-3 months salary for the average middle class person, yet it still sells like hot cakes. The argument that people won't buy an iDevice if the price goes up 3 fold if made in America is simply flawed.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[martin-boundary]

A petition may be a useful adjunct, so Apple knows why they're being boycotted, but a petition without accompanying action is meaningless.

You don't understand what a petition is for.

A petition is a way of making customers aware that they should refuse to buy from Apple. One stands around a table for hours and asks each potential customer to sign the petition. If they do, they're probably going to think twice about entering the store or buying something. If they don't sign and argue, the activity around the table will probably attract some interest from passers by, some of which may even agre to sign.

It's all about having a document that a lot of people must sign, because the side effect of that is that a lot of people are being made aware of what's going on. The document itself is just an excuse, and whether Apple has read it or not is well nigh irrelevant.

If you wanted to tell Apple that you're boycotting them, you could do it in a private letter sent to their HQ. It would go straight to the bin, and nobody but you would know that you're boycotting them. Now that's pretty meaningless.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Anonymous Coward]

Where does $20 per month come up? The average Chinese wage is something like $20 per day now, certainly at least for College graduates. Granted that's lower than the US (for now, he he), Japan, and most of Europe, but it's rising steadily.

The problem isn't so much that workers in the US can't do it, but that they are spoiled and they don't want to. Sending stuff offshore costs money. Dealing with different companies costs money. Shipping things around the globe costs money too - all of which means that people won't farm work to China or somewhere else just because it's slightly cheaper - it has to be a *lot* cheaper.

But US workers think it's their "right" to earn $25/hour for labor jobs that don't require a college degree or any advanced vocational training - and they use Unions to enforce this. When it costs $25 per hour to get someone to run a wire, or $25 per hour to get someone with 2 month's training to operate a screwdriver to put car doors on, something's wrong. Unions were probably necessary at one point when the companies had way too much bargaining power, but now the Unions have a monopoly on labor, and can demand well above natural market rates. The US can only lose from that in the long term.

As for " disregarding what would be human rights violations here in the US." Yeah, the US has not always had the same standards they do now, and some of them seem absurd to the rest of the world. There is no reason a 16 year old shouldn't be able to work if they want to. There is also no reason people shouldn't be allowed to work overtime if they want to. Some people would kill for more overtime, and then human rights groups come in and say "no, you can't do that".

I do believe that they should improve safety standards, but what is a reasonable cost/benefit trade-off to Americans is not yet reasonable in China or India. The best way to change that is to let them continue to make money.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Graff]

Bribing an activist with an iPhone 4, or beating up a worker to control the news, is hardly what I'd call "do[ing] better".

Did you bother to click through to the actual "article"?

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2009/07/21/reports-of-suicide-in-china-linked-to-missing-iphone/

It's a blog that's very light on any verifiable facts and instead uses unattributed reports:

Some publications reported that, in the days prior to his suicide, Sun had been detained and beaten by a senior official

So you linked to a blog about a blog that uses treats terms like this as facts with nearly no direct reporting or attribution:

• "News media in China"
• "Some publications reported"
• "some reports quoted"
• "Some English-language blogs"

I suppose that I have too high of standards for this day-and-age of blog rumormongering...

Maybe this incident occurred, maybe it didn't. Maybe Foxconn is evil, maybe it isn't. Maybe Apple is responsible, maybe it isn't. We'll get any meaningful answers if all we have are rumors and unsubstantiated aspersions!

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[bryan1945]

"If the 40% of the users are in the us, 40% of the devices should be manufactured here. It makes sound economic sense."
That makes absolutely no sense. A company exists to make money, not enforce social policy.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[sonicmerlin]

Yeah sorry I'm an idiot. (it's a little over double though based on GDP).

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[EdIII]

Which is why society needs to get together and force them to do it.

At the rate the US is cratering in education, infrastructure, manufacturing know-how, research, etc. all that is left is the bullshit that Hollywood produces. We call that Intellectual Property.

In order to protect IP, we are bullying the rest of the world to adopt copyright laws and frameworks that are quite frankly insane and damaging to society.

It's not isolationism or discrimination to put tariffs in place that are designed to make it just slightly more expensive to purchase an imported product. It's just good sense if what you cared about was the long term health of your country and your people.

If you think I am wrong, then please explain to me how we are not doing that bad. Not companies, but people. Explain how allowing companies to outsource everything is good for people in the long run. Please avoid the bullshit explanation that people could invest and be shareholders.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[blackest_k]

you assume that people buy iPhones and iPads based on cost. That isn't true, if cost was the deciding factor then logically people would buy an android phone or tablet, since they effectively do the same thing and are cheaper.

If Apple manufactured in the USA you might find sales increase due to Americans having a sense of national pride supporting American jobs.
McDonalds in the UK and Ireland advertise that they only use British and Irish beef in their burgers, Supermarkets similarly promote locally produced products.

You may find sales improve due to buyer ethics, "fair trade" products sell at higher prices, than non fair trade precisely because the buyer chooses an ethical product over one which exploits the producer.

Nike a company which has previously had consumer pressure applied sells it's shoes at a premium price which more than offsets the cost of making people feel good about buying Nike.

Consumer pressure helps improve conditions for the people who produce the products that they buy. Almost predictably the one class of consumer which is almost always price aware is the corporation who looks for the lowest cost for it's infrastructure.

One type of consumer that I've largely ignored are the ones barely getting by lowest price is what matters above all else as they are making choices between eating and heating paying for rent or mortgage for these people buying Apple products isn't an option so price of an iPad really doesn't matter, they can't afford a new one at any price.

There is another group that is slightly ahead of the really poor folk who also get screwed over and that is the people who buy iPads and iPhones through a contract with a service provider, they get a low up front cost but pay way more over the life of the contract for the device than the device is worth. To them there is no real difference in price between a phone built in china or the usa they still pay the same regardless. It's the service providers profits which get reduced a little per user but they also can be the only provider carrying the phone so get more users and more profit that way.

I'm being screwed as well and i have a cheap android phone i bought outright and i pay as i go.
I get free skype calls i get 3000 texts a month i get free calls at weekends i get free data i even get 10 euro free credit a month if i buy 20 euro a month worth of credit. if i buy 10 euro i get no free calls, no skype and no free texts. It sounds a lot but i don't actually use more than a small percentage of the "freebies". So essentially i'm on a call plan which is at least 20 euro a month, cheaper than a contract, just. If I had a contract I would have a better phone and i would be paying it off over the contract period. The contract would be maybe 7 euro upwards a month more and i'd have a lump sum to pay towards the phone cost.

of course i have the option in pay as I go of not topping up till my freebies run out. Which means i only need pay my minimum 20 euros and i can always email or text or skype with my phone and receive calls when i run out of call credit (which doesnt take long). On a contract i would be in a similar situation but i would be paying for calls at the end of the month as i'd have gone through my included minutes on a cheap contract. last contract i had i never used all my minutes but national calls international and freephone calls all were charged for outside of my included minutes.

So while starting with the ethical and national pride reasons for why we might pay more for iPhones it comes down to mostly we don't buy iPhones directly our service providers do and sell them to us at a huge markup so it makes no difference to us as consumers how much they cost, it's the corporation we are contracted with that would feel the pinch and if they won't bare it then another corporation will and we will switch as soon as the sentence ^^^H contract is up.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[tlhIngan]

On a related note, the NY Times published an interesting article on why the U.S. lost out on iPhone work. For most big electronics companies, it's simply not economically viable to manufacture here in the States.

I contend otherwise. Your point is 100% correct if every Chinese job there translated to an American job here. But it doesn't.

You see, the average American in a manufacturing job is much more efficient than their Chinese counterpart. I'd contend easily 10-to-1 or more.

The reason? The average American wage for manufacturing is much higher. Thus, a company wanting to build in America must design their product to use as few people as possible. So what happens is they design for manufacturing by automation. I.e., they use manufacturing robots.

So what happens is very few people are involved in direct manufacturing (if you design it right, you can go from parts to packed and sealed product without being touched by human hands). So the few people you do employ at a factory will be those who oversee the robots and assembly line. And a few technicians.

So the good news is we made some very highly skilled high paying jobs, but we also lost many more low skilled Chinese jobs. There's also a trickle down in that you've made a designer get high pay for design for manufacturing, optimizing the design so it can be assembled and packed by robots.

Of course, you lose design flexibility - with a human-intensive method like China, you can change the design on a whim. For a robotic assemblyline, it takes much longer as the robots need to be retrained and often times, new molds and test jigs have to be created for the robots, which can delay production by months.

The other problem is, does the US have a sufficiently trained workforce for this? If Apple were to try, it would be limited to whom it can hire.

I think with the proper design, it wouldn't cost Apple much more to use US labour - if they can get 1 American to oversee the robots assembling the same number of products as 100 Chinese workers, then the costs are a wash. Of course, 3,000 jobs doesn't make a huge drup in the unemployment bucket.

More practically, China's at the same point in their industrialization as the US was 100-150 years ago. Similarity in working conditions, pay, etc, are very similar to way back when.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[countvlad]

If by "force them to do it" you mean "don't buy their products" then I'm onboard, otherwise you're just worse than the problem. And you might want to double check what protectionism is (I assume that's what you meant by "isolationism", which is fundamentally different...), because placing taxes on imported goods is pretty much what protectionism is.

Why is outsourcing everything good in the long run? Because if we didn't outsource it, you probably wouldn't be able to afford it. It's not like it's complicated; if US companies didn't/couldn't outsource, then they'd have no hope of competing with their european and asian counterparts. Period. You want to play the protectionism game? Sure, go for it. Europe and Asia will happily play that game and slap tariffs on all US goods. Do you think we can get buy as a country without the world buying our goods? Guess again, it would absolutely destroy our economy.

The sad irony is that we've always had the power of "social change", but we're too stupid as a population to us it. If you don't like something for any reason, don't buy it. If you don't think other people should buy it, tell them why. If you can't win your argument through logic and ideas and your only solution is force, you're just as bad as the barbarians who want to push creationism on this country and for the same reason. Or perhaps worse, because you seem to care but refuse any rational solution because it's not radical enough to force people to change whether they want to or not!

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Dog-Cow]

The historical record shows that trade wars harm everyone. If the US enacts (higher) tariffs, so will other countries in response. That means that US exports cost more, and thus less trade is done. An economy cannot grow without trading partners.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Dog-Cow]

You have no grasp of modern economics. If the US starts a global trade war, the US will find it has no markets for its goods. Since the rest of the world isn't insane like you, they will happily trade with each other, pretty much ignoring the US.

Keep in mind that the US uses more petroleum than it can provide from its own resources. Maybe we could "single source" from US sources for a short while, but it wouldn't be more than a few years. When oil is traded in Euros because the US dollar has tanked, buying oil on the global market will be insanely expensive compared to what we pay now.

Protectionism does not work for a country's economy. It causes the economy to crash. It doesn't matter what you think should happen. It only matters that people more knowledgable than you know the consequences.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Those with the broadest shoulders should bear the heaviest burden, I agree with that. However, when do you cross the line and become a neo-colonist company telling people how they should organize their country ? Secondly Apple are doing more as indicated in the article, so how much is enough ? The broadest shoulders should bear the heaviest burden but you can't become Atlas and start carrying the burden of the world.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[QuasiSteve]

as it is, Dell, Acer, the entirety of the US auto industry, Sony, Toshiba, etc, etc. aren't at all like John Doe and Jane Smith.

What if I told you that John Doe was the head of Dell and Jane Smith the CEO of SONY?

That's the entire point, isn't it? Next to Apple, they might as well be 'John Doe' and 'Jane Smith'. Again.. is that fair? No. Is it rational? Heck no. Is that the reality of the matter to the vast majority of people? Yes.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[drinkypoo]

Those Foxconn employees chose to work there because, to them, it's much better than working in the alternative business, namely, very dirty and very poor 4th world level farming. If big companies all around started refusing to work with Foxconn, it'd shrink, laying all that people off, back to the farms, to die of diseases they currently don't.

Don't be an idiot. If big companies all over the world refused to do business with companies which treat employees like slaves (never mind that Foxconn treats their slaves slightly better than do the other slavemasters, they still exist in conditions which we would consider slavery here) then all of those companies would treat their workers better, the cost of goods would increase, and life would go on for everyone. It's true that slightly less needless crap would be produced, but that stuff is harmful to all of us in the long term.

The only real solution for poor working conditions is to increase demand for labor more than the net growth of the workforce.

Great. When you figure out how to get the world to consume 100x more useless shit, hopefully without polluting us all to death, then perhaps this will help the other 800 million people in China get a slave job, too.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[gnasher719]

Seriously though, capitalism was never predicated around petitions. If you want "pure capitalism" to work, then the response is to not buy Apple products. A petition may be a useful adjunct, so Apple knows why they're being boycotted, but a petition without accompanying action is meaningless.

So what would be the result if nobody bought any Apple product anymore? There were reports that over 300 workers threatened suicide at the Apple factory quite recently. Actually, that was workers who were in fear of losing their jobs because Microsoft was reducing XBox production, but the headlines reported about suicide threats at the "Apple factory". So you many people would lose their jobs if Apple stops building iPhones? How many would kill themselves?

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[drinkypoo]

Seriously though, capitalism was never predicated around petitions. If you want "pure capitalism" to work, then the response is to not buy Apple products.

If *I* don't buy Apple products, nothing has changed, because I don't buy Apple products anyway, so no, that is a stupid response and you are a stupid person for making it.

petition may be a useful adjunct, so Apple knows why they're being boycotted, but a petition without accompanying action is meaningless.

I bet you're one of those people who don't think that speaking is an action, or sharing information. Unfortunately, that is stupid. The truth is that by disseminating a petition more people are made aware of Apple's evil, which potentially causes people who would have purchased Apple products not to do so. Therefore the petition is infinitely more effective than simply boycotting a company. Put another way, in the hopes that you will understand one of the many sentences I have used to say the same thing even in your ignorance, a petition is a way to form an effective boycott.

Secondly, by focussing on Apple you're giving a free-pass to all the other tech companies who are using the exact same supplier.

Apple is gaining more profit per instance of injustice than other manufacturers. In combat (and this is essentially a war of capitalism vs. human decency, and apple is just one player) you take out targets in order according to strategic goals (aside from targets of opportunity.) If your goal is attrition you attack the weakest targets first. If your goal is reduction of force or demoralization you go after the largest targets. Apple is the largest target. It makes sense to go after them first if you want to enact change.

Keep trying, though, maybe someday you'll hit upon some actual logic.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[LordLucless]

Try without littering it with personal insults next time, and maybe you'll be able to put together something worth the effort of reading.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[drinkypoo]

Try without littering it with personal insults next time, and maybe you'll be able to put together something worth the effort of reading

That's OK, no matter how many insults I put in my comment it won't be as uselessly wrong as yours.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Because people...
A. Are unaware that they're doing better than others.
B. Are aware but think Apple could still do even better and fall back to the previous arguments of why Apple makes an excellent 'target'.

C: At least some, care more about a new reason to hate Apple than about Chinese workers (or any workers for that matter - make that "anyone")

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Well, I, for one don't buy anything which comes from Foxconn. No Dell, no HP, no Microsoft, no Nintendo, etc. Before buying something I check where and by who is made.

Foxconn is also one of the (if not the) largest maker of connectors - good look making your PC Foxconn free.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[flink]

The problem isn't so much that workers in the US can't do it, but that they are spoiled and they don't want to.

If by spoiled you mean refusing to live in factory housing so they can be rousted at 2am to reconfigure the line and work a 16 hour shift due to a last minute change order, then they are spoiled.

But US workers think it's their "right" to earn $25/hour for labor jobs that don't require a college degree or any advanced vocational training - and they use Unions to enforce this. When it costs $25 per hour to get someone to run a wire, or $25 per hour to get someone with 2 month's training to operate a screwdriver to put car doors on, something's wrong.

When a production line goes down, it costs an astronomical amount of money every minute it is down. Because you don't want the line to go down, you want responsible adults working the line, not teenagers. Responsible adults need to put a roof over their heads and potentially feed a family. It'd also be nice if maybe there was enough left over so their kids can go to school or get the advanced vocational training their parents never got. So you need to pay a living wage.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[JWSmythe]

    I've spent plenty of time complaining about Dell too, don't worry. :) This was an apple-centric thread, which is why I called them by name.

    Many corps use Dell, so they have an emotional tie to the Dell equipment. It's something I really have never understood. They charge more than their competitors, and generally use commodity hardware. They get cases and motherboards built just far enough off of standard that they aren't interchangeable. They do a better job of marketing. They show amazing "starting at" prices, but once you configure one to be comparable, the price is far higher than competitive. Still, people tell me how great a "deal" they got from Dell, by paying double what the machine was worth. Hrm.

    Apple takes the other approach. Screw advertising the cheapest prices. They go straight for the boutique audience. Why buy brand X at $50, when you can buy brand A for $400.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[LordNimon]

Dude, that was a long time ago. I never even heard of Foxconn back then. So stop presuming that you know me.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[MasaMuneCyrus]

Since the rest of the world isn't insane like you, they will happily trade with each other, pretty much ignoring the US.

What do you call it when the Chinese government forces foreign companies that sell products there to make their products there; then forces the foreign company to make a joint 49%-51% venture where the Chinese company has the 51% share and automatically owns all IP rights that are developed for that manufacturing; then uses free government "loans" to fund a startup Chinese company whose IP was either procured from the 49%-51% rule or stolen by a senior factory engineer at the foreign company's Chinese factory; then pumps state money into that Chinese company so that they can manufacture essentially for free; then aggressively exports that product around the globe as an alternative to the foreign company's product which it was originally stolen from?

I guess you would call that "free trade," and you would call steep tariffs on those products by the US "protectionism."

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[maple_shaft]

In the US I can make more than $20/month by begging or digging through trash for aluminum cans to take to the recycle center. There is the free market competition for you.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[maple_shaft]

But US workers think it's their "right" to earn $25/hour for labor jobs that don't require a college degree or any advanced vocational training - and they use Unions to enforce this.

Bull. Several of my friends are unskilled factory laborers in the US and they are happy to do it for $11/hr and cheap 80/20 health insurance. Any temp agency for unskilled work has plenty of these jobs lined up and a lot of people work them. Even saying the word "union" in one of these factories will result in you being fired and possibly blacklisted.

Frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. There is more to American manufacturing than a few spoiled workers at General Motors, and anybody who thinks that ANY of these big electronics companies couldn't pay a little more to keep their factories here is being disingenuous.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[JWSmythe]

    My mistake on the salary.

    According to this article, the average salary was raised to $293/mo. (293*12)/2080 = $1.69/hr @ 40 hr/wk.

    But that's not an accurate reflection of the pay rate. The employees work 12 to 16 hours a day, 6 to 7 days a week. So their week will be 72 to 112 hours. That makes their effective hourly wage (293*12)/(72*52) = 3516/3744 = $0.93/hr (293*12)/(112*52) = 3516/5824 = $0.60/hr

    That's not a pay rate. That's payment to fit into a loophole so slavery is legal. If you think it's fair, I'll happily employ you with the above average pay of $1.00/hr.

    The US minimum wage isn't $25/hr. The US federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr. ($15,080/yr) That is based on what a fair living wage is, but still puts a family of 2 under the poverty line. With 25% of workers in the US (adjusted U-6 number) unemployed, it can easily be assumed an "average" family of 4 (2 working age adults, 2 children), would living under the poverty line ($23,050 w/ 4 family members).

    Unions in the US came about because employees were working too many hours (70+ hrs/wk), and paid too little to thrive (under the poverty line). I'm not a fan of some of the methodologies that unions used, but they did help resolve problems in the past. They shouldn't even be needed any more, but they lobby to keep pay rates fair, so people can survive and thrive.

    There are current proposals on the table to remove US minimum wage laws. Yup, then we could compete with the foreign manufacturing plants. We'd also be increasing our working poor population.

    Now, if you don't mind, try to use facts, rather than regurgitating Fox News "reporting". It only makes you look like an idiot.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[mcgrew]

Yes, they outsource to everybody, but Apple is the biggest by far. If Dell told the Fox Con to clean up their act, Dell would be laughed out of the building. If Apple told Fox Con to clean up their act and added an "or else" things would change.

Apple's being singled out because besides Fox Con, they're the only ones with power to do anything about it.

I'm almost as amused by Foxconn's name as I am the name of a local construction company, Construx. I see thier trucks with "Construx" on them and laugh -- "Con's trucks."

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[228e2]

Where does $20 per month come up? The average Chinese wage is something like $20 per day now, certainly at least for College graduates.

Not that I think you're lying, but if you're going to chastise the parent for pulling numbers out of his ass, you really shouldnt pull numbers out of yours.

tl;dr - citation needed.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[maple_shaft]

An economy cannot grow without trading partners.

Our economy doesn't need to grow, and that is the fundamental problem. Modern economics is basically a pyramid scheme based on the false notion of infinite growth and expansion. This is an archaic world view that served us well when their were unexplored frontiers and new opportunities everywhere.

I don't know if you noticed this but the world is getting awfully smaller and there are just too many people for capitalism as it is practiced in its current form to result in healthy wealth gaps and thus a healthy society.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[GameboyRMH]

Obsessive Apple fanboy + subscription + other Apple fanboys with mod points = copypasta post defending Apple getting modded up.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[TheRaven64]

It depends on how you do it. My proposal is to set a threshold, say 50%, and say that all imports must be made by people earning this much of the minimum wage in the destination company, and with other regulations (environmental protection, working hours, and so on) scaled by the same amount. They can still make their iPads in China, but they'd have to pay the workers about $10K, instead of about $3.5K per year. Not a huge difference, but enough that it would bring some jobs back and (importantly) help increase the size of the market for reciprocal trade (it's hard to sell stuff to Foxconn workers, because they probably can't afford whatever you're selling). Each year, raise this level by a one percent.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[dave562]

IP is about a lot more than Hollywood movies and music. All of that "manufacturing know-how, research, etc" that you are so concerned with is also IP.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[dave562]

It is not so much about hating Apple as it is that Apple is the perfect example of monetary imbalance. They made BILLIONS of dollars in profit LAST QUARTER. Three months, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS (13.06 billion according the article I read). They made those profits on the backs of slave laborers, working in harsh conditions. People with one shred of a social conscience recognize that those profits are obscene and morally wrong.

If Apple cannot produce their products in the US, they can at least improve the standard of living for the people who do make their products. I bet that one of those multiple billions that Apple made, divided evenly among the Foxconn workforce would equal one hell of a bonus check for the employees.

Of course it won't happen. Apple does not give two shits about their workers. They are not alone in that. They are just a bright, shining example of how capitalism is skewed in favor of the employer and away from the people who actually make the goods.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[toriver]

Suicide rate at Foxconn: 18 per million workers. Sucide rate in the general population: At least ten times higher. The cameras would be facing out of the factory...

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[toriver]

No, it simply is not feasible to produce the quantities necessary to satisfy demand in other countries. This has been explained multiple times: If you build a factory in St. Louis for instance, where are you going to magically summon 20,000 workers? China can produce that amount of workers in no time flat.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[scot4875]

Comments like yours remind me of some bawling child on the playground blubbering "b-b-but he did it too!" as if that is an acceptable excuse for their own behavior.

And if you're just trying to ruffle the feathers of all the rabid Dell fanbois out there, well, you might not want to hold your breath waiting for indignant posts defending them...

--Jeremy

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[scot4875]

And on top of this, Apple does *everything* they can to present themselves as an all-American company. Every one of their products mentions how it came from Cupertino right on the packaging in a very conspicuous location as you open it. "Designed by Apple in California" was on my MacBook Pro's box, IIRC. Of course, "designed" doesn't mean "manufactured", but less discerning customers won't really focus on that word, they'll focus on "California."

I don't know of any other consumer electronics company that goes out of their way to mislead their customers in this manner.

--Jeremy

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[toriver]

No, because labor costs is just one variable in the equation. Labor supply, for instance, is another. China has over a billion people, including millions that are perfectly willing to leave their homes for a year or two of living in dorms while earning 20% more than the average industrial worker in China. Where in the U.S. are you supposed to find that kind of work force? Should ex-carmakers retrain to become phone assembly line workers?

Apple did try to manufacture in America back in the day. The result was inability to meet demand, and higher prices. If Apple move back to the States while HP, Dell and Lenovo remain in China, Apple will just go under, and a bunch of Chinese will be out of work.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Jake73]

Using incite rather than insight could work ;P

Argh. Hate it when I do that in posts. I also didn't use the possessive form for "business's". Double-argh.

Seriously though, capitalism was never predicated around petitions. If you want "pure capitalism" to work, then the response is to not buy Apple products. ...

Secondly, by focussing on Apple you're giving a free-pass to all the other tech companies who are using the exact same supplier. If you boycott Apple, just to be some other products produced by the exact same factory, you're applying absolutely zero pressure to that factory.

I mostly agree. But the petition is a form of action. It gathers support for the concept and puts Apple on notice. Some folks will choose to boycott others won't. But it sends a message to management, forces consideration and maybe a response, and just plain gets the word out to other customers.

Sure, Foxconn is enormous and has other customers. But that doesn't mean Apple doesn't have a tremendous effect on their business practices. Apple may be the punching bag, but you can bet the other Foxconn customers are taking notice and probably applying pressure, too -- just quietly enough that they don't capture the eye and ire of the customers.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[izomiac]

That's what I was referring to in my third sentence. Apple likes worker dorms and such. Americans have moved pass that stage and look upon it with distain. It affords more flexibility but is highly exploitive.

As for Chinese being out of work, the sad reality is that they prefer these conditions to other factories and far prefer it to farming. OTOH, by raising awareness and making exploitive factories less profitable, perhaps we can change conditions in China for the better. That's likely too optimistic, but almost anything is better than supporting it.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[EdIII]

Not so much manufacturing know-how. We are quickly losing those skills because we don't manufacturer a lot of products domestically and those workers are retiring and dying off. New blood is not coming in and learning.

As for research, yes that is IP. All the more concerning with the recent high level attacks on the Military Industrial Complex by what, I am certain, is the Chinese government.

Even that is being harmed by Brain Drain. We are teaching people over here, but they leave and don't want to stay. Why would they if the opportunities are better in another country?

I know I am being attacked as a Protectionist and ignorant of economics, but one thing I am not is blind. We spend only 2.4% on our infrastructure, import nearly everything, have a progressively worse educational system, an ever widening gap between rich and poor, copyright laws squashing innovation and raising barrier to entry, etc.

If we don't start doing some stuff for ourselves again, even if that needs to be forced (to level the playing field by removing the option for all corporations at the same time), we won't know how to do it anymore. You can't just pick that up like riding a bicycle. It will take years of training people, learning curves, etc.

What happens when we crash and don't have the money to pay other countries for the stuff we need that we can't produce anymore? Not want, but actually need?

People can talk economics all they want. That is justification for keeping the status quo. Ultimately we are being harmed by letting everything be outsourced.

It might be a little bit different if we had the number one educational system in the entire world and our average level of education was so damned high that Americans were in incredible demand worldwide for their prowess. Then we would have some value. Right now our value is how well we can sit on our asses eating Cheetos and watching NASCAR.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Reservoir Penguin]

Read the linked NYT article. It's not about saving on labour costs anymore, the whole industrial infrastructure, at least anything capable of assembling hundreds of millions of gadgets is overseas already. First assembly plants moved, then component manufacturers moved next to them to avoid shipping cots and delays. If you had an outburst of compassion now, you would not find a factory capable of assembling 120 million iphones a month in the United States.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Thanks for the confirmation. No need for the many words.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[stephanruby]

We'll get any meaningful answers if all we have are rumors and unsubstantiated aspersions!

Fine, take a look at this article from Reuters with lots of direct attributions.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[toriver]

It's not "exploitive" as much as it's convenient compared to having to hunt for a place to live, knowing you will only spend a limited time there. Do you also attack American universities for having dorms instead of making students try their luck in the housing market?

That American workers would be left to look for their own place to live and probably commute long distances is one of the reasons you cannot move this scale of production back to America. That, and that you would need not only to move the assembly plants, but also the component manufacturing since that is often done in even worse conditions than at Foxconn.

By supporting Foxconn you are supporting the less exploitive factories. But to hope that China will adopt the "luxurious" working conditions in the West is as futile as hoping the U.S. will adopt the social-democratic health care of Scandinavia...

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[Graff]

Fine, take a look at this article from Reuters with lots of direct attributions.

Perfect! A well-known, proven, and respected news agency. A properly-written journalistic article. They obviously did some research and contacted related parties for quotes and information. That's not some rumor-flinging blog post, that's journalism.

Of course there isn't any mention of the man being beaten. I wonder if that was just a rumor after all? Now maybe it's all part of a conspiracy or something and the guy really was beaten. However, I can't make a judgement because I don't have any facts one way or the other and I don't make judgements without at least the ghost of a factual basis.

Otherwise I might as well just believe everything I read in print, right? The government is infinitely wise and kind because some blog said so? I should give my money to a preacher because there's a nice web site with kind words? I should attack my neighbor because this leaflet says he's not one of us?

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[QuasiSteve]

This is of course also very true. Apple has its share of 'haters' similar to, say, SONY or Microsoft around Slashdot. Apple is a company some people love to hate - some out of more rational concerns than others (the majority), and that is bound to spill into the matter at hand.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Why Americans think that living in pest infected expensive sleeper cells 2 hours commute from work away translates to freedom, while living in an comfortable dorm room for free is slavery is another thing that escapes me.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[izomiac]

Umm... since when are comfort and freedom the same thing? Freedom is picking where you live and not being awoken in the middle of the night by your boss to do an extra shift. Comfort and security are the most common promises made by those seeking to take one's freedoms.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Umm... since when are comfort and freedom the same thing?

Funny, I never claimed that. Coincidentally, your incoherent ramblings bring me one step closer to the actual answer to my question.

Re:Apple and Foxconn

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Yes, they outsource to everybody, but Apple is the biggest by far. If Dell told the Fox Con to clean up their act, Dell would be laughed out of the building.

You are aware that Dell is one of Foxconn's oldest customers? Even before Foxconn was named Foxconn? Dell could have told Foxconn to clean up their act 20 years ago. If they had, we wouldn't even have this discussion.

Apple gets singled out

[alvinrod]

Apple gets singled out a lot now, not because there's some new Apple bashing trend, but merely because they're now the largest and one of the most influential tech company on the planet. If this story were written in the 90's, the headline would be changed to work in Microsoft somehow. It's mostly just an attention grabbing mechanism as Foxconn alone doesn't have that kind of name recognition, but pretty much everyone is aware of Apple. Also, even if people despise the company, they might be interested in an article that makes it seems as though Apple's in trouble.

Re:Apple gets singled out

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has billions of dollars. Why don't they throw a few bucks at their employees/contractors? Are they cheap? Are they mean?

Who would buy stuff from a cheap, mean company?

Re:Apple gets singled out

[rtb61]

More importantly if Apple really believe in their products why aren't they making them themselves. Why are they relying upon 'disposable' manufacturing services, does Apple believe it's products are crappy and the need to be able to abandon them at the drop of a hat if the iFad collapses.

Let's see some commitment from Apple and manufacture of their devices where they are bought not where they can not be afforded as they represent around a year's salary at that location.

Re:Apple gets singled out

[Macgrrl]

To be fair, the Apple bashing trend isn't new. I remember the early '90s as a time of spirited Apple bashing. It was a fairly well established meme even then.

Re:Apple gets singled out

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

I remember. I had a friend in high school whose favorite phrase was "really? It just works on a Mac!" We all wanted to flick him on the back of the head. That might have happened, too, if he hadn't gone and gotten a hot girlfriend while we were busy trying to figure out how not to be Bud Bundy.

I don't give a shit about the bashing. I'm just sick of the posing. "Oh, well, Apple should be the ones to fix this because some guy with a fashionable haircut scoffed at my phone."

Meanwhile there was a story about how Foxconn workers that assemble XBOX 360's threatened a mass suicide if conditions didn't improve. This story did not make it to Slashdot. If it had, then not only would the problem there get more air-time, but hey we could give Microsoft a black eye too, right? Nah, smartphone OS's are fashionable right now.

Apple fans are obnoxious people, that doesn't excuse Foxconn or even China for things working that way.

Re:Apple gets singled out

[toolo]

It was a non story. They were probably being moved to the Apple line and were pissed :-)

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/microsoft-foxconn-say-dispute-in-china-resolved-2012-01-11.

The software giant said in a statement that the protest erupted over "staffing assignments and transfer policies, not working conditions" at the facility, where Foxconn reportedly manufactures the Xbox game console. Redmond, Washington-based Microsoft said workers at the plant manufactured hardware products but didn't specify which ones.

In a separate statement, Foxconn said about 150 workers staged a protest after the company announced all workers in their business unit were being transferred to another unit within the Wuhan manufacturing campus. Foxconn described the change as "a shift in production lines."

Re:Apple gets singled out

[bryan1945]

Because they are in the business to make money, not to push some political/social policy.

Re:Apple gets singled out

[Bert64]

And therein lies the problem with society today... Businesses are selfish and short sighted.
If every business works hard to improve efficiency, cut back on expensive staff and replace them with robots, outsource labour intensive activities to cheaper countries etc...
The end result, is huge unemployment in the home country of that business, so then who buys your products? Those people in the country you outsource cheap labour to can't afford to either.
Short term profit gains, leading to long term economic collapse.

Re:Apple gets singled out

[toriver]

Apple did manufacture their machines back home in America until a) the demand started to exceed capacity and capacity could not be ramped up due to regulations, labor shortages etc. and b) the Mac prices became twice those of PCs because all the competing PC manufacturers had moved manufacturing to Asia.

To move manufacturing from low-cost countries to the high-cost market countries themselves is a losing proposition.

Re:Apple gets singled out

[Reservoir Penguin]

Oh, the days of trolling mac.advocacy newsgroups, thanks for reminding me.

Re:Apple gets singled out

[Reservoir Penguin]

Because it's not possible anymore. The factories, logistics infrastructure, component manufacturers are all in Asia.

Re:Apple gets singled out

[rtb61]

Crazy thinking. Obviously how can the factories, logistics infrastructure, component manufacturers be in Asia if at one stage they were not in Asia? By you cave man thinking, if not there already it can never be there, ugh, cave is safe stay in cave.

Component assembly can be done anywhere in the world. Obviously when done in more labour balanced countries a higher degree of automation exists. Next up component manufacture, if you do not create the balanced economic environment for componenet assembly to exist, well, your screwed.

To many countries have been taken over by the financial sector to content to export debt and debt imports to cripple the remaining economic sectors, to cripple labour rights and turn non-financial nepotistic employment into true wage slaves, working in poverty.

Re:Apple gets singled out

[Reservoir Penguin]

It started many years ago *originally* due to lower labour costs and more lax regulations in certain Asian countries, at that point it could have been possible to reverse the trend had tariffs on such countries been introduced. The man point of my reply that now labour costs are no longer the main reason production is outsourced to China. Labour costs (and standard of living in China) have risen dramatically in the last 20+ years since the start of new economic policy. Another reason that Asia is now home to major electronics companies such as Samsung, HTC, and other numerous Chinese and Taiwanese companies. Such situation did not exist 30 years ago and is direct consequence of globalization, technology and skill transfer. It only makes sense for Apple and others to benefit from existing large-scale manufacturing hubs in Asia.

Re:Apple gets singled out

[rtb61]

"It only makes 'GREED" for Apple and others to benefit from existing large-scale manufacturing hubs in Asia." There you go fixed it for you ;D.

Moving Anyways

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple said a while ago they are moving production to Brazil. The hackers must not read the news.

Re:Moving Anyways

[Microlith]

They aren't moving, they are simply putting factories in Brazil to avoid the high tariffs that come from a nation that protects its labor force.

The name SwaggSec alone raises questions

[Anonymous Coward]

Swag is a word for furries and bronies. This is the furry, brony, 604% more pretentious version of Lulzsec.

Economically Viable

[Anonymous Coward]

it's simply not economically viable to manufacture here in the States.

'Falling Down' when your not economically viable

How many protestors?

[thestudio_bob]

How many protestors?

Oh yeah, only 12, and only at the Grand Central Terminal. Not sure about where else in the world this "protest" was going on, but would love to hear some stats on the crowds.

Re:How many protestors?

[laffer1]

Hack the Planet!

Foxconn's policies shaped by China, not Apple!

[Anonymous Coward]

They hit Foxconn. Apple has no place in this headline or story.

FYI Foxconn is a massive company that supplies:

Acer Inc. (Taiwan)[27]
Amazon.com (United States)[28]
Apple Inc. (United States)[29]
ASRock (Taiwan)[citation needed]
Asus (Taiwan)[citation needed]
Barnes & Noble (United States)[citation needed]
Cisco (United States)[30]
Dell (United States)[31]
EVGA Corporation (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)[32]
Intel (United States)[33]
IBM (United States)[citation needed]
Lenovo (China)[citation needed]
Microsoft (United States)[34]
MSI (Taiwan)[citation needed]
Motorola (United States)[31]
Netgear (United States)[citation needed]
Nintendo (Japan)[35]
Nokia (Finland)[29]
Panasonic (Japan)[citation needed]
Samsung (South Korea)[36]
Sharp (Japan)[citation needed]
Sony (Japan)[37]
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)[38]
Vizio (USA)

Complaining to Apple (or any other company on that list), which are all corporations that are basically legally obligated to seek maximum profit, about Foxconn's labor policies, which are fully in compliance with China's labor regulations, is an absolute waste of time. Governments control labor conditions through labor laws and regulations. Apple does not. You would think this is obvious, but I suppose I underestimate the power of "Apple" in headlines drawing pageviews and ad revenue.

Re:Foxconn's policies shaped by China, not Apple!

[Anonymous Coward]

You're forgetting that this is Slashdot, and nothing gets in the way of a good old fashioned Apple bashing. Never mind that the Samsung's phone are made by Foxconn too, but they run Slashdot's darling Android, so we won't mention them.

Re:Foxconn's policies shaped by China, not Apple!

[avandesande]

No other company makes such obscene profits from this trade with Foxconn, so it is natural for people to hold them most accountable.

Not better: Influential.

[fyngyrz]

They're not taking heat for doing better. They're taking heat because they're the most influential. Hence, they are the natural vector if one wishes to impose one's will upon a client company of theirs.

Quite aside from that, there are a lot of ways this can go wrong: I hope no one actually thinks that because these people are being compensated in a particular manner, that they don't deserve to have those jobs. Because that is a real potential of complaining about sweatshops, etc... instead of a few bucks in their pockets, the workers can end up outside a shuttered business, jobless, hungry and worse.

It's always dicey when the citizens of one country decide they want to "do something" about working conditions in another country. It's never a matter of "just fixing things." There are economic balances at work, and no matter how good one's intentions might be (I should qualify that as by one's own lights), odds are good that damage will be taken by the very people who are the target of the "help."

Dealing With Bullies 101.

[PeanutButterBreath]

Not only is it completely ineffective to hand a signed petitions to some Apple store manager in an attempt to influence the working conditions of an internationally traded public company in China, it also gives a pass to every other computer company who uses Foxconn.

You pick the biggest, baddest of the bunch and sucker punch him. Is it sporting? No. Does it get results? Maybe, maybe not. But it sure feels good.

People who love Apple products are clearly willing to pay a premium. Apple's labor costs are moot in every respect except their own over-stuffed bank accounts. Apple doesn't yet believe that the number of additional units they might sell by foreswearing cheap labor will make up for the few extra dollars they will spend. Picking on them (even unfairly -- or even better unfairly) disrupts this calculation. Enough negative publicity can motivate them to make a change.

And if it Apple changes, the others will fall in line. Ain't it great to back an innovator?

Apple Iphone 4 Schematics

[Anonymous Coward]

If anyone's interested, the iPhone 4 schematics are available online (unrelated to this incident): http://insidetronics.blogspot.com/2011/11/iphone-4-schematics.html

9to5Mac "verified" this?

[afabbro]

9to5mac.com says: "We were able to verify these logins worked on more than one Foxconn server"

So, did they "verify" this by logging in with these stolen accounts? Apparently so. I personally don't care, but I have to think they've opened themselves up to some legal unpleasantness...

If, for example, someone handed me a piece of paper with various logins and passwords to employee accounts at $BIG_COMPANY, I don't think it would be legal to login to those accounts. Just knowing someone's password doesn't mean you are granted legitimate access.

Where are these kids?

[toolo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_Sweatshops

Not sure why tech gets a free pass here.

Re:Where are these kids?

[pankkake]

And Nike, like Apple, definitely has enough sales margin to treat their workers better.

But then there's the other reason Apple is targeted: page views.

Re:Where are these kids?

[toriver]

Workers get treated better when the workers own the factory. Vote Communist Party in 2012!

Obligatory

[El_Oscuro]

xkcd

Why hack

[russotto]

OK, they got a bunch of Foxconn passwords? What was the point? I could see if Foxconn was a computer security company; then you'd be making ballmers out of them. I could see if you found some sort of dirt on them by hacking in, but pretty much all the dirty stuff they do is well known. So you're just proving their security isn't great?

Lesser evil is still evil, so start w/ good cond's

[sethstorm]

Those Foxconn employees chose to work there because, to them, it's much better than working in the alternative business, namely, very dirty and very poor 4th world level farming. If big companies all around started refusing to work with Foxconn, it'd shrink, laying all that people off, back to the farms, to die of diseases they currently don't. So, even if the current situation is currently "bad" (from our perspective), the alternative is worse.

That's like saying that your slavemaster beats you less than someone else's. You're still a slave, you're still getting beaten, and the only difference is that you get shiny golden shackles, get beaten with precision instruments, or get executed in some van if you think about raising freedom.

The better idea is to start with good conditions in the first place. Then make sure those good conditions become a common practice. That's how you skip the evils of slavery. What China is figuring out is how to keep the slavery going so that your situation never happens; so far, they've been successful at making sure economic development doesn't result in freedoms for those that are not businesses. The totalitarian model that China gives freedom for businesses, but none for workers - for giving workers the requisite freedom would threaten business efficiency.

Just my opinion

[abednegoyulo]

and posted the stolen data to The Pirate Bay website

FWIW, you can't put the actual on TPB. You can only create a torrent file of the actual data and put that torrent file on TPB and the actual data resides on the seeders/leechers. I was surprisinged that it came from securityweek. These type of (inaccurate) news are the news that no-idea-goverment-officials base their decisions.

Obligatoy xkcd

Re:Just my opinion

[abednegoyulo]

Interesting procedure on hitting the goal but in this particular case they didn't do that .

Headline Change Please

[Windows Breaker G4]

That headline should read Hackers Hit Everyone's Supplier, Foxconn.

I wonder what % of their business even comes from Apple? I am not saying Apple shouldn't be pushing to make things better they should. But, Apple is hardly the only person that uses Foxconn, the way you see this stuff reported you would swear Foxconn only works for Apple

Re:Headline Change Please

[Megane]

If only we could moderate article headlines and summaries as "-1, Flamebait".

Re:Headline Change Please

[toriver]

This is Slashdot. They all have a moderation of Clickbait and have had ever since the site became an ad server.

Re:That didn't take long

[Macgrrl]

They're the largest Foxconn customer, and therefore have the most power to improve things.

Are they actually Foxconn's lagest customer, or simply their most visible? I would have though Dell would have been bigger given the size of it's corporate market. Do you have any stats?

It's all meaningless

[Brannon]

the vector to change runs through petitioning the governments (US or China) to enact legislation. Apple isn't breaking any laws and they aren't [arguably] doing anything unethical--which is why most people don't care.

Most people on Slashdot didn't care about "worker conditions" when Dell was the biggest computer company in the world using third world labor--but now they care because they hate Apple because Apple won't let them compile the Linux kernel or run SETI on an iPhone. Just like most people on Slashdot couldn't care less that their beloved Android phone is made in the same or worse factories as iPhones.

Were you born stupid? or did it take practice?

[Brannon]

Governments set labor and trade policies. Public companies are obligated (by law) to maximize profit. Boycotts about this kind of thing never work--if they did then Nike wouldn't sell so many shoes.

Go vote for some better laws. Blaming Apple misses the point, misses the root of the problem, and above all showcases what an idiot you are.

Re:Were you born stupid? or did it take practice?

[rec9140]

"Public companies are obligated (by law) to maximize profit. "

Cite CFR, please.

Re:Were you born stupid? or did it take practice?

[PeanutButterBreath]

Public companies are obligated (by law) to maximize profit.

A combination of legal and logical responsibilities motivates public companies to maximize shareholder value. "Shareholder value" is not rigidly synonymous with "profit". Even if it was, if Apple loses sufficient sales due to poor publicity, they must change their ways or be in violation of your "law".

It's not the wages silly

[Builder]

Every time one of these stories come up, people ask why the products aren't made in the US. A discussion then gets bogged down in staffing and labour cost issues. But these are just one part of the cost of running a factory.

Because most of the USA and Europe have strict laws about manufacturing conditions (circulation, legislation about working in areas with harmful vapours, waste disposal, etc.) before you put a single staff member on the factory floor, your costs in these regions are MUCH higher.

If you can get away with dumping your waste into the local river, of course you're going to be cheaper than someone who has to dispose of it properly. If you can get away with making people breath in fumes from solder and other fixing agents instead of properly ventilating your work area and extracting these harmful vapours, of course you're going to be cheaper.

Re:Engraved in the back of an iPad:

[StripedCow]

... and made many lawyers filthy rich.

Re:Apple Steve Jobs genius

[AssholeMcGee]

Apple could and should create its own supplier the fact that they do not, and the fact they use cheap labor to make a profit, if you add to the fact they knew about how the Chinese Government and there I do not give a fuck attitude towards labor jobs, how can anyone support the fact they are still there. They used PR to act like they care. I understand a lot of it is media hype but you cannot ignore the statements Apple has made using labor outside of the US to propel itself into a communist monopoly... Steve Jobs was an ass, I still cannot believe how everyone bows to there knees over this guy????? Apple was a monopoly long before it was popular, and continues to be.. These companies are the disintegration of the patent system..... IE Hey I got an idea for a text form patent that about 15 other companies have physically created.. Yes the companies are not to bright for not patenting it before, but Apple is sucking the dicks of government officials through out the world to get a patent before the companies that created the technology can. If you know of the Patent System it takes years to get an approved Patent. Apple seems to get one for shitting in there hand and then plating it gold. (not very original and has been thought of by numerous people, those same people even tried to patent such an idea) but somehow only Apple got a patent.. Sorry for the overkill view of this company, but there are jokers!!! They knew what they were doing and the contracting companies they got involved with but did it anyway "business as usual"..... Just admit to it, and show your the WORM in the Apple....

NEWSFLASH: Chinese reporters are beaten

[MasaMuneCyrus]

Beating/killing reporters that are making successful companies or politicians look bad is the standard operating procedure in China. It doesn't just happen sometimes, it happens all the time. If you are arguing that it doesn't happen, or is just random, isolated incidents, it shows that you are completely ignorant of how bad the situation is in China. Go ask any Hong Konger how frequently Hong Kong reporters or beaten. Hell, just go ask any Chinese person how frequently Mainland reporters are beaten, tortured, or killed. Everybody knows it happens like every American knows that corporations bribe our politicians frequently. A quick Google search comes up with 8.8 million results for "China reporter beaten." China is not at the bottom of the Press Freedom Index for nothing. Chinese society and the common man does not like it, but there is little they can do about it but document it on social networks.

Re:NEWSFLASH: Chinese reporters are beaten

[Graff]

Beating/killing reporters that are making successful companies or politicians look bad is the standard operating procedure in China. It doesn't just happen sometimes, it happens all the time. If you are arguing that it doesn't happen, or is just random, isolated incidents, it shows that you are completely ignorant of how bad the situation is in China.

I'm not arguing that. Nothing that I wrote even remotely implies that I am arguing that.

I'm arguing that blogs and rumors are not substitutes for proper reporting practices. Yes, the environment might be hostile towards proper reporting practices but that doesn't change the concept that we can't properly judge issues and stories in the absence of verifiable information.

So perhaps the more dire issue is to fix the system that prevents the investigation and reporting of the facts, THEN go after the issues that the facts highlight. And no, I don't have a good grasp on how to do that other than for the people in the nation to strongly demand it and, if necessary, lay down their lives for it. Just as we did in the USA a couple of hundred years ago and other people in other nations have done throughout history.

Re:That didn't take long

[toriver]

At least they are doing their part, but not enough to satisfy some socialist "spread the wealth around" Apple-haters.

Foxconn have thousands lining up for their job openings every day, simply because working there beats working most other places in China. Are you going to improve the working conditions for everyone in China, or is working at Foxconn going to be even more of a dream job than before?

Re:Lesser evil is still evil, so start w/ good con

[toriver]

Here's how USA gets to decide China's labor politics: Invade and occupy the country, installing some puppet government that... oh wait, U.S. has tried that before and in those countries the conditions for people did not improve one bit...

If this succeeds ....

[rogerz]

the result will be fewer opportunities for the already oppressed (by their government) people of China. If forced to pay more more (in either salary or working conditions) than people are voluntarily willing to accept for their labor, Foxconn will not eat the cost, but will reduce the supply of jobs (or will have it reduced when their contracts become limited by increased costs). As such, the more than 500 million people in rural China living on less than $1/day will be more likely to remain that way.

To the whiners who profess: "but we don't want _that_ outcome, we want just as many more expensive jobs": too bad, the world does not work according to your fantasies. To those that instead say: "I'd rather they not have any job, than these horrible jobs", you can wish that, but you can't escape the consequences of what it really means for these people to not have any job. And, to both of these groups, I will love to see their reaction when the cost of their electronic devices goes up (or doesn't go down as fast as it would have). Somehow, I doubt they will be lauding Apple for this inevitable consequence of a reduced/more-expensive labor supply.

I remember activists had a cause

[jetole]

This is getting ridiculous. I remember back in the day where activists actually stood for legitimate principals and hackers were more concerned with security and knowledge then backing the latest BS hippy political agenda. Ok. I'm sure that still happens but this as well as a lot of things making the news recently isn't a great example. A bunch of pathetic wannabe activists protesting apple for the treatment of employees at Foxconn. WTF is this supposed to mean? Employees at Foxconn are employees at Foxconn. They don't get paid by Apple because they don't work for Apple. How in the hell should Apple be responsible for how a third party treats it's employees? Apple is a customer of Foxconn and that's it. I'm not saying the employee conditions at Foxconn shouldn't be questioned but why aren't other Foxconn customers like Cisco and Acer being held equally responsible by the activists. No Cisco and Acer shouldn't be held responsible either but neither should Apple. If anyone should be held responsible it should be Foxconn and if you feel that for some reason you want to hold some higher party responsible for a lower parties actions then next on the list would be the Taiwanese government for allowing these working conditions but even still how about holding the employees responsible among all else because they continue to work there despite the conditions. Foxconn isn't the only electronics manufacturer in Taiwan and don't quote me but rumor has it there may be a bunch there (this would be the point where I make really wide eyes, raise my eyebrows, have my lips parted without my mouth gaping open and shake my head at you like you're an idiot). OMG WTF RLY??? You're saying people can work for other electronics manufacturers in Taiwan besides Foxconn? Why yes, I most certainly am. Just about everything with an integrated circuit in North America and probably the rest of the world has very high probability of coming from one of the many many many electronics companies in Taiwan so if employees at Foxconn really did feel that abused because of where they worked then they would apply at one of the hundreds of other companies in Taiwan that do the exact same thing. Why don't you all grow up and find something more reasonable to protest and hack?

Yeah, well, obviously they are teetering on the

[Brannon]

edge of bankruptcy due to all this loud complaining about working conditions in China--so I guess you win the argument.

What about HK SAR?

[sethstorm]

The British did it to Hong Kong and things are better than China.