Apple-Approved Fair Labor Inspections Begin At Foxconn

redletterdave writes "Apple announced on Monday that the Fair Labor Association has begun inspecting Foxconn's Chinese factories, upon Apple's request. Apple said that Auret van Heerden, the president of the FLA, is leading a group of labor rights experts in the first round of inspections at the sprawling plant in Shenzhen, China, more informally known as 'Foxconn City.' The FLA's independent assessment — completely supplementary to Apple's own auditing practices — will involve interviewing thousands of Foxconn employees about the working and living conditions, including working hours, compensation, managerial issues, and health and safety conditions. Foxconn has 'pledged full cooperation with the FLA,' and will reportedly allow unrestricted access to all of their operations. The investigative team will report their findings in early March on the FLA's website. Apple's other suppliers, including Quanta and Pegatron, will be inspected later this spring. By the time summer rolls around, the FLA hopes to have covered 90 percent of facilities where Apple products are built and assembled."

Comments

corporate responsibility

[noh8rz2]

this is another area in which apple is leading all electronics companies in corporate responsibilities. All electronics are made in asian factories, but apple is the only company with balls to open the doors to visitors. Let's see the same for whatever droid / tab factories.

Re:corporate responsibility

[spyder-implee]

If apple is a leader in worker exploitation (and I'm not saying they are), they should also lead in cleaning it up. At any rate, which ever way the fanboys or haters spin this, I'm just stoked & hopeful that it will raise the quality of working conditions for the employees at Foxconn.

Re:corporate responsibility

[noh8rz2]

citations? how are apple factories any worse than any other factories? or keep your falsehoods to yourself.

Re:corporate responsibility

[EdIII]

You're not *that* naive are you?

Maybe you have not been to a Chinese factory (I have), bu if you have you would know that this is just lip service. Apple is not opening the company doors either. All they did was hire a 3rd party to investigate. Foxconn agreed. That's it.

Do you really think with all the media attention that Foxconn would say no? Of course not. They can't.

However, they are Chinese. Trust me. The word is going around right now that they better look like some cheerful happy mother fuckers in front of the western investigators or there will be some real consequences. Not the standard ones, but some serious ones.

Way too much on the line. Way too much. How many officials must be involved in greasing up that company's operations who knows.

Corporate responsibilities? *snicker*

You are just *too* cute. I wish I could go back in time where all this experience I have did not result in the cynicism I have developed.

There are no responsible corporations. Just corporations doing the minimum to not get caught, and corporations that have not been caught yet.

Every single device out there, regardless of which fanboi club it caters to, is made by manufacturing that is related to an awful lot of human misery. Unless you can say with 100% certainty that it is made in a developed Western country like the US, or some place in the EU, you can rest assured there was poor pay and poor working conditions. That's just life.

It's not limited to devices either. Just about every product made in China is in factories with poor working conditions compared to the US and the EU. It would have to be. Otherwise it would be too expensive and it would just be made in some hell hole in another country.

Sorry to ruin the illusion for you, but it's all pain and misery, all the way down.

Re:corporate responsibility

[noh8rz2]

unhappy workers? iPhone factory girl proves you wrong. That's a 1000watt smile that can't lie. http://www.2dayblog.com/images/2008/august/iphone_factory_girl_1.jpg

Re:corporate responsibility

[mrxak]

I don't know why people keep talking about suicides at Foxconn factories, since the population of China has a higher suicide rate than the population of Foxconn workers in China.

Foxconn employment correlates to less suicides, not more. You know what that means? I know you refuse to believe it because for some reason you've decided to have an irrational hatred for everything Apple, but Foxconn saves lives.

Suicide is not something to be happy about, but let's be honest, it's just one more cause of death in the world. Some people kill themselves, and always will. There are far more preventable causes of death in the world, like say, starvation. How many Foxconn workers starve to death? How many of them would starve to death if they didn't have a job? Again, employment in a factory is better than unemployment.

People freak out over suicide numbers at Foxconn facilities because they don't realize just how large these places are. These are massive, massive factories, and there are going to be a lot of deaths from a lot of different causes in any population of that size anywhere no matter what. What is important to look at is not absolute quantities, but percentages, and compare those to statistics for China as a whole.

People target Apple because Apple is a big popular company doing a lot of business right now, but just about every major tech company you can name has their stuff made at Foxconn, or a similar company in China. This isn't some Apple problem, and yes, the reality is Apple is doing more than most of those other companies to identify and fix problems. Perhaps you should save your moral outrage for those big tech companies that are silent on these issues, or even better, the factories that have higher death rates than China's population as a whole (if there even are any).

Re:corporate responsibility

[mrxak]

These workers know their jobs suck, and they would gladly trade places with any western factory worker with their massive pay, massive pension, tons of benefits, and far higher standard of living.

Of course, that same western factory worker's pay, benefits, and conditions is why it's so expensive to make anything here. Western standard of living and OSHA is why all the jobs are going overseas, because nobody here is willing to take a pay cut to keep their job.

But the Chinese workers in these factories know something that some people here seem to forget, and that's a job is better than no job. These Chinese workers are working long hours in tough conditions because they are making pretty good money compared to their other options. They're working hard and making enough money to give their children a better life, so that their children, and their children's children, can rise up, get a good education, get better jobs, and live the Chinese Dream. When Foxconn expands their factories, they have more people lining up to get a job than people here line up to buy the latest iPad. It's not because they've been tricked, it's because poverty in China sucks a lot worse than factory conditions. They simply have no better options.

We in the west should be glad Chinese workers are making pennies a day to produce our products, because as unemployment falls in China, Chinese living standards and working conditions will improve, just as the industrial revolution in western countries created the middle class, and created a living standard that's the envy of everyone in China. Someday, China will be losing jobs to other countries, because their pay, benefits, and conditions have improved to our standards, and they need to make all of their goods cheaply someplace else. It will not be because of magic, it will be because western tech companies created millions of jobs for Foxconn workers to do.

Re:corporate responsibility

[theweatherelectric]

Ambrose Bierce said it best: "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility."

Re:corporate responsibility

[EdIII]

You are such a holier than though butthead you know? Every post you are so abusive and abrasive and contribute nothing to the proceedings except nastiness.

Maybe I don't want to talk about what I saw? You think of that? Maybe I don't have anything to do with that business at this point precisely because of what I saw. Foxconn workers have it good compared to what I saw. I would be surprised if the people I saw were still healthy and alive today.

What would a first hand account tell you anymore than what you already know? Every one knows conditions are hell in most factories in China.

Do what better?

I try to purchase products that have as little to do with China as possible, which is all you can do. Anytime I propose some real changes in trade and foreign policy I get accused of being an isolationist, a protectionist, "just not getting it" because I don't understand Capitalism and economics.

I'm already doing what I can.

Take your acerbic bullshit elsewhere please.

Re:corporate responsibility

[metacell]

I don't know why people keep talking about suicides at Foxconn factories, since the population of China has a higher suicide rate than the population of Foxconn workers in China.

True, but misleading, since the numbers for Foxconn only includes suicides in the workplace, while the national average includes all suicides.

In China, it only counts as a work-related death if it occurs in the workplace. I.e, for your family to get compensation, you need to take your life at work.

Even if people take their life at work for financial reasons, though, it still shows how desperate they are.

Re:corporate responsibility

[mrxak]

Again, this is a misunderstanding of Foxconn. These are company towns. Foxconn employees kill themselves at the workplace, because they're living in Foxconn dormitories. If you work, eat, sleep, and hang out on company property, and decide to kill yourself, you're going to do it on company property.

Re:corporate responsibility

[mrxak]

I'm not suggesting suicidal workers are a good thing, but way to completely distort what I said. I'm saying quite the opposite, that less suicidal workers is better than more suicidal workers. I am not so naive as to think that suicide rates will ever be zero, at Foxconn, in China, or anywhere else humans work or live.

I'm simply saying that workers sometimes commit suicide, no matter where they are or who they work for. I'm also saying that Foxconn has a lower suicide rate than the rest of China, which means the opposite of what you and people like you try to imply, that Foxconn drives their workers to kill themselves with awful conditions. Foxconn does not cause suicide, Foxconn causes a reduction in suicide. This is a mathematical fact, and to argue otherwise shows a willful ignorance and irrational bias.

You're simply an anti-Apple troll.

Re:corporate responsibility

[Sneeka2]

So what would you like be done? Give all those workers a huge benefits package, insurance, pension, 36 hour weeks, paid-for kindergarten places for their kids, christmas bonuses? Realize that virtually nobody enjoys these kinds of benefits in China at this point! The majority of Chinese go to work their ass off every day in the fields growing food in order to not starve to death. Do you expect Apple to come in and revolutionize the whole country over night? Make the Foxconn workers kings with huge salaries?

Maybe, just maybe, providing an enormous number of jobs with a stable, not bad salary for Chinese standards, even though it's a tough job by western standards, is the best they can do at this point.

Re:corporate responsibility

[LordLimecat]

but apple is the only company with balls to open the doors to visitors. Let's see the same for whatever droid / tab factories.

Normally you dont laud a company for having to deal with the kind of issues Foxconn / Apple are. Its great that theyre working on fixing them, but dont turn this issue into something that they did right to begin with.

I havent heard stories of motorola employees jumping out of the factory due to unlivable conditions, so I think android gets a little more credit here (which is a stupid comparison anyways, since there are many android manufacturers, and the comparison isnt iOS vs Android but Apple vs the other manufacturers).

Re:corporate responsibility

[Winckle]

If only there was some sort of alternative, like reducing profit margins, reducing pay at the top, some sort of redistribution of wealth. What if the workers owned the means of production instead of being exploited for their labour?

Re:corporate responsibility

[devleopard]

You're also naive if you believe that a Samsung or Motorola device is assembled under different conditions.

Re:corporate responsibility

[Forty Two Tenfold]

moving back home would mean 17 hours a day hard labor in the fields. Foxconn is a paid vacation compared to "home" they could go to at any time.

Indeed. Do you know what you have in common with a used diaper or do I have to spell it?

Re:corporate responsibility

[Hal_Porter]

What if the workers owned the means of production instead of being exploited for their labour?

Dude you should totally go to China and tell them your new and original idea. I'm sure they'll love it and love you too! They'll think "How lucky we are some European guy with lots of knowledge and experience of alternative political systems and their downsides has come over to tell us how to run our shit". No doubt they'll make you Great Helmsman and you'll be writing the Five Year Plans and reporting how rice production is up eleventy billion percent and obesity levels have fallen to zero.

Re:corporate responsibility

[u38cg]

would they have a better standard of living if they revolted an executed the current pack of leaders and executives.

They tried that. Twenty million died, which is pretty typical for violent socialist revolution. I don't think risking it happening again is that brilliant an idea.

Name the exploited labour market countries that have risen to first world status, zero.

The UK. The US. France. Germany.

Re:corporate responsibility

[jamstar7]

Your suicide stat is ridiculous. There are 300 million people in the US. I doubt Foxcomm employs more than 2 or 3 million. Any number they pubish is bound to be shaded. Remember, they're living under an information-restricted totolitarian regime there. They're going to paint the best possible picture they can of the 'worker's paradise', just like the Russians did back in the Bad Old Days.

Re:corporate responsibility

[gnasher719]

True, but misleading, since the numbers for Foxconn only includes suicides in the workplace, while the national average includes all suicides.

True, but misleading again. Many, many Foxconn employees live at their workplace. You wouldn't expect a suicidal Foxconn employee to make a long journey to their birth place to commit suicide, would you? And you wouldn't expect someone to try suicide with an overdose of sleeping tablets (most common mode of failed suicide attempts in the USA), when they are in a dormitory, observed by others?

I have no intent of doing anything stupid like that, but if I did, a suicide wouldn't happen at my workplace, because it's not a good place for it. But if I was a Foxconn employee, living in a dormitory at the factory, a factory roof would seem a good choice. (Which is why the put up nets; it doesn't reduce the number of suicide attempts, but the number of successful attempts).

Re:corporate responsibility

[AmiMoJo]

Of course, that same western factory worker's pay, benefits, and conditions is why it's so expensive to make anything here. Western standard of living and OSHA is why all the jobs are going overseas, because nobody here is willing to take a pay cut to keep their job.

It isn't that simple. Labour isn't usually the largest cost, or even a hugely significant one in some factories. Even where it is an issue the extra cost involved in producing a high value item like a powerful smartphone or tablet isn't going to force prices up or make a massive dent in profits. You also have to consider the extra shipping costs, one of the major reasons that large and heavy things like cars tend to be made on the continent they are sold on. Corporations are basically just greedy.

Germany actually manufacturers and exports more than China does. Germany is not a cheap low-wage country. Their products are sometimes a bit more expensive than Chinese ones, but also tend to be better quality. We lost out by engaging in a race to the bottom, lowest possible price combined with lowest possible quality. Well, that and pure greed.

Having said that there is one area that China seems to excel at which is low volume manufacturing. I can get 50 of my products made by hand for a reasonable price there, but western companies don't even seem to be interested. That is changing slowly, mainly due to automation, but low volume seems to be about the one area where wages really do make a big difference. Hardly applies to consumer electronics though. I'd also like to say that not all Chinese stuff is crap either, they make some damn fine products too. They are not idiots, they see that quality at a reasonable price sells and are getting into that market.

Re:corporate responsibility

[Uberbah]

Capitalism is redistribution of wealth - to the top. An economic system where the CEO of Wal-Mart makes many times the average employee is not a problem. A system where the CEO of Wal-Mart makes more in one month than the average employee does in his or her entire lifetime is obscene.

Re:corporate responsibility

[Uberbah]

Of course, that same western factory worker's pay, benefits, and conditions is why it's so expensive to make anything here. Western standard of living and OSHA is why all the jobs are going overseas, because nobody here is willing to take a pay cut to keep their job.

Germany puts the lie to that corporatist bullshit:

How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the U.S. While Paying Its Workers Twice as Much

In 2010, Germany produced more than 5.5 million automobiles; the U.S produced 2.7 million. At the same time, the average auto worker in Germany made $67.14 per hour in salary in benefits; the average one in the U.S. made $33.77 per hour. Yet Germanyâ(TM)s big three car companiesâ"BMW, Daimler (Mercedes-Benz), and Volkswagenâ"are very profitable.

And that's not from some dirty fucking hippie rag like Mother Jones, that's from Forbes.

The problem isn't that American workers aren't competitive, the problem is executive greed.

But we all knew that already. Cheap shipping, cheap third world labor and international communications were all available in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. But we didn't see the gutting of America's manufacturing base until unions were busted, marginal tax rates (91% under Eisenhower) were slashed to less than 30%, and corporatist "free trade" laws were passed that puts Americans in competition with third world labor without giving Americans third world price tags on goods, housing or services.

Re:corporate responsibility

[ArsonSmith]

Everyone likes to tout the 90% tax on salaries over $1million back in the 50s. Of course almost nobody then or even now have/has salaries in that range as they were payed with under valued stock options of which when cashed in were only charged 14% at the time or 10% now.

Re:corporate responsibility

[gnasher719]

explain the anti-suicide nets then? Is that how they cause a reduction in suicide? Because the workers cannot commit suicide at work, so they do it when away so the figures for Foxconn look better?

If you look at statistics in the USA, it turns out that the suicide rate among men is much higher than among women. A closer look shows that the rate of suicide _attempts_ is much higher among women. Women just use methods that work less well, like taking lots of sleeping tablets, while men quite often use violent mens like using a gun, which has a very high "success" rate.

It seems that people at Foxconn have found a method that "works well" - jumping off a high roof. Suicide nets can stop this from working. This may not reduce the number of suicidal people, and the number of suicide _attempts_, but it will force people to use methods that work less well, therefore fewer _successful_ suicide attempts.

And of course there is the fact that suicide may very well be a spontaneous decision that won't be repeated. That person on the roof staring at a net may very well decide that they were very close to making a horrible mistake and seek help. Without a net, the same person might have figured out about half the way down that they made a mistake; too late.

Amazing what one day of crowds can do

[icebike]

First time in forever the crowds outside the Apple store weren't dueling down their shirts over new hardware and Apple runs right out and finds company to shill for it. Amazing.

FLA is essentially the fox watching the hen house if you ask me. The organization is not particularly well though of, being considered by some merely an attention diversion. Even Wiki didn't have much good to say about it. And Non Profit Watch is more than a little skeptical.

The take away is that Apple is very sensitive to bad public image press, especially if it makes it into the New York Times, and bodies are hitting the ground.

But in the background they keep suing android vendors for using hyperlinks on web pages. Because that won't get any one standing outside their windows with placards, and they can lean on the press not to cover it, because its boring technical stuff.

A facade really

[Anonymous Coward]

The metrics of these audits will probably be carefully tailored. Make no mistake, this is not a true audit, it's a carefully choreographed public relations stunt in response to protests to save face.

These auditing services never work.

[Anonymous Coward]

The workers feel it is a setup and if they respond negatively they will lose their job. Workers who do respond negatively usually do so to benefit their own agenda. The only part about it that 'works' is the consumer purchasing products with a 'clear conscience.'

I think I'm getting tired of all news Apple

[bogaboga]

Just last month, it was news about its best ever quarter.

Then just today, news of its stock hitting north of $500.

Again today, some site reporting that Apple's iPad3 will hit us in March.

When Apple finally fades, these pundits will be the ones saying something to the effect: -

..."They could not sustain that 'explosive' growth", or

..."We knew Android was a force to be reckoned with" or

..."With the demise of Steve Jobs Apple then lacked a visionary"...and so much other nonsense...

I say this because Apple has had a number of failed products in the past.

I am just tired of all news Apple. Am I alone?

Worker demands

[Anonymous Coward]

Workers are demanding a second hour of sleep a night. Apple representatives feel that a compromise would be possible that won't severely affect profit margins. Apple's offer of a picture of the company logo instead of an actual apple for dinner was flatly refused by the workers.

Thoughts from someone who lives in China

[nhtshot]

I've resisted posting on these threads because I don't want to start a war. However, I think it's finally time that I spoke up.

Firstly, I live in China, speak Mandarin and Cantonese and build electronics among other things over here.

I think this isn't a bad thing in concept, but everyone needs to get a little perspective on the issue. The educated workers, engineers and the like, are pretty well taken care of. They make middle class (for the region) wages, get weekends off and generally put in a comparable number of productive hours to US engineers.

The factory workers, which are the ones that everyone seems to worry about also have it pretty good. They get company provided housing (no, the housing isn't up to western standards, but it's significantly better then where they grew up, I PROMISE). They also get company provided food (No, it isn't Ruth's Chris, but it isn't bad.. I frequently eat in the factory when I don't want to take the time to go out).

Everyone is trying to apply western working standards to the workers over here. While I think it's great in principle, consideration has to be taken for cultural and lifestyle differences. Most of the people that are working in those factories came from a life of subsistence farming. They are also migrant workers. Their families live back in Henan, Hunan, Dongbei, etc... Most of them grew up in a single concrete room. They're quite lucky if their parents house had a flushable toilet.

Making a thousand or two thousand RMB per month, having a decent bed to sleep in and 3 meals a day is a significant upgrade.

With all of that said, I'm also a firm believer in giving them the opportunity for more. Everybody should have the chance to enjoy western working standards. But, it needs to be done in a patient manner. Expecting Apple to leverage Foxconn to give $10/hr and carpeted apartments to 200,000 workers is way out of proportion. Not only would it be prohibitively expensive, but it would screw up Foxconn's competitiveness.

Remember, Iphones aren't the only thing made in Foxconn city. Hundreds of other electronics manufacturers make things there. If Foxconn doesn't stay competitive in Shenzhen, somebody will open a factory in Vietnam where they don't even have to feed their staff and pretty soon all of those people in SZ that everyone was so worried about will be out of work and back to subsistence farming.

Let me repeat... I'm not opposed to this. A little external influence to help them move up the economic ladder is certainly not a bad thing. Neither are all the good intentions. What is a bad thing is expecting too much to happen too fast. China has advanced at it's own pace QUITE effectively in a single generation. We all need to bear that in mind.

They have a long ways to go, but they've come a HELL OF A LONG WAYS from hole-in-the-ground toilets that don't flush.

I'd say, we should all give Apple and Foxconn some credit for the 200,000 migrant children of farmers that now can feed their families back home and raise their children in better conditions then what they grew up in. Isn't that the "American Dream"? Giving more to your children then you had?

Re:Thoughts from someone who lives in China

[nhtshot]

I wouldn't ever want to demean someones death, but, the suicides at Foxconn were statistically insignificant. Compared to the suicide rate among the general population here, they aren't out of line and are actually an improvement.

Think of a city you know in the US with 200,000 people. I'll wager you every week you can find an obituary in the newspaper for a suicide.

That's a much higher rate then the few at Foxconn city. Perhaps all US cities should have nets as well?

Re:Thoughts from someone who lives in China

[manual_tranny]

I sure appreciate your comments, they provide a much-needed counterpoint to the original article. My post on this subject was similar to yours in one place ---> "Remember, Iphones aren't the only thing made in Foxconn city. Hundreds of other electronics manufacturers make things there. If Foxconn doesn't stay competitive in Shenzhen, somebody will open a factory in Vietnam where they don't even have to feed their staff and pretty soon all of those people in SZ that everyone was so worried about will be out of work and back to subsistence farming."--- I don't understand why Apple products are the only thing on trial here. The people who buy Foxconn products (and similar) are every bit as responsible for the worker's conditions as the people who set up the factory. The only difference is that as consumers we are not responsible for the success or failure of Foxconn as a business. Everyone making the business decisions for Foxconn must compare their costs with regional competition. At a certain point, we have to admit that WE (the US especially) are responsible for creating an economic model that makes factories like Foxconn INEVITABLE. For me, the jury is still out about whether it is better to try and "fix" one factory at a time or if it would be better to take a more Holistic/Systemic approach. We are balancing the "needs" of the poverty stricken Chinese with the "needs" of the lower class US. The most realistic solution is to solve the wealth disparity here in the USA. Our poverty stricken RELY on the labor of the poverty stricken Chinese to scrape by on Walmart clothing and furniture in their basement apartments. At what point will we acknowledge that the disparity of wealth here in the USA is encouraging a wealth disparity throughout the entire 3rd world?

Re:Thoughts from someone who lives in China

[Rakishi]

So things are so good that they had to put up nets to stop people jumping off the buildings for joy?

The Empire State Building also has nets, does that mean all of NYC is a giant sweat shop filled with despair and misery?

For every million people in the US, there are 106 suicides per year.

For every million people in the China, there are 222 suicides per year.

For every million people at Foxcom, there are under 20 suicides per year.

So, in fact, the very low suicide rate at Foxconn is an indication of joy compared not just to China but to the USA as well.

Re:Thoughts from someone who lives in China

[Kenja]

You used large pool rates compared to a specific location. That's not "straight up facts", that's skewed data. And how do you respond to the mass suicide protest this year? I guess because they where fired and forced off the property they dont count. But it still doesn't sound like a happy work force to me.

Re:Thoughts from someone who lives in China

[Rakishi]

You used large pool rates compared to a specific location.

The demographic corresponding to Foxconn workers has, at best, an average suicide rate so baring further data my comparison is generally valid. Foxconn hires more people than live in many cities, at that scale you're gonna get a lot of unhappy people in absolute not matter what the working conditions are.

Granted, I never said Foxconn is a paradise but merely that it's not a hell hole either. Probably a better work environment than the Mexican crop pickers get in the US (and not as health destroying long term).

Mostly I find the focus on suicide rates hilarious because that's one thing that Foxconn can't really be called out for. You'd probably get more suicides if you actually implemented all those Western reforms people want, freedom has a lovely was of causing gluttony, drama and despair. Maybe I just find the western-centric manifest destiny "we're perfect and better in every regard" view of the world so two centuries ago.

Re:Thoughts from someone who lives in China

[gnasher719]

You can skew the number all you want. Facts are facts, and the fact is that the conditions at Foxconn are bad. So bad that this year 150 workers threatened mass suicide in protest. They where all fired and forcibly removed. To me, that does not sound like a content work force.

These workers where threatening mass suicide "at the Apple factory" as was widely reported, because they were in danger of losing their jobs when Microsoft reduced the XBox production. That wasn't a work force unhappy with their jobs. It was a work force unhappy with the prospect of having no job.

And it's worse than doing nothing?

[SuperKendall]

We know Apple has taken some real steps, like bonuses for the FoxConn workers, that lead to the conclusion this is not wholly a sham. So why assume the whole thing is fake, and even if so shouldn't you be attacking companies with equal gusto that can't even be bothered to pretend to inspect anything?

You can disbelieve all you like, but when you are covering for companies doing nothing you come off as more than a bit hypocritical.

And what else have to to say Mr Dell?

[SuperKendall]

You've got to be kidding. Have you had your eyes and ears closed for the last five years?

Only someone who had both wide open would realize you whole post is pretty much entirely slander and lies.

In fact the opposite is true, only Apple has shown they care whatsoever. And whatever you are typing on was made under far worse circumstances.

If you had any ethics at all in regards to foreign factory workers you would buy Apple products when possible in support of the efforts they have made to improve labor conditions.

But you don't really care about the Chinese, do you? - No, you just Hate Apple and want to see them die at any costs, even if it means unemployment for a few hundred thousands chinese workers. Having them starve to death is to your mind an honorable way to support your crusade.

Re:And what else have to to say Mr Dell?

[mrxak]

I agree that these sorts of things are just PR stunts more than anything, and probably wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for the media coverage.

But let's consider the nature of that media coverage, to begin with. It seems that only Apple gets mentioned in Foxconn stories. In some cases, like this story, it makes sense, but most of the negative coverage of Foxconn only ever mentions iPads and iPhones.

These are Foxconn's major clients:
Acer Inc., Amazon.com, Apple, ASRock, Asus, Barnes & Noble, Cisco, Dell, EVGA Corporation, Gateway, Hewlett-Packard, Intel, IBM, Lenovo, Microsoft, MSI, Motorola, Netgear, Nintendo, Nokia, Panasonic, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, Sony Ericsson, Toshiba, Vizio

And yet, only one of those companies appear in every single Foxconn story. Hmm. If people defending Apple here are just Apple shills, what level of bias can we attribute to the negative stories then, in light of the fact Foxconn makes everybody's tech but the stories only paint Apple in bad light?

Again, Apple's just doing what Apple needs to do, for PR. I don't think they're all a bunch of heartless bastards, though, any more than any other company. But the spotlight on Apple's relationship with Foxconn is a bit strange, since every competitor they have that I can think of is on Foxconn's client list.

re: Collateral damage

[chaz373]

While Apple bashing is always fun, let us remember that Apple is not the only FoxConn client. So while you may revel in this negative publicity of APPLE, would you be as thrilled to hear that your Xbox 360, your PS3, your Wii, and your Kindle are also built at those same FoxConn factories? Whatever dirt is uncovered will not only tarnish the fruit company but also plenty of other tech titans from HP to Microsoft. So does your umbrage only extend to Apple Inc? My guess is that you will not be metering your indignation equally.

Re:Excellent news

[nhtshot]

My wife just showed up with lunch and I asked her specifically about this. (she's native born Chinese) Basically, she said that people work there because they can make more money than they can anywhere else.

In theory they could unionize, but what would it get them? Most likely a chance to get fired and replaced with 200,000 other farm kids that are quite happy to take the wages Foxconn is willing to offer.

Unions only work when there is a limited supply of workers. That isn't a problem right now in China. Eventually (10-20 years I estimate) it might be, and then unionizing makes sense. Until then, there's no point.

Can you imagine all those workers going on strike? I would wager they would all be replaced within a week, everything would go back to normal and the western world would never even notice.

Exploitation alert !!

[Taco Cowboy]

My wife just showed up with lunch .... (she's native born Chinese)

You're exploiting your wife from China !!!

Re:shipping jobs overseas...

[pegasustonans]

It's not enough that we ship our jobs overseas....but now we need to make sure that they're good jobs for those who get the jobs. I'm all for protecting workers...but the irony is thick.

It's only ironic if you care about things like nationalism.

I could care less about nationalism, but I do care about healthy working conditions and respect at the workplace.

Why China ?

[Taco Cowboy]

There have been too many of debates in Slashdot and in many other places regarding the sweatshop and shitty working conditions in China.

Most of the debates concentrate on China, and it's communist (some would even use words like "tyrannical to describe the) regime that controls China.

But why China?

Why China becomes the world's factory?

Why so many factories are in China?

Is it because China is / was poor?

If so, Africa was / is also poor.

India too.

Why don't we see similar factories sprung up in the African continent / Indian sub-continent ?

Why?

If we say that China has 1.3 billion people and they can supply so many laborers, well ... India has over 1.2 billion people, and the African continent has 1.1 billion

Again, why not Africa? Why not India? Why China?

Anyone wants to venture an answer?

Re:Why China ?

[jamstar7]

China is relatively stableat this point in time. Africa has been suffering brushfire wars and tribal rebellions for over a century now. It hasn't stopped, as tribe after tribe goes after their neighbors for injuries done generations ago. Ther's not a spot on the African continent that's been war-free for 25 years, not even South Africa.

Re:Hopefully that wouldn't happen to you

[pegasustonans]

Just how low are you guys willing to go to make a point?

Until it makes a difference.

You may say someone is vulgar or 'low' for showing you a picture you don't like.

Maybe you should look at the world we share, and how we share the world, instead?

People don't like looking at pictures of the victims they're responsible for. It's one of the main reasons why victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are so seldom displayed in high school textbooks and museums in the United States.

It's often called unpatriotic to look at victims. I say, we are cowardly to ignore the victims we create.

Evolution of Peaceful Industrial Society

[retroworks]

China, including (Taiwanese) Foxconn, is barreling down the same industrial revolution path as Europe, Japan and USA. There are no doubt some who will see the Apple certification effort cynically, but this is how change starts. The fact that China and Taiwan are working together making money via peaceful trade is worth more than anything. I'm an optimist about the future, not an apologist for the present, but recoiling from poverty is not the same as compassion. All the OEMs manufacturing in China are getting their hands dirty and risking their reputations, but the world is going to be better off than when China was cut off from world trade.

Re: Collateral damage

[sgt scrub]

So does your umbrage only extend to Apple Inc?

No. Just as I expected more than just Nike to investigate their sweatshops, I think all of their customers should pressure Foxconn to do right by their employees.

Re:How about India?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Canada bombing news" gives "About 22,200,000 results (0.26 seconds)".

I'm nearly 40, lived in Canada all my life, only heard about bombing on TV and newspapers half a dozen time.

Re:How about India?

[poity]

There was an segment on NPR a few months back that touched on exactly this question of "why hasn't India experienced the same growth as China". One of the main points brought up was that it is much more difficult in India for the government to seize land for economic development. This was one of the reasons why Indian cities remain badly organized for industry to this day. So part of the answer could lie in the differences between the two countries' priorities on rights vs economy -- China is more willing than India to trade some rights of their citizens for faster economic development. The guest speaker also commented that there has always been calls in India to use the China model of an iron-fisted focus on economic growth, but were always shot down in government debate with the argument that it would mean India abandoning it's founding democratic principles.

What bullshit

[SuperKendall]

Maybe if they were less evangelical in their advertising and PR

How is Apple AT ALL evangelical in advertising? They just show people using the product!

It's Android that displays devices as huge glowing monoliths that solve all the worlds problems with clouds of glowing robots (sorry, androids, even though they are vaguely humanoid at best).

Apple's PR is not even close to evangelical either.

In the end I think that's what makes me think Apple Haters are such twits, because they attribute to Apple behaviors that Apple simply doesn't exhibit. You cannot blame Apple for the acts of some crazy supporters, yet that's exactly what Apple haters do daily.