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Arizona Ponders FCC Decency Standards For the Classroom

einhverfr writes "Eugene Volokh has posted an interesting discussion of a bill that has been introduced in Arizona, which would tie public school educator conduct to the FCC standards for decency for radio and television. The bill is essentially a three strikes system, firing teachers if they violate FCC standards three times. While the goal of the bill may seem reasonable, the details strike me as silly."

32 of 122 comments (clear)

  1. Our repressed media is bad enough by pegasustonans · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There's no need to bring this puritanical nonsense into the classroom.

    Any good high school teacher should be able to say "you guys need to get your shit together" in good conscience. If, on the other hand, a genuinely bad teacher is abusive towards students, this is a job for the parents and school administration to handle rationally.

    There are already enough rules handed down to schools by politicized bureaucracies to make education a nightmare, why add to the burden with further insanity from the FCC?

    --
    And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. --Will
    1. Re:Our repressed media is bad enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You can already say "Shit" on TV if I recall, this sounds more like a back door attempt to stop proper sex education in favor of abstinence only propaganda.

      There's no need to bring this puritanical nonsense into the classroom.

      Any good high school teacher should be able to say "you guys need to get your shit together" in good conscience. If, on the other hand, a genuinely bad teacher is abusive towards students, this is a job for the parents and school administration to handle rationally.

      There are already enough rules handed down to schools by politicized bureaucracies to make education a nightmare, why add to the burden with further insanity from the FCC?

    2. Re:Our repressed media is bad enough by purpledinoz · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The FCC should just stay out of the censoring business and just manage the RF spectrum. Look at the Howard Stern show. Why was he not allowed to talk about sexual topics that Oprah was allowed to talk about? The rules were not clear, and were selectively enforced because the guy at the top didn't like him. Why was Janet Jackson's boob accidentally popping out such a big deal for the FCC? Putting the FCC in the classroom is the worst possible idea ever.

    3. Re:Our repressed media is bad enough by roman_mir · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's very important to raise generations of people incapable of distilling the real message out of the myriad pieces of nonsense that are bombarding an average person from all the MSM outlets.

      There is a very important reason to do this - running a totalitarian war machine is made much easier with a complacent population, it's much easier when the population believes everything it is told.

      For example: Iraq was not a threat to USA at any time, nor were they linked to 9/11, but majority of people (70% in that poll) were brainwashed by the politicians and the MSM enough to believe it.

      Right now every MSM channel in US is pushing Iran war, it's not even a question that the political mind is made up, the MSM system is in all gears to push that nonsense (and of-course US has a 'standing army', so there is nothing really that Congress or POTUS need to do to run that war, there is no need to search for more money, it's all already 'budgeted in'.)

      But how do you start, how do you create this insane mind control over the population? Well, you start young. You start with small type of censorship and then you go from there. Thus my previous comment (that was moded 'funny' but also a 'troll' as well) stands.

    4. Re:Our repressed media is bad enough by xaxa · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hmmm... my manager curses occasionally. Generally only when something especially annoying happens -- e.g. her manager has an accident, and she has to cover for him.

      But one of my colleagues says "fuck" as much as some people say "like". "I was, like, arguing with the other guys on the project, like, and they were like, 'Let's do it this way'." becomes, "Fuck, I was arguing with the other guys on the fucking project, and they fucking said 'Let's fucking do it this way'". It's very unprofessional, and I find it hard to take him seriously when he can't talk without swearing. He often raises eyebrows around the office "Fuck, Sam, come and look at this! Fucking amazing!". What's wrong with "Hey Sam!"?

      I don't think I've ever heard anyone else in my office swear (while at the office).

    5. Re:Our repressed media is bad enough by misexistentialist · · Score: 2

      "Fuck" is a manly discourse particle. "Like" or "hey" are chirpy words more suitable for the vocal cords of little boys and girls. Direct speech would of course be preferable, but conversation requires a little flair.

    6. Re:Our repressed media is bad enough by RicktheBrick · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I immediately thought of George Carlin and his 7 words routine. I did an internet search and found it on youtube. I know I have not watched it in a while but now it states that I have to sign up to verify that I am over 18 to watch it. This is insanity as I would think that this video would be almost mandatory for young children to watch. It presents a very rational discussion of the 7 words. Here is the link http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3D3_Nrp7cj_tM. I looked at it and decided it was not worth having to attempt to prove I am over 18 to watch it as I have already seen it several times. He asks why we invent a word and than decide it is not appropriate to say? He also says there are no dirty word but just dirty thoughts that those word bring to our minds.

    7. Re:Our repressed media is bad enough by TFAFalcon · · Score: 2

      I agree. In fact, this does not go even nearly far enough. All public employees should be prohibited from cursing in public. And that includes politicians. Three strikes and they're out of office permanently.

    8. Re:Our repressed media is bad enough by wasme · · Score: 2

      He asks why we invent a word and than decide it is not appropriate to say?

      History.

      Most (but not all) of our 'dirty words' today were regular anglo-saxon English words prior to the Norman invasion of 1066. After the Norman conquest the elites spoke French while commoners continued to speak English. Over time the elites were assimilated into the English speaking community (similar to how China keeps assimilating their conquerors over and over again (e.g. the Mongols, the Manchu)). But this separation that existed and how the elites adopted English leaves a lot of relics in our language. The vulgar [in linguistics meaning the 'common speech'. Language as it is actually spoken, not as it's written down or used in official functions] speech of the peasants became first vulgar [meaning crude and unrefined] and then vulgar [meaning explicit and offensive]. 'Proper people' would use French-descended terms brought into English. Essentially it was a form of 'class war' in which the elites may have adopted English but they rendered older English vocabulary of the lower classes into something unacceptable.

      (Of course all languages have 'improper' words. Having such words makes us able to express anger, frustration, etc that is 'beyond the pale'. Or just so we can be offensive because we want to be. So English would still have such words (although they'd probably be different words) even without the Norman conquest. But nevertheless this is how things evolved and where most of our particular 'vulgar words' came from.)

      Similarly this is why English is rather peculiar in how it has in many cases a word for a live animal and a separate word for meat from that animal (e.g. pig - pork, cow - beef, deer - venison). The animal was looked after by the poor and thus retained the original English term while the meat was consumed by the elites who called it by the French word.

  2. Censorship by roman_mir · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Censorship must start early in life, that's the first rule of government running propag... education system.

    1. Re:Censorship by Ardeaem · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I keep telling you people, the federal government has no business in public education, the local and state government. As stupid as this bill seems, the next "logical" step would be for Obama to force it on the rest of the nation.

      You think it is "logical" that Obama is just itching to pass a federal version of a state decency law written by a bunch of conservative Republicans? That word, "logical", I do not think it means what you think it means.

      Keeping all education local would prevent this stupidity from leaving Arizona's borders.

      That sure worked with local control of science standards and creationism, didn't it?

    2. Re:Censorship by roman_mir · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And those words they can't say really help the students how?

      - :) it doesn't. It helps the authorities with an early start of conditioning people into believing that what government authority (and any kind of authority) tells them is the truth.

      It's not about 'fuck' and all the other Carlin's favourites, it's about "Iraq was tied to Al Qaeda", "Hussein tied to 9/11", "Iran has nuclear weapons", "Iran is a threat to USA". It's about "Income taxes on the rich improve the economy". It's about "Income equality is government's mandate". It's about "Paper currency is money". It's about "Bailouts are necessary to save the economy".

      That's what it really is all about.

    3. Re:Censorship by roman_mir · · Score: 4, Funny

      fuck yeah, the motherfucking shitty 'education' system has gone tits up enough already! Everybody and their cocksucking cunts should be pissed!

    4. Re:Censorship by no-body · · Score: 2

      RTFS, it is a state bill, not federal. Trying to use the FCC standard not put the FCC into the school. Looks like the Arizona reps are ceding classroom decorum standards to the state, how's them apples.

      You are using the "F" letter in an inappropriate way - you are being watched!

    5. Re:Censorship by AF_Cheddar_Head · · Score: 2

      Yeah the later part of your post implies you know it is a state statute but you led off with saying keep the fed out of public education, implying that this was the feds idea. Why not lead off criticizing the idiots that think this is a good idea.

  3. There are so many things wrong with this ... by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... it's hard to know where to even start. But possibly the absolute worst is at the end of Paragraph B:

    B. For the purposes of this section, "public school" means a public preschool program, a public elementary school, a public junior high school, a public middle school, a public high school, a public vocational education program, a public community college or a public university in this state.

    (emphasis mine)

    For K-12 teachers, okay, I can kind of see this, although the penalties seem Draconian and I'm willing to bet that they already have in-school codes of conducts that prohibit swearing in the classroom. But are they actually saying that this is going to apply to professors in a classroom full of people who are legally adults? To discussions of literature containing the word "fuck"? To research faculty in their labs? Seriously?

    Apparently the bill's sponsor, Lori Klein, showed off her gun by aiming it at a reporter a while back. That tells you everything you need to know about the mentality of the people behind this. They're completely insane. Um, apeshit, if you will. And they're growing in power all over the country.

    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    1. Re:There are so many things wrong with this ... by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Good luck teaching sex ed or even physiology. The good news is that using the FCC guidelines teachers will be able to cover anything that is extremely violent.

      I think this is still push back for declaring "Make Love, Not War".

    2. Re:There are so many things wrong with this ... by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think this is still push back for declaring "Make Love, Not War".

      I think you're right. They lost the culture war decades ago, and deep down they know it, but they're going to keep fighting to make the mopping-up operation as nasty as possible.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    3. Re:There are so many things wrong with this ... by mooingyak · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm kind of curious where the impetus for this is coming from. Is Arizona suffering from a rash of swearing teachers? Are children all across the state going home and saying "Hey Mommy, my English teacher said the guy she picked up in the bar last night fucked her good, and we were all like 'No Ms. Jones, he fucked you well!"

      --
      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
  4. An excuse! by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

    It's actually very difficult to fire a public school teacher in the US. Take, for example, the case of Freshwater. Not only did he repeatly ignore the curriculum, but he used his position as a teacher to preach his religious views to the class, and then *repeatly burned students*. Yes, he actually branded them. Used the science equipment to physically injure them. You might think that if a teacher does that he'd be fired on the spot, but it actually took months of paperwork and reviews to get him fired - and then he appealed it in a legal battle that cost the school millions of dollars.

    I picked him out because he should be well-known to the slashdot crowd, but this isn't a liberal-vs-conservative thing. There are plenty of teachers from both sides who like to use their position to advance their own agenda (It's why some of them become reachers) and a lot who are simply incompetant. They are just very difficult and very expensive to get rid of. Teachers have some very powerful unions, and have used that power to achieve incredible job security.

    So think.. what would schools really like to help manage their teachers? How about some rule that is hard to obey, ideally so convoluted that you'd need a lawyer just to work out what it permits, and for which offenders can be promply sacked? The FCC standards are ideal. Hard to even figure out, and it only takes a momentary lapse of thought to violate them. The law appears to have no right of appeal, no board review. It's just written for selective enforcement. If the management wants to continue employing a teacher, they can just turn a blind eye to the occasional bit of mild profanity... but if they want rid of a teacher, all they need to do is wait. When the rules are so difficult to follow, everyone will slip up sooner or later. Indecency becomes the perfect excuse.

    Exactly what that results in would just depend on the school. It might be used as a quick-and-sneaky way to fire inept teachers without having to go through years of reviews and appeals, which is good. But equally it might be used for ideological clensing, so management can more easily stock the school with a staff who will indoctrinate the students into their own political agenda.

    1. Re:An excuse! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That is an idiotic example. Hurting students or otherwise inappropriately taking advantage of them leads to a fine or prison.
      This is a level where the school need not and _should_ not be involved, criminal prosecution is none of their business.
      And I really doubt it is hard to fire someone who is in prison and can't come to work.
      Also that the court process cost "millions of dollars" has nothing to do with teachers but only with a completely and thoroughly dysfunctional US court system, which basically tried to find anything that could be done wrong and then implemented it.

    2. Re:An excuse! by funkylovemonkey · · Score: 2

      Except that Freshwater was immediately suspended without pay following the allegations, which is as good as firing, until the hearing was completed. The length it took had to do with the very difficult to prove allegations. The fact that most parents weren't willing to press charges is one of the reasons it was so difficult to fire him. Not only that but some of the more extreme examples from the case like the burning were almost impossible to prove as the student who claimed it was never allowed to be physically examined and never went to a hospital, despite the fact it almost certainly would have warranted it. In fact that was not why he was terminated since the person in charge of investigating reported that “Once sworn testimony was presented, it [became] obvious that speculation and imagination had pushed reality aside." Instead he was fired for incorrectly teaching evolution. Depending on the state it;s actually not that difficult to fire teachers, despite what you might hear in the media, you just need cause. The fact that Freshwater sued for wrongful termination has nothing to do with a broken school system and everything to do with the legal system. He had a right to sue, and he lost costing him almost a million dollars as well.

  5. "Reasonable"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How are these goals in any way reasonable?

  6. Reasonable ? by mbone · · Score: 4, Insightful

    While the goal of the bill may seem reasonable,

    This is the Arizona Republican Party we are talking about here. Of course the goals of this Bill are not reasonable.

  7. The real question is: by skund · · Score: 2

    Will they get someone in the classrom with a beeper who will beep over those words? That would be awsome!

  8. Re:This will be put into effect. by MisterMidi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    America, land of the free and home of the brave

  9. Re:Two words by pegasustonans · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Teachers' Unions.

    Firing a teacher for anything short of driving their car into the school while drunk and getting a hummer from the head cheerleader is nearly impossible because of them.

    Tell that to the 22,000 California teachers laid off last year.

    Education is consistently targeted for cuts during this recession, and people keep insisting teachers have it easy.

    Wake up. It's our kids that are going to suffer.

    --
    And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. --Will
  10. Nice by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I can only guess that teachers in Arizona are not in the habit of ripping off nipple shields... so what is this really guarding against? Bad language? Most teachers have to look up the curse words of kids.

    No, this isn't about teachers mis-behaving. This is about art, sexual education and the "wrong" kind of books. There are plenty of parents who want to sanitize all education so that little Timmy doesn't learn anything that might upset his parents and this is the way to do it. Don't bother banning books, art or subjects, simply say that undecent things are not allowed and then watch teachers censor themselves to not loose their jobs.

    Real nice.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  11. Only two unions left in AZ with balls... by rocket+rancher · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...the mines and the teachers. This is a swift kick to the latter's. Unions are only as strong as their cash boxes are deep. Force the Arizona teacher's unions to start defending members in court against something as wide open to interpretation as FCC decency standards, and that will drain the cashbox very quickly. A brilliant tactic on the part of the union busters; Arizona has long been a "right-to-work" state (read: anti-union) and this will effectively take the teacher's union out of the game if it gets through the legislature.

  12. Re:Two words by pegasustonans · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Tenure is there largely to protect educators' ability to teach effectively.

    While there are downsides to the system, the upshot is we have teachers who are partially shielded from political or cultural sway so they can decide a curriculum based on reason rather than the popular flavor of the season.

    You can talk about introducing a merit based system, but all this will do is create a popularity contest where effectiveness is measured by how well an educator can mimic whatever is currently in vogue.

    You could say the teaching environment suffers when there's a teacher at a school, and they're not very good at what they do, but what about every single teacher at a school being selected based on an artificial politicized ideal? That would be downright frightening, if you ask me.

    --
    And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. --Will
  13. Re:Two words by newcastlejon · · Score: 2

    Firing != laid off

    The two are synonymous. Look it up, if you don't believe me.

    It depends on your dictionary, as with all questions of semantics. However, the point being made boils down to this:

    "Firing" is referring to what happens when an employee is dismissed for something they have done, e.g. driving a car through the school while drunk.

    Being "laid off" is what happens when an employee is dismissed because they are surplus to requirements and is commonly called "being made redundant" where I'm from (compared with "being sacked").

    --
    If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
  14. Re:Two words by xero314 · · Score: 2

    Having survived many layoffs I will tell you that this is incorrect. Layoffs are a way to release a person, for any reason, without having to follow the usual guidelines for termination. This allows companies to not document wrong doings, and to let people go for personal reasons. It is usually done under the guise of resource reduction, but in many cases those laid off employees are replaced with in a years time.