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4 UK Urban Explorers Face Orders Not To Talk With Each Other For 10 Years
First time accepted submitter Trapezium Artist writes "Four friends apprehended exploring the disused Aldwych station in London's Underground are faced with an 'anti-social behaviour order' (ASBO) which would forbid them from talking to each other for a full 10 years. The so-called 'Aldwych four,' experienced urban explorers, were discovered in the tunnels under the UK's capital city a few days before last year's royal wedding and the greatly increased security measures in place led to their being interviewed by senior members of the British Transport Police. Nevertheless, once their benign intentions had been established, they were let off with a caution. However, following an accident caused by another, unrelated group of urban explorers in the tunnels a few months later, Transport for London applied to have ASBOs issued to the Aldwych four. These would forbid them from any further expeditions, from blogging or otherwise publicly discussing any exploits, and even from talking with each other for the 10 year duration of the order. One could argue about the ethics of urban exploration, but this nevertheless seems like an astonishingly heavy-handed over-reaction by TfL."
I'd imagine there'd be a way to comply with the heavy-handed order while having a venue that is out of reach of the ASBO.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
I don't think anyone has been told who they can and can't be friends with since they were about 10. Now the government gets to decide? Alan Moore is a prophet.
I swear to God. This is the premise for a fiction/science fiction novel. If two of the 4 were developing romantic feelings for each other the UK could be sued for copyright infringement by several publishers. I dont...I dont think I'm OK with the world right now. I need a hug. Before that's banned too.
They were let off with a warning, but some bozo expects to issue a court order demanding that a group of friends NOT EVEN TALK TO EACH OTHER for a DECADE?
WTF?
I mean, seriously, WTF?!?!?!?!
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
I may be completely missing the point here, but this ruling seems completely unenforceable. How do you stop four friends talking to each other if they are not incarcerated? There are a hundred and one ways to talk to people in this modern age and many of those are anonymous and not easily tracked or monitored.
This just seems like one of those sentences which is "harsh" to make a point but doesn't actually make any difference to how these men will communicate. That said, it's also completely ridiculous that these people with no ill intent were made such an example of, and that they were given a punishment which is illogical and far too much trouble than it's worth to enforce.
For me I get the mental picture of a large amorphous giant made out of people, blundering about on the landscape saving people from themselves with one hand and crushing others for their own good.
We so need a better system.
Seriously folks, you have to Google them.
One basic summary of them is that you can issue an ASBO to stop someone from doing something *that isn't a crime*, if they then break the order, then *that is a crime* and you can arrest and jail them.
How the fuck can Government order people NOT to speak to each other! I understand giving an order not to speak to each other for a week or two, that's somewhat acceptable but a whole decade, that is a little bit too much. Next they will be telling us where we can't walk for next, I don't know, 100 years? Would that be acceptable for you Mr. President? You shat there and nobody MUST not see your shit, and everybody alive will die when 100 years pass so nobody will know about it.
By the way I do understand security side of this nonsense and nevertheless that fear must not control us, for we are not sheep (or at least we think we are not).
And why would there be a need for all that security if their Government weren't policing other nations around, together with US, like some kind of parents, abusive at that.
This is terrible. There are already laws in place to prevent the "anti-social" aspects of what these guys did. They were arrested and charged with these crimes (a caution does count as a conviction). Every urban explorer knows this is a risk.
ASBOs are meant to deal with anti social behaviour that isn't actually criminal. The only "anti-social" aspect of their behaviour was the illegal part.
What reason not to give them back (other than summary 'punishment' by the police) ? If they did not get them back, they have probably been back to take new photos.
Streisand Effect.
It is very disturbing to read that anyone seeking to take pictures of an abandoned or unused subway stations are subject to any sort of "Anti social" order. Taking pictures of a disused public conveyance is hardly "antisocial." Given the violent tendencies of yobs and chavs I've read about elsewhere; law enforcement in this jurisdiction has better things to do with their time.
BTW Did they ever let Tony Martin out of jail or is he still a danger to burglars?
Did these guys even consider writing to TfL and asking for permission to go to the station? Nope. They were doing it for the rush, the danger, the excitement - the risk of getting creamed by a train or getting caught. They got caught. Too bad. That's what the rush is all about. So they should stand up and take their punishment.
i must say that is bullshit. I live in Minnesota and there is group that does this types of thing. I wish i was with them cause even if i got arrested the pictures would be worth it. Im so sorry the "Crown of england" thinks there super special even thought the only power they have us dismiss parliament. They did nothing wrong. We have several of those abandoned train lines in the USA. LA and NYC has stations that are not used. If i had the money and better photo equipment i would so do what they did. I also would love to see that ruling stand in USA. Cause the second i couldnt see my friend i would laugh then appeal to the highest level of courts in the US. Then i would laugh some more as i sue the lower courts.
The UK has become a third-world nation with a first-rate Nanny State.
They slap you with an ASBO?
It is not illegal to climb, but you might hurt yourself or your friend, and that would be "antisocial".
And then if you do skateboarding...
And tattoos and nose piercing...
We have a room in this insane asylum...
New World Antisocial Behavior Order
If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
(Slightly edited from the original)
Tommy: Doesn't it make you proud to be English?
Mark "Rent-boy" Renton: It's SHITE being English! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the fucking Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. We're ruled by effete assholes. It's a SHITE state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and ALL the fresh air in the world won't make any fucking difference!
What one fool can do, another can. (Ancient Simian Proverb)
OK, uh, that's weird...
-- Terry
Check out their site: silentuk, very cool pictures there.
Here are the Aldwych station pictures
Are we sure we defeated the nazis?
Watching the world lately i'm really not sure we did...
"The oldest recipient of an order to date is an 87-year-old who among other things is forbidden from being sarcastic to his neighbours (July 2003). He was subsequently found guilty of breaking the terms of his order on three separate occasions. He awaits sentencing but the judge has already made it clear that "there will be no prison for an 88 year old man". (Source—Statewatch ASBOwatch)"
I know ASBOs are a farce, but jesus, I didn't know how far we had sunk - as a Brit, I'm amazed at this list of more controversial ASBOs - http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmhaff/80/80we20.htm
An apt name: They are ordered to exhibit anti-social behaviour, namely not talking to each other.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
As a kid, what is now called "urban exploration" was a treasured hobby. Living in a big, boring government city, we'd ride our bikes far and wide in search of interesting areas and abandoned buildings. And by "we", I mean about half the kids my age. We'd venture out in groups, anywhere from two to ten of us, exploring all sorts of out-of-view places like unmanned water supply hubs, underground walkways, decommissioned train stations and the abandoned warehouses. The worst thing we ever encountered were a pair of crackheads who threatened to steal our bikes. So they got their asses beat by a pack of little kids with rocks and sticks :)
At no point in any of this did we feel like we were harming persons or property. We didn't even tag stuff, we just wanted to admire cool spots and all the kitschy 60's and 70's crap that has been left behind. To criminalize such acts of natural curiosity seems patently ridiculous to me. That said, it's not kosher to sneak around an active subway system past security lines, but I'd like to suggest an alternative solution: official tours of the abandoned subway stations! People like to see those out-of-the-way areas, so why not charge them a couple bucks and have guide safely lead would-be explorers in a perfectly legal manner. Sure, for some it takes away the thrill of sneaking around, but at least for myself, the goal was never to break laws, it was merely satisfying my curiosity.
As an aside, my high school was situated in a 150 year old castle, erected by one of the region's pioneers and eventually donated to the church, who repurposed it as an agricultural college in the early 20th century. Like many buildings of the era, it had vast underground catacombs and passageways connecting the various buildings, as well as upper levels that formerly housed residents, staff, and clergymen. They even had their own barber shop up there! We had an underground tunnel lined with lockers, something many of us considered a privilege as it conferred some peace and privacy. Most of these areas were not used during my time, but we were invited to explore, with guided tours arranged at least a few times a year. If you knew the routes, you could get to any building without stepping outside, a welcome luxury on rainy days or in -40'C winter storms. And if the indoors weren't your thing, there was a 30 acre forest island with beaches, rapids, a large rock formation, abandoned booths and small cabins from sporting events dating back 50-60 years, and all sorts of places to climb. Snooping around is what we did for fun, and it was encouraged!
It sure beats what today's kids do: sit around, baked out of their minds as they escape the mindlessness of our scared society.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
I understand that he had been burgled many times before (losing a total of about 10 000 dollars) and that he had all the right to be frustrated about police inaction... That said, he had no reason to believe he was under any threat when he fired his shotgun at the backs of two people who were trying to flee through the window, killing one and injuring the other. The court thought that he was clearly using inappropriate force and he spent 3 years in jail after which he was let free because he behaved well.
Call me crazy freedom-hating left-wing nutjob if you want to, but I don't think that anyone has the right to execute people without a trial if it's not in self-defense... especially when it comes to crimes that don't carry a death penalty in the first place.
As a keen photographer myself - to me these disused areas of the city are areas of public interest - particularly the old closed down underground stations. Rather than slapping down ASBOs on people - London Transport should wake up to the potential of their sites - and turn them into museums or at least offer guided tours of these sites - open them up to the curious public to view the sites in a safe manner - and let photographers take the pictures they want to take. Just stop treating photographers as potential terrorist - because that is the last thing we are!
I know that the British legal system is somewhat different than the continental one, but I thought that getting punished twice for the same crime was forbidden everywhere in the civilised world. After they got a caution for what they did, on what grounds can they be punished again for it?
From what I read in TFA the ASBOs have been applied for but not (yet) granted. Think we have to wait and see what the UK legal system says about this before we can comment intelligently.
blindly antisocialist = antisocial
I'd imagine there'd be a way to comply with the heavy-handed order while having a venue that is out of reach of the ASBO.
Can they communicate indirectly, via mutual friends?
If not, then since they likely have a number of mutual friends, they are effectively being told not to communicate with anyone who communicates with others in the affected group. After all, what if a mutual friend mentions something one of the other members of the affected group said? How about indirect communication via two degrees of separation? If they are forbidden from indirect contact, then the order is perilously close to requiring solitary confinement or other drastic social exclusion.
An exclusion which prohibits communication with mutual friends is likely a good test case for the ECJ or the ECHR. Similarly, an order which imposes an onerous obligation on mutual friends which were not subjects of the order, would be a good test case for said mutual friends to bring to the ECJ or ECHR.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
IANAL but I strongly suspect that the ECHR would completely strike out non-association. It is clearly a human rights violation. Unfortunately our pathetic right-wing Murdoch/Rothermere Press is totally uninterested in civil liberties - except of course their right to hack computers, listen in on voicemail, threaten vulnerable people (Charlotte Church case) and misrepresent the EU.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Viola! No trash talk press conference brawls anymore!
. . . and for Adele and her finger . . .
The UK now has a law to order folks to, "Oh! Behave! . . . "
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
A £23 million operation prior to the royal wedding and these guys were roaming the underground.
As the treatment of Manning shows, the greatest crime is to embarrass a politician.
Yea, this is ridiculous. Christ Britons, aren't you getting sick of the constant elimination of basic freedoms? Is there any point whatsoever where you'll actually say "Enough!" and stand up for yourselves?
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
Think we have to wait and see what the UK legal system says about this before we can comment intelligently.
You must be new here.
As a keen photographer myself - to me these disused areas of the city are areas of public interest - particularly the old closed down underground stations. Rather than slapping down ASBOs on people - London Transport should wake up to the potential of their sites - and turn them into museums or at least offer guided tours of these sites - open them up to the curious public to view the sites in a safe manner
They actually did this a couple of months ago in the same station the 'explorers' were arrested in:
http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2011/11/01/your-chance-to-visit-an-abandoned-tube-station/
- and let photographers take the pictures they want to take. Just stop treating photographers as potential terrorist - because that is the last thing we are!
This, it seems, is a step too far for them!:
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/DSLRs_banned_from_Aldwych_tube_station_news_310663.html
AP and the BJP made a fuss, which has at least got TfL thinking:
http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/2136431/london-underground-apologises-dslr-ban-blunder
'The Museum is also exploring the possibility of holding a photography day at the end of the year at the station. "This would be for a much smaller group of people who could use digital SLRs and other equipment. The smaller group will be much easier to manage and allow visitors to get the photographs they want whilst being able to safely get up and down the spiral staircase."'
ASBOs are virtually unknown in all the European countries I know of. They seem to be the perfect tool for state terrorism against citizens though. So I expect something similar to creep into the laws of other European countries too ...
Transport for London members are banned from placing their heads up their own rectums for a period of ten years. It is felt the ban will improve safety on London roads and aid in the overall function of Transport for London.
What dark secret lies at the heart of Aldwych station?
You quoted the BBC's examples. e.g. the wheel clamper:
"Not only was he clamping cars parked on land where he had no licence to operate, but he once impounded a police car. "
The crime he committed was extracting money with menace. However that's a pain for the police to prosecute, you know they'd have to record his actions and take witness evidence etc. Far easier to get a magistrate (magistrates are not legally trained, they are not lawyers they are laypeople), to issue an ASBO.
I don't think ASBO has a real use, its used because it's so easy to use. It's exactly because it's easy to get that it's used instead of a real prosecution.
But it ends up with this and many more ridiculous nonsense. The idea that freedom of speech is so low, that trespass (which is not a crime BTW) trumps it? Who decided this? Parliament? No, one layperson. All it takes for rights to disappear is one layperson in the UK it seems.
And people say the US sucks, at least they tell you who to be friends with...
"I didn't talk to him. I just posted stuff on my Facebook Wall. It's not my fault he read it along with my 1300 other Facebook Friends!"
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
I have actually been following the Leveson Enquiry, and it is pretty obvious that (a) it is not a small number of employees; the last I remember we were up to 47 arrests and Leveson is being told that it was part of the corporate culture and (b) the police and CPS officials who are having their collars felt got money from NI. To slightly mis-quote a retired KGB official "Capitalism is wonderful. You would be amazed how little money it takes to get someone to betray their country".
The point of my complaint is that the British right-wing press is very quick to support erosions of civil liberties, while very loud in demanding its own right to exceed the limits of the law. As a result, obvious attempts to erode civil liberties go unreported (or supported). It is an unhealthy climate which has been imported from the US.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Presumably they stumbled across the assembly facility for the secret robot army the UK is going to use reconquer the dissident colonies.
you need a guilty mind and a guilty act to constitute a crime.
The law might have been like that once, but it isn't now (strict criminal liability) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability_(criminal).
Strict liability is one of those things that seems to creep in when it seems to lawmakers like a good idea at the time. But once it's in place, the lawmakers find it rather easy to overextend it, and make it cover more and more matters that many people would say ought to be judged under the old standard of intent.
-wb-
They should issue anti-social behaviour orders to any asshole with over 100 watts of audio in their house or car instead.
Agree that the authorities are right when they pursue these geezers, but this punishment seems to interfere with their basic civil rights. I would much rather see them fined heavily (£1k per infringement + reimbursement of all damages, including law enforcement, public transport and internal security – easily in the neighbourhood of several million GBP). If they can't pay up, the punks should prepare to have all their property confiscated and auctioned. Repeat offenders should be put behind bars without a question.
Hard to believe you lost the WHOLE empire.
Whenever I worry about how invasive or "Big Brotherly" things might be getting here, I just have to see one of these stories from Great Britain and relax.
The crime these 4 committed is called "trespassing" (in the US). Unless you trespass on a restricted government site, then it is a simple misdemeanor.
Things like: Buses and tube trains terminating before their advertised destination. Roadworks in the wrong place at the wrong time. Spokespeople contributing to global warming. Yep, TfL should give itself an ASBO.
If any of the urbexers are reading this, here's how you can re-establish contact with your friends anonymously:
1. Set up a Tor node and torchat on your home computer.
2. Create instructions for your friends on how to set up a Tor node and torchat, and through Tor with a locked-down browser, put it online. Putting it on your own .onion hosting and using a tor2web URL would be best so that you can take it down later, but Pastebin could do if you're not that good with computers. If you use Pastebin be sure to include your Tor hidden service name (chat username).
3. Now all you have to do is get this document to your friends. At a time when you are normally sleeping, leave the house wearing a hoodie and gloves (through an exit where CCTVs can't see you, don't make it possible to pin down where you came from), leave your cell phone at home and turned on. Do not take your car. You can take public transportation if you pay with cash. Use a pay phone as far as convenient from your house to call your friends. Mask your voice and don't give names. Just tell them to write down a website and visit it. Leave a voicemail if they aren't there or hang up on you thinking it's a prank.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
You can't just tell two people not to talk to each other. The same way you can't tell them to pray to a particular god or only have sex in a certain way.
They were just trying to find a logbook. Since GPS does not work so well underground, they had to follow clues and explore.
Now they cannot post their experience on geocaching sites to warn others not to follow the cache. :)
Let me ABSOs go loose, Lew
Let me ABSOs go loose
They're of no further use, Lew
So let me ABSOs go loose.
(with apologies to Rolf Harris)
Those who can, do. Those who can't, write technology blogs.
One was already granted for 2 years.
However, following an accident caused by another, unrelated group of urban explorers in the tunnels a few months later, Transport for London applied to have ASBOs issued to the Aldwych four.
What is unique about exploring tunnels that is different than mountain climbing, playing sports, skateboarding, etc. etc. etc.
Was the accident especially horrific?
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
All these comments, and I can't find a reference to Seinfeld. Some nerds you are.
This is politics on Slashdot. No one will comment intelligently.
No, it isn't a human right to associate with people. Its a civil right. Its a civil right that is guaranteed to all people residing in incorporated territory of the United States (the 50 States + Puerto Rico), not just citizens, by their Constitution; British have no such unalienable right.
anyone else note that that an Anti-Socal Behavior Order (something, allegedly to limit anti-socal behavior) is telling them they cannot be socal?
War is Peace
Freedom is slavory
Ignorance is strength
...the abandoned london underground.
must explore the deep level sections before i die.
And you wonder why people are going to bomb/fight goverment facilities.. What nonsense is this kind of crap if you can't even discuss a simple thing as those tunnels. If goverments are issueing unnecessary warrants like this, then they should be targeted because that just goes against all democratic sense.. It looks like even hitler was more lenient than the UK goverment..
If they were planning to bomb something instead of just exploring the tube's then it would be a whole different matter, but comeon, stop this useless abuse of power.. what's hidden in those tunnels they don't want 'us' to see?
I totally agree with this.
I KNOW that neither group did any breaking or entering and knew the risks that they were taking as well as knowing equally as much what they were doing. Both groups are quite experienced at this type of thing. They were foolish (imo) to do something on that weekend when there was a very high security presence in the capital.
TfL have been hugely embarrassed by this, a 'bunch of 'kids' breaking into the the underground' as I am sure the Daily Mail readers would call it. The ASBO is surely non-enforceable and a breach of rights.
TfL would be far better expending efforts researching how they got in and shoring up the security for the games in a few months.
A caution is not just a warning. It is pretty much the same thing as a conviction. It shows up on all criminal records bureau checks. But unlike an actual conviction, that follow you around for longer.
NEVER accept a caution. If your solicitor advises you to, get a new solicitor. Always opt for charges and a trial. You're far more likely to walk away clean that way.
Wow. This is ridiculous. It is certainly time to move to another country, is it not?
monkey island...
1) People do stupid things
2) Other people think the stupid thing should be stopped
3) A Law is written
4) If the law is sufficiently well written it will be applied in a fair manner and all will be well
5) If the law is not sufficiently well written it will be applied in an unfair manner, in which case it becomes an instance of people doing stupid things. Go to point 1.
And so on.