Apple Threatens To Pull Siri Clone From App Store

daria42 writes "Steve Jobs might not be around any more to enforce some of Apple's stricter policies, but that doesn't mean the company is letting it all hang loose. Overnight the U.K. company which produces a speech recognition app called Evi, which mimics many of the functions of Apple's Siri, confirmed Apple had approached his company letting it know that Evi was being reviewed for possible breaches of Apple's App Store policies. The reason? A clause in the policy which bans apps too similar to Apple's existing software. It does appear to matter to Apple that Siri doesn't function that well in the U.K., because of a lack of good localisation." Supposedly Evi will be continue to be allowed on iOS if it alters its interface to be dissimilar enough from Siri to placate Apple.

Comments

How do you like them...

[Anonymous Coward]

...apples.

Re:How do you like them...

[Cryacin]

Don't be Siri. Be Evir.

Re:How do you like them...

[zlives]

i am Sirial...

Is this Apple or MS?

[sjwt]

Sounds like its time for an antitrust case to me.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[mjwx]

Sounds like its time for an antitrust case to me.

Yes,

But Apple has been pulling competing applications from the app store since it's inception, no alterate email clients, SMS clients, diallers, MP3 players, browsers (proper browsers, not viewers for server generated images or window dressing for the existing rendering engine) and others.

The question is, why is Apple even threatening? Their normal procedure is to pull the app, remove it from everyone's phone, revoke the developers key and send an iAssassination squad to eliminate the one who dared defy them.

Has this guy got compromising photos of Tim Cook and Steve Jobs?

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[mikael_j]

Why would it be time for an antitrust case?

Apple doesn't have a monopoly on smartphones, software for smartphones or anything really.

They do however have a product (the iPhone) which is designed to only receive software authorized by Apple (through the App store) but this is not a monopoly, there are plenty of competing products on the market.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Antitrust cases aren't strictly about monopolies, it's about abusing dominance in a market, for example to push into other markets. Market domination has no clear cut definition.

If, say, one would successfully argue that Apple is dominating in mobile OS market, then using that position to promote Apple's web browser would be illegal.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[JosKarith]

Just another reason to avoid the proprietary lock-in hell that is Apple's walled garden. Sure their products are shiny and smooth but you trade all your rights to the device you just forked out enough to buy a car on for that ease of use.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Cryacin]

you just forked out enough to buy a car

That must be some car.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[SuricouRaven]

You could also use Google's walled garden, or Microsoft's walled garden, or RIMs walled garden.

Google's walls are considerably shorter than the others, but walls nontheless. It really just comes down to business management: There is some profit to be had in device manufacture alone, but there is far greater profit to be made in providing services those devices must depend upon.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Inconexo]

Apple is now more microsoft than Microsoft used to be.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this mean 1984 really does end up being like 1984?

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Threni]

I thought you could install anything you wanted onto an Android phone, out of the box, no jailbreaking or anything. Just email youself the package and install, or use usb etc. That's not a wall.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but to establish market power (not market "domination", which has no definition because it's not a meaningful term), you have to concede that the other smartphone platforms pose no significant competition to Apple. As any Slashdot story or any sales figure would show, that's not the case.

Apple is an immensely powerful player in the smartphone space, but its ability to cause competitors to act isn't because of market power in the economic and business sense, but instead because of a publicity profile. Apple is the one to beat because of a combination of customer satisfaction, marketing, and industrial engineering and design prowess (and increasingly, technical achievement in certain areas). They're not the ones to beat because of units sold or because they can force competitors to do specifically what Apple wants them to do.

Their success despite stronghold on platform rules, and especially considering that they are sometimes unevenly applied and result in some functionality gaps with competing products is very strong evidence of competitive success, not interference with the market. These forces would tend to drive customers away toward the fine alternatives available, except that people view the benefits as far outweighing the inconveniences. Report after report shows unparalleled satisfaction and repeat purchases of their mobile devices, along with strong growth over a period of time.

In short, popularity alone isn't market power in the context of competition law. Customers and developers have plenty of options if they don't like the balance of pros and cons offered by Apple. Just because a huge number of people use something that a small but vocal crowd thinks is unduly restrictive is not an antitrust issue.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[phayes]

Sounds more like the typical whine of people who, after tens of articles on /. bitching that Apple doesn't allow (apps similar to their OS apps, porn, flagrant ripoffs of existing apps), still don't comprehend that the Apple is not a monopoly & thus App store rules are not abuse of a monopoly.

If you want different app store rules on your iPhone, jailbeak it. If, as I suspect, you don't event have an iPhone, spare us from your whining...

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[mjwx]

You could also use Google's walled garden, or Microsoft's walled garden, or RIMs walled garden.

Google doesn't have a walled garden. it's an open park you can walk into and out of all of your own accord.

I think you need to look up the definition of "walled garden" or actually use Android for yourself. It's nothing like Apple's system of lockdown.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymus]

I think you're confused about what the term "walled garden" refers to. It means that the carrier or service provider controls exactly what is and isn't allowed on the phone.

Apple is the only platform you mentioned with a walled garden approach. Google (Android), Microsoft (MS Mobile), and RIM (Blackberry) all allow users to install any application they want. They may not be allowed in an official app store, but you can just connect your phone via usb or email files to your phone and do whatever you want. Each of those platforms may have varying levels of what features/hardware the software is allowed access to once it's on the phone, usually for security but sometimes for business reasons, but that is not the same thing as a walled garden.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymus]

Every product Apple has created in the last 10 years has been designed specifically to drive sales of their other products, while maintaining a closed, integrated system that can't be broken out of. That is literally Apple's core business model, if you look at anything Steve Jobs has ever said. If they ever actually achieve market dominance in an area, they will be destroyed by anti-trust litigation (or should, but with $80+ billion for lawyers, they're untouchable) because their entire strategy is abusing power in one area of their business to feed and promote another.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Deorus]

Fortunately, they only care about the high-end, so market dominance is unlikely to ever happen.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple are Evi - l

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Truedat]

You could also use Google's walled garden, or Microsoft's walled garden, or RIMs walled garden.

Google doesn't have a walled garden. it's an open park you can walk into and out of all of your own accord. I think you need to look up the definition of "walled garden" or actually use Android for yourself. It's nothing like Apple's system of lockdown.

Actually I've never been sure of the meaning of "walled garden". For example most gardens I know of have a gate that you can use to exit and explore the wider, ahem, HTML fauna. I know the term is used pejoratively here on slashdot but to most other people it sounds kind of nice. You know, like maybe there is a tea shop you can visit just next door. Perhaps it's time to revisit our horticultural themed analogy, would critics be better off using "prison yard"?

So where do people put android in this analogy - is it like one of those houses that don't have a garden at all, perhaps the front door leads straight out into the street? Or perhaps the landlord allows you to grow whatever the hell you like in the garden, beautiful flowers or thorny old weeds.

Whatever, the whole walled garden meme seems like it needs more work.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[BasilBrush]

But Apple has been pulling competing applications from the app store since it's inception, no alterate email clients, SMS clients, diallers, MP3 players,

That's odd, because you can go to the App Store and find plenty of alternate email clients, diallers, SMS clients, and MP3 players. Plenty that have been there a long time.

browsers (proper browsers, not viewers for server generated images or window dressing for the existing rendering engine) and others.

That's the only one in your list that's true. You are allowed to create alternative browsers, and there are many on the App store. But you're not allowed to put your own browser rendering engine on iOS. In part because it would fall foul of the no interpreters with downloadable content rule.

You are allowed to compete with Apple's own apps on functionality. What you're not allowed to do is to copy the UI of one of Apple's Apps. That's the reason Evi have been asked to change. Because the UI is too much of a Siri copy.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[BasilBrush]

If they ever actually achieve market dominance in an area, they will be destroyed by anti-trust litigation

With iPod they had monopoly dominance in the MP3 player market for years. No anti-trust suit. It's not illegal to have a monopoly.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think there is some confusion about the dictionary definition of monopoly and the legal definition. In the UK, at least, you are deemed to hold a monopoly position within a market if you control more than 25%, which apple certainly does in the smartphone market.

Also, and I admit it might be a tenuous, you could argue that apps for iOS is a single market, and therefore apple has a 100% monopoly on the supply of apps for iOS, a position that I think most of us agree the abuse to one degree or another.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[mikael_j]

How did Apple have a monopoly on MP3 players? There were plenty of others on the market although the iPod was the best-selling one.

And even if they did have a monopoly, in what way did they abuse this monopoly?

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Mithent]

The analogy about what you're allowed to grow in your garden is a decent one... On the Apple side we have a controlled neighbourhood where you're required to select one of the limited number of approved layouts and plant only the kind of plants that the committee allow, ensuring that you have a nice garden but restricting your freedom to develop it in the way you like. There are no controls on Android gardens, giving potential for more creative designs and interesting gardens, but with nothing stopping you letting your garden overgrow with thorns and weeds other than your own care and attention.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[peragrin]

as an apple user,

Apple is now more Microsoft than Microsoft tried to be.

I refuse to use things that tie me directly to their control. same with google or microsoft. however the simple fact the iOS has had less viruses, less trojans than android by a factor of 1000 means that they are doing something right.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[CrackedButter]

Walled garden, yadda yadda fear mongering bias making use of all the negative buzzwords to describe Apple. Have you seen how beautiful a real Walled Garden is? At the same time who doesn't lock in customers?

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[gyaku_zuki]

I don't even like Apple, but I agree with everything this dude ^ said. I love my Android, I find it much better than any iOS device, but when so many people buy and don't care about the lock-in and so on, you can't really argue they aren't doing something right.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[CrackedButter]

Really? An "integrated system that can't be broken out of"? You're talking shit on so many levels. As a simple user myself with allusions of being a super user, I can easily transfer everything to another OS tomorrow if I wanted, saying it requires work to do so isn't unfathomable, any switchover will. For those on the hacker level for greater freedom, you can jailbreak and remove drm protections with instructions available online.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[coinreturn]

You could also use Google's walled garden, or Microsoft's walled garden, or RIMs walled garden.

Google doesn't have a walled garden. it's an open park you can walk into and out of all of your own accord. I think you need to look up the definition of "walled garden" or actually use Android for yourself. It's nothing like Apple's system of lockdown.

The definition seems to be "A term used derisively by Apple haters."

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Dunbal]

Ease of use my arse. Obfuscating an interface under big, shiny buttons is not "ease of use". Not to mention no batterly life on the iPhone 4s and a charging cable so short you have to put your $500+ phone on the floor wherever you charge it.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I've never been sure of the meaning of "walled garden".

the whole walled garden meme seems like it needs more work.

But how do you know that if you don't even get the meaning??? I AM CONFUSE.

I know the term is used pejoratively here on slashdot but to most other people it sounds kind of nice. You know, like maybe there is a tea shop you can visit just next door.

Walled garden is used pejoratively here because nerds have a tendency to tinker about with gadgets. Walled gardens prevent that.

The Walled Garden analogy is supposed to be about a locked in garden which is carefully tended to exacting standards with no foreign interference that isn't strictly regulated. It's not *technically* a bad thing, but that's wholly dependent on where you feel on the "giving up rights for safety" argument.

So where do people put android in this analogy - is it like one of those houses that don't have a garden at all, perhaps the front door leads straight out into the street? Or perhaps the landlord allows you to grow whatever the hell you like in the garden, beautiful flowers or thorny old weeds.

If every iPhone is a walled garden that you need to use as Apple demands, Android is like a basic garden set that they sell you and you can add whatever you feel like. Sure, the Apple one is guaranteed to look prettier and be safer in its uniformity, but the Android will have a lot more potential for something kinda cool. And also potential for disaster.

TLDR: Apple is a snow globe. Android is a diorama. You are right in that garden analogy could use expansion.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Ironhandx]

Um, none of the others could compete on the same level due to Apple locking in very key technology to increasing the storage size of their MP3 players at the time.

I personally was going to buy one because I could simply drop my entire mp3 collection onto it.

No more "Aww, I wish I'd loaded song x today"

However my use case for it was very limited.

Nothing was available in the way of any serious competition until flash memory advances were made to allow similar storage sizes to the original two versions of the iPod.

The 2gb iPod was eight times larger in terms of storage than its next closest competitor when it was released.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I've never been sure of the meaning of "walled garden".
Whatever, the whole walled garden meme seems like it needs more work.

It's not a meme, it's a technical term. A "Walled Garden" is a network (or system) which is enclosed and self-contained, and if there is any way to get out of it you're required to pass by some type of gate-keeping mechanism.

Probably the most common example is in use at many Hotels, where you are blocked entirely from the internet until you click on their internal "landing page" which registers your computer and then allows you to access the internet.

For example most gardens I know of have a gate that you can use to exit and explore the wider, ahem, HTML fauna.

Right, the point being that the walls of the garden restrict you to only being able to wander inside the garden, and you are kept from the outside world by the gate. It's an analogy used to express the idea of artificially containing you in a predetermined area, it's not supposed to be an exact replica of some real-life situation.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[_Shad0w_]

I suspect most iPhone owners charge their phone from a USB port, not a power point. I know I do: it just gets dropped in to the cradle when I get home at night.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Only in an apple related thread you got this level of analogy R&D. Jesus, cut the crap, the whole thing is summarised in the first couple of comments.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

How did Microsoft have a monopoly on Personal Computers? There were plenty of others on the market, although Windows 3.1 and 95 were the best-selling ones.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[thetoadwarrior]

Why should someone be able to clone anyone's software and cause user confusion? From the sounds of it they just don't want it looking the same. I think that's a reasonable request.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[andydread]

You are allowed to compete with Apple's own apps on functionality. What you're not allowed to do is to copy the UI of one of Apple's Apps. That's the reason Evi have been asked to change. Because the UI is too much of a Siri copy.

Yes because only Apple is allowed to shamelessly copy other's work

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[toriver]

Yeah, Google do not prevent you from installing anything you want on your phone, they leave that kind of evil to the manufacturers and carriers instead...

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[toriver]

What market are you talking about? Apple governs their platform like Sony governs PSN, Microsoft governs the XBox etc.

And there are plenty of Fandroids who will tell you that Apple is not dominating in the mobile OS market...

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Their product was superior to the competition when it was released" isn't abuse of monopoly.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[BasilBrush]

People would have trouble mistaking iBooks for Delicious Library. For one thing they aren't even on the same OS. For another the apps are for entirely different purposes. For another every single thing about the apps is different other than the concept of displaying books on book shelves.

Had the boot been on the other foot (DL from Apple, iBooks from DM) iBooks wouldn't have been denied from the iOS AppStore.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Deorus]

Just another reason to avoid the proprietary lock-in hell that is Apple's walled garden. Sure their products are shiny and smooth but you trade all your rights to the device you just forked out enough to buy a car on for that ease of use.

What proprietary lock-in hell? How do they lock you in? At most you could claim that they lock you out, but considering the fact that they tend to use standard protocols and formats for everything (with the dock connector being a historically-justified exception, because there was nothing "standard" when it was created), I fail to see exactly what locks you in to Apple products other than your willingness to stick to the only fully integrated ecosystem that works seamlessly.

Also, what kind of rights are you talking about?

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[starsky51]

I just bought myself an iPod Touch for 150 GBP. My first Apple device. It's reliable, well crafted and easy to use. And, despite the 'proprietary lock-in hell', I'm still able to use Chrome, MS Office and Photoshop - on my laptop.

It's nice to take a stroll around a walled garden from time to time. You should try it.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[BasilBrush]

How did Apple have a monopoly on MP3 players? There were plenty of others on the market although the iPod was the best-selling one.

In a similar way to how Microsoft had a monoploy on PC operating systems when there was Linux and Mac OS around.

Greater than 90% of the market.

And even if they did have a monopoly, in what way did they abuse this monopoly?

They didn't. That's my point.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[FireFury03]

Yeah, Google do not prevent you from installing anything you want on your phone, they leave that kind of evil to the manufacturers and carriers instead...

So buy an unlocked Android phone already

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Deorus]

As a licensed iOS developer I am the proof that you are wrong. I don't have to seek Apple's (or anyone's) approval to run anything signed by me on my iDevices.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[domatic]

I can download apks with my phone's browser and then install them if I like. No dev kit whackery or iTunesery or iCloudery or App Stordery required. Basically, it is much like a real computer.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Deorus]

Obfuscating an interface under big, shiny buttons is not "ease of use".

Nor is that the only thing they do. For instance, Apples is in a league of their own when it comes to accessibility options on both iOS and OS X.

Not to mention no batterly life on the iPhone 4s and a charging cable so short you have to put your $500+ phone on the floor wherever you charge it.

You can plug it to any USB port, doesn't necessarily have to be a wall socket. You can also buy an iPad charger which comes with a modular power cord similar to those found on the MacBook chargers. Finally and regarding the iPhone 4S' battery life, I honestly can't tell the difference between that and any other high end smartphone. What exactly are you comparing it with?

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you really think most people who would use a smartphone would confuse an iPhone with a Galaxy S? I think not...

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[SuricouRaven]

Mostly, yes. Short walls. There are two limitations though. Firstly, you can't install anything that needs root access without resorting to some form of exploit. Carriers love this one, because it lets them install lots of bundled crap on their contract phones that the user (being without root access) has no way to remove. Espicially evil when they install spyware, as has been known to happen. Secondly, most devices are locked to only accepted signed firmware images from the manufacturer - though more their fault than googles.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[dreold]

Sorry, but I call shenanigans:

email client: eMailganizer
Browser: Atomic
MP3 Player: MP3Player [that's the name]

All in the AppStore. Found by a quick google search, no less.

Maybe the reason for the lack of choice in such apps is that there is just not a big market for them since the built-in iOS apps meet the needs of ... wait for it... MOST users.

Suffice it to say, the walled-garden argument is not the end-all reason for the lack of certain apps.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[SuricouRaven]

Providing you don't want root access. If you do, you'd need to use an exploit of some form.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Deorus]

You are allowed to compete with Apple's own apps on functionality. What you're not allowed to do is to copy the UI of one of Apple's Apps. That's the reason Evi have been asked to change. Because the UI is too much of a Siri copy.

Yes because only Apple is allowed to shamelessly copy other's work

The app in question is in the Mac App Store, so the developer has explicitly accepted the same agreement as I have stating that Apple is free to do these things.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[toriver]

"Unwhatnow?" says the hired help at Best Buy.

If not all Android phones are unlocked in this fashion then Android is not. Otherwise you can say that Apple does not have a walled garden since you just need to use an untethered jailbreak.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[kqs]

Really? Your complaints about the iPhone 4s are "hard to use interface", "short battery life", and "short included cable"? Talk about praising with faint damns!

My Galaxy Nexus's interface is slightly harder to use than my iPad's (not a huge deal, but it's certainly not "easier" by any rational definition). Its battery life is about the same as my girlfriend's iPhone 4S, and it came with a charge cable of about the same length. (I bought us both long cables from monoprice.com for a few bucks, so not a big problem.)

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

You could also use Google's walled garden, or Microsoft's walled garden, or RIMs walled garden.

Google doesn't have a walled garden. it's an open park you can walk into and out of all of your own accord. I think you need to look up the definition of "walled garden" or actually use Android for yourself. It's nothing like Apple's system of lockdown.

The definition seems to be "A term used derisively by Apple haters."

"a "walled garden" refers to a carrier or service provider's control over applications, content, and media on platforms (such as mobile devices) and restriction of convenient access to non-approved applications or content".

As android will let you install arbitrary apks with a single checkbox...

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[FireFury03]

"Unwhatnow?" says the hired help at Best Buy.

If not all Android phones are unlocked in this fashion then Android is not. Otherwise you can say that Apple does not have a walled garden since you just need to use an untethered jailbreak.

No, you can go into a shop and _buy_ an unlocked Android phone. No messing around, no geeky stuff, just buy it. My fiancee (who isn't a geek) did exactly this last year - ordered an unlocked Nexus-S from Play.com and stuck a PAYG SIM in it. Let me know when you find an official retailer selling an off the shelf jail broken iOS device complete with manufacturer's warranty.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[TheSpoom]

If your carrier is blocking you from checking the "unknown sources" box, you need a new carrier. (I'm doubtful such a carrier exists considering that Verizon doesn't block it and they tend to be the most overreaching, but hey, I'm open to citations.)

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

can you buy an untethered jailbroken iphone from apple?

because you can buy an unlocked phone from Google...

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[domatic]

Yep. But that was a one time only thing. I installed Cyanogen while I was at it and put a permanent end to any other foolishness that may have been on the phone. Since it is an HTC, it was beaten Senseless in the process. Because it is running Cyanogen, I don't have to worry about OTA updates de-rooting my phone. And while I'm on the subject, I call "rooting" "restoring ownership".

However, every phone I've had would let me tick a "Install non-market applications" box even without rooting. This leaves out certain applications that require root privileges but you can still do things like download the latest K9Mail client from the sourceforge page and install it rather than waiting for it to show up in the Market. And all through software and interfaces on the phone. No management software required.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[GameboyRMH]

You just did smart guy, when you got you Apple developer license. And you can only distribute apps to a limited number of devices with that Apple-provided signing key you have.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Better yet if you don't like the rules don't buy an iPhone. Jail breaking is a cop out by those who think owning and iPhone somehow makes them better, but deep down they know the phone is not right for them.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Daisako]

Why yes, you can. http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_iphone/family/iphone/iphone4s Look below the carriers to "Or get iPhone unlocked and contract-free" They would only work on GSM networks, but still. Before saying something like that you might wanna go to Apple's store and search "unlocked iphone," it is right there.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oooh! Oooh! And don't forget the malware! Gotta love how the Android garden has vicious little malware apps crawling all over the place.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[jo_ham]

You don't understand what antitrust means, clearly.

This may be a stupid policy from Apple, but it's not an antitrust violation since they do not hold a monopoly position in the smartphone market. Well, unless everyone on slashdot has been vastly overstating the market share of Android...

Either Android is "killing" in marketshare, or Apple has a monopoly and is thus exposed to antitrust. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Long overdue!

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a licensed iOS developer [...] I don't have to seek Apple's (or anyone's) approval

I do not think that means what you think it means.

How did you become "a licensed iOS developer" without "Apple's approval"?
And, AFAIK, Apple can still blacklist your dev key and purge your app(s) from the phone.

Also, can you put your apps up on a webpage for other people to download? (hint: no, anyone wishing to use them would need a jailbroken phone)

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a licensed iOS developer I am the proof that you are wrong. I don't have to seek Apple's (or anyone's) approval to run anything signed by me on my iDevices.

You may want to go back and read all the stuff you've signed when you became iOS developer.

I've signed it too.
Yes you can run everything you sign on your development device.
No, you can't publish it in any way without going via Apple policies and App Store.

To do anything near that, you need "enterprise" and pay silly amount of money to Apple for the pleasure.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you install apps that are not on Apple's app store? Didn't think so.

The point was to buy a JAILBROKEN phone. Unlocked != Jailbroken.

It's still the same walled garden.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is only true if you happen to want a Nexus phone. None of the other phones can officially be rooted. Unlocked just means you can put another SIM card in it. It has nothing to do with having root access or the ability to change the ROM. You are talking about things in the UK. That isn't how things are in the US. Buying an unlocked phone is useless to most people because the 4 major networks are all incompatible with each other. ATT and Tmobile are only compatible for 2G service, not 3G and certainly not 4G. Verizon and Sprint are only compatible for 2G, not 3G and not 4G. If you use a lesser service like MetroPCS, good luck trying to get a decent phone to work on their network with all features like 3G, MMS, and visual voicemail.

If you want a non-Nexus phone in the US, you have to buy one that's compatible with your network of choice, buy a new one every time you change carriers, root it, and hope there is a good developer community for it. You are dependent on someone volunteering to make it work with CyanogenMod or otherwise modifying stock roms.

Then, you pretty much have to sign a contract anyways. The carriers won't let you sign up for a normal plan without a contract. They won't offer you a discount if you pay full price for the phone. If you do pay full price for the phone, it's the same phone with the same restrictions. Verizon and Sprint phones are useless in the rest of the world. Having ATT or Tmobile unlock the phone so you can put in a different SIM is only useful if you are going to be taking the phone to other countries. Using prepaid is a horrible idea. You don't 4G service or roaming service on prepaid.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[mikael_j]

Greater than 90% of the market.

Here in Sweden they had nowhere near 90% of the market (although I do know the iPod was wildly popular in the US).

They didn't. That's my point.

Sorry, misread your original post.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[jedidiah]

> That's odd, because you can go to the App Store
> and find plenty of alternate email clients, diallers,
> SMS clients

So where's the one that allows me to clean up ALL my SMS messages with a single button like Android does?

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[jedidiah]

Apple is taking over the world up until the point someone mentions anti-trust. Then suddenly Apple is not taking over the world anymore.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[JazzLad]

Not my current one, but I have bought cars for less.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

The definition seems to be "A term used derisively by Apple haters."

if the shoe fits ....

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Lonewolf666]

Some phone vendors do build a fence around it though, by customizing Android to be a "walled garden" and locking the bootloader.

That is of course the fault of the phone vendors, not the fault of Google.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[JazzLad]

unlocked != jailbroken in your example

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[tlhIngan]

I think there is some confusion about the dictionary definition of monopoly and the legal definition. In the UK, at least, you are deemed to hold a monopoly position within a market if you control more than 25%, which apple certainly does in the smartphone market.

Well, I'd go after Google first then. I hear something called "Android" is WAY more popular than the iPhone. In fact, didn't they just admit that there's over 300M Androids out there?

I mean, aren't Android phones outselling iPhones? If being outsold still means you have a monopoly, that's a very strange state of affairs.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[dwightk]

The first iPod was 5GB and it had "less space than a Nomad"...

http://slashdot.org/story/01/10/23/1816257/apple-releases-ipod

what are you talking about?

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Ironhandx]

Oh, I'm sorry I forgot to mention creatives piece of shit that would scrap the hard drive on a drop of 3 feet, because it was, you know, a hard drive. Besides the fact that it was over double the size of the iPod. There is a reason the Nomad didn't sell very well.

The specific storage technology I'm talking about incorporated some very very good motion/drop resistance.

The first version was 5gb, I get it confused in my memory with the gen immediately afterwards that had a 2gb version, my apologies.

That just makes it worse however. The best MP3 player with the iPods level of endurance on the market when it was released was based on solid state memory and only had about 512mb-1gb of storage on an expensive model, more expensive in many cases than the 2gb iPod.

Also: Just look at the bloody Nomad. It probably caused a womans ovaries to shrivel up on sight. Nearly anything would have been better but they went with "Biege is fantastic and we like that its been the generic color of all computer hardware for the last 30 years+".

Having seen a Nomad IRL the form factor was crap too but even if they had just made the thing black it would have been more acceptable.

The Nomad II was creative trying to give people what they want and failing. Less storage than an iPod(due to solid state storage to get the size) and much worse UI.

Not that the iPod had a terribly fantastic UI, but it did work, and keep working.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[BasilBrush]

I'm not sure quite what you mean, I haven't seen the app you refer to on Android, and I haven't seen all of the 500,000 apps available on the iOS App Store. Why don't you go take a look for yourself.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[scot4875]

This isn't the walled garden in question.

And, if users want one, there have always been and always will be unlocked phones available for purchase, if it is an important feature to them.

--Jeremy

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[scot4875]

The definition seems to be "A term used derisively by Apple haters."

Yeah, that's the definition in common use on the inside of the reality distortion field.

--Jeremy

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[datavirtue]

If the carriers can't control the dang OS they will not use it. End of story.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[scot4875]

Actually, you are proof that he's right. As long as you don't care that nobody else will ever be able to use anything signed by you without Apple's blessing, you're good to go.

However, that limitation isn't good enough for some of us. You don't have to give one cent to Google to make an Android app available to other people to run.

--Jeremy

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[scot4875]

What proprietary lock-in hell? How do they lock you in?

See those apps you bought from the iTunes store? You'll never be able to use them on any other manufacturer's phone.

See that alarm clock with the iPod charging dock you bought for your iPhone? You'll never be able to use it with any other manufacturer's phone.

--Jeremy

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[scot4875]

500,000 apps available on the iOS App Store. Why don't you go take a look for yourself.

I tried doing this the other day. Turns out the only way you can search through Apple's store is if you install iTunes (not going to happen) or browse from an iOS device (I don't have any). Otherwise, you're limited to browsing via the web alphabetically by category. Difficult to believe that such an obvious feature is missing from Apple's web interface? It's true!

--Jeremy

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[coinreturn]

The definition seems to be "A term used derisively by Apple haters."

Yeah, that's the definition in common use on the inside of the reality distortion field.

--Jeremy

Nice try, but truly, only haters even use the term.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[scot4875]

You bought the FUD and are doing your part as an Apple user to keep spreading it.

I don't give a shit what you use, honestly, if it meets your needs. Just seriously, you and all the other Apple users, quit telling the rest of us that we're wrong for not being satisfied with what Apple offers, and quit spreading uninformed bullshit about the stuff you don't choose to use.

--Jeremy

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[mcgrew]

I paid $500 for an '88 Chevy in 2004. Drove it for about three years before the rack and pinion went out on it. So yeah, more expensive than a car.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[shutdown -p now]

Microsoft (MS Mobile)

There's no such thing as "MS Mobile" - did you mean Windows Mobile? That has been dead for a while now. And Windows Phone does use a walled garden model largely mimicking that of iOS - in particular, apps can only be installed from the store.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[BasilBrush]

Ah well, they don't really have to cater for people who don't and won't have iOS devices anyway.

If I knew what it was you were asking for I'd have a quick look for you, see if I could find it.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[tepples]

Of course you can, for an extra $99 per year that you own the phone.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Deorus]

We're talking about the concept of walled-gardens here, which none none of that is a part of, so stop moving the goal posts and accept defeat.

Also, another correction to your blatant misconception: I can distribute whatever I wish to any other licensed developer, who will then be able to sign the code and run it themselves without any limitations.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Deorus]

How did you become "a licensed iOS developer" without "Apple's approval"?

Accepted an agreement with lots of restrictions regarding distribution through the app store as well as non-disclosure clauses covering the beta software that I get access to, but nothing preventing me from running anything on my own iDevices.

And, AFAIK, Apple can still blacklist your dev key and purge your app(s) from the phone.

Sure, if I try to deceive them during the App Store reviewing phase, which is covered by the agreement that I had to accept. This doesn't prevent me from distributing anything through any other means, though.

Also, can you put your apps up on a webpage for other people to download? (hint: no, anyone wishing to use them would need a jailbroken phone)

Yes, of course! The easiest (but not the only) way to do this would be to provide the complete Xcode project with sources and have people build and sign the app themselves (usually simply pressing Command+. is enough to compile, sign, install, and run, much easier than ./configure && make install, and everyone is OK with the latter). No jailbreaking involved, the only thing required is the ability to digitally sign apps, meaning a developer license.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Deorus]

No, you can't publish it in any way without going via Apple policies and App Store.

Please tell me exactly what in the agreement prevents me from publishing the Xcode project with the sources, because I actually read it carefully and found nothing about this publication method there (or any restrictions to publishing anything this way, for that matter).

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Deorus]

See those apps you bought from the iTunes store? You'll never be able to use them on any other manufacturer's phone.

Incompatible technologies.

See that alarm clock with the iPod charging dock you bought for your iPhone? You'll never be able to use it with any other manufacturer's phone.

I do recall mentioning the dock connector as a historically-justified exception...

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[rsborg]

I think there is some confusion about the dictionary definition of monopoly and the legal definition. In the UK, at least, you are deemed to hold a monopoly position within a market if you control more than 25%, which apple certainly does in the smartphone market.

Also, and I admit it might be a tenuous, you could argue that apps for iOS is a single market, and therefore apple has a 100% monopoly on the supply of apps for iOS, a position that I think most of us agree the abuse to one degree or another.

So therefore Toyota should be considered a monopoly for their 100% domination of the Prius market? No, it doesn't work that way. Markets (at least for the purposes of anti-trust) cannot by definition refer to specific products or brands, or the entire meaning of monopoly would be meaningless.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[GameboyRMH]

So if you can pay annual fees to the OS creator for a license to run any apps you want, but never be able to sell them or distribute them freely, then it's not really a walled garden?

Nope not buying it.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

I refuse to use things that tie me directly to their control.

as an apple user

So you either do not refuse, or you are not an apple user. Which is it?

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[ultranova]

If the carriers can't control the dang OS they will not use it. End of story.

No, it isn't. In most of the world what the carriers use has nothing to do with what the users use - the carrier gives you a SIM card which identifies your account, you buy whatever phone you want and put the SIM card in there, and everything just works.

What this really demonstrates is that different but related markets should be decoupled from each other, by force if necessary. Also, open standards are vital for a functional market economy.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is only true if you happen to want a Nexus phone. None of the other phones can officially be rooted.

Many if not most HTC Phones can be bootloader unlocked (officially, via HTC's website), if they're locked at all.

In either case, this does't meant that Android is a walled garden. It just means that Android allows for walled gardens. And every other type of garden. With IOS, it's walled or nothing.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Accepted an agreement with lots of restrictions regarding distribution through the app store

I think you might be surprised about what you actually agreed to.
You've already violated the license by publicly discussing it.
It also disallows app distribution by any means other than the appstore.

And, AFAIK, Apple can still blacklist your dev key and purge your app(s) from the phone.

[...] This doesn't prevent me from distributing anything through any other means, though.

If your dev key gets blacklisted, any apps signed by your key are nuked, regardless of how they ended up on the phone.
No AppStore required.

people build and sign the app themselves

In other words: no.
At least not without making a $100 donation to Apple (for the dev license) and not including the Mac they'll have to buy to run Xcode (vmware/hackintosh notwithstanding).
Understanding how to build/sign/deploy their own apps might help too.

Sounds a bit different from "Click a link to an APK (for Android) or JAD (for Blackberry)".
But hey, I'm happy that you're happy in the walled garden - but please don't try to lecture me about how "open" it is.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[jedidiah]

I can do this for Android.

I can do this for Amazon.

Why do I have to "buy the whole cow" before I even know whether or not I am lactose intolerant?

Your cult mentality allows for mediocrity to be not merely tolerated but actively encouraged.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[jedidiah]

Why don't you? Clearly this possibility is not quite so feasible as you would like to pretend. Otherwise you would have been able to trivially and quickly offer up a suitable app or even several of them.

"not sure what you mean"

Quite often the user communities that arise around Apple products are as limited as the products themselves.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Deorus]

You can distribute them freely, just not through the app store, and anyone wanting to run them will need a developer license (but then again they'll also need an iDevice, so you could consider the license part of the price).

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[GameboyRMH]

Oh dear you've bent sweet lady logic into a pretzel. You could probably call Windows open source under similar arguments.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[leenks]

Oh, I'm sorry I forgot to mention creatives piece of shit that would scrap the hard drive on a drop of 3 feet, because it was, you know, a hard drive. Besides the fact that it was over double the size of the iPod. There is a reason the Nomad didn't sell very well.

The original iPod had a hard drive (and so do some current models).

Also: Just look at the bloody Nomad. It probably caused a womans ovaries to shrivel up on sight. Nearly anything would have been better but they went with "Biege is fantastic and we like that its been the generic color of all computer hardware for the last 30 years+".

My Nomad was blue, the other model was silver as far as I remember (but I don't remember well either...)

Having seen a Nomad IRL the form factor was crap too but even if they had just made the thing black it would have been more acceptable.

The form factor was about the same as a portable CD player - the market that they were clearly targeting with that product.

The Nomad II was creative trying to give people what they want and failing. Less storage than an iPod(due to solid state storage to get the size) and much worse UI.

No doubt because nothing Creative ever produced had a good UI, like pretty much every other alternative to the iPod.

Not that the iPod had a terribly fantastic UI, but it did work, and keep working.

Really? The original iPod UI was well thought out. The clickwheel models (followed by the multitouch versions) took this to a whole new level. People don't need to remember how to use it by rote, it just works pretty much how you'd expect it to intuitively work (once you realise the touch clickwheel is actually a rotary device).

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[BasilBrush]

Installing iTunes for free isn't buying the whole cow. It's not buying any of the cow.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[BasilBrush]

I don't know what you mean because you didn't express yourself clearly. As you've made no effort to in your follow up message to explain what it is you want I can only conclude you're a troll.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[The_Wilschon]

Samsung (the handset manufacturer) sells an unlocked version of my phone on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Unlocked-Smartphone-Internal-Touchscreen/dp/B004QTBQ2C/ref=sr_1_1?s=wireless&ie=UTF8&qid=1330470133&sr=1-1 It's more expensive when you don't buy the carrier subsidy, but finding legitimate unlocked phones is easy to do. T-Mobile actually offers a set of contracts ("value" or "bring your own phone" plans) that do not come with subsidized phones, but that are cheaper by the month to compensate. Unlocked phones are a reality, whether you like it or not.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[The_Wilschon]

You appear to be out of touch with reality in that what you have just said is patently untrue. For instance: T-Mobile offers "value" or "bring your own phone" contracts that allow you to use whatever handset you like with whatever software and OS you like on their network. You even pay less per month (but don't get a handset subsidy) for this.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[The_Wilschon]

So, what you're saying is that if you buy Apple's hardware and purchase additional software and hardware to complement it, that the barrier to switching to another handset manufacturer's products is in fact higher than the same barrier if you had not started out with Apple. That is .... exactly what lock-in means.

Imagine I bought an iPhone today. In order to do many useful things with it, I would desire to purchase various apps, and I might even purchase extra chargers, an alarm clock dock, a speaker dock for my living room, etc. Now, suppose that HTC comes out with a new handset that I think is really the best thing ever, and I decide I'm going to shell out the money to switch. Suddenly, all the money that I spent on secondary things has to be spent all over again because of "incompatible technologies" and "historically-justified exceptions". I'll probably decide not to switch to the new HTC handset I really liked, and I'll buy a new iPhone instead.

Now imagine I had bought a Samsung phone to start with. In order to do many useful things with it, I would purchase various apps, and I might even purchase extra chargers, an alarm clock dock, a speaker dock for my living room, etc. Now, suppose that HTC comes out with a new handset that I think is really the best thing ever, and I decide I'm going to shell out the money to switch. Suddenly, all the money that I spent on secondary things ... doesn't have to be spent all over again, because the handset manufacturer is decoupled from compatibility with those secondary things. I'll probably switch manufacturers, and if Samsung wants to regain my business, they'd better make a better phone than HTC next time around.

The reasons for the lock-in might be justified historical accidents, and they might be deliberate and malicious. It doesn't matter. They still cause lock-in, and lock-in is still unpleasant at best.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I've never been sure of the meaning of "walled garden". For example most gardens I know of have a gate that you can use to exit

And in the case of iOS that gate is locked by Apple, which is why their 'walled garden' is a problem. As for Android that gate is controlled by the user, if they want to open it and go out they can.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[crafty.munchkin]

Done exactly that. At my last job I was given a Motorola Defy. Sure, I could download heaps of cool little apps with it. But the bloody thing was so bogged down wwith all the pre-loaded crap that the carrier insisted it needed to have, which couldn't be removed without rooting the phone, which I couldn't do as it was a work phone. The Motoblur software was a festering pile of shit that was so un-intuitive to use, and often crashed. During the 11 months I was there, one software update came out for that model phone on Telstra, to Android 2.2.2 - when all the other phones were getting updates to 2.3.x. Compared with my personal iphone 3gs, the Motorola Defy was a pile of shit. Yes I could get a different launcher app, which I did, but after about a month, everything would crash on the defy and i'd need to do a factory reset, reinstall all the apps and reconfigure everything wasting a couple of hours each time.

And then there was the hardware faults... 25 days after I got it, it's internal speaker stopped working and the only way I could hear people who I called or called me was if I put them onto Speaker or used the hands free kit. The phone got swapped over for a replacement, and 34 days after that the same problem developed. At which point, outside of the 30 day period for replacement under warranty, it had to be repaired. It was sent off to be repaired and was gone for 5 weeks, during which I had a non-smart phone to use for work.

Was enough of a bad experience that I couldn't in good conscience recommend an android phone for anyone. Sure, there are probably much better android phones than this pile of shit, but I went into it with an open mind and quite disillusioned with my 3gs, and came out very disappointed.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[sjames]

AT&T made a lame attempt at it at one time but it was easy to remove their disable. Even without that you could use the USB interface to push an app to the phone. As far as I know, they don't bother with it anymore.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not everyone thinks that the locked-down console market is particularly healthy either.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[mjwx]

You could also use Google's walled garden, or Microsoft's walled garden, or RIMs walled garden.

Google doesn't have a walled garden. it's an open park you can walk into and out of all of your own accord. I think you need to look up the definition of "walled garden" or actually use Android for yourself. It's nothing like Apple's system of lockdown.

The definition seems to be "A term used derisively by Apple haters."

The word hater is "a term used derisively by people who cant form a rational argument".

Seeing as you didn't look up the definition of Walled Garden, here's it is definition for you,

A walled garden is an analogy used in various senses in information technology. In the telecommunications and media industries, a "walled garden" refers to a carrier or service provider's control over applications, content, and media on platforms and restriction of convenient access to non-approved applications or content

Android does not restrict conveineint access to non-walled sources, Apple on the other hand does

More generally, a "walled garden" refers to a closed or exclusive set of information services provided for users. This is in contrast to giving consumers unrestricted access to applications and content.

So in fact, Android is in contrast to a walled garden, which means it's in contrast to what apple does (closed or exclusive set of information services provided).

So with a very derisive snort, it was used correctly.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[Ironhandx]

The control system itself was fine, the display of the menus etc was the problem on the iPod, but something fairly quickly overcome.

As I said it wasn't fantastic, but I didn't say it was bad either.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[phayes]

Bullshit. I know people that have jailbroken phones because they tried & abandoned prior android phones (PITA to upgrade when the maker refuses to do it, few HW options compared to the iPhone, etc) but wanted apps not in apple's appstore. Calling a well reasoned judgement a cop-out just shows your continuing inferiority complex.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[thesandtiger]

I don't think you understand how this whole anti-trust thing works.

Designing products that work together and drive sales of each other is not illegal. Designing products that only work on your other products is also not illegal.

What would be illegal is if Apple used their market clout to force providers of content to ONLY list their content with Apple or to put significant artificial restrictions on competing products. For example, if Apple told AT&T that they had to throttle bandwidth on all non-iPhones on the AT&T network, or forced the RIAA to charge 2x the price of iTunes prices for selling anywhere else, or required software developers developing for iOS to not develop for any other platform while their products were for sale at the app store, etc.

They could also get in trouble if they intentionally crippled software and products that compete with theirs on their platforms - any MP3 not bought on iTunes was limited to 32k quality, or Office were purposely forced to crash, or apps that compete with Apple apps were otherwise crippled by iOS. Apple has not done anything like this.

I have an iPod filled with music I didn't buy through Apple; a Mac mini that boots to OSX, Windows and Ubuntu (and with no Apple software other than what came with the OS unless you count the dev kit). My iPad is probably the only thing I have that only has software from the app store (or from other iOS developers as I am one), but I have plenty of apps on it that are less expensive (or free) vs. Apple apps that are not free.

The ONLY place I could really see that there's even the beginning of a possible case against Apple for being anti-competitive would be in their supply chain - they have so much cash, so much market clout that they can basically keep other hardware manufacturers out of the game (or make them pay through the nose) by tying up supply for the near term. Even then, I don't know if just being efficient and willing to take a risk by putting in substantial long-term orders is anti-competitive.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[coinreturn]

So with a very derisive snort, it was used correctly.

I'd say the "derisive snort" proves my point of "hater." As to the so-called "definition," the entire wikipedia page was created in 2010, example "Apple iOS" was added in 2011, and all references on the page are December 2011, so clearly the term is recent (post-iOS and -Android), so my claim "used by haters" is completely accurate.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Now imagine I had bought a Samsung phone to start with. In order to do many useful things with it, I would purchase various apps, and I might even purchase extra chargers, an alarm clock dock, a speaker dock for my living room, etc. Now, suppose that HTC comes out with a new handset that I think is really the best thing ever, and I decide I'm going to shell out the money to switch. Suddenly, all the money that I spent on secondary things ... doesn't have to be spent all over again, because the handset manufacturer is decoupled from compatibility with those secondary things. I'll probably switch manufacturers, and if Samsung wants to regain my business, they'd better make a better phone than HTC next time around.

Actually, you are much better off with Androids, because you can not even buy any of those peripherals for any of them.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

500,000 apps available on the iOS App Store. Why don't you go take a look for yourself.

I tried doing this the other day. Turns out the only way you can search through Apple's store is if you install iTunes (not going to happen) or browse from an iOS device (I don't have any). Otherwise, you're limited to browsing via the web alphabetically by category. Difficult to believe that such an obvious feature is missing from Apple's web interface? It's true!

--Jeremy

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Aitunes.apple.com+whatyourlookingfor

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Antitrust cases aren't strictly about monopolies, it's about abusing dominance in a market, for example to push into other markets. Market domination has no clear cut definition.

If, say, one would successfully argue that Apple is dominating in mobile OS market, then using that position to promote Apple's web browser would be illegal.

And I thought Android dominated the smartphone market - the Fandroids must have been lying.

Re:Is this Apple or MS?

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Apple is taking over the world up until the point someone mentions anti-trust. Then suddenly Apple is not taking over the world anymore.

Android is like totally beating Apple - until you want to press anti-trust charges.

Can Siri get it done?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple: Siri, please pull rival app from app store
Siri: Would you like cheese with that?

Oh Apple.

[minus9]

Don't be Evi.

Which localization?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are we talking voice inflection and pronunciation, or is it vocabulary? I would be surprised either way since I can adapt to UK English in at most a few minutes.

Re:Which localization?

[sjwt]

yes, but you are not a hard coded program, you are the current top of the line adaptive learning system.

Re:Which localization?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just remember to go in for a service every 10,000 adaptations.

Re:Which localization?

[gmhowell]

yes, but you are not a hard coded program, you are the current top of the line adaptive learning system.

Given a major pleasure center is so close to a waste disposal area, I'd still say his engineer needs to work on a better model for v2.0.

Re:Which localization?

[Deorus]

I would suppose the localization there has to do with geolocation services that currently are only offered in the US. You can't ask Siri for a cab in the UK, for example.

Re:Which localization?

[geminidomino]

As I understand it, the two may even overlap in certain models.

Talk about fragmentation!

Re:Which localization?

[mcgrew]

Given a major pleasure center is so close to a waste disposal area, I'd still say his engineer needs to work on a better model for v2.0.

That's a feature, not a bug. It's designed to keep your mouth away. Works ok for most people.

Re:Which localization?

[gmhowell]

Fragmentation or polymorphism?

Repost? Mistitled?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't this a repost of a /. earlier this week?
Also, to my knowledge Evi was there before Siri, so Siri would be a clone of Evi, not vice versa.

Lack of localization?

[lemur666]

People who like in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SGxKhUuZ0Rc

Evi not much of a competitor, IMHO

[CyberSnyder]

At least 70% of my attempts to use Evi result in some version of a "unable to process your request" error.

Re:Evi not much of a competitor, IMHO

[thegarbz]

I concur. While the text to speech engine and the interpreter seem to work correctly it suffers from a lack of information.

When I tried saying "What is the weather in Sydney" I got an answer saying that the functionality is coming soon and to try Accuweather instead. Why not just pipe that request to Google and return the text at the top?

Other classic ones are maths problems. I asked "What is five plus five." It correctly interpreted "5+5?" and then said "This appears to be a maths question, try asking the question in words."
I eventually beat it by asking "What is the addition of 5 and 5?" and it correctly answered 10.

Seriously the program has some incredibly fundamental flaws.

Re:Evi not much of a competitor, IMHO

[IAmGarethAdams]

Why not just pipe that request to Google and return the text at the top?

I think you should double check Google's terms and conditions for automated access

Re:Evi not much of a competitor, IMHO

[alienzed]

Which is horrible if this thing is advertising itself as being 'like' Siri.

Re:Evi not much of a competitor, IMHO

[Phoghat]

When I tried saying "What is the weather in Sydney" I got an answer saying that the functionality is coming soon and to try Accuweather instead. Why not just pipe that request to Google and return the text at the top?

Because Google /= Apple, I.E. Google /= Bing

Re:Evi not much of a competitor, IMHO

[Anonymous Coward]

So it's not a cloe of siri. It's a copy!

Re:Evi not much of a competitor, IMHO

[Cyko_01]

that was the case when evi was originally slashdotted (SURPRISE) but now it actually works quite reliably; and although it doesn't always directly answer the question it can usually provide a way for you to find the answer quickly

Re:Evi not much of a competitor, IMHO

[asylumx]

What is /=? Is it the same as != but from a language I'm not familiar with? Or is it short for =/=? The last time I saw it, it meant "divide & assign" (just like how += means add & assign in several languages). I know I'm way off topic but I'm fairly distracted by the use of this symbol in this way.

Re:Evi not much of a competitor, IMHO

[Phoghat]

not equal to

Re:Evi not much of a competitor, IMHO

[thesandtiger]

But I was assured by everyone on Slashdot that Siri was trivial to duplicate in its entirety and not remotely challenging, interesting or innovative, and that Android had the exact same (and better) functionality forever anyway.

So clearly your personal experiences with a competitor to Siri must be wrong. *Ahem*

Kidding aside, how in the hell did you come up with "What is the addition of 5 and 5?" Seriously - you must be phenomenal at Infocom type "guess the verb" text adventure games because such a phrasing would never occur to me.

Re:Evi not much of a competitor, IMHO

[thegarbz]

Well shit how about they just open the results in the browser. That alone would make it infinitely more useful that what it's doing at the moment.

Re:Evi not much of a competitor, IMHO

[thegarbz]

Because Google /= Apple, I.E. Google /= Bing

So tell me again how Google /= Apple is relevant at all to what I said?

Re:Evi not much of a competitor, IMHO

[thegarbz]

Kidding aside, how in the hell did you come up with "What is the addition of 5 and 5?" Seriously - you must be phenomenal at Infocom type "guess the verb" text adventure games because such a phrasing would never occur to me.

It took a lot of effort I assure you. I am still trying to figure out how to get it to squareroot without it complaining that it looks like I'm asking a maths question. I think Evi didn't take to kindly either to me shouting in the phone "Then do the *expletive* math already!"

I be continue to be...

[thegarbz]

I be continue to be horrendously disappoint at Slashdot's lack of editing!

Wtf?

[Anonymous Coward]

Siri doesn't understand British english? I can understand if it doesn't support german, french and other non-english languages, but doesn't understand different dialects of english seems bad.

Also, Siri is only on the iPhone 4s, not on any other model so is it really breaching that clause?

Re:Wtf?

[Captain Hook]

Siri doesn't understand British english? I can understand if it doesn't support german, french and other non-english languages, but doesn't understand different dialects of english seems bad.

If you think about it, it makes sense.

A different language is a different language and as a result rules must be explicitly programmed for those languages and everyone understands that.

English sounds English to a human ear, the syntax is based on the same rules but the usage of the language varies a lot around the world. Meaning is coloured by local culture.

For example, in India, it considered rude to ever say No to a request, so the first response to a request is normally Yes, followed by a qualification. In the UK, that cultural bias to saying No doesn't exist, so when we say Yes, we really mean Yes. The same language, using the same syntax but the important part of the sentence comes in different places because of the local culture.

The problem is that humans are really good at deciphering meaning from what is effectively errors in the communication protocol and so everyone tends to think English is just English with strange pronunciation and so tend to over look the need for specific rules for each region.

Re:Wtf?

[rolfwind]

I know a lot of immigrants from Europe. Their accents are there but it's not bad, they are completely understandable to the average American. In the past, some of them tried Dragon to poor to mediocre success and Siri is no better, if not worse.

And Siri should be better, the inquiries are often simple, repeated commands. But Siri doesn't seem to ever learn. It would be so simple to set up profiles to train it to compensate to some degree, but like most computer programs, the human has to conform to it and not the other way around. Sad.

Seeing one guy ask for "wedder today" and seeing the program never learn that they mean "weather" is disheartening.

Re:Wtf?

[Anonymous Coward]

*facepalm*

Re:Wtf?

[Deorus]

Siri supports US English (speaks in the default female voice everyone as heard), UK English (low pitched male voice), AU English (different female voice, better than the US voice, in my opinion), French (effeminate-sounding male voice, as you would expect from any French guy), and German (the best sounding female voice in my opinion). The localization issues are most likely related to geolocation services not offered outside of the US, such the integration with Maps and search for local services. As I understand it, in some cases it won't even tell you the current time or weather because the city you are in or closest to is not in the database, even if consulting the time would be just as simple as obtaining the device's time.

Re:Wtf?

[Plammox]

look:
US English: "Buuuk Aiirrn Aiiirrrpoñññtmarnt"
UK English: "BoOK A_n Appouyintmnt"

Yes exaggerated, and in improvised phonetics, but imagine a spectrum analyser who has to sort out that these two sound clips mean the same. UK English is absolutely not the same. When did you last order a pint in London? Don't get me started on Northern vs. Southern accents.

Re:Wtf?

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet Android's voice recognition works just as well with English from both sides of the Atlantic. One would imagine it's harder for American accents to be correctly interpreted due to the general poor enunciation of the populous, especially with the "t" being crushed to "d".

Re:Wtf?

[Anonymous Coward]

Worse than that - Siri doesn't do what it claims on TV ads (which is quite a big deal in the UK).

A friend of mine has a 4S, so he tried the exact same voice prompts as in the TV ad...

"How does my day look?"
"Will I need an umbrella today?"
"Remind me to get milk when I leave work"
"tell my wife I'm going to make it"

Not one of them even vaguely did what it claims to do on the ad.

FWIW, I tried the same with Android, and got no further (and notice that it's even less well integrated with the rest of the phone).

Re:Wtf?

[netwarerip]

This should be easy to resolve, they just need a little table with translations:

US English -------- British English
Bathroom ------------ Loo
TV----------------------- Telly
Awesome dude! --- Jolly good old chap!
Greetings, sir ------ ‘Ello Guvna
Cigarette ------------- Fag
Horse-faced --------- Female
Toothbrush ---------- N/A

Re:Wtf?

[QuantumPete]

English sounds English to a human ear, the syntax is based on the same rules but the usage of the language varies a lot around the world. Meaning is coloured by local culture.

Exactly! After all when a bouncer throws you out of a pub in the UK by saying: "I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to leave..." he's neither afraid nor is he asking.

Re:Wtf?

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't just accents but word usage. The sentence, "I'm going down to the chemist's to pick up a torch and some fags." has an ENTIRELY different meaning in the UK vs the US.

Re:Wtf?

[Anonymous Coward]

For example, in India, it considered rude to ever say No to a request, so the first response to a request is normally Yes, followed by a qualification. In the UK, that cultural bias to saying No doesn't exist, so when we say Yes, we really mean Yes.

Men are from the UK, women are from India...

Re:Wtf?

[rogerz]

Siri supports US English (speaks in the default female voice everyone as heard), UK English (low pitched male voice), AU English (different female voice, better than the US voice, in my opinion), French (effeminate-sounding male voice, as you would expect from any French guy), and German (the best sounding female voice in my opinion).

You are confusing synthesis with recognition.

Siri and Evi both use Nuance's automatic speech recognition (ASR) technology. This technology can support both US and UK English (among many others), depending on which models are used. Presumably, this can be configured by the application software, based on the location of the device and/or user setup (I do not have a smart phone, so I'm not sure if the latter is supported). The Nuance technology also adapts to the user's acoustics and word usage over time, so, in theory, a UK-accented speaker could start with the US English model and it (their speaker-dependent model) would eventually have "moved over" into their space. Not optimal, but it can certainly work, with patience on the user's part. With the correct model and/or adaptation, the vast majority of adult speakers will be able to get their "words recognized" by the ASR technology.

You are correct that the localization issues impact the ability to then respond intelligently to map queries, etc. But that's not all.

The "natural language understanding" (NLU) layer - which includes more general query processing - is also extremely location/domain dependent, and the adaptation technology here is much less advanced than with ASR. So, the main value-added by the Evi application (relative to Siri) is very likely to be an NLU framework that is regionalized. I'm sure Apple has the capability to make their NLU domain-specific; it's mainly a matter of data collection and training.

Re:Wtf?

[ewanm89]

Yeah, just in London alone there are about 3 different enough accents to throw off any pattern matching algorithm.

Re:Wtf?

[mcgrew]

That's another difference between American English and British English. Here it's "Out. Now. Don't make me kick your ass!"

In the nicer bars it's simply "OK, you're gonna hafta leave."

In the ghetto they don't say anything, they just lift you off the floor and throw you out bodily.

Re:Wtf?

[The_Wilschon]

My hovercraft is full of eels? Bouncy, bouncy?

Apple not pulling Evi app, working with developers

[Max Rool]

I would like to point out this article http://www.theverge.com/2012/2/27/2828283/sources-apple-not-pulling-evi-app-working-with-developers-to-avoid which among other things states that "... the app remains in the App Store, and according to sources familiar with the matter, Apple is attempting to work with the developers on bumping out those similarities, rather than just pulling the product." Anyway it seems that Apple may have reconsidered their position on this, which is probably a good thing for the small guys.

However....

[htnprm]

...A million similar fart apps is all good though.

Re:However....

[Anonymous Coward]

That's only until Apple adds built-in iFart app in iPhone 5.

Re:However....

[Anonymous Coward]

There are far, far more fart apps on the 40 android market stores than on the AppStore.
New ones aren't accepted anyway.

Disclaimer : I do not work for Apple. Unfortunately.

Re:However....

[PatPending]

That's only until Apple adds built-in iFart app in iPhone 5.

I'm gassing that'll be a stinker.

Re:However....

[icebraining]

There are far, far more fart apps on the 40 android market stores than on the AppStore.

That's because the Android Market is open.

App Store has the disavantages of being closed without the advantages of banning the 400+ fart apps.

Re:However....

[GameboyRMH]

That's because the guy running the app store has a monopoly on fart apps:

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/08/apple-fart-apps/all/1

Name brand vs. store brand

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the same as a supermarket not wanting to sell a name brand item because it's a 99% copy of their store brand item.
They have every right not to sell the product. But in a digital world, it's somehow not accepted?

Re:Name brand vs. store brand

[Eric Freyhart]

I agree. They made a product that people wanted to buy, knowing or not knowing that Apple owns the product they purchased and will continue to restrict anything on it unless Apple can make a buck. I want people to buy Apple products, and I want them to continue to think they are "bright" or "creative" because they purchased these magical devices. It gives me the edge on everyone else who are trying to talk into their phones in the elevator when I am getting real work done.

Re:Name brand vs. store brand

[icebraining]

I don't know what supermarkets you have there, but here they have very similar - I'd say 99% in presentation (not taste) - store and name brands being sold side by side.

don't be a PR tool here.

[YesIAmAScript]

The only source for this info is the developer itself and they have an obvious reason to put it out there. Not only does it get them PR ("The app so good Apple doesn't want you to have it!") but it may lead to impulse sales since once an app is pulled you get to keep it if you already bought it.

There is no inkling from Apple. And now the developer is even backing down, so that they have a convenient answer when people ask why their app was never pulled.

What does this have to do with Steve Jobs?

[qxcv]

Steve Jobs might not be around any more to enforce some of Apple's stricter policies, but that doesn't mean the company is letting it all hang loose.

Because that's the job of a CEO. To take charge of policing their company's third party developer community.
 
The fact that most CEOs don't get their hands dirty with the day-to-day work of the company is the reason that Microsoft hasn't imploded after years of being headed up by an overweight chimpanzee.

Re:What does this have to do with Steve Jobs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because that's the job of a CEO. To take charge of policing their company's third party developer community.

Generating buzz and maintaining healthy relationships with your partner companies is very much a part of the CEO's job as the public face.

Unless the CEO is king and their partners are sacrificial pawns, of course.

The fact that most CEOs don't get their hands dirty with the day-to-day work of the company is the reason that Microsoft hasn't imploded after years of being headed up by an overweight chimpanzee.

Developers, developers, developers...
Monkey Man may be a moron when it comes to steering MS' strategic direction but he's not completely incompetent.

Re:What does this have to do with Steve Jobs?

[GameboyRMH]

I remember the good ol' days when third party developers weren't policed...

Re:What does this have to do with Steve Jobs?

[Tablizer]

and maintaining healthy relationships with your partner companies is very much a part of the CEO's job as the public face.

Jobs eagerly pissed on partners when it suited his goals. Don't expect any significant change.

Does anyone use Siri?

[Rik Sweeney]

It just seems a bit gimmicky to me. Maybe in a few more years it'll be common place, but at the moment it's something you show to people and then go back to entering information by hand.

misleading

[Tom]

Supposedly Evi will be continue to be allowed on iOS if it alters its interface to be dissimilar enough from Siri to placate Apple.

Which is not an entirely unreasonable request. Apple's strength is massively in brand recognition, so making sure your customers aren't confused about what is and what isn't an Apple product makes a lot of sense.

Plus they didn't just pull it, they apparently told the developers what they were concerned about and asked for their cooperation.

I fail to see where the news story is in this one.

WTF? Whatsapp iMessage?

[bronney]

Whatsapp just texted me a big fuck you to iMessage. Bunch of wankers.

Re:WTF? Whatsapp iMessage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Man I'm out of touch, that went straight over my head - and here I was thinking I was a nerd....

Anyone care to explain what that sentence means?

I've not had much experience with iDevices - I think that shows :)

Re:WTF? Whatsapp iMessage?

[GameboyRMH]

Experience with iDevices does not contribute to your nerd score. Ownership of iDevices carries a penalty.

Re:WTF? Whatsapp iMessage?

[jo_ham]

It does give you +5 chat up skill though.

Although that might just be the lack of neckbeard chafing. ;)

Voice-driven devices

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the deal with Siri? Is it good or is it whack?

Re:Apple not pulling Evi app, working with develop

[gmhowell]

Anyway it seems that Apple may have reconsidered their position on this, which is probably a good thing for the small guys.

Or maybe the news reports were incorrect? Or maybe the commenters engaged in knee jerk reactions due to an irrational hatred that is in some yin-yang cosmic balance with the reality distortion field?

I just installed it.

[leuk_he]

I never heart of evi, it is a 3 star (fart apps get 5 starts since theydo whtat they are supposed to do ...always...even show fart adds) app on android market. But since it is free, i tried installing it. Now if only it manages to integrate better in the OS....

(open email/nvaigation for me...)

I bet it doesn't work the other way around

[Anonymous Coward]

How many times has Apple STOLEN really good apps to integrate into the OS, and then delist them from the App Store? Hmmmm. I wonder.

Siri fine in uk

[Truedat]

Hi, UK user here, I have to disagree with the summary when it says:

It does appear to matter to Apple that Siri doesn't function that well in the U.K., because of a lack of good localisation.

Maybe it just so happens that I speak with just the right accent and have a decent wifi connection but I swear I've never had any problems making it understand me. Anyway right or wrong, isn't that sort of quote known as weasel words: "It does appear"?

Of course I can't speak on behalf of those broader accented inhabitants of these isles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGxKhUuZ0Rc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Re:Siri fine in uk

[Anonymous Coward]

Hoots mon a cribbens even if ya did haf prublems wud ya admit it or b a fanboi?

Re:Siri fine in uk

[Truedat]

Hoots mon a cribbens even if ya did haf prublems wud ya admit it or b a fanboi?

Och if ah had a wee problem I would nae longer be a fanboi. Now run along yer coward.

It's localisation...

[alex67500]

It's localisation, with an 's', you illiterate sod!

Re:It's localisation...

[Deorus]

Only in British English, which I despise.

There is a bit of a wall, though

[Anonymous Coward]

Google DOES have some "verbotens" in their provision.

1) Installable apps you cannot get rid of. Google Mail, Google Calendar, Google Synch, etc. Especially now that Google is owning what you post to their cloud services, the fact you're not allowed to remove their cloud service apps is a problem. Telling Google you're not using them allows them to see the effect of their policy decision.

2) DRM locking firmware. Mostly so they can "allow" you to "buy" hi-def video to view on "your" device or give HDMI output, but there's no way of (generally) telling the firmware and system that you don't give a flying fuck about DRMd video content or even buying it, so please remove it and don't let any DRM limited "content" be purchased (since it won't be able to be used).

These are two reasons why I'm seriously considering removing the Android firmware and installing Linux on my Archos G9.

Re:Apples idea of similar

[BasilBrush]

Apple probably thinks it's to similar if:

Or rather than, you know, talking out of your ass, you could take a look at the UIs of the two apps.

'apps too similar to Apple's existing software'

[G3ckoG33k]

'apps too similar to Apple's existing software'

So, no games, word editing, browsers?

Apple are the smallest dicks you've ever heard of.

Why not be grateful for a change?

[golodh]

Without Apple, who would be able to point out such clear-cut actual examples of less than desirable side-effects of a tightly controlled environment?

And mind you, without concrete examples you'd be painted as yet another Richard Stalman if you sketched any potential adverse effects.

The one thing people have less patience for listening to than actual problems is *potential* problems.

Apple is providing everyone a service by showing the what the consequences are of having a tightly controlled platform.

Re:Why not be grateful for a change?

[Deorus]

Apple is providing everyone a service by showing the what the consequences are of having a tightly controlled platform.

Great products that almost everyone wants to have? Half a trillion market cap constantly raising in a recessive economy? Considering the alternatives, I'm perfectly fine with their implementation of a tightly controlled platform, especially considering that for just $100 a year it stops being tightly controlled for me.

Re:Why not be grateful for a change?

[GameboyRMH]

The supposed positive effects you mention don't exist. If you point out how bad the walled garden is, you STILL get called a nutty RMS fanboy and people STILL don't see a problem with it. If anything they have created fanboys of curated computing that didn't exist before.

Re:Why not be grateful for a change?

[jo_ham]

That might have something to do with the *way* you point out your opinion on the walled garden model, and the subsequent characterisation of those who choose to use it.

It's rarely an actual debate on /. and more like a vehement stream of abuse directed at Apple, Apple users or anyone who dares to offer constructive criticism of Android.

Hell, you can't even post a positive comment about Apple on here any more without being accused of being a sock puppet account for a PR agency.

Debating the actual point rather than going for a personal attack might be better if you don't want to be accused of being a "nutty RMS fanboy".

FTR, my opinion is that the iOS model should follow something much more like the system Apple are adopting for Mountain Lion (apps from the store signed and launched without user input, apps from elsewhere queried on first launch by admin password) which marries the benefits of both models. What do I know though? I don't make smartphones.

Re:Why not be grateful for a change?

[GameboyRMH]

FTR, my opinion is that the iOS model should follow something much more like the system Apple are adopting for Mountain Lion (apps from the store signed and launched without user input, apps from elsewhere queried on first launch by admin password) which marries the benefits of both models. What do I know though? I don't make smartphones.

That would be a massive improvement. I couldn't really complain about iOS if they allowed unsigned apps to be installed out-of-the-box.

Apple would still be the world's worst patent abuser though and #1 employer of ethically questionable labor.

Never

[Anonymous Coward]

buy Apple®, ever. Every time I see an post from an Apple device it makes me cringe -
know how I know? They don't use the same character set as the rest of mankind!

Some misreadings are right...

[ignavus]

Steve Jobs might not be around any more to enforce some of Apple's stricter policies

At first I misread that as "...Apple's sphincter policies" and then I decided I was right.

I would totally do this

[Anonymous Coward]

If I were Apple and I had the app store, I would totally do this. Why the fuck would you WANT competition?

Business plan

[rbowen]

I'll bet this threat sells a million copies of the app. I hadn't heard of it yesterday. Now I've bought it. It was only $0.99 How many more of you did that?

I see a business plan here. What other of the default apps can I copy ...

It is not a clone

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that it works better in the UK than Siri... partly because it can spot british accents and partly because it gives information on british companies and maps. This is just Apple saying we all have to be American!

It does appear to matter

[Threni]

> It does appear to matter to Apple that Siri doesn't function that well in the U.K., because
> of a lack of good localisation."

Or even
"does *not* appear to matter"
surely?

Copyright is a monopoly

[Anonymous Coward]

And it's the ABUSE of this MONOPOLY that anti-trust is about.

Unless you're saying that I can create a modified iOS operating system and sell it (which means there's no monopoly).

Re:Copyright is a monopoly

[phayes]

explicitly authorized by the law so the AC shows he doesn't understands the subject...

Re:Apple not pulling Evi app, working with develop

[0xdeadbeef]

Oh, thank the gods. Apple is only going to rape them into submission, but not murder them.

Re:Apple not pulling Evi app, working with develop

[Anonymous Coward]

They should just pull their app from Apple and deploy to Android. The App developers are just being greedy.

Re:Apple not pulling Evi app, working with develop

[SpinyNorman]

Anyway it seems that Apple may have reconsidered their position on this

Pure speculation, and most likely untrue.

Siri is a huge strategic asset to Apple. They paid $200M to buy the company, and have only just begun to deploy it (what you see today is massively de-featured from what they bought - most of the potential revenue generating interfaces have been removed from it, one can only assume temporarily until referrel fee agreements are in place).

If Apple thought Evi in any way threatened Siri they'd pull it in a heartbeat. The fact that it's still there, and they are obviously aware of it, should tell you that it's not perceived of as any kind of threat to Siri at all in terms of functionality. It's really rather damning fro Evi that they havn't been pulled from the iPhone, since it's a screaming indication that they are in no way a threat to Siri.

I'm really surprised that on a supposedly tech site like slashdot that people still don't understand what Siri is despite there being plently of write ups on it. It's all about the AI - it's nothing you can replace any time soon with a quick speech recognition tied to actions mashup.

But "We have licensed this exclusively" is.

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject.

Friends

[Anonymous Coward]

Friends don't let friends develop for iOS.

Disagree....

[King_TJ]

At least, I disagree based on this particular case.

Apple didn't pull the app immediately, without warning. They contacted the developer and offered to help work with them to make changes so they'd find it acceptable. That's not usually how antitrust situations pan out at all. (Do you remember Microsoft approaching Netscape and saying, "Hey... we're cool with your web browser alternative and we'd even offer it as a download from our own site if you'd work with us to make sure we're satisfied it's not just an Internet Explorer clone, borrowing too many of our ideas and UI design cues."?)

By "clone" they mean "competition"

[walterbyrd]

That is the way Apple defines things. Apple is allowed to steal all the ideas they want. They even gloat about it. But if anybody uses an idea that Apple stold, Apple will scream, and cry, and especially sue.

Re:By "clone" they mean "competition"

[WiiVault]

Never heard of Apple suing an appstore dev. Yes Apple steals ideas, but so does everybody else. That's either a good thing or a bad thing depending on who you ask.

Twelve months later

[tepples]

What do you do 12 months after you become a licensed iOS developer and all your self-signed apps stop working?

ChevronWP7 was a limited-time offer

[tepples]

Google (Android), Microsoft (MS Mobile), and RIM (Blackberry) all allow users to install any application they want.

Windows Phone 7 lets you install apps only from the Windows Store unless you pay $99 per year for App Hub. ChevronWP7 appears to have been a limited-time offer.

Re:Apple not pulling Evi app, working with develop

[Anonymous Coward]

Android already comes with a localized voice search (before Siri). We don't need another. Although I can't say if it works in the UK, which is the point in this story.

Gatekeepers

[Anonymous Coward]

Gate keepers have decided what we get to consume for a long time. Gatekeepers decided what is shown on TV, music played on the radio, and movies played in theaters. Throughout my life I have found that most tv, radio and movies suck. Thanks to the internet there are more paths around gatekeepers, and small artist with no influence have been able to get their work directly to consumers, thank god. What if the person who invented html decided to copy write it and control what was released? We most likely wouldn't have the world wide web we have today, we would have some sort of giant AOL. We know that Apple as removed and denied apps that shouldn't have been, there's a long list. There's been illustrator apps, political apps, science apps, and more, banned. I don't think it's wide spread, I feel that the majority of apps created get approved. However, I think this gatekeeping goes against what we have come to expect from computing devices. I'm positive that many here have a favorite band or movie that almost didn't make it due to gatekeepers. An app that Apple thinks is unworthy could end up being my favorite app, and perhaps another 200000 other iPhone users would love it too. Why can't Apple let any app that isn't harmful into its app store? Because users would get confused by apps that look a bit like an Apple app? I don't buy that, Apple has 80 billion dollars, no small app developer is going to hurt Apple, that's ridiculous. Apple could let apps into the market, and maybe remove apps that underperform, and remove apps that are harmful. I think Apple's app store policies go against what's best for the consumer and developer. Just because something is successful doesn't mean it's for the best. I will continue to praise and critique Apple.

Re:Gatekeepers

[Anonymous Coward]

argh, meant copyright it : ( me am dizzylexlick.

Re:Apple not pulling Evi app, working with develop

[AdrianKemp]

Wrong, wrong and more wrong.

Apple doesn't give two shits about Siri competition. They bought Siri so that they would have something no one else did. It worked, people were interested.

The only thing apple ever cares about is selling more hardware. If Evi sells more hardware Apple will embrace it without hesitation.

What Apple won't do, is allow a shitty, broken and useless clone of Siri that looks way too similar continue to be sold on the app store. Someone that doesn't own an iPhone could witness someone using that piece of shit and confuse it with Siri, thereby getting the impression that Siri is as hopelessly useless as Evi.

Fuck them!

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF?

How about an immediate lawsuit against Apple for criminal anti-competitive practices?

just buy the company

[terracomm]

sounds like they do a better job, so spend some of that mound of cash.

Re:Apple not pulling Evi app, working with develop

[SpinyNorman]

Competition and exclusivity (generating hardware sales) are two sides of the same thing. Apple bought Siri to make it an Apple exclusive. It should go without saying they don't want to help a competitor gain any traction by making it available on iPhone.

Siri is about more than just selling hardware though - it's also going to become a huge revenue generator in it's own right. "Siri, book me a hotel" = $$$ to Apple. The smartphone advertizing market is up for grabs, but Siri is even better - it generates actual sales (this is the stuff Apple has temporarily taken out of Siri).

Re:Apple not pulling Evi app, working with develop

[Max Rool]

Yes it is speculation, hence the use of the word "seems". However the article begins with a "... developers True Knowledge received a call last week from Apple representative Richard Chipman letting them know that Evi's days in the App Store were numbered because the company felt it violated rule 8.3 in its developer guidelines." This implies that the people at True Knowledge believed that their app was being pulled. And that the implication is clear that this was at the the request of Chipman from Apple. And later we discover that Apple are working with True Knowledge to remove similarities, I don't think it is unreasonable, assuming statements form True Knowledge are accurate and that "sources familar with the matter" are also accurate that to consider Apple may have changed their mind is a reasonable inference.

Why I want an Android. F&ck you, Apple!

[Tablizer]

This really ticks me off about Apple. I already have a 4g iPhone and want voice recognition because I can't finger while driving (excluding gestures to fellow drivers). But it appears Apple is squashing and/or crippling non-Apple voice apps to avoid harming hardware sales for their newer phone. This likely wouldn't happen with Android.

Me: "Siri, remind me to stop buying Apple."

Siri: "Sorry, I can't do that, Dave."

Me: "My name is not 'Dave'."

Siri: "It is now."

"Open the iPod doors, Hal..."

[Tablizer]

the reason Evi have been asked to change. Because the UI is too much of a Siri copy.

Another Kubrick-Goes-To-Court in the works?:

http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/08/stanley-kubricks-2001-a-space-odyssey-invalidates-apples-design-patent-on-the-ipad-says-samsung.php

Re:"Open the iPod doors, Hal..."

[BasilBrush]

What the fuck has that got to do with Siri? The idiots are coming thick and fast today.

Re:"Open the iPod doors, Hal..."

[Tablizer]

UI is Hal. Did they mean GUI?

Re:"Open the iPod doors, Hal..."

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

the reason Evi have been asked to change. Because the UI is too much of a Siri copy.

Another Kubrick-Goes-To-Court in the works?:

http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/08/stanley-kubricks-2001-a-space-odyssey-invalidates-apples-design-patent-on-the-ipad-says-samsung.php

That was stupid when Samsung claimed it, it hasn't become better since. http://obamapacman.com/2011/08/debunked-samsung-2001-space-odyssey-as-ipad-prior-art-analysis/

Your application isn't worth

[tepples]

Please tell me exactly what in the agreement prevents me from publishing the Xcode project with the sources

The fact that your application isn't worth $99 per year to other people. That's how much they would have to pay in order to join the iOS developer program just to run your application.

Re:Your application isn't worth

[Deorus]

That's their problem, not mine... I am still able to distribute the app...

Problem Solved!

[Anonymous Coward]

Evi just needs to remove its rounded corners and start being fucking assbackwards as fuck. Problem solved! :)

Distributing vs. usefully distributing

[tepples]

That's their problem, not mine

If you want your software to have zero users other than you and therefore be less useful to mention on your CV, go right ahead.

I am still able to distribute the app

At least from my point of view, inherent in the concept of usefully "distributing" a computer program is having it used by the people to whom it is distributed.

Cylon

[HTH NE1]

With Evi's single eye bouncing left and right while she processes the question, I asked, "Are you a Cylon?" Evi responded, "I don't know, I'm afraid." So apparently she's a sleeper agent like Boomer.