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Wikileaks and Anonymous Join Forces Against US Intelligence Community

pigrabbitbear writes "The most recent bombshell of confidential documents dropped by infamous watchdog organization Wikileaks is already looking to have an enormous impact on our understanding of government security practices. Specifically, intimate details on the long-suspected fact that the U.S. has been paying a whole lot of money to have private corporations spy on citizens, activists and other groups and individuals on their ever-expanding, McCarthy-style naughty list. But perhaps more importantly, the docs demonstrate something very interesting about the nature of U.S. government intelligence: They haven't really got much of it."

268 comments

  1. Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Stratfor is a PRIVATE company. The fact that they "spy" on activists or whatever their corporate clients pay them to do has ZERO to do with US intelligence agencies. To be explicit: the "US" is NOT paying private companies to "spy" on activists. That information does not cross over, and the Intelligence Community is not authorized to collect on US Persons, except where allowed by law or authorized by a properly adjudicated warrant from a court of law. I know people on Slashdot don't like to believe this, and prefer to imagine that the sole purpose of the Intelligence Community is spying on our own citizens instead of, you know, doing the jobs they've been charged to do.

    Terrible article and summary. F.

    1. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by icebike · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It would appear that Wikileaks doesn't have much intelligence either. I mean I haven't seen anything really secret or seriously sensitive in any of their releases, mostly stuff equating to gossip or which was already known. I've read all the Gee Wow articles about all the secret cables, and other documents, but found them much to do about nothing, and the expected fallout from their release amounted to nothing.

      It would appear they have no access to the truely secret stuff. Which is not the same thing as the Government not having any secret stuff. It just means anonymous and wikileaks go after soft targets.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 4, Informative

      Apparently you didn't read the article, so you may want to reduce that last sentence to "terrible summary." TFA is about how some of the work Stratfor has done is total crap, and how the intelligence budget is nothing but cronyism hidden behind classification. Their surveillance on the Yes Men, for example, goes no further than publicly-available information provided by the Yes Men, and a substantial chunk of other work is just Google Translate output on news articles.

      Reminder: any time you see a budget increase for defence purposes, there's some kind of pork or corruption behind it.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    3. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by The_Wilschon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, the article appears to be stating the exact opposite of what you have just asserted, to wit, that the US government IS paying private companies to "spy" on activists. Either you or the article must be wrong, since you are making incompatible assertions. Unfortunately, I have neither the time nor the patience to go through the documents in question on wikileaks in order to determine whether the article's depiction of affairs is accurate, based on those documents (and the presumption that they are themselves reliable).

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    4. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Hentes · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Gossip and proven fact are very far from each other. Now that there is proof of the wrongdoings it's much harder to label them conspiracy theories.

    5. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by martin-boundary · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Mundane stuff is how you catch the existence of secret stuff. By sifting through a lot of boring sounding data and making connections, things that don't add up are seen, and the right questions to ask are found. That's data mining, and it's not about submarine cars and bullets shooting out of a cigar.

      The reason governments go after Wikileaks is that they know this, and by the time Wikileaks or someone else finds a juicy secret, it's much too late to cover up.

    6. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Ziekheid · · Score: 0

      2 words: Patriot Act.

    7. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Rimbo · · Score: 5, Informative

      Uhm... maybe that's because Stratfor is not an "intelligence" agency in the same way that the FBI or CIA are. They're just a private company trying to make a buck by selling their opinions.

      They're basically Rivals.com, but focused on politics rather than sports. And about as much a part of the US intelligence structure as Rivals.com is.

      That's why folks like AC above and myself are shaking our collective heads, wondering when Allen Funt is going to jump out from behind Julian Assange and shout, "Surprise!"

    8. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Wikileaks doesn't go after any targets. People leak stuff which wikileaks then publishes. If they haven't published anything sensitive enough for you, then that means that people haven't leaked that information to them, not that they "go after soft targets".

    9. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/08/wikileaks-reveals-that-mi_n_793816.html

      Yep, big yawn-o-rama.

    10. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by stms · · Score: 1

      I don't think thats because wikileaks lacks intelligence. Its more likely because the really secret stuff won't have *any* paper trail whatsoever.

    11. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Catbeller · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What utter nonsense. The US government has been hiring "private" companies to do what they themselves are forbidden to do. Among other things, especially for spying on Americans.

    12. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by crow_t_robot · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You, sir, are correct. That is why the US has "classified by aggregation" status for documents. The individual documents would not be classified individually, but when you combine them with others they end up becoming classified.

    13. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by bug1 · · Score: 2

      "I mean I haven't seen anything really secret or seriously sensitive in any of their releases .. and the expected fallout from their release amounted to nothing."

      Please tell that to that to the US Government.

    14. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by _xeno_ · · Score: 4, Informative

      Mundane stuff is how you catch the existence of secret stuff. By sifting through a lot of boring sounding data and making connections, things that don't add up are seen, and the right questions to ask are found.

      Not too surprisingly, government security people know this, which is why so much mundane shit is classified: to cover up the stuff that really should be secret.

      The fact that it also covers up government wrong-doing, like spying on American citizens or massive government waste, is just a nice happy fringe benefit.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
    15. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reminder: any time you see a GOVERNMENT budget increase for ANY purpose, there's some kind of pork or corruption behind it.

      FTFY.

      Why in the entire damned universe do you think non-defence portions of governments are immune to port or corruption?

    16. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would appear that Wikileaks doesn't have much intelligence either. I mean I haven't seen anything really secret or seriously sensitive in any of their releases, mostly stuff equating to gossip or which was already known.

      How about Russia gaving Israel the codes to Iranian missiles in exchange for Israel giving them codes for Georgian missiles?

      http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/153273

    17. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by NicBenjamin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's amazing how little people know about intelligence gathering. The Government is not magic. It is an organization. A big and powerful organization, but an organization nonetheless.

      They have a bunch of databases of information they can use. Shockingly, few people are willing to put their press releases in a format that this database automatically understands. This means that if the government wants to know what an organization posts on it's public website some poor schmuck has to go to the website, read the information, and copy/paste into the official database.

      It shouldn't be surprising that a group like the Yes Men, whose information is in English and written in way that's supposed to be accesible to ordinary Americans, gets looked at by the losers of the intelligence community, Stratfor, and not official agents.

      Without seeing the contract I can't say whether this is losing the government money. This is low-level work, which means people in their first jobs, and the Federal pay structure is such that you make a little more then you're worth in the low pay-grades ($30-$35k out of college, even if you're a Liberal Arts Major), and get full benefits, but then get screwed when you get promoted (Obama only makes $400k, CEOs making that typically oversee less then 1% of the Fed $Trillion budget). Depending on Stratfor's negotiating prowess we could be saving thousands, or being screwed.

    18. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by icebike · · Score: 1

      Big deal. Probably common knowledge since there were so many people involved.

      Who would this be secret from? The Russians? The Israelis? Its mere speculation any way from
      a FOR PROFIT public sector source.

      Nothing to see here, move along please.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    19. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      BBC Monitoring employs humans to translate foreign news articles. Knowing what newspapers around the world are saying about political stuff can be useful.

    20. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 3, Informative

      Agreed, Stratfor is hardly the biggest offence in terms of budget misappropriation, although the evidence is highly in favour of the 'no money should be spent on this at all' label, and suggests that the intelligence community is gathering huge amounts of unnecessary data because they have no idea what they need. (We have a similar problem in bioinformatics, but ours isn't caused by baseless paranoia.) Budget-wise, the really scary disasters are things like TRAILBLAZER (also mentioned in the article) which are heavily protected from scrutiny through their deep classification. You might further find the connected story of Thomas Drake interesting.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    21. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      I've just realized this whole conversation is based on a total BS assumption.

      The Yes Men were not being monitored by the government. They were being monitored by Dow and Union Carbide, aka: the people on the legal hook for killing thousands at Bhopal. This is proving by clicking on the link in the article, and noticing none of the Bhopal mails were sent to a .gov address. They all went to those folks from Dow or Union Carbide, or private email addresses.

      So people, especially me, have been talking out their asses. As was the original article.

      Thank you Chuck Chunder, for pointing this out.

    22. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by gmack · · Score: 1

      Didn't need Wikileaks for that.. this has been a known and very common problem with not just contractors but also US military and UN officials/peacekeepers and from the stories I'm hearing from my military friends (Canadian Peackeepers and US military) that it happens in a lot of different countries. I've heard more than one of my friends tell me that complaints go nowhere even though there were reports of UN official vehicles parked in front of known brothels.

      From a run in I had with two wannabe "private security" guys looking to apply for work in Iraq last year I get the feeling that there are people looking for work in places with little law enforcement for exactly these reasons. Their only question after an hour of being lectured 45 minutes on the ins and outs of Iraq? "How are the women there"

    23. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      I didn't say that they were immune. I didn't even mention them. However, unlike over-bloated defence budgets (and let's be honest now, they're offence budgets), there is a small chance that some budget increases may have legitimate substance to them. As someone making a staunchly nihilist claim I realise you're probably opposed to dealing with the concept of any government other than pure anarchism or anarcho-capitalism, but please try to understand that grown-ups sometimes express cynicism too, and that when they do so it is not an invitation to leap into the middle of everything for a few yuk-yuks.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    24. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please show me the leaked document that shows the US Intelligence Community or any Federal US Government entity paying Stratfor anything.

      What's that? You can't find any?

      Because Stratfor is a private company that shills cheesy Intel reports to other companies, and is not employed by the US Government in any way.

    25. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Brannoncyll · · Score: 1

      the Intelligence Community is not authorized to collect on US Persons, except where allowed by law or authorized by a properly adjudicated warrant from a court of law. I know people on Slashdot don't like to believe this, and prefer to imagine that the sole purpose of the Intelligence Community is spying on our own citizens instead of, you know, doing the jobs they've been charged to do.

      If that is the case, then how do you explain this or this or this. Sorry buddy, but you have to get your head out of the sand.

    26. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Brannoncyll · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Please tell that to that to the US Government

      No need. They long since have clinked all the wine glasses and slapped all the back, and chuckled at all the jokes. They know exactly what wikileaks has and aren't worried a bit, in spite of the grave face they put on to entertain the naive.

      For people who aren't worried, they do seem to have put in an unusually large amount of effort in trying to shut Wikileaks down and making Bradley Manning out as some kind of arch-villain.

    27. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by deaddeng · · Score: 1

      This story cracks me up. STRATFOR is a joke (example-- 10 years ago the founder predicted the US would fight its next war against JAPAN). The fact that Wikileaks thinks that publishing emails stolen by Anon. is a blow for freedom confirms that Wikileaks is a bigger joke than Stratfor, striving to seem relevant while Julian A. awaits trial for rape. This story is like the Weekly World News unmasking the dark plots of Amway, and the fact that /. published a complete garble of Stratfor as a US government intelligence agency just makes /. look equally stupid.

      For a great article on this mess:

      http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/02/stratfor-is-a-joke-and-so-is-wikileaks-for-taking-it-seriously/253681/

      --
      --- .085 as cool; proving that a little knowledge is dangerous
    28. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by gandhi_2 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well, to be fair, there ARE some hot KBR girls out there.

      In sundresses with combat boots....

      And that hot blonde tall girl at the Camp Victory post office....

    29. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      corporate clients may include cia shell companies?

    30. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that they "spy" on activists or whatever their corporate clients pay them to do has ZERO to do with US intelligence agencies.

      Seen what the FBI and other US "intelligence" services are wasting their time on, going after whoever the RIAA/MPAA/MAFIAA sic them on?

      Seems like US government "intelligence" turned into thugs-for-hire long ago.

    31. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by objectdisoriented · · Score: 1

      Way to go Coward. Nice post. Intelligence agencies paying this non-government agency to do their dirty work has "ZERO" to do with US intelligence agencies.

      --
      Performance must be inherent in every aspect of the system. It is not an afterthought, but always thought. - me
    32. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For people who aren't worried, they do seem to have put in an unusually large amount of effort in trying to shut Wikileaks down and making Bradley Manning out as some kind of arch-villain.

      Smoke and mirrors. If they *LOOK* worried, then people will think that "Wow they are all worked up, this stuff must be true. It isn't even really all that bad, our government must be only a little corrupt" instead of the awful truth. Since Assange is still alive this tells me that; the US government is not concerned, the Israeli government is not concerned, the Soviet government in not concerned, the Chinese government is not concerned, Iran, N Korea, etc. I think that just like Facebook the US government has turned Wikileaks into a tool. One of misinformation rather than intelligence gathering.

    33. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      That's news to me. Although this says "it comes as no surprise that a leaked Stratfor client list included a large number of subscribers from the US foreign policy and military bureaucracies." (True, it's not a big contract.)

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    34. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      The fact that it also covers up government wrong-doing, like spying on American citizens

      It is hard to understand why the government would ever engage in surveillance of American citizens, isn't it? You've got to wonder, what are they thinking? Are they stepping over the line?

      And that's not all - at times it's almost like they are guided and operating according to something other than criminal law, almost as if they had a body of law that nobody else knows about that lets them do things like shoot dead large numbers of people, en masse, legally, with neither trial nor warrant. How could that be? Does Congress know about this? Does Congress approve?

      The recruiter: Anwar al-Awlaki, portrait of an American jihadist CNN: Al-Awlaki threatens Americans
      40 Americans Have Joined Al Qaeda Group
      U.S.-educated Misunderstander of Islam pleads guilty to jihad war crimes, turns government witness

      FBI’s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Ending January 27, 2012

      Denver: Man Arrested for Providing Material Support to a Designated Foreign Terrorist Organization

      Jamshid Muhtorov was arrested by members of the FBI’s Denver and Chicago Joint Terrorism Task Forces on a charge of providing and attempting to provide material support to the Islamic Jihad Union, a Pakistan-based designated foreign terrorist organization. Full Story

      Baltimore: Man Pleads Guilty to Attempted Use of a Weapon of Mass Destruction in Plot to Attack Armed Forces Recruiting Center

      U.S. citizen Antonio Martinez, aka Muhammad Hussain, pled guilty to attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction against federal property in connection with a scheme to attack an armed forces recruiting station in Catonsville, Maryland. Full Story

      Washington Field: Man Pleads Guilty to Shootings at Pentagon, Other Military Buildings

      Yonathan Melaku, of Alexandria, Virginia, pled guilty to damaging property and to firearms violations involving five separate shootings at military installations in northern Virginia between October and November 2010, and to attempting to damage veterans’ memorials at Arlington National Cemetery. Full Story

      FBI’s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Ending January 13, 2012

      1.Tampa: Florida Resident Charged with Plotting to Bomb Locations in Tampa

      A 25-year-old resident of Pinellas Park, Florida was charged in connection with an alleged plot to attack locations in Tampa with a vehicle bomb, assault rifle, and other explosives. Full Story

      2.Baltimore: Former Army Solider Charged with Attempting to Provide Material Support to al Shabaab

      A man who secretly converted to Islam days before he separated from the Army was charged with attempting to provide material support to al Shabaab, a foreign terrorist organization, and was arrested upon his return to Maryland after traveling to Africa. Full Story

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    35. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by cavreader · · Score: 2

      What efforts has the government did to take down Wiki-leaks? It was the private companies who denied financial transactions. Bradley Manning at the very least broke military laws regarding the distribution of classified documents. Just because you have a hard on against the government doesn't mean you can dismiss certain violations of the law to support your opinion. If the government wanted Wikileaks taken down it would already be done. It is also the governments responsibility to investigate how this incident occurred so they can change their processes in the future. They have not charged anyone with a crime besides Manning. The plain fact is that Wikileaks is supposed to provide a way for information to be freely disseminated without identifying the source of the data. Instead they have politicized the information, demanded money from news organizations, and placed restrictions on the release of the data. They selectively release data to bolster their owners political viewpoints and have no way to ensure the data they do release has not been modified prior to release.

    36. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok here it is. conus.army.mil address requesting tech support to get around their own filters, kinda sad actually. http://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/1956493_re-ct-fwd-fw-customer-service-technical-issues-atricles-on.html

    37. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by feynmanfan1 · · Score: 0

      the Intelligence Community is not authorized to collect on US Persons, except where allowed by law or authorized by a properly adjudicated warrant from a court of law. I know people on Slashdot don't like to believe this, and prefer to imagine that the sole purpose of the Intelligence Community is spying on our own citizens instead of, you know, doing the jobs they've been charged to do.

      I spent two years working at the NSA and while there a coworker (from GCHQ) noted that U.K.'s GCHQ can, by U.K. law, perform surveillance on U.S. citizens without a warrant and the U.K. shares that intelligence with the U.S., the English speaking countries have a cozy intelligence sharing agreement, sometimes called "five eyes." Pretty big loophole in the privacy laws. Realistically, even if a warrant is required the NSA has plenty of friendly judges willing to sign warrants when asked, it is not that strong an oversight. Also, large multinational corporations (DOW, coca-cola) have substantial influence over the U.S. government so when multinationals fund surveillance of U.S. citizens it is as if the federal gov is doing the surveillance.

    38. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about a sealed secret indictment to get Assange?

    39. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet we have users asking what's wrong with public surveilance.

    40. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by cold+fjord · · Score: 2

      Wikileaks doesn't go after any targets. People leak stuff which wikileaks then publishes. If they haven't published anything sensitive enough for you, then that means that people haven't leaked that information to them, not that they "go after soft targets".

      They don't go after soft target, eh?

      . . . . In fact, WikiLeaks must be counted among the enemies of open society because it does not respect the rule of law nor does it honor the rights of individuals.

      Last year, for example, WikiLeaks published the “secret ritual” of a college women’s sorority called Alpha Sigma Tau. Now Alpha Sigma Tau (like several other sororities “exposed” by WikiLeaks) is not known to have engaged in any form of misconduct, and WikiLeaks does not allege that it has. Rather, WikiLeaks chose to publish the group’s confidential ritual just because it could. This is not whistleblowing and it is not journalism. It is a kind of information vandalism.

      In fact, WikiLeaks routinely tramples on the privacy of non-governmental, non-corporate groups for no valid public policy reason. It has published private rites of Masons, Mormons and other groups that cultivate confidential relations among their members. Most or all of these groups are defenseless against WikiLeaks’ intrusions. The only weapon they have is public contempt for WikiLeaks’ ruthless violation of their freedom of association, and even that has mostly been swept away in a wave of uncritical and even adulatory reporting about the brave “open government,” “whistleblower” site.

      On occasion, WikiLeaks has engaged in overtly unethical behavior. Last year, without permission, it published the full text of the highly regarded 2009 book about corruption in Kenya called “It’s Our Turn to Eat” by investigative reporter Michela Wrong (as first reported by Chris McGreal in The Guardian on April 9). By posting a pirated version of the book and making it freely available, WikiLeaks almost certainly disrupted sales of the book and made it harder for Ms. Wrong and other anti-corruption reporters to perform their important work and to get it published. Repeated protests and pleas from the author were required before WikiLeaks (to its credit) finally took the book offline.

      “Soon enough,” observed Raffi Khatchadourian in a long profile of WikiLeaks’ Julian Assange in The New Yorker (June 7), “Assange must confront the paradox of his creation: the thing that he seems to detest most–power without accountability–is encoded in the site’s DNA, and will only become more pronounced as WikiLeaks evolves into a real institution.” . . . --- Wikileaks Fails “Due Diligence” Review

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    41. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by rs79 · · Score: 2

      Top 5 revelations so far (h/t Juan Cole) of the first few emails out of five million to be released:

      1. Up to 12 Pakistani active-duty and retired officers from the Inter-Services Intelligence agency knew that Usama Bin Laden was in Abbottabad and were in regular contact with him. The Pakistani chief of staff is denying the report.
      2. Dow Chemicals hired Stratfor to spy on activists in Agra who continue to protest over the Bhopal environmental disaster that blinded many workers and destroyed their health. I.e., Stratfor was not just doing analysis but was involved in private intelligence operations against civil society groups that had a right to protest.
      3. Stratfor Vice President Fred Burton, a former State Department official involved in counter-terrorism, lamented that in the old days the US would simply have assassinated Venezuelan leftist leader Hugo Chavez and Bolivian leftist leader Evo Morales.
      4. Russia sold weapons to Iran but turned around and gave their security codes to Israel.
      5. The fifth revelation is that often Stratfor analysts did not know what they were talking about and had an extreme rightwing bias.

      Juan Cole has more about these on his site.

      --
      Need Mercedes parts ?
    42. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/08/wikileaks-reveals-that-mi_n_793816.html

      Yep, big yawn-o-rama.

      Yes, it pretty much is.

      State Department Denies Sexual Abuse of ‘Dancing Boy’

      "Of the Wikileaks cache of diplomatic cables, one of the most potentially salacious is about the entertainment at a party thrown by DynCorp, a U.S. contractor training Afghan police, in April 2009. A 17-year-old boy was hired to dance.

      In Afghanistan, hiring "dancing boys" is a long-held practice in which Afghan men hire young men and boys to dress like girls and dance at weddings and other parties. They don't hire girls, because in Afghan society men and women don't mix socially. . . .

      . . . according to both the State Department, which investigated the incident, and DynCorp, no such sexual abuse occurred.

      We did not find anything that there was any kind of misconduct of that kind at all," Susan Pittman, a spokeswoman for the State Department's Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs, told TPM. "It was just inappropriate."

      DynCorp says one manager present stopped the dancing halfway through after "recognizing that the situation was culturally insensitive." At the State Department's request, DynCorp fired several managers involved and flew "senior leadership" to Afghanistan to do face-to-face ethics training.

      "They responded responsibly," the State spokeswoman said.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    43. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Omestes · · Score: 1

      This is actually pretty heartening... It means the Government is far more competent than it looks.

      Sadly I doubt this very much, though.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    44. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Rimbo · · Score: 1

      Pretty much goes with what I said above, as in: I'm not sure which of those is really a revelation. #1 and #4 are just Stratfor's best guesses, like reading an "insider" report on a closed basketball practice on the 'net. #2 is just like hiring a PI to snoop on your wife. #3 and #5 are pretty much common knowledge. (Also: I think Burton's kinda nutty -- also easily-attainable knowledge for anyone who read his autobiography.)

      Wikileaks and Anonymous keep bragging about this as if they'd exposed some private arm of government spying, when really, the government paying Stratfor is like a software development company paying for a Dr. Dobbs' journal subscription; when it's your profession, it's good to have external perspectives, even if they don't necessarily align with your mission and aren't informed on your specific details.

      And on that note, Friedman's free weekly write-ups are some good bull; he'll usually spend the bulk of any given article providing facts for context before he delves into the op-ed parts, and so you end up learning a few things even if the rest of what he has to say is bunk. He's kind of the Chip Brown of Stratfor (re: the above comparison of Stratfor to Rivals.com).

    45. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not too surprisingly, government security people know this, which is why so much mundane shit is classified: to cover up the stuff that really should be secret.

      The fact that it also covers up government wrong-doing, like spying on American citizens or massive government waste, is just a nice happy fringe benefit.

      I'm sorry but it's pretty evident you have no idea what you're talking about. It always amazes me how people think they know so much about how inner workings of the intelligence community when the entire point of the IC is that you don't. The real reason why mundane shit is classified is pretty simple:

      A lot of people in the IC just really don't know how to classify shit correctly. Marking something at the maximum clearance you operate at is much easier especially when the turn over rate is as high as it is, you have new people coming in all the time and it takes months to fully understand classifications (over classifying is much better than under classifying).

      I don't know what people think the IC do all day but it certainly isn't looking at private citizens and figuring out how to best screw them. In fact if any of that behaviour actually does exist in the IC, it must be in the top 0.1% of officials and never cross in to regular operation because it's certainly not some kind of assumed behaviour internally.

      I find it amazing that you assume people sit around all day spying on their citizens. IC agencies are bound by laws written specifically for them and if you even think about targeting a citizen you're dragged over the coals. People that work in the community are just like you (perhaps a little less paranoid but it's obviously easier to believe an accusation that you know the IC can't and won't prove because it would involve breaching classified material) and I and you have probably worked with a bunch of former/current ones without knowing it.

      The only thing I can assume is that you are confusing elements of the intelligence community. It is worth clarifying if you are referring to NSA/CIA/NRO/DIA or FBI/DHS/et al. Entirely different laws apply for domestic and international agencies and the NSA can not easily target a US national without a federal judge seeing solid information about what the individual is doing, and it has to be related to terrorism essentially (and not this pop-culture terrorism bullshit everyone here believes is used as a justification, actual links to known international terrorists need to be established).

    46. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you know about this sealed secret idictment... how?

    47. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You also have to remember this is all mind games, they want the everyday Jane and Joe to think they are being watched or even better to make activist groups, and other groups paranoid that they are being closely monitored the same for outside country groups. This is not surprising they did this to some of the most out spoken people in US history, MLK, JFK, John Lennon, ect, bla bla.... They had a "special" list for these people, and it was believed they would bring the "system" to its knees. Crippling the governments straggle hold..

      Area 51 is the best example of bullshit, there is nothing really going on there it is more or less a military plane museum, planes from russia and old Nazi Germany, ect, ect, that the public is not aware of. They is no doubt they test new military aircraft from that hanger, and probably have a list of private companies with military engineers working or developing new technologies. But that is all it is.... I would explain a little further but doing so may get me and Slashdot in hot water.
      It is a distraction a decoy to keep the wanna-b's guessing, and others wondering..

      They go after these Wikileaks for two reasons (one could argue these or disagree) 1, Wikileaks went after classified documents and illegally obtained them, they also do not want the public to know what is exactly going on.
      2, Because they do not want the public to know, it keeps them guessing as to if the government or there hand puppet private companies are in fact invading on your every move. This exposes them and shows they are not as established in spying on you as was lead to believe.

      The documents probably have things in them that if you were looking closely for, they would make you worry as to how far they are willing to go to invade upon your every move. The recent GPS tracking that the FBI illegally did, makes these documents even more interesting, for what kind of content they may have.. If the FBI did this, what other government agencies and private companies are willing to go even further and claim the Patriot Act or some other BS law that should not have been passed as cover for there actions.
      I am surprised the FBI did not try to claim those acts or laws, maybe they did but the judges did not buy into there BS..

    48. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Now that there is proof of the wrongdoings

      Really? What proof of which wrongdoings are you talking about, Mr. + 5 Interesting with no citation who obviously did not read or understand the story? Citation maybe? Because this article sure as fuck doesn't have any such information, and the summary is even worse.

      Since you are having trouble understanding this I'll explain it without the anti-US pro-Wiki/Anon sensationalism.

      The reason why the "Intelligence isn't any good" is because it's all public knowledge already. (from the article)
      That's because the government is paying them to aggregate already publicly available information for them. They are not getting paid to do surveillance or gather information which isn't already publicly known. There's nothing illegal going on, and in fact nothing unusual going on. It's not different than hiring a contractor to repair their fleet vehicles instead of having their own in-house mechanics do it.

      But true to form, you tinfoil hat types have taken "a contractor paid to gather public information" and twisted it into "Secret Conspiracy to do illegal things and are getting ripped off!" Just STFU until you clowns actually get some real info. The government has plenty of real intel, these morons haven't got to it, that's not the same as them not having any.

    49. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by sirambrose · · Score: 1

      The Mormons' rituals were already published at several other sites. The publication of the rituals has not had any impact on the Mormons' freedom of association. They don't like people publishing their rituals, but they still use them. They changed a few aspects of the rituals years ago when they were first published to get rid of elements that suggested Masonic influences, but this kind of revision has been done several times before.

      I believe that people considering joining these kinds of organizations should have the ability to find out about the rituals and teachings of the organization before joining. The Mormon church delays participation in the temple rituals until after new members have formed strong social connections to the church. The availability of the Mormon rituals on the Internet allows prospective Mormons to make a more informed choice about joining the church. In contrast, I don't see any public benefit from the cultivation of confidential relations by organizations that aggressively recruit new members.

    50. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by hjrnunes · · Score: 1

      Out of those 13 headlines in your post, 7 are about people that pleaded guilty. Somehow, I find that odd. 5 of them are about providing or attempting to provide, or conspiring to provide,material support to "terrorists" or terrorist orgs like al Shabaab (interestingly, Al Qaeda seems to be démodé these days, Al Shabaab is the new rage). Now my question is, the FBI seems quite successful in arresting people providing material support to terrorists but, where are the terrorists themselves?

      Furthermore, Gitmo is a concentration camp. So your comparison actually makes sense. In fact, not only it is a concentration camp, it's one on foreign ground too, a fact which allows evading US laws. Is it one of the worst things ever? People are detained there without accusation or trial for years on end, so, yes.

    51. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by hjrnunes · · Score: 1

      and the NSA can not easily target a US national without a federal judge seeing solid information about what the individual is doing, and it has to be related to terrorism essentially

      I guess what people are trying to say is that, although what you say probably applies in theory and even most times, these agencies have no problems in skipping that particular step involving the judge if they (or a particular someone in there with enough power) really, really want to know something about a US citizen. Cops do it frequently with wiretaps, so I'd assume big bureaucratic agencies that operate in secrecy have little difficulty in pulling that out. The lack of public interest and things like the PATRIOT act only help to that surely. I think most of times they don't really expect anyone to come looking anyway.

    52. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by xenobyte · · Score: 1

      Stratfor is a PRIVATE company

      That's even worse! It is completely UNACCEPTABLE that a private company spies on the common public!

      If anyone should spy on regular people it must be someone who can be held publicly accountable for any abuse of the information collected, and good luck doing that with a private company.

      In the ideal world it should be completely illegal to spy on anyone without a warrant. Basically I cannot see any reason why it isn't like that in civilized countries already. I mean if you for instance want to secretly investigate someone for terrorism ties, what's wrong with getting a warrant? - You could be using special judges working for the intelligence community to secrecy can be preserved, and later you'd have a audit log of who, why and where. This way you wouldn't have run-away spying and everybody suspected for something, the traditional trademark of fascism.

      Oh, and if you try to keep track of too many things at the same time, you'll severely degrade the usability of the efforts. It's basic cognition science and the effect is commonly known as "information overload". Automated systems can to some extent correlate and reduce the pile of information, but you always run the risk of important stuff getting disregarded/overlooked, so you need to check and double check... and before you know it you have quadrupled the work and is still not sure...

      Just stick to the relevant suspects and do a proper job with them. That'll get you much father.

      --
      "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
    53. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      Plus you can't ignore the likely tens of thousands of people globally that have been saved from being completely ripped off by the Church of Scientology due to their bullshit getting leaked.

      Organized religion's needed to have it's dox leaked for centuries. The Vatican has 2,000 years worth of juicy information sitting in their vaults alone...

    54. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      > an hour of being lectured 45 minutes

      Wait... what ?

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    55. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I guess what people are trying to say is that, although what you say probably applies in theory and even most times, these agencies have no problems in skipping that particular step involving the judge if they (or a particular someone in there with enough power) really, really want to know something about a US citizen. Cops do it frequently with wiretaps, so I'd assume big bureaucratic agencies that operate in secrecy have little difficulty in pulling that out. The lack of public interest and things like the PATRIOT act only help to that surely. I think most of times they don't really expect anyone to come looking anyway.

      That's not the case, you can't just skip at a step. There are too many checks and balances. In fact there is an entire regulated, not politically appointment, government body that can walk in at any moment and request to see documentation relating to anything they wish and 'that's classified' is not a valid response, regardless of how sensitive it is. This is where cops and intelligence agencies (at least signals, perhaps not humint) differ as law enforcement is not anywhere near as highly regulated. The bottom line is that when there are so many legitimate threats to human life in the world, and so many domestic agencies looking inward, what makes you think an international agency is so interested in what you had for breakfast?

      2) You work in a security agency of some sort

      I believe 2 is very unlikely because if you did you would know that you are treading a very fine line with that post and revealing yourself would surely not be part of your plan.

      That simply proves my point that you have very little idea about the agencies you are talking about; no NSA employee is bound to secrecy of their employment. It is obvious that you aren't able to talk about your work, but your actual employment is inherently unclassified (and appears on your fortnightly salary).

      The NSA is not the CIA; the rest of your post is basically irrelevant as a result.

    56. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, basically, if the US government outsources intelligence activities within the USA to a private contractor, said private contractor can do whatever the @#%$@%# they want (including things which would otherwise be illegal for the government to do themselves), and then theoretically could pass whatever information is deemed important to the government?

      It would be a nice loophole around constitutional and legal protections. Thankfully, the government isn't actually paying for such services, so there's no reason to worry that it could ever, ever happen. [Ha!]

      It's also interesting to think about how the government manages in a technical sense to monitor electronic communications of non-US citizens within the USA (which is legal), but not ensnare US citizens in the same net.

    57. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      except where allowed by law

      You missed the part where after 9/11, those powers were specifically granted. That's the entire purpose of homeland security. The creation of DHS violates the charter of most three letter agencies in the US. Right now, most agencies are in violation of their charter and US Constitution. Don't allow your theoretical understanding of the world interfere with your comprehension of what is actually taking place.

    58. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by gtall · · Score: 1

      Gitmo is a concentration camp? Really? They get 3 meals a day, shower facilities, etc. Sounds like a high security prison to me. A concentration camp generally has harsh living conditions.

      That's separate from the question of why it is there. Are they prisoners of war? Al Qaeda and its affiliates have declared war on the U.S. The U.S. should respond in kind, then they'd have justification for keeping the prisoners. Until then, they should let them go so the U.S. can have another go at killing them on the battlefield. This time, the U.S. should promise never to take them prisoners again unless there is a declaration of war.

    59. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by dkf · · Score: 1

      (Obama only makes $400k, CEOs making that typically oversee less then 1% of the Fed $Trillion budget)

      There's a lot of incidental benefits to that job though. For example, while he's in office he never has to pay for a hotel room in DC for himself or his family, and the furnishing of those rooms will be done at the public expense with a substantial budget available to do it. Yes, it sounds silly but that sort of thing adds up.

      In general though, the big difference between the public and private sectors is a different balance between pay and benefits. The private sector tends to be more focussed on pay, the public more on non-pay benefits. This is true in many countries.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    60. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by hjrnunes · · Score: 2

      Yeah really. Nazi camps had all that too. Even swimming pools. They were also "high security prisons". It's not the prison that matters, is your policy for putting people there.

    61. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Tsingi · · Score: 1

      ... the Intelligence Community is not authorized to collect on US Persons, except where allowed by law or authorized by a properly adjudicated warrant from a court of law. I know people on Slashdot don't like to believe this, and prefer to imagine that the sole purpose of the Intelligence Community is spying on our own citizens instead of, you know, doing the jobs they've been charged to do.

      You mean, like the NYPD?

    62. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We can still ddos their website though, right?

    63. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Jawnn · · Score: 1

      ...To be explicit: the "US" is NOT paying private companies to "spy" on activists. That information does not cross over, and the Intelligence Community is not authorized to collect on US Persons, except where allowed by law or authorized by a properly adjudicated warrant from a court of law

      Ya know..., sometimes subtle sarcasm escapes many /. readers. Oh, wait... You weren't actually being sarcastic and you actually believe that our government has not been skirting the law and spying on it's own citizens? You, sir, have not been paying attention, or you are simply an idiot. Hard to tell with AC's, ya know.

    64. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by SomePoorSchmuck · · Score: 1

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/08/wikileaks-reveals-that-mi_n_793816.html

      Yep, big yawn-o-rama.

      Yes, it pretty much is.

      State Department Denies Sexual Abuse of ‘Dancing Boy’

      "Of the Wikileaks cache of diplomatic cables, one of the most potentially salacious is about the entertainment at a party thrown by DynCorp, a U.S. contractor training Afghan police, in April 2009. A 17-year-old boy was hired to dance.

      In Afghanistan, hiring "dancing boys" is a long-held practice in which Afghan men hire young men and boys to dress like girls and dance at weddings and other parties. They don't hire girls, because in Afghan society men and women don't mix socially. . . .

      . . . according to both the State Department, which investigated the incident, and DynCorp, no such sexual abuse occurred.

      We did not find anything that there was any kind of misconduct of that kind at all," Susan Pittman, a spokeswoman for the State Department's Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs, told TPM. "It was just inappropriate."

      DynCorp says one manager present stopped the dancing halfway through after "recognizing that the situation was culturally insensitive." At the State Department's request, DynCorp fired several managers involved and flew "senior leadership" to Afghanistan to do face-to-face ethics training.

      "They responded responsibly," the State spokeswoman said.

      I'm puzzled; where's the horrible human rights abuse, or even anything remotely salacious in the above story? The story says it's a common practice among Afghans, so why is it "culturally insensitive" for a group of contractors at a training session there to share in some loca dinner entertainment which the story in no way describes as being coerced or sexual? How is this any different from when Hillary Clinton goes on a state visit to Thailand and a troupe of local dancers performs at dinner?

      --

      Hollywood, Television, has become the dream machine. We need to take that back; each of us is a Dream Machine
    65. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      Something about the Group W bench?

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    66. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      ...and the Intelligence Community is not authorized to collect on US Persons, except where allowed by law or authorized by a properly adjudicated warrant from a court of law. I know people on Slashdot don't like to believe this, and prefer to imagine that the sole purpose of the Intelligence Community is spying on our own citizens instead of, you know, doing the jobs they've been charged to do.

      The intelligence community's job is to spy on anyone they consider spy-worthy. It is naive in the extreme to think that they are not spying on US citizens, or that they operate under the law. These are secret organizations that disclose their full dealings to no one. Sure, they're not authorized by Congress to do many of these things, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It just means that no one without a need to know is not told.

      Seriously, how do you know what the intelligence community is up to? Based on what they tell you? Based on what the law says? You're adorable!

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    67. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      It would appear they have no access to the truely secret stuff. Which is not the same thing as the Government not having any secret stuff. It just means anonymous and wikileaks go after soft targets.

      Or it means that the truly secret, heavy duty stuff is actually kept secret. People seem to have this notion that the truth will always come out, and that someone, somewhere will always spill the beans. It's just not true. The intelligence community can and does keep well guarded secrets; secrets that would be beyond shocking of they were disclosed.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    68. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and what three letter agency do you work for?

      Dude I've seen the cabinets sitting monitoring every one and zero coming across the wire in several data centers in Atlanta GA. These are OWNED by the US Government. So do you really think they aren't also outsourcing this work too. Do you really think the government cares that they are not "Authorized" to spy on US Citizens?

      You can trust your government. Ask any Native American.

    69. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      IC agencies are bound by laws written specifically for them and if you even think about targeting a citizen you're dragged over the coals.

      Sorry, but I just don't believe that anymore. I agree that the laws exist. But I do not believe they cannot be circumvented. If a project is "black" enough, the law is an obstacle not a restraint. The CIA has been caught doing illegal stuff countless times. We must assume that there is more that was never found out. The US government in general has shown lately that it doesn't care about the law. Why should a super secret organization be any different? After all, when no one outside your group knows what you are doing, how can they know you are breaking the law?

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    70. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      That's not the case, you can't just skip at a step. There are too many checks and balances. In fact there is an entire regulated, not politically appointment, government body that can walk in at any moment and request to see documentation relating to anything they wish and 'that's classified' is not a valid response, regardless of how sensitive it is.

      Could you name that regulated, not politically appointment, government body that can walk in at any moment and request to see documentation relating to anything they wish, regardless of how sensitive it is? Because that sounds like complete bullshit.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    71. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by gmack · · Score: 1

      That was a reminder that I shouldn't post after 1 am no matter how pissed off I am about a certain topic. The meeting with the two dunces was 45 minutes at a restaurant I was stuck in for an hour.. On the upside the other 25 minutes taught me where I can buy armored cars and body armor in Madrid but I'm not certain I'll ever need that info.

    72. Re:Is this article some kind of a joke? by robsku · · Score: 1

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/08/wikileaks-reveals-that-mi_n_793816.html

      Yep, big yawn-o-rama.

      Yes, it pretty much is.

      State Department Denies Sexual Abuse of ‘Dancing Boy’

      "Of the Wikileaks cache of diplomatic cables, one of the most potentially salacious is about the entertainment at a party thrown by DynCorp, a U.S. contractor training Afghan police, in April 2009. A 17-year-old boy was hired to dance.

      In Afghanistan, hiring "dancing boys" is a long-held practice in which Afghan men hire young men and boys to dress like girls and dance at weddings and other parties. They don't hire girls, because in Afghan society men and women don't mix socially. . . .

      *snip*

      I'm puzzled; where's the horrible human rights abuse, or even anything remotely salacious in the above story? The story says it's a common practice among Afghans, so why is it "culturally insensitive" for a group of contractors at a training session there to share in some loca dinner entertainment which the story in no way describes as being coerced or sexual? How is this any different from when Hillary Clinton goes on a state visit to Thailand and a troupe of local dancers performs at dinner?

      I've seen my share of total bullshit on US media so I don't know about this, but if the linked article describes trutfully what this is about, and if the linked article I followed from that one documenting practice of this "Bacha Bazi" is truthful, well, then I can most certainly understand why this would be inappropriate at best and probably worse (not getting caught does not mean having not done anything) - especially the accusations of child prostitution stuff and such does not look good. However I'm very uncertain on what sources to trust when reading US media so I'm not saying this or that... And even then this case might be innocent, past misdeeds don't really prove anything - just does not feel right though.

      --
      In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
  2. McCarthy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    McCarthy never did anything involving citizens, use of his name here is a smear. He sought spies in the State Department.

    You all are confusing the HUAC Hhouse Un-American Activities Committee with McCarthy. HUAC kept calling citizens communists. McCarthy was in the Senate, not the house.

    1. Re:McCarthy by CanHasDIY · · Score: 5, Informative
      Summary writer probably meant "McCarthyism," Which is (and has been for quite some time) the accepted term for "the practice of making accusations of disloyalty, subversion, or treason without proper regard for evidence."

      Also, you're dead wrong in your statement that

      McCarthy never did anything involving citizens

      Unless, of course, you believe taking a position in the U.S. State Department involves surrendering citizenship (Hint: it doesn't).

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re:McCarthy by Daetrin · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's called McCarthyism for a reason. When you're the most famous and prominent person pushing a particular agenda then there's a serious possibility that the whole movement is going to become identified with you and vice versa. It doesn't really matter now which groups of people were on McCarthy's particular list, he popularized the whole "i've got a list of the bad people" thing.

      (Well okay, maybe he needs to split that particular honor with Santa Claus.)

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
    3. Re:McCarthy by Daetrin · · Score: 1

      Wow, two "Score: 2, Troll" comments, the defenders of McCarthy are out in force today! ...which seems kind of ironic or something.

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
    4. Re:McCarthy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ask any actor on the Blacklist

      But still fuck wiki leaks, just one more witchhunt

    5. Re:McCarthy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This comment makes me want to start a McCarthy Day tradition. On November 14th, every year, everyone in the State Department gets a piece of coal. We can have spinoff traditions that give pieces of coal to other groups, like maybe one group that gives coal to everyone in Hollywood.

      Unlike Christmas, there is no 'Nice' list, we just assume that everyone in a group is mildly responsible for the naughtiness displayed by that group as a whole.

      There can even be a new line of Hallmark cards, the first one looking like a regular card on the outside, but the inside has a pic of Joseph McCarthy and says "I know what you're doing, but I can't get you fired for it. Have some coal."

  3. Surprising? by sbates · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's only surprising if you believe Hollywood hype. The halls of the White House are not bristling with people hell-bent on preventing the next disaster. Life is extraordinarily mundane. The majority of the people in government are moving pages and pages of some of the most sleep-inducing content available. I'm far more apt to believe Tom Clancy's novels depicting CIA, FBI etc getting their intelligence from CNN.

    1. Re:Surprising? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >I'm far more apt to believe Tom Clancy's novels depicting CIA, FBI etc getting their intelligence from CNN.

      Al Jazeera and BBC.

    2. Re:Surprising? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I used to think of doctors as nearly infallible. Then I graduated college and realized that they, and every other human being on this planet, are just human beings. It amazes me that anything we, as a society, builds actually works. The problem with someone believing there are all these agencies out to get them is that they credit your fellow human beings too much. These agencies are not nearly as organized or capable as we give them credit for. You want to know how Rlatko Mladic, the Serbian war criminal, was caught? Some woman in the CIA asked one of his former associates, "so uh, you don't happen to know where he is, do you? I know your child is ill, and I could help get them into the States for medical treatment." That's not particularly high-tech, nor does it take much coordination, discipline, or creativity.

    3. Re:Surprising? by Dodgy+G33za · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have worked in government circles for years now, and by far the majority of people in public service are time servers whose focus is not their jobs, but rather their lives. The focus is far more on complying with policy than with outcomes, and delivering "something", whether or not that something ends up being of any use to anyone.

      Those is public service who are ambitious tend not to focus on the particular job at hand, but instead charting a path up the greasy pole.

      All in all the resemblance to a feudal court is uncanny. The peasants do the work under sufferance, the lords fight amongst each other, and any progress that is made is down to a few people with drive, or not at all.

      Actually come to think about it the private sector isn't THAT different, it is just that times have moved on and the Landed Gentry are quite happy to enact Acts of Enclosure and evict the peasants if sheep farming turns out more profitable with less headcount.

    4. Re:Surprising? by Sique · · Score: 2

      This doesn't connect very well with the reports about Ratko Mladic's arrest I've read.
      As far as I know, the local secret police of Lazarevo in the Vojvodina was arresting Ratko Mladic. While it was long suspected that enough officials in Serbia knew about his whereabouts, but some attempts to arrest him were thwarted by doing nothing or the information about a planned arrest being leaked to Ratko Mladic's environment.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    5. Re:Surprising? by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

      The focus is far more on complying with policy than with outcomes [..] Actually come to think about it the private sector isn't THAT different, it is just that times have moved on and the Landed Gentry are quite happy to enact Acts of Enclosure and evict the peasants if sheep farming turns out more profitable with less headcount.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVOXYMUW4qo

    6. Re:Surprising? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are organized enough to infringe on liberty and degrade the quality of life, and they have the full force of the US government to back them up. You don't have to be competent to screw up someone's life. Just look at the War on Drugs.

      It's not that they are out to get YOU, it's that don't even know the damage they are doing when they inadvertently knock you under the grinding wheels of justice.

    7. Re:Surprising? by elucido · · Score: 1

      I used to think of doctors as nearly infallible. Then I graduated college and realized that they, and every other human being on this planet, are just human beings. It amazes me that anything we, as a society, builds actually works. The problem with someone believing there are all these agencies out to get them is that they credit your fellow human beings too much. These agencies are not nearly as organized or capable as we give them credit for. You want to know how Rlatko Mladic, the Serbian war criminal, was caught? Some woman in the CIA asked one of his former associates, "so uh, you don't happen to know where he is, do you? I know your child is ill, and I could help get them into the States for medical treatment." That's not particularly high-tech, nor does it take much coordination, discipline, or creativity.

      And that is what concerns me. Incompetence in these agencies should concern you as well.

    8. Re:Surprising? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are correct. It was Radovan Karadzic. My apologies for unintentionally spreading misinformation.

  4. oh great idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are going to go after people who LIKE to find people like that and make them give up information?

    "good luck with that"...

    This also comes to mind...
    http://xkcd.com/538/

    1. Re:oh great idea by Larryish · · Score: 1

      $5 for a wrench?

      What sort of car boot sale charges $5 for a bloody spanner?!

  5. The start of the Revolution. by ozmanjusri · · Score: 4, Insightful
    And so many people thought the rebellion would be started by traditional heroes - macho men with guns and explosives.

    Instead, it's up to a bunch of unethical misbegotten nerds from 4Chan to save the day.

    --
    "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    1. Re:The start of the Revolution. by Sez+Zero · · Score: 0

      "... and the geek shall inherit the Earth..."

    2. Re:The start of the Revolution. by kangsterizer · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't know about you, but I trust them more than our politicians - truthfully. Says enough.

    3. Re:The start of the Revolution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "... and the geek shall inherit the scorched Earth..."

      FTFY

    4. Re:The start of the Revolution. by phantomfive · · Score: 3

      Why? I could understand if you said you didn't trust politicians at all, but trusting a bunch of guys who are just in it for the lulz seems insane. As soon as they realize you trust them, they will stab you in the back just for the fun of it. This isn't some kind of secret, it's what they do.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    5. Re:The start of the Revolution. by elucido · · Score: 1

      And so many people thought the rebellion would be started by traditional heroes - macho men with guns and explosives.

      Instead, it's up to a bunch of unethical misbegotten nerds from 4Chan to save the day.

      Yeah? 4chan and their army of mafia gangsters and former military are going to raid the Pentagon? What fantasy novels have you been reading?

    6. Re:The start of the Revolution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they are open about backstabbing, whereas politicians first lie to you and then backstab you. Anonymous seems more trustworthy.

    7. Re:The start of the Revolution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? I could understand if you said you didn't trust politicians at all, but trusting a bunch of guys who are just in it for the lulz seems insane. As soon as they realize you trust them, they will stab you in the back just for the fun of it. This isn't some kind of secret, it's what they do.

      Hence the possibility to trust them further than Ye Olde Average Politician.

    8. Re:The start of the Revolution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, fuck the government, with their fancy secrets and intelligence gathering operations. Don't let the fact that the world knows who they are, US citizens voted for them, and that they're accountable for their actions fool you. Government is teh evilz, and we have no privacy with them around.

      Instead, let's put all our faith in a bunch of unelected, unaccountable, juvenile, anonymous vigilantes and vandals who take pride in stealing information from organizations and publishing it on the internet just for fun, while doing it in secret without exposing their identities. That will show the world what we really think of the idea of privacy and how wrong it is to gather information. America! Fuck Yeah!

      Meanwhile, I'll be here contemplating the irony of a bunch of school kiddies attacking a non-government organization for what they believe are government intelligence gathering operations, while sitting in their basement believing they are immune to that same surveillance.

    9. Re:The start of the Revolution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And just because you said that we will now raise him up on a pedestal and worship him...

    10. Re:The start of the Revolution. by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

      Excellent example of taking things out of context, intentionally or not confusing two things. The kind of things Anon does, in the context of "starting the rebellion" from the gp post, they are far more trustworthy than the kinds of things the government does.

      Government has a vested interest in retaining and expanding power, to ensure their own survival. Even after their peers go to jail, Anon keeps doing things. These people have very little to lose, compared with government employees and representatives. They also have very little recourse for hiding secrets or cronyism.

      I trust Anon in the sense that they are explicit about their purpose, and hold to the line. I would not trust them to run a government. At the same time, I trust them to act as expected more than i trust government to act as expected.

      Anon will stab me in the back, if I am a big enough target. I know that, and trust that. If I ever become a target and they *don't* stab me in the back, I will actually be disappointed. Does that make more sense?

    11. Re:The start of the Revolution. by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      In other words, you trust anon more because they are much weaker than the government, and the damage they can cause you is much less.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    12. Re:The start of the Revolution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because there's a damn good chance they'll go after the bigger score than ruining the life of a nobody such as ourselves. With the government, it's absolutely guaranteed they will screw over ALL of us nobodys.

      So given a choice between guaranteed screwing over and ridiculously slim chance of being screwed over... I'm going to have to go with the latter.

    13. Re:The start of the Revolution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, they will. But since we know they will do that, we ... trust but verify.

  6. pulling on superman's cape by lophophore · · Score: 1

    Poking at the "U.S. Intelligence Community" as smart as pulling on Superman's cape or giving Batman a wedgie.

    Anonymous? Guy Fawkes masks. CIA/FBI/No Such Agency -- a near-unending supply of money, guns, badges, warrants, subpoenas, and black bag jobs -- and that's just for the U.S. citizens IN THIS COUNTRY.

    You in another country? How about a little extraordinary rendition and an all expense paid trip to a black prison?

    Just today, here on /. -- "25 Alleged Anonymous Hackers Arrested By Interpol".

    Jabbing a hornet's nest with a short stick is not smart. Not smart at all.

    --
    there are 3 kinds of people:
    * those who can count
    * those who can't
    1. Re:pulling on superman's cape by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More like pulling Hitler's coat tails...

    2. Re:pulling on superman's cape by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      um.. all they gotta do is say you are a terrorist and its off to some prison indefinitely

    3. Re:pulling on superman's cape by uhuru_meditation · · Score: 1

      Even South Park film proclaimed: " We have no intelligence!" ...and it is a fact. Bigger the system - bigger the failure...

    4. Re:pulling on superman's cape by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

      The only coat tails worth pulling, lest you throw your life away riding them.

    5. Re:pulling on superman's cape by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Poking at the "U.S. Intelligence Community" as smart as pulling on Superman's cape or giving Batman a wedgie.

      Anonymous? Guy Fawkes masks. CIA/FBI/No Such Agency -- a near-unending supply of money, guns, badges, warrants, subpoenas, and black bag jobs -- and that's just for the U.S. citizens IN THIS COUNTRY.

      You in another country? How about a little extraordinary rendition and an all expense paid trip to a black prison?"

      You are a coward.

      You assume this will bring you safety.

      You need to read more history.

    6. Re:pulling on superman's cape by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      giving Batman a wedgie.

      That would be hilarious. They should put it into the next movie.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  7. Seriously? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Vice magazine writing now merits the front page of /.?

  8. logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by ClioCJS · · Score: 5, Insightful
    "The fact that they "spy" on activists or whatever their corporate clients pay them to do has ZERO to do with US intelligence agencies."

    If US intelligence has access to the results of their spying, OR pays for it, then it has WAY MORE THAN ZERO to do with it.

    Nice try at 2 + 2 = 5, though. It would be commendable if you had the balls to not be anonymous about it.

    --
    -Clio
    Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
    Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
    1. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2+2 DOES equal 5, for very large values of 2...

      DUH -_- (bad math/CS joke)

    2. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      Wrong.

      The IC does not pay for, nor does it have access to, the kind of work product relating to US Persons that Stratfor was putting together for corporate/business customers. The law on this is exceedingly clear. I know you "want to believe" that somehow things like Stratfor are used as an end-run around the law by the Intelligence Community, but it's not the case.

      But then, you already believe that the IC is full of evil liars and lawbreakers anyway, so why would they need to Stratfor to do their dirty work? Reading things like this article, and comments from people like you, make me seriously wonder why I even choose to serve my country every day. I try to channel Voltaire, but I just can't. Congratulations on choosing ignorance.

      I hope you all get what you wish for and that you like China as a global steward.

    3. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This guy is talking ignorance while he's pushing the propaganda line. Sure the IC would never violate the law and they certainly have no interest in what private citizens are doing and saying. If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

    4. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      seriously wonder why I even choose to serve my country every day.

      The US military spend MILLIONS of dollars every year to keep enlisted people from forming an independent opinion.

      Stop for a few minutes and go compare searches for the word "Wiretapping" on google or BBC news from a connection that isn't on base with one that is, and you might be a little bit surprised.

      --posting AC to CYA.

    5. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, "pushing the propaganda line". Just because abuses exist and have happened doesn't mean it's ALL abuses. I wish people like you could just for a day see the work that the various pieces of the IC actually do. It would probably make your brain explode. The vast, overwhelming majority of it has nothing to do with Americans, and when it does, requires an individualized warrant. The FISA Amendments Act of 2008, which people like you think is evil, actually is stronger on US Persons than previous law.

      Also, the fact that SOME people in government any society may "care" what "private citizens" are doing is exactly why we have laws that explicitly and expressly prohibit it. You make the mistake of believing just because something "can" be done, it must be being done, and done all the time. Except we live in a society based on the rule of law. I feel sad for you — I really do. Living in a world where you hate your own government, and believing they're all out to get you, when in reality they don't care.

    6. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by NormalVisual · · Score: 2, Informative

      Except we live in a society based on the rule of law.

      Yeah, that mattered a lot to the NSA in collusion with AT&T.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    7. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 2

      But then, you already believe that the IC is full of evil liars and lawbreakers anyway

      Proven cases of rendition isn't enough for you?

    8. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by Johann+Lau · · Score: 0, Troll

      "I hope you all get what you wish for and that you like China as a global steward."

      Oh noes, the Russians are coming! No wait, it's America that has bases all over the world and is continually engaging in war. Nice try though -- does that still work on anyone?

      If that's you "serving your country", then you serving your country isn't worth the dirt under my shoes. You are helping administering an illegal occupation (of America, by private institutions) and that's all you do. Now "go sit in a trench until we need you to kill somebody".

    9. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by daveschroeder · · Score: 5, Informative

      "Collusion". LOL. Now then:

      Traffic metadata (things like email "envelope" information, source and destination IPs, etc.) has long been fair game without a warrant as the digital analogue of a "pen register" under Smith v. Maryland 442 US 735 (1979), and is part of the provision that supports lawful NSA data collection under the FISA Amendments Act of 2008 and other law, in conjunction with telecommunication operators like AT&T. The content of traffic of US Persons is NOT fair game, without a properly adjudicated warrant.

      The FISA Amendments Act of 2008, passed by a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress, allows for foreign intelligence collection on non-US Persons without a warrant, no matter where the collection occurs. The longstanding Smith v. Maryland allows for the collection and examination of communications metadata without a warrant. The FISC ruling explicitly finds legal such collection under the now-sunset Protect America Act and the current FISA Amendments Act of 2008.

      In order to determine which traffic content may be collected for foreign intelligence purposes, the traffic metadata must be examined. Even when a target in question is a specific non-US Person of foreign intelligence interest, traffic metadata must first be examined in order to target that person! Because examining traffic metadata was found explicitly legal and Constitutional three decades ago by the United States Supreme Court, doing so in order to target legitimate foreign intelligence collection is a legal application in the digital world.

      The major issues for foreign SIGINT were twofold:

      - A lot of traffic is now digital versus analog, and cannot be targeted by aiming a directional antenna at a particular geographic locale. It is now traveling largely via things like fiber optic cables, intermixed with all manner of other communications. In order to target the collection, it is no longer a case of tapping a single landline telephone, or sitting on a Navy vessel offshore from some area of interest between individuals talking on two-way radios; it's finding that traffic in a sea of global digital communications.

      - Foreign communications of non-US Persons physically outside of the US was increasingly traveling through the US. Previously fair game for foreign intelligence collection throughout the history of such collection in the United States, it suddenly became off-limits without a warrant because it was incidentally routed through locations in the United States. Foreign intelligence collection on non-US Persons outside of the US does not require a warrant, and fundamentally still shouldn't simply because their traffic happens to enter the US.

      This was a case of changing technology necessitating an update to a law. A supermajority of both houses of Congress agreed. Some comments:

      Sen. Dianne Feinstein:

      "This bill, in some respects, improves even on the base bill, the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. It provides clear protections for U.S. persons both at home and abroad. It ensures that the Government cannot conduct electronic surveillance on an American anywhere in the world without a warrant. No legislation has done that up to this point."

      Then-DNI Mike McConnell:

      "Now here's the other thing that most Americans don't appreciate, haven't been exposed to. When we redid that law, the law now says any U.S. person, any U.S. person, that's targeted for foreign intelligence must be protected by a warrant anywhere on the globe. So we actually have a much more stringent law today protecting Americans and civil liberties."

      "The debate and the dilemma for us is how do you modernize that law for the modern age? And we debated. For two years we debated and we finally came to closure. The good news is when it was finally voted, two-thirds of the House and two-thirds of the Senate voted for it and here's what it says today: if it's a U.S. person anywhere in the globe, you must have a warrant."

      Unfortunately, this discussion is so mired in politics, pe

    10. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by dwillden · · Score: 1

      Thank you for explaining that far better than I could of.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    11. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

      Sure, the CIA isn't authorized to spy on American Citizens but that does not apply to both the NSA and the FBI who are authorized. The reason the CIA isn't authorized is turf building by J. Edward Hoover of the FBI. He managed to get domestic spying restricted to the FBI using the argument that any efforts by Military assets would be a waste of their time and efforts when the Dept. Of Defense (Pentagon) should be concerned with Russia and other potential military agressors. Simply put, he told Congress that the military didn't have the needed manpower or expertise to handle domestic inteligence gathering and got the restriction codified into the agencies mandates. Of course, the NSA being the National Security Agency is authorized to spy on American Citizens though they usually don't and it's not because of resources but the signal to noise ratio. They've got enough with trying to figure out what the next leader of Cuba is going to have for dinner.

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    12. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by runeghost · · Score: 1

      Except we live in a society based on the rule of law.

      What country do you live in? It sounds like a nice place, and it certainly isn't the United States where I live.

    13. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by zill · · Score: 2

      The law on this is exceedingly clear.

      No one ever breaks the laws, am I right? Especially not the government.

      The IC broke the laws countless times before. What makes you think it won't happen again?

    14. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by gadzook33 · · Score: 1

      Thank you, that's fantastic. I'm sick of reading this self-righteous drivel on slashdot.

    15. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You've raised some fascinating legal points. Unfortunately, in practice, the entire set of legal restrictions are and have been worked around for years.

      For illegal political or industrial espionage, the records and data from existing monitoring are never exposed to judicial review. There's no trustworthy way to verify that the monitoring is _only_ done legally, due to the secrecy of the raw data. This makes it far, far too easy to abuse in extra-legal fashions: the law can be, and is, treated as a meaningless scrap of paper because the courts and Congress at large _are not informed_ of the extent of the monitoring. The best recent case of this is the fiber optic taps on AT&T's core data lines, for which immunity was granted after the taps were publicly revealed by a whistleblower. (This is what whistleblowers are _for_.)

      Another obvious issue is that the US security forces trade internationally for information. We don't need a warrant to obtain US communications that were monitored by UK, German, Turkish, or other allied security forces. We just need to swap data they are interested in that we gathered legally under the very laws you mention. This sort of jurisdictional horse-trading is precisely how the US conducts illegal torture of "terrorist" suspects and ignores international treaties on treatment of prisoners: we simply find a partner who can do it legally, or illegally, in their own country.

    16. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          Actually.....

          The CIA is primarily for international intelligence. The FBI is for domestic intelligence. The NSA can operate in either theater. DIA is for gathering intelligence for military actions. NGA and NRO watch anything that can be seen from space. TFI works anywhere where money is. I could go on with the alphabet soup, but there's probably a limit to the length of comments. :)

          The CIA can, and has, been conducting presidential authorized domestic operations since the 1960's.

          I love the title of the article though. A group of people who like to think that they are anonymous, and a group that like publishing documents gathered from dubious sources, think they can take on the intelligence community. Nerds with computers, versus the best trained people in the world, with the best intelligence possible, every weapon in any arsenal, and a blanket order from the POTUS giving them free reign to do as they please.

          That's kinda like going into a biker bar on their busiest night, and insulting them, while holding a comb like a knife. Well except the intelligence community is better at hiding the bodies, and if they are found, a national security letter will stop any investigation to how it got there.

          Without doubt, one or several intelligence agencies are already embedded in both Anonymous and Wikileaks. They already know everyone involved, where they live, where they work, what they drive, where they are at any given time, and the quietest way to permanently extract them from the human population.

          Picking such a fight is suicide. Well, when the intelligence community finally decides that they have stepped up from being an annoyance to being a threat.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    17. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by Omestes · · Score: 2

      The FISA Amendments Act of 2008, which people like you think is evil, actually is stronger on US Persons than previous law

      Right, a secret court as an example of how much my government cares about freedoms. You might be right. But we will never be able to know since it is... erm... secret. Without any oversight or transparency, I'd rather error on the side of malfeasance than "trust" (which our government is sourly lacking). Only morons trust the government because it says you can trust it.

      I wish people like you could just for a day see the work that the various pieces of the IC actually do.

      Yep... trust us, we're the good guys. I don't believe any claim not backed by solid, hard, evidence. The government isn't an exception, hell I demand MORE evidence just because of our governments truly shitty track record (woo, torture!, woo, destroy habeas corpus!, woo secret warrants, woo USA PATRIOT ACT!). Telling me something is very different than proving something. And sure, its for my own good. Right. THIS IS MY GOVERNMENT. I tell them what is for my own good, and not the other way around. Arrogant pricks.

      Yes, I knew a guy in Iraq (in the IC community) who witnessed the "IC" community torturing random (and presumably innocent) Iraqis for information. I knew a guy who was in Abu Ghraib right before the shit hit the fan (who got punished for that again? Peons, or those responsible?). I've know a large enough amount of people in the military (both in and out of the "IC" area) to have my faith severely degraded in their super-human abilities. I'm guessing the non-military IC community is just as bad, since they have huge amounts of power, and no culpability.

      Give me transparency and oversight, and I will give you trust.

      . Except we live in a society based on the rule of law. I feel sad for you

      Again, where is the proof? I'm not allowed to know of any abuses, nor any consequences for them... So I'm supposed to blindly trust my government? Because... well... we're AMERICA, and we're the BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, because WE ARE AMERICA. Right.

      Living in a world where you hate your own government, and believing they're all out to get you, when in reality they don't care

      Do they care? Care to offer any proof? Oh, sure they care about my safety, just like a mamma cares about her babies (sadly they aren't my mom, and I'm not a baby). Sure, they don't care about me because I'm a small fish, and a law abiding citizen who isn't a threat. But I also care about the rights of people who are threats, and might not be law abiding. I care about EVERYONE'S rights, since thats the point. Rights don't just apply to me, they also apply to people I don't like. Further, the government should never be trusted without proof, ever. Power without consequence is not good for lil' old innocuous me. A small, and healthy, dose of paranioa is. Keeping the government feeling threatened (especially super secret, non-transparent, spooks) is REALLY good for me (and the rest of us, even those people who I don't like or agree with).

      Furthermore, people said the same things as you during McCarthyism, and the reign of Mr. Hoover, and the era of black listing. Obviously the secret spooks are keeping us safe from whatever the secret spooks want to keep us safe from... and we'll never know. Or at least won't know for decades after it can no longer potentially embarrasses those in power. Or so history teaches.

      I'm not paranoid. I don't think my government hates me (they don't give a shit, which is also a problem). I also know respect is earned. And abuses happen, even systemic ones.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    18. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by Omestes · · Score: 1

      Legal and moral or ethical are not even close to the same thing. Legal (as in it is currently law) and Constitutional are not the same thing either. The government is not right by default. Just because you legally can do something does not mean you should.

      Having a majority of our ethically and morally dubious congress critter say something is hunky dory does not make it so.

      Further, and I said this before, how the hell am I supposed to trust the government if I'm not allowed to know anything? Should I trust them based off of tautology?

        We are trustworthy, because we are trustworthy? Trust us.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    19. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good summary, but with regards to the Metadata,
            perhaps there is a difference between
                looking at a particular pen register because something bad recently happened nearby
            versus
                  always looking at all the pen registers.

      The first is a time honored police technique which seems fair.
      The second seems a much broader power enabled by this thing called Internet which we are still sorting out the social rules for.

      I'm not saying that the new rules are wrong, just that they are new rules, different from the simple pen register examination.

    20. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I got some pleasant ocean front property in Alberta ... if you are under the mistaken belief that your Rights and Freedoms are not under constant attack from the Nazi controlled Corporations in the US ...

    21. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      But then, you already believe that the IC is full of evil liars and lawbreakers anyway, so why would they need to Stratfor to do their dirty work? Reading things like this article, and comments from people like you, make me seriously wonder why I even choose to serve my country every day.

      When you keep secrets, people will assume the worst. I assume you work for some organization like the NSA, rather than one like the CIA. When you run covert, black ops, there is no guarantee the law will be followed. And if it isn't, no one of consequence will find out.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    22. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Good Lord, what a wall of text. Yes, collusion. The telecoms had to be given retroactive immunity for breaking the law at the government's request. https://www.eff.org/press/archives/2008/07/09 . Further, the 2008 FISA revision had to be enacted to make legal what the President had been ordering illegally.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    23. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Picking such a fight is suicide"
      And yet, oppress a people long enough, hard enough, and such suicidal fights get picked for lack of other choices.
      This applies as much to the "terrorists" packing IED's as to the French/Polish/Spanish Resistance or the Indigenous peoples in Central America; all backed into corners by Fascist overlords and their stormtrooping henchmen.
      Not to be a drama queen, but taking a stand is usually suicidal in the long run if you're in it for the long haul. Being "annoy mous" goes with the territory.

      Also, FWIW, the odds always seem to favor the underdog. Historically, the little guy wins in the end; despite the tremendous costs.

    24. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

      The truth hurts, hmm? ^^

    25. Re:logic from an anoymous coward? Heh. by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

      You have to pick your fights well. They have ... chosen poorly.

            I do not see massacres, genocide, or mobs of henchmen going door to door looking for illegal computer operators. I see two groups who have been picking fights with the government, and the government has been viewing them as an irrelevant threat. Stepping that up to make themselves a relevant threat is a horrible idea. They are not prepared for the potential response. That is, real world violence, incarceration, and potentially death.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  9. The lack of government intellegence by mrquagmire · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...became painfully obvious after the 9/11 attacks and subsequent "WMDs" in Iraq. I could honestly not believe how much our government didn't know about what was going on in our own country, let alone the rest of the world.

    --
    giggity
    1. Re:The lack of government intellegence by daveschroeder · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The fact that I can't believe we're equating Stratfor with the entire Intelligence Community aside...perhaps an examination of the Iraq WMD situation is in order.

      There is no truth. There is only perception. — Gustave Flaubert

      The motto of CIA's National Clandestine Service is the Latin Veritatem Cognoscere: Know the truth. It's no wonder that so many believe the function of intelligence services is to discover the "truth".

      Mark Lowenthal spends time explaining that intelligence is not about truth at all, but rather about arriving at some informed conclusion about reality, or possible future realities, neither of which can be considered strictly to be "truth".

      "Intelligence is not about truth. If something were known to be true, states would not need intelligence agencies to collect the information or analyze it. Truth is such an absolute term that it sets a standard that intelligence rarely would be able to achieve. It is better — and more accurate — to think of intelligence as proximate reality. Intelligence agencies face issues or questions and do their best to arrive at a firm understanding of what is going on. They can rarely be assured that even their best and most considered analysis is true. Their goals are intelligence products that are reliable, unbiased, and honest (that is, free from politicization). These are all laudable goals, yet they are still different from truth." (Lowenthal 2009)

      Perhaps the biggest issue with "truth" in intelligence work is the absolute nature of "truth". If it is an analyst's job to find the "truth", then any deviation from that analysis by actual events means that the analysis was a "lie".

      "Is intelligence truth-telling? One of the common descriptions of intelligence is that it is the job of 'telling truth to power'. (This sounds fairly noble, although it is important to recall that court jesters once had the same function.) Intelligence, however, is not about truth. (If something is known to be true then we do not need intelligence services to find it out.) Yet the image persists and carries with it some important ethical implications. If truth were the objective of intelligence, does that raise the stakes for analysis? [...] A problem with setting truth as a goal is that it has a relentless quality. [...if] an analyst's goal is to tell the truth — especially to those in power who might not want to hear it — then there is no room for compromise, no possible admission of alternative views." (Lowenthal 2009)

      This creates an environment where success is impossible, because discovering "truth" by every measure is a standard that can never be reached. It also discourages differing analytic viewpoints, each of which may be equally valid. Ultimately, someone needs to look at the available information and make a decision:

      "[T]he role of intelligence is not to tell the truth but to provide informed analysis to policy makers to aid their decision making." (Lowenthal 2009)

      The greatest enemy of any one of our truths may be the rest of our truths. — William James

      Clark (2010) takes a different approach, likening analysis to legal wrangling in a courtroom, where the truth is discovered by the back-and-forth of the adversarial process. Like truth itself, defining the barriers to finding it can be just as subjective. Clark highlights three important facets which must be ascertained before ultimately arriving at the "truth":

      Is it the truth? — Is the information in question a fact, or an opinion? Does it conflict with other information? Or does other information support the same conclusion? All-source analysis can help confirm information that is collected via one discipline, helping to establish a hypothesis as fact.

      Is it the whole truth? — The reliability of the source, whether technical or human, must be critically considered. Is the information incomplete? A lie of omission, or significant missing information, can erase whatever "truth" is being supp

    2. Re:The lack of government intellegence by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      I could honestly not believe how much our government didn't know about what was going on in our own country, let alone the rest of the world.

      An honest assessment of history shows that the CIA is almost always wrong. The President could have a coin minted that said 'Intelligence' and flip it and do better.

      If you believe their intelligence units are their reason for being, then you need to ask why they're constant re-authorized. Or, perhaps, understand that the question assumes a false basis.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    3. Re:The lack of government intellegence by daveschroeder · · Score: 1

      There's a saying in Washington, first articulated by Thomas Fingar:

        "I learned something a long time ago in this town. There are only two possibilities: policy success and intelligence failure."

      If we're going to be "honest" about it, the fact is that you can say that "the CIA is almost always wrong" is because the public generally only sees the failures, and almost never the successes.

    4. Re:The lack of government intellegence by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      After the invasion, only then did we discover that the US analysis was almost all wrong. But was the analysis in fact wrong?

      How else can you judge analysis except against reality? Maybe on proper penmanship? Israel has WMD. Britain has WMD. China has WMD. Pakistan has WMD. Why on Earth would any sensible analysis of WMD lead anyone to invade Iraq instead of one of those other countries?

      Here's my analysis for you: invest all your money in SCOX. I hear they've got Copyrights of Mass Destruction with which they'll bring down IBM.

    5. Re:The lack of government intellegence by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the public generally only sees the failures, and almost never the successes

      Well, it's a matter of how 'success' is defined. Sure the CIA was 'succesful' in overthrowing The Sha in Iran, but the results were disastrous (see the front page of any paper). Repeat for any number of South and Central American countries, Pol Pot, etc.

      If you want to claim that there are secret successes that nobody knows about - well, don't expect us to prove the negative.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    6. Re:The lack of government intellegence by martin-boundary · · Score: 1
      Well, there's a lot of prevarication in your comment. The first quote by Mark Lowenthal is not very encouraging:

      "Intelligence is not about truth. If something were known to be true, states would not need intelligence agencies to collect the information or analyze it. Truth is such an absolute term that it sets a standard that intelligence rarely would be able to achieve.

      That makes no sense. Of course it takes people and information collections to obtain the truth, even if it is already known by others. Not everyone has all the answers. But changing the meaning of truth to make it easier to claim "I done found the truth, mister" is disingenious and self-defeating.

      Perhaps the biggest issue with "truth" in intelligence work is the absolute nature of "truth". If it is an analyst's job to find the "truth", then any deviation from that analysis by actual events means that the analysis was a "lie".

      Yes, that's a great way to summarize the intelligence failure with Iraqi WMD. The analysts had no truth, but sugar coated some politically motivated suspicions.

      Part of what the phrase knowing the truth means is knowing when you don't know anything, and refraining from filling in the blanks with wishful thinking in that case.

      So, what was the truth? In this case, the truth, as established prior to 2003, is that Saddam Hussein had the intent and capability to possess WMD. Without physically discovering WMD themselves, all information, history, and evidence â" even when viewed in the context of contradictory evidence â" indicated that Saddam Hussein had WMD.

      Pure drivel. Hearsay isn't truth. What is true is that extensive searches after the fact didn't find any. See the difference? Facts and experimentation work. Wishful thinking and redefining truth as informed opinion don't work. Call a spade a spade. Let's see how that makes a difference in a later part of your comment.

      Unfortunately, the most important aspect â" namely, Iraq actually having WMD â" ended up being absent. When the policy of containment with regard to Iraq changed to a more aggressive posture after 9/11, the truth pointed to Iraqi possession of WMD. This enabled policymakers to push forward with a policy to remove Saddam from power. That's the simple fact, whether you want to believe it or not (or, as some wish to do, rewrite history). This has nothing to do with whether I, you, or anyone else believes invading Iraq was a good idea â" that's a separate discussion.

      Wrong. Hearsay and opinion pointed to Iraqi possession of WMD. See how this works? When truth isn't abused into a meaningless political football, the chain breaks where it should: At that point, cowardly policymakers can't rely on a fake truth to prop up or justify their policies. They can still decide any policy they like, but they have to stick their necks out on the chopping block to do so. "Let's invade Iraq". "Why?". "Hearsay and opinion says Iraq is a danger to the world".

      After the invasion, only then did we discover that the US analysis was almost all wrong. But was the analysis in fact wrong? This is remembered by many, incorrectly, as an example of "politicized intelligence". In fact, it is simply an illustration of how intelligence is not about truth, but rather is a vehicle to inform the decisions of policy makers.

      Yes, the analysis was in fact wrong. Part of politicizing intelligence is precisely claiming that the analysis wasn't wrong, or only for certain values of the truth.

      Truth relies on facts, and ruthlessly excludes opinion and wishful thinking. Within the discipline of searching for the truth, it is important that one objectively evaluates past analyses as right or wrong.

    7. Re:The lack of government intellegence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In retrospect, everyone seems to miss the obvious answer to what actually happened. Of course Iraq tried to stiff the UN Weapons inspectors. Iraq believed that their national security depended on other countries believing that they had weapons of mass destruction. Namely, from Iraq's perspective, the country most likely to invade them was not the United States. They believed their biggest threat was Iran. Iraq also likely believed (just as many believe now) that Iran was developing weapons of mass destruction. Therefore, their best strategy was to convince Iran that they also secretly had a bunch of weapons of mass destruction. At the same time, Iraq likely believed that so long as the weapons inspectors could not find evidence of them actually having a lot of weapons of mass destruction, that we would not invade. So, their best strategy was to maintain the capability to rapidly stand up a program to make WMD, without actually having it running. Also, they needed to provide some kind of misinformation that they had weapons, but that the weapons inspectors were not finding them. Iraq pursued the optimal strategy. Unfortunately, that strategy assumed that the UN and the US would behave rationally.

             

    8. Re:The lack of government intellegence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This would probably also apply for Syria if some hard action is taken. The US would succeed in overthrowing the president, and through that also in weakening Iran. However it could easily trigger civil war in Syria, and possibly even Lebanon. Through that the few thousand deaths to date would be nothing. It might also end up bringing serious new tensions between the US, Russia and China...

    9. Re:The lack of government intellegence by Patch86 · · Score: 2

      Argh, you're going to force me to undo modding for this one, but I've got to reply...

      To the best of my knowledge, the CIA absolutely did not overthrow the Shah in Iran. The Shah was a staunch ally of the US, and his overthrow (and subsequent formation of the Islamic Republic) was a complete disaster (see the front page of any newspaper). Received wisdom is that the CIA were taken completely by surprise by the popular uprising against the Shah, and that that represents one of their more embarrassing 10th century failures.

      The Shah was a brutal dictator liked by the US, not a brutal dictator disliked. It's understandably difficult to tell them apart sometimes, being identical.

    10. Re:The lack of government intellegence by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      Er, 20th century...

    11. Re:The lack of government intellegence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      A popularly elected progressive (Dr. Mohammend Mossadegh), who got even more support by nationalising the oil reserves and oil companies, drawing the ire of the UK government, was ousted in the 1953 coup d'état. This is probably the CIA "success" that the grandparent was talking about.

      This operation, while firmly putting the Shah in power, led to massive oppression using the secret police and other familiar trappings of tyrrany, which in turn led to the radicalisation and opposition of an increasing number of people, focusing on Ayatollah Khomeini, and indirectly led to his ascent to power. Had Mossadegh remained in power, it is very unlikely that Khomeini would have received the broad popular support he enjoyed.

    12. Re:The lack of government intellegence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure the CIA was 'succesful' in overthrowing The Sha in Iran, but the results were disastrous (see the front page of any paper). Repeat for any number of South and Central American countries, Pol Pot, etc

      Seems that the CIA is only successfull when it acts as a terrorist organization. Everything else about it is useless.

  10. You're a dumbass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    You're a complete and utter dumbass if you believe that US foreign intelligence agencies' primary purpose is going after US citizens.

    Hint: the CIA and NSA, and every other component of the Intelligence Community, DO NOT COLLECT ON US PERSONS unless specifically and explicitly allowed by law or executive order. And even then, even with all of the confusion with the Bush wiretapping order under the AUMF — which, by the way, has NOT been declared "illegal" by any court, and even when in full force targeted very few persons within the US, i.e., in the hundreds — targeting of US Persons REQUIRES A WARRANT. Doing ANYTHING with regard to US Persons is also a vanishingly small part of what the IC does. The vast majority of our intelligence apparatus is looking outward — that's the fucking point.

    To the extent it looks inward, it does so with very explicit and clear legal controls with respect to US Persons, and armies of lawyers approving and advising on any questionable action. If you actually worked in the Intelligence Community and saw how things worked, especially with respect to US Persons, you'd want to kill yourself for being such a fucking low-rent moron. No, literally: you'd wonder how you could have believed this bullshit for all of those years when the IC in fact isn't the evil beast you believe it to be. Yes, it's a giant bureaucracy and like any other features its own share of maddening inefficiencies, turf wars, and idiots. It got on the post-9/11 gravy train like everything else related to national security. But it's not what you think it is. The funny thing is that if you actually cared, you can easily learn this in an unclassified context.

    Of course, this is slashdot, and everyone believes there is a secret cabal trying to "keep down the common man" and that the IC's near-sole purpose is spying on US citizens, so no surprises seeing this kind of mental vomit spewed on my screen.

    1. Re:You're a dumbass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hint: the CIA and NSA, and every other component of the Intelligence Community, DO NOT COLLECT ON US PERSONS unless specifically and explicitly allowed by law or executive order.

      Does that include the illegal wiretaps that keep getting mentioned?

    2. Re:You're a dumbass by Johann+Lau · · Score: 0

      Of course, this is slashdot, and everyone believes there is a secret cabal trying to "keep down the common man"

      Yeah, and? You're not that bright, are you?

    3. Re:You're a dumbass by the_bard17 · · Score: 1

      Says the Anonymous Coward. Why do I want to call bullshit?

    4. Re:You're a dumbass by number11 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're a complete and utter dumbass if you believe that US foreign intelligence agencies' primary purpose is going after US citizens.

      I don't think anyone has said that they believe that "US foreign intelligence agencies' PRIMARY purpose is going after US citizens." Interesting, though that you inserted the qualifier "foreign" there. Are you saying that's instead the primary purpose of domestic intelligence agencies?

      Hint: the CIA and NSA, and every other component of the Intelligence Community, DO NOT COLLECT ON US PERSONS unless specifically and explicitly allowed by law or executive order.

      Now, however, you've dropped the qualifier "foreign". Perhaps you're right, though how would we know, so long as some executive orders and warrants are secret? Just have to take your word for it? I do recall a judge on the rubber-stamp Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court saying that at least some of the justifications they had been presented with were BS. Not that it stopped them from issuing warrants. Odd, at the time ATT was tapping the internet backbone and giving access to the government, there was no law permitting it (that was retroactively fixed, later).

      Of course, this is slashdot, and everyone believes there is a secret cabal trying to "keep down the common man" and that the IC's near-sole purpose is spying on US citizens

      There's that straw man again. Everyone believes that (some of) the IC does many other things besides spying on US citizens. Well, aside from the NYPD "Intelligence Division", and whoever is on the other end of the wire from those ATT backbone taps. I do hope we're not paying for IC people to make AC posts to /. though. Hopefully they're bright enough to realize that the word of an "Anonymous Coward" doesn't carry much more weight than one would expect, and can figure out how to create a user account.

    5. Re:You're a dumbass by lophophore · · Score: 1

      Nice. you disagree, so I have to be a dumbass. Brilliant. Seems like a knee-jerk reaction. What are you trying to hide?

      I never wrote that domestic intelligence gathering was the primary purpose of US Foreign Intelligence Agencies. I wrote that it was a bad idea to tempt fate by messing with any US intelligence agencies.

      By the way, the DHS, FBI, and the NYPD (for instance) have plenty of domestic intelligence gathering capability.

      By the way, insulting people with opposing viewpoints never won a debate. It just makes you look stupid.

      --
      there are 3 kinds of people:
      * those who can count
      * those who can't
  11. Don't poke the sleeping dog by RyoShin · · Score: 1

    Okay, so let's raise some ire over this. The government responds. They do so in one of two ways:

    1) Fire Stratfor, which closes and reopens under another moniker (I hear "Blackwater" is available these days), then hire "new" company at a lesser amount. (Or, if the right two people are pals, a higher amount.)

    2) Fire Stratfor, use the money to hire a competent intelligence firm.

    I think in this case we can all bitch and moan about government limpness, but should go no further. Considering the current crop of morons in power in all branches and levels, it's highly unlikely for someone to go "maybe we shouldn't hire external private firms and instead put money into doing real intelligence with our own intelligence agencies". If the article's description of Stratfor holds for other companies they hired, I'd rather let incompetence feed incompetence at this point and focus more on election reform.

  12. It doesn't take much research by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 4, Informative
    . The article states:

    In one example, emails reveal that Stratfor had been tracking the political performance art collective The Yes Men, a group famous for impersonating politicians and corporate representatives in order to showcase the absurdity and corruption present within powerful institutions. But “tracking” in this case merely involved selling the government a list of public appearances planned by the group’s members.

    but the very page they link to in that quote has the "Yes Men Monitoring" related emails being sent to:

    mkolleth@dow.com, sbwheeler@dow.com, tomm_sprick@yahoo.com, mediarelations@unioncarbide.com, CMKnochel@dow.com

    none of which suggest that they are "selling the government" this information.

    --
    Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
    1. Re:It doesn't take much research by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Mod this up to five somebody.

      Most of the posts on this thread have been total BS because nobody bothered to click that link and find out this research was paid for not by Uncle Sam, byut by Dow and it's subsidiary Union Carbide.

    2. Re:It doesn't take much research by punit_r · · Score: 2

      Please do not mod the GP to five. It is just spreading more FUD and the parent post is supporting without checking all the facts.

      The summary on every page of the wikileaks releases say the following:

      On Monday February 27th, 2012, WikiLeaks began publishing The Global Intelligence Files, over five million e-mails from the Texas headquartered "global intelligence" company Stratfor. The e-mails date between July 2004 and late December 2011. They reveal the inner workings of a company that fronts as an intelligence publisher, but provides confidential intelligence services to large corporations, such as Bhopal's Dow Chemical Co., Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and government agencies, including the US Department of Homeland Security, the US Marines and the US Defence Intelligence Agency. The emails show Stratfor's web of informers, pay-off structure, payment laundering techniques and psychological methods.

      Also, everyone who claims to have bothered to visit the website, would know that Dow was just one of the clients.
      List of clients is available here.
      List of all releases by Wikileaks is available here.

      I hope the parent post would have done some research before flaming others for making BS posts without visiting the wikileaks website.

    3. Re:It doesn't take much research by riondluz · · Score: 1

      we/one should know by now that there are many ways to get paid for things that never find their way to the invoicing dept.

      --
      resist propaganda
    4. Re:It doesn't take much research by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Reread your quote carefully.

      The original article, this story, and all the threads based on it are the premise that the work described in this exact set of emails was being done for the government. The quote you bring up says Stratfor does some work for the government, but doesn't say these precise emails were done for the government. That most of the government agencies you mention have nothing to do with this particular set of emails is pretty obvious. Even if you assume the government believes the Yes Men are the new Weatherman, the Marines and Defense Intelligence Agency would not be monitoring them. The DHS would, but the DHS was apparently not receiving these particular emails.

      Which means any conclussions you draw about government support for Stratfor based on this particular set of emails is inherently stupid. Note that one of the people I just called stupid is me. My first post on this thread was explaining why only a fool would be surprised that Stratfor was hired to do this work.

  13. Are they spying too much or too little? by guanxi · · Score: 1

    I don't understand the complaint. First pigrabbitbear complains that they are spying on private citizens, groups, etc.

    But when the article says they are not spying, but only compiling publicly available information, pigrabbitbear complains that they are spying too little.

    Which is it? Isn't the latter what privacy advocates would want? The author of the article complains about the cost, but doesn't say how much the government paid.

    And why do I trust or care what an "Electronic musician and computer culture journalist." posts to a site called vice.com? This post is a lot of noise and confusion based on nothing; one rant based on another.

  14. They must not be a threat by mwfischer · · Score: 1

    Call me cynical, but the US government must not consider them a big threat.

    Assange is still alive and wikileaks people aren't found face down in rivers.... yet.

    Just saying.

  15. yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    silly nosepickers

  16. Newsflash by crow_t_robot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Newsflash, dickbags:
    US intelligence services have ALWAYS been fucking awful. I don't care how many Jason Bourne movies you have watched, US intel has been shit since the day it started as the OSS. Please take the time to read the book, Legacy Of Ashes and you can begin to see what a clownshow US intelligence services have been for the past 60+ years.

    Love,
    Crow

    1. Re:Newsflash by PPH · · Score: 1

      Maybe. Or maybe they have their own agenda.

      Example: I remember back when India tested its first nuclear device. Supposedly, the CIA was caught off guard. Even when The Economist called it right.

      So the CIA is staffed by a bunch of morons, right? Maybe not. Perhaps they have an interest in the proliferation of nukes in that region. Both India and Pakistan have them now. They managed to acquire them with nothing like the screaming and crying that Iran's development program is causing. That was a major failure of US foreign policy. But it may have suited the CIA's interests very well.

      Any time you look at something the size of the US government or large corporations, you can't assume that they act towards one goal. Individual internal groups have their own agendas and may frequently work against each other. For all we know, all of this Wikileaks/Anonymous crap could have been engineered by some people to make current regimes inside the Pentagon, CIA and State Department look like fools.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:Newsflash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure it may have taken 10 years to find osama but we managed to take out every libyan aa site in a matter of days. How do you think we knew where they are? There is more then one type of intell fyi

    3. Re:Newsflash by tomhath · · Score: 1

      It's called "undercover" for a reason. Most of what they do you never know about because they don't want anyone to know.

    4. Re:Newsflash by zill · · Score: 1

      The CIA was caught off guard about the dissolution of the Soviet Union as well. Was there a deeper reason for that too?

    5. Re:Newsflash by zill · · Score: 1

      I heard they gave out free LSD back in the 50's. Anyone handing out free drugs is awesome in my books.

  17. WMD fiasco was not due to lack of intelligence.... by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 3, Interesting

    but rather lack of integrity. The US intelligence wouldn't give Cheney & friends an excuse to invade Iraq, so they created a new intel unit that somehow found all kinds of WMD-related intel...which, surprise, surprise, turned out to be bogus.

    --
    Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
  18. Lack of bombshell by tomhath · · Score: 1

    What I get out of the article is that Anonymous' huge stash of documents amounts to a big nothing. What did they find? It seems the good stuff is beyond the reach of a few script kiddies; imagine that.

  19. Re:WMD fiasco was not due to lack of intelligence. by daveschroeder · · Score: 1

    ...except that this office wasn't needed to make the case on Iraqi WMD. Intelligence analysis doesn't always equal reality. I explain this in great detail here.

    Forget about your own political leanings or personal biases. Without intelligence that was questionable or even potentially "manipulated" (a strong charge which requires strong evidence), the case for Iraqi WMD was still strong.

    Further, the US and its partners discovered 700,000 tons of non-WMD UN-banned weapons when we invaded. Iraq was in violation of not one, not two, but THREE binding and in-force UN Security council resolutions, any one of which allowed for the use of force with no further justification.

    Don't mistake my comment for making the claim that invading Iraq was/wasn't a good idea: just focus on what I'm saying, and don't read into it.

  20. Team Themis were all gov't contractors by decora · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The three companies that made up 'Team Themis', the team planned to help Bank of America respond to a never-completed wikileaks dump of BoA data, by character-assassinating journalists and 'activists', were all govt contractors.

    Berico Technologies - owned by ex-military, run by ex-military, major customer = us government.

    Palantir Technologies - makes software to help aggregate data about people, us govt contractor

    HB Gary - this is the one that Anonymous hacked and dumped the data on. they were a us govt contractor, and they routinely spied on all kinds of groups.

    ---

    does that prove that the govt is paying companies to spy on citizens? no. its just that dozens of companies whose main purpose and expertise is to spy on people, and who are staffed by people who spent their entire military career spying on people, just so happen to be receiving billions and billions of dollars from the government to do various jobs that we are not allowed to know about, because of 'national security'.

    now, then, of course, there is the long relationship between the US govt and private companies, and spying, going back to World War I, and then later on the ITT corporation, Western Union, and so forth. Then there was AT&T in more recent years, as well as the major phone network companies, who agreed to cooperate with NSA without caring about the law, except for QWest.

    then there are the 'fusion centers'. should i go on?

    1. Re: Team Themis were all gov't contractors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HB Gary - this is the one that Anonymous hacked and dumped the data on. they were a us govt contractor, and they routinely spied on all kinds of groups.

      You, Sir, are an idiot. Try actually reading some of the leaked emails.

      HBGary Federal was a four person company. It was essentially an attempt to make money by obtaining government contracts to non-classified government RFPs. Yes, non-classified, 100% available on the internet Requests for Proposals. Basically, the Government says, We have problem X, pitch us a way to solve it. HBGary Federal did that with a bunch of sleezy proposals... none of which the government ever accepted. For all the Anonymous hype, HBGary Federal was just another company looking to cash in on the US Government contracting game, and never succeeding. That is correct, HBGary Federal never won any Federal contracts and never made any money from the US Government, which is why the "congressional inquiry" went absolutely nowhere. If you look at the emails you will find many dealing with the impending death of the company due to lack of funding. Seriously, look through the emails. All you find is a bunch of "hey, we could make this bad ass rootkit" or "yo, we could totally bring down wikileaks for you" proposals, never any actual work being done.

      Total scam company.

    2. Re: Team Themis were all gov't contractors by elucido · · Score: 1

      HB Gary - this is the one that Anonymous hacked and dumped the data on. they were a us govt contractor, and they routinely spied on all kinds of groups.

      You, Sir, are an idiot. Try actually reading some of the leaked emails.

      HBGary Federal was a four person company. It was essentially an attempt to make money by obtaining government contracts to non-classified government RFPs. Yes, non-classified, 100% available on the internet Requests for Proposals. Basically, the Government says, We have problem X, pitch us a way to solve it. HBGary Federal did that with a bunch of sleezy proposals... none of which the government ever accepted. For all the Anonymous hype, HBGary Federal was just another company looking to cash in on the US Government contracting game, and never succeeding. That is correct, HBGary Federal never won any Federal contracts and never made any money from the US Government, which is why the "congressional inquiry" went absolutely nowhere. If you look at the emails you will find many dealing with the impending death of the company due to lack of funding. Seriously, look through the emails. All you find is a bunch of "hey, we could make this bad ass rootkit" or "yo, we could totally bring down wikileaks for you" proposals, never any actual work being done.

      Total scam company.

      I wouldn't go so far as to call it a scam company. That isn't true at all. I know a bit about the industry and the names involved in the company are known people who prior to this incident had good reputations. Now their reputations are shit but prior to this no one was talking about them as though they were a scam company.

      Nice try.

    3. Re: Team Themis were all gov't contractors by riondluz · · Score: 1

      An earlier post of yours mentioned fusion centers, which really should be getting a lot more scrutiny as its the end-run around the separation of corporate and state agencies. Any place where DHS comingles with State and Local Police to assist and influence the business community WRT national security should be a cause for alarm.

      Besides the banality of fusion, corporate and government espionage and intelligence gathering has been an ongoing concern since forever.
      In the case of this post, just s/HBG/Kroll/ to get a more clear picture. Where another has mentioned the Pinkertons, Kroll Assoc. is probably the best example of the cross-over effect in recent decades.

      Google "Kroll inc" for insightful; add +WTC for interesting

      --
      resist propaganda
  21. so you think they should free bradley manning? by decora · · Score: 3, Insightful

    because you can't have it both ways.

    either wikileaks was innocuous and had no impact on anything, because its documents were pointless gibberish.

    or bradley manning was a traitor to the country and endangered the lives of the troops because wikileaks had such sensitive important information.

    only one of those can be true. not both.

    1. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by icebike · · Score: 3, Informative

      because you can't have it both ways.

      Nope. Wrong.
      I can have it both ways. You don't get to make those rules. Its way above your pay grade missie.

      Nothing seriously damaging was revealed, but that does not mean Manning did not engage in espionage or that he did not violate his duties as a soldier.

      No harm, no foul is not the rules you play by in the real world.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by realityimpaired · · Score: 5, Insightful

      or bradley manning was a traitor to the country and endangered the lives of the troops because wikileaks had such sensitive important information.

      The effect of the information he released has nothing to do with whether he's a traitor. It's the fact that he released the information in the first place, violating the oaths and vows that he took upon joining the military. Deciding whether that material was classified was well above his pay grade, and there were/are procedures in place for him to have challenged the information if he had ethical objections. He decided to release the information anyway.

      Treason is in the intent, at least as much as it is the effect. Guy Fawkes still committed treason, even though he never succeeded at blowing up the parliament.

    3. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by the_bard17 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Manning may have committed treason against the government.

      I'm still not convinced he committed treason against his country. Don't confuse one with the other.

    4. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good to see that the (-1, Not Fascist Enough) moderation is still valid.

    5. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by runeghost · · Score: 1

      Unless you're an investment banker, or a well-connected corporate executive, or a politician.

    6. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by rtb61 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You obviously have no understanding of the law at all. Obeying an order is no excuse, ever. The individual is always bound to obeying the law, it is always their decision what should be kept secret and what should be exposed.

      Only a gutless coward sells out their honour and integrity, with pathetic excuse of they told me too.

      Your lie is a lie, it is always the individuals honour, duty, and legal responsibility to decide what is the appropriate response and what is not.

      If the material released contained evidence of crimes that were not being prosecuted then he adhered to the law. In fact all those others who failed to submit that evidence to the authorities by what ever means necessary should be charged with being accessories after the fact for all the crimes contained within the material they kept secret.

      Your view of the law, you must obey you superiors regardless, is the law of the Nazis, is the law of Stalin and Mao, it is not the law of any democracy and publicly stipulated at the Nuremberg trials http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    7. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by dkesh · · Score: 1

      Treason is defined in the constitution as:

      Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

      Any definition of treason that includes Bradley Manning also includes every newspaper in the country. Bradley Manning is accused of clear crimes; there's no reason to throw a crime he didn't commit in there as well.

    8. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His vows (like those of all of us who have served) was to protect the Constitution, and people of the United States. Not to cover up malfeasance, corruption and theft.
         

    9. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by elucido · · Score: 1

      or bradley manning was a traitor to the country and endangered the lives of the troops because wikileaks had such sensitive important information.

      The effect of the information he released has nothing to do with whether he's a traitor. It's the fact that he released the information in the first place, violating the oaths and vows that he took upon joining the military. Deciding whether that material was classified was well above his pay grade, and there were/are procedures in place for him to have challenged the information if he had ethical objections. He decided to release the information anyway.

      Treason is in the intent, at least as much as it is the effect. Guy Fawkes still committed treason, even though he never succeeded at blowing up the parliament.

      It isn't treason unless lives were lost. But it's certainly against the law what he did.

    10. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by Sarius64 · · Score: 1

      You're wrong. He signed a user agreement stating he would never under any circumstance reveal the information he oversaw to anyone unauthorized to see it and also having a directly authorized need-to-know by cognizant authority. Sadly, the fantasies you make up can get you thrown in jail, mate.

    11. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by Killall+-9+Bash · · Score: 1

      violating the oaths and vows that he took upon joining the military

      Like defending the constitution from all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC...?

      --
      "Prediction: within 10 years, Windows will be a Linux distribution." Me, 7-6-2016
    12. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Manning may have committed treason against the government.

      I'm still not convinced he committed treason against his country. Don't confuse one with the other.

      The government is by definition an extension of the People. The People are the country. Treason against one is treason against the other, by definition.

    13. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, I had no idea he was actively involved in actually pulling the trigger and killing innocent civilians, and that while he was doing all of that, he was also visiting and paying off opium farmers so they'd grow a more innocuous crop, and that in spite of all of that work load, he also had the time to visit every single informant and listen to them, and take down the information they were giving. That changes everything!

      The Nuremberg defense isn't a defense if you actually committed the atrocities. On this we agree. However Manning didn't have anything to do with the events in question, he simply decided that rather than following the established procedure and protocols in place to challenge the information, he'd rather download it onto a USB stick and give it to the media. He wasn't even selective about the information he released: most of it was completely innocuous, but he decided to release it all and damn the consequences. If you can't actually see the distinction between the two, then perhaps you shouldn't be pontificating, and you absolutely shouldn't be making a comparison to the Nazis, for fear of somebody invoking Godwin's law.

      No. He released classified information to the public. By necessity of the medium he chose, that public includes the enemy. We can argue about the legitimacy of that enemy until we run out of breath if you like, but the bottom line is that he provided aid to the enemy, in the form of material intelligence that his superiors had deemed to be secretive in nature. That's the very definition of treason, which is a capital crime in the military. If he wanted to maintain his honour, then he could have resigned from the military over it, and thus, no longer be part of the apparatus keeping the information secret. Or here's a thought: he could have followed the established procedure to challenge the information through the chain of command.

      I'm not here to argue idealogical points about whether he did the right thing. It doesn't matter whether I agree with what he did ethically, what matters is that the actions he took went well beyond what was legal for him to do. Even Karl Marx said that if you want to change the system, you have to do it from within, because once you're outside the system, you won't be able to effect change. Manning stepped so far beyond the established system that any reaction to what he did will be to further empower the existing system. He was misguided and naive at best, and an idiot at worst, and regardless of where I personally stand on the matter, I refuse to defend his actions.

    14. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and you know if you're going to be an abusive prick. you should post anonymously.

    15. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by heathen_01 · · Score: 1

      Even Karl Marx said that if you want to change the system, you have to do it from within, because once you're outside the system, you won't be able to effect change. Manning stepped so far beyond the established system that any reaction to what he did will be to further empower the existing system.

      This is also the reason why the U.S.A did not fight a revolutionary war and is still part of the British empire.

    16. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by Larryish · · Score: 1

      BEST!!!

      GODWIN!!!

      EVAR!!!!!111

      Seriously, man, that was beautiful.

      Now for a lot of crap to pass the lameness filter.

      fdhisdofhdioshuiodshfiosdufhsduiohfiosduhfoisdf
      79789534 hfdshifsduiofhiodshfuisdhfuisdhiuofhsdiu

    17. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm guessing you aren't a lawyer either. There is such a thing as a unlawful order, but that doesn't make all military laws unlawful orders. Manning violated multiple lawful orders. Obeying your superior is a common military law doctrine. There are military procedures on how to report if something untoward is going on. There is no such crime reporting law though. If you as the public see a crime, you are not obligated by law to report.

      Manning released all sorts of material. Are you asserting that every document released contained evidence of a crime?

    18. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, you.

      You realize that thoughtful, well-reasoned arguments have no weight in this matter, right?

      If you're on slashdot, you toe the party line and worship at the altar of Assange, or you get modded to oblivion to prevent your scurrilous hatethink from reflecting badly on the dear wikileaker.

    19. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by Americano · · Score: 1

      Any definition of treason that includes Bradley Manning also includes every newspaper in the country.

      Except the newpapers have a constitutional protection from government interference in the form of prior restraint, and lawsuits involving the government's attempts to invoke prior restraint against news outlets have STILL gone all the way to the Supreme Court.

      And, except that PFC Manning is subject to the UCMJ - specifically, article 106a, which covers espionage and its punishment. Espionage can most definitely be a "type" of treason under the definition you've provided (do you really think that leaking classified information can't be argued to be "giving aid to the enemy"?), and if the allegations against him are true, it's pretty clear that what he did falls under the definition of espionage.

      And, except that the NEWSPAPERS didn't illegally access a classified system to take hundreds of thousands of records and publish them to the world.

      Yeah, you're right, there's no difference whatsoever between the sad case of PFC Manning and the New York Times and other prior restraint cases.

    20. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      You... do realize that the only reason the Americans actually won their revolution was because of a combination of German/French generals providing tactics/training, and the fact that the bulk of the British military was too busy beating up the French to bother with the colonies? Look at the campaign from 1812 to 1814, when Madison decided to liberate Canada from the evil British, if you need further proof of what the British military was capable of when they weren't busy with the French.

      In short, do you know why the White House is painted white, and the historical events your national anthem is about? As far as the British were concerned, Washington and his lot *were* traitors, and if they'd had the resources at the time, they would have thoroughly smacked down his revolution, and Washington would have been put to death for his troubles.

      There were, however, ways to win independence that didn't involve breaking with the system in such a way. You don't seriously think that Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and India all won their independence through revolution, do you? The last two of those had multiple failed revolutions, and all four of them ultimately won their independence through diplomacy. Similarly, if you want to change the military establishment in the US, you'd do well to try to change it from within. As it stands now, they have more than enough resources to lay a smackdown on anybody who's stupid enough to try to break away and attack from outside, like Manning did.

      Ironically, the US break from Britain by way of revolution actually led to a much later end to slavery in the US, as well as the rise of Eugenics and much of the racial tension that surrounded the civil rights movement in the 1960's. Those issues were basically done in Canada, Australia, NZ, and pretty much everywhere else within the Empire 100 years before Martin Luther King was even born, so I would hardly say that it's been good for your country.

    21. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by Que914 · · Score: 1

      violating the oaths and vows that he took upon joining the military

      Having taken that same oath, I completely disagree. The oath goes something to the effect of "I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, both foreign and domestic ... and obey the orders of those above me."

      The order in that oath is deliberate and very important. I see Bradley Manning's leak of information as an execution of his oath, not a violation of it.

    22. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Before discounting the understanding of others, you might want to review a little military history, because you obviously haven't the first clue of what you're talking about. The only person convicted in connection with the My Lai Massacre was U.S. Army Lt. William Calley. Most of the enlisted men were no longer part of the military so could not be legally charged, but those still enlisted were acquitted because it was determined that they had not received training of what constituted a lawful order. That was training reserved for officers.

      Obeying and order is most certainly an excuse in a court martial, and a valid one.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    23. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mighty fine use of the transitive property right there.

    24. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by riondluz · · Score: 1

      Thank-you for reminding us of that which, ultimately, is unequivocal.

      --
      resist propaganda
    25. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by riondluz · · Score: 1

      And when the Prosecutor stands before the judge he represents "The People". Funny that. As most commoners never see equal treatment under the law. $ talks. Cops cook books and prisoners are revenue sources.

      Our government today is the least popular in U.S. history. It does not speak for the people but for Corporations and their lobbys.
      Consent is manufactured while the greatest wealth in U.S. history has just been transfered from public to private hands.

      "by definition an extension..."
      Hardly by any definition I recognize.

      --
      resist propaganda
    26. Re:so you think they should free bradley manning? by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      If he had sent it directly to an actual enemy of the state then there would be a good arguement for it being Aiding the Enemy. As it is he caused it to be released to the public at large, where the enemy could then get at it, although not explicitly for that purpose. There are seperate charges for releasing classified information which are applicable. Aiding the Enemy is going over the top and just trying to grand stand. Which could prove to be a bad move if a jury member hangs up on it and they can't reach a verdict.

      As for resigning from the military, that's effectively impossible for an enlisted person. Once every four to six years you can decide if you'd like to stay in. Periodically they offer early outs but those are always restricted to a specific set of jobs and such. In the meantime you are subject to being let go or forced into a completely different job at the governments whim. I did it for six years because it was the best option at the time. But such strongly one sided contracts are obvious traps, I gambled and won, but not everyone comes out ahead.

  22. Client vs Subscriber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clearly the author doesn't know or care about the difference between some person with a .gov email being a subscriber to the same stuff Stratfor sells to everybody else on its mailing list, and some agency with Cogressional funds contracting with Stratfor to do something exclusive. If it were the latter, it would be COTS intel. That's what the idiots at Wikileaks and Anonymous wish were the case, because it would elevate the status of their hacks to "trade craft" when in fact they are legal kiddies. The whole of Anonymous and Wikileaks probably cannot spare one fully qualified attorney between them. This isn't diligence, this is spam.

  23. Bah by M0j0_j0j0 · · Score: 1

    Read the cables, this guys , they use wikipedia as an intel source...... they seem to just have a bunch of theories , not access to the real situation, they are more likely acting as a PR firm.

  24. Low even for slashdot by Alimony+Pakhdan · · Score: 1

    Vice as a source? Really?

  25. People Should Read these emails before commenting by NicBenjamin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Because this article is silly.

    Let's leave aside the fact that the article's thesis is self-contradictory (either government is spying too much, or not enough), the simple fact is that the emails linked to have nothing to do with any government. They're work Stratfor did for Union Carbide and Dow Chemical. We know this because if you go to the link the to: addresses do not end in .gov. They are to unioncarbide.com, dow.com, tomm_sprick@yahoo.com, stratfor.com, and some Canadian website.

    Stratfor does intelligence for private companies and the government. This means that, while some of their work may have something to do with public policy, most of it doesn't. In this case it's pretty clear what happened:

    The CEO of Dow (which owns Union-Carbide), noticed the Yes-Men and said "somebody should keep an eye on them." His buddy/trusted subordinate said "What's the budget? I think I know a company?" And since then Stratfor has been raking in the dough for sitting on their asses browsing the website.

    There's no governmental violation of the Yes Men's privacy rights because the government isn't involved. There's no waste of public funds because no public funds are being spent.

    This kind of confusion is probably actually what WikiLeaks was looking for. They are too lazy to find actual government waste (and if it was easy to do so the pols in DC would have done it already, and then had a Press Conference crowing about it), so they find an organization that other lazy people will assume is part of the government, and release documents proving it's kind of silly. *poof* millions of people too lazy to click the link will assume Wikileaks has helped them ferret out government corruption.

  26. Re:WMD fiasco was not due to lack of intelligence. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Aw, that's lovely. And those WMD - where are they now? Right, they didn't exist...

  27. Not An Article. It's Some Idiot's Blog Posting by RobotRunAmok · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Cmdr Taco, where are you...?

    You may have regarded Slashdot as your personal sandbox from time to time, but at least you had the grace and wisdom not to piss in it everyday.

  28. Re:WMD fiasco was not due to lack of intelligence. by daveschroeder · · Score: 1

    Wow, great job reading and interpreting my comment!

    (Not.)

  29. This could be very dangerous by superwiz · · Score: 1

    Since anonymous is, at least according to the common understanding, anonymous, it may have US members. If US citizens collaborate with anyone in targeting US intelligence community, they would be guilty of bona fide treason.

    This opens the room for targeting Wikileaks in the way that the Manning leak did not. The Manning leak made Bradley Manning a traitor but allowed Wikileaks to remain journalists. If Wikileaks participates in targeting of the US intelligence, then they won't be receiving information after the fact.

    They'll be assisting US citizens in committing treason. This makes them possibly chargeable as collaborators with traitors and possibly simply targetable as enemies of the US. Retaliating against attacks on military installations is generally considered a legitimate use of military forces. At that point Assange can be simply abducted out of any location in the world or even killed on the spot without violation of any US laws.

    I do hope Wikileaks doesn't do anything this dumb. It would undermine the status of all journalists as illegitimate targets for the US armed forces. This line between targeted-for-publishing-leaks and targeted-for-attacking-armed-forces would cease to exist in 1 person and it would be of questionable legality after that.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    1. Re:This could be very dangerous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think other countries might have a small problem with US forces simply coming in to abduct or kill Assange, even if it isn't against US law. Stupid thing to start a war against one of your allies for.

  30. Re:WMD fiasco was not due to lack of intelligence. by GSloop · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Further, the US and its partners discovered 700,000 tons of non-WMD UN-banned weapons when we invaded. Iraq was in violation of not one, not two, but THREE binding and in-force UN Security council resolutions, any one of which allowed for the use of force with no further justification.

    Citation needed.

  31. http://bit.ly/ys2KV3 by owenferguson · · Score: 0

    #antisec Recruits Wikileaks and Anonymous to the Fight Against US Intelligence Community. FTFY.

  32. God help these people... by Karmashock · · Score: 4, Insightful

    if they piss off the CIA and NSA... I'm not saying their prized pet poodles will be snatched by black ops and wisked away to secret dungeons to be water boarded... but at a certain point they have so many resources and legal loopholes at their disposal that screwing with them is not a survival trait.

    I think a lot of hackers stay out of jail because no cares enough to track them down and not so much because they're eLiTe or whatever. What this sort of provocative actions do is put a taskforce that will be paid 7 days a week to hunt them. And that means any stupid illegal thing they've doubtless done and gotten away with... might come back to bit them in the ass... and then eat them alive.

    If they hadn't actually broken any laws it might not be a huge issue for them. But I'm pretty sure they've broken lots including some identity theft and credit card fraud. You can go away for years for that. So if they want you... they can throw you in prison somewhere. All they have to do is find you.

    If I were these guys... I'd be doing everything in my power to vanish and disassociate with the larger group.

    Something we learned from the war on terror is that the CIA likes to infiltrate groups by posing as one of them. They do that either by taking out someone and then assuming their identity or simply entering the organization at a lower level.

    A fair number of the people in anonymous at this point might actually be government operatives posing as allied hackers.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    1. Re:God help these people... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It must suck to be as paranoid and cowardly as you are.

      Also, you are giving the government FAR more credit than it deserves.

      The bad guys don't always win, even if your gutless ignorant mindset tells you that
      is how the world is.

    2. Re:God help these people... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course there's risk involved when fighting a great evil, and certainly it's much safer to side with the most powerful side. But if all men did that we'd all be slaves now.
      "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".

    3. Re:God help these people... by strangluv2 · · Score: 1

      ...A fair number of the people in anonymous at this point might actually be government operatives posing as allied hackers...

      It is engineering strategy to move those less capable into marketing and sales. i.e. (media gadfly's, to NSA, CIA, and political office).
      In the trenches we profit, with the increased security and research contracts, and job security that comes our way by this method.

    4. Re:God help these people... by Karmashock · · Score: 3, Insightful

      rephrase please...

      And in regards to the other posts talking about anon fighting the good fight... Not so much. They're mostly masturbating on the internet while committing some amateur credit card fraud.

      I don't think we've seen a single hack out of them that was particularly impressive. Most of it was denial of service stuff or hacking poorly secured websites.

      And what have they accomplished? All they're doing is justifying government spending on computer security. They're also justifying increased classification of documents.

      Over the past 20 years the government was DE-classifying lots of things that past generations would NEVER declassify. Because of wikileaks in particular things are being RE-classified and there is a decrease in what is being DE-classified.

      If the goal is making government more open, that is a complete failure.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    5. Re:God help these people... by Tom · · Score: 1

      If I were these guys... I'd be doing everything in my power to vanish and disassociate with the larger group.

      Changing your behaviour is one of the red flags that law enforcement and TLAs are looking for when they try to identify who is involved. Just saying...

      A fair number of the people in anonymous at this point might actually be government operatives posing as allied hackers.

      First, I'm not so sure the CIA would be involved at this point. Acting within the US is something that has always caused a shitstorm when it was revealed, so they might stay clear of that. FBI, DHS, etc. are probably what you are looking for.

      Two, both you and they are probably making the mistake of treating Anonymous as an organisation. But it isn't. It's total anarchy. There is no organisational structure. I could make and post an Anonymous video on YouTube and nobody would know whether it's "official" or not - and in fact that terminology and way of thinking isn't adequate at all.

      Infiltrating Anonymous is like infiltrating /. - and even /. has more of a structure. Sure you can register and account and start posting. You can probably track relations (friend/foe), you can run statistics over the comments and moderation and probably figure out a couple "prominent" users, and with manual work identify "opinion leaders".
      But you can't destroy the community by making them disappear. Because we'd hardly notice. Because we don't think of the /. community in these terms. The opinion leaders are what they are because they can express themselves well and/or voice what many others think anyways. If they go away, someone else will take their place - most likely without even noticing his "promotion".

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    6. Re:God help these people... by benjamindees · · Score: 1

      Changing your behaviour is one of the red flags

      True. But this has more to do with their particular hormonal imbalances than with any connection to reality.

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
    7. Re:God help these people... by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      As to behavior patterns being a give away... In this case, I don't see how that's a relevant point.

      The idea is to disassociate BEFORE you're under investigation. Just tell everyone involved you need to take care of your sick mother and vanish. You can stay active but not with that group.

      Smaller cells. You don't want to be known to more then three to five people. And ideally none of them should be able to compromise you. Don't get publicity. Don't get on the radar screen. Keep blended.

      If you join some big loud group that's on the page of the new york times and likes to have giant meetings in consistent locations on the internet... then you've got a arrest me sign tapped to the back of your head.

      As to the CIA operating in this incident... it's an international group so it could be arguing they're not operating within the US. In any case, my understanding is that the NSA would actually be the ones tracking them down. They're the intelligence branch that deals with computers, radio signals, encryption, etc. The CIA traditionally was more the up close and personal branch that would offer you cyanide breath mints. That said, who knows. The fact that the CIA is running the drone operations in Afghanistan is totally weird and not expected. One would think that would go through the airforce or army. Who knew.

      As to infiltration... Oh my god... you need to read more spy novels.

      OKAY... so if you're just starting out infiltration you might want to look to flip someone. You find someone that you've got dead to rights and you say "look, you can spend years in some horrible prison terrified you're going to get shanked in the night... OOOOR you can be a mole for us in one of these groups. Take it or leave it."

      Then there are patriots... people that are part of these communities but don't like the direction they're going in and will betray that group simply because they don't like them. This can also be for revenge if they felt slighted. Either way, the intelligence service gets a mole in their organization.

      Then there are traitors that will sell their friends out for money. Same as above only you need to pay them.

      Net result, you're going to get a few sources inside the organization that are passing information to intelligence.

      Then you have trained agents that go into these groups to collect information from the start. This is difficult but there are various ways to do it. If you have moles already operating in their system then they can train your agents to operate the same way.

      Point being... if the agency wants in... they're getting in. The only way to keep them out is to remain small and obscure. That will make it hard for them to insert anyone into your group because there are so few members and if you're small they might not even know you exist.

      That is your best defense as a hacker. You're a computer cat burglar. the idea is to remain invisible.

      What anonymous are doing is akin to a group of cat burglars running around town and then bragging about all the homes they broke into... and how no one can stop them.

      It doesn't get any dumber.

      If anon weren't stupid, they'd take down their website, stop talking to the press, and just vanish. Then MAYBE they could start over with a smaller tight nit crew. And never talk to the press ever again. No public releases. No "this is from X"... none of that.

      If you want to release something to the press, then do it. You can do that anonymously without calling yourself anonymous like some cheesy comic book villain.

      If you do that repeatedly the intelligence agencies will be annoyed but they'll assume every leak came from a different source and not assume they're a singular entity. They'll also have no way of knowing who or where it came from. They'll probably suspect leaks in their own organization. Telling people it's a hacking group tells the intelligence people that the flaw is in their computer system. Why tell them that if your objective is to steal information from them?

      Think

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    8. Re:God help these people... by Tom · · Score: 1

      I maintain my point. You think of Anonymous as an organisation. It isn't. Sure, some of these strategies will work to some degree. But not to the same degree and not with the same result that they would in an actual organisation.

      Example:

      If you do that repeatedly the intelligence agencies will be annoyed but they'll assume every leak came from a different source and not assume they're a singular entity. They'll also have no way of knowing who or where it came from. They'll probably suspect leaks in their own organization. Telling people it's a hacking group tells the intelligence people that the flaw is in their computer system. Why tell them that if your objective is to steal information from them?

      What tells you that the various Anonymous actions are done by the same people, or even by people who have the slightest connection? Anyone can hack a computer, release what he found, and put the Anonymous logo on it all.

      What tells you that the hack was an IT security issue at all? Because someone said so? Could be misdirection. I know I in their place would make up a plausible and entirely false story.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    9. Re:God help these people... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know why you bother replying, the person you're replying to is not real.

    10. Re:God help these people... by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

      The goal of showing that that concept of transparency with the US government is, and always was, an illusion, has been proven;
      but they'll keep proving it, again and again, until you all pull your heads out.

    11. Re:God help these people... by Tom · · Score: 1

      Because this is a public discussion board, and other people - like you - come across the answers as well.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  33. Did you miss the Iraq war? by dbIII · · Score: 1

    A lot of the "intelligence" justifying the war came from private sources, most notably a PR firm. Also there has been bullshit of this type dating back to Ford with a private "intelligence" group being used to deliver the "correct" answers when the CIA inconveniently stuck to facts. I'm sure there was plenty previously but some of those in the scam for Ford are still in positions where people mistakenly respect them (eg. Rumsfeld).

  34. OMG by dbIII · · Score: 1

    The "government is so powerful and omniscient that it only pretends to fail to lull us to sleep" view rises again. Meanwhile back in reality there was almost nobody that could even understand the languages that the intelligence would have been written in because they were laid off and funding moved elsewhere.
    Sorry kid, they have been fools for a long time and running the CIA has been little more than a sinecure since Ford. DHS was formed because the CIA could not do it's job but a playboy Prince didn't have the guts to criticise the man running it, so started another CIA instead.

    1. Re:OMG by PPH · · Score: 1

      The "government is so powerful and omniscient that it only pretends to fail to lull us to sleep" view rises again.

      No. Its the "government is made up of lots of little, self interested groups that it seems to fail" view.

      There's a principle called institutional intelligence that allows organizations to run efficiently if each member performs their assigned functions per the planned process. The trouble is; that breaks down, and at times rather spectacularly, if some of the members discover that they can game the system to their advantage. And its not always people in the middle ranks with the agendas. IIRC, the intelligence community called the risk of an al Qaida attack against the USA back in 2001 correctly. And they briefed the administration about it. But Cheney & Co. weren't paying attention to their briefing reports. And then there's the debunked reports of Iraq trying to buy yellowcake from Niger. The CIA got it right, but the administration wanted to use the (false) evidence as a part of pretext to invade Iraq. And to top it off, the false reports may have been manufactured to make Cheney look like a fool.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:OMG by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Well OK, but one interesting angle with the Niger fraud was that Saddam already had a lot of yellowcake in Iraq but no people or equipment to do much with it and the UN had known about that for years. The Niger fraud was another little bit of the petty "freedom fries" bullshit to attempt to make the French look bad, and once again the mine had been closed for years so wasn't sending yellowcake anyware. The French can do that without any help from some sort of petty dummy spit in the White House. The allegations about yellowcake did not stand up to any sort of scrutiny so appear to be designed either to be used with a very compliant press or were just a sign of incompetance.

  35. Wikileaks' status by paleoflatus · · Score: 1

    Infamous??? I'd say the US intelligence services were infamous.

    --
    paleoflatus
  36. Stratfor reputation was already dim by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I knew about Stratfor, but hadn't heard much about them recently until the leak. This article in the Atlantic describes the situation pretty well, you are paying for what used to be called newspaper coverage:

    The Atlantic: Stratfor is a joke and so it Wikileaks for taking it seriously

    Here's another:
    ForeignPolicy.com: Wake me when Wikileaks publishes the Illuminati emails

    Remember Wikileaks always over promotes everything they release....

  37. The article has to be a joke. by elucido · · Score: 1

    Anonymous isn't a unified group. There is no way that Anonymous could as a group be unified enough to declare war on an intelligence community of any nation let alone the most powerful intelligence community on the planet.

    It's simple, somebody within Anonymous and within Wikileaks is the target of the US intelligence community and they hold a personal vendetta or grudge. So now they want to try and hide behind Anonymous or whatever. The fact is either you hate all intelligence communities or you work for one. If you just choose to hate the US intelligence community but have nothing to say about any of the others that reveals a lot about you.

  38. Anonymous and Wikileaks are officially irrelevant. by elucido · · Score: 0

    Anyone associated with them is going to now be persecuted if the rumors are true.

    Let's look at the facts, this Wikileaks and Anonymous targeting the DOJ, FBI, Police and now the intelligence community of the richest and most powerful nation should show any wise person one thing. They are committing seppuku, ritual suicide by cop.

    How dumb is it to pick a fight with the most powerful group of people on planet earth? It's just dumb right? So unless they are backed by some foreign intelligence agencies these people might not even survive. What I see happening here is that somebody within these groups is hiding behind the name Anonymous and has a personal grudge against the US government. Bradley Manning isn't the entire intelligence community, it's an issue but it's kind of like declaring war on the US government over what happened in WACO, it's fringe lunatic type thinking.

  39. Authorized? They do what they want. by elucido · · Score: 1

    Haven't you figured it out? It doesn't have to be authorized for it to happen.
    If they can get away with it without getting caught that is what authorizes it.

    They'll stop at nothing, they'll operate in secret, and shit happens.

    1. Re:Authorized? They do what they want. by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Haven't you figured it out? It doesn't have to be authorized for it to happen. If they can get away with it without getting caught that is what authorizes it.

      They'll stop at nothing, they'll operate in secret, and shit happens.

      Yes, exactly, thank you. This is what makes the boy scout AC above sound so naive.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
  40. The rule of the gun trumps the law. by elucido · · Score: 1

    Technology trumps the law and the NSA, CIA and FBI have it.

    They also have the ability to keep secrets so they don't have to care about the law. They simply do it in secret and then deny that they had anything to do with any of it.

  41. Pinkerton National Detectives. by elucido · · Score: 1

    It's been going on since before World War 1. It's been going on since the Pinkerton National Detective Agency.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkerton_National_Detective_Agency

  42. Wikileaks and Anonymous Join Forces by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

    to attack the U.S. with their new arsenal.. consisting of some Pentium 4's and a Android phone

  43. Investigate Stratfor by kbg · · Score: 1

    Since the Justice Department was investigating Wikileaks for gettings their hands on classified government documents, should they then not investigate Stratfor also? And shouldn't they also order Twitter to release all data for all Stratfor employees?

  44. Re:WMD fiasco was not due to lack of intelligence. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why was the WMD case made at all, if Iraq was in violation of three UNSC resolutions which would have permitted force? It also seems unlikely to me that there would be a plausible case for Saddam having WMD whilst no intelligence on the other weapons you describe.

    My understanding of the situation was that there was a lot of reliance on individual sources, which has to be questionable in a scenario such as this. I think the maxim you quoted 'a strong charge requires strong evidence' should have applied then, not just now.

    I am interested in your answer by the way, this isn't just rhetoric.

  45. Rethinking security to be intrinsic & mutual by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    I think you are right overall. Anyone pretty much has to assume any organization is compromised by informants. A related post by me:
    http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/ae28e8971f8f9669?hl=en
    "My advice to people here is to build movements in such a way that the CIA can be proud of them :-) as well as so Smari and Bryan and others here can be proud of them too. :-) And, given the CIA is hiring machinists, build a movement where, in a good way, you assume everyone in it is working for the CIA, :-) but where you still get important stuff done in moving the world towards a post-scarcity open future. Just like people should assume Google is a division of the NSA and/or CIA. :-) An impossible task? Well, consider it more like a creative challenge. :-) "

    Also, one has to accept that there are legitimate needs sometimes for "security" thinking. The big challenge is the irony of the current system, and theft or vandalism does little to really address the root causes of dysfunctions in our security apparatus. To address the root causes, we need a new vision of security. Here are a couple of essays by me towards trying to create a new vision of mutual/intrinsic security.

    "On dealing with social hurricanes (like the US CIA) "
    http://www.pdfernhout.net/on-dealing-with-social-hurricanes.html
    "This approximately 60 page document is a ramble about ways to ensure the CIA (as well as other big organizations) remains (or becomes) accountable to human needs and the needs of healthy, prosperous, joyful, secure, educated communities. The primarily suggestion is to encourage a paradigm shift away from scarcity thinking & competition thinking towards abundance thinking & cooperation thinking within the CIA and other organizations. I suggest that shift could be encouraged in part by providing publicly accessible free "intelligence" tools and other publicly accessible free information that all people (including in the CIA and elsewhere) can, if they want, use to better connect the dots about global issues and see those issues from multiple perspectives, to provide a better context for providing broad policy advice. It links that effort to bigger efforts to transform our global society into a place that works well for (almost) everyone that millions of people are engaged in. A central Haudenosaunee story-related theme is the transformation of Tadodaho through the efforts of the Peacemaker from someone who was evil and hurtful to someone who was good and helpful. Another theme is exploring the meaning, if true, of a allegation by Wayne Madsen about President Obama's deeper connection to the CIA than was otherwise known. "

    "Recognizing irony is key to transcending militarism"
    http://www.pdfernhout.net/recognizing-irony-is-a-key-to-transcending-militarism.html
    "Likewise, even United States three-letter agencies like the NSA and the CIA, as well as their foreign counterparts, are becoming ironic institutions in many ways. Despite probably having more computing power per square foot than any other place in the world, they seem not to have thought much about the implications of all that computer power and organized information to transform the world into a place of abundance for all. Cheap computing makes possible just about cheap everything else, as does the ability to make better designs through shared computing. ... There is a fundamental mismatch between 21st century reality and 20th century security thinking. Those "security" agencies are using those tools of abundance, cooperation, and sharing mainly from a mindset of scarcity, competition, and secrecy. Given the power of 21st century technology as an amplifier (in

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  46. Death penalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Damn hackers, I hope they give them a death penalty. (With great reason, if they're set free again, I think there's an immense probability of the person getting into hacking again)

  47. Irony? by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    Your view of the law, you must obey you superiors regardless, is the law of the Nazis, is the law of Stalin and Mao, it is not the law of any democracy and publicly stipulated at the Nuremberg trials http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials [wikipedia.org].

    One of the US prosecutors at Nuremberg was the father of Chris Dodd - now the front man of an organization that doesn't seem to care much about democracy nor the Rule of Law.

  48. Re:People Should Read these emails before commenti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So Dow isn't providing anything upwards to the government? Are you sure about that?

    Just because Stratfor wasn't directly hired by Obama himself doesn't mean they aren't working for the government.

  49. Re:Rethinking security to be intrinsic & mutua by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    there is a distinction between responsible whistle blowing and prankster whistle blowing... wikileaks doesn't seem to grasp the distinction.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  50. "watchdog organization Wikileaks...?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    PUL-leeeeze! That is blatant crap.

  51. What this really exposes... by 3seas · · Score: 1

    ... is not the content of the emails of Statfor but the mindset of the Intelligence Industry. It shows there is a degree of self supported dependency. This is no different from Addicts, such as Alcoholics and over eaters, drug addicts and .. well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_twelve-step_groups all of which are there to help in various ways such as a buddy system. Of course we all know that such addictions can lead to criminal activity.

    So perhaps we need to add another help group to the list, so to include one for the intelligence industry addicted.

    How about we simply name it Anonymous?

  52. Root DNS servers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe Wikileaks and/or Anonymous should/would establish their own root DNS servers. I and many organizations and communications firms and ISPs alike would start doing zone transfers from them. That would hinder the government/corporate power grab of domain seizures, and would fragment the Internet which overall could be a good thing.

  53. Re:Anonymous and Wikileaks are officially irreleva by ClioCJS · · Score: 1
    Eh, your whole post seems to be appeal towards fear of the strong. I'm glad the many people who have fought evil powers that be have not learned helplessness the way you have. Last I checked, picking a fight with the biggest [student|inmate] at [school|jail] is a great way to prove yourself and get respect and status. Now I have a distant acquaintance who was raided by the FBI a year ago. I didn't know this until I realized I hadn't seen him for 2 yrs and asked him if he was still friends. He told me he had been scared to basically go to parties and associate with people because he didn't want to get THEM in trouble. Why did the FBI raid him? Becuase he'd been using the same username as someone in anonymous. He'd been using this name for well over a decade -- way way before anonymous existed.

    So we're raiding people because they picked the wrong username, and somehow our vast powerful intelligence community can't tell the difference or find the real people. I'm sure anonymous is NOT quaking in their boots right now.

    --
    -Clio
    Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
    Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
  54. Whoa - Anonymous AND Wikileaks? by toddmbloom · · Score: 0

    Is there enough room in their parents basement for all of them?

    Maybe, if we're lucky, they'll get caught and we can get rid of two annoying groups with one stone.

  55. Re:Two different things by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

    You are incredibly confused. If anyone at the Nuremberg trials had disobeyed orders, they would have been punished internally. That's what is happening to Manning, because he broke the rules of military command. Either he gets punished for not following orders (his current situation) or punished for following orders (war crimes in your example). Two different things.

    No one in any seat of power is going to forgive someone in their command if they just claim "Following orders doesn't make it right, so I'm not doing it." There is a procedure for objecting in the US military, Manning didn't follow it, he will be punished.

    Whether he did the right thing, morally, is a completely different question, and he will be judged by history accordingly.

  56. Can't just use the IRS by Shotgun · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately, the intelligence community can't just use the IRS to harass and bully their victims like the Democrats do.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/another-conservative-group-says-its-being-bullied-by-the-irs-clear-obvious-overreach/

    --
    Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
    Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  57. Not a game. by Caerdwyn · · Score: 1

    One thing the intelligence community has that Wikileaks and the Anonymous script-kiddies will never have is the ability to evacuate the craniums of people who become too much of a threat... and get away with it because it's part of their mission. I really think it's going to take a few Anonymous folk being found dead in a ditch to get the message across: this isn't a fucking game. They're playing with people with guns and prosecutorial immunity who won't hesitate to kill whom they see as a genuine threat, but Anonymous and Wikileaks see it all as one great big joke. One thing that Anonymous has in common with other groups attacking the U.S. is that they are composed of a few smart people surrounding themselves with naive, expendable clueless fools (it's not the leaders of jihadist groups who blow themselves up; it's young, stupid, naive idealists with no clue about how the world actually works).. It's the expendable fools who will (at first) be the ones looking down the barrel of a .45, and the line to join the expendable fools goes around the block.

    Whether the pending violent reaction to Anonymous etc. is as it should be is another matter, and is subject to debate. The fact that Anonymous/Wikileaks are messing with people who kill is not subject to debate; it's fact. You can either live (and die) in denial, or realize that this is literally deadly serious business.

    --
    Everybody gets what the majority deserves.
  58. "Infamous"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Try "famous and welcome"

  59. Re:Two different things by riondluz · · Score: 1

    "There is a procedure for objecting in the US military"
    Which rarely, if ever, results in the chain of command doing the right thing AOT CYA.

    Being relieved of command used to be commonplace and not held as a mark against one's service. These days, no one is ever relieved unless their incompetence is monumental and pubically exposed.

    When loyality trumps ability ring-knockers usually end up sending some poor hump to an early grave, if not a wet-spot in some landfill.

    We have a crisis of competence in both government and the military; where silence is currency, failure too often rewarded and doing the right thing mete with severe punishment.

    Despite perhaps the best of intention, secrecy and letting the ends justify the means does nothing to mitigate the rot at the top.

    The fact that Manning opted to not follow procedure and knowingly suffer the consequences raises his stature in my eyes as much as John Paul Vann, Hugh Thompson Jr, or anyone who breaks rank to expose the lie for what it is and do something about it. Specially when knowing that "following procedure" will result in just another in a long line of cover-ups.

    --
    resist propaganda
  60. Mr who? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "delivered nothing but a few PowerPoint slides"

    That is not accurate. Sure TrailBlazer had A LOT of contractor issues, such as cost control, overcharging, and typical contractor abuse between BOTH gov't branch heads and execs from private industry. Heck guess where a lot of those TB gov't heads retired to...private industry!

    One needs to realize:

    a. Thin thread was a excellent proof of concept... you needed to completely change the culture of the community overnight to implement it at scale. It's the typical "new paradigm on a moving train" scenario. Before 9/11, the agency was getting it's budgets slashed and was moving towards COTS. Post 9/11, it panic on solutions and went with COTS... on steroids.

    b. Pre-9/11, the agency was panicking as Drake mentioned, BUT there was a lot of competition in-house to develop the right GOTS solution (TT was one of them in some ways). Since it's gov't we're talking about, the politicians thought we were moving to slow and getting expensive since the agency was reducing workforce in the 90's, hence COTS, out-sourcing, and contracting was ideal--heck it worked for DIA, DoD, etc...

    c. Since (b) was occurring, the TT team was backstabbed both politically and timely--the contractors took over for instance. I say backstabbed cause basically the contractors took ownership of the problem and wanted their COTS in place... and huge service contracts. That's why we all keep hearing about TT --how about all those other R&D GOTS solutions and other black-projects? Remember the agency had smoke-stack projects, need to know ruled. It wasn't just TT that was successful... at the same mission! Sounds like someone had his lunch stolen.

    d. And PPT slides? Sorry but there's a lot of Trailblazer apps being used in the agency, most just got refactored. Trailblazer just didn't promise the holy grail all the leaders were touting, but then again, politics and contractor greed can be blamed for that. Heck even the TT architects wouldn't imagine the amount of data being generated today.

    And in the end, we can talk about how TT could have been so great but, we still got him without it.