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Ann Arbor Schools Want $45M For Tech, Partly For Computers To Run Google Docs

An anonymous reader writes "The Ann Arbor Public Schools defended their request for a $45 million bond for new computers by claiming that Apple eMacs aren't good enough for their Advanced Journalism class. A teacher told reporters that new PCs are needed to run WordPress, Google Docs, and Adobe InDesign CS6. WordPress and Google Docs are server-based applications that can be accessed with nearly any web browser. InDesign CS6 has not been released yet and its system requirements are unknown. As a web developer, I am impressed by the online newspaper published by the journalism class, but I question the need for new hardware. The district previously claimed that the old computers couldn't run its standardized testing software, although they far surpass the vendor's specifications. Does modern education really require cutting-edge computers, or are schools screaming 'think of the children' to win over tech-illiterate voters?" Whatever the answer to that question, exaggerated system requirements aren't the only driving force; the $45 million bond sought would not be dedicated only to replacing journalism program computers, note; it would also be used to fund other infrastructure upgrades, including some lower-tech updates, like new sound amplifiers in the district's classrooms. Ann Arbor schools' web site says that the district has (as of 2010, at least) 16,440 students. What are tech outlays like in the public schools where you live?

248 comments

  1. Seems a little inflated... by gr3yh47 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    $2700 and change per student seems a little high for a tech budget...

    1. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When you're spending other people's money, and taking a cut for yourself ("adminstration"), the object is to waste more, not less.

    2. Re:Seems a little inflated... by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 3, Funny

      There are teachers (like any industry) that are notorious for thinking they know more than the techs that have dedicated their lives and education to it.

      That's human nature. Think Dilbert's boss.

    3. Re:Seems a little inflated... by aussiedood · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not if they're planning to buy Apple products ;)

    4. Re:Seems a little inflated... by tripleevenfall · · Score: 5, Funny

      IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN!

    5. Re:Seems a little inflated... by jedidiah · · Score: 0

      These are civil servants. They have strong incentives to be wasteful. I don't think the relative costs of Macs is really relevant here. They would find a way to burn through that money regardless of what platform they were deploying.

      Just about anyone here could do better with less even with Apple kit.

      I can't help thinking about all of those perfectly usable monitors that will go into the trash heap just because they are built into the machine.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    6. Re:Seems a little inflated... by geekoid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      " They have strong incentives to be wasteful."
      STFU. I word with civil servants, and they are far, FAR more responsible with money then people in the private sector.

      "Just about anyone here could do better with less even with Apple kit."
      No. Just about everyone here thinks that, but have never done a wide scale implementation of a reliable service and equipment.
      The parent to this thread makes the mistake of thinking its only machines. Infrastructure costs a lot of money.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    7. Re:Seems a little inflated... by citizenr · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There are teachers (like any industry) that are notorious for thinking they know more than the techs that have dedicated their lives and education to it.

      That's human nature. Think Dilbert's boss.

      exxample
      http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/homework-class-test-school-of-fail-stop-being-all-defiant-and-right-about-things-dammit.jpg

      --
      Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
    8. Re:Seems a little inflated... by datavirtue · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You must have stepped through the stargate because in my world public servants don't give a rat's ass about saving money unless we are talking about THEIR budget. Many times the wasteful spending happens outside the realm of a departmental budget. Special projects are always justified and then the money is spent.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    9. Re:Seems a little inflated... by camperslo · · Score: 1

      $2700 and change per student seems a little high for a tech budget...

      I don't see any reason why they couldn't be doing this with free recycled computers. It's not that uncommon for some systems only a couple of years old to get dumped with nothing more than malware causing trouble. Recycle and put OSS to work. Get students involved, and when going through computers to use, take some that are not quite up to spec and set them up to handy out to needy students or local poor people. Surely there are also some talented parents willing to volunteer time and help. They can do more than sell cupcakes and cookies to help schools. And upgraded amplifiers? Get a local college and local high school electronics classes to partner in designing and assembling some. If they have any faith at all in the future of the students they're supposedly teach, they should help them to help themselves. Teach students that something can still be made in America. Have multiple groups of them come up with competing designs, then merge the best ideas for the final product. And what of the unemployed in the region? Surely some of them have skills that could be used to help. Raw components are dirt cheap. Give students a thirt for learning and building things. From a pile of old PC power supplies, VCRs, and boards out of old c.r.t. monitors students could make their own amplifiers and all sorts of projects to have fun with at home and in optional shop-type classes or off-hours activity. Give them something fun to do, and there'll likely be less gang and drug activity too. Think of how much money that could save.
      I smell contractor pork. And electronics imported from elsewhere. Government must become more efficient. $2700 per student is obscene. They could give every student a new MacBook, run servers, and give them all free fiber optic at home for less than that. Which of course is not necessary to a good education. Teach students by good example, how to manage spending. It sounds like some bureaucrats need to go back to school and learn a few things, or end up as part of the lunch program. Every body is good for something.

    10. Re:Seems a little inflated... by g0bshiTe · · Score: 0

      So they intend to revamp their entire infrastructure computer wise? I just read the article and it's so full of crap, they got new computers in 2004, are you telling me that those are no good now and they need to replace 8100+ of 8200+ systems, on top of that they want to get students iPads? Why? "Some of the money will go to wireless infrastructure upgrades", no doubt to support the iPads. "Other funds will go to upgrade infrastructure to support higher speeds", do they really need this for a school? When I see this it reads like they need faster internet speed and nothing more, anything on the network itself should be plenty fast. I can see reworking the heating/cooling of the servers as that will extend their life and usefulness but still they way they spend I imagine they will just replace them. These people are not looking to help the children. This is one district. 45 million doesn't seem exorbitant to you?

      --
      I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
    11. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not only that, they are proposing to borrow money to purchase rapidly depreciating assets. The Ann Arbor tax payers will be paying for these computers long after they are in a landfill somewhere. Even if the computers were needed (which they probably aren't), this should be part of the schools' regular budget, and if they can't afford them, then teach the kids the old fashioned way - pencils, paper, and instruction by teachers. What a concept.

    12. Re:Seems a little inflated... by donny77 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm sorry, donated equipment only reduces acquisition cost. What about SUPPORT costs? It is much cheaper to support 1000 identical machines as you can use imaging, stock minimal replacement parts and so forth. Having 1000 machines with 50 different configs is going to increase cost and up-time. Typically these institutions are running somewhere around 1 technician per 500-700 machines while the "private" sector is supposedly around 1 technician per 150-250 machines. But, it's not YOUR problem right? Make them use donated stuff!

    13. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I work in Education. As unfortunate as that example is, things like this are not that uncommon. I get reminded at least weekly, sometimes daily, how STUPID (yes, I'll use that word) our educators really are, especially when it comes to Technology. However they have a pieces of paper that tells them they are "smart and smarter than everyone else" via their degree and teaching credential.

      And 45 Million for technology is not that steep for a school district. Infrastructure (LAN, WAN, Servers, Cabling etc). When people complain about 45 million being too expensive, they haven't done larger projects like upgrading infrastructure. Infrastructure costs money, and needs to be replaced about every ten years for networking equipment. While I'm sure there is what some people call "waste" in the 45 million, it probably isn't quite as bad as many think.

      And if they are doing a 45 Million dollar bond, I'd make damn sure it went primarily for infrastructure and not computers or peripheral equipment. In a school system that size, 45 Million should just about cover top down infrastructure coverage.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    14. Re:Seems a little inflated... by bwohlgemuth · · Score: 1

      Very few districts have problems procuring IT parts. Remember the Universal Service Fund? That was specifically designed to give money to schools to build this sort of infrastructure. I am sure every district got a piece of the pie. Yes, it was supposed to originally go to rural/impoverished schools...but that was changed mid-session and then everyone climbed onboard to spend those hard earned dollars on....microwave links for schools....video conferencing gear.....Cisco 7600 routers....modem dial pools....you name it.

      --
      Flamebait .sig for sale, low mileage, one owner only.
      Serious inquiries only.
    15. Re:Seems a little inflated... by JBMcB · · Score: 5, Interesting

      " They have strong incentives to be wasteful."
      STFU. I word with civil servants, and they are far, FAR more responsible with money then people in the private sector.

      LOL really? Travel about 50 miles due east to the wonderful world of the Detroit Public school system. Just Google them to see how insanely wasteful that district is. They built a brand new campus for one of it's better high schools, and replaced *everything* The old building was left full of lab equipment and textbooks - to rot. Some of it was new. They had an entire warehouse full of brand new office supplies and textbooks that was left to rot as well. When an EFM was brought in a couple of years ago, he found rampant fraud and mismanagement throughout the entire system - to the point where the district had no idea how much it owed to suppliers.

      Now travel forty miles north to Pontiac, MI. A recent review of their school system's finances revealed $135,000,000 in unaccounted transactions over a four year span in the 2000s. That's $135 million in money spent - and they have *no idea* where it went. The average number of irregularities in an audit of that size is maybe a couple dozen. There were over 28,000. There were $200,000 in payroll irregularities, which should *never* happen. The city had the report completed two years ago, and they kept it under wraps and did nothing about it in that time span.

      I could go on and on. The pressure to limit waste in private enterprise is clear - less waste equals more profit. There is no profit motive in the public sector. The reverse is true - the more you spend the more budget you get. If you are a politician you can legally buy votes by cranking up pension benefits that you won't have to worry about funding. It's a broken system.

      --
      My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    16. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      $2700 and change per student seems a little high for a tech budget...

      A referenced earlier article has more details:

      "The 2012 bond plan would be phased-in over the course of 10 years in three separate series, spending $27.27 million in 2012, $10.57 million in 2015 and $8.01 million in 2018."

      So that's an average of something like $270 per student per year, which doesn't sound particularly high to me.

      But then honestly I have no basis for comparison here--how much does a typical school district (or other comparable organization) budget for this kind of thing?

      And as the summary says, this isn't all about instructional technology. Decent network infrastructure probably helps teachers and staff get their jobs done, for example.

    17. Re:Seems a little inflated... by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      " They have strong incentives to be wasteful." STFU. I word with civil servants, and they are far, FAR more responsible with money then people in the private sector.

      "Just about anyone here could do better with less even with Apple kit." No. Just about everyone here thinks that, but have never done a wide scale implementation of a reliable service and equipment. The parent to this thread makes the mistake of thinking its only machines. Infrastructure costs a lot of money.

      What infrastructure needs to be updated? The cabling should be good unless it was installed in some impressively horrible manor, daisy chaining each room together. That just leaves an upgrade to the router (4-6k) and network switches (4-6k) throw in a few new blade servers (1-2k), a new 10 KVA UPS (4-6k), and an upgrade in cooling 2k at most that is 100K once instillation and service agreements are factored in, that leaves $44.9 million to upgrade computers and buy software for them. The truth is the 45 million is not only going for an upgrade in IT but many other unrelated boondoggles, the upgrade in IT is just the best issue they have to pull at the heartstrings of voters.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    18. Re:Seems a little inflated... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Really? No letter head? Adolf Hitlers birthday? smart quotes in 1994? misplaced comma? no 'edge' of the photocopy? Reads like someone trying to write how they think a teacher would write?

      Use your brain.

      This 'letter' fails into peoples preconceived notions and as such gets circulated around as truth; when in fact it is highly likely to be a hoax.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    19. Re:Seems a little inflated... by geekoid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's nice, but I actual work with government finance people, and various other public servants. Every day.
      Which turned out to be a nice surprise when I first started doing government audits, and then later got a government job.

      Of course may where you are the public servants happen to fall into every unproven yet stereotypical and exaggerated characture ever conceived.

      I can't speak for your experience, only for my hundreds of audits in both sectors, and my decades of work experience.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    20. Re:Seems a little inflated... by obsess5 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I worked in software development. I've met teachers who are smart in their fields and in technology. I've never met a teacher who thought they were smarter than everyone else because of their teaching degree. I've met a lot of software folks who weren't too smart or whose knowledge was a mile deep and an inch wide. Teaching is no different than any other profession - you have the same distribution of talent.

    21. Re:Seems a little inflated... by geekoid · · Score: 2

      2004 was 8 years ago. If you are going to fault them, fault them for buying eMacs.

      I used to share your derision if iPads in the school system. After watching them be, quite frankly, spectacularly successful I can get behind them using iPads.
      Add to that Apple text book program, it makes sense.

      ""Some of the money will go to wireless infrastructure upgrades", no doubt to support the iPads."
      I would presume any wireless device could use them.

      " 45 million doesn't seem exorbitant to you?"
      It depends on the district size, in this case about 15,000 students.
      No, but I have done long term infrastructure upgrades projects. remember, this is 45 million over 10 -11 years.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    22. Re:Seems a little inflated... by geekoid · · Score: 3, Informative

      My experience wasn't in MI, so maybe you live in a crap hole of a state. Whatever. I suggest you change it or move.

      And 'Incentive' doesn't mean 'reality'. I did an audit for a large global manufacturing company. The CFO didn't even understand the books. There was one line item for about 10M. No one know what the account was for or who was in charge of it.
      They where afraid to stop it because they didn't know what would happen if it was removed,. or what would happen if it became aware to the public.
      They were more worried about loosing money through a stock hit then they where about what the books actually reflected. Because stocks is where the board and upped management make their money.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    23. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      I can tell you're touchy about this, but you'll have to excuse us... we're all a little baffled.

      It's like someone insisting that lawyers are good people and politicians are inherently truthful.

    24. Re:Seems a little inflated... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "What infrastructure needs to be updated?"
      sigh. You ;probably shouldn't even be in this discussion if you have to ask that.
      Clearly you didn't read the article, or upgraded old archetecture on an enterprise level.

      Cabling: ever here of bandwidth? expanding needs? Paying someone to even check it? Adding new clsases? more ports?

      The you numbers are way off. You know this isn't for a class or a school, right? it's for the entire district. I think 15K people or so.
      So it won't be A router, it will be many, it won't be a few servers, it will be many, it wont be one UPS, it will be many.
      SO you're number are meaningless..no, worse then meaningless: Intentional irreconcilable to mislead...or ignorant. You pick.
      And you leave out support, people cost, maintenance over 10 years.

      If this was a small school, I couldn't imagine why they would need 45M. But this isn't, and I don't think you have the intellectual capacity to grasp the complexity of a whole school district.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    25. Re:Seems a little inflated... by jeffmeden · · Score: 1

      They don't get bonds every year, $2700 per seat (more like $2500, see below) is a pittance when you consider they probably have to account for the entire 4 year (or more) career of secondary students, who really do need decently performing computers if they are going to not only learn how to work with technology, but leverage technology in other areas of learning. And don't forget about the teachers and faculty (unless you think they should have to bring their own computers, too) which probably adds 1,500 or more users to the list. Laptops, advanced labs, network infrastructure, support staff, etc. all add up quick. But no, let's just look at one number and immediately throw away the idea. +5 insightful!!!

    26. Re:Seems a little inflated... by twistedcubic · · Score: 1

      $2700 per student could be for Adobe/Microsoft/Whatever software licenses. The hardware is much cheaper.

    27. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      I'm a Navy veteran. Navy budgets work pretty much like any other government agency budget. You use ever last dime you can scratch up, so that there is NONE left over at the end of the month, the end of the quarter, and the end of the year. I did monthly, quarterly, and annual returns for my ships long enough to know how it works.

      When you have zero dollars and some odd cents to turn back in, you can justify an increase in your next budget. If you turn in dollars, they justify a decrease in your budget. That goes for consumables, equipment, subsistence items, ammunition, paint, everything.

      The budget process changes somewhat from one agency to the next, but not much. If you have it, YOU SPEND IT. If you can spend more, you ASK FOR IT. Even if you don't know how you would spend more, you ASK FOR ANYWAY.

      Public servants are more responsible than people in the private sector? My ass they are. Or, if they are more responsible in any way, then it's in accounting for those government dollars. As a civilian, I can get away with spending a few dollars that I don't account for very precisely. A few. As a sailor, every goddamned penny was accounted for. I may have had to lie a little bit to account for them, but they were accounted for, in a very believable manner.

      And, before you ask - I have never in my life misappropriated money for my own benefit. If/when I used "creative accounting", it was for the benefit of the mission - whether the mission was on behalf of the military, or a civilian employer.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    28. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Guspaz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's what I don't get. You can fault them for buying eMacs then, but they're old unsupported machines today. The article doesn't actually mention 2004, but if we assume they bought them at the start of 2004, you're talking about an 800MHz G4 processor with 128MB of RAM and a 1280x960 CRT.

      Any software that requires an Intel mac (as I'm sure the more recent versions of Adobe's CS products like InDesign would) just won't run, and these things can't run a modern web browser (so Google Docs probably won't work right) since 128MB of RAM just isn't enough for modern web use (remember the OS needs a chunk of that).

      So, yeah, I'd actually say they should have replaced these things long ago. They're close to useless today.

    29. Re:Seems a little inflated... by scot4875 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've worked for a public university and for private businesses. (Roughly a 50/50 split for my adult life). The people are equally wasteful and incompetent in both places. It's just more visible for public institutions.

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    30. Re:Seems a little inflated... by JBMcB · · Score: 1

      I'll see your unsubstantiated anecdote and raise you the Los Angeles Redevelopment Authority, an organization that existed to manipulate land values and funnel money into the coffers of politically connected developers:

      http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2011/01/cra_la_jerry_brown_billion.php

      Now we're talking *billions* of dollars in misappropriated funds in the guise of helping poor and blighted communities. This included a $52 million dollar parking garage for a wealthy real estate mogul's private museum, and several high-end condo projects sandwiched next to freeways. They also eminent-domained and tore down a historic theater started by Al Jolson that was undergoing renovations. It has been wonderfully re-developed into a weed-covered field. Because, you know, that helps poor people.

      I've gone easy and only listed examples of municipal waste. If you really want to get into it I could start in on the department of defense...

      --
      My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    31. Re:Seems a little inflated... by scot4875 · · Score: 1

      rapidly depreciating assets

      Hey, that's not a very nice thing to say about the students of Ann Arbor.

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    32. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd make damn sure it went

      It will go to whichever contractors the teachers union in MI favors, as does all MI education spending.

      Fortunately MI elected grown-ups in 2010 and now, for the first time in 10 years, MI has a balanced budget. Ultimately, if you can get people to fund it (as opposed to borrow it) I've got no problem with it. If the voters in Ann Arbor and the powers that be in MI want to be suckers and pay for it, so be it.

    33. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My mom used to teach in Detroit. Despite being one of the wanted teachers, she was pink slipped every year and maybe called back. To a different school. Every time. I don't think once she worked at the same school twice in a row. She eventually got work in a different District, and got pink slipped there too. The general rule is to keep teachers that have been there the longest. Even though they were often the worst teachers. Seriously. Many didn't care about the students at all, didn't know how to handle them, etc. My mom had years of experience but never got to the point where they'd keep her.

      Also, they heavily promote sports and trade. Not how stuff works, just how to use it. The constantly cut arts, math, actual sciences. They'd teach only what was needed to pass the state tests so they can keep getting money.

      Schools would close and students would have to move to other schools. Many classes were 30+ students. Some were at least 35. Sounds cramped, but they often weren't due to how many just plain didn't show up.

      The rare times I saw students actually engaged, they absorbed everything, as you can expect. But as I said before, they are told to show up and memorize.

      And yeah, everything was horribly mismanaged. She could never get supplies, and when she was able to find them, there were so much it wasn't even funny.

      My mom absolutely loves teaching, but she's currently in school to shift into another field. She really has no other choice. Luckily she's unemployed and thus has time to go to school and finish quicker than normal, she was able to get grants to help pay for her education, and she's still gets unemployment.

      Also, all of this was just with the school systems. Imagine the city government! They are trying so hard to not get a emergency financial manager to come in. I say they should just give in. They've shown they can't fix it. The entire city just needs a big reset. Make it smaller, split other sections off, etc. I have no idea why they don't want the state to take over. The whole thing is really freaked up.

      I'm from Grosse Pointe, which is basically a 10sq mi island surrounded by bleakness. Upside is that its two public highschools are in ranked very high in the state. Down side is that it's mostly conservative white people. I live near one of the edges. I can literally walk 1000ft and everything starts looking like it's falling apart. The divide is amazing. In Detroit, police are getting cuts and can't handle all the crimes. Here, you get 3 police cruisers showing up to the most mundane of things. And some of the cruisers are very expensive.

      So yeah. Detroit.

    34. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      You use ever last dime you can scratch up, so that there is NONE left over at the end of the month, the end of the quarter, and the end of the year. I did monthly, quarterly, and annual returns for my ships long enough to know how it works.

      And this is different from divisions in corporations....how, exactly? Every department manager in any organization (public or private) wants to maximize his department's resources and not see his budget cut the next fiscal year.

    35. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      LOL, you apply that critical eye to corporate waste?

      Travel about 50 miles due east to the wonderful world of the Detroit Public school system.

      How much money has the DPS wasted compared to Enron? Worldcom? Take all public organizations together - have they blown up more money than exists on the planet the way the banking industry did in 2008?

      The pressure to limit waste in private enterprise is clear

      Which is why the executive class continues to be awarded with double digit increases on their multimillion dollar salaries even as they drive their companies into the ground. Something you can't say for the worst district superintendent you could find in the country.

      So yeah, you're right....there's no comparison here, no comparison at all.

    36. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Uberbah · · Score: 0

      I can tell you're touchy about this, but you'll have to excuse us... we're all a little baffled.

      Because you're a bunch of Randian fundamentalists that cry foul when millions are wasted in the public sector but turn a blind eye when trillions are wasted in the private sector.

    37. Re:Seems a little inflated... by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

      You got there before me and you are absolutely correct.

      --
      http://www.acetonestudio.com
    38. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Shifty0x88 · · Score: 1

      Ya 8 years is a long time for tech to go un-upgraded.

      Those machines could barely run much anymore, and frankly all of those and any P4s they have(let's face it, everyone has one, but now they are just old and terrible) need to go.

      Adobe CS products take lots of memory, and lots of processing power to run, and I wouldn't touch that without at least a hyperthreaded dual-core(probably more like a quad-core) with at least 4gb of RAM(probably 8GB)

    39. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a graduate of that school district within the past 10 years I can safely promise that it will be squandered. Bunch of freaking fools.

    40. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Rasperin · · Score: 1

      Here's the thing though, they don't need to buy apple products in which they pay a rather large brand tax for. Dell caters at cost to public institutions. They could build similar systems for a quarter to half the cost (depending on the discount provided by apple). iPads could be replaced by equivalent $200 android or windows tablets. Etc etc etc.

      --
      WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
    41. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Rasperin · · Score: 2

      I am in charge of an IT department for a multi-national bank, here is the deal, I have $x in my budget, if I have any left over I lose that much from my budget next year even if I need more (for hiring, new equipment, new software, etc). However, if I spend it all, then I can ask for more. So things seem pretty much the same to me... I make up costs to dump my budget at the end of the year so that I can retain my current staff and maybe hire on a another 1 or 2 people.

      --
      WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
    42. Re:Seems a little inflated... by jhoegl · · Score: 1

      You seem like the person writing the letter. Should we just accept your word for it or question its validity?
      Dare I risk detention?

    43. Re:Seems a little inflated... by camperslo · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, donated equipment only reduces acquisition cost. What about SUPPORT costs?

      There's no way that $2700 per student is justified. Someone that's projecting costs that high cannot be trusted to find an efficient solution. If they go with either Macs or linux machines, most of the usual support costs (malware issues) are gone. They can pick and choose from free or low cost machines, and use only those that support their core OS and apps. And they don't need IT loading the machines. Volunteers can do it. And there are plenty of businesses that would be happy to take a write off, when contributing a number of identical machines. Many that bog down under all the antivirus C@%& do just fine under Linux. Saying it can't be done is an unacceptable answer. It must be done. Some areas have done pretty well, with most of their support from only instructors and students when using Macs. Let IT deal with the clogged printers. Many could probably get bulk buyings used early Intel-based Macbooks (that don't run 10.7) for 1/10th that per head cost, from businesses upgrading. At $2700 a head they could be giving out cars and have people carpool. That amount is absurdly high. They could use few or no computers at all and have smaller classes and do other things. Some of the people that went to school with no computers seem to have come out better educated. Sure they're useful. But students don't need all the worlds answers, they need strong fundamentals and critical thinking. Too much of the instant reward push a button and have something now exposure is bad for developing minds that are willing to spend some time and work a while to achieve some goals. People spend a great deal of time on computers, but how productive is it really? Many might see a boost in some aspects of their lives if they spent less time. It's a costly mixed blessing.

    44. Re:Seems a little inflated... by drizzt4381 · · Score: 1

      Our career experiences have been fairly parallel then. I concur with your observation.

    45. Re:Seems a little inflated... by lorenlal · · Score: 1

      I'm losing my mod points for this, but I couldn't take it.

      Your post is quite insightful, and I wholeheartedly agree with the posting. But you really need to brush up on using the preview button. Many others on here need to as well, but my pedantic side took over right here.

    46. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      eMacs were useless in the first place. Where i work, we only bought them for one MAC lab and only because apple wanted over $1500 for iMacs at the time and there was not much money available (our PC desktops were $700 and more powerful)

      The request for upgrades is totally reasonable.

    47. Re:Seems a little inflated... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > Cabling: ever here of bandwidth? expanding needs? Paying someone to even check it? Adding new clsases? more ports?

      They're a school. What exactly do you think they would be doing with all of that bandwidth? You don't just to blindly "add more capacity" just because a certain number of years have gone by. Wired tech is actually rather mature and was rather mature even 8 years ago.

      What's the actual need? What's the business case? You might be hard pressed to justify it for a business. Never mind a school.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    48. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not so much Michigan as 'Detroit and its suburbs', which indeed collectively form what may be the most crap-hole-ish area in the country.

    49. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, they SAID it's over 10 years. They said the same thing the last three times they did tech upgrades-- and every time, they blew the money all at once with nothing to show for it.

    50. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think what a lot of people tend to forget is that many government buildings, including schools, are old concrete structures that were built decades ago. There would be infrastructure improvements that would have to be made in electrical wiring, air conditioning and/or heating, security, etc that has to be updated for the information age. Even to build a new building as a technical center within a single school will cost a few million. As this is a district, there will be infrastructure upgrades to existing buildings and in some other schools entirely new building may be needed if it is more feasible to just build a new structure.

    51. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Add to that Apple text book program

      haven't looked into this but it might be a good idea, as long as the text books don't have to be re-purchased for most subjects(maths, grammar, history up to current, science up to current, etc.) for many many years, decades even. or, are they strictly licensed for a certain period of time? this sort of stuff should really be bringing houghton-mifflin and the likes to their greedy fucking knees instead of their incessant chapter-change-around book-gouging.

    52. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm certainly not in the Randian camp, nor am I any kind of fundamentalist. So you can relax with the name-calling.

      But you're right about the other bits. I'd be among the first to "cry foul when millions are wasted" by public servants. I see no reason to apologize for that.

      And no, I don't much care if a company blows money on something if I'm not one of their clients or shareholders. Why would I?

    53. Re:Seems a little inflated... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      When you're spending other people's money, and taking a cut for yourself ("adminstration"), the object is to waste more, not less.

      Yes, because private industry firms have no "administration" costs at all.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    54. Re:Seems a little inflated... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      No, GP is correct, without further evidence, all you have is a piece of text.

      And on the face of it, it seems unlikely that a teacher would write to a parent admitting to a fairly stupid mistake. Surely they would just inform the parent of the detention, say it was for disobedience/being cheeky or whatever and leave it at that? If I was a teacher, I wouldn't admit to a parent that I taught that 6 * 5 was 40 instead of 30

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    55. Re:Seems a little inflated... by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Money should be put toward education rather than encouraging students to find careers as "scum of the Earth".
      Counter intuitive/productive, spending money that could go to academics and help them be productive in society, rather than a boat anchor. I've strived for years to teach my children to revere truth.
      We really don't have a need to throw more money at education, we have merely to weed out that which is unnecessary fluff and we will be funding super education on par with the American dream, instead of what we have.Think about it, discuss...

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    56. Re:Seems a little inflated... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      And no, I don't much care if a company blows money on something if I'm not one of their clients or shareholders. Why would I?

      As you well know, a private company that blows trillions will be a financial institution. They get bailed out by the taxpayer, and then next year award themselves large bonuses as usual for turning up to work and doing their already well paid fucking jobs.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    57. Re:Seems a little inflated... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Isn't there a big difference between what is obsolete/close to useless for a commercial organisation, and the same thing for students?

      Does it really matter if yur student newspaper is produced on an 8 year old machine with 8 year old software? Unless the main purpose of the course is to teach you how to use the latest versions of software (rather than how to be a journalist/designer generally) what is the difference?

      It's like saying that you have to upgrade your machines so that the students can run the latest versions of Word and Excel in order to get basic word processing/spreadsheet experience, whereas you could teach 99% of the same things to them on a Pentium 2 running Office 95.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    58. Re:Seems a little inflated... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Unless you are running specific courses on "how to use the latest Adobe CS software products" just use some other software instead. People did graphic design on computers for a long time with hard drives a lot smaller than 4gb.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    59. Re:Seems a little inflated... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      The pressure to limit waste in private enterprise is clear - less waste equals more profit.

      That only matters if you are the financial director or something. Non-financial managers don't care about profits in themselves either: as long as they stick to their budgets they're given their annual performanc bonus, same as in the public sector.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    60. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      If you're trying to train people to work in industry, training them on old software that nobody uses anymore is doing them a disservice.

    61. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      I'd imagine you want your students to be prepared to enter the industry and be able to use the current software. You could teach the core skills using Office 95, but your students would find themselves rather confused when faced with the current version of Office, since the interface is completely different. They'd have the core skills, but be unable to apply them.

      There's also concerns about security. Is it really a good idea to connect a system to a network which hasn't seen a security update in half a decade (for the 800MHz eMac, which supports only OS 10.4)? If your institution is going to run OS X, you shouldn't be running any machine that doesn't support 10.7, the only version of the OS currently getting updates.

      The requirements for that aren't particularly onerous. x64-64 support (Core 2 Duo macs or later), 2GB of RAM. You can do that on a Mac Mini from 2007, a full five years ago. Five years between replacing Apple computers is not unreasonable.

    62. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      Apple does have premium pricing, but they're not four times Dell. Not if you match up both the specs and form factor as closely as possible. The Mac Air, for example, is priced similarly to comparable ultrabooks.

    63. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Rasperin · · Score: 1

      However, with Dell you don't need to match the specs to get computers that can run Adobe Photoshop CS6 while with mac you get more hardware than the average school is going to need.

      --
      WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
    64. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Shifty0x88 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I just can't believe they really need to upgrade all 8000 computers at once. There can't be that many people in their journalism class.

      Some of those computers are still probably good for basic work, hell my server is a 5 year old AMD dual-core system, all I did was give it more RAM and some more hard drives for storage space and it was good to go.

      There is no reason a secretary needs the latest i5 with 4GB of ram, but she does probably need more than a P4. I guess I would need a list of all of the computers there are where they can go next that would determine how many computers they actually need

    65. Re:Seems a little inflated... by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      The difference is that a P4 running Win7 is still getting security updates. An eMac hasn't gotten any security updates in something like half a decade, and can't (or at least shouldn't) be connected to any network. That could be problematic.

    66. Re:Seems a little inflated... by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Well, with the Dells you can specify "not completely useless in a few years". Hopefully they learned their lessons with the eMacs.

  2. eMacs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Apple stopped production on the eMac line back in 2006. Assuming they got the last one for sale, that means a 6 year lifespan. Sounds like they're due for a replacement.

    1. Re:eMacs? by anagama · · Score: 1

      It's worse than that -- the last revision of the eMac was in May of 2005, with the 1.42 ghz G4. I believe that the machines would choke running a modern browser hitting a script heavy site. Plus, I think Apple stopped providing security updates to non-intel macs a long time ago.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    2. Re:eMacs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, 6 years old means these computers are YOUNG for public schools. Our district is still using a lot of win2000 boxes although most have been upgraded to winXP.

    3. Re:eMacs? by gman003 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Due for replacement? That's putting it mildly. Especially since:
      a) They're way unsupported, even by Open Source. First off, they're PowerPC chips - the highest version of Mac OS you can put on them is 10.5, which quite a lot of programs don't support - even some open-source ones. And I've tried installing Linux on an eMac - I never actually got it working. So their best option may be upgrading.
      b) The eMac was the "cheap, low-power" Apple computer. It used cheaper, lower-end parts, often already outdated (it used G4 chips until the end, while iMacs made the jump to G5 two years earlier). I can totally believe that they're unable to run Illustrator. Even current versions of Firefox might be a bit of a stretch, since I doubt the PPC builds are as heavily optimized as the x86 ones. Keep in mind, this is a machine with 256MB of RAM and, at best, a 1.4gHz, single-core processor, about on par with a Pentium II. Most of the students probably have more processing power in their phones.
      c) It's a freaking CRT screen. A 1280x960 CRT screen. I would absolutely hate trying to do graphics work on one of them.

    4. Re:eMacs? by kthreadd · · Score: 1

      A G4 is certainly not on par with a P2, that would be the PowerPC 603e or similar.
      A G4 is more similar in performance to a P3 or P4.

    5. Re:eMacs? by gman003 · · Score: 1

      My bad - meant to type III. Keys seem to be sticking a bit today...

    6. Re:eMacs? by Yebyen · · Score: 1

      b) The eMac was the "cheap, low-power" Apple computer. It used cheaper, lower-end parts, often already outdated (it used G4 chips until the end, while iMacs made the jump to G5 two years earlier). I can totally believe that they're unable to run Illustrator. Even current versions of Firefox might be a bit of a stretch, since I doubt the PPC builds are as heavily optimized as the x86 ones.

      > Even current versions of Firefox might be a bit of a stretch, since I doubt the PPC builds are as heavily optimized as the x86 ones.

      I was just trying to load up my G4 Mac Mini a few days ago, which was still running Leopard, only option on a PPC mac...

      There are no current Firefox builds for G4/Leopard OS. At the time I was last running on this machine, Firefox for Mac available was at 2.0.0.x, and today, you can't even download a recent Firefox 3.6.x, let alone a build of the newer Firefox 4-10 series.

      Since Gmail nags me when I visit with a version as recent as Firefox/Iceweasel from Debian Lenny, or anything older than the most recent 3.x firefoxes, to "upgrade to a modern browser" (which is just not available in Debian Lenny)

      These macs would be suffering from all the same issues.

      --
      Restating the obvious since nineteen aught five.
    7. Re:eMacs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Firefox 3.6.27 still being built for Mac, which includes PowerPC support, even for 10.4.x:

      http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/all-older.html

    8. Re:eMacs? by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      And no way they'd run InDesign 4 much less 6. Which is what most newspapers do actual design & layout on.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    9. Re:eMacs? by JoeCommodore · · Score: 2

      They run ID 4 fine and at a good speed too. It's 5 that dropped PPC support.

      --
      "Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
    10. Re:eMacs? by DogDude · · Score: 1

      It's a freaking CRT screen.

      [this comment is made in a fake girly voice]
      Oh my! A CRT screen! Well, my panties are in a twist at hearing about people use such ANCIENT technology! Goodness, gracious, everybody KNOW that flat monitors are better because they... well, they just are. Oh, my goodness! I don't know how anybody could survive doing graphics work on a CRT!

      My point is that you're super prissy. People use old hardware all the time and nobody (as far as I know) has died yet. Your entire post is devoid of any argument other than "OMG, It's so old!". I feel like I just read a post by a 12 year old girl trying to explain why she *needs* a particular piece of trendy clothing.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    11. Re:eMacs? by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      My bad - meant to type III. Keys seem to be sticking a bit today...

      Eh... even then... the G4 did far more per cycle than even the Pentium 3 did... plus it had a full SIMD set that exceeded even the SSE3 standards.

      I had a G4 PowerBook at the time, and I regularly compared the processor to twice the MHz on the Intel side... meaning my 500 MHz laptop was performing about as well as my 1GHz Pentium 3. And then the Pentium 4 was really half the performance per MHz from the Pentium 3, so that puts it as essentially equivalent to a 2GHz Pentium 4.

      So, really a 1.4GHz G4 compares really only well against the Pentium 4... ... All this being of course entirely just pedantry... the machines are regardless still crazy old.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    12. Re:eMacs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google TenFourFox. G3, G4 and G5 optimized firefox builds. It's clunky as all hell, but Firefox is clunky in general. It'll perform slightly better that its equivalent build from Mozilla, at least regarding the 3.x series. New releases are out shortly after official firefox releases.

    13. Re:eMacs? by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Dude, ID 4 wouldn't 'run fine' on a dual core 2GHz PowerMac. Much less an underpowered eMac.

      I know because we had to get quad core PowerMacs for production when we rolled it out.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    14. Re:eMacs? by kyrio · · Score: 0

      It's worse than that. The shitty computers they bought can't multitask, or run pretty much any modern software (browser).

    15. Re:eMacs? by kyrio · · Score: 1

      I could understand if they were using old 1680x1050 120Hz+ monitors with proper colour management, but they are using some ancient shit monitors on garbage computers (garbage when they were purchased, even more so now). This is ignoring, of course, that the computer upgrades, to something that will actually run a modern browser or any modern software, is a small fraction of the total upgrades, and that the huge bulk of it is needed for infrastructure upgrades.

    16. Re:eMacs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reduction in cost of power usage achieved by running LCDs instead of CRTs would actually off-set the purchase price significantly.

    17. Re:eMacs? by gman003 · · Score: 1

      First, let me list my old-school nerd qualifications, so you know I'm not just equating "old" with "unusable":
      * I remember when computers came in "beige", not "glossy black".
      * My first computer was a 486. I've used every version of Windows since 3.1. Yes, even ME. And Vista.
      * I remember 5.25" floppies on the Apple ][. I still have a box of 3.5" ones at my desk.
      * I can still imitate the sound of a dial-up modem connecting, from memory
      * I spend half my time on the command line. I regularly install Cygwin to make the Windows CLI both more usable and more familiar.
      * I compile my own kernels. On OpenBSD.
      * I've programmed in Assembly. And never want to again.
      * I keep an Athlon 900 system running as a personal "server" for messing around on. It's also my tertiary backup desktop, and I've needed a third level of redundancy.
      * My text editor of choice is EMACS (aka Escape-Meta-Alt-Control-Shift). I know how to, and actually have had cause to, use ed.
      * I know who Captain Crunch is. The hacker, not the cereal mascot.
      * I can run through the first episode of Doom in under 10 minutes, without skipping any levels. I also remember Oregon Trail, Duck Hunt, and Galaga.
      * The computer I'm typing this at is nearly six years old.

      So, now that I've proven my nerd cred, let's talk about CRTs. I actually just ditched my last one earlier this year - I'd kept one hooked up to the aforementioned Athlon system, in case I needed direct access to it (like if I'd borked the SSH config, or needed root login (which I disabled over SSH)).

      Now, there are good CRT monitors. The eMac doesn't have one. I've used one, recently even. Tried putting Linux on it - failed (somehow couldn't find the CD drive to copy the install files from).

      Compared to even the cheapest modern LCD, they're blurry as hell, have poor color reproduction, a poor viewing angle, and take up a lot of space (and power). And graphics is one area where you really want every pixel possible - a 1280x960 screen is cramped.

      If they're still using the original mice, those are also those god-awful puck mice. That alone would make any reasonable user want a new computer.

      The only good thing I can say about the eMac is that the BIOS-level CLI uses a Times Roman font. Nice touch. Very Apple. But that's the only nice thing I can say about using one of those machines.

    18. Re:eMacs? by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I have to disagree: nothing nice about a Times Roman font. Your other points are spot on though.

      --
      http://www.acetonestudio.com
    19. Re:eMacs? by Shifty0x88 · · Score: 1
      Let's run the numbers, just on their computers to start: FTA:

      More than half of the $45.8 million, about $25 million, would be spent to replace the district’s computers — both laptops and desktops.

      The goal is to provide two laptop carts per elementary, three laptop carts per middle school and 12 carts per high school, according to emails and documents obtained by AnnArbor.com. The exception would be at Forsythe Middle School, which would receive four carts because it has less overall computer lab space.

      Trent said 99 percent of Ann Arbor’s computers are three years old or older. Sixty-six percent are five to six years old and 34 percent are seven to eight years old, he said.

      Let's say 30 laptops per laptop cart:
      5 high schools[5 carts each], 5 middle schools[3 carts each], 1 middle school gets 4 carts(instead of 3), and 21 elementary schools[2 carts each]
      ( 30 * 12 * 5 ) + ( 30 * 3 * 5 ) + ( 30 * 4 * 1 ) + ( 30 * 2 * 21 ) =
      1800 + 450 + 120 + 1260 = 3630 laptops just on laptop carts alone.

      3630 * $1000(average cost of a laptop) = $3,530,000

      You actually need the carts too, so let's say they buy expensive $250 carts:
      ( 12 * 5 ) + ( 3 * 5 ) + 4 + ( 2 * 21 ) = 121

      121 * $250 = $30,250 just on the carts

      Replacing 8,142 of the district’s approximately 8,250 computers

      8142 * $1000(average cost of a desktop) = $8,142,000


      So, let's total it up:
      $8,142,000 + $3,530,000 + $30,250 = $11,702,250


      Hmm, a little short of $25million, granted I was low-balling the cost of laptops and some desktops, so let's see what they would be spending on these computers for the numbers to make sense. Let's double up every price:

      3630 * $2000 = $7,260,000 on laptops
      8142 * $2000 = $16,284,000 on desktops
      121 * $500 = $60,500 on the actual laptop carts

      Total = $23,604,500

      That's a little closer, but where are they getting their supplies from? that would mean they would need another $1.4 million of carts or on the computers which seems a bit much.

    20. Re:eMacs? by Binestar · · Score: 1

      Software? Warranty plans? Wiring/Wireless? Power? IT staff to run the new software? This is $270/student per year over 10 years. You just don't grasp the scale.

      --
      Do you Gentoo!?
    21. Re:eMacs? by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      First, let me list my old-school nerd qualifications, so you know I'm not just equating "old" with "unusable":
      ...
      * My first computer was a 486. I've used every version of Windows since 3.1. Yes, even ME. And Vista.


      Off my lawn, sonny.

    22. Re:eMacs? by zaren · · Score: 1

      Wow. I was part of the team that installed these machines back in 2005. I'm shocked that they're still in service. They were dinosaurs years ago. Obsolete hardware, no way to run current software, like web browsers - yes, I said browsers. This is PowerPC hardware in those eMacs. Nobody writes plug-in or browsers to support that architecture any more. And if they're doing any sort of networked storage, they have to pull the PowerPC-based (and no longer supported) XServes as well... gonna be spendy.

      --
      Come to the University of Mars! Classes starting soon!
    23. Re:eMacs? by Shifty0x88 · · Score: 1
      Maybe you didn't read the same article I did?

      FTA:

      The first series would be for equipment and infrastructure improvements primarily, while the final two series are not entirely planned out yet, said district spokeswoman Liz Margolis.

      More than half of the $45.8 million, about $25 million, would be spent to replace the district’s computers — both laptops and desktops.

      They said they were going to spend $25 million just on computers alone. I took that as hardware only, no software, no employees working on them, just hardware.

      Power and IT staff must be part of the 2nd year spending, to cover the extra power from all the new computers, laptops charging, and heating and cooling for their new and old servers, and all the extra maintenance and bugs

    24. Re:eMacs? by gman003 · · Score: 1

      Listen, there's CS teachers out there nowadays who don't even know what an i486SX is, let alone have used one. I actually had to explain to one of my teachers what "extended memory" meant.

      Your standards for "old-school" must be pretty damn strict. Let me guess: you started on the PDP-11, and you had to dial in with an acoustic modem, uphill, in the snow, both ways, and you remember writing stuff for 2BSD.

    25. Re:eMacs? by Binestar · · Score: 1

      Then you're taking it wrong. Replacing computers needs to include software and the work to actually put them in place. Doesn't help to have a heap of hardware.

      --
      Do you Gentoo!?
    26. Re:eMacs? by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      1650x1050 isn't that much of an improvement over 1280x960, unless you're planning on running several programs simultaneously, And the eMacs, with a practical RAM limit of 2 GB, and a single core, aren't going to be doing much of that.

    27. Re:eMacs? by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what you mean by BIOS level CLI--but Apple, if it wanted to be stylish at such a low level, would probably use Garamond over Times Roman.

    28. Re:eMacs? by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Of course they can multitask. They timeslice.. Don't give me some bullshit about the chips being single core. My own mac only has two cores, but effectively juggles 392 threads, and 77 processes.
        However, Time Machine really does start to become a burden on G4s.

    29. Re:eMacs? by manu0601 · · Score: 1

      But it is so slow after a few hours of use that it is barely usable. TenFourFox is a viable alternative, but lacks plugins support.

    30. Re:eMacs? by DogDude · · Score: 1

      Seriously.... A Mac with 2 GB of RAM can't multitask well? I'm really surprised, because 2 GB of RAM is standard for all of my Windows XP boxes, and they work just fine.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    31. Re:eMacs? by Shifty0x88 · · Score: 1

      The first series would be for equipment and infrastructure improvements primarily

      You are reading more into it then they are admitting they are spending money on.

    32. Re:eMacs? by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      I had a Powermac G4 with 1.75 Gigs and a single 1.25 Ghz CPU. It felt slow under 10.5. Yes, Time machine was neat. Yes, it was nice to have all your files indexed by content. But all of these background processes kept the CPU pegged for a good fraction of the hour, every hour. Compilations took longer than they should. Web Browsing wasn't really fluid.

      Now, I have a machine with two cores, 8 GB Ram, background processes galore, 2 monitors, and a MPEG-4 compression workload. OK, it won't run the latest games with aplomb, mostly because I lack a real video card. But it doesn't feel slow-- ever. I'm happy with the way the computer schedules things-- I don't need to shut down processes because are interfering with what I'd like to do. That's what "multitasking well" means, in my book.

      OSX 10.5 and its successors are optimized for more than one core, and a lot more memory than the eMac was designed to have.

      Try putting Windows 7 or Vista on your Windows XP boxes.

    33. Re:eMacs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Keep in mind that the crap Apple was selling as an eMac in 2006 is even less useful than a Windows 2000 machine from five years prior.

    34. Re:eMacs? by guitardood · · Score: 1

      I could understand if they were using old 1680x1050 120Hz+ monitors with proper colour management, but they are using some ancient shit monitors on garbage computers (garbage when they were purchased, even more so now). This is ignoring, of course, that the computer upgrades, to something that will actually run a modern browser or any modern software, is a small fraction of the total upgrades, and that the huge bulk of it is needed for infrastructure upgrades.

      Trust him. He knows. He's an intelligent moron, dun gradiated thru the sixth grade and wants to be a double naught spy.

      Retard!

      --
      -- L8R, guitardood
  3. Them's old computers by Moblaster · · Score: 1

    The eMac line uses G4 chips (not Intel) and was discontinued in 2006. Mac speed 700mhz. Probably not much RAM. They were very nice machines in their day. That day has passed. Now much software requires Intel, and they can't run the latest version of the Mac OS (Lion). So yeah, it's time for new hardware.

    From there, you could argue how cutting edge the new stuff should be. But if they are buying on a 6+ plus replacement cycle, it's best to at least buy at today's hockey-stick price point where you get maximum power CPUs at the best bang-for-the-buck -- i.e. just a bit short of the overpriced bleeding edge chips.

    1. Re:Them's old computers by jedidiah · · Score: 2

      What does running "the latest and greatest" have to do with journalism exactly? Just use the old tools. Software doesn't wear out. Just what sort of revolutionary changes are supposed to have occurred in these programs in the interim?

      Although the costs they're citing for replacements seem bloated even for Apple gear.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:Them's old computers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What does running "the latest and greatest" have to do with journalism exactly?

      I think they've renamed the journalism course as "Blogging in the Blogosphere". They have a blog about it.

    3. Re:Them's old computers by Sancho · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is also for teaching the tools. Do you train on NT4?

    4. Re:Them's old computers by shadowrat · · Score: 2

      i don't think google docs existed in 2006. If it did i think people thought it was a crazy idea to implement a whole office suite in javascript. While i don't think the students NEED to use cs6, using google docs is sensible. I'm not surprised if it works like ass on a 6 year old iMac. I have a 4 year old laptop that struggles with it.

    5. Re:Them's old computers by mspohr · · Score: 1

      Yeah!
      let them use a pencil!
      Make them clean bathrooms also!
      damn kids today ...

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    6. Re:Them's old computers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, we use OS/2 Warp as a teaching platform!

    7. Re:Them's old computers by MasterOfGoingFaster · · Score: 1

      Surprise! The corporate world is generally using really old computers and software. Engineering is using AutoCAD 2000, Office 2003, and Windows XP. Marketing is using Quark Xpress. The ERP system is an old AS400 running software that is decades old. And they still have Netware servers - a lot of them.

      So if you really want to train the kids for the "real world", buying the latest/greatest may not be your best use of money.

      --
      Place nail here >+
    8. Re:Them's old computers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have documents from September 2006 in my Google Docs. It's not exactly a whole office suite now and it was much more stripped down back then. It was really not much more than a ckeditor which saved periodically back then so it ran pretty smoothly in Firefox.

    9. Re:Them's old computers by drerwk · · Score: 1

      As is mentioned in many responses, the eMacs are PPC. I supported my daughter's eMac until about 2 years ago; but too many things slowly stopped working, or needed too much memory. PPC G3 means Firefox 3.6 or earlier. That means an older version of Safari. It means no Flash as far as I can tell - I spent almost an hour trying to find a flash installer for PPC recently, including trying to install some from Adobes archive site without success. I am supporting an old PPC G4 iBook for my 5 year old now and probably will for another year or more. But when I gave up the eMac it really was too much of my time to be worth fighting anymore. Newish Wordpress themes require recent browsers, so the software can were out because the websites are using features more recent than are available anymore on the old browsers.

    10. Re:Them's old computers by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      There's no good reason why you could not. If they are doing their job properly then they are teaching concepts. This does not require any particular brand or version of software.

      If the teacher is not just wasting everyone's time and money then the skills the students learn can be applied to any "product".

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    11. Re:Them's old computers by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Oddly, most of the time, companies want you to have some experience on modern tools. It's not always the case, but it happens. It makes you much more marketable.

    12. Re:Them's old computers by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      They already have modern tools. What they don't have is the latest bleeding edge version. Most companies operate like this because they have the same sorts of concerns that the school does. Stuff costs money and changes are disruptive.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  4. Our schools recently upgraded all of their tech by elgeeko.com · · Score: 2

    They're now using #3 pencils instead of #2.

    1. Re:Our schools recently upgraded all of their tech by w_dragon · · Score: 1

      They should contract with Mozilla for pencils then. They'll be on #11 before they know it!

  5. Not a chance... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There is not a chance in the world the county government where I live would float a bond anywhere close to that size for technology upgrades, especially when those upgrades might by obsolete in 3-5 years. For the size system we have, with the same spending per student, that would be roughly $22 million. Even if we hadn't just floated $100M worth of bonds for building 2 high schools and a middle school, there would be zero chance of that passing. Typically, technology here is funded at the school level though PTA fund raising. It was quite the big deal when they announced that all of the elementary school classrooms in the county were not equipped with Smartboards, after 7 years of fundraising. The school board would be run out on a rail for suggesting such a bond.

  6. Sigh, slashdot is rather prone to hyperbole by FhnuZoag · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As TFA says, "more than half of the $45.8 million, about $25 million, would be spent to replace the district’s computers — both laptops and desktops.". So that comes down to 1520/student. More importantly, this is for a program of improvements over the next *ten years*, not an immediate replacement job - as the article argues that the >3 years old computers currently in use are obsolete, I assume the money might fund more than one cycle of improvements. At one cycle per 3 years, we're talking ~500 dollars per student, not accounting for inflation, which seems pretty sensible. Anyway this all seems like a storm in a teacup.

    1. Re:Sigh, slashdot is rather prone to hyperbole by Xacid · · Score: 3, Informative

      My favorite part was the line "InDesign CS6 has not been released yet and its system requirements are unknown". Can't just look at the previous release's specs and project from there? Jesus, what kind of non-IT fella wrote this garbage?

      I don't think their request is unreasonable - as it even states within the summary itself that it'll also be used to upgrade the infrastructure as well.

    2. Re:Sigh, slashdot is rather prone to hyperbole by gr3yh47 · · Score: 1

      But they dont need one computer per student... so even 1520 per student is quite high. also... even if it was one computer per student, 1520 per computer is quite high. Dell has education discounts, they could easily get well above average computers for ~$600. even at the rate of 1 computer per 2 children (still seems unnecessary) you're looking at $300 per student; thus, this is overbudgeted by 1220/student, or about 80%...

    3. Re:Sigh, slashdot is rather prone to hyperbole by TheSeventh · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm going to guess that some of that money per computer is going to be used for software licenses . . . I don't know. Even with an education discount, there's more than just the cost of the hardware.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they're not out to get you.
    4. Re:Sigh, slashdot is rather prone to hyperbole by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      We need to get on a "bring your own device" model. If it is laden with viruses, your problem, grades will suffer. People need to own and maintain their own devices anyway. ITS FOR THE CHILDREN! Children have parents--sometimes. If we start with the BYOD model people will adapt. It is not that big of an inconvenience.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    5. Re:Sigh, slashdot is rather prone to hyperbole by DrgnDancer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Have you ever bought gear from Dell as a non-consumer? Sometimes I wonder about the people on this site, aren't we supposed to be techs? My company typically spends between $1200 and $1500 on every Dell we buy. Sure you can get one for $400: it will be obsolete before it's delivered, includes one year of self service warranty, has no monitor, and is generally the last thing you want for wide scale deployment.

      You also can't just say "Get one computer per 2 students." It doesn't work like that. They don't buy computers based on students, they buy them based on classroom space. You need 32 computers in a 32 seat classroom if that classroom is going to be used for computers classes, you might need no computers in an English classroom. You need labs, which are often fully stocked with a computer on every desk, but except during crunch times probably not 100% utilized. You need computers for teachers, or are they supposed to just teach the computer classes from the chalkboard? In elementary schools you can probably get away with a simple two or three computers per student, in high schools and middle schools where students change classrooms every hour or so it's a lot more complicated.

      Have you ever run a wide scale deployment? Have you ever worked in a school district? My guess is no to both.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    6. Re:Sigh, slashdot is rather prone to hyperbole by BZWingZero · · Score: 2

      But what about those students who cannot afford a computer at all? How are they supposed to complete their assignments?

    7. Re:Sigh, slashdot is rather prone to hyperbole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, who in their right mind calls out a district so frugal that they are still using emacs?

      The bond issue covers tech costs for the next ten years. That's less than $1500/10 = $150/student.

      Keep in mind, that's for all computers in the schools, not just the ones for students (at least one "teacher computer" is necessary in every classroom for projecting power points and other aids, grade input, assessment design, etc.). After software costs, parts, peripherals, etc., I'm actually concerned that they haven't budgeted enough for that time period. I mean $150/student probably only purchases three or four computers per classroom of 20. That's two or three computers per class of 20. Obviously computers last for more than a year, but still.

    8. Re:Sigh, slashdot is rather prone to hyperbole by Solandri · · Score: 1

      As TFA says, "more than half of the $45.8 million, about $25 million, would be spent to replace the districtâ(TM)s computers â" both laptops and desktops.". So that comes down to 1520/student.

      Is that really the right metric? The quote you cite doesn't state those computers are necessarily for student use. The TFA lists it as: "Replacing 8,142 of the district's approximately 8,250 computers." So it sounds like the $25 million is going to replace nearly all of the computers the administration uses at an average cost of $3070 each.

    9. Re:Sigh, slashdot is rather prone to hyperbole by JoeCommodore · · Score: 1

      Speaking form experience in the NP field you only get big spends once in a while, otherwise you make due. So when you upgrade you really want to get something that's going to literally last seven or so years. Because (fingers crossed) you might be lucky to get new system in seven years.

      Emacs were a great choice back in 2005/6 , they had great speed and good sized displays at a great price. and I'm sure in their six or seven years they have done well.

      Though I like the idea of Google docs (for education it's free up to 5000 seats, reduces one-to-one system administration needs, increases collaboration, etc) I would start thinking of alternatives to InDesign as it is VERY costly. Maybe considering going Linux and Inkscape/Scribus/LibreOffice, it's not the top of the line professional, but it is close enough and very good for doing school based journalism stuff.

      --
      "Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
    10. Re:Sigh, slashdot is rather prone to hyperbole by gr3yh47 · · Score: 1

      for the average education use a $600 dell computer will be more than enough. make exception for the ones to run indesign and sure, they will be more expensive than the others. OBVIOUSLY it doesnt work as a computer to student ratio, but my point was that once you break down what classes use computers and which ones dont, you're looking at considerably less than a 1:2 ratio. i used it arbitrarily to make the point that even with an unlikely...ly high ratio, the budget seems massively inflated. Also, at 1200-1500 it sounds like you're buying one at a time and speccing them to be quite powerful

    11. Re:Sigh, slashdot is rather prone to hyperbole by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      Emacs were a great choice back in 2005/6

      Apple announced their transition to Intel in June 2005. Having purchased a 68k mac during the transition to PowerPC, I would argue that buying a G4 mac with the intention to use it for 6-7 years right at the start of the transition was a braindead thing to do. If they had planned to replace them three years later, it wouldn't have been a big deal. But apparently they didn't.

      In fact, as early as February 2006, you could get a similarly priced Intel mac, in the Mac Mini. So buying a G4 mac in 2006 would have been a really moronic move.

    12. Re:Sigh, slashdot is rather prone to hyperbole by DrgnDancer · · Score: 2

      You're still not looking at this from the point of view of a large scale deployment and minimizing long term costs. A $1200 Dell computer (purchased with corporate discount and in volume) is a machine that comes with 3 year onsite maintenance, it's powerful enough that it won't have to be replaced before those three years are up, it has a 23-24 inch monitor that is comfortable to use and won't cause eye strain, it has software license for all the tools the employees (or student in this case) needs... In short it's a computer that I can put on a desk and not worry about for three to four years. If it breaks, I can call Dell and it will be fixed. It's not a high end workstation, but I can be reasonably confident that it'll be usable in 4 years.

      When you spend $600 on a machine, even just a machine for a secretary or sales guy (or student in this case), you get a machine that probably only has a one year self service or mail off warranty. There's a huge increase in support costs over time and many systems. You get a machine that's much more likely to need replacing much earlier. Either because it breaks after the support period or just because it can't run new software. You get no monitor or a small crappy monitor that is hard to work on over any length of time (an argument *might* be made that a sacrifice here isn't as big a deal for a school, since kids aren't using the computers all day. Still, it's not a whole lot extra per unit to get something much nicer to use). It gets you a machine with only basic software. Software is a huge expense for school systems. Few computers are straight "general use" system. Math classes want math software, journalism and publishing classes need special software. Microsoft gives away VS student version for free, but I believe they charge schools at least a token amount for large installs. Lab machines might need all of the software installed on the different types of classroom computers, since you never know what class a individual student is taking when they sit down

      Again, going to Dell's website and finding the cheapest computer you can, or even a computer one or two steps up from that, doesn't cut it for determining "cost". Add in support costs, add in software, add in a bit of future proofing and it adds up. Also note that this plan being proposed is for a ten year cycle. That's at least one replacement for every piece of hardware involved, no matter how skillfully you keep it limping along.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    13. Re:Sigh, slashdot is rather prone to hyperbole by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      CS5.5 Master, Educational = $899. Shame the couldn't get in on the 80% off sale last week!

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    14. Re:Sigh, slashdot is rather prone to hyperbole by Pumpkin+Tuna · · Score: 1

      Lots of school districts are either trying this now or gearing up to. It's not without some questions and challenges. For example, how do you keep their viruses out of your network while allowing them Internet access? How do you afford beefing up your school wireless network to handle hundreds of simultaneous wi-fi connections? How do you make sure you are complying with CIPA through filtering? You also have to consider equity (do you buy devices for the kids who can't afford one). I'm in the tech side of education and I can tell you that things are moving this way, but it takes time, effort and thought to implement.

    15. Re:Sigh, slashdot is rather prone to hyperbole by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > it's powerful enough that it won't have to be replaced before those three years are up

      It's 2012, not 1983. The gap between old enough to be falling apart and "the latest and greatest" is simply not what it used to be. There's simply no need to blow a ton of money just so you can reassure yourself you will be able to use the same PC 3 years from now.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  7. eMacs by jackherer · · Score: 5, Informative
    eMacs are PowerPC based and therefore won't run recent versions of Mac OS and also won't run recent versions of Safari or Firefox. I wouldn't be surprised if this means they don't support Google Docs etc fully or even at all.

    They really are pretty much useless these days, I have just retired an office full of them that have been soldiering on for years but the number of websites that were simply not available to them became too great.

    1. Re:eMacs by deomacius · · Score: 1

      This is correct. Google Docs (and many other apps) no longer support this architecture at all. Plus, they are dog slow now.

    2. Re:eMacs by JoeCommodore · · Score: 1

      CS5 dropped PPC support (which eMacs are) also, so CS6 would require an intel Mac.

      Going though this is a the problem of the legacy software requiring older OS which is only supported on older hardware where the internet tools are requiring ever newer OSs which require new hardware.

      Its not that the old stuff is useless, its just that its hard to support it when the new stuff changes the requirements.

      --
      "Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
  8. Emac is PPC and intel mac cost a lot by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    The new $999 MacBook Air to education buyers is to small screen and under powered for CS 5 / CS 6 (2 GB RAM max).

    1. Re:Emac is PPC and intel mac cost a lot by blue_adept · · Score: 1

      I use InDesign CS5 on my Acer Aspire 1 (Win XP) netbook with 1 gig of RAM. Just sayin'.

      --

      "Is this just useless, or is it expensive as well?"
    2. Re:Emac is PPC and intel mac cost a lot by Pope · · Score: 1

      They're clearly not going to buy Airs for kids.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    3. Re:Emac is PPC and intel mac cost a lot by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Macs use a lot of memory-- "Safari" consumes 200 MB on my machine, and "Safari Web Content" is consuming 530 MB. A process owned by my virus checker is using 128 MB. This is real memory, not virtual. 1 gigabyte is "Wired". But what do I care-- my machine has 8GB to play with. More Ram is cheap-- unless your machine is already maxed out.

  9. eMacs not good enough? by gzipped_tar · · Score: 2

    eMacs not good enough? But I never know vi costs so much!

    --
    Colorless green Cthulhu waits dreaming furiously.
    1. Re:eMacs not good enough? by jackherer · · Score: 1

      eMacs run Emacs just fine.

  10. school systems are a big cash cow by apcullen · · Score: 2, Informative

    Voters get conned into voting for higher school budgets because they want better schools and higher property values, but the truth is much of the money is wasted. I voted against several school budgets that had over $1mil set aside for landscaping.

    1. Re:school systems are a big cash cow by geekoid · · Score: 2

      Thanks you letting us known how ignorant you are on these subjects.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:school systems are a big cash cow by TheSeventh · · Score: 1

      It's not like Ann Arbor city taxes are all that high, so it might be okay. For a SEV of about $100,000 (property value of $200,000), it will only cost you about $5,000 a year. I say, "Go For It!"

      --
      Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they're not out to get you.
    3. Re:school systems are a big cash cow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would the people voting up the above comment go back to watching your classes please? We don't pay you to read Slashdot, we pay you to teach!

    4. Re:school systems are a big cash cow by Mabhatter · · Score: 4, Informative

      The thing about Michigan is that about half the local school taxes go to the state and get redistributed. The law that allows that also prevents localities from passing separate taxes to compensate, and it limited the rate properties could appreciate That was a good heal fro districts like Klalaska that weren't paying their fair share, but for districts like Ann Arbor that were full of educators and professionals willing to pay taxes for good public schools it slashed their budgets.

      The way around the rule is to put any link of hardware or property improvements in a separate tax do more of your allocation can pay for teachers.

    5. Re:school systems are a big cash cow by Sectoid_Dev · · Score: 1

      Voters get conned into voting for higher school budgets because they want better schools and higher property values, but the truth is much of the money is wasted. I voted against several school budgets that had over $1mil set aside for landscaping.

      Indeed, students should be outside doing the landscaping themselves. Dual credits in PE and vocational training -ftw!

    6. Re:school systems are a big cash cow by apcullen · · Score: 1

      for a small school district with four schools, there is a bit of wiggle room between students mowing the lawns and paying seven figures for it.

  11. When people say... by Nyder · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... it's about the children, it's never about the children.

    --
    Be seeing you...
    1. Re:When people say... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      False, of course its about the children. Is it the best thing for the children? well that's a different question.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:When people say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Even at a school? Full of children?

    3. Re:When people say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone said this about the LA school district:
      (A former teacher)

      (this is the exact quote):"The textbook companies pimp them like a dime store hoe."

      The technology company must be doing the same.
      High School kids dont need CS6! They can get buy with CS3.
      Hell, in the high school by my house, they only have 4 CS3 machines,
      and my nephew who is taking the yearbook class ( easy A ), helps out all the students on those machines.

      If its 4.5M a year? with a 18 month lifetime? WHO are they trying to kid?

  12. I grew up in AAPS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...and while I can't comment directly on the current proposal ($2k/student seems like it ought to be able to buy a LOT), I can say that Ann Arbor has simply incredible public schools -- on par with your average private school education. They also gobble money up in ludicrous quantities, mind, but you can see the value. The teachers, especially at the high school level, are intelligent, motivated, and skilled at their craft. This is a university town, meaning that millages for the schools are seldom rejected.

  13. Web apps need browsers by homsar · · Score: 2

    The eMac OS support tops out at either 10.4 or 10.5 depending on processor speed, and uses a PowerPC architecture. I'd imagine that current-generation browsers are starting to get harder to get hold of for PPC, and web apps tend to demand up-to-date browsers.

    The last eMac was released almost seven years ago. Seven years is not a short upgrade cycle even for educational machines by any stretch of the imagination.

    Thus the upgrade is not unjustified (heck, even if the web app was unjustified, you'd still need new machines for a current version of Indesign, which is kind of a requirement for an "advanced" journalism class). Whether the budget allocated for the planned upgrade is justified is another matter, though.

  14. In all cases such as these... by Sfing_ter · · Score: 1

    In all cases such as these, look to the people in charge... either a powerful teacher/board member/it lead/administrator has it in their head that these purchases are necessary and have gathered hoards behind their cause. Wether or not they do need them is not necessarily an issue, it is the IDEA that they need them that counts in these minds. Politics is everywhere. Also, someone should alert Redmond, as there is a school district using other than Microsoft Produkts with which to compute.

    --
    A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing. Emo Philips
  15. See what your options are by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    I think it's premature to rule one way or the other without looking very carefully at it.

    If it's 45M for journalism classes and only that... then I feel it's probably a waste because we don't have a pressing need for huge numbers of journalists. The industry is already saturated.

    If they wanted 45M for programming classes or something more practical then I might see it differently. But for journalism? Page layout is not that complicated. Why do high school students need to learn how to layout a newspaper when in all likelihood only one student out of a thousand will actually be a journalist. And of that, probably one out of a hundred thousand will actually lay pages out. And even then how long does it take a professional journalist to learn how to lay a page out?

    The whole concept of a highly digital modern journalism class with expensive materials in this economic climate seems extremely wasteful and pointless.

    My mind isn't closed on the issue but they'd have to make a REALLY good case for getting that kind of money for that kind of class.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    1. Re:See what your options are by geekoid · · Score: 1

      45M, over 10 years. Infrastructural improvements, system replacements. So,no. It's not a big deal.

      People are acting like the got a 45M dollar bond are just taking it to the apple store for one giant purchase.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:See what your options are by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      for a high school journalism program it is excessive.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    3. Re:See what your options are by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is for the entire school district with over 16,000 students and likely over 1,000 teachers plus administration. The journalism class was just one (relatively weak) example. It may not be the best plan or even a plan that I would approve of but it certainly isn't an unreasonable plan.

    4. Re:See what your options are by geekoid · · Score: 1

      If that is what ti is for, then yes.

      It is not. Journalism just happens to be the example they use in the article.This is for the entire ditrict.

      Yes, just for journalism I would be right their with you.
      I don't just read headlines and then jump into a rage..most of the time~

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  16. Teach a "Build-A-PC" Class in the High School(s) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they're not buying highly engineered computers (like Macs), then IMHO the high school(s) should teach a Build-A-PC class, and set up production to build commodity computers for the rest of the school system. [Just like auto shop used to be a stepping stone to a good job.]

    The district can flex its buying power to stock well priced components.

    And the district might try to get a grant from Intel (or AMD) to set this up as a model (national scale) program.

  17. Misleading headline... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Come on now, there's simply no need for such a misleading headline, suggesting that the school district wants insanely powerful computers to run Google docs. As the summary and full article point out, they want to run other software, including InDesign CS6. Sure, we do not yet know the system requirements of CS6, but do you really think an eMac will run it? Not to mention some of that money is going toward various infrastructure upgrades. They're not trying to buy a $2700 computer for each and every student.

    The tech industry is starting to grow in Ann Arbor. Google has an office there, along with other tech and network companies. I can understand the district wants their schools to be able to provide a decent level of computing power for students who might well be going into those fields in the near future.

    1. Re:Misleading headline... by TheSeventh · · Score: 1

      The first article is about Ann Arbor Community High School, and they are the ones with the eMacs. I doubt Pioneer, Huron, or Skyline are still using ancient computers which were pieces of crap when they were new. So, while AACHS might get some new computers, upgrades could be made for some of the other high schools.

      Also, new servers would be needed, and on top of the actual hardware cost, you have to pay someone to set up all of the machines, install the software (or at least create the master image and set it for automatic distribution), etc. You can't just go out and buy inexpensive Dell machines for $600 a piece and be done with it. Hardware cost is probably the least expensive part of the equation. Software licenses, set up, installation, etc would easily be more than that.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they're not out to get you.
  18. Re:45 million dollars by Xacid · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Screw it, I'll bite.

    Your salary could probably feed the entire country if you use their rates. What's your point? They've already banked a few million from their pirating and are still starving - what's that tell you?

    More aid in that general direction doesn't seem to really help those groups in the long term. There's a lot of "feeding them fish" instead of "teaching them to fish" going on that's creating codependence, not self-reliance.

  19. Slashdot just "jumped the shark". by Cragen · · Score: 0

    I personally don't live anywhere near Wisconsin and really don't think anyone but those who live in that district should have any say, whatsever, what the FLYING FSCK the people of that community spend on their school system. What arrogance. this is my last post to Slashdot. Cya. Unbelievable.

    1. Re:Slashdot just "jumped the shark". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This is a reasonable concern not just locally but globally. Has our educational system lost its ability to spend/request/use tools for the right reasons? Are our educators qualified to make these kinds of decisions? Personally I try to help my local district make some decisions about technology - hopefully other technology experts are doing this too.

      Some side points:
      1 - Check your geography. Ann Arbor is in Michigan - adjacent to Wisconsin but not the same STATE. Obviously education dollars were not spend well wherever you live.
      2- RTFA/RTFQ - There is a bigger question here about how much is your school district spending on technology for education - you arrogant bastard.
      3 - You should be concerned because if this is happening in Ann Arbor, it is probably happening in your backyard too. Unless you don't care where your tax dollars are spent - if that is the case mail a money order to "SPEND A TON on COMPUTERS", c/o Ann Arbor Public School District, 2555 South State Street, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104....

    2. Re:Slashdot just "jumped the shark". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope you are joking, becase Ann Arbor is located in the state of MICHIGAN. I would think most people would know that since there is a college of some notoriety located in the same town. I've never stepped foot in the state and I know that. Anthing you say after that doesn't matter.

    3. Re:Slashdot just "jumped the shark". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I wonder where Slashdot is homed...

    4. Re:Slashdot just "jumped the shark". by uberdilligaff · · Score: 1

      Curiously enough, Ann Arbor is in Michigan, not Wisconsin. Wisconsin is sorta near Michigan, though...

      --
      Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain. --Friederich Schiller
    5. Re:Slashdot just "jumped the shark". by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "this is my last post to Slashdot."
      If I had a nickle every time I read that....I'd have a buck 65.

      You're not leaving and you know it.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    6. Re:Slashdot just "jumped the shark". by c0d3g33k · · Score: 1

      I personally don't live anywhere near Wisconsin ...

      Geography FIAL. Or perhaps just an inadvertent non-sequitor.

      Ann Arbor is in Michigan. In the corner of the state farthest away from Wisconsin.

      ... and really don't think anyone but those who live in that district should have any say, whatsever, what the FLYING FSCK the people of that community spend on their school system.

      Ok, agreed. But perhaps learning about what happens in other school districts can prepare people for similar situations in their own?

      What arrogance. this is my last post to Slashdot. Cya. Unbelievable.

      So long. Thanks for all the ghoti.

    7. Re:Slashdot just "jumped the shark". by TheSeventh · · Score: 1

      Well, I for one, know that you will be missed. Although I'm not sure what Wisconsin has to do with Ann Arbor, which is in a different state, I know that a lot of people will agree that only people in Wisconsin should have any say on what happens in AA.

      IIRC, didn't I read something about Ann Arbor and Slashdot having some sort of relationship? Friends, FWB, Exes, or something like that?

      --
      Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they're not out to get you.
    8. Re:Slashdot just "jumped the shark". by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      I, on the other hand, used to live in Racine County Wisconsin, and despite paying ridiculous property tax rates the school systems were crap. I paid 2% of my homes value every year in taxes, which is even higher than DuPage county, Illinois (1.67%), even though that county is often touted as having the highest property tax rates. Yest, the schools sucked. Standardized scores sucked, the bus system sucked, the teachers were paid less than national average. There was no money for band, sports or activities. The money was clearly all going into somebodies pocket.
      I still think that people who didn't live anywhere near there are allowed to have a say. Personally, I think $45 million is way too high for a computer overhaul in a public school. That is $2700 per student in the district, and probably less than 1/3 of the students in the district will end up in a class in which they need to use a computer. There are districts that only spend $5,000 for the whole budget per student, not just on the computer allotment.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    9. Re:Slashdot just "jumped the shark". by TheSeventh · · Score: 1

      Ann Arbor property taxes are currently about 2.2876% of property value per year. This includes lots of money for Garbage Collection, State ED Tax, the Public Library, Mass Transit, and the Community College. Currently I'm already paying about $950 a year for the Ann Arbor public schools, and that doesn't include the State ED Tax.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they're not out to get you.
  20. These are 50-pound 10-year-old boat anchors by Barbara,+not+Barbie · · Score: 1

    You couldn't GIVE them away today. You would literally have to pay someone to come and dispose of them as eWaste.

    We're not talking cutting edge - we're talking 40 gig hard drives, 128 meg of ram, 16" viewable area CRTs. Some of them are still only usb 1.

    Would it be worth upgrading them? Not really - even if you did stuff 2 gig into them, it can only use 1 - and that old-style slow ram is getting expensive.

    --
    Let's call it what it is, Anti-Social Media.
    1. Re:These are 50-pound 10-year-old boat anchors by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      What shame. Maybe they should have bought PCs instead. They may have run slow, but at least they would be able to work with Google Docs. Heck a 6 year old PC is still perfectly usable. I just upgraded a 9 year old computer last year. It still did everything I needed it to do, even ran games pretty fast. The only reason I upgraded was because it had developed a habit of blue screening, and hours spent trying to fix the problem only resulted in Microsoft telling me that my version of Windows which had been Genuine for the last 9 years was no longer Genuine.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    2. Re:These are 50-pound 10-year-old boat anchors by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      The same is true for most Macs - the one I am using right now is from 2006 and it has a Core 2 Duo and can easily handle things like Google Docs. It's getting a little long in the tooth in terms of the GPU, but for the bulk of the things I do with it it is absolutely fine.

      These eMacs were budget (and out of date) machines even back then - they are using PPC G4 chips and CRT screens, even after the rest of the Mac line had gone first to G5 PPC and then to Intel. That doesn't mean all Macs of that era are quite so obsolete.

      Although, even if they *had* bought PCs, there is still going to be a limitation to upgrading them unless you swap out the motherboard, and at that point you might as well buy a new machine.

  21. $45 million? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are due for an upgrade if they are still using emac but they should be able to do it for 1/2 or 1/3 of that price.

  22. Truth is about eMacs .... by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    They were Apple's very last system to use a standard CRT monitor instead of a flat panel. That alone relegates them to the realm of "antiquated hardware" in many people's eyes, no matter what else they're capable of doing.

    I'd venture to say the Apple eMac is generally looked upon as the least desirable Mac Apple released ever since the dawn of OS X. Not sure that's really a fair assessment -- but it's the reality of the situation.
     

  23. Overbuying by Phoenix666 · · Score: 2

    There are so many factors in the state of the education system, it's hard to pick any one of them as the keystone. A bajillion dollars is not enough to substitute for parents who don't participate in their kids' education. A bajillion dollars is not enough to correct a society who tells kids it's more important to be a football star than learn math. A bajillion dollars won't make a dent in a stodgy, horribly outdated pedagogical culture that is protected and perpetuated by entrenched interests (teacher's unions, colleges offering degrees in education, textbook publishers, testing companies, etc etc). A bajillion dollars won't improve the performance of obese kids too whacked out on high-fructose corn syrup, junk food, and ritalin to pay attention.

    It is true that it is hard to teach a computer class without computers. It is not true that you cannot teach a computer class with old computers. It is not true that you cannot teach a computer class without expensive computers.

    In the end putting outsized requests like this in sounds like the timeless bureaucratic game of, grow your budget with ridiculous requests to SAVE THE CHILDREN, then point out how big the budget is that you're now managing, and cry about how much more work it is to manage that large budget and how you can't possibly handle it without a 25% increase in the size of your staff and a 25% bump in your pay.

    If /.'s minds can come up with an effective way to unwind that dynamic (and, no, crying 'small government' doesn't and hasn't worked because they just grow different parts of the government, not shrink the total), then it will have performed a greater boon for mankind and done more for its advancement than nearly any other achievement in human history.

    --
    Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
    1. Re:Overbuying by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      It is not true that you cannot teach a computer class without expensive computers.
      Agreed. My High School had about $12,000 worth of computers. My school district is about the same size as the one in question. Now granted, this was just the one school, so if you put the same amount of technology into all the public schools in my district, you are probably talking about close to $200,000. A factor of about 200 difference from the Ann Arbor proposal.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  24. Normal operating procedure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I worked for a college and when ordering things you need to order top of the line at the time because you will be stuck with it for years till you can get money to replace it. Also you need to make up things to prove you need it since everyone penny pinches regardless of how the economy is going. It's a dog eat dog world out there. Although if they teach a build a pc in high schools they could cheaply build windows systems, oh wait they are on macs, so scratch that...

  25. Seriously!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i have volunteered for a small inner city private school who's tech budget is nearly $0 more likely in the negative. All computer equipment is 4yr old plus, all wonderfully donated form wealthy private schools after they have run their 4yr + course with them. Yes we have eMacs. It's more about understanding what you have and using it as an aid to teachers and teaching. While here our kids learn and improve greatly compared state and national public school average, and are on par or better than the private independent schools. I'm not saying i wouldn't love to have new computers, i think the money is better spent on teachers and teaching.

  26. AAPS Computers Are Old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I graduated from AAPS (Ann Arbor Public Schools) in 2008. Back then the computers could barely get on the Internet. AAPS spends a ton of money on all sorts of things, but gets the cheapest computers they can find.

  27. Academy Program by g0bshiTe · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My daughters in the Academy Program, they don't have eMacs, or the latest iGadget her school, they have 4 year old computer systems that run whatever they need perfectly well. The do have the next to latest edition of Office, but the school allows projects to be turned in that were done in Open Source formats as well, and this is for one of the top rated public schools within 100 miles.

    This seems more like someone that is anti-apple and just wants the latest and greatest gadgets to play with. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that some of that software found it's way onto the teachers' home computers as well, "we have to know how to use it to teach the children".

    --
    I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
    1. Re:Academy Program by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      Well, the eMac is a PowerPC G4 machine with a CRT screen. This isn't just "we want faster computers! wah!" it's "we really need to get computers with Intel CPUs in them". The 2006 eMac was obsolete when it was new.

      Whether they buy a fleet of new Windows boxes or new Macs, the fact of the matter is they *do* need to get something newer than what they have if they're going to be able to use them effectively with things like Google Docs and CS5/CS6 etc.

    2. Re:Academy Program by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As noted above, eMacs are hardly "the latest iGadget" and even the newest is far older than 4 years at this point.

    3. Re:Academy Program by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The eMacs are 6 years old. This isn't about Mac vs. PC, this is about machines that are so old, they are probably suffering at least complete failures every month, and need to be replaced immediately.

    4. Re:Academy Program by armanox · · Score: 1

      Having worked with eMacs and being familiar with their specs, I'm sure it's pretty miserable to work with (and doesn't support semi-modern software). These compare to 700-1GHz Pentium III with 128MB RAM - they were the cheap Apple computers of 7+ years ago. Replacing them is a matter of wanting to teach relevavnt technology, not just "ooo shiny".

      --
      I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
    5. Re:Academy Program by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The youngest eMacs are 6 years old... your daughter has far more up to date tech than these kids.

      The bond issue budgets about $150/kid in tech costs over the next 10 years, assuming population levels and inflation remain stable. That's $150/kid, not $150 to spend on each kid. Some of that money has to go towards classroom computers for teachers. Believe it or not, it's really hard to teach if you don't have a modern version of word in which to design tests, report grades with, etc. 45 for ten years doesn't really give them a lot of money to waste.

      Also, it's highly unlikely that the software licenses are touched by anyone outside of the school's IT staff. That means that the district's electronic use policy -- which is publicly available via sunshine laws in most states if you care to do research before making baseless accusations -- will cover stuff like installing district software on teachers' home computers. AFAIK, this type of activity is strictly forbidden by most policies out there.

    6. Re:Academy Program by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are an idiot.

    7. Re:Academy Program by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

      Then replace them with powerful low cost computers. Apple doesnt make any of those.

      Buying apple products for a school is a waste of money. Kids and teachers arent in need of retail technology therapy purchasing to help their self image.

      Shoot, buy cheap components by the box full and get the older kids to construct the computers and teach the younger kids how to use them. Load them up with linux and windows. You know, the stuff they'll actually be using at work and most likely be buying for their home?

    8. Re:Academy Program by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      they are probably suffering at least complete failures every month

      Actually, Macs hold up quite well against time. I don't expect that the eMacs are having any trouble at all with stability.

      I do however, expect that they're insufficient to the tasks involved, and need to be replaced.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    9. Re:Academy Program by armanox · · Score: 1

      I know I only skimmed the articles, but I don't recall them saying they were going to buy new Apple computers. I am not against them using Linux (and can see using Windows, despite personal opinion). My point was merely that the eMacs are quite dated.

      --
      I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
    10. Re:Academy Program by Pope · · Score: 1

      Sure. Who'll support an entire district's load of cheap, crappy machines?

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    11. Re:Academy Program by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

      The same guy that'd support the overpriced, crappy apple machines.

    12. Re:Academy Program by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

      Ah, I just presumed that in spending $2700 per student that Apple products had to be involved. Because I could buy a desktop pc, a laptop, a tablet and a phone, all pretty decent stuff, and still have money leftover from $2700. In fact, I'd still have half of it.

      But if they were mac products, I could see eating all of that on one desktop.

    13. Re:Academy Program by micheas · · Score: 1

      I have found that macs purchased in the last four years to hold up less well than macs purchased fourteen years ago.

      (I know, four data points is barely statistically significant, but that has been my experience.)

    14. Re:Academy Program by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      I have found that macs purchased in the last four years to hold up less well than macs purchased fourteen years ago.

      (I know, four data points is barely statistically significant, but that has been my experience.)

      I can buy that the quality has gone down in recent years. Especially since they switched away from PowerPC...

      But then, I have a soft spot for esoteric technologies...

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
  28. I live in Ann Arbor... by macwhizkid · · Score: 5, Informative

    I grew up and now work in Ann Arbor. Posting as anonymous, for obvious reasons. First, some background. Ann Arbor Public Schools has become a reference model for how not to run a school district. The district routinely has nationwide searches at great expense to find a new superintendent, simply because (1) the average tenure of a superintendent in Michigan is less than two years and (2) none of them are stupid enough to come to a district as dysfunctional as Ann Arbor.

    The current superintendent came from a rural district in Pennsylvania, and was old enough to actually retire from her old district to take the job here. But hell, at least she was available.

    The tech crisis is at least real. Those really are eMacs being used in the classrooms... yes, the eMac that Apple stopped making in 2005. The district has a budget deficit of $14 million, due to a perfect storm of decreasing state funding (Michigan is not exactly a bastion of tax revenue), decreasing local property values, and fewer students (the #1 local tax payer and #2 employer, Pfizer, pulled out in 2007).

    The odd thing is, the district is, by many measures, not bad. But that's due primarily to high student achievement due to the relatively educated population (over 70% of Ann Arbor residents have a 4-year degree or more). Meanwhile, we have high schools that are too big, middle schools that are a disaster, and elementary schools that are actually OK (but not great). On a side note, did I mention that my father teaches for AAPS, and I went to private school? Yeah...

    1. Re:I live in Ann Arbor... by macwhizkid · · Score: 2

      haha, oops... So... about that "anonymous" part... guess it's time to change my /. username again...

    2. Re:I live in Ann Arbor... by Nimey · · Score: 1

      Why, are you ashamed of what you posted? Is it somewhat less than the whole truth?

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    3. Re:I live in Ann Arbor... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ha!
      But nothing wrong with what you posted.

    4. Re:I live in Ann Arbor... by vmerc · · Score: 2

      I also live in Ann arbor and I have a child in high school there. The school system leaves a lot to be desired but not once have I heard my child or anyone else complain about the technology. The schools asking for more money is asinine. They get all of the regular income including already ridiculously high school taxes of any given school district plus they get a nice windfall for every home game for the UofM football team. The high school is across from the stadium and they sell parking in the monstrous field in front of the school at about $50 per spot for tailgating and even more for RV parking. The field is filled every game. Even the Appalachian state game.

  29. Obvious teabagger troll is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "I don't want my taxes raised to pay for more schools, and OH LOOK, they're asking for new hardware for a JOURNALISM class!!! Those 10-year old eMacs are good enough!

  30. 4,500 PCs for 16,000 students? by msobkow · · Score: 1

    At $1000 per machine, that would be 4,500 PCs in their budget. One machine for every 4 students.

    At $500 per machine, a reasonable price for such a bulk-volume purchase, that would be 9,000 PCs, or one machine for every 2 students.

    Methinks that kind of money would be better spent on hiring better TEACHERS than buying equipment.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    1. Re:4,500 PCs for 16,000 students? by bwohlgemuth · · Score: 1

      Schools don't buy at $500/machine prices. They buy at $1k+/machine prices....I've seen their "discounts" and it's usually pretty appalling. I was invited by my local school corporation to buy at their "discounted" rate which was (for a similarly specced machine) 40% above sale prices.

      But they spun it as a 50% off of "LIST" price....

      I have seen school districts want to build their own fiber infrastructure, build 100MBit microwave feeds between buildings, and demand Cisco TelePresence in every school. And when you look at port utilization, it's around 1%avg/3%peak. I also doubt that the current IT budget hasn't been replacing computers for the past five years as they breakdown, etc.

      This is a bond issue, not a budget issue. They want to specially finance $45 million into a district of 17k kids to "build for the future".

      --
      Flamebait .sig for sale, low mileage, one owner only.
      Serious inquiries only.
    2. Re:4,500 PCs for 16,000 students? by msobkow · · Score: 2

      Any organization which approves a $1000+ budget for a bulk purchase of machines in this day and age should be fired and investigated to find out how they got their kickbacks from the winning vendor.

      Because you can go to Dell, Lenovo, HP-Compaq, and even Apple and get machines in such quantities for FAR less than $1000/pop.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    3. Re:4,500 PCs for 16,000 students? by bwohlgemuth · · Score: 1

      Your going to need a whole lotta lawyers. :-)

      --
      Flamebait .sig for sale, low mileage, one owner only.
      Serious inquiries only.
    4. Re:4,500 PCs for 16,000 students? by pla · · Score: 1

      At $1000 per machine, that would be 4,500 PCs in their budget. One machine for every 4 students.

      You missed a zero. Try 45,000PCs for 16000 students. Though as others have pointed out, only about half of that will go to PCs - So a "mere" 22,500 PCs for 16000 students.

      And the other half will go to some form of nebulous "infrastructure" upgrades - The only part of this scam that sounds even vaguely legit (still on the high side, but at least in the right ballpark).

      My take on this - Someone's brother-in-law will make a fortune from this.

    5. Re:4,500 PCs for 16,000 students? by ducomputergeek · · Score: 1

      What's the cost of the machines when you factor in both hardware AND software?

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    6. Re:4,500 PCs for 16,000 students? by msobkow · · Score: 1

      And what software are you planning to install to run the web applications described?

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  31. 1st world problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    where I come from some students are lucky if they have a roof over their heads when in class.....

  32. Michigan Teacher Weighs In by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    As a Computer Science teacher from Michigan, I am disappointed by the lack of resourcefulness exhibited by the Ann Arbor school administrators. Currently, I am in a room filled with equipment from:

    Selfridge ANGB
    U.S. Navy
    Corporations
    Universities
    Many local sources

    All of this equipment was acquired for FREE. All that I have had to occasionally pay is shipping. The lowest end equipment that I have is P4 2.8Ghz. We run Untangle as an Internet gateway through Comcast for FREE. I suggest that Ann Arbor Schools look to the following to reduce their costs:

    U of M
    http://computersforlearning.gov/
    Meijer
    etc.

    There is a trust issue here. Once the public knows that the schools are working hard to rein in costs, then they can reasonably ask for what they need. A tech wish list without due diligence and fiduciary constraint is just asking to be flamed.

    1. Re:Michigan Teacher Weighs In by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am curious... How big is your district? By that I mean, how many students, how many staff, how many buildings, and how many computers is your district comprised of?

    2. Re:Michigan Teacher Weighs In by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really! Thank you for the info, and being on the ground fighting. Best of luck with your district.

  33. Eating the seed corn by Wilf_Brim · · Score: 2

    I don't find it unreasonable that computers made in 2006 (which were underpowered at the time) are due for a replacement. There are reasons (for and against) to pay the Apple tax to get their hardware. That is completely secondary to the main issue.The problem I have is using bond money for this expense. The real issue here is the horrible mismangement that led to the need for a bond issue to replace depreciable assets. Bonds are supposed to be for capital improvements. This means new schools, major rennovations or upgrades. Bond money is not supposed to be used for rountine repair, replacment, or basic expsenses. Building a new wing for [whatever reader thinks is worthwhile] is good. Paying for teacher salaries with bonds is bad. I consider this to be the same as using bond money to buy new books. Book are a depreciable short term asset that need frequent replacement: they should not be considered a capital expense. Likewise computers.

  34. My kid is enrolled in AAPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have a child enrolled at an elementary school in the AAPS school district. Being an IT enthusiast myself, I am all for having better machines. (Quite in fact, I helped to INSTALL their eMacs about 4 or 5 years ago). Having machines as old as eMacs that were denounced by Apple themselves, I believe this is a worth investment of my tax dollars, AND would only benefit my child, and every other child, in the school district.

  35. xp is older os the new mac come with 10.7 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    xp is older os the new mac come with 10.7.

    For the pc try running CS 5 on a system with 7 and only 2gb ram.

  36. Maybe they should ask JP Morgan Chase? by cashman73 · · Score: 1

    After all, the company probably needs to make a big donation to make up for CEO Jamie Dimon's assertions that journalists make too much money,. . .

  37. Re:Teach a "Build-A-PC" Class in the High School(s by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

    And who is going to support these "changing every week because we can't source the same components this month that we did last month" monstrosities built with little to no quality control by teenagers in training? Who's going to make sure that they have consistent software loads when an image is good for for all of a month before a new one has to be made due to significant hardware change?

    Also, have you ever done work in a build factory? Back in the day when I was first getting into this industry, my first job was doing tech support for an early Dell/Gateway competitor. Back when there were dozens of mom and pop operations doing mail order whitebox systems. As part of my "training" I spent a week on the line building computers. Talk about useless. Once you see how motherboards screw in, how you slide in PCI cards (actually they were ISA and PCI at the time), how you seat CPUs and RAM; well, you've seen it. Do it once it's an experience, two or three times it's a novelty. After the fourth time you've learned all you need to. And you need thousands of computers for a school district. Either every kid builds a few, or a small number of kids who take the wrong elective become slave labor.

    Meanwhile, what have they been "trained" for? Building PCs in industry is largely an automated process now, or done by cheap Chinese workers for a dollar an hour. There's no "good jobs" in building PCs. There's money to made as a skilled IT person or a development engineer, but building computers isn't even 2% of what people like that do. The only computer I've built in the last 10 years is the one I use at home. Very occasionally I put in a PCI card or add RAM to a box, but there's not really much "skill" there. You can't learn valuable IT or programming skills when your class is tasked with providing the school system 1000 computers this year either.

    --
    I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
  38. Another point of view by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As an IT Director in a 5000 Child Public School District, I can tell you that there is probably a lot more going on than what you are seeing. While doubting the claims for new computers because we don't know CS6 specs is small thinking, there is some question about the 45M.
      Here, we published a line item cost prediction for every penny of the 2.1M we asked for. Everything on the list was a legitimate need, including PC's that at first glance would look like using a hammer for a fly swatter. We've implemented a 20%, per year, computer replacement plan which if you do your math makes us plan computers out to five years. You're darn right we're going to buy the biggest bangs our bucks can buy.
    We implemented an a,b,g,n wireless network placed on top of a 20GB-10GB-1GB wired network and brought online a multicast video server that serves 5 HD channels on top of non-HD to every classroom in the district which had a HD DLP projector and multi-purpose white-board/screen installed. Every classroom is now a freeking movie theater! (The interactive white board is a necessity in today's classrooms.)
      There was more, but I gave you the highlights. I believe they must have quite a ways to go to bring their infrastructure up to the demands that modern technology puts on us. Put a $1,000 computer on a T1? THAT would be irresponsible!
      Take a deeper look and criticize what should be instead of what you THINK is going on. I went through more than one board meeting having to explain our goals and I am sure that the people in this district have too. While I think 45M is a little on the high side, I have to say that I don't know all the details to condemn it.

  39. Break it down per student per year by Intelopment · · Score: 1

    I sat on a school board (until last year) and ran the Technology subcommittee. We budgeted and spent about $45/student/year on technology. I think this was reasonable and provided a complete computer classroom used by every student every year teaching them solid computer skills, along with equipping classrooms with reasonable computer and AV equipment. Each teacher got their own laptop replaced every 3 years. In this Ann Arbor situation assuming a 5 year lifecycle to IT equipment. $45M over 5 years over 16440 students, works out to be $547/student/year. In my experience this is absurdly high. I pulled it off for $45/student, why do they need $547/student? A closer review is required before sent to the voters.

  40. Seems a little bad accounting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This isn't by student. Why? Because they aren't planning on spending that much every year, or for every new student.

    They're investing that much, and how long will it last? Maybe a year for some, maybe two for others, maybe 10 years for some investments.

    Your accounting would be much better if you examined it per student hour of instruction.

    That would be something close to a relevant examination of the costs.

  41. Technology doesnt improve education by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

    I've yet to see a well done study that shows that technology of any kind advances education. Besides enormous hardware and software costs, the planning, architecture, design and implementation of a strategy that properly integrates the technology into the lesson planning is complicated, expensive, and frankly requires more smarts than the average school IT guy can muster.

    A great example of stupid school spending is happening in California schools all over the state right now. We're in the middle of a huge budget crunch. The governor plans to cut all school transportation. Our school superintendent says we'll be cutting PE and library headcount to zero soon. We're laying off teachers and class sizes are ballooning.

    Whats the solution you say? Buy ipads for every class room! A running program right now is equipping all California class rooms with 5 ipads! Thats approximately $100K per school.

    Why arent the ipads helping? First off, the schools break up the classes into reading groups. As far as I know, none of the schools in CA have 5 kids per reading group, ours has six. So when I volunteer, one kid has to wait for the other 5 to finish with the ipads, then they can go. The kids have to log into an account with a long complex user name and password, for security you know. Of course they cant remember it. The kids also easily get out of the testing applications and start playing games.

    The mechanics are thus: we read the book and then answer a quiz on the ipad, which gives a score. That information then has to be transcribed onto paper because its not integrated into the other school education systems, and then re-entered elsewhere.

    So the bottom line is that our nice relatively calm reading courses are now filled with "I dont wanna be the one who has to wait", half my time is spent fixing technical shenanigans, and the outcome is everyone doing the teaching is working harder for a lesser outcome.

    So how about we hire teachers, buy books, if we're going to buy tablets buy 25 of the $69 or $99 ones and outfit it with apps that actually make life easier so every kid in the class has one? Maybe when the economy is flush and we have more money than we know what to do with, then we can buy overpriced apple do-dads for a small number of kids.

    The first argument I get on bringing up the stupidity of this whole thing is that these are allegedly donated. Fine. Then one of the hundreds of education and political people involved with that size donation should have educated the donor on how he or she was wasting an awful lot of money on something that would actually be a negative as far as education of the children go. But I dont think they'd give a crap. Someone with a big heart and no understanding of education thought you could just throw ipads out there like Johnny Appleseed and the kids would just get smarter. Just like the ads say. Buy an ipad and your kid will instantly become a creative genius and learn automatically!

    Ehh...no.

  42. I have to agree... by klubar · · Score: 1

    The e-Macs are really long in the tooth...modern software will not run these machines (even Firefox 4... and FF is now up to something like 10). The OS is no longer supported (Macs have a very short OS support lifetime). I don't think CS5 runs on PowerPC. The CRT monitors are power, space and A/C hogs. The harddrives are about to go. No the request for new machines isn't unreasonable....Whether to replace with Macs or PCs is another discussion.

  43. You complain about CRTs? by oneiros27 · · Score: 1

    It's a freaking CRT screen. A 1280x960 CRT screen. I would absolutely hate trying to do graphics work on one of them.

    I can see complaining about the pixel count -- that's comparable to many laptops these days. But complaining about it being a CRT? I'd rather have a CRT for serious graphics works with all other things being equal. And until Apple went to the glass-front LCD screens, I wouldn't have put an LCD in a classroom as they're so obnoxious to keep fingerprints off 'em.

    If you're going to complain about CRTs, at least complain about the power consumption vs. LCDs with LED backlighting.

    What's going to be the killer is that if they have to upgrade the hardware, odds are they haven't upgraded software in years ... and there's no Rosetta in 10.7, so they can't run PPC software on the latest released OS and I don't know how easy it is to put 10.6 on the current generation of hardware.

    --
    Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
    1. Re:You complain about CRTs? by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

      Can't run 10.6 on eMac. Highest version that will run is 10.5 Leopard which Apple no longer sells.

      --
      http://www.acetonestudio.com
    2. Re:You complain about CRTs? by toddestan · · Score: 1

      You have to remember though, that these are eMacs. Apple built them as cheaply as possible, and that includes the screen too. Since the screen is built into the computer, it's not like you can just replace the screen with a LCD, or even one of the nicer CRTs that people seemingly can't give away nowadays.

  44. Can you say, "Blow us"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Spoiled liberals who want every one to pay for their rich lifestyle. Everyone, get on your knees and worship the self-indulged bastards and bitches.

  45. What are tech outlays like in the public schools.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...where I live?

    Central Memphis, East High School, $0

    A handful of 5-year-old Dells for 1300 students.

    Computer literacy education in our poorest schools here is non-existent.

    Students in Costa fucking Rica has better computer literacy than here.

  46. Publish what they want and why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From what I can see they have not been too open about exactly what they will run, how many machines etc.

    Publish the full specs in the open, then ask for submissions, then get the price. Here they have the cart before the horse.

    ALL ORANISATIONS WITH PUBLIC MONEY - EXCEPT DEFENCE SHOULD HAVE EVERY INVOICE PUBLISHED IN DETAIL

  47. Always good to replace Macs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Replacing Macs is a good idea for educational institutions. I've seen too many a class where the all the fancy new Apple computers decided not to boot up because Apple mistakenly revoked some license (yes, you read that right - Apple remotely disabled the entire computer lab). It results in several missed classes while IT spends all day on the phone convincing Apple to stop remotely disabling their rightfully purchased computers.

  48. Re:45 million dollars by Shimbo · · Score: 2

    There's a lot of "feeding them fish" instead of "teaching them to fish" going on that's creating codependence, not self-reliance.

    Whilst I largely agree with you, it's an unfortunate choice of metaphor, since overfishing by foreign trawlers is often cited as one of the things that has made Somalia less self-reliant.

  49. Your don't need much by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

    Lets see wordpress doesn't need much power, Google Docs is a waste of time, just use Libra Office, Linux is free and so is the Gimp so just get good solid computers and install Linux, I just saved 40 Million.

  50. eMacs! by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

    Discontinued 6 years ago. Have PPC not Intel CPU and are therefore are pretty much obsolete. Can't run any up to date browsers and a lot of software. So, yes, they need to replace these computers.

    --
    http://www.acetonestudio.com
  51. Re:45 million dollars by Xacid · · Score: 1

    Touche`!

  52. Why not have them maintain the school busses? by zerofoo · · Score: 1

    Why not have the shop kids maintain the district school busses? You know, oil changes, transmission flushes, brake jobs...etc....by the way, the kids need those very same busses to get to school.

    Learning on production infrastructure is not a wise operational decision.

    Kids and teachers in schools have their own jobs to do. Teachers are expected to teach, students are expected to learn - those are their jobs. We, the taxpayers of society, are responsible for giving them the facilities and infrastructure to do both. Expecting students and teachers to build and maintain that infrastructure while trying to learn is nothing more than slave labor.

    If I was hired at a company to do a job unrelated to IT, I would be pretty upset if I had to roll my own IT stuff to get my real job done. Apart from being unfair to the employee, it's a stupidly inefficient way to operate any business or organization.

    -ted

  53. Ask and you shall receive.... by rullywowr · · Score: 1

    nothing close to what you asked for. Asking for anything in the public sector is much like negotiating a salary, or selling an item: Ask for the world, your original offer will be cut back to a percentage. Of course the instructor knows he doesn't need supercomputers to run software X...he just knows that if he aims high, he will get closer to what he knows he needs.

  54. I work in Ann Arbor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't want to pay taxes on this. Having taken Journalism courses in college, I'm sure they don't need this stuff. Newspapers are dead and TV journalism equates to writing articles in a certain way and having some guy spit them out. Buy some cheap video cameras and let them get new but cheap PCs.

    InDesign means they want to use the antiquated newspaper angle and that is dead. In fact, the newspaper went out of business in Ann Arbor. AnnArbor.com doesn't need real journalists so there's no point.

  55. Bonds are a political game: My District by spopepro · · Score: 1

    Bonds are voter approved which means that you have to play politics. Our district needed to make structural improvements on a few of our campuses that hadn't been touched in 50 years. We also needed to overhaul our network infrastructure, especially with a couple of our sites still communicating with the data center over T1. However, buildings and network/data center improvements are not sexy. Not one bit. So we also put interactive whiteboards, doc cams and projectors in every classroom. The Interactive classroom tech came out to about $3 million. It was a $175 million bond. Guess what all the publicity/propaganda was focused on.

  56. So you're all really bad at story problems? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is ridiculous. This is like a local library asking for $2 million to replace its computers. "Well, we service a population of 60,000, so that's only spending $33.33 per computer! It's a bargain!" the librarian says -- and no one seems to notice what's wrong with that equation?

  57. Yes. by drolli · · Score: 1

    I expect a graduate of a specialized, applied university art to be able to handle the up-to date tools.

    a few thousand dollar Student is not much if this happens only every few years. Tutorial classes and supervision are most likely more expensive.

  58. Getting rid of mac's is happening alot to save $$ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My company just removed 4,000 mac computers and iphone's from the San Diego Unified School District. They are standardizing on Android and windows for ease of management and cost savings. Eliminating the 2 "mac specialists" saved them $110k/year and another $100k/year was saved by removing the mac computers and not having to use crywolf or go to the mac store every time a computer breaks. Dell comes onsite to any of our hundreds of schools.

  59. Blatant spending by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've a relative who is a teacher in the great state of Georgia. She was told she HAD to spend the rest of her tech money allowance for they 'may not get it in the future'. So, she went and bought a nice large screen LCD television for the class room....this was two years ago, and they've never used it, just had to spend the money.