Is It Time For Hacker Scouts?

ptorrone writes "MAKE Magazine asks: is it 'Time For Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts 2.0?' What might the future of education be like if it were based on online & earned skill badges, and what could the future of traditional organizations for kids, like the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, be like in a very modern, tech-savvy world? Social networks and the maker movement are the perfect intersection of where the kids of today are, but we don't see 'leaderboards' for skills yet; we only see them for video games. Is it time for Hacker Scouts?"

Comments

Badges

[fph il quozientatore]

You got the First Post badge!

Re:Badges

[sconeu]

Badges? We don't got no badges! We don't need no steenkin' badges!

Re:Badges

[Ken_g6]

Badges? We don't got no badges! We don't need no steenkin' badges!

Of course not. We just need achievements.

Re:Badges

[Anonymous Coward]

I meant to mod this funny, but hit "overrated" instead. Oh well, it is actually funny in an overrated way...

Re:Badges

[ArundelCastle]

/=\ Help an Old Lady Across the Information Superhighway /=\

"No Gramma don't click the red button... No don't click Confirm, that warning is lying to you."
"No mom it's in the menu bar. The menu. At the top. Of the screen... Just let me remote in..."
"Left-click. With the mouse. What? How big is the button? No, use the button on the top of the mouse, not the side."

I would've earned every damn one of those badges. >_

Re:Badges

[dutchwhizzman]

Badger Badger Badger!

Re:Badges

[citizenr]

"No Gramma don't click the red button... No don't click Confirm, that warning is lying to you."
"No mom it's in the menu bar. The menu. At the top. Of the screen... Just let me remote in..."
"Left-click. With the mouse. What? How big is the button? No, use the button on the top of the mouse, not the side."

I used to do that, now that I am over 30 I just tell people they are too stupid to use computers.

Re:Badges

[GuldKalle]

We can't stop here, this is badge country.

Re:Badges

[drinkypoo]

I used to do that, now that I am over 30 I just tell people they are too stupid to use computers.

When people demonstrate a lack of basic computer skills, like clicking on buttons, I put them into the self-guided tour that explains how to use the operating system, and walk away.

Obviously I don't do this when I'm paid to explain these things, but life is too short to teach people how to use a mouse for free.

A Hacker is

[Anonymous Coward]

untrustworthy, disloyal, surly,
angry, rude, mean,
obstinant, cranky, greedy,
anonymous, smelly, irreverent

Re:A Hacker is

[medcalf]

OK, that made me laugh out loud.

Re:A Hacker is

[Qubit]

Drink if you get the reference.

Drink twice if you still remember the original by heart.

(and while you're at it, take another drink for all your bros kicked out of the BSA for religious/orientation reasons)

Re:A Hacker is

[Anonymous Coward]

Trustworthy

Loyal

Helpful

Friendly

Courteous

Kind

Obedient

Cheerful

Thrifty

Brave

Clean

Reverent

Re:A Hacker is

[Anonymous Coward]

Done done and done. That was funny as hell..

Re:A Hacker is

[Anonymous Coward]

(and while you're at it, take another drink for all your bros kicked out of the BSA for religious/orientation reasons)

I don't know any of those, but I just employed a little wordplay to get around the religious bit, all the way through to Eagle.

I appreciate that it's in conflict with some of the basic tenants of good character to effectively lie, or at least circumvent the issue, but religion was never really a big deal in scouting where I grew up and the program was, in all other ways, very worth an occasional, "well... defacto atheist isn't necessarily the same as strict atheism". That's enough to keep anyone from pressing the issue.

I also occasionally act like I love my job on days when I'd rather be backpacking. So maybe "pick your battles" was a valuable life lesson.

Re:A Hacker is

[maxwell demon]

(and while you're at it, take another drink for all your bros kicked out of the BSA for religious/orientation reasons)

Kicked out of the BSA? Are scouts now also responsible for checking software licenses?

Headline with a question mark ==

[Anonymous Coward]

no.

What a Pedobear patch ?

[Anonymous Coward]

PedoBear

Is it time?

[YrWrstNtmr]

Yes, probably. Let's roll some tech into it.
But do NOT lose the outdoor aspect. Camping, etc. Far, far too many kids have no clue what the "big green room with the blue and white ceiling" looks and smells like.

Re:Is it time?

[Hatta]

The funny thing is, I remember computer camps being common in the 80s. Somehow as computers got more popular, computer camps got less so.

Re:Is it time?

[YrWrstNtmr]

Somehow as computers got more popular, computer camps got less so.

They became appliances. Just like a TV, dishwasher, telephone. It's there in the house, it mostly works, everyone has one. Nothing special.

Re:Is it time?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

But do NOT lose the outdoor aspect. Camping, etc. Far, far too many kids have no clue what the "big green room with the blue and white ceiling" looks and smells like.

Isn't that what the Occupy movement is for . . . ?

In the case of cities, especially the smell part.

Re:Is it time?

[shadowrat]

i loved my summer computer camp. I would hang out all day in that room full of apple IIs. Times were different back then though. There was only one guy in my class who had one at home. I only owned 2 floppies (that i modded to make double sided with a hole punch).

Re:Is it time?

[wbr1]

The funny thing is, I remember computer camps being common in the 80s. Somehow as computers got more popular, computer camps got less so.

That is because those camps were designed to get the geeks like us out of the picture for the summer. Now everyone is a geek.

Re:Is it time?

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot would have been one of the last places I'd expect to find someone who really believed that...

Re:Is it time?

[masmullin]

We need more dishwasher camps too.

Re:Is it time?

[lightknight]

Yes, I've seen that kind of 'appliance' thinking in action.

That's why we have a weird schism. One generation which bankrupted us and couldn't fix a toaster to save their lives, another which could write a fair number of new OSs but is hamstrung on the financial issue, and another generation immediately thereafter which has acquired both generation's mistakes and understands neither finances nor technology. W00F!

Re:Is it time?

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't those the Girl Scout's camps?

Re:Is it time?

[lightknight]

The Occupy movement, among other things, (and I will put this charitably) is decrying the lack of employment; their argument appears to be that it's not for lack of want that they are unemployed, but for lack of employment opportunities that they are so. Which arguably, when tied in with the whole 'Wall St. Bailout' thing kind of make sense, in an interpretation of capitalism (the more perfect version of) -> that is, the capital that was 'acquired' from the taxpayer would have, if it had followed the initially projected course (pre-acquisition), annihilated the various financial firms that had their hands caught in the proverbial cookie jar, and, in their deaths (via creative destruction), spawned a whole bunch of new firms / opportunities (to take their places) which these people would have sought gainful employment with (and, arguably, would have preferential access to, as their resumes would not be dirtied with having been at the helm of the previous disaster) -> the firms, of course, would not be strictly financial, but perhaps a fair number of new and differing corporations / companies / small-businesses of every color. What we had here, instead, by virtue of our political 'friends,' was a 'Reverse Phoenix' -> the sacrifice of the new and young, for the sake of the old and decrepit. Throwing sailors' bodies under the ship to keep it afloat, and what a price we've paid!

The only major problem here is that Mr Market (the personification of the market, typically the creative destructive arm thereof, though not limited to) doesn't appear done with the US. Those old firms, the ones which manufactured this sacrifice...he appears to want them, and is willing to destroy the country to get them. See the fun with Greece for a better example -> not content with the bailout they received, the old firms have been holding Greece for ransom; they bought into the bonds, knowing that Greece would default, but figured that with their might, they could force the ECB to pay them off. This whole nonsense with a slow default is only so the Europeans can scramble to find a way to prevent a Credit Default Swap, which would annihilate them all.

I couldn't for the life of me, figure out why the Europeans wouldn't just let Greece fail; they knew it, as well as the rest of us, that Greece couldn't repay that money, yet they were handing it to them in briefcases. It turns out that these firms, typically US in origin, had setup a game, just like the mortgage crisis in the US ("Heads we win, Tails you lose"), with the Greek bonds; and the Europeans, while being asked to pay off these firms (something like two Euros for every one Euro on the face of the bond), have been slowly trying to disable that poison pill.

And Mr. Market has been very slowly working his way, through all their defenses, to claim them. They must die.

Re:Is it time?

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously you need the outdoor element. That's when you get the merit badge for "gaining access to a satellite to gain Internet access from the middle of the desert". Which obviously comes after such badges as "Wardriving" and "Dumpster Diving for Information Gathering", and may come before or after "Living Outdoors While on the Run from the FBI".

Ironic Captcha: camped

Re:Is it time?

[martin-boundary]

Now everyone is a geek.

Ha! Only for values of geek near not. But I guess that was your point.

Re:Is it time?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, get a blog.

Re:Is it time?

[maxwell demon]

W00F!

On the internet, nobody knows you are just a dog ... unless you bark.

Re:Is it time?

[fifedrum]

amen, the whole point of scouting is to get out and move and learn to build, fix and strengthen things. There's no way a video game should be part of a badge, unless the scout it writing one.

I was never a scout, but my son and daughters have been since they were old enough. I've been on many a campout with them, and as they get older, we'll go adventuring out in the big blue room together in canoes, with backpacks, rifles (though no firearms in scouts, so that'll be strictly civilian), sleep under the stars and leave the technology behind.

Re:Is it time?

[Hognoxious]

His bark is worse than his byte.

Re:Is it time?

[Hognoxious]

One generation which bankrupted us and couldn't fix a toaster to save their lives

It does amaze me what people throw away.

The other day I saw one of those clothes drying racks dumped in the street - 3 sections that fold flat for storage, in use they form a Z shape. One of the little plastic hinges was broken.

My gran had one exactly the same. She'd replaced the broken hinge with a piece of cord braided back & forth so it was bendable but didn't slip. As a kid, I used to undo the braid. Then I learned not to undo it. Then I learned how to retie it after my brother came along and learned how to undo it. She must have got another twenty years out of it.

Re:Is it time?

[Hognoxious]

What do you do for power, take a generator with you?

Nothing better than the thwubbathwubba sound & the and smell of oil when you're trying to commune with nature.

Coder Dojo

[Randyj70999]

There is a coder Scouts, called Coder Dojo http://coderdojo.com/

Re:Coder Dojo

[ackthpt]

There is a coder Scouts, called Coder Dojo http://coderdojo.com/

Scouts have Explorers. When I was in High School I was in a computer technology/electronics Explorer post. It was rad. First taste of computers, programming and stuff. Not a new idea.

Re:Coder Dojo

[Anonymous Coward]

I built my first computer (from chips, capacitors and resistor) as well as write an OS from scratch and learned assembly and Pascal in the Explorers back in the 80's. It was also my introduction to the internet. Good times.

Other Boy Scout traditions...

[Anonymous Coward]

Will Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts 2.0 include online predators?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_sex_abuse_cases

Scouts is About Camping Skills

[Anonymous Coward]

Spawn Camping! That's a patch!

This will be followed by the Creative Cursing patch, which is then followed by the Greater Internet F-wad patch.

Simple Answer:

[Anonymous Coward]

No.

We already have an obesity problem

[GeneralTurgidson]

Kids need to be outside and learn useful things. The Internet is pretty easy to use, coding and configuring software is best left to teachers or summer camps. The scout programs really need to stick to their guns, don't spoil a good thing. Theyre one of the last bastions of real childhood enrichment.

Re:We already have an obesity problem

[Opportunist]

Useful things... let's see, which one might it be in our time and age? How to make fire by rubbing a stick in a board only or how to make efficient SQL statements?

Don't get me wrong, I'm with you at the "childhood enrichment" part, but useful? Only if you believe the "end of the world at the end of the year" thing.

Re:We already have an obesity problem

[ancienthart]

Useful in that it gets kids to think beyond "That's just a stick and a board."

I was raised on a small dairy farm, so we had to do a lot of our repairs, modifications and fabrication ourselves. Good old wire and bailing twine. :D

I'm now a science teacher and am constantly surprised when some city (thus, supposedly more advantaged) kids freeze up at the idea of designing their own experiments or equipment. It's anecdotal, but it seems that the kids that have outdoor lives as well as books and computers, are the ones who come up with the coolest solutions.

Re:We already have an obesity problem

[DarwinSurvivor]

I don't know about you, but knowing how to tie knots, set up a tent, use a compass, etc are VERY useful to me, especially since I like camping. And by the way, once you get to the higher levels, your group can actually specialize. For instance, I helped set up an isolated telephone network that spanned multiple kilometers with only a single power source at our last 2 Jamborees. We also set up Internet connections for kids to contact home and for the on-site hospital (no joke) to diagnose problems as well as radio towers and a dispatch room. Pulling cat5 cable through underbrush is a unique experience that few people get.

Re:We already have an obesity problem

[AK Marc]

You can teach someone orienteering through an online class with online tests. This isn't about whether to have computer-scouts, but scout-badges-on-computers, which is possible for many badges, and could greatly increase the educational value of the scouting program, but "camping" badges would still be done outdoors.

Re:We already have an obesity problem

[seringen]

You can teach them the principles of orienteering through an online class with online test, but it's definitely not orienteering! My old scoutmaster would take us out at night with a compass, get us lost, and have us figure out how to get home. that has been a very important life skill and something that would be impossible to do online. Nowadays people are hopeless without GPS, it is shocking and frankly bothers me.

I still generally agree with you, but teaching someone how to read the outside environment is a wonderful tool and has literally saved my life on a couple of occasions.

Re:We already have an obesity problem

[Osgeld]

heh yea, we recently went on a camping trip with some buddies, I was the only one able to figure out how to toss a rope over a branch and string a lantern over it, our site was the only one with a (sterno) stove and a light, everyone else was trying to heat beans in the dark 4 foot away from a piss poor fire

Re:We already have an obesity problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a scout leader.

The point is to put groups of kids into situations where there are problems to solve. The adults tag along to drive, pay the bills, and talk to police (which is hopefully rarely necessary). There are many ways to do this, but the way scouts generally does it the problems involve food, warmth, and equipment. And sometimes traveling with high tech like boots and boats.

The nominal skills, such as firebuilding, are a smokescreen. A reasonably intelligent scout or adult can learn to build fires in reasonable conditions with 50 grams of technology, in about 30 minutes. Or in any conditions with the same technology in a few hours, plus lots and lots of practice. Building a fire with no technology whatsoever is a much different skill and generally not taught in scouting.

The skill they're learning has more to do with patience, investigation, and problem-solving. It's interesting to watch 12-year-olds attempt to start a fire with a book of matches and conclude in 2 minutes that "it's broken".

It's also a challenge to get the adults to stop making the fires and let the kids do it. Kids will always gleefully allow adults to do all the work. It only works if the adults stand on the sidelines.

It's also nice to have a partial antidote to electronics. Every kid these days is glued to electronic games. Without debating the value of games some of time, it's pretty easy to argue that it's useful to not play games some of the time. Hang out with friends. Solve problems. Look around and see interesting things, like trees and streams.

And by the way, scouting is ultra-hightech these days. When I "rough it", I do it in perfect comfort carrying a pretty small amount of really high tech stuff. And water. I carry lots of water. Sigh. I do wish we'd figure out a way to dehydrate that stuff.

I'd like to direct your attention to...

[roc97007]

...a book published in 1965 called "the mad scientist's club". The main difference as I see it is that the kids did technical pranks and hardhacks outside in the sun and fresh air, a concept that would probably be considered abnormal now.

Re:I'd like to direct your attention to...

[eyenot]

And tangentially, see "the child and the machine", a decently researched book about the financial incebtives behind throwing computers at the largest groups of the youngest kids possible, and also about how computers being involved at an early age have resulted in poorer academic performance in the majority of cases.

Re:I'd like to direct your attention to...

[Black Parrot]

...a book published in 1965 called "the mad scientist's club". The main difference as I see it is that the kids did technical pranks and hardhacks outside in the sun and fresh air, a concept that would probably be considered abnormal now.

I get a nice even tan from my monitors, thank you very much.

Re:I'd like to direct your attention to...

[roc97007]

You can buy vitamin-D supplements in bulk at Costco, I hear...

Re:I'd like to direct your attention to...

[jackbird]

Also, one of the first stories in the series involves the kids purchasing a WWII surplus miniature Japanese submarine, making it seaworthy in some way, and doing some kind of prank with it without particularly much in the way of adult supervision.

The number of government agencies, from municipal to federal, that would freak out completely at the first hint of such an activity in this day and age is amusing and sad to contemplate.

For further reading, Edward Abbey's "The Monkey-Wrench Gang" is like a sequel in which those kids grew up discovered women and dope, and joined Earth First.

Re:I'd like to direct your attention to...

[roc97007]

I always thought the kids were more likely to grow up to be NSA or CIA analysts.

Re:I'd like to direct your attention to...

[jackbird]

Probably depends whether they tried booze or shrooms first.

Re:I'd like to direct your attention to...

[Hognoxious]

I'm mildly claustrophobic and a crap swimmer so if I did that I would be a tairst - against myself!

Fine as is

[twnth]

I do not think it is necessary to reform all organizations to match some illusionary techno elite mold.

Scouts/Guides teach different skills, like what the sun looks like and how to get along with others, that are not well represented by the can't-lift-face-from-LCD crowd.

Badges are about basic skills and sense of accomplishment (little milestones met). Leaderboards are about competition. Each has their merit.

P.S. Get off my lawn

Re:Fine as is

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with not changing the basic layout of the Scouts, but the badge proposals in the article do make sense. The Scouts have a Computers badge which involves making spread sheets and power point stuff. A badge for tweets, and 3D fabbing fits perfectly. Some of the badges, such as Nuclear Science can get very involved and have almost nothing to do with the outdoors.

Re:Fine as is

[ancienthart]

I loved Cup Scouts because our scout leader got us to do all sorts of interesting things for the sheer hell of doing something new.
However, the instant I was old enough to get into Scouts, trying to earn badges got boring fast.
I feel the same way about "kicking a ball around" and joining a team sport.

I'm not sure competition is the best way to motivate young children.

Re:Fine as is

[DarwinSurvivor]

I can't talk for the BSA or any other countries, but Canada is actually in the process of updating all their technology badges. The current one actually references scsi drives! They are looking to add Internet safety, security, etc to the badge now to make it fit current technology better.

Re:Fine as is

[darkfeline]

like what the sun looks like

Permanent blindness?

Re:Fine as is

[multipartmixed]

> I loved Cup Scouts

Did your troop have two girls in it?

Merit badges already available...

[wbr1]

I just got the Fry-o-later achievement badge in TF2 today!

Really?

[eyenot]

"Social networks and the maker movement are the perfect intersection of where the kids of today are"

Who writes this crap? It's like somebody yelled cheeseburger and I got there and they hand fed me a potato chip.

What kind of autistic parents want their kid to grow and develope in some electronic cocoon? What's really driving this:

A) fear of legacies not surviving the technologized future

B) fear that at the rate forests are being consumed, there won't be any such thing as campgrounds in the future

C) just straight fucking autism

No

[Hentes]

Isn't the point of scouts is to get kids out of the basement to move and do something?

Re:No

[mianne]

I'd say there's a huge difference between pwning n00bz in WoW for 15 hours a day and intensive hands-on training in AI, robotics, e-commerce, cryptography, rocketry, etc.. We have more than enough kids trained in the former, and so precious few skilled in the latter.

Re:No

[Ihmhi]

As a former Scout, I would like to remind you that we spent more than a fair bit of time in our school's gym tying knots, setting up tents, and having pine derby races. And let's not forget about arts and crafts - I still have my paper maché statue doing the Hadouken pose.

Not really

[bjdevil66]

Yes, the core Scouting organizations could use online resources for organizational purposes or for some merit badges that could be done online.

However, most of the valuable experiences from scouting can only be gained in person - experiencing things in real life. Camping. Swimming. Hiking. Shooting. Meeting people in various fields and getting a real education about a topic (even if it is cursory), Etc.

However, online scouting would lose a lot of the value you get by interacting with live people who can share their experiences.

Re:Not really

[Anonymous Coward]

Hacking has plenty of camping, swimming, hiking, and shooting! Having you seen Tron, ReBoot, or Cyberchase?

Re:Not really

[drinkypoo]

Hacker scouting should be partly done in hackerspaces for just the reason you suggest. On the other hand, virtual collaboration is a useful skill, too.

Re:Not really

[Anonymous Coward]

And actually, we do lots of online stuff. Scouts is significantly different due to online tech. Email alone is a complete game-changer. I know email seems like old-hat, but at this point it is ubiquitous and it's a great way to communicate with other scout leaders and parents.

All the merit-badge requirements are online. That's really useful, too.

All our troop information is online, for parents to access.

Our troop database is electronic and distributed.

The scouts text each other all the time. (Not because text is new and cool and email is old and bad. That's horseshit. But because text is what they have on their phones. And it's a lot easier to get someone's phone number and verify it while you're standing there, than to trade email addresses. I'll be glad when text and email merge.)

Some scouts are highly tech-oriented. Many are not.

Nobody has leapt on the robotics badge yet. They generally focus on the required badges and the then the easy badges. One out of ten scouts has any interest in earning badges they don't have to.

The few hours a month the scouts spend doing scouts are spent interacting with each other and doing things.

Discrimination Issues

[RCC42]

I just wanted to mention that the Boys and Girls scouts of America do not allow homosexuals into leadership positions, youth or adult.

Moreover they completely bar atheists and agnostics from membership of any kind.

Support them if you so desire but do so with full awareness of what you are supporting.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Feature, not a bug.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

"Moreover they completely bar atheists and agnostics from membership of any kind."

false. not sure where you heard this. there is nothing on the application form that says 'specify religious affiliation here' and 'if none, go find the nearest exit.' 'a scout is reverent' is a core element of scouting. but great flexibility is given to 'reverent'. This would vary greatly from group to group, however, as some groups chartered by certain churches have an expectation that you'll be part of that religion. There are certain advancement opportunities that are faith based. at each youth level, most involve having a discussion with your parent about faith and what that means to you. even if you take umbrage to that, and decide to forego that part of advancement, you can be a member of the group. no one kicks you out unless you decide to stop coming. At least, that's BSA GSUSA policy. any one church might apply their own house rules.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[flaming error]

The Girl Scouts have nothing to do with each other and entirely different philosophies.

The Boy Scouts are basically structured to be the youth program for the mormon church.

The Girl Scouts are far more warm, friendly, and liberal.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

False.

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp

Re:Discrimination Issues

[eyenot]

God... Cackling... Lmao.... Really?

Do you think we're all that moronic?

What about the constant stream of counselors anything but the model you preach?

So you throw them out when you catch them. And I throw up if I'm too sick. But unlike a person woth a strong immune system,you get these sickoes into your ranks so consistently that I along with most people I know would never advise a parent to release a child to your temporary observation or guardianship!

Fuck that, i mean, since you obviously can NOT screen for the whacked fucks when they sign on but, just like the catholic church, only react after the fact by denying it happens, who gives a flying FUCK about your insipid and devious attempt to resemble human beings with feelings?

  Maybe you could focus less on getting peoples' kids far away from them an into trust situations under strangers, and maybe focus on providing something real to the fucking United States of America. Because we don't need another outlet for pedophiles and acid dosing abuse freaks, any more than you all need holes in your heads.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a 48 year old Scout. I joined Boy Scouts at age 11 and have been a Scout or leader ever since. I'm an Asst. Scoutmaster (ASM) and have been for over 25 years now. I know about Scouting and its principles.

I'm posting anonymously because I could be "fired" as a Scout leader for the things I'm about to say.

The parent is incorrect in that Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are different organizations. Girl Scouts do not bar membership for homosexuals or atheists. Boy Scouts ban both. I HATE the fact that Boy Scouts does this and makes it their official policy.

Why they do this is fairly straightforward. In addition to posthumously baptizing Jews who died in the holocaust, the Mormon church has Boy Scouts as its OFFICIAL youth organization for boys. They do not have Girl Scouts as the organization for their girls, for exactly the difference in stance noted above.

As such, I HATE the Mormon church. They are ruining an organization that I love very dearly.

My personal feeling is that Scouting should be about lots of things - having a moral code that asks you to treat others with kindness and respect, and helping them when you can. It should have NOTHING to do with sex, let alone sexual orientation, nor should it require a belief in God. Simply a "higher power" would suffice for me, and would be consistent with other groups such as AA.

I have struggled with this for many years. I have friends who have had to leave my troop because they are gay. One was a very close friend. His departure was a huge loss for our troop (but happily a gain for a more enlightened organization). I have almost sent my Eagle Scout award to Scouting for All, an organization working to change BSAs position on these two things. (I wish I could send it... I worked too hard for it to mail it away... I still struggle with this) Regardless it would do little good. BSA cannot afford to lose the Mormons. The organization would probably fold if it did, so the Mormons have BSA by the short hairs, and there isn't much that can be done.

On a brighter note, while there is no Hacking Merit Badge, there are merit badges for Computers, Electronics, Engineering, Geocaching, Inventing, and Robotics.

And there are troops out there that only pay lip service to the 2 principles discussed above. For example, in my troop, there is no requirement to profess a belief in God, so long as one does not publicly proclaim atheism. No Scout or leader has ever been dismissed for being a homosexual, so long as that information remains private. It is essentially a "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy. As such, it is flawed and asks people to live a lie, and is still wrong. But its the best we can do under the circumstance, for if we left an openly homosexual leader in place, the National Council would revoke our Charter, and the entire troop would cease to exist.

Like I said, I struggle with this. I don't ask for pity or praise. I feel like a coward. Because I am a coward. I tell myself about the greater good, and put it out of my mind. But what hurts the most is that my position and actions basically controvert the exact principles on which Scouting was founded.

On my honor.... (do I have any?)
I will do my best... (am I?)
To do my duty to God and my Country... (what will God think of me not standing up for my friend?)
To obey the Scout Law... (how many of those words have I broken now?)
To help other people at all times... (unless they are an atheist or gay?)
To keep myself physically strong
Mentally awake... (I guess I still have this one)
And morally straight... ('nuff said)

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, I would just like to reiterate.

The Girl Scouts as a whole do not discriminate upon orientation, nor sex. They work with Planned Parenthood and many of the leaders are feminists. (Read this if you think feminists are all "feminazis")

Just recently they allowed a transgendered girl to join.

Now, what often happens is local chapters don't agree. In fact, a troop in Louisiana disbanded in protest. Which is really really stupid. Boggles the mind people would be willing to sacrafice such an excellent program for their daughters because the organization as a whole rightly believes that a girl isn't defined by what's between her legs.

Here's a dispicable group that had a 14 year old girl make a video very much against transgendered people, calling for people to boycott buying Girl Scout cookies. So of course everyone ended up buying a ton of cookies from them, I also think they figured out who she was and kicked her out. Unsurprisingly that video has been taken down, but there's probably copies up elsewhere. They have a Wall of Shame that is better read as Wall of Awesome.

http://www.honestgirlscouts.com/

Also, the web layout is just awful. Just plain awful.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[demonlapin]

A belief in a "higher power" is just a cop-out for belief in a deity. It has neither the rigor of belief in a deity that will hold you to account, nor the boldness of admitting none at all. If Scouting wants to maintain its insistence on belief in God, then it's entitled to - after all, it's a private organization. But don't be a fucking pussy about it.

BTW, why not send in your certificate? You were awarded the Eagle; you earned it; you proved yourself. A principled resignation of your title does not diminish your accomplishments: it adds to them.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[ethicalcannibal]

As other's have said, the two organizations are not remotely connected. The Boy Scouts don't allow athiests or LGBT folks. The Girl Scouts however, have been supporting transgirls in their troups, and doing some amazingly inclusive things. This is causing some conservative groups to boycott the Girl Scouts. I've actually just bought 20 boxes of cookies today to support the Girl Scouts. I never normally buy Girl Scout cookies, either.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

As an atheist parent of a girl scout, I think you have unfairly painted both organizations with the same brush. Girl Scouts have no religious test. They even let a transgender kid in.

Note the recent Indiana moron in the news who claims that girl scouts promote homosexuality.

Boy Scouts are completely discriminatory though.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

I am an Eagle as well and am involved with my son in Scouting. Like you, I have very strong concerns with the bigoted idea that that religious beliefs and heterosexualilty are prerequisites for morality.

But....if you have been involved in scouting that long, then you're well aware that the ban on homosexuals in scouting is there for the same reason that females are not allowed/strongarmed out from being overnight activities leaders in the Boy Scouts. It is purely about liability. There have been plenty of sexual liaisons between boys or boys and leaders over the years that have really hurt the program. ...and having been involved in council level work, I'm aware that there are many many more that never see the light of day due to embarrassment of the parents/victim.

Yes, the Mormons have a very strong talon wrapped around the throat of Scouting....but it is also a very conservative organization that is deeply rooted in churches across the US. (almost every troop I know of use a Church's facility or resources) There is plenty of weight on the organization to uphold the religious requirements, even though they pretty much boil down to "you can have a belief system of agnostic or higher" and "you must say the Pledge of Allegiance, Scout Promise, etc as they are currently written".

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the troops that operate as Mormon Youth Groups are not held in high regard.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[flaming error]

> I HATE the Mormon church.
I don't. I grew up in it, still belong to it I guess. It does good things. It does bad things. It's run by laypeople, many of whom are very sincere, many of whom are intelligent and reasonable, many of whom are genuinely Christ-like (turn-the-other-cheek as opposed to belligerent sanctimony).

But collectively it is a global corporation with hordes of lawyers, accountants, and a budget many nations could envy, and it has considerable political clout. They really have hijacked the BSA with their own politics.

AC, you shouldn't be ashamed for not tilting at windmills. We're all imperfect humans, some of us try to act with altruism. That the social routes available are imperfect shouldn't stop us from wielding them for good.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

My scout troop was mostly atheist/agnostic, had 1 open gay member, and was run by a crazy veterinarian, a bluegrass player, and a rather cool episcopal priest. Never had any kind of issues. Granted, we also didn't sell popcorn and had almost no connection to the regional scout council. We were just barely tolerated enough to participate in OA.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

I just wanted to mention that the Boys and Girls scouts of America do not allow homosexuals into leadership positions, youth or adult.

Fine, so the Hacker Scouts can turn this into a "no Apple fags!" rule.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[bill_mcgonigle]

The Boy Scouts are basically structured to be the youth program for the mormon church.

Um, no - the Mormon units don't really interact with the rest of them. You should go work with a local Scout unit to see what they're about. Reading online complaints isn't the way to find out what acutally happens. Worst case, you've confirmed your fears and feel right about it. Best case, you learn something new.

Also, the way Scouting is run is very dependent on the local culture - you'll find varying views among a varying population. Not shocking, really.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[bill_mcgonigle]

The Boy Scouts don't allow athiests or LGBT folks.

Leaders. At this time. The boys don't have such requirements - Boy Scouts takes all boys.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[bill_mcgonigle]

In the field, the requirement is that the boy acknowledge that there is a 'higher purpose' to life. I suppose that does exclude the nihilist boys, but those are pretty rare.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because gay men going on overnight camping trips with 14-year-old boys is SUCH a great idea. Oops, did I just offend someone with an inconvenient truth?

Re:Discrimination Issues

[jdogalt]

I call BullShit of the first order on the parent post's reply to this grandparent post:

""Moreover they completely bar atheists and agnostics from membership of any kind."

false. not sure where you heard this. ... even if you take umbrage to that, and decide to forego that part of advancement, you can be a member of the group"

  *as a former cub-scout atheist, now a Christian at age 36*, who refused to become a boy scout because of the required pledge to God during the bridge/arrow of light ceremony.

"
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Promise#United_States_of_America

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, I'm warm and friendly to people who aren't into kinky bondage sex, and I'm also friendly to people who like sticking their penises into other men or rubbing their vaginas against other women - one of which I'm not into, and the other I'm entirely incapable of doing.

Then again, I'm socially liberal and fiscally conservative, so don't fit in the category of Conservative(tm) (socially tyrannical, fiscally liberal) or Liberal(tm) (socially centrist, fiscally completely fucking insane).

Re:Discrimination Issues

[jdogalt]

parent post is BullShit as well, again, coming from a christian, who when he was an atheist cub-scout, having fulfilled all the requirements to become a boy scout (bridge/arrow of light ceremony), kept his honor by refusing to become a boy scout which required the following pledge-

"
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Promise#United_States_of_America

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Sosarian Avatar]

Gay guys are attracted to ADULTS of the same sex; they're no more interested in little boys than hetero guys are in little girls. Are you trying to imply that you molest little girls, or are you truly cowardly enough that you'll only admit your beliefs anonymously?

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for sharing this. I have similar views -- I think the Girl Scouts are great and I hate what the Mormons did to the Boy Scouts.

I've always hoped in time the Boy Scouts might break free into their own entity again and revert back to what the Girl Scouts is now, where it's all about openness and tolerance mostly. I think it will happen, probably within the next 20 years.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell it to the church groups that routinely put 14-year-old girls under the care of abusive adult male camp leaders.

Go to your local courthouse and count the number of statutory rape and molestation incidents that have occurred at church camps. You will be shocked.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

This is an interesting story. I was ejected from the Boy Scouts about a year after I joined, when I realized that (unlike my experience for the first badge) I wasn't willing to pretend I believed in a God and say little prayers to my imaginary friend anymore. That experience soured me pretty heavily on the organization.

Two of my coworkers have had the exact same experience in two other states. It may not be the organization's "official" position, but it is happening all over.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

If we can have a gay president, isn't it time for gay boy scout leaders?

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/batmobeal/2011/08/19/the-batcave--obamas-gay-lover-and-author-larry-sinclair

Re:Discrimination Issues

[narcc]

*as a former cub-scout atheist, now a Christian at age 36*

I call shenanigans. What, pray tell, convinced you that 1) a God exists 2) there is exactly one, and 3) he's the one described in the Bible.

Also, it's well known that the BSA is a hate-group that is both anti-gay and anti-atheist.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[narcc]

I think it's pretty clear that he's a closet case who's into little boys. We've seen this kind of projection before in certain "anti"-gay elected officials...

Re:Discrimination Issues

[flaming error]

Um, yes. I am an Asst. Scoutmaster, in a mormon troop. You are right that mormon units tend to associate with each other, and you are right that there can be differences in cultures, but the national BSA policies are exactly what the LDS church wants them to be.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Only if they're black. It's ok for presidents to be gay if they're black.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

AC, you shouldn't be ashamed for not tilting at windmills. We're all imperfect humans, some of us try to act with altruism.

If the boyscouts can survive without the mormons in other places then they can do so in the US, hey just rename it "the scouts" and leave the 1800-houndreds.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

The Boy Scouts are basically structured to be the youth program for the mormon church.

That's a very bizarre statement. As a Southerner who was a Cub and Boy Scout, I don't think I ever met a Mormon Cub/Boy Scout at any of the camps or scout events I went to. I think the Baptist church I went to Scouts at wouldn't have exactly been sponsoring the troop if it was all just a shadowy front for the Mormon church.

Not that I like to hold up intolerance as a counterweight to conspiracy theories, but there you are.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[sociocapitalist]

"I have almost sent my Eagle Scout award to Scouting for All, an organization working to change BSAs position on these two things. (I wish I could send it... I worked too hard for it to mail it away... I still struggle with this)"

The harder you've worked for it, the greater the symbolism of rejecting it becomes.

You could choose to start or join an organization with the same values, minus the discrimination.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyway, it will always be a problem when you have only one scouting organisation in a country, you will always disagree with your organisation because you have no choice but to be in it.

I'm still shocked at how there is still separate organisations for boys and girls in the US (I'm from France), I wouldn't imagnie having only boys as a scout leader.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[DerekLyons]

Or, in other words, the national organization tolerates (nay, tacitly encourages) discrimination, bigotry, intolerance, and bias by allowing local branches to enforce their faith on Scouts. So yes, as the grandparent says, you should know what you're getting into because the organization tolerates such things - all it takes is one bad apple, and in the case of the Boy Scouts there's a *lot* of bad apples. (In my area, it's practically a branch of the Mormon church.)

Re:Discrimination Issues

[DerekLyons]

I have struggled with this for many years.

You haven't struggled one bit. You actively worked (by your own admission) for nearly forty years to support the organization's bias and intolerance.
 

I feel like a coward. Because I am a coward. I tell myself about the greater good, and put it out of my mind.

No, you're much worse than a coward. A coward is influenced by fear or force - and you are neither. You could walk away at any time, and you do not. You're a collaborator - and a willing one.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

You are correct, they are not remotely related. The Boy Scouts are known for the number of leaders (community, government, business) that they produce. The Girl Scouts are known for selling cookies.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[drinkypoo]

When they remove the emphasis on Jesus from the scouting materials and stop their homophobia then people might believe they're something other than a fascist religious organization.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[drinkypoo]

My personal feeling is that Scouting should be about lots of things - having a moral code that asks you to treat others with kindness and respect, and helping them when you can. It should have NOTHING to do with sex, let alone sexual orientation, nor should it require a belief in God.

But you have to pledge your belief in God to even join, so if you don't, and you join, you're a hypocrite by definition.

Simply a "higher power" would suffice for me, and would be consistent with other groups such as AA.

So if you don't believe in some psychic mystical hoo-ha, you're a bad person?

I have almost sent my Eagle Scout award to Scouting for All, an organization working to change BSAs position on these two things. (I wish I could send it... I worked too hard for it to mail it away... I still struggle with this)

You can send it, and you will if you have the courage of your convictions.

morally straight

Prove it.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[aamcf]

In the UK you can be gay and be in the Scouts. There is even an active support unit for gay and lesbian scouts - FLAGS - the National Scout Active Support Unit for LGBT members of Scouting in the UK. I walked with the FLAGS group in London Pride 2011, and my husband tells me I'll be doing it again in 2012 :)

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Ihmhi]

Sir, don't torture yourself any longer. The BSA has proven time and time again that they are completely unwilling to change their position on the issues of homosexuals and non-believers. Join an alternative scouting organization - or better yet, form a troop for one of them if you don't have one in your area - and do things the way the boy scouts should be doing them. Be accepting of everyone regardless of race, creed, orientation, etc. Teach the kids the same skills, the same life lessons.

My high school was very, very diverse. (Hell, we had our own GLAAD chapter). When I was younger, I wasn't really exposed to people from other countries (save the standard dominant ethnicity of your local neighborhood, in my case Portuguese, Spanish, and Brazilian people). The most important lesson I learned at that school is that there's nothing especially different or strange about people from different cultures. I had friends from 20 different countries speaking 20 different languages. I learned more about the world in my time at that school than I had in any history class. The Scouts have the potential to be the same way, but they foolishly squander it.

Finish out the year with your troop, leave, tell them why you are leaving, and go support an organization that actually fits into the modern world.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[brianerst]

Actually, in Northeastern Illinois, the LDS church is the main organizer of the entire district. Most troops are not LDS affiliated, but all the main organizing events (council meetings, etc.) take place at the LDS church and they are definitely the prime movers.

I'm not LDS and I have no problem with them running things. In general, scouting here is probably a little more liberal than in many areas - I don't detect any LDS "agenda". The LDS church is just really into Boy Scouts and they have lots of people volunteering to do the hard/boring stuff. Good for them!

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

> The Boy Scouts don't allow athiests or LGBT folks.

That's what the National organization says. In reality, Boy Scouts is decentralized, and locally run and led. In my troop, nobody bats an eye at our same-sex-married lesbian assistant scoutmaster-- for one thing, she has better backcountry and winter camping skills than 95% of the fathers in the troop. I'm an open atheist, Eagle scout, former Cub scout den leader, current Boy Scout assistant scoutmaster, and father of Star and Eagle scouts. I can tell you that in the entire program, the religious requirements are:

1) Say "under god" in the pledge of allegiance.
2) Say "I will do my best, for God and my country" in the scout oath.
3) Say "a scout is reverent" as part of the scout law. Reverent to what is unspecified.
4) In the religion acheivement for one of the Cub scout ranks: "Discuss your religous beliefs with your parents". I told my kids I was atheist, they told me they were atheists, and we had a good discussion on faith, religion, and morality.

That's it. I can live with the first three-- it's no different than having in god we trust on our currency. Number 4 I think is an excellent requirement.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Chelloveck]

I feel your pain. I'm 45 and an Eagle Scout. It's one of my proudest achievements. My time in Scouts was invaluable. But, my time predated the BSA declaring itself to be a religious organization. I was (and am) agnostic, but my troop's leaders helped me define what "reverent" and "duty to God" can mean in that context. How I could uphold the spirit of those values if not the letter.

Jump-cut to my own son in Scouts. In his troop you could be any religion you wanted -- so long as it was of Judeo-Christian origin. Lip service was given to other religions, but "none" was simply not an option. He quit when he was 13, primarily because he couldn't work within the strict letter-of-the-law policies. I couldn't even argue with his decision. He's right, it's not the place for him. It's a shame because he enjoyed the rest of it.

I still think that overall, Boy Scouts is a great program. But the BSA is being spoiled by a few really backwards social policies.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

By this same logic, people who are anti-scouts are also considered hate groups. I'd give my left arm if *most* scouts weren't more tolerant, respectful individuals than your average gay atheist.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

I have the exact opposite story: I was a full-on Christian in the Cub and Boy Scouts - I even made it to Eagle Scout. But then I went to college, learned a lot more about life, beliefs, knowledge, science (astrophysics, evolution), non-science (intelligent design, creationism, religion, the Catholic Church), and started to question some of my beliefs. Once I started to question my Catholic beliefs, the wonderful FOCUS missionaries swooped in and tried to take over our religious discussion forum and turn it into incredibly boring "this is what the Catechism says about the subject you just brought up. Instead of discussing it with living, breathing human beings, you should go think about this for years before turning your back to Catholic theology, and in the mean time vote what the Church wants even if it is against your conscience regarding gay marriage, religiously-based laws, and overturning Roe-vs.-Wade." sessions. They were incredibly devious and at one point called our group "not Catholic enough" because we invited non-Catholics to come and discuss. So I left the Catholic Church and became basically a deist. Then I read "The Sparrow" and realized that a God that loved me, everybody, and everything would not simply ignore us after creation, so I started to identify as an atheist (which was very painful and took a long time).

So, here I am, a devout atheist, with the highest honor from a religious society (the Boy Scouts). Am I still an Eagle Scout? Am I even a Boy Scout? I think I have followed the spirit of Boy Scouts - I respect others' beliefs and think about my own regularly (which is what I understand "reverent" to be), I consider myself to be physically fit (mostly - I need to work out more), mentally awake, and morally straight (I just have different morals than other people), and the only thing I can't honestly say is the "God" word in the Scout Oath. Boy Scouts was a very good organization to grow up in, to a certain extent, and it kept me out of trouble and formed my conscience today, but I think I have kind of left them behind because they refuse to adapt and grow in a society that no longer considers homosexuals and atheists to be immoral. It makes me sad to think of all of the kids nowadays (including my own, someday) that won't have the fun in Boy Scouts that I did, but I'd like to think that by the time my kids are ready, either a non-religious and gay-friendly organization has sprung up that helps kids grow and mature, or I create one from scratch.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[strangeattraction]

You are completely wrong. My best friend from high school spent many years earning his Eagle Scout. When it came time to receive the honor he requested that religious references be removed from the ceremony. He was told that he acknowledge a belief in God or forgo getting the Eagle Scout he spent many years earning.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Czech Blue Bear]

Derek, you are insanely strict - your opinions are those of a fanatic demigod, not those of understanding human. Please try to spend some time between us mere mortals for a while. Struggle in the inside is still a struggle, although not publicly visible, and it is still worth some praise, even if you fail. It is very hard to fight an ideology you have genuinely trusted and served for many years. In fact, very few people are strong enough to win such a fight - and they will still end with a feeling they done something wrong.

So, *maybe* the original commenter is a coward, but one who actively tries not to be one - therefore, he is better than most common people, and for myself, this is quite good. But I am also a coward, so maybe it's just he is one of my kin :-)

Re:Discrimination Issues

[flaming error]

There is no hidden conspiracy about it, the LDS church is very open that Scouting is the activity arm of the male youth program.

http://www.lds.org/pa/display/0,17884,5166-1,00.html

In 1913, the Church adopted Scouting as part of the activity program for Aaronic Priesthood quorums. By providing opportunities for young men to put into practice the gospel lessons they learn in the home and at Church, Scouting programs have supported the priesthood. Under priesthood leadership, Scouting can complement the purposes of Aaronic Priesthood quorums and the Aaronic Priesthood Duty to God program in building testimonies in boys and young men. Scouting can help boys and young men love and serve the Savior and honor their parents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies

The LDS Church is the largest single sponsor of Scouting units with over 30,000 units nationwide, which comprise about 13% of BSA's youth members.

Re:Discrimination Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no tailoring the Eagle Scout award. It is what it is. It does not describe what "God" means. Involving God in scouting is no more significant than having the word God on our money.

As a leader, I'm very happy with BSA policies. Our troop is perfectly content to not have endless debates about religion and sex. We don't care what religion you practice or what adults do with other adults.

And someone mentioned all the BSA sex-abuse rules. We have rules to protect the kids. I've never met an adult leader who had the slightest problem with the protection rules. It's a non-issue.

We have failed

[LuckyJ]

What the hell is about? Seriously? Slashdot, have you have completely succumb to the stupidity of the general population? I've been a loyal reader of Slashdot for quite some time now, but I'm getting sick of the cyber hacker 2.0 source crowd linked advanced persistent open source bitcoin controversial privacy landscape threat awareness law. You guys dropped your balls a thousands exits ago got played by the man.

Re:We have failed

[Anonymous Coward]

Right on brotha. You tell em.

'Badges' Earned Online Pose Challenge to Tradition

[Joe_Dragon]

http://chronicle.com/article/Badges-Earned-Online-Pose/130241/

don't limit it to kids only

This has definite hacker education potential.

[sixtyeight]

There are a lot of comments on the Boy and Girl Scout associations, but not yet many on the use of online merit badges as an alternative educational model.

Imagine educational sites done easily in Drupal, in which users learned skills and knowledge sets about... well, anything. Skillsets disruptive to the status quo, for instance. Hacking. Encryption. True American Common Law. All manner of "disruptive" information. They could earn merit badges and level them up just as they do in an RPG, and display or link them on social networking sites and in their .sig files on sites like Slashdot. As they promoted their learning and interests, others would notice and learn about them as well if they found the material interesting. From there, it's not much of a stretch to imagine them getting together in online forums of interest groups. And then you'd have an alternative model of information distribution from the mainstream media. You'd also have a mechanism for giving people the skills they need to overcome the status quo.

As a bonus, geeks who created sites like that could charge users a negligible amount of BitCoins in monthly dues once they'd leveled past a certain point. The interesting part would be that the moment users became responsible for monthly dues, they would also be eligible for a portion of dues paid by any other new users they'd brought to the site. It would provide some great incentive for users to not only promote awareness by displaying the badges they'd earned, but also mentoring their recruits - thus assisting in the transmission of the information. Anyone doing that actively would find learning and teaching skills of interest to them online would be a sort of profit model, and that they were accruing far more from it than they were paying out.

By making it fun, easy, interesting and profitable, it would be very easy to imagine this model catching on among the mainstream Facebook crowd who are currently sitting around playing FarmVille instead. And thus, you'd have a means of bringing the mainstream back to reality and fixing society while making money for yourself in the process.

Re:This has definite hacker education potential.

[Sosarian Avatar]

Skillsets disruptive to the status quo, for instance. Hacking. Encryption. ... By making it fun, easy, interesting and profitable, it would be very easy to imagine this model catching on among the mainstream Facebook crowd who are currently sitting around playing FarmVille instead. And thus, you'd have a means of bringing the mainstream back to reality and fixing society while making money for yourself in the process.

Most people don't have the talents required for advanced tech work to be pleasurable even if they're extremely bright, as their strengths lie in different areas. They're playing Facebook games in their downtime, no different from folks that play console games, read tech sites, watch TV, etc. -- and there's no reason to believe they're not in "reality."

Re:This has definite hacker education potential.

[sixtyeight]

-- and there's no reason to believe they're not in "reality."

On what planet?

Have you seen what's left of the news lately? These are the people who elect and subsidize corrupt politicians, and then complain about them. Who idly tolerate 93 of 100 demonstrably treasonous Senators enacting legislation so unconstitutional, the military is now authorized to haul off U.S. citizens, decide whether or not the Constitution applies to them, hold them indefinitely, and torture a confession out of them. They're the people who, when they complain, complain instead about PIPA and SOPA because their prioritization is not to have their access to the Internet taken away instead. They're people who have for decades now accepted by default throwing a quarter to a third of their earnings to the government, half of which goes to the military. Their idea of a political solution is to put stickers on their cars that giddily and ineffectually prompt one another to "Impeach Bush" like they're naughty school children spreading gossip via classroom notes, and even then they don't actually do anything based on it. We now have drones patrolling the domestic U.S., and Posse Comitatus has been suspended while these people were paying for it while cooing over the Kardashians and the end of Oprah's daytime talk show. I'm not sure what you're basing your assessment on, but I've completely missed the humor in it.

Re:This has definite hacker education potential.

[DerekLyons]

That sounds more like a model for $PARTY_YOUTH than anything else, because you're teaching a catechism (True American Common Law, whatever that is, and I bet you have more) rather than just skills. Even more frightening - you've included a method for encouraging proselytizing and recruiting *and* a method to subtly enforce remaining a member.

Kind of a combination of Amway and Scientology.

Re:This has definite hacker education potential.

[sixtyeight]

True American Common Law, whatever that is

Glad you asked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_United_States#American_common_law

Alternatively, here is the Advanced Law Substitute they're using today.

If replacing fraudulent color of law with the system We, the People actually established is going to be called a teaching a catechism, I'm probably guilty. Knowing what our political system and system of laws actually are is quite a basic skill to have, and ignorance of it has been enabling all manner of corruption. To me, that's what's scary, or at least vexing.

Kind of a combination of Amway and Scientology.

Then by your reasoning, Paul Revere was a potentially great Amway salesman born too soon. Trippy.

Please don't attempt to make a grindhouse film out of efforts for patriotism and civic duty.

Really?... no

[Anonymous Coward]

Certainly in the UK, scouts can be the only opportunity for many kids to get out and experience the natural world, enjoy being self-sufficient and socialise with other kids from many geographical and social backgrounds on common terms.

Sitting around a campfire, sewing newly earnt badges into one's camp blanket whilst singing songs with other scouts is, in my opinion, a great thing. The scouts has broadened its horizons into 'some' tech, but at the core of it is comminity and life skills. All these kids know how to use the internet, and any that are keen on computing more than from a user's p.o.v. would probably find a watered down version uninspiring.

Keep Scouts what is always has been, swiss army knives, woggles and annoyingly repetitive songs.

I was a "hacker" scout in 1994

[sdguero]

It's called an "explorer post." My troop was hosted by a kids Dad who was an engineer at a company that made Mars rover prototypes for NASA. We made websites for ourselves to start out, which they hosted on the companies web server (*nix running apache), and after we learned http we made websites for for car dealerships and other small businesses to raise money for the post. Among the many cool activities we did, they also let us program very expensive Mars rover prototypes to walk around and explore the office and we had challenges to see who could program the best runs etc...

That experience, and having a computer in my room at very young age, are probably the two biggest reasons why I ended up choosing a career in Engineering. I have often thought that if I ever get off my lazy butt to do something good for the community it would be a technology explorer post like the one I was lucky enough to get into.

Re:I was a "hacker" scout in 1994

[spaceman375]

I did explorers back in '74. I sat at Bell Labs in Holmdel, nj and played Hunt The Wumpus on computers 50 miles away. Got to write any programs I wanted, any language I cared to tackle, on state of the art mainframes, with willing tutors for whatever direction I chose. Didn't realize the spectacular opportunity I was missing 'till much later. I'd give Explorers two thumbs up, except that I think they belong up the bigoted Boy Scouts of America's ass.

Re:I was a "hacker" scout in 1994

[Ramin_HAL9001]

I had a similar experience in Boy Scouts. Someone in the Boy Scouts had the bright idea to send around invitations to a computer and software oriented extra-cirricular program, some guys at the local community college allowed us to use their computer lab. We learned things like how to put together a computer from components, and how to install MS-DOS from floppy disk. I was in the C programming group, and we learned the basics of the C language. The computer lab guys set us up with the Borland C compiler and we were off writing programs with "conio.h" for inventing fancy command-line programs.

Unfortunately, it was difficult to maintain interest after a while. We just ran out of ideas. Putting together a comptuer is so easy, even kids can do it in just a few hours, and so everyone shifted to the programming group where there weren't enough skilled instructors to teach everyone. Then, once you get the syntax down, programming is easy, but the more complex ideas related to computer science, like algorithms and data structures, are a bit too difficult for kids to understand. Even I didn't get it at the time.

If we had more skilled teachers, it might have worked out better. But that is always the problem, isn't it? How do find skilled teachers?

Re:I was a "hacker" scout in 1994

[Ramin_HAL9001]

I'd give Explorers two thumbs up, except that I think they belong up the bigoted Boy Scouts of America's ass.

That is so true. I was lucky, the Boy Scouts weren't as bad as they are now. Even so, the small college town I grew up in was so full of liberals, bigotry simply isn't an issue in our local troops. Discrimination may be the official policy of the Boy Scouts nowadays, but as long as there are liberals who know that it is wrong and who know how much of a positive influence the Scouts are to kids, discrimination will be hard to enforce.

Still, it would be nice if there were a more open, secular, perhaps even co-ed version of the scouts that were as popular. They exist, but not everywhere like the Boy Scouts do.

Re:I was a "hacker" scout in 1994

[stewartjm]

I was never into scouting, and at the time, early 80s/3rd grade, I think I was too young to be an explorer scout. But for a 3-5 year stretch, I participated in an explorer scout program at a neighbor's employer. The dues were $10-20 per year. And for that, I was able to play with/learn about a VAX 11/780, for 2-3 hours at a stretch, 1-2 times a month. I learned a bit of VMS, the operating system, though I never did master it. A bit of FORTRAN, again, I was clueless at the time, but I did find the occasional use for FORTRAN in the 90s. I also remember playing with solid object modelling and FEA software a bit. I think I also played Adventure, along with a few other games.

That single VAX, with about 1 MIPs of CPU power, 4 megabytes of RAM, a dishwasher sized 40 megabyte HDD(aka winchester disk), and ~2 similarly sized, but a good bit slower removable disk pack drives, was used by an entire mechanical engineering dept. It's amazing how far computing hardware has come over the last 30+ years.

I most remember some of the "weird", and now effectively obsolete hardware I used. Such as Tektronix vector terminals, which were their main workstation displays for the first 1-2 years I attended. They had been phased out by modern raster terminals by the 3rd year or so. And DECwriter terminals, which let you use the computer by seeing all of your typed input and output printed to fanfold green and white computer paper, rather than displayed on a CRT. If nothing else, the DECwriters were good for looking up things in the online help, which you could later reference while using a VT100.

Interesting!

[MacGyver2210]

I think it's an awesome idea, but I disagree with the name "Hacker Scouts". I think "Hacker" is and has always been a misnomer for the hobbyist-level of Electrical Engineering, Structural Engineering, Computer Science, etc, with a real focus on repurposing everyday items.

If you call it "Engineering Corps" or something like that, I could get behind it. I find it hard to believe you will have much support from the largely-brainwashed general masses using the term 'hacker'. "Being a hacker is bad! They take down websites and are against the government and order!" They don't know any better, because Fox News doesn't tell them any better.

Author must not know the kids of today too well

[eyenot]

Yeah let's hit the roster. We'll give it a "run down" and "audit" the in-tek of the pledges:

[private file]

Lil Billy. Three-four. Ten. One-twenty. Overweight and chubby. Calls daek skinned people "nigger" if his mom isn't hiding him under the flaps of her fringed leather biker jacket with the wolves painted on the back. Wants ta hunt rill good. Already fishes pritty good without hooking his thumb and ain't too fraida worms. His father comments on Billy's weight condition: "he'll outgrow that." Billy kniws computers are important but notices that girls see guys who thunk computers are important as icky, and he needs all the help he can get. RSVP says not attending this year's indoors away from home.

Little Jerome. The men in his father's side of the family, including his immediate family, are all members of the same gang. Almost half the younger women are members of the female gang counterpart. His father rapes his sister and smacks Jerome's face and legs with a cane. Jerome, six, dreams of one day abusing his father's handgun. He knows computers are for bitch ass nerds and has declined to attend the camp.

Teen Roger "Malfoy" (as his friends call him) says hacking is done in private in one's own home and believes the camp is a sting. Porn-phishing reveals that this potential Eagle/Mitnick grade scout knows nothing about security or DIY but has masturbated to dozens of cracker flicks. Recon produces a tape of the young man avoiding social contact at school by typing high-speed gibberish and speaking slowly to the screen as an aid in psychological projection. RSVP attending but his mom said no way.

Jonathan, twenty, wants to attend for all the wrong reasons and has sued the supreme court to be allowed to go. Dems and GOP both feel he has a good chance but only because they still understand neither technology, nor pedos, nor children.

Megan, black girl aged 9, wants to attend with her soul sister Whitney, white girl aged 7, and their mutual BFF (some other kid) because they actually, precocipusly as it may be, "get" the concepts behind the hacker scouts' conception. Megan's Dad is a special ops vet turned trucker, her mom is a drunk. They taught her principles that led to her abilities and early cognitive maturity, but still can't afford to send her. Whitney's parents won't let her go because they didn't know Megan was black and it really put a stop to their friendship, even though Megan's dad is white. The otger kid wants to go but unlike Megan, both of his parents are drunks, even though his dad is a fairly successful dot com enterpreneur and his mom is a bank accountant. They fight too much to listen to him, and if either one allows him to go it would be seen as favoritism and since e's the judge of the household, that can't be abided. He spends eleven hours a day on the computer and has no friends besides Megan and Whitney. At eight he's already contemplating suicide. He wished he could hack the bank account and bus tickets to go anyway but, catch 22, he doesn't know enough. Threw RSVPs to decline.

Re:Author must not know the kids of today too well

[Ramin_HAL9001]

Mod parent up, please.

I think what you are trying to say is, it won't help the people who really need help? Anyway, you're a great writer, and this was an awesome post.

Re:Author must not know the kids of today too well

[eyenot]

Thank you, your recognition of my point (as well as my style) is much appreciated. I would like to add that I was simultaneously suggesting that the camp might be arm-in-arm with the causes of problems that people need "help" from, and could just exacerbate some of those problems.

It's definitely possible

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a geek, software engineer, and a Scout leader here in Australia. It is important to keep the outdoors and practical camping skills in Scouting, but there is definitely an avenue for computing skills as well. I would love it if I were approached to be an examiner for a Venturer (teenagers aged 14-18) who wanted to use programming to earn one of the badges towards their Queen's Scout Award. Hasn't happened yet, because most teenagers I know have little interest in learning how to program.

Admittedly, one of my Venturers did need some assistance designing is website, so I helped him hack the PHP/JavaScript he'd got from some online template - and I think he learned a little bit about web "programming" as a result. (Yeah, I don't consider PHP or JavaScript proper programming languages either)

Boy Scout Explorers

[stox]

1978, we spent Tuesday evenings with full run of the computer ( IBM 370/158 ) at Exxon R&D. Occasional field trips to places like the Sarnoff Labs ( RCA ), and
Bell Labs. It was at Bell Labs I was introduced to C and Unix by Dennis Ritchie and Brian Kernighan. Little did I realize that I was going to make a career out of that.

"...we don't see 'leaderboards' for skills yet..."

[John Hasler]

Acquiring skills is a positive-sum game. We don't need to know who is "winning".

Sounds a bit like "Carl and Jerry"...

[Ellis D. Tripp]

A regular series from the old days of Popular Electronics magazine. Some of them are available online at:

http://www.copperwood.com/carlandjerry.htm

Re:Sounds a bit like "Carl and Jerry"...

[roc97007]

Well, like that, except funny.

Re:Scouts have Explorers

[TaoPhoenix]

Then they grew up, sans computer skills (some of them), and have Internet Explorer, drive Ford Explorer, and their kids watch rerun-DVD's of Dora the Explorer.

Badges, badges

[Anonymous Coward]

Badges! Badges! We don't need no stinking badges!

Don't come any closer!

Too late! Pwned!

Wait....

[bmo]

"MAKE Magazine asks: is it 'Time For Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts 2.0?' What might the future of education be like if it were based on online & earned skill badges, and what could the future of traditional organizations for kids, like the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, be like in a very modern, tech-savvy world?

Wasn't this answered decades ago when they came up with Explorers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_for_Life

Typical Explorer posts include groups of teenagers specializing in a field such as law enforcement, fire and emergency service, health careers, engineering, aviation, skilled trades, and technology. The majority of Explorer posts have an Explorer uniform that they have especially designed for wear during formal meetings and community service activities, a long-standing tradition dating from the time when Exploring was a traditional BSA program.

The organization is already there. Just use it.

--
BMO

Who would want online pedo charges?

[witherstaff]

The current boy scout handbook, before anything else, starts off with a dozen or so pages about sex abuse. There are very strict rules for troop leaders/helpers - always do things in pairs, etc. So who in their right mind would want to videochat or be a troop leader for a bunch of kids online - instant lawsuits.

Also yup, you have to be a believer. They are very lax on what qualifies as belief and accept almost any faith. They need a badge for 'technically following the letter of the rules' if someone is a pastafarian. It's a serious shame. I helped out as a co-leader with a local troop for a year and the issue didn't come up, I don't remember having to put my religious beliefs on any official paperwork. However I do know athiest troop leaders have been removed from news stories I've seen. It's hard enough to get participation in the boy scouts and girl scouts as it is. I doubt religion keeps many people from being involved.

Re:Who would want online pedo charges?

[K. S. Kyosuke]

The current boy scout handbook, before anything else, starts off with a dozen or so pages about sex abuse. There are very strict rules for troop leaders/helpers - always do things in pairs, etc

Such things instantly light up warning lights in my head - why the hell start a boy scout handbook with such a topic? Does that mean that this is their most rampant problem they are coping with? Does that in turn mean that BSA is a wholly fucked up institution full of sexual predators?

Re:Who would want online pedo charges?

[Ritchie70]

It's a recognition that such things happen, both in and out of scouting.

The intro booklet is not specifically about scouting. It's about protecting yourself from predators throughout your childhood, and is intended to be used by parent and child together.

Have the scouts had some problems? Sure. But I think it's a good thing to facilitate that talk between parent and child, because otherwise it probably isn't going to happen a lot of the time.

Re:Who would want online pedo charges?

[Hognoxious]

When you walk into a building and see fire extinguishers & signs pointing to emergency exits do you assume "oh shit, this place is about to turn into an inferno"?

It looks like they're taking realistic steps to deal with a problem, actual or potential; the start point is always recognizing it. Moreover, prevention pwns cure.

You think the approach the catholic church takes is better?

4H was sort of like that.

[Anonymous Coward]

4H used to have science stuff. (even though it was agriculturally based)

Whats with the gender groups anyway?

Would the uniforms

[hduff]

be T-shirts pre-stained with Cheetos?

A lot of this is already being done. Volunteer.

[enjar]

I guess they need to open their eyes and re-use what's already out there. There are plenty of youth organizations that already include technology in many ways. From my own personal life:

I've offered to help out co-worker's son and whatever other boys want to come to earn their Computers merit badge by giving them a full-on tour of our data center and then sticking around as long as it takes to answer whatever questions they might have about software development, testing, release, integration and whatever points of the software business they might like to know. We can go deep on languages, hardware, storage -- whatever. I'm really looking forward to it.

I also volunteer with the state Science Fair program as a judge. There is a hierarchy of competitions at the middle school and high school levels, and they are always looking for people with science and engineering backgrounds to help out. It's some of the most rewarding time I spend anywhere. The ingenuity, hard work and "i'm going to change the world" attitude some of these kids show up with is nothing short of amazing.

My daughter's elementary school has just started a FIRST / Lego Robotics team. There are already existing teams at the middle and high school levels. The school also sponsors a chess club, too.

I was a Scout in the 80's -- achieved Life, went to Philmont, Order of the Arrow. Lots of camping, lots of great leadership lessons and a lot of great experiences. I can say without qualification that I still use leadership skills I picked up in the Scouts to this day, as well as lots of other stuff that makes me useful around the house as well as at work. Plus I know how to play with fire and how to handle a firearm. One of my biggest regrets in life is not achieving Eagle, I wish I could do that over.

What I wish the Scouts had done over was their policy towards homosexuals. It just goes so far against the otherwise inclusive nature and ideal of Scouting. I recall meeting other Scouts at camp or at Philmont from other parts of the nation and world, and trading troop patches and stories. I wish we had more of that and a leadership who said "you know what, it's not right to malign people for pretty much any reason -- so let's include them and see what they can teach us". But no, we get fear and hate baked into the organization. It's pathetic. FWIW I'm very happy my daughter is in the much more inclusive and progressive Girl Scouts. This isn't lefty loopy stuff, either -- in case you haven't read the news, the military allows openly gay soldiers, state after state has ratified gay marriage and we have people in positions of leadership in both the private and public sectors who are gay.

i'd love to see "maker scouts"

[wierd_w]

The idea is not to expose kids to technology. They are surrounded by it already. They can't help but be "exposed."

The idea is to expose technology to the kids. Far too much of modern technology comes with the implied "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!", and not nearly enough "oh, you like the glowing green head projector? Here's how to make him have boobies on his head and a snidley whiplash mustache! And this button makes him sound like a chipmunk! Would you like your own big green glowing head projector? Awesome! Here's how I made mine!"

There is far too much compartmentalization in modern society, and due to that, there is a very large demographic that relies on children not being more savvy than them with tech. This is mostly in educational and political circles. This reliance makes a conflict of interest when it comes to tech; they teach just enough to use, but not enough to comprehend and adapt the tech. (They call this a wide variety of things, but the most common is "abuse" of the technology, or vandalism.)

Maker scouts would focus on kids that have already been exposed to the tech, and want to learn more. It would actively encourage novel applications of technology, and the creation of disruptive appliances. In short, it would be every technology teacher's nightmare come true, where the kids learn dangerous things like assembler, kernel hacking, lowlevel electronics and computer logic, and graduate from drawing penises on the lab computers, to creating network worms that do it for them.

I would really love to see something like this, but I realize that most people would consider this on par with having a terrorist training camp for cyber terrorists.

The idea is exactly the opposite though. Terror comes from ignorance, and learned helplessness more often than not. This would seek to break that trend. The kids that come out would know what real cyberwarfare is, and laugh at the antics paraded around on the news, like many of us do.

As an Eagle Scout myself...

[Anonymous Coward]

I 100% support implementing some kind of programming/robotics merit badge or course. Aside from your philosophical disagreements with the BSA (as an agnostic, I have many), it is a great way to introduce more kids to technology in a environment where they can learn how and why it operates, instead of just accepting that it does work and leaving it at that.

Re:As an Eagle Scout myself...

[Osgeld]

As an Eagle Scout myself, I know I learned many fundamentals of electronics, radio communication, metal working and even helped build a hero robot as a troop project. Really there is everything from wilderness survival (which is what pops into most peoples mind) and basket weaving, but in all if there is a topic, there is a badge where you can learn the basics as a child.

do I support the activities mentioned in the article? yes, but its amusing because its already there ...other than buy a 500 3d printer from us cause your kid needs to know something that will become a toaster in 20 years, but drafting and cad, which are useful skills are already a badge

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/MeritBadges/mb-DRAF.aspx

guess where I learned how to do it first?

Huh? Did they stop?

[jejones]

My sole experience in Scouting was with an Explorer post at what was then the Oklahoma City Western Electric works where my mother worked. A group of us (I remember two sisters and their brother and myself) went there, I forget how many evenings a week, and learned FORTRAN on an IBM 1130 and FOCAL and PDP-8 assembly language (on a PDP-8, of course). That would be around 1973 or 1974.

Re:Huh? Did they stop?

[Anonymous Coward]

Eagle scout here. Did an explorer post at Motorola. Same deal, few weeks doing basic business, design, creative problem solving, etc. That was late 90's.

My money is on "woman"

[F69631]

There are a couple of common reasons for people to convert to Christianity from atheism. Prison, serious illness and a sweet, really religious wife-candidate. I think these account for about 90% of the cases. #idonthavefactstobackthisup

Re:My money is on "woman"

[multipartmixed]

You forgot "wants to run for office"

hackers manifesto

[Anonymous Coward]

Another one got caught today, it's all over the papers. "Teenager Arrested in Computer Crime Scandal", "Hacker Arrested after Bank Tampering"...

Damn kids. They're all alike.

But did you, in your three-piece psychology and 1950's technobrain, ever take a look behind the eyes of the hacker? Did you ever wonder what made him tick, what forces shaped him, what may have molded him?

I am a hacker, enter my world...

Mine is a world that begins with school... I'm smarter than most of the other kids, this crap they teach us bores me...

Damn underachiever. They're all alike.

I'm in junior high or high school. I've listened to teachers explain for the fifteenth time how to reduce a fraction. I understand it. "No, Ms. Smith, I didn't show my work. I did it in my head..."

Damn kid. Probably copied it. They're all alike.

I made a discovery today. I found a computer. Wait a second, this is cool. It does what I want it to. If it makes a mistake, it's because I screwed it up. Not because it doesn't like me... Or feels threatened by me.. Or thinks I'm a smart ass.. Or doesn't like teaching and shouldn't be here...

Damn kid. All he does is play games. They're all alike.

And then it happened... a door opened to a world... rushing through the phone line like heroin through an addict's veins, an electronic pulse is sent out, a refuge from the day-to-day incompetencies is sought... a board is found. "This is it... this is where I belong..." I know everyone here... even if I've never met them, never talked to them, may never hear from them again... I know you all...

Damn kid. Tying up the phone line again. They're all alike...

You bet your ass we're all alike... we've been spoon-fed baby food at school when we hungered for steak... the bits of meat that you did let slip through were pre-chewed and tasteless. We've been dominated by sadists, or ignored by the apathetic. The few that had something to teach found us willing pupils, but those few are like drops of water in the desert.

This is our world now... the world of the electron and the switch, the beauty of the baud. We make use of a service already existing without paying for what could be dirt-cheap if it wasn't run by profiteering gluttons, and you call us criminals. We explore... and you call us criminals. We seek after knowledge... and you call us criminals. We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias... and you call us criminals. You build atomic bombs, you wage wars, you murder, cheat, and lie to us and try to make us believe it's for our own good, yet we're the criminals.

Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for.

I am a hacker, and this is my manifesto. You may stop this individual, but you can't stop us all... after all, we're all alike.

Fitocracy

[hammeraxe]

A good example of using these kind of RPG-like incentives is fitocracy.

We don't see 'leaderboards' for skills yet

[DerekLyons]

"we don't see 'leaderboards' for skills yet"

No, I hope, will we ever do so. Leaderboards encourage finding ways to rank high on the leaderboards, not the retention and extension of skills.

I read this too fast and thought it said

[Anonymous Coward]

Hooker Scouts.

As long as the badges aren't virtual

[Tastecicles]

...when the idea tanks and the decision is made to shut down the servers... *poof*, all that achievement, gone.

Some still can't read a map

[RogueWarrior65]

There have been a few rescues here in Arizona of boy scout troops who got lost or read their map wrong and only had two days of food and water for what turned out to be a four day hike.

A dozen merit badges easily

[Antique Geekmeister]

This could easily generate a dozen excellent merit badges, especially for Eagle Scouts. Hardware recycling projects or open source project creation would be wonderful. Preferably free software, but there are enough worthwhile Apache licensed projects to be worth doing. They could link conservation projects to hacking projects for tracking endangered species or park maintenance or scheduling urban renewal work.

Even simple tasks such as "build a server from scratch" could be awarded, and generate some early skills. I'd love to teach scouts how to handle equipment: the old skills of knot-tying and rope handling easily translate to skills of neat wiring that I'd welcome in new electronics and networking staff.

Re:A dozen merit badges easily

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, you seem to be mixing a lot of different things together without really understanding how Scouting works. Separating out merit badges and service projects, there's nothing preventing the use of technology in service projects and there are already many merit badges relating to technology. The use of applicable technology to achieve an objective is very much a part of Scouting today. What isn't common is the use of technology for the sake of using technology. Scouting uses the outdoors to develop leadership, teamwork, and problem solving skills, so skills relating to the outdoors make sense as a foundation. Anything else is fair game for merit badges, guest speakers, field trips, workshops, etc., but you can't expect it to displace the core focus of the program. If you want to get involved, take a look at the current merit badge requirements and register as a counselor for the applicable badge(s). If you have a plan that covers multiple badges (like, say, computers, electronics, and electricity), you could probably get some interest from local troops to hold regular sessions to work through the requirements.

Volunteer

[muridae]

My opinion of the Boy Scouts is pretty low; my opinion of the Girl Scouts depends on which troop and local they are with, since there is a lot of variance in what each Troop Mom allows. But why should it be necessary to replace the entire organization just to teach electronics, computers, and hacking skills? Get off the ideological high horse, and go offer to teach some scouts. If you don't agree with the policies of the scouts in your area, find an existing organization that you can help. A YMCA Open University, an after-school study program, any other program that already has the overhead covered. Starting from nothing is not the easy path to take, here. You'd have to negotiate for meeting spaces, cover the insurance costs, convince parents that you aren't a scary computer person teaching their kids to hack into banks and build killer robots, or worse. Then you need to get enough students enrolled, or you are just teaching your own kid. You'd need to get someone to teach the other age groups, or you'll be the only person teaching every group from k to 12; 13 meetings every 2 weeks will run you ragged. You'll need fund raisers to pay for computer parts if you get enough students. Even 5 students in each grade level works out to 65 kits. That's a lot of Arduinos, breadboards, soldering irons, etc. Do you have connection with the various fund raising companies that will sell you cookies/popcorn/wrapping paper cheap if you and your scouts sell it to other people? Do you have the cache to convince strangers that your scouts are legitimate, and they should give your troop money for overpriced cookies/popcorn/wrapping paper instead of buying from the boy/girl scouts?

In all, get out there and offer to volunteer at an existing facility. It'll be easier, and you'll be teaching the troop leaders or parents or staff as well as the students.

Look at the national leadership

[pavon]

The top leadership of the BSA is now dominated by members of the LDS church. All the controversial national polices are in place because of this. The non-LDS local units are stuck with the no-win decision of either going along with this or having an unstated rule that scouts and leaders should lie about their sexual orientation and religious beliefs. This goes against the fundamental principles that scouting was founded on.

As an Eagle Scout I refuse to do either of those things, and thus can no longer associate with the BSA.

No, not hack call them 'Maker scouts'!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hacker is the wrong term. Too easily taken the wrong way. Maker is much better and more aligned with what you want anyway!

Join forces with the Wonder Scouts

[Anonymous Coward]

http://scientificallybookish.blogspot.com/2011/10/we-were-wonder-scouts.html

        On my honor, I will do my best
        To confound the expectations of society,
        To observe the super-consciousness in all is workings,
        To seek independence in body, in intellect, and in spirit.

What a cool set of merit badges you could come up with between the two...
    Cryptzoology
    Navajo code talking
    Hardware reverse engineering
    Unmanned aerial photography
    Runes and symbols
    Neurolinguistic hacking

And you need a pinewood killer robot derby.

Let's Get This Started

[Anonymous Coward]

After reading the article and many of the posts associated with it I decided the best thing I could do was get the ball rolling to see if there is genuine interest. I just threw this together quick but hopefully it can serve as a starting point for something great. I like many of you believe that there is something very important about the outdoor aspect to the boy and girl scouts but I think that there needs to be more STEM subject involvement too. I am also concerned about the non-inclusive aspect of the boy scouts and believe that it is better to start a new fresh organization.

http://www.makerscouts.org/index.html

paramilitary brainwashing club

[rusl]

As long as we leave out the militarism, paedophilia and everything else lord baden powell.

Criminality as education

[Anonymous Coward]

By all means, create more hackers. Who needs the Internet?
Teach them to break street lights and paint graffiti on people's houses, while you're at it.

Tinkering School

[Anonymous Coward]

People who find this article interesting should watch http://www.ted.com/talks/gever_tulley_s_tinkering_school_in_action.html

Hacker Scouts?

[Anonymous Coward]

Scouts has never been an organization that teaches children how to become a burglar, how to break in to buildings or how to interrupt the daily operations of people and companies (i.e. hacking). On the contrary. It teaches children how to be a good and jolly citizen. How to give a helping hand to those in need.

We called it Explorer Scouts

[laughingskeptic]

Now it looks like it is called Learning For Life http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_for_Life. I founded an Explorer Post at the local community college in 1978 after a high school teacher told me it might give me free access to the college's computers ... and it did! They had an awesome set up for the era: an HP3000 with smart terminals. I learned Fortran and SPL. We learned to hack in Fortran and implemented a computer version of the game Risk in SPL. Our mentor patched our account creation into the bootloader after a while so our accounts wouldn't go away between semesters. I learned all kinds of stuff.