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Is It Time For Hacker Scouts?

ptorrone writes "MAKE Magazine asks: is it 'Time For Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts 2.0?' What might the future of education be like if it were based on online & earned skill badges, and what could the future of traditional organizations for kids, like the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, be like in a very modern, tech-savvy world? Social networks and the maker movement are the perfect intersection of where the kids of today are, but we don't see 'leaderboards' for skills yet; we only see them for video games. Is it time for Hacker Scouts?"

35 of 186 comments (clear)

  1. Badges by fph+il+quozientatore · · Score: 4, Funny

    You got the First Post badge!

    --
    My first program:

    Hell Segmentation fault

    1. Re:Badges by sconeu · · Score: 4, Funny

      Badges? We don't got no badges! We don't need no steenkin' badges!

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    2. Re:Badges by Ken_g6 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Badges? We don't got no badges! We don't need no steenkin' badges!

      Of course not. We just need achievements.

      --
      (T>t && O(n)--) == sqrt(666)
    3. Re:Badges by ArundelCastle · · Score: 2, Funny

      /=\ Help an Old Lady Across the Information Superhighway /=\

      "No Gramma don't click the red button... No don't click Confirm, that warning is lying to you."
      "No mom it's in the menu bar. The menu. At the top. Of the screen... Just let me remote in..."
      "Left-click. With the mouse. What? How big is the button? No, use the button on the top of the mouse, not the side."

      I would've earned every damn one of those badges. >_

    4. Re:Badges by citizenr · · Score: 3, Funny

      "No Gramma don't click the red button... No don't click Confirm, that warning is lying to you."
      "No mom it's in the menu bar. The menu. At the top. Of the screen... Just let me remote in..."
      "Left-click. With the mouse. What? How big is the button? No, use the button on the top of the mouse, not the side."

      I used to do that, now that I am over 30 I just tell people they are too stupid to use computers.

      --
      Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
  2. A Hacker is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    untrustworthy, disloyal, surly,
    angry, rude, mean,
    obstinant, cranky, greedy,
    anonymous, smelly, irreverent

  3. Is it time? by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, probably. Let's roll some tech into it.
    But do NOT lose the outdoor aspect. Camping, etc. Far, far too many kids have no clue what the "big green room with the blue and white ceiling" looks and smells like.

    1. Re:Is it time? by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The funny thing is, I remember computer camps being common in the 80s. Somehow as computers got more popular, computer camps got less so.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    2. Re:Is it time? by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 2

      Somehow as computers got more popular, computer camps got less so.

      They became appliances. Just like a TV, dishwasher, telephone. It's there in the house, it mostly works, everyone has one. Nothing special.

    3. Re:Is it time? by lightknight · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, I've seen that kind of 'appliance' thinking in action.

      That's why we have a weird schism. One generation which bankrupted us and couldn't fix a toaster to save their lives, another which could write a fair number of new OSs but is hamstrung on the financial issue, and another generation immediately thereafter which has acquired both generation's mistakes and understands neither finances nor technology. W00F!

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    4. Re:Is it time? by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      One generation which bankrupted us and couldn't fix a toaster to save their lives

      It does amaze me what people throw away.

      The other day I saw one of those clothes drying racks dumped in the street - 3 sections that fold flat for storage, in use they form a Z shape. One of the little plastic hinges was broken.

      My gran had one exactly the same. She'd replaced the broken hinge with a piece of cord braided back & forth so it was bendable but didn't slip. As a kid, I used to undo the braid. Then I learned not to undo it. Then I learned how to retie it after my brother came along and learned how to undo it. She must have got another twenty years out of it.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  4. Coder Dojo by Randyj70999 · · Score: 2

    There is a coder Scouts, called Coder Dojo http://coderdojo.com/

    1. Re:Coder Dojo by ackthpt · · Score: 2

      There is a coder Scouts, called Coder Dojo http://coderdojo.com/

      Scouts have Explorers. When I was in High School I was in a computer technology/electronics Explorer post. It was rad. First taste of computers, programming and stuff. Not a new idea.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  5. We already have an obesity problem by GeneralTurgidson · · Score: 2

    Kids need to be outside and learn useful things. The Internet is pretty easy to use, coding and configuring software is best left to teachers or summer camps. The scout programs really need to stick to their guns, don't spoil a good thing. Theyre one of the last bastions of real childhood enrichment.

    1. Re:We already have an obesity problem by ancienthart · · Score: 2
      Useful in that it gets kids to think beyond "That's just a stick and a board."

      I was raised on a small dairy farm, so we had to do a lot of our repairs, modifications and fabrication ourselves. Good old wire and bailing twine. :D

      I'm now a science teacher and am constantly surprised when some city (thus, supposedly more advantaged) kids freeze up at the idea of designing their own experiments or equipment. It's anecdotal, but it seems that the kids that have outdoor lives as well as books and computers, are the ones who come up with the coolest solutions.

    2. Re:We already have an obesity problem by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't know about you, but knowing how to tie knots, set up a tent, use a compass, etc are VERY useful to me, especially since I like camping. And by the way, once you get to the higher levels, your group can actually specialize. For instance, I helped set up an isolated telephone network that spanned multiple kilometers with only a single power source at our last 2 Jamborees. We also set up Internet connections for kids to contact home and for the on-site hospital (no joke) to diagnose problems as well as radio towers and a dispatch room. Pulling cat5 cable through underbrush is a unique experience that few people get.

  6. I'd like to direct your attention to... by roc97007 · · Score: 2

    ...a book published in 1965 called "the mad scientist's club". The main difference as I see it is that the kids did technical pranks and hardhacks outside in the sun and fresh air, a concept that would probably be considered abnormal now.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  7. Fine as is by twnth · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I do not think it is necessary to reform all organizations to match some illusionary techno elite mold.

    Scouts/Guides teach different skills, like what the sun looks like and how to get along with others, that are not well represented by the can't-lift-face-from-LCD crowd.

    Badges are about basic skills and sense of accomplishment (little milestones met). Leaderboards are about competition. Each has their merit.

    P.S. Get off my lawn

  8. No by Hentes · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Isn't the point of scouts is to get kids out of the basement to move and do something?

    1. Re:No by mianne · · Score: 2

      I'd say there's a huge difference between pwning n00bz in WoW for 15 hours a day and intensive hands-on training in AI, robotics, e-commerce, cryptography, rocketry, etc.. We have more than enough kids trained in the former, and so precious few skilled in the latter.

      --
      Javascript, cookies, flash, and ActiveX must be enabled in order to view this sig.
  9. Not really by bjdevil66 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, the core Scouting organizations could use online resources for organizational purposes or for some merit badges that could be done online.

    However, most of the valuable experiences from scouting can only be gained in person - experiencing things in real life. Camping. Swimming. Hiking. Shooting. Meeting people in various fields and getting a real education about a topic (even if it is cursory), Etc.

    However, online scouting would lose a lot of the value you get by interacting with live people who can share their experiences.

  10. Discrimination Issues by RCC42 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I just wanted to mention that the Boys and Girls scouts of America do not allow homosexuals into leadership positions, youth or adult.

    Moreover they completely bar atheists and agnostics from membership of any kind.

    Support them if you so desire but do so with full awareness of what you are supporting.

    1. Re:Discrimination Issues by flaming+error · · Score: 5, Informative

      The Girl Scouts have nothing to do with each other and entirely different philosophies.

      The Boy Scouts are basically structured to be the youth program for the mormon church.

      The Girl Scouts are far more warm, friendly, and liberal.

    2. Re:Discrimination Issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm a 48 year old Scout. I joined Boy Scouts at age 11 and have been a Scout or leader ever since. I'm an Asst. Scoutmaster (ASM) and have been for over 25 years now. I know about Scouting and its principles.

      I'm posting anonymously because I could be "fired" as a Scout leader for the things I'm about to say.

      The parent is incorrect in that Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are different organizations. Girl Scouts do not bar membership for homosexuals or atheists. Boy Scouts ban both. I HATE the fact that Boy Scouts does this and makes it their official policy.

      Why they do this is fairly straightforward. In addition to posthumously baptizing Jews who died in the holocaust, the Mormon church has Boy Scouts as its OFFICIAL youth organization for boys. They do not have Girl Scouts as the organization for their girls, for exactly the difference in stance noted above.

      As such, I HATE the Mormon church. They are ruining an organization that I love very dearly.

      My personal feeling is that Scouting should be about lots of things - having a moral code that asks you to treat others with kindness and respect, and helping them when you can. It should have NOTHING to do with sex, let alone sexual orientation, nor should it require a belief in God. Simply a "higher power" would suffice for me, and would be consistent with other groups such as AA.

      I have struggled with this for many years. I have friends who have had to leave my troop because they are gay. One was a very close friend. His departure was a huge loss for our troop (but happily a gain for a more enlightened organization). I have almost sent my Eagle Scout award to Scouting for All, an organization working to change BSAs position on these two things. (I wish I could send it... I worked too hard for it to mail it away... I still struggle with this) Regardless it would do little good. BSA cannot afford to lose the Mormons. The organization would probably fold if it did, so the Mormons have BSA by the short hairs, and there isn't much that can be done.

      On a brighter note, while there is no Hacking Merit Badge, there are merit badges for Computers, Electronics, Engineering, Geocaching, Inventing, and Robotics.

      And there are troops out there that only pay lip service to the 2 principles discussed above. For example, in my troop, there is no requirement to profess a belief in God, so long as one does not publicly proclaim atheism. No Scout or leader has ever been dismissed for being a homosexual, so long as that information remains private. It is essentially a "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy. As such, it is flawed and asks people to live a lie, and is still wrong. But its the best we can do under the circumstance, for if we left an openly homosexual leader in place, the National Council would revoke our Charter, and the entire troop would cease to exist.

      Like I said, I struggle with this. I don't ask for pity or praise. I feel like a coward. Because I am a coward. I tell myself about the greater good, and put it out of my mind. But what hurts the most is that my position and actions basically controvert the exact principles on which Scouting was founded.

      On my honor.... (do I have any?)
      I will do my best... (am I?)
      To do my duty to God and my Country... (what will God think of me not standing up for my friend?)
      To obey the Scout Law... (how many of those words have I broken now?)
      To help other people at all times... (unless they are an atheist or gay?)
      To keep myself physically strong
      Mentally awake... (I guess I still have this one)
      And morally straight... ('nuff said)

    3. Re:Discrimination Issues by demonlapin · · Score: 2

      A belief in a "higher power" is just a cop-out for belief in a deity. It has neither the rigor of belief in a deity that will hold you to account, nor the boldness of admitting none at all. If Scouting wants to maintain its insistence on belief in God, then it's entitled to - after all, it's a private organization. But don't be a fucking pussy about it.

      BTW, why not send in your certificate? You were awarded the Eagle; you earned it; you proved yourself. A principled resignation of your title does not diminish your accomplishments: it adds to them.

    4. Re:Discrimination Issues by flaming+error · · Score: 2

      > I HATE the Mormon church.
      I don't. I grew up in it, still belong to it I guess. It does good things. It does bad things. It's run by laypeople, many of whom are very sincere, many of whom are intelligent and reasonable, many of whom are genuinely Christ-like (turn-the-other-cheek as opposed to belligerent sanctimony).

      But collectively it is a global corporation with hordes of lawyers, accountants, and a budget many nations could envy, and it has considerable political clout. They really have hijacked the BSA with their own politics.

      AC, you shouldn't be ashamed for not tilting at windmills. We're all imperfect humans, some of us try to act with altruism. That the social routes available are imperfect shouldn't stop us from wielding them for good.

    5. Re:Discrimination Issues by Chelloveck · · Score: 2

      I feel your pain. I'm 45 and an Eagle Scout. It's one of my proudest achievements. My time in Scouts was invaluable. But, my time predated the BSA declaring itself to be a religious organization. I was (and am) agnostic, but my troop's leaders helped me define what "reverent" and "duty to God" can mean in that context. How I could uphold the spirit of those values if not the letter.

      Jump-cut to my own son in Scouts. In his troop you could be any religion you wanted -- so long as it was of Judeo-Christian origin. Lip service was given to other religions, but "none" was simply not an option. He quit when he was 13, primarily because he couldn't work within the strict letter-of-the-law policies. I couldn't even argue with his decision. He's right, it's not the place for him. It's a shame because he enjoyed the rest of it.

      I still think that overall, Boy Scouts is a great program. But the BSA is being spoiled by a few really backwards social policies.

      --
      Chelloveck
      I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
    6. Re:Discrimination Issues by Czech+Blue+Bear · · Score: 2
      Derek, you are insanely strict - your opinions are those of a fanatic demigod, not those of understanding human. Please try to spend some time between us mere mortals for a while. Struggle in the inside is still a struggle, although not publicly visible, and it is still worth some praise, even if you fail. It is very hard to fight an ideology you have genuinely trusted and served for many years. In fact, very few people are strong enough to win such a fight - and they will still end with a feeling they done something wrong.

      So, *maybe* the original commenter is a coward, but one who actively tries not to be one - therefore, he is better than most common people, and for myself, this is quite good. But I am also a coward, so maybe it's just he is one of my kin :-)

  11. This has definite hacker education potential. by sixtyeight · · Score: 2

    There are a lot of comments on the Boy and Girl Scout associations, but not yet many on the use of online merit badges as an alternative educational model.

    Imagine educational sites done easily in Drupal, in which users learned skills and knowledge sets about... well, anything. Skillsets disruptive to the status quo, for instance. Hacking. Encryption. True American Common Law. All manner of "disruptive" information. They could earn merit badges and level them up just as they do in an RPG, and display or link them on social networking sites and in their .sig files on sites like Slashdot. As they promoted their learning and interests, others would notice and learn about them as well if they found the material interesting. From there, it's not much of a stretch to imagine them getting together in online forums of interest groups. And then you'd have an alternative model of information distribution from the mainstream media. You'd also have a mechanism for giving people the skills they need to overcome the status quo.

    As a bonus, geeks who created sites like that could charge users a negligible amount of BitCoins in monthly dues once they'd leveled past a certain point. The interesting part would be that the moment users became responsible for monthly dues, they would also be eligible for a portion of dues paid by any other new users they'd brought to the site. It would provide some great incentive for users to not only promote awareness by displaying the badges they'd earned, but also mentoring their recruits - thus assisting in the transmission of the information. Anyone doing that actively would find learning and teaching skills of interest to them online would be a sort of profit model, and that they were accruing far more from it than they were paying out.

    By making it fun, easy, interesting and profitable, it would be very easy to imagine this model catching on among the mainstream Facebook crowd who are currently sitting around playing FarmVille instead. And thus, you'd have a means of bringing the mainstream back to reality and fixing society while making money for yourself in the process.

    --
    The Wolfpack Project: BitCoin + Crowdfunding = Political Accountability
  12. I was a "hacker" scout in 1994 by sdguero · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's called an "explorer post." My troop was hosted by a kids Dad who was an engineer at a company that made Mars rover prototypes for NASA. We made websites for ourselves to start out, which they hosted on the companies web server (*nix running apache), and after we learned http we made websites for for car dealerships and other small businesses to raise money for the post. Among the many cool activities we did, they also let us program very expensive Mars rover prototypes to walk around and explore the office and we had challenges to see who could program the best runs etc...

    That experience, and having a computer in my room at very young age, are probably the two biggest reasons why I ended up choosing a career in Engineering. I have often thought that if I ever get off my lazy butt to do something good for the community it would be a technology explorer post like the one I was lucky enough to get into.

  13. Boy Scout Explorers by stox · · Score: 2

    1978, we spent Tuesday evenings with full run of the computer ( IBM 370/158 ) at Exxon R&D. Occasional field trips to places like the Sarnoff Labs ( RCA ), and
    Bell Labs. It was at Bell Labs I was introduced to C and Unix by Dennis Ritchie and Brian Kernighan. Little did I realize that I was going to make a career out of that.

    --
    "To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
  14. Sounds a bit like "Carl and Jerry"... by Ellis+D.+Tripp · · Score: 2

    A regular series from the old days of Popular Electronics magazine. Some of them are available online at:

    http://www.copperwood.com/carlandjerry.htm

    --
    Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
  15. i'd love to see "maker scouts" by wierd_w · · Score: 2

    The idea is not to expose kids to technology. They are surrounded by it already. They can't help but be "exposed."

    The idea is to expose technology to the kids. Far too much of modern technology comes with the implied "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!", and not nearly enough "oh, you like the glowing green head projector? Here's how to make him have boobies on his head and a snidley whiplash mustache! And this button makes him sound like a chipmunk! Would you like your own big green glowing head projector? Awesome! Here's how I made mine!"

    There is far too much compartmentalization in modern society, and due to that, there is a very large demographic that relies on children not being more savvy than them with tech. This is mostly in educational and political circles. This reliance makes a conflict of interest when it comes to tech; they teach just enough to use, but not enough to comprehend and adapt the tech. (They call this a wide variety of things, but the most common is "abuse" of the technology, or vandalism.)

    Maker scouts would focus on kids that have already been exposed to the tech, and want to learn more. It would actively encourage novel applications of technology, and the creation of disruptive appliances. In short, it would be every technology teacher's nightmare come true, where the kids learn dangerous things like assembler, kernel hacking, lowlevel electronics and computer logic, and graduate from drawing penises on the lab computers, to creating network worms that do it for them.

    I would really love to see something like this, but I realize that most people would consider this on par with having a terrorist training camp for cyber terrorists.

    The idea is exactly the opposite though. Terror comes from ignorance, and learned helplessness more often than not. This would seek to break that trend. The kids that come out would know what real cyberwarfare is, and laugh at the antics paraded around on the news, like many of us do.

  16. Huh? Did they stop? by jejones · · Score: 2

    My sole experience in Scouting was with an Explorer post at what was then the Oklahoma City Western Electric works where my mother worked. A group of us (I remember two sisters and their brother and myself) went there, I forget how many evenings a week, and learned FORTRAN on an IBM 1130 and FOCAL and PDP-8 assembly language (on a PDP-8, of course). That would be around 1973 or 1974.

  17. Re:As an Eagle Scout myself... by Osgeld · · Score: 3, Informative

    As an Eagle Scout myself, I know I learned many fundamentals of electronics, radio communication, metal working and even helped build a hero robot as a troop project. Really there is everything from wilderness survival (which is what pops into most peoples mind) and basket weaving, but in all if there is a topic, there is a badge where you can learn the basics as a child.

    do I support the activities mentioned in the article? yes, but its amusing because its already there ...other than buy a 500 3d printer from us cause your kid needs to know something that will become a toaster in 20 years, but drafting and cad, which are useful skills are already a badge

    http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/MeritBadges/mb-DRAF.aspx

    guess where I learned how to do it first?