Foxconn "Glad That Mike Daisey's Lies Were Exposed"

theodp writes "Foxconn Technology Group, Apple's largest supplier and the target of allegations of poor work conditions, welcomed a retraction of a This American Life radio program episode it said was based on lies. 'I am happy that the truth prevails, I am glad that Mike Daisey's lies were exposed,' Louis Woo, a spokesman for Taipei-based Foxconn said. 'People will have the impression that Foxconn is a bad company,' Woo added, 'so I hope they will come and find out for themselves'. Foxconn also said that it has 'no plans to take legal action.'"

Comments

I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Anonymous Coward]

Wasn't the problem here not that what Daisey reported was false, but just that he didn't directly speak to people he claimed to speak with? Of course from a journalistic standpoint that is awful but it is now sweeping these problems under the rug.

Foxconn can now act like there were no problems and ignore them just because the source used was a secondary source reported as a primary source.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Pecisk]

What would difference it would make if this was real? Apple looking for another producer? Apple fanbois suddenly starting to believe that their beloved company isn't all controled peace and happiness?

Get real, that's China. And how someone pointed out, things like these have been going for years, and not only for Apple. And as long as they will produce stuff cheapily and we will be happy to buy it - it won't change a thing. They still be billions piss poor people.

Unless China produced stuff gets heavy tarrifs (and every country who does it gets thrown out from WTO), it ain't gonna happen.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Maury Markowitz]

> but just that he didn't directly speak to people he claimed to speak with

No.

"The China correspondent for the public radio show Marketplace tracked down the interpreter that Daisey hired when he visited Shenzhen China. The interpreter disputed much of what Daisey has been saying on stage and on our show."

Basically he stated that all of the "bad stories" were simply made up.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[jeffmeden]

Wasn't the problem here not that what Daisey reported was false, but just that he didn't directly speak to people he claimed to speak with? Of course from a journalistic standpoint that is awful but it is now sweeping these problems under the rug.

Foxconn can now act like there were no problems and ignore them just because the source used was a secondary source reported as a primary source.

It's hard to argue that second hand information is anywhere near as good as firsthand information; this is something that most people learn in kindergarten. But your point is essentially valid; all of the things Daisey said are now "lies" instead of vague, possibly true claims. It will be a LOT harder to prove any of it is true (even though speculation has been circulating for a LONG time.) I somehow doubt Daisey really cares, though. He is as famous as he could want to be, and probably sleeps peacefully on top of a big pile of money.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[omfgnosis]

While Daisey certainly needs to answer for misrepresenting himself (to This American Life), most of the damage that I've seen has been done by a poorly educated and reactionary audience that doesn't understand that it's unreasonable to hold a creative activist to the same journalistic standards that, quite frankly, we don't hold journalists to either. Like so many of the controversies on "our side" (and I'm assuming we have some sort of common cause if you think Foxconn acting with impunity is harmful), we have a role that as a whole we simply aren't prepared—in mind or in temperament—to execute.

Everyone involved here did their job, until it came to us. Mike Daisey's job was to prepare a piece that formulated a story from truths that would make an audience care passionately about those truths, thereby pressuring the actors involved. This American Life checked facts and disputed those it found questionable or inaccurate. We did not articulate, with clarity and principle, articulate the above.

It's too easy to say that one guy with a stage performance did so much harm, just as it's too easy to say that he'd done so much good.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[TWX]

I don't think that tariffs will help specifically, but if China would stop forcing an exchange rate with their currency then the problem would, to an extent, fix itself as China's currency becomes more expensive.

What we really need to do, IMHO, is to recognize the somewhat confrontational relationship we actually have with China, and to stop sending proprietary processes to China for manufacture. That might mean that China still makes the plastics and the PCB, but the parts get shipped here for soldering and final assembly. The best way to reduce the speed of knockoff copying is to not engage in manufacture in a place that essentially encourages knockoff copying. Sure, it'll still happen, but it'll take longer, especially when new devices eventually come out where the processes have changed and can't be instantly replicated in that environment.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[omfgnosis]

The difference it can make and has made is that Apple has consistently responded to pressure to be more open about its labor practices, and they have enough economic weight to throw around to make real (but perhaps not fundamental) change in at least their supply chain—which is substantial on its own—but even probably in the electronics market overall.

Apple doesn't necessarily need to leave Foxconn (or any other supplier) to make them change their labor policies; the pressure of audits with accountability can go a long way, under enough social pressure. And say what you want about Apple's fanatic following, it certainly exists, but it also has a demographic tendency to be more inclined to apply pressure on labor abuse.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[omfgnosis]

The stories, yes. The actual topics, no.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[rwhamann]

Overreact much? What GP is implying (I think) is that this is a systemic problem - killing one company, Foxconn, over this only hurts their current employees without really changing the overall status quo. In fact, the recent inspection by a worker's rights group said that Foxconn was pretty progressive in worker treatment - for China. None of this will change unless China passes and/or enforces OSHA-like worker protection laws or consumers demand "worker-fair" products and pay for them.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[zero.kalvin]

Please explain.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[sycodon]

So...Fake, but accurate?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[LDAPMAN]

"creative activist"?? What the hell is a creative activist? Oh, it's someone who lies because the ends justifies the means.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Goaway]

It would be nice if we could just snap our fingers, and suddenly everyone would have great working conditions, and enough money to live well on.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. A society has to work its way up. And companies like Foxconn are the the forefront of that. They pay better and have better working conditions than the average. Once enough people reach a higher standard of living, they can start demanding more, and so on.

By attacking the ones that offer the better situation for workers, you are holding the entire process back.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[strength_of_10_men]

Foxconn can now act like there were no problems and ignore them just because the source used was a secondary source reported as a primary source.

I'm just now listening to TAL's retraction show and I think that Mike Daisey, being more than just a pompous self-serving douche, has now just achieved the exact opposite of what he was purporting to do.

With all the press that Daisey and his show have gotten before he was exposed, all the public will think now, by glimpsing the current headlines, is that everything he said is a lie and they can effectively dismiss any real problems as exaggerations.

This is just sad for everyone trying to improve real problems with the working conditions in Chinese electronics plants.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Anonymous Coward]

This is right. I saw his performance and it was amazing. It was obviously over the top and used melodrama and lots of artistic license. I don't think anyone in the audience believed it 100%. That really wasn't the point. The point was to make emotional connections between the devices and the working conditions, which as other proper journalists have found, are egregious. His show served to make it visceral which it did. He's clearly not a journalist, and shouldn't've gone on TAL without big caveats.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[greyc]

(Note: I am neither of the AC ancestors, but I'm pretty sure I understand their position, so I'll try to explain it regardless)

The critical difference here is that those Chinese workers are /not/ slaves. They are not forced into taking jobs at foxconn; they take these positions voluntarily, just like people in western countries do, because they think it's a favorable trade for them.

Why do they do this? Because as bad as the working conditions and pay at companies like Foxconn are by western standards, they are very competitive compared to the local alternatives. This point is crucial: Foxconn are not exploiting people in the sense that all else being equal, the people who work for them would be better off just not doing so.

You can make an argument that people living in sufficient poverty to make such a deal favorable is a terrible thing, and I'd agree with that. However, destroying Foxconn's business model by preventing them from selling to western countries does nothing directly to fix these people's poverty; in fact it makes it worse, by reducing the pool of jobs available to them (and not just randomly reducing it; you're taking away some of the best jobs in the pool!).

As an analogy, think of how you'd react if people in a hypothetical country that's even more wealthy than your's decided that your working conditions are far too horrible for your pay, and somehow stopped jobs like the one you have right from being offered anymore, resulting in you having to choose a worse job instead. Would that make your life better? Would you be happy about it? It's the same thing here.

The above is how the simple economic argument goes. Real economies and societies are complicated, of course, and there's several vectors by which driving Foxconn out of business oculd potentially improve the situation for common workers in China. But those aren't clear to me (and aren't clear to various other people who've looked at the issue) - the direct, obvious and robust effect is strongly negative. If you're going to argue that there are other effects compensating for it, it would be good to present your reasoning or link to other people arguing for the above reasoning being incorrect.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[omfgnosis]

A creative activist is an activist who does creative work in the course of their activism. I haven't posted on Slashdot for a while, I forgot what a lot of pedants you all are.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[ScentCone]

OK, so hexane poisoning is a "topic." Another topic would be Apple's plans for a Mars colony. Just because you can name a topic doesn't mean that the actual issue at hand is meaningful. The guy who made it meaningful for legions of We Hate Apple whiners has been shown to have been completely BS-ing. So, it's your turn to be specific on the scale and nature of the issue, rather than just running around and shouting "hexane poisoning is a topic!"

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Anonymous Coward]

That sounds like how a Rick Santorum fan would justify his controversial views.

Let's face it, lying to get people on your side is detestable, and using euphemisms like "creative activist" in place of lying is doing him (and yourself) no favors.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Sentrion]

BTW, freeing the slaves was never a bad idea, but many freed slaves suffered horribly after emancipation. Not that their living conditions were that great before hand, but after the Civil War there were many known cases of entire communities of plantation owners who hired freed slaves on the condition that the freed slaves would be paid after the harvest. But after the harvest, instead of paying what they promised, the ex-masters drove the workers off their land by force and it is believed that thousands starved to death during this time.

And in the case of China, if the "free world" were to ban Chinese imports, China would fall into a severe depression. Unemployed workers would be very angry, as would the Chinese government. There's a slim chance this could lead to a general uprising that could lead to democracy, but more likely is that an over populated and well armed China with nothing to lose would absorb the unemployed men of fighting age into their armed forces, direct the anger of their masses toward the West, and obtain by military force what they could not obtain through commerce. Even in full scale war, such as an invasion of Japan and Taiwan, coupled with supporting N. Korea against the South, the US would likely not be the first to strike with nuclear weapons. And with an expanding military that has been growing more technologically adept, China probably would not see any reason to use their own nuclear weapons unless their home territory came under heavy bombing or invasion.

As an anecdote to support my position, during WWII the WMD of the time was poison gas, which both the Allied and Axis powers possessed in significant quantities, yet neither side resorted to using gas in spite of the scale and devastation of the war. So I don't believe that America's nuclear deterrence would be enough to prevent a conventional war with China.

So, the only option left for those of us who care about human rights and the treatment of workers who make the goods we consume, is we need to proactively seek out products that are manufactured and marketed in an ethical manner. Just as "organic" has become trendy to the point that well-to-do consumers will pay three or four times as much money for pesticide free vegetables, we need to make ethical and sustainable business practices just as "trendy". Kind of like the parable of the contest between the wind and the sun to see who could take the jacket off from a pedestrian. The wind blew harder and harder, but could not blow it off, but the sun just stood still and effortlessly warmed the path of the pedestrian until the pedestrian decided to take off his jacket. In time perhaps "ethically and sustainably manufactured in China" will be the new trendy "organic" label that Yuppies will wear with pride.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Grygus]

This is, of course, nonsense. What is holding the entire process back is greed.

Apple makes large margins on the sales of iProducts. If they were interested, they could pass some, not even a lot, of that back to their suppliers and conditions there would improve. But they do not; they keep those margins, which are as large as they are precisely because they pay their suppliers as little as possible.

These people are in poor working conditions, not because it is inevitable, but because it is cheap.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Anonymous Coward]

Tariffs WILL help.
Even if tariffs do not fix everything, by not wholeheartedly supporting tariffs we (as a nation) are telling business that they _should_ treat people as machines and not respect overtime pay, workman's compensation, protection against all forms of discrimination, sexual harassment, employing minors in unsafe jobs, burning poisonous waste or dumping it in the rivers... even beating and MURDERING union and environmental 'agitators'. Currency manipulation is only a small contributor towards the unfair trade, when you also consider the rest of this paragraph.

America has only two choices in these matters if we want to retain manufacturing:
a) Adopt all of China's policies domestically (turning the US into China), or
b) declare China's polices as an "unfair trade advantage", and slap tariffs on imports until China reforms.

The third way - which the US does now - just has the net effect of turning Americans against each other, as is being done in Wisconsin and Ohio elections which seek to destroy unions. Given that the US is a 2-party state, this is going to further polarize the country, dangerously.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[sribe]

Hexane poisoning.

Which did not happen at Foxconn, FYI.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[gnasher719]

Wasn't the problem here not that what Daisey reported was false, but just that he didn't directly speak to people he claimed to speak with? Of course from a journalistic standpoint that is awful but it is now sweeping these problems under the rug.

No, that was not the problem. As an example, Apple's "Supplier Responsibility" report says that Apple found a few dozen cases in total where people were employed before they were sixteen, but this was because of errors and improper age checking. So if Apple said the truth then it would be very, very unlikely that a journalist at the entrance of a Foxconn factory would spot anyone who is not sixteen yet. It would be impossible to find anyone who is 12, 13, or 14. But that is exactly what he claimed, which would make Apple liars.

Next, some people were injured through chemicals. You would think that if things are done right, workers who get injured go to hospital, get treated until they are fine, and come back fine and go back to work. And that's what Apple's report says. Daisey said he met many workers who were so ill that they couldn't even lift a glass. That is a completely different matter. If workers either didn't get treatment, or are so bad even after treatment, then the situation is hundred times worse than Apple claimed.

So there are two lies already that made Apple and Foxconn look an awful lot worse than they should.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[poly_pusher]

Exactly... These are people who are leaving impoverished villages and lining up at places like Foxconn, fighting tooth and nail to get a job there. Their kids will go to school and get a chance to become more than their factory-line worker parents. We have no right to do anything unless people are being forced against their will and they are not...

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Anonymous Coward]

And I wish you understood that in a developing country (which China is, to a large extent), bad wages are better than no wages.

Yes, that article was written by, that Paul Krugman.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Lumpy]

Places like Foxconn are what forced Unions into existence and labor laws to come into place.

Paying rent to the company and being forced to buy from the company store IS a form of slavery, Sorry you are too uneducated to see that, or you are just plain old evil and think it's a wonderful thing. The poor conditions in the factory are because the company owners are such greedy assholes that it's cheaper to kill workers than make it a safe place to work. They have far higher profit margins that way. If we did not have the labor laws and unions here in the USA we would be still doing the same thing. AS a greedy rich scumbag asshole knows no border or nationality.

What I find entertaining is that the american public is up in arms over it. We demand low price things yet refuse to pay for things like living wages and safe workplaces for the people that make the latest shiny. The people claiming that it's only 20% of a price difference are complete morons.

To build a ipad in the USA, you will be paying $18-37 an hour. Your factory will be required to meat all OSHA and EPA standards. The manufacture cost of a single iPad will jump to at least $1100.00 add a 40% markup and now you have a 16gig ipad base model selling for $1599.00

The public would be up in arms and clamoring that it's a rip off! ZOMG! TOO EXPENSIVE!. we look the other way so we can have our slave labor cheap devices.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[j-beda]

Not to defend Daisey, but monologists who get their stories covered by public radio shows do not sleep on big piles of money. Not even small piles.

Too lumpy.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Sechr Nibw]

...they could pass some, not even a lot, of that back to their suppliers and conditions there would improve...

That is assuming that the suppliers would then pass that money on to their workers. But why would they do that? Is it because only Apple is a greedy corporation, whose aim is to make money, and all other companies (suppliers) are benevolent, aiming only to improve conditions for their workers?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Bucc5062]

I see...no culpability by a totalitarian government here...

1 - Make life conditions horrible for population
2 - Offer sightly less horrible conditions in factory
3 - ???
4 - Profit, and repeat step 1

I keep seeing this argument pop up, "hey, at least its better then the farm" like it is a good moral position. In this example, China does not seem to interested in improving the lifestyle of their rural population for it would undercut a steady supply of workers in the factory. The human becomes part of the machine and like any part, when it goes bad, just replace for we have a large inventory in stock.

That is how your argument reads under the BS about its better then the alternative. I imagine that the government would not want to consider more humane, western labor laws for two reasons, there would be larges amount of people dropping their agro tools and flocking to cities for work, but higher wages, less work time, safer conditions means that companies have to pay more for labor and thus take off for "greener" pastures in less enlightened countries. Now what do you do will all those people that has hopes for a job.

Foxconn will continue to exist, because we feed the machine by buying stuff made there, and because the government needs Foxconn to help keep the populous if not happy, at least quiescent with the idea of a better life.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[gnasher719]

Exactly... These are people who are leaving impoverished villages and lining up at places like Foxconn, fighting tooth and nail to get a job there. Their kids will go to school and get a chance to become more than their factory-line worker parents. We have no right to do anything unless people are being forced against their will and they are not...

Fact is that a young person starting a job at Foxconn, doing lots of overtime, saving money by sleeping in a cheep dorm, can save up an awful lot of money in a years time. I'm sure working at McDonalds in the USA is nicer than working at Foxconn. If you are a young person in the USA who wants to become a lawyer, for how long would you have to work at McDonalds to save enough money to finance this? If you are a young person in China, how long would you have to work at Foxconn?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[gfxguy]

I think people miss that point... the foxconn employees work for foxconn, not apple. Apple pays foxconn what foxconn negotiated. Foxconn could turn around and ask for more when the contract is up so that it could pay it's workers more, but then some other company would likely outbid them. Apple could take the high road and making higher pay for foxconn's workers part of the contract, but that's generally not how it works.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[El Torico]

The biggest reason that overall it never has and never will work like that is that people are easy to make. Only when massive population decreases occur does the average rate for labor increases. The global population is increasing exponentially, so unless global economic growth grows as rapidly or more rapidly, then there isn't going to be global middle class. The middle class (as it's redefined by each country) will grow in some places and decline in others.
This is where the economists all chime in saying "free trade is good for everyone" and "it's not a zero-sum game". The truth is if the pie doesn't grow as fast as the number of seats at the table, there's always going to be more losers than winners.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[jeffmeden]

He's a one-man act that (at least up to this point) sold out very large auditoriums (think: small, successful rock band without any of the overhead and only one person gets ALL the money). I don't imagine he took all the proceeds from that and gave it to some charity, do you? Selling books makes for a decent career, too, and nothing moves books like controversy (right or wrong).

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Americano]

And if his "creative" work involves "creating" facts that are reported on national news as facts, that's okay?

And if Fox News decided to start calling Anne Coulter a "creative activist" - I mean, she writes books, that's creative! - you'd be okay with them reporting, "Anne Coulter says President Obama isn't even an American - he was born in Kenya, and he's a Muslim!" After all, she's creative, and an activist... TRUTH doesn't matter in the news, as long as it's for a "creative" cause, right?

I forgot what a lot of pedants you all are.

What you're calling pedantry is really just people calling you out for the ridiculous logical contortions you're twisting yourself into in order to justify Daisey's lies - presented as fact - "because they're activism for a good cause."

They asked him for the contact info for the translator he used so they could corroborate his stories. He refused to provide that info. If you don't want your stories fact-checked, don't present them to the world as fact.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[oh_my_080980980]

Actually This American Life made this a big deal. Killing the messenger while ignoring the message. Let's ignore the fact that workers were poisoned at factory and focus on the fact that Daisey didn't visit that factor. Yeah that's what really matters. *Eye Roll*

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[StikyPad]

By attacking the ones that offer the better situation for workers, you are holding the entire process back.

That's only true all else being equal. But since Foxconn is the largest electronics manufacturing company in China, and indeed the world, it makes sense to start there, the same way regulations here affect large companies first, and small companies later (if ever). It's great that they're currently offering better conditions than other companies, but that's no reason they can't continue to improve. That's not holding the process back, it's driving it forward.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[umghhh]

It would be nice if we could just snap our fingers, and suddenly everyone would have great working conditions, and enough money to live well on.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. A society has to work its way up. And companies like Foxconn are the the forefront of that. They pay better and have better working conditions than the average. Once enough people reach a higher standard of living, they can start demanding more, and

watch their jobs go to Zamunda.

I fixed that for you :)

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[shoppa]

I think that it would be more accurate to say, that Daisey took bits and pieces of various real stories, all of them reported by actual journalists, put these details in rearranged form into a fictionalized monologue, and that became a TAL segment.

Daisey's monologues should be compared with say Upton Sinclair's _The Jungle_. That wasn't actual factual journalism, it was muckraking, a fictionalized account including some examples from real life. I don't think there's anything wrong with muckraking.

When public radio starts running TAL right alongside real new programs, then things get confusing. I think TAL did an interesting and intellectually correct thing by essentially fact-checking the monologue and turning that into a story.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[MightyMartian]

They're doing exactly the same thing that our own ancestors did in the 18th century when the Industrial Revolution kicked into high gear. They went and worked in deplorable conditions (far worse than anything at Foxconn) in the hopes of creating a better life for their children. It took a while, and ultimately governments were forced to get involved and put limits on hours per day, child labor and so forth, but in the end, by the middle of the 19th century you began to see the middle class forming, and it was the middle class that ultimately began imposing its will on the political classes.

I don't think there's a way around this. I don't think there's a way to go from agrarian society straight into industrial society. The Soviets and the Chinese tried it, and by and large it failed (think Great Leap Forward here, probably responsible for more deaths than any other single policy in human history). The way it's happening in China is, to one extent or another, exactly how it happened elsewhere. At some point, doubtless, the scales will tip and the middle class in China will want the political power that is commensurate to their economic power.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[gnasher719]

I think that it would be more accurate to say, that Daisey took bits and pieces of various real stories, all of them reported by actual journalists, put these details in rearranged form into a fictionalized monologue, and that became a TAL segment.

That's not what happened. First, where are the "real stories"? Second, he added in very significant ways. So instead of a few cases where someone was hired who was too young, his story that all you have to do is wait at the entrance of the Foxconn factory and you will see lots and lots of 12, 13 and 14 year old children. And instead of people being poisoned, going to hospital, recovering and going back to work, he changed it to people being poisoned and having their health permanently destroyed to the point where they couldn't even lift up a glass.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[steelfood]

In the past, we used to call them bullshit artists. Or confidence men: They take you into their confidence and trick you into giving something up. In This American Life's instance, what they got tricked to give up is credibility.

Has political correctness come the the point where we can't call a pig a pig? Or an ass an ass?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Ihmhi]

The critical difference here is that those Chinese workers are /not/ slaves. They are not forced into taking jobs at foxconn; they take these positions voluntarily, just like people in western countries do, because they think it's a favorable trade for them.

I understand this and the rest of your post, but they are about as close to getting to slaves as they can be. A lot of them are there because they literally have no chance at a better life without having to go through all the insane hours at Foxconn.

Your first sentence alone could be used in a similar way: "the slaves aren't running away from the fields or complaining much lately, so they must really like it here!" No, they're there because they really do not have much of a choice. I mean, they do in a technical sense. I'm sure they could leave and go back to the countryside to live in a hovel with a dirt floor and absolutely 0 contact with the outside world. That's better than nothing, right?

Argh, the logical leaps that some of us make to assuage our guilt about the shit ways people are treated in other countries! The ones who make our shiny gadgets, children's toys, and a vast majority of the stuff we use everyday, no less!

And yes, I am full well aware that I am using something also made somewhere in China or Southeast Asia. If I had a "buy American" option for electronics I'd take it, although right now I'm killing time at a public library so I don't have much in the way of choice on what sort of computer I use.

Right now the only thing I can really reliably and consistantly buy American are cigarettes and socks.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[shoppa]

I think Daisey using Foxconn's name in relation to the Hexane poisoning was probably the tipping point. A hexane poisoning incident did happen but it was a different company, Wintek. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/22/chinese-workers-apple-nhexane-poisoning Daisey using Foxconn's name made his monologue sound too much like journalism which it never was. But it was good muckraking.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[hpoul]

I hope everyone agrees that it was just wrong to talk about it in a news radio show as fact.. but his one man show/whatever can indeed make the story more engaging by displaying events.more first hand than he has really witnessed.. creative work is just there to make you think about it and find out what is true and what isn't - and to what degree.. the original radio show even had a discussion about what is known and real, and what is questionable, but it obviously didn't go far enough.. people just have to learn that news can only have one truth, while story tellers, comedians, etc can exaggerate to a degree (they definitely shouldn't lie about whats true and what isn't when asked outside their show... obviously)

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Seraphim1982]

Except there wasn't any evidence of workers being poisoned at the factory. Rather there was a previously reported story that occurred several years ago and a thousand miles away that Daisey put into his monologue.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[omfgnosis]

And if his "creative" work involves "creating" facts that are reported on national news as facts, that's okay?

As I said in another response, it depends on the nature of the fabrication. For Mike Daisey to do some research and discover that workers are suffering n-hexane poisoning, then to claim that he met such a worker when he did not, is a lie about his activities but not about a salient fact. It's well within the range of behaviors we rightly expect in a dramatization.

And if Fox News decided to start calling Anne Coulter a "creative activist" - I mean, she writes books, that's creative! - you'd be okay with them reporting, "Anne Coulter says President Obama isn't even an American - he was born in Kenya, and he's a Muslim!" After all, she's creative, and an activist... TRUTH doesn't matter in the news, as long as it's for a "creative" cause, right?

To be honest, yes I would be okay with them reporting that quote—even if they don't call her a "creative activist". The quote doesn't make a claim to veracity, only a claim to repeat what another person said. This example is far from analogous, and no different from when they report what "an official" said—which is to say, it's a terrible substitute for journalism but it's not really that far out.

Here's a better example. Michael Moore has taken a lot of heat over the years for playing loose with the facts. Straight from the horse's mouth (source: http://michaelmoore.com/books-films/facts/bowling-columbine):

"That scene where you got the gun in the bank was staged!"

Well of course it was staged! It's a movie! We built the "bank" as a set and then I hired actors to play the bank tellers and the manager and we got a toy gun from the prop department and then I wrote some really cool dialogue for me and them to say! Pretty neat, huh?

Well gee, whiz! The thing that happened in his movie didn't really happen. Michael Moore is lying! (He goes on to explain that it's true, but I'd be quite fine with it having been staged. Because it's okay to dramatize an issue to make a point about a fact.)

It is the job of journalists to be factual and accurate and illuminating, to the best of their ability. But a creative person's job is different: to be compelling, and hopefully to be illuminating as well. Where Daisey screwed up (and I began my first response with this) was to be misrepresented as more of the former and less of the latter.

What you're calling pedantry is really just people calling you out for the ridiculous logical contortions you're twisting yourself into in order to justify Daisey's lies - presented as fact - "because they're activism for a good cause."

The logic I'm using isn't much of a contortion, it's quite simple. It's unreasonable to expect a dramatization to meet the same standards as journalism. It's not even just unreasonable either, our culture and our awareness would suffer for it. We need people to powerfully engage us on our choices. What we should expect from people like Daisey is that they make us care about the real truths in their stories; we don't need the stories to be accurate, so long as the topical substance is—and in this case it is.

They asked him for the contact info for the translator he used so they could corroborate his stories. He refused to provide that info. If you don't want your stories fact-checked, don't present them to the world as fact.

I agree that Daisey has to answer for misrepresenting his story to This American Life as a kind of journalism. That's why it was the first thing I said.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[khallow]

It's too easy to say that one guy with a stage performance did so much harm

I disagree. This guy has been used as a primary factual source before by people on Slashdot. Now that we find he's been making shit up, are those people going to rethink their beliefs or continue to believe in lies because that's more convenient to their worldview? To the contrary, I don't think it's "too easy" to point out the damage a liar can do to a cause. in fact, I think it's rather hard to do because it's our nature to hold on to beliefs.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[ScentCone]

I'm just now listening to TAL's retraction show and

Listening to Ira's interview recording with Daisey on the air yesterday, I was struck by how much Daisey sounded like a narcissistic emo weasle. Trying desparately to avoid direct answers to some of the most important questions, admitting fault on basic issues of fact where he was caught red-handed, but then spinning like crazy to avoid being seen as unethical. All drama, and no real contrition. Essentially, he made a long, pregnant-pause, faux-apologetic display of being sorry he got caught, but not sorry he was lying in the first place. And he cites artistic license as the get-out-of-ethical-jail-free card. It was really painul to listen to.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Hatta]

There's no such thing as a "creative activist". You're either honest, or you're not. Mike Daisey was dishonest and his dishonesty damaged his cause. That's about all there is to it.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[maple_shaft]

Very insightful post. I agree that Apple and Foxconn are symptoms of the problems in China than the cause of them.

I would liken it to somebody having a broken arm and complaining of pain, so to fix the problem you amputate the arm. No more pain, but then the patient doesn't even have an arm anymore.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[UnknowingFool]

The distortion of the facts takes away from the topics as Foxconn and anyone else can say he lied about that too.

For instance, underage workers is a serious concern. He represented that he saw underage workers where the correction says that underage workers were rare. If you are interested in this topic, his report would lead you to the false conclusion that underage workers were a problem when they are not. The reality would suggest that some underage workers do slip through the system and Foxconn needs to strengthen their checks rather than an overhaul.

Chemical safety is another issue. There was an incident with n-hexane at a factory. By representing that it occurred in another factory, Daisey leads you to the wrong conclusion that there may be a wider problem and at the wrong plant. It may have been a simple accident.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[omfgnosis]

There's no such thing as a "creative activist".

Really? Well, what is a satirist? I suppose Stephen Colbert should be lambasted the same way. A political artist? There goes Picasso.

Daisey's damning dishonesty was in presenting himself to This American Life as something he's not. The content of his stage show isn't the problem.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[omfgnosis]

I stand by what I said. The damage is being done, right here and now, by a failure to understand the difference between journalism and theater.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[khallow]

That's only true all else being equal. But since Foxconn is the largest electronics manufacturing company in China, and indeed the world, it makes sense to start there, the same way regulations here affect large companies first, and small companies later (if ever). It's great that they're currently offering better conditions than other companies, but that's no reason they can't continue to improve. That's not holding the process back, it's driving it forward. I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding here of what helps "the process" and what holds it back. Paying good money for quality service rendered (as Apple does) helps the process. Passing regulations that drive the poor out of work, but help developed world workers maintain their extravagant price premiums and cushy benefits packages doesn't help the process.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[omfgnosis]

The topic isn't Foxconn, the topic is the consequences of our demand for cheap electronics. He wove a tale of truths into a story, but those facts are real. The damage, as I said, is being done by a failure to distinguish.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[coolioisay]

Places like Foxconn are what forced Unions into existence and labor laws to come into place.

I agree with this, but that doesn't mean we should stop doing business there. China's society is in the process of evolving. Most Western societies have already gone through this phase. If we step in and prevent the evolution by removing the demand (that is, if there is no prospect for better paying jobs, which foxxcon is), there will be no incentive for societal changes. Also, technically, all the foxxcon workers already belong to a union.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[toadlife]

To build a ipad in the USA, you will be paying $18-37 an hour. Your factory will be required to meat all OSHA and EPA standards. The manufacture cost of a single iPad will jump to at least $1100.00 add a 40% markup and now you have a 16gig ipad base model selling for $1599.00

Not buying it. AMD makes microprocessors in Germany, a country with as strict or stricter labor laws and regulations, and the result is certainly not chips that cost twice as much.

Or is your argument that Americans are that much less competent at everything compared to other Western nations?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[khallow]

I stand by what I said.

Right. And that doesn't mean anything to me.

The damage is being done, right here and now, by a failure to understand the difference between journalism and theater.

And hopefully the damage will be enough to discourage This American Life and Mr. Daisy from further acts of theater in journalism.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Anonymous Coward]

Paying rent to the company and being forced to buy from the company store IS a form of slavery, Sorry you are too uneducated to see that, or you are just plain old evil and think it's a wonderful thing.

I think you're thinking of the appalachian coal mines in the US from the late 1800's to mid 1900's. Those were isolated places. Rural. Nothing close by. But, this is where the largest Foxconn facility is. It's part of this. Population of over 10 million people. Good luck forcing people to buy from the company store in a place like this.

You may lot like the working conditions, and it is true that they're not ideal, but calling it slavery is simply not true. People want to work there, which is pretty much the exact definition of "not slavery".

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[phantomfive]

1 - Make life conditions horrible for population

I don't think you understand that life conditions were already horrible for the population. No one needed to cause that. In fact, they are far better now than at any time in the past.

Horrible is the default position of life. There is a reason people say, life is hard. Because it is.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Sebastopol]

exactly exactly exactly.

sustenance living is impossible when a big factory comes to town and shits on your farmland and pollutes your water supply, as is happening all over china. so unregulated industry destroys the way of life for millions of people, and they have no choice but to go work in that factory.

it is fucking tragic.

it is even MORE tragic that privileged americans completely understand this, but are too embarrassed to own it, and fight to deny it.

even more, more (?) tragic, i'm sure every electronic doodad i own was made in some southeast-asian factory just like this, so i'm directly related to the problem but it is unavoidable! Can I buy a car WITHOUT electronics? yeah, probably something pre 1970's. Can I buy a fridge/oven/washing machine/HVAC without chinese made electronics? i could ditch all that and live off the land by burning wood for energy and hunting, but that's totally unsustainable too. it's a trap! my only hope is for my FedEx plane to crash on christmas eve so I can live on my own island and become friends with a volleyball.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Sebastopol]

Well, it appears we "snapped our fingers" and made life horrible for millions of farmers, and cleaning up the destruction that these cheap-ass-unregulated pollution machines create will take thousands of years, so you are correct: the damage is done.

You totally buy into the fallacy. "By attacking the ones that offer the better situation for workers"... /bangs head on table/ Don't you get it? They are the ones who made it WORSE by destroying the ability for agrarians to live sustainable by poisoning their air and water. It's happening all over china. peasant towns being destroyed by industry that feeds rich westerners. they can no longer manage their way of life so they have to work in a factory. so that the american economy can continue its cycle of consumption so the country doesn't collapse. brilliant strategy.

Do you get it now?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[khallow]

The global population is increasing exponentially, so unless global economic growth grows as rapidly or more rapidly

This has been happening globally since 1950. I don't know why 60 years of economic growth faster than population growth gets ignored, but it does.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Anonymous Coward]

The critical difference here is that those Chinese workers are /not/ slaves.

I believe the words you're looking for is called, Indentured Servitude. No, its not exactly slavery but it really is. The distinction is one of splitting hairs. The bottom line is that no one is forcing them into these conditions but its not much better than slavery. I personally would rather see the price of goods rise and have American jobs paid a reasonable rate. But that, of course, would piss people off to no end to actually pay for someone else's reasonable labor rates. Its only unfair when its their own labor rate in question.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[BoberFett]

When people begin using theater to attempt to drive public policy, it's no longer entertainment.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[danaris]

I think people miss that point... the foxconn employees work for foxconn, not apple. Apple pays foxconn what foxconn negotiated.

Foxconn could turn around and ask for more when the contract is up so that it could pay it's workers more, but then some other company would likely outbid them.

Actually, I'm not sure about that. There have been multiple articles pointing out that Foxconn is basically the place that can do what Apple needs at the moment. None of the other companies in China have the kind of muscle behind them to meet Apple's (rather demanding) standards.

Not to say that could never change, but for now, it sounds like Foxconn and Apple have each other right where they want each other.

Dan Aris

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Americano]

All of that would be great, if people were simply criticizing him for "dramatizing" working conditions in China. But people aren't doing that. They're criticizing him for going on a national news show and representing his dramatization (and in cases, outright lies) as facts. You're defending him against the former, which does nothing to absolve him of the latter.

The fact that his show is "actually a dramatization, and dramatization is okay in creative activism," has no relevance to the fact (there's that word again) that he went on the national news, and delivered this dramatization as fact. He is to blame - and has stated as such - for not making it clear that his work was theatrical, not factual.

You say he has to "answer for misrepresenting his story," but in your very first post, you said, "Everyone involved here did their job, until it came to us." Now, unless his job description includes "portraying a dramatized monologue as journalistic fact," he did not do his job. In fact (that word! again!) he appears to have gone to some effort to avoid having his stories fact checked, instead of telling TAL "look, to be very clear, this is a dramatic monologue, not a journalistic story. I am trying to shed light on the atrocious working conditions in China by telling this story, and I have taken liberties with times and dates and places and companies. However, these abuses exist and are endemic to Chinese industry. If you'd care to report on the actual stories I'm using as my inspiration, then I'd love to help you build a piece that draws from all of those, and maybe spends 10 minutes talking about my work, and how it ties in."

In other words, he would have been given a whole new platform to highlight the abuses, and get people to "engage passionately" and care about correcting these problems. Instead, he decided to just "do his monologue," present it as fact, and brush off any criticism as a simple misunderstanding about what he does. And, whether you're a "creative activist" or a "journalist," the misrepresentation is inexcusable.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[omfgnosis]

That's why I called it activism, from the start.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[BoberFett]

I heard there was once a journalist that committed suicide. National Public Radio now needs to answer for their crimes against humanity.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Anonymous Coward]

"Paying rent to the company and being forced to buy from the company store IS a form of slavery"

Well, you can make out that anything is a form of slavery if you're willing to redefine what slavery means. I would prefer a more useful definition of the term, one that encompasses what slavery actually is, rather than extending the definition to anyone who has to work for a living. I might say that the hypothetical US worker being paid $37/hour to build ipads is also a slave - because, why only $37? And I'd be no more wrong than you are.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Homr Zodyssey]

Just as "organic" has become trendy to the point that well-to-do consumers will pay three or four times as much money for pesticide free vegetables, we need to make ethical and sustainable business practices just as "trendy".

This is already "trendy". See Starbucks "Fair-Trade" coffee. It's a bit more difficult when you deal with complex electronic devices. If I buy an iPad, knowing that Apple treats their employees well -- I am largely ignorant of how Apple's suppliers (i.e. FoxConn) treat their employees. And even now that we know how Foxconn treats their employees, how do we know how ethical *their* suppliers and their supplier's suppliers are? So, FoxConn pays their guys to assemble the iPad -- but it contains a touch-screen, a battery, connectors, resisters, capacitors, etc. These were likely manufactured by other companies. There is no practical way for an American consumer to know which products (if any) were manufactured humanely.

Lets assume then that a large number of Americans simply stop purchasing these items, until Apple (or Dell, HTC, Samsung, Nintendo, etc.) start publishing comprehensive audits. Do we expect the aforementioned corporations to know the reason for our reluctance? Can we trust the audits?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[fast turtle]

and once as an activist they've publically lied, they'll always be branded as a liar and most of what they say will then be discounted or disregarded. The only ones who can publically lie and get away with it are politicians. Hell if they don't lie, they're not likely to be elected in this day and age as we want liars and thiefs to run our country instead of upright and honorable people.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Daniel Phillips]

Hexane poisoning.

Which did not happen at Foxconn, FYI.

But is still about Apple: In 2009, over 137 workers at Wintek, Suzhou were poisoned by n-hexane. A year later, at least 8 workers at Yun Heng Metal who polished the Apple logos also suffered from n-hexane poisoning (Apple has the iTouch built at Suzhou.)

Well it looks to me like Apple and Foxconn still have plenty of skeletons in the closet, in spite of their indignation over the exact way the material was sourced.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Daniel Phillips]

Why did you neglect to mention that Wintek also works for Apple?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[martas]

In time perhaps "ethically and sustainably manufactured in China" will be the new trendy "organic" label that Yuppies will wear with pride.

And if it's executed in a way at all similar to "organic" foods, it will be just a marketing label often near devoid of meaning... Or at least so I've heard (sorry don't have any sources handy).

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Grave]

Sorry, but slaves also "want" to be enslaved and work their asses off when presented with the alternative of being dead. Choosing between two really horrible things does not automatically mean the one they chose is what they really want.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Daniel Phillips]

For instance, underage workers is a serious concern. He represented that he saw underage workers where the correction says that underage workers were rare. If you are interested in this topic, his report would lead you to the false conclusion that underage workers were a problem when they are not.

You don't know that. Factory workers claim Foxconn hid underage employees prior to inspection

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[khallow]

This slid from a valid point to "cool boys smoking in the bathroom" real fast.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[An ominous Cow art]

Your factory will be required to meat all OSHA and EPA standards.

Upton Sinclair, is that you?

Talk about insightful typos... :-)

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Lumpy]

Ever since the spinoff of AMD's fabrication plants in early 2009, GlobalFoundries has been responsible for producing AMD's processors.
GlobalFoundries' main microprocessor manufacturing facilities are located in Dresden, Germany. Additionally, highly integrated microprocessors are manufactured in Taiwan made by third-party manufacturers under strict license from AMD. Between 2003 and 2005, they constructed a second manufacturing plant (300 mm 90 nm process SOI) in the same complex in order to increase the number of chips they can produce, thus becoming more competitive with Intel. The new plant has been named "Fab 36", in recognition of AMD's 36 years of operation, and reached full production in mid-2007. Fab 36 has been renamed to Fab 1 during the spinoff of AMD's manufacturing business during the creation of GlobalFoundries. In July 2007, AMD announced that they completed the conversion of Fab 1 Module 1 from 90 nm to 65 nm. They then shifted their focus to the 45 nm conversion.

The company has five 200 mm fabrication plants in Singapore, and two 300 mm fabrication plants each in Germany and Singapore, as well as a new 300mm fabrication plant under construction in Saratoga County, New York in the United States.

And these are chips, something that can be highly automated and requires almost ZERO employees to assemble or even package the devices. But It seems you think ipads are no different than a microprocessor so I'll not waste the time explaining the difference. I suggest you look up what it takes to build an ipad and an iphone and how they cant automate the assembly.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Daniel Phillips]

Mike Daisey... has now just achieved the exact opposite of what he was purporting to do.

Oh I don't know about that. If some of the allegations are true, even if evidence was reported incorrectly, all the new publicity only attracts more spotlights. Apple is by no means out of the woods, especially if it turns out there is a coverup, or an organized attempt to deflect real issues by focusing on Daisey.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Daniel Phillips]

Except there wasn't any evidence of workers being poisoned at the factory. Rather there was a previously reported story that occurred several years ago and a thousand miles away that Daisey put into his monologue.

Why did you neglect to mention that the factories involved were working for Apple?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[MrEricSir]

Everything you described about the working conditions and anti-worker practices sounds like America's own industrial revolution.

Is it really right for us to criticize another country for going through the same change we already experienced?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[na1led]

So in the meantime we bury our head in the sand because it's not our problem. That's what we've done for years, so how well has that been working out?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[omfgnosis]

All of that would be great, if people were simply criticizing him for "dramatizing" working conditions in China. But people aren't doing that. They're criticizing him for going on a national news show and representing his dramatization (and in cases, outright lies) as facts. You're defending him against the former, which does nothing to absolve him of the latter.

No, they're doing both, and using the latter to attack the former. That's why I'm making the distinction between what he has done wrong (misrepresent his role) and what he hasn't done wrong (dramatization). I'm concerned about the dramatization becoming a victim of an overly broad attack on the person, because the dramatization is powerful and important.

The fact that his show is "actually a dramatization, and dramatization is okay in creative activism," has no relevance to the fact (there's that word again) that he went on the national news, and delivered this dramatization as fact. He is to blame - and has stated as such - for not making it clear that his work was theatrical, not factual.

Agreed.

You say he has to "answer for misrepresenting his story," but in your very first post, you said, "Everyone involved here did their job, until it came to us." Now, unless his job description includes "portraying a dramatized monologue as journalistic fact," he did not do his job.

No, his job was dramatization, which he did, and did admirably. He also did something outside his job, and I called him on that. But the damage being done is the failure of the broader reactionary audience to make this distinction.

In fact (that word! again!) he appears to have gone to some effort to avoid having his stories fact checked

Which should have been a red flag to This American Life. And it was. Which is why they investigated further and publicly aired their findings.

instead of telling TAL "look, to be very clear, this is a dramatic monologue, not a journalistic story. I am trying to shed light on the atrocious working conditions in China by telling this story, and I have taken liberties with times and dates and places and companies. However, these abuses exist and are endemic to Chinese industry. If you'd care to report on the actual stories I'm using as my inspiration, then I'd love to help you build a piece that draws from all of those, and maybe spends 10 minutes talking about my work, and how it ties in."

That all sounds pretty reasonable.

I don't think we disagree much. Your argument isn't what I'm on about. It's the people who are disparaging his creative work because it isn't factually accurate—regardless of how he represented himself, essentially demanding that he be a journalist—that are doing harm to the exposure of the topic. You can read the other responses I've gotten and see that there is an attitude not to demand accountability for how he represented himself, but for how he framed the entire topic. And that attitude would have us dispense with all manner of—yes, I'll use the term again—creative activism, whether it be satire, political fiction, art or music.

I hope this clears up my position for you.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[na1led]

I agree, China has such a huge population that they have become slaved robots for manufacturers. Since the Chinese people can find work elsewhere they are forced to work at these plants, and we here in the U.S. have the Gaul to say, " don't complain, Foxconn is treating you better than other places".

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[khallow]

Ever thought about getting into a wholesome industry? Like burger flipping?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[iluvcapra]

At no time in The Jungle does Upton Sinclair write "I, Upton Sinclair, saw..." And while much of the incidentals in The Jungle are based on real things that happened, you'd be in a lot of trouble if you tried to use The Jungle as evidence to indict anybody. Upton Sinclair never accused a living person of a criminal act in The Jungle, but Daisey makes several falsifiable claims alleging real crimes by real people against real victims.
Upton Sinclair also never represented his work as an account of actual people in an actual situation, which Mr. Daisey repeatedly did to the TAL producers.

"Muckraking," such as it is, still requires that real claims come with real evidence. Modern examples like Michael Moore's or Kirby Dick's works are content to jump back and forth between factual claims, innuendos, and moral appeals, but what makes it "muckraking" is that they never affirmatively lie. They might edit out things against their agenda, they might represented a sequence of events in such a way as to maximize emotional response, they may choose their subjects in such a way that slants their presentation of the truth.

But they never tell you the sky is green, because to them such species of claims shouldn't be necessary. When Mike Daisey said the guy with the claw hand was injured making Apple products, he was telling us the sky was green. His stories in the end aren't even about China or technology manufacturing, they're just a narrative about guilt and his emotional response to globalization, and a certain sort of liberal NPR listener, highly susceptible to demonstrations of guilt, is the consumer. That's why he made it a narrative with himself witnessing things, to elicit emotions and empathy.

If he'd said "people were poisoned by hexane, making the gadgets in your pocket," it still would have accomplished muckraking and had the virtue of being true, but instead, he said "I saw a dozen 13 year olds poisoned by hexane at Foxconn making iPhones," not because he saw that, but because doing a one-man show with "Steve Jobs" in the title sells more tickets than a one-man show about Chinese labor abuses as such.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Paracelcus]

Maybe we (USA) should impose steep import tariffs on imported tech-toys just to level the field for the American worker.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, but slaves also "want" to be enslaved and work their asses off when presented with the alternative of being dead. Choosing between two really horrible things does not automatically mean the one they chose is what they really want.

Life is full of compromise. You think I like dragging my ass out of bed and going to work in the morning? I like my job, but I'd still rather hang out on the beach and eat sushi everyday. I guess I could just hang out on the beach, but that's not gonna get me my sushi money, is it?

People want these manufacturing jobs because compared to every other job that's available to them, they're fantastic. You can say that's not what they really want, but people are lined up around the block trying to get these jobs, so by that standard, I think it's what they really want.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[newbie_fantod]

as bad as the working conditions and pay at companies like Foxconn are by western standards, they are very competitive compared to the local alternatives

What is the suicide rate for workers employed in those local alternatives?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[microbee]

It's funny how people in the west criticize things thousands miles away in a country which they actually know very little about.

You have good intentions, I admit. Just like you'd send troops to "free" people in countries like Iraq. Because the west simply knows the best.

It's easy to get on the moral ground and throw your opinions around. I think GP asked a good question: if there were another, better civilization (heck, it could be the aliens) came and told the American people that your working conditions sucked, and demanded radical changes, so that you lost your current job, would you be happy about it? Or, you'd rather push changes in your own pace and way and see that gets implemented in your own society?

The Chinese people are not slaves or animals. Ironically, I have a feeling that some people who try to help them view them as so. Give them some credit and let them fight their own fights.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[mosb1000]

Because the factories involved were not Foxconn. If I said that you committed a murder, but I knew it was actually your brother, would you then say "but we both have the same mother!" It's absurd to hold one company accountable for the actions of another simply because they both supply the same customer.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[DRMShill]

> but just that he didn't directly speak to people he claimed to speak with

No.

"The China correspondent for the public radio show Marketplace tracked down the interpreter that Daisey hired when he visited Shenzhen China. The interpreter disputed much of what Daisey has been saying on stage and on our show."

Basically he stated that all of the "bad stories" were simply made up.

It takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[gnasher719]

I believe the words you're looking for is called, Indentured Servitude [wikipedia.org]. No, its not exactly slavery but it really is. The distinction is one of splitting hairs. The bottom line is that no one is forcing them into these conditions but its not much better than slavery.

Except that what you claim is total nonsense. Foxconn pays wages that are quite a bit above average. The cost of living is very low, a place in the dormitories costs per month about one day's wages, meals are not much more. People come from their village, work hard for a year and save their money, and go back to their village as rich people (compared to what anyone else in the village has).

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[gnasher719]

You don't know that. Factory workers claim Foxconn hid underage employees prior to inspection [tuaw.com]

No. Factory workers don't claim. Some chinese organisation claims they talked to factory workers making this claim. Has anyone actually seen these underage employees? What about the remote possibility that factory workers heard about reports in the USA about lots of underage workers (as reported by Daisey), then heard that none were found, and talked about their suspicion that these non-existing underage workers were hidden? What questions have exactly been asked? If the question was: "We know that there are children working at Foxconn, but none were found during the inspection. Why do you think that is? " then what answer would you expect?

I mean if there are children who were hidden away during inspections, surely they have to come out at some point and become visible? Instead of finding workers who claim that children were hidden away, what about actually finding some children?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[CrispyZorro]

You can make an argument that people living in sufficient poverty to make such a deal favorable is a terrible thing, and I'd agree with that. However, destroying Foxconn's business model by preventing them from selling to western countries does nothing directly to fix these people's poverty; in fact it makes it worse, by reducing the pool of jobs available to them (and not just randomly reducing it; you're taking away some of the best jobs in the pool!).

As a nation of consumers and owner of one of the most stable business environments we have a responsibility to point out where an overseas partner needs to make improvements. It is up to that country and the residents of that country to then respond. We are not responsible for the protection of a nation's people but can choose to make investments in those countries who share our values or are moving toward. I believe that China is doing that but it will take time, the appropriate amount of outside pressure, and most importantly the will of her citizens. We must also act in our best interests; decreasing our quality of life in hopes of raising another's is not going to resonate well in the business culture of the US.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[yurtinus]

Might be because neither he nor parent (nor gp, nor ggp, gggp, or op) were talking about Apple. They were talking about Daisey claiming an event happening at Foxconn when it actually occurred at Wintek. Apple's involvement has been discussed at great lengths all over these threads, why try to change the subject here?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Americano]

I don't think we disagree much.

Probably not, I don't have any complaint against him telling stories from across the industrial base of China to highlight awful working conditions there. As consumers, I'd hope we all care to SOME degree whether or not our cheap toys and comforts are created by people laboring in sweatshop conditions. However (always a 'but,' right?), if he wants people to respond emotionally, using the (real) name of a (real) company that people are familiar with is a dicey proposition.

He runs the risk of people hearing his message, and concluding, "this is journalism, and Apple is the only company (or at least by far the worst) engaged in these kinds of practices." It runs the risk of leaving people with the sense that *only Apple* needs to be punished for being this rapacious machine which is ruining lives, not that "this is standard practice in the electronic manufacture business, and Apple is just one example of the companies taking advantage of these conditions." And in fact, conditions might even be *better* at Foxconn than it is at many other factory complexes. I have no evidence other than the head of Fair Labor making a comment to that effect, so obviously, take with huge grain of salt: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/15/us-china-apple-idUSTRE81E1FQ20120215. But it certainly can skew perception of the scope, and nature of the problem if you take too many creative liberties with the story you're telling as part of your activism.

The problem with this "creative activism" is that activism by definition says, "There is a problem here, and we need to fix it. We need to apply pressure and bring resources to bear to right this wrong." Creativity in service of that - documentaries, fiction, photography, art, music, theater - can all help drive home to people that there *is* a real problem, and we *should* fix it. But when creativity starts crossing the line from "using creative means to advocate for fixing a real situation" and becomes "creating a fictionalized account of the problem we're advocating for," well - if you're fictionalizing some elements of the problem, well... where does drama end and truth begin? How bad *is* the problem, really? Is there even a problem? If you raise all these questions, and simply respond to those questions with a blanket assertion that "of course there's a problem, I'm just telling you a dramatized version of the problem to make you understand it," you're really not helping to define or connect people to the problem - you're asking them to just agree with you that there's a problem, while never clearly stating what the problem is.

The stories themselves are - generally - compelling enough in their own right. I think if you put a camera (or audio recorder) on people whose lives, health, and futures have been destroyed and ask them to tell their stories, you can pack an incredible emotional wallop. Flirting with dramatization and fiction in telling your story runs the risk of, as we see here, discrediting the very cause you're advocating for. See also the recent flak Invisible Children has caught for their Kony 2012 campaign, where all kinds of criticism has been levelled against Invisible Children for not telling "the whole truth."

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[yurtinus]

It looks to me like you're trying to throw Wintek's skeletons into Foxconn's closet... Why?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Daniel Phillips]

A lie by omission is still a lie.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Daniel Phillips]

I said nothing about Foxconn. I spoke of n-hexane poisoning of workers at factories assembling products for Apple. This is about Apple's ethics. And judging by the furious twisting, some of Apple's supporters would appear to hold similar ethics.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Daniel Phillips]

Oh, I did say Foxconn still has skeletons in its closet. Which I firmly believe. Do you think they are lilly white? Do you believe that Foxconn no longer regards its workers as animals?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Darinbob]

And this is precisely the problem with entertainers pretending to be journalists, you can end up doing more harm than good in the long run. The same thing happens when taking shortcuts in journalism or adding some sensationalism to science or even not getting your facts verified before publication. You end up with blowback.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Darinbob]

Every company in China that supplies to Apple also supplies to Apple's competitors.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Bucc5062]

It's funny how people in the west criticize things thousands miles away in a country which they actually know very little about.

So China is the utopian idea I've been missing? From everything I've read and observed, there is much to see as troubling for a that country. Censorship, political imprisonment, environmental irresponsibility, and the exploitation of their work force. Yes, I do know something about that for I watch my own country go down that sad slippery slope everyday. Let's not get all erudite without realizing that people do have brains.

You have good intentions, I admit. Just like you'd send troops to "free" people in countries like Iraq. Because the west simply knows the best.

That statement is spurious and border line troll. I doubt the "west" knows best, but between deadly dictators and bought corrupt politicians in a semi-free society, I'll still take the western view for now.

It's easy to get on the moral ground and throw your opinions around. I think GP asked a good question: if there were another, better civilization (heck, it could be the aliens) came and told the American people that your working conditions sucked, and demanded radical changes, so that you lost your current job, would you be happy about it? Or, you'd rather push changes in your own pace and way and see that gets implemented in your own society?

I do not see the US or any western country telling the "people" of China to change, they are pointing out that the government of China is allowing inhumane working conditions for their own people. in fact, I don't think it's even the western government saying much, it is the general population that reacts to information that shows inhumane conditions allowed to be forced on people. As a human I say "That is a bad place to work". If where they came from is worse then I'll say "That is an even worse place to work" and both statements will be valid. Whether China chooses to change is not up to me. What I can do is say to my country, I don't like us dealing with a government that places such a low value on human life, stop dealing with them till they change. That I could say to companies the same thing, but as another poster commented, there is almost nothing electronic that does not come out of the cesspool of indentured labor called Foxconn. I limit my purchases, I make known my feelings, and do what I can to promote the idea that people in China, India, and other exploited societies should have decent, humane working conditions. Sadly the threat of death is enough to quell the organization of workers to allow them to demand this for themselves.

The Chinese people are not slaves or animals. Ironically, I have a feeling that some people who try to help them view them as so. Give them some credit and let them fight their own fights.

The Chinese are a proud, and amazing people with an truly deep history. Sadly those people are ruled in such a way that their voice will not be allowed to be heard. It is hard to fight when the rule of law does not protect you. I would rather my country stay out of anything direct, but instead take a stance that says "We'll be happy to do business with you when you provide humane rights to your work force". It may cause me hardship in the short term, but it would be the right thing to do.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[yurtinus]

It attracts spotlights to the people that want to see them. If somebody is on the fence or doesn't think there's a problem, evidence presented is that much more easily because after all, "Daisey just made it all up."

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[yurtinus]

Oh I see what you're getting at now, this being the second time you've mentioned it. You actually have a bone to pick with Apple. Apple gets a special spot under the guillotine and anything that can give them negative press *must* be brought up even if it dilutes the issue people are talking about. Never mind that these companies do work for just about every electronics manufacturer around. We won't talk about Intel, Microsoft, Dell, HP, System76, or anybody else' manufacturing process because Apple must be the one to answer.

So, why do you have an axe to grind with Apple?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[khallow]

Eh, guess I'm suffering from sour grapes. Who knew "creative activists" could be a weakness?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[terrox]

So the chinese employees don't attempt suicide at Foxconn?, hate to image what it is like at worse employers.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Daniel Phillips]

This is already "trendy". See Starbucks "Fair-Trade" coffee.

+1

Fair Trade org not only esposes high ethical standards, they distribute the best tasting chocolate.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Daniel Phillips]

Apple is Foxconn's biggest customer and Foxconn is Apple's biggest supplier.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Daniel Phillips]

It attracts spotlights to the people that want to see them.

That's the point.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[datavirtue]

Bullshit ACs, you guys are full of shit and you really need to shut up. If we forced China and other countries to provide the working conditions and wages of Americans they would just STFU and do it. The point is, those in power prefer slavery--owning slaves. Except that unlike slavery where they have to pay the full upkeep of the slave, they can pay them a portion of that money keeping more for themselves. Just like in America where you have millions of people working restaurants and other low-pay bullshit jobs who are essentially not much better off than a plantation slave. Instead we have social programs that pay the rest of these peoples living expenses here--money that is taken from hard working people WHO HAVE A FUCKING SELF SUPPORTING JOB! So, the slave owners get to have the slaves, AND the workers they have to pay well must contribute to the support of those who do not have a good job. It is a shitty state of affairs, and it is not sustainable. Quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of it robbing everyone of a prosperous life. Just another way to scam people who are math-challenged. Those in government know this game well, and they do not think much of you.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Rakarra]

A creative activist is an activist who does creative work in the course of their activism

In other words, someone who claims his work to be the truth, except it's actually not.
And yes, Michael Moore falls into that despicable category.
As does Aaron Sorkin, though to a much lesser degree.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[datavirtue]

I find nothing intelligent in your comment. It is just misapplied economic reasoning. People are not prices subject to the invisible hand. Things are the way they are because people make it that way. Are we so inept as beings that we cannot solve these problems? I'm not advocating socialism, I just want a fair trade. As it is, owners hold the long end of the lever, period. This advantage is protected by government---which happens to be an institution of.....the owners. Who can deny this? The system has reached the end of its life, it is broken. A business entity is not "property," but it is treated as such. It is a failed distinction that needs revision. If trade does not benefit both parties equally it is not trade--it is something else, it is destructive to society.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[ppanon]

The Chinese people are not slaves or animals.

OK. Go tell this guy.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[shilly]

What a bizarre thing to say. The company must answer to its customers, or they'll not buy what it makes. No-one is forcing them to do so. Good luck overturning value-based pricing, by the way....

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[datavirtue]

It is really disturbing that ACs with narrow, unsubstantiated views are being modded up en-masse today. Especially when they are advocating slavery. Usually people on slashdot know how to apply reason and logic, but this is a total fail. I guess the comments are probably trolls anyway or they would post with their names.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Rakarra]

Did you listen to the episode? The last 1/3 of the show, occurring after the Daisy discussion was over, was on the topic "So with the interview and its retraction, it's easy to become confused about what happened. We talk to a number of experts who detail what conditions at Foxxcon are really like."

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[yurtinus]

OP's point was the latter part of my statement. People who are aware of and care about the issue may pick up a bit more out of it, but they aren't who need to be convinced. The people who need to be convinced now have an easy out in that one of the bigger stories about the issue was largely made up by the author.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[yurtinus]

You cite a specific at Wintek, then say Foxconn has issues. I know there are issues at Foxconn, just as there are issues at all of these places. This is about Apple's ethics to you, to the rest of us in the conversation it's about the challenges of China's industrialization and how Americans are learning about our involvement in those challenges.

I've just realized I responded to four of your posts in this thread (only realized two of them before the fact because they were worded identically). Really, we're on the same side of this issue: there is definite exploitation of Chinese workers happening in order to bring us our cheap Chinese made gadgets. But why do you only talk about Apple? Apple is one company among thousands that outsources manufacturing to China. Why do you solely hold Apple's feet to the fire? It is an industry-wide problem, and that is the key thing people need to understand in order to fix it.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Daniel Phillips]

It's not about who needs to be convinced, it's about who needs to be convinced to investigate. I don't know about you, but I cannot give great credence to the claims of a monitoring organization whose paychecks are written by Apple.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[BasilBrush]

He only talks about Apple because he doesn't care about Chinese workers. His hatred is nothing more than a free software advocate playing out his software ideology.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Daniel Phillips]

Apple is Foxconn's largest customer and Foxconn is Apple's largest supplier. The discussion of workplace ethics, or lack of them, necessarily concerns both. The spectacle of Apple rising to become the world's richest corporation in part by exploitation necessarily invites Apple to answer for itself. So should Foxconn of course, and why don't you get busy on that, ok? Here on Slashdot we see Apple apologists, not Foxconn applogists, except insofar as they are actually Apple apologists.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[yurtinus]

I'm done with this conversation. You're letting your vitriol against one company detract from a meaningful discussion about a very real problem.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Daniel Phillips]

I'm done with this conversation.

Really?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Hutz]

The problem would be lying about the scope of the problem. Daisey said he stood outside the factory for a few hours and met all these people when, in fact, he met none of them.

The fact that one worker was once exposed to a toxic substance is an accident, if it happens all the time, it is a problem.

60 Minutes reported that Foxconn had installed nets to prevent suicides by workers after 10 workers killed themselves last year. They didn't take the time to point out that the factory had 400,000 employees in it's mini-city, and that the US suicide rate is 11.8/100,000 and that China's is 22/100,000. So the suicide rate at Foxconn is lower than that of both China and the US by a significant margin.

If you lie or exaggerate about the problem it makes it seem like the problem might not really be a problem.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[x2A]

The missing bit though is that Foxconn are breaking laws... and it's not like China have tough labour laws, they give barely any protection to workers, but Foxconn are still managing to break the laws that are there. By extension of the laws that are broken in China producing these products, many laws also often get broken by the importation of those products into western countries.

Whether the local effect of "it's better than the alternatives" is true or not, the effect of allowing companies to operate under impunity holds people down. Disbanding Foxconn, I agree, is a bit too brute force an answer, but beginning to shut down factories that are breaking laws is a start, as this would incentivise them to bring other factories up to at least "legal" status. Apple can use their money to encourage this behavior also. Once factories are operating legally, the need for corruption disappears, and then you see the dragging-up effect on other local business standards who have to compete.

While investment instead is being directed at funding corruption to allow impunity, this dragging-up effect doesn't materialise, as to compete, you must also invest in corruption. If Apple paid more for products from factories that met their legal requirements, you would start to see improvement. This is not in Apple's perceived interest.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Elrond, Duke of URL]

Wow. Kudos to you (Americano) and to omfgnosis for having a lengthy, reasonable, and civil discussion on the topic at hand. And though the comments on /. are miles above most other public sites of similar size, it is still somewhat rare to see a thread go this long with descending into a flame war.

Good show.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[selven]

> Paying rent to the company and being forced to buy from the company store IS a form of slavery

There is no slavery. Workers have a right to enter, and they have a right to leave. Guess what, some people actually prefer having the security of a meal every day to working 16 hours a day and being subject to the whims of the harvest on the field.

And labor laws and unions are really not as useful as you think. If you look at the historical record of what wage laborers' conditions have been over the centuries, you'll find that the chief determinant is not "greed" or unions or laws - it's supply and demand. 14th century, Black Death happened, and, as counterintuitive as it seems, living conditions shot up across the board. We had an 8-hour day for the first time. 19th century, population boom, wages at subsistence. Early 20th century, population growth started to go down as we invented birth control, and wages went up again. Now, things went down a little one more time for those of us lucky enough to be born on the right continent because the world markets got opened up, while living conditions have been measurably going up across the board in the rest of the world (somewhat less in Africa and southeast Asia, which just happens to be where the evil exploiting multinationals are the weakest). Freedom - it's a socialist wealth redistribution scheme :)

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Goaway]

The biggest reason that overall it never has and never will work like that

How, exactly, do you imagine it happened in your own country?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Goaway]

They attempt suicide at Foxconn less than they do outside Foxconn. What does that tell you?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Ol Olsoc]

At least you support liars, Daniel Phillips. Good for you.

Acer

Amazon

Apple

Cisco

Dell

Hewlett-Packard

Intel

Microsoft

Motorola Mobility

Nintendo

Nokia

Samsung

Sony

Toshiba

Vizio

Use any of these products? Anything from these Manufacturers?

If so, you're as guilty of hexane poisoning as Apple is. The amount of Apple hatred from some people is amazing. They are just one customer among many.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Ol Olsoc]

I think that it would be more accurate to say, that Daisey took bits and pieces of various real stories, all of them reported by actual journalists, put these details in rearranged form into a fictionalized monologue, and that became a TAL segment.

It might have been a bit different if he would have presented them that way. Now, after the dust settles, we have the nice word "fictioanlized", which is a replacement for lying, and allowing people to believe that his "fictionalization" was indeed true. We had the self righteous chest thumping even in here, with calls for a boycott of Apple, with the usual suspects lining up to spew their usual hatred. And he certainly did play up the anti-Apple crowd, eh?

Daisey's monologues should be compared with say Upton Sinclair's _The Jungle_. That wasn't actual factual journalism, it was muckraking, a fictionalized account including some examples from real life. I don't think there's anything wrong with muckraking.

That's nice. Only problem was the fictionalized account was presented as actual experience. Do you think that presenting a made up tale as truth is okay?

When public radio starts running TAL right alongside real new programs, then things get confusing. I think TAL did an interesting and intellectually correct thing by essentially fact-checking the monologue and turning that into a story.

TAL does two different things. Either little vignettes, or investigative journalism. The investigative work includes some good work on Patent Trolls (slashdotters go to the TAL site - this is a must listen) and a really awesome piece on the US health care system that cuts through a lot of the healthcare gobbledegook. Anyhow, the Foxconn piece was presented as literal truth, the jackass presented it to them as actual truth, and you just don't do that. Especially to TAL, because it comes back to bite you.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[greyc]

Higher than for Foxconn workers. This has been reported by various media, just google it. The wikipedia article cites this The Economist article, for instance.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Daniel Phillips]

Apple apologist much?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Ol Olsoc]

Nope. If I was apologizing for Apple, I'd be trying to dream op some way that they were an exception. They aren't an exception. Not even close.

I have had at one time or another, something from every manufacturer on that list except for Vizio and Nintendo. If I'm evil because of having a Mac, does it not follow that I am equally evil for having any other item that is produced in whole or in part from Foxconn? You cannot have it both ways. If you have a Dell or a XBox 360, you do not get a free pass just because they were made by someone else besides Apple.

Indeed, it is pretty naive to think that Foxconn is the only manufacturer that has harsh working conditions. Almost certainly they all do. So, are we going to do without electronics?

There is another interesting undercurrent running through this whole workplace issue. That is the presumably natural progression of the people who work in manufacturing in differing countries.

Cheap labor with harsh working conditions as an alternative to subsistence living.

Workers demanding a higher quality of living

Company wants to keep selling, so they negotiate

Workers gain in wages and quality of life.

Manufacturers looking for rock bottom labor move to another place, and the cycle starts again.

It will get better for these people. But blaming Apple while not blaming everyone else is merely anti Apple fanboism. And Daisey is a jerk. If you didn't listen to TAL's story this weekend, you need to.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Daniel Phillips]

OK, you get busy blaming everybody else. I do not deny there is likely more than one perp.[1] I prefer to concentrate on blaming the one making the most money from the abuse and in the best position to do something about it. And which appears to be a little less than sincere in its efforts so far, while spinning the situation to the contrary. So you do your work and I will do mine, ok?

[1] Perhaps you know of other aluminum dust explosions in China?

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[Ol Olsoc]

OK, you get busy blaming everybody else. I do not deny there is likely more than one perp.[1] I prefer to concentrate on blaming the one making the most money from the abuse and in the best position to do something about it.

Okay, I get it. Apple is bad because it is biggest

Everyone else is Ok, because they are smaller than Apple.

Most very respectfully sir, you are about the most honest and total hypocrite I've ever seen. TTFN!

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[rtb61]

Apple have consistently responded with PR=B$ and investigations extended enough so that everyone forgets everything and absolutely nothing has changed. You have billionaires paying people cent's per hour and complaining that it's too much and looking to shift to the next countries exploitable labour force.

The only change will be one that's forced by law. Fair competition trade laws, that take into account minimum wages, labour conditions, safety conditions, environmental conditions and apply penalties to ensure companies all over the globe compete upon a equal basis.

This of course will be ruthlessly fought by corporations in order to protect bloated profit margins, Apple is a scum public relations and marketing bullshit corporation, it will never change. It is governments that are forced to change and implement laws that put exploitative corporations out of business.

Re:I hope he realizes he did more harm than good

[omfgnosis]

I really don't think it's as simple as that. While other OEMs are driven almost purely by the bottom line, Apple's bottom line is highly dependent on public perception. They have a reputation, and their brand is tied up in it. There's a reason that public pressure after This American Life aired Daisey's show convinced Apple to meet a demand that human rights and labor activists have been demanding for years: some form of accountability to their otherwise-sham "audits". This will actually make real changes (perhaps, even probably, not good enough). All the better that other OEMs have responded to Apple's growing market dominance by emulating Apple. They will have little choice but to adopt similar labor policies.

Is it enough? Almost certainly not. I personally won't settle for anything less than true equality between work forces. But it's a step, it's in the right direction, it will actually improve real lives, and it also creates an environment where the laws you're talking about might be more palatable to the businesses who—let's face it—already drive legislation.

It's easy to say "computer manufacturer bad!" and throw up our hands, not the least of which because it's true. But I don't think we should blink at any tactic that might improve working conditions at those factories. Even if that tactic is to manipulate a bad computer manufacturer to accept that it will profit from such improvements (which is also true). And even—as I've said in other comments—if it means taking creative approaches to raising public awareness and emotional investment in the topic.

Louis Woo is their spokesman?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess that the real story that Mike Daisey didn't uncover is that Foxconn is a Puppeteer front company.

Re:Louis Woo is their spokesman?

[Maury Markowitz]

Phew, I wasn't the only one.

Re:Louis Woo is their spokesman?

[fifedrum]

well played AC, well played.

Re:Louis Woo is their spokesman?

[tnk1]

Does that mean that Foxconn is also using Chinese slave labor to manufacture General Products Hulls? If so, now we know how the Chinese are going to the moon.

Re:Louis Woo is their spokesman?

[FridayBob]

Phew, I wasn't the only one.

Indeed, but let's not forget that the surname of the famous Ringworld protagonist was spelled "Wu", not "Woo".

Re:Louis Woo is their spokesman?

[fliptout]

"Woo" is not proper pin yin (chinese romanization), so it would be spelled "Wu" in other circumstances. Clearly a Puppeteer agent. ;)

Re:Louis Woo is their spokesman?

[Maury Markowitz]

> was spelled "Wu", not "Woo".

Spelling is often lost in translation.

Until my great grandfather got to Ellis, our family name was "Smith"

Re:Louis Woo is their spokesman?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pin Yin is not the only romanization system used in Taiwan.

Re:Louis Woo is their spokesman?

[rwise2112]

I wonder, could they make them small enough to enclose, say, a cell phone?

Ratings

[DigiShaman]

This is what happens when someone goes in with a predetermined narrative. News at 11.

Why was his "act" presented as "fact"?

[msobkow]

What I don't understand is why his "act" was presented as "fact" by the Times.

Their excuse is that it was an "op-ed". Opinion pieces are normally clearly identified as such; this piece was not.

Unfortunately, a lot of people are going to assume that all the issues raised were bullshit because of the lies that were told, which means that if there was any truth at all, it's just been conveniently swept under the rug.

Bozo boy has done FAR more harm to the idea of protecting foreign workers than he could ever have imagined through this literal bullshit.

Re:Why was his "act" presented as "fact"?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Actually this was a point by Ira Glass. That in presenting the story as fact, they gave the story the backing of TAL which does very hard work trying to verify the facts in the case.

TAL's reputation is now tarnished, however, not for long I suspect.

Re:Why was his "act" presented as "fact"?

[Nidi62]

What I don't understand is why his "act" was presented as "fact" by the Times.

Because he was going around from media outlet to media outlet portraying it as fact. When you say to a reporter "I went to these places, spoke to these people, and saw these things", it's going to be taken as fact. And his "act" did include a lot of factual statements and observations, he just made some up. But at no time did he come out say: "this is based on true events". He protrayed as an actual, factual record of what happened.

Re:Why was his "act" presented as "fact"?

[YurB]

Yes. This is a good example of what "lie to help" may lead to... Even Wikipedia has forbidden so-called "original research" and most articles will let you verify facts in different sources. Actually it (Wikipedia) taught me to try verify things all the time and only have my own opinion rather than blindly accepting someone's else. Unfortunately this may be time-consuming, so the first rule is don't spread unless verified...

Re:Why was his "act" presented as "fact"?

[sycodon]

The Times and the other outlets presented this fact because it fit their preconceived ideas.

Re:Why was his "act" presented as "fact"?

[oh_my_080980980]

Actually no. There were points they could not verify but decided to present them because they were able to verify others. It was sloppy work and incredibly slimy of them to backslide. Who the fuck cares whether or not he visited the factory were workers were poisoned. The story is workers were poisoned at a factory NOT Daisey didn't visit said factory. Way to take your eye's off the ball TAL!

Re:Why was his "act" presented as "fact"?

[oh_my_080980980]

Except the NY Times did their own investigation:

"Last month the New York Times published an investigation into working practices at Apple supplier's plants in China that documented poor health and safety conditions and long working hours."

www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/19/us-foxconn-idUSBRE82I03120120319

Thanks for burying your head in the ground.

Re:Why was his "act" presented as "fact"?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Hence why I said that TAL's reputation has been tarnished.

Besides, there's more to the story than just the N-Hexane poisoning.

There's also the underage laborers, which Daisey said were everywhere. He didn't even ask their age, and guessed with several of them. There's also the "unions" which Daisey claimed to have dozens of them meet at a Starbuck's.Which given the exchange rate and prices in China would be like the SEIU meeting at the Waldorf Astoria for it's regular shop meetings.

There are so many details that Daisey fabricated for the sake of the stage performance. In the end, Daisey got so much wrong, or dramatized that the whole piece was worthless and should've been scrapped.

Life in a Foxconn factory is bad, but not nearly as bad as Daisey makes it out to be. Which is the real shame here as said over and over in other threads, because this allows Foxconn to sweep things under the rug a bit and try to white wash the problems Foxconn employees face.

Re:Why was his "act" presented as "fact"?

[sycodon]

You can't just say that the NYTs found bad conditions and then blithely dismiss the fact that they reported these "fake, but accurate" details.

Clarification

[msobkow]

I misread a bit of the article. "This American Life" is not owned by the New York Times as I thought; the Times had to retract a different article by the same fellow.

But that still doesn't change the fundamental problem: Why was a "comedian's" opinion presented as fact?

This is ONE case where I think Apple SHOULD sue.

Re:Clarification

[necro81]

While Apple throws around lawsuits like toilet paper, I think that, like Foxconn, they'll leave it alone. For one, there's the Streisand Effect to consider - filing suit will allow the whole case to live on, and with a higher profile. Second, it won't do any good - even if Apple can demonstrate damages, which I doubt, it's not like Daisey could cough up enough money to matter. Third, it presents an avenue for real investigation in a court of law, where every undercover investigation and audit could be admissible, and Foxconn workers subpoenaed and testify.

Re:Clarification

[tlhIngan]

While Apple throws around lawsuits like toilet paper, I think that, like Foxconn, they'll leave it alone. For one, there's the Streisand Effect to consider - filing suit will allow the whole case to live on, and with a higher profile. Second, it won't do any good - even if Apple can demonstrate damages, which I doubt, it's not like Daisey could cough up enough money to matter. Third, it presents an avenue for real investigation in a court of law, where every undercover investigation and audit could be admissible, and Foxconn workers subpoenaed and testify.

It's not good business at all. In fact, this whole thing will probably have damaged claims of mistreatment at Foxconn for years to come, like how ecoterrorists tend to give a bad name to environmentalists. Sure they have a point, but in conveying that point, they lost the audience.

Better for Foxconn and Apple to leave well alone than force a court of law to have to go and dig through the muck. This way, Foxconn and Apple come out "better" in the end. A retraction is worth far more than whatever PR Apple and Foxconn could get through a lawsuit. And by doing this, Daisey's work is now going to be seriously questioned in the future. I suggest he apply to Fox News.

Tim Cook's email about Apple's supplier practices suddenly starts ringing a lot more truer when it was sent a month ago.

Plus, Foxconn and Apple aren't doing too badly, so a lawsuit illustrating actual damages is pretty hard to come by. (Like those who argued about the backdated share optoins - sure you suffered damages, but considering Apple did REALLY well for all involved, there's very little evidence to show what would've happened otherwise).

Sit back, and quietly watch the fireworks. Daisey has done more to damage the case of the poor Chinese worker than what Apple/Foxconn could do via PR and lawsuits.

Re:Clarification

[yurtinus]

Your reputation is forever tarnished, msobkow. You posted falsehoods and did not have the minerals to stand by what you said!! THE GALL!

Fun and games aside, why would they sue? TAL did vet the story and most of the main points checked out. The details though were a heap of exaggerations and stories other people's anecdotes. IANAL but I assume pursuing a libel case would be a challenge when everything said really was based on actual events (just not the author's events...). Additionally, there has been far more attention paid to the retraction than to the original story, so Apple really would have a hell of a time demonstrating any harm.

The real tragedy is

[hsmith]

If there are misdeeds occurring at Foxconn, they haven't been exposed. Any potential problems being reported can now be brushed under the carpet of potential "bs" tied to this story.

He did a huge disservice to exposing truth, good or bad, about Foxconn. If Foxconn isn't all that bad to work for, it would have been great to know - if it is a hell hole, it would have been great to know. But, this just clouds the water in getting to the bottom of it.

Shame, because it would be great to have an unbiased report.

Re:The real tragedy is

[na1led]

I'm sure most factories in China are Hell Holes! They have less standards then Mexico.

Re:The real tragedy is

[hsmith]

Based on what? I've never visited a Foxconn factory, so, it is hard to say if it is or isn't, personally.

Re:The real tragedy is

[na1led]

Based on my intuition. If you had a choice to work at Foxconn in China, or a Factory in Silicon Valley, and not know the working conditions of either place, which would you choose? Just because I've never been to China, doesn't mean I'm completely naive about what goes on their.

Re:The real tragedy is

[Sechr Nibw]

I'm pretty sure you are completely naive about what goes on their.

Their.

Their.

Re:The real tragedy is

[oh_my_080980980]

You do realize there have been other reports about the appalling conditions that were not based on Daisy.

Re:The real tragedy is

[RazorSharp]

I did some work for a Chinese manufacturer that was a native Chinese business (they designed, engineered, and manufactured their own products). When my boss, a marketing guy they hired to sell their stuff in the States, went over there to check out the factory he was extremely impressed. He said it was better than any American factory he's ever seen. It was clean, high tech, and there were quality services provided for the laborers.

China allows hell hole factories, and you're probably right in saying that most of them are hell holes, but the country has been developing at a rapid pace. Only a few decades ago China was considered a third world country. It still has areas where the quality of life is no better than third world, but the progress they've made is phenomenal. Many companies are looking to Africa and Latin America for future manufacturing because they're worried that China's becoming too wealthy of a country (basically, they're worried that the manufacturing costs in China will escalate as the country becomes more wealthy).

Re:The real tragedy is

[gnasher719]

You do realize there have been other reports about the appalling conditions that were not based on Daisy.

Then tell us.

Re:The real tragedy is

[zenyu]

Apple has said that 50% of their suppliers violate the 60 hour work week. Real reporters have interviewed the employees who did feel pressured to do the overtime they didn't want. There were two explosions separated by seven months at factories polishing the aluminum for Apple products; deaths and injuries that could have been addressed by simple ventilation.

You don't need to visit a factory personally to comment on the issue. There are facts about working conditions that are not in dispute. Some of these are reprehensible enough to make headlines in China.

Mike Daisey said he saw some things that from other accounts are really rare, like child labor and debilitating incidents of poisoning, and he said he witnessed an outright repressive atmosphere (angry guards with guns, cameras in bedrooms) which simply does not reflect reality. By saying he saw these he made it appear like these were common, when they are outliers.

The day-to-day problems are a lot more mundane. Factory managers that don't follow basic safety guidelines not because they are malevolent, but because they don't know which safety measures are really necessary and which are nice-to-haves. I have visited a workplace in India where the second means of egress was blocked; it took a while for me to explain why exactly this was a serious hazard. The managers there really cared about their workers, they kept a 5 day work schedule instead of the typical 6 day schedule, they had a break room with internet terminals. Work hours are a real issue in the 3rd world too. The workers want to work more hours, up to a point of course. The research shows that you hit diminishing returns very quickly after 35-40 hours, especially when this extends past a couple weeks into death march mode. But if the managers are inexperienced and don't understand this, overtime becomes chronic and this costs the company a lot of money.

Re:The real tragedy is

[na1led]

Well Mr. Know it all, I'm sure you've never been to North Korea either, does that mean we shouldn't assume anything bad happens their? (and by the way, I've been to the DMZ). I'm sure you've never been to Syria either, should we believe that all is peachy their too? People like you are the reason this world is going to Hell, because you're more interested in getting your new toys, and less concerned about how its made. I'm sure the T-Shirt on your back was made by slaved children too, but who cares, because we can't prove it.

Re:The real tragedy is

[gnasher719]

Apple has said that 50% of their suppliers violate the 60 hour work week. Real reporters have interviewed the employees who did feel pressured to do the overtime they didn't want. There were two explosions separated by seven months at factories polishing the aluminum for Apple products; deaths and injuries that could have been addressed by simple ventilation.

The first statement is plain incorrect. Read Apple's Supplier Responsibility report to find what Apple _actually_ said. Yes, the words 50%, suppliers, violate, 60 hour, are all there, but what Apple says is significantly different. And these reporters should urgently visit some US software companies.

And what about Intel, where a huge dust explosion happened at about the same time? Shouldn't that have been addressed by simple ventilation? But I guess that happened at a part of their factory that exclusively made chips for Apple?

Re:The real tragedy is

[na1led]

Well I'm sure most of us have never been to China, so why are we all here talking about it?

Re:The real tragedy is

[zenyu]

I said,
Apple has said that 50% of their suppliers violate the 60 hour work week.

Gnasher said,
The first statement is plain incorrect. Read Apple's Supplier Responsibility report to find what Apple _actually_ said. Yes, the words 50%, suppliers, violate, 60 hour, are all there, but what Apple says is significantly different. And these reporters should urgently visit some US software companies.

Sorry, "93 facilities had records that indicated more than 50 percent of their workers exceeded weekly working hour limits of 60", "At 90 facilities, more than half of the records we reviewed indicated that workers had worked more than 6 consecutive days at least once per month", "Practices in compliance : Working Hours : 38%"

So I should have said, "Apple has said that 62% of their suppliers violate their 60 hour work week practice."

I stand corrected! Working conditions much are worse than I stated.

And what about Intel, where a huge dust explosion happened at about the same time? Shouldn't that have been addressed by simple ventilation? But I guess that happened at a part of their factory that exclusively made chips for Apple?

From a quick google, in the May explosion, 3 dead and 9 others hospitalized, 2 weeks after SACOM released a report detailing the ventilation problem. In the December explosion, 23 hospitalized. Apple contractors are blown up due to poor ventilation and then seven months later Apple contractors are again blown up for the same reason and you deflect to Intel?

If my workers start dying in easily preventable explosions you can be sure no one will be exploding for the same reason seven months later. As dust goes aluminum is a lot easier to deal with than wood dust, yet Ikea isn't beset with claims of the dead toll from the production of LACK tables like Apple is with the iPad deaths.

The only explosion I can find in Google at an Intel plant was last June in the solvent room when testing chemicals. There are some things with inherent risk, like volatile solvent testing, there are other things, like polishing an Apple iPad, where an explosion only occurs through gross negligence.

Re:The real tragedy is

[fliptout]

It's true: you and most of the people here have no idea what you are talking about. Plus, you offer a false choice of being able to choose between working in China and working in Silicon Valley- this defies logic and adds no weight to your argument.

I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[Oswald McWeany]

I am so glad we now know Foxconn is so nice. Those employees who live in Foxconns worker camps and jump off buildings are probably just depressed that one day they would have to retire.

Seriously- the show was a fraud- but that doesn't mean Foxconn is good. I really don't know- but evidence probably points towards it not being an ideal utopia. The reason Foxconn isn't pursuing legal action is probably because they know it would end up exposing a bunch of bad stuff that really does happen resulting in more bad PR.

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[Anonymous Coward]

The rate of suicides at Foxconn is lower than that of the population at large in China. I'm not saying Foxconn is wonderful, but disinformation is disinformation.

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[aslagle]

You do know that Foxconn's suicide rate is much lower than the China national average, right?

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[Oswald McWeany]

Do you have a link to the statistics of suicide rate of employed individuals in China? Same could be said of any country/company- suicide rates tend to be hiring amongst the unemployed and the convicted.

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[BasilBrush]

Those employees who live in Foxconns worker camps and jump off buildings are probably just depressed that one day they would have to retire.

Ah yes, the older lie. Foxconn employs almost a million people. When you have that many people in a group, some of them will commit suicide. We measure the extent to which that happens by "the suicide rate". The fact is that the suicide rate at those factories is significantly lower than the general suicide rate of Chinese people.

i.e. Foxconn employees are LESS likely to comit suicide than your average chinese person.

There's a strong desire amongst many in America to believe anything bad about china, and a stronger one amongst many on slashdot to believe anything bad that can be somehow associated with Apple. So bad things about Foxconn are something that lots of people want to believe. The fact that they tend to be lies and distortions doesn't seem to put these people off at all.

People tend to have a stronger to will to believe what they want to believe than to find out what's really true.

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[aslagle]

Admittedly this data is a bit old, but it does come from WHO (and not just some blog):

http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/chin.pdf/

Suicide rate among people aged 25-34 is 15.1 per 100,000.

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[aslagle]

Another link, more recent data, sourced from China state media:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5i1FL2q8ZO_Z93-mOqOx5eSYQW36Q?docId=CNG.fe11c1b55d60e484a37a458dccdd1b34.8f1/

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[Vitriol Angst]

When you learn that SOME of the information you built your assumptions on are wrong -- it's a good idea to CHECK the rest.

Those suicides at FoxConn amount to about 3 in 100,000. Since FoxConn has around 900,000 employees -- it seems like a lot, but it's less than the average in the US or China.

Being a worker in China sucks -- we can all admit that. It seems to me, however, that the "dorms" mean free room and board. So would NOT getting housing and a meal with the same pay be a bonus? We have to look at relative lifestyle between the average worker and the average FoxConn worker.

The reality is, of the big 4 -- FoxConn is the most sought after -- and guess what? Apple has been pushing for better conditions and a raise. Almost EVERY major electronics manufacturer uses Chinese labor -- but who pushed to handle dangerous chemicals more safely? Apple computer. In fact, they've been the biggest whistleblower.

Is IBM and Sony getting hammered in the press? We have to ask how everyone is incensed about iPads -- but no mention of other products. The press that reports this stuff is either IGNORING basic research which I can find out in 10 seconds -- or they are willfully ignoring the real issues. What's your excuse?

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[Vitriol Angst]

I think the Post Office has the same PR issue. At one point, there were over a million employees, but the term "going postal" -- well, that stuck.

Statistics don't really impact people at a basic level.

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[na1led]

So I guess if one company treats their slaves a little better than another place, it's OK. Apple doesn't care about the environment, they only care about profits. That's why they keep rolling out new iPad's every year! Use up all our natural resources, pollute the environment, all for what? So you can hold that shiny new iPad 3 that has higher resolution than your previous iPad? I think some of us are just upset with the bigger picture, that's just my 2 cents.

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[oh_my_080980980]

Yes because you have to accept a certain amount of your workforce committing suicide....*eye roll*

You have people committing suicide - that tells you something is wrong. You have people living in crammed "dorms" and working 12 hour shifts. Are so such a heartless bastard to ignore this conditions. Apple is only saving 20% but still getting 70% to 80% markup.

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[oh_my_080980980]

"Underage workers have been discovered but are fairly rare. They don't seek out child workers; why would they when there are plenty of adults that aren't any more expensive? The children are there because they lied and said they were adults; they get paid as adults and get fired when they're found out."

Why would investment managers at Goldman Sachs purposely mislead their clients. Because they want to make a profit.

douche bag.

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[UnknowingFool]

That rate is per year if I read that right. Over 2 years, Foxconn has 11 so it is 19 below the average.

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[BasilBrush]

Yes because you have to accept a certain amount of your workforce committing suicide....*eye roll* You have people committing suicide - that tells you something is wrong.

And there's one more person that doesn't understand statistics... or mental health issues...

You have people living in crammed "dorms" and working 12 hour shifts. Are so such a heartless bastard to ignore this conditions. Apple is only saving 20% but still getting 70% to 80% markup.

...and believes whatever he wants to believe, regardless of what the truth is.

Foxconn doesn't have slaves, they can leave their job just as anyone in the west could. They have people queueing up outside the factory gates wanting jobs, because by Chinese standards they are good jobs.

China doesn't yet have general standards of living as good as western countries do. In 20-30 years they will have. It doesn't happen overnight. It didn't happen overnight for the west.

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[BoberFett]

Turn off your polluting computer and go live in a cave if you're such a big picture thinker.

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[TheSync]

suicides at FoxConn amount to about 3 in 100,000. Since FoxConn has around 900,000 employees -- it seems like a lot, but it's less than the average in the US or China.

And misses the important fact that Chinese rural suicide rates are actually very high. Many Chinese are very happy to not be in the countryside any more when they get an urban factory job.

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[gnasher719]

You have people committing suicide - that tells you something is wrong. You have people living in crammed "dorms" and working 12 hour shifts. Are so such a heartless bastard to ignore this conditions. Apple is only saving 20% but still getting 70% to 80% markup.

What you call being a "heartless bastard" actually means trying to inform yourself about problems. If you go into a hospital, would you prefer a doctor who is unable to help you because he or she is flooding the floor in tears while you are dying, or a heartless bastard who makes crude jokes at your expense while keeping you alive and actually helping you?

The "heartless bastards" put up nets, and made people sign contracts not to make suicides. At the same time, the well-meaning people of San Francisco claim that suicide nets for the Golden Gate bridge, where the average annual confirmed number of suicides alone is three times higher than the worst year at Foxconn, are too expensive.

Re:I am so glad Foxconn is so nice

[na1led]

Sure they didn't do this thinking about bunnies and birds but they're thinking of these things as good for business because they're good for the world.

Name ONE thing these companies (Apple, Walmart, Exon Mobile) have done that's good for the world!

Avid TAL Fan Here

[eldavojohn]

Wasn't the problem here not that what Daisey reported was false, but just that he didn't directly speak to people he claimed to speak with? Of course from a journalistic standpoint that is awful but it is now sweeping these problems under the rug.

Foxconn can now act like there were no problems and ignore them just because the source used was a secondary source reported as a primary source.

So, being an avid TAL fan, here are some things I remember from the two episodes that he lied about (remember Cathy Lee was his translator):

• Guards with guns (in fact, Cathy has never seen one)
• Factory workers meeting at Starbucks
• Visited 10 factories (he only visited 3 according to Cathy)
• Meeting N-Hexane victims
• meeting underage workers (he actually guessed a bunch of young looking girls' ages)
• meeting a hundred factory workers (play says 100, Daisey later says 25-30 now cathy says 2 or 3)
• metal press victim who was fired for workin too slowly
• a lot of the emotional interractions with Cathy
• he presented himself as a "writer/actor" to Cathy but influenced our impression of Apple
• didn't go on the exit ramp with Cathy
• did go to dorm rooms for workers but lied about cameras in them
• Cathy claims she never separated with Mike at the factory
• Cathy says he never spoke to workers in English
• he lied about Cathy's availability and phone number to occlude This American Life's factchecking

The things that really worry me are he calls this "unpacking the complexities of how the stories get told" or "untying the story" in the second episode. This guy reminds me of the religious leaders from my youth who will tell you complex lies about their own personal experiences and they justify it by the fact that you are duped into believing past a mark that the evidence justifies. It's gross and disgusting that he washes his hands of it and calls his thing a performance while never straightening out TAL on the specifics.

Like you said, some of the things happened but at what scale? Daisey makes it sound like you could fly there and pick a factory and you'd find it all. Good for TAL for devoting a full hour to what they had misrepresented. I'm still a huge TAL fan.

And every time you think twitter and blogging and Slashdot have replaced modern journalism, behold the above danger.

Re:Avid TAL Fan Here

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

And every time you think twitter and blogging and Slashdot have replaced modern journalism, behold the above danger.

This, a thousand times.

Not just this story but it was thanks to real capital J Journalism that we got the facts behind KONY 2012 and Invisible Children. I think that Charlie Brooker's take on it is particularly great.

Re:Avid TAL Fan Here

[khallow]

And every time you think twitter and blogging and Slashdot have replaced modern journalism, behold the above danger.

If This American Life hadn't done that fact checking then who else would have? Turns out that blogs are one of those parties that could do it. It's worth keeping in mind that blogs don't have the credibility of a major news service either, so the public is less likely to take things on faith.

Re:Avid TAL Fan Here

[tknd]

Journalism itself cannot be trusted. It is often filled with biases or spins the source purposely puts in in order to accomplish spreading their intended message. It doesn't matter if the media is publicly owned or corporate owned. It is guaranteed that you'll get shoddy journalism if laws don't protect free speech.

The only thing that can prevent a population from buying into poor journalism is an educated population. That is a population where individuals are capable for uncovering lies and biases inherent in the sources. This is why adequate education of citizens is crucial.

Re:Avid TAL Fan Here

[yurtinus]

Journalism can be trusted if they know they are presenting to an educated population (or educated competitors) who will call them on their lies and biases. Hell, journalism is crucial to maintaining an adequate education of citizens. Unfortunately, when the citizenry turns to journalism for *answers* rather than *facts* - it becomes the worst threat to a free society.

Re:Avid TAL Fan Here

[butchersong]

And actually 'This American Life' didn't do any fact checking until another program gave them a heads-up on a story they were going to run about all this being basically bull. I enjoy This American Life. I listen to it often but I would agree with one of the posters above that this is an example of the failures and laziness of traditional journalism rather than any kind of object lesson about the dangers of the blogosphere.

Re:Foxconn made cheap motherboards

[Oswald McWeany]

This weekend saw a killer deal for a cheap HTPC barebones kit. The only reason I didn't buy it was because it was Foxconn made. I can't be sure about other electronics- who knows if they were built in similar bad conditions- but when a box is branded Foxconn I know it is safe to avoid.

Daisey's Response

[sesshomaru]

Mike Daisey comments on "This American Life" controversy.

In other news, Political Cartoons should not also be taken as literal fact.

Especially if they have talking ducks in them.

Re:Daisey's Response

[nweaver]

Which is an amazingly disingenuous response. Mike Daisy presents his monologues as first hand experiences . That is a flat out lie. Are his other monologues similarly not encumbered by the truth?

And he was told, repeatedly, that This American Life considers actual facts to be important.

And it also matters a lot. IF a random American in a hawaiian shirt would find out all this it would be a much more serious problem than the reality, which is bad but no where near as atrocious as he presents it.

Re:Daisey's Response

[Space cowboy]

Seriously ? This is "informative".

No. This is ass-covering. This is "oh shit, someone actually looked at my data, that I tried to hide by claiming my source was now incommunicado. WTF do I say now ?"

He presented stuff as fact. At no point did he say "This is mainly fiction", or "Some of this shit I just made up for dramatic effect", or *anything* in fact that would give the game away.

Even *if* we give him a pass on the monologues, there's no excuse for lying when asked direct questions by interviewers (multiple times, and not just TAL). Things like "did you meet the man with the hexane-poisened hand who was denied medical care and fired, that you claim to have met", answer: "yes"; reality: no.

He's a proven liar. He's been outed. Nothing he says has any credibility any more. Nothing. Which is a shame when it comes to raising the standards of living in China.

Simon.

Re:Daisey's Response

[Grygus]

This defense falls down when the staff of a journalistic organization asks you whether it's the literal truth, and you say, "yes." When you follow that up by telling them that you lost the talking duck's number, it shows that you know exactly what you're doing.

I wonder how much money he made from this lie.

Re:Daisey's Response

[sexconker]

Seriously ? This is "informative".

No. This is ass-covering. This is "oh shit, someone actually looked at my data, that I tried to hide by claiming my source was now incommunicado. WTF do I say now ?"

He presented stuff as fact. At no point did he say "This is mainly fiction", or "Some of this shit I just made up for dramatic effect", or *anything* in fact that would give the game away.

Even *if* we give him a pass on the monologues, there's no excuse for lying when asked direct questions by interviewers (multiple times, and not just TAL). Things like "did you meet the man with the hexane-poisened hand who was denied medical care and fired, that you claim to have met", answer: "yes"; reality: no.

He's a proven liar. He's been outed. Nothing he says has any credibility any more. Nothing. Which is a shame when it comes to raising the standards of living in China.

Simon.

In what way is he a proven liar?
It's just as likely that Foxonn / the Chinese government rounded up a few workers, got their stories straight, and then tipped off TAL to Daisey's "lies".
The follow up fact checking could simply have been fed a different story.

Why believe story B over story A? From your perspective, there is exactly as much evidence for one as there is for the other. Bottom line is that unless youw ork on Foxconn you don't know what goes on there. It boggles my mind that so many people are so eager to default to the "Foxconn is okay and better than most." conclusion with 0 evidence, yet they're so quick to skewer a Western company if they don't hand out raises to the unions who encourage workers to sabotage the line so they can work overtime.

Re:Daisey's Response

[3.1415926535]

Listen to the TAL followup story. He admitted, eventually, that he lied. Except that he seems to be physically incapable of saying the word "lie," instead trying to weave a web of bullshit about there being different levels of truth, and that his version was (to paraphrase) "stage true" vs. "true in the traditional sense." Ira Flatow even told him that that was not a normal viewpoint when it comes to whether something is true or not, and he just hemmed and hawed. If that's not the definition of a pathological liar, I don't know what is.

Re:Daisey's Response

[Space cowboy]

Because Daisey said himself that he's a liar. Read / listen to the TAL follow-up.

Simon.

Re:Daisey's Response

[nweaver]

In what way is he a proven liar?
It's just as likely that Foxonn / the Chinese government rounded up a few workers, got their stories straight, and then tipped off TAL to Daisey's "lies".
The follow up fact checking could simply have been fed a different story.

Why believe story B over story A? From your perspective, there is exactly as much evidence for one as there is for the other. Bottom line is that unless youw ork on Foxconn you don't know what goes on there. It boggles my mind that so many people are so eager to default to the "Foxconn is okay and better than most." conclusion with 0 evidence, yet they're so quick to skewer a Western company if they don't hand out raises to the unions who encourage workers to sabotage the line so they can work overtime.

Read/listen to the retraction.

Daisy's personal story was incredibly full of holes, and he admitted it on tape. EG, just to start with, the guards at Foxcon don't have guns. An illegal underground union for $20/day workers wouldn't meet at Starbucks. He lied to TAL about his translator. N-Hexane was a problem at other suppliers a thousand miles away, not Foxcon. Basically, Daisy's story was so full of holes once a US reporter, based in China, started looking at things it all fell apart.

The result is basically anything that Daisy said he has personally experienced in a monologue can't be trusted: it may be based on "truthyness", actual events that he heard or read about in a newspaper, but in no way should one believe that they actually happened to him.

Re:Daisey's Response

[Anonymous Coward]

In what way is he a proven liar?

...in that he directly admitted to it in great detail in the "retraction episode" of This American Life. Suggested listening.

Re:Foxconn made cheap motherboards

[huge]

I hear you, but could you please elaborate a bit how do you draw the connection from this:

I guess that accounts for all the cheap labor.

to this:

I wouldn't believe anything Mr. Woo has to say.

If you have other reasons why you don't trust what Mr. Woo said, maybe it'd be worthwhile to air those as well.

Evil will always win because Good is dumb

[Comboman]

Anti-corporate "journalists" like Daisey and Michael Moore do irreparable damage to the causes they supposedly support by playing loose with the facts. If I were conspiracy minded, I might assume they were working for the very corporations they rail against.

Re:Evil will always win because Good is dumb

[Uberbah]

Anti-corporate "journalists" like Daisey and Michael Moore do irreparable damage to the causes they supposedly support by playing loose with the facts.

Slight problem with that hippie punching false equivilancy: it's usually Moore's haters that play fast and loose with the facts. Like when CNN had to issue a retraction when they fudged facts in order to accuse Moore of fact fudging.

Re:Foxconn made cheap motherboards

[Anonymous Coward]

And each time I see another /. sotory on the Rasberry PI, I wonder exactly where those are being made.....

Re:Foxconn made cheap motherboards

[na1led]

My GUT feeling tells me this, as I'm sure it does for most people. I don't have to see a RAT to know that one exists.

Re:Wrong Lies

[Space cowboy]

Exactly how are "Apple spinning the entire report as false" ?

I've not read *anything* about this from Apple. I've read a whole spectrum of pieces from idiotic through incisive reporting from both sides, I've read real journalists eviscerate Daisey once the truth came out, and I've read his "account" of things he "saw". Apple have remained quite impressively restrained on the matter, as far as I can tell. I'm not sure I could be as restrained if some douchebag was lying about me in a public forum.

Simon

Hard to replace.

[MaWeiTao]

The interesting is that Foxconn actually offers a better work environment than many companies in China, and especially those by Chinese. Foxconn is a Taiwanese company, in case you're confused. The companies producing stuff domestically offer some of the most deplorable working environments which is why Chinese tend to flock to foreign companies. And the interesting thing is that it's been shown that many Chinese cities have a higher suicide rate than Foxconn's sprawling campus, a city in it's own right.

And the fact is that Apple is extremely unlikely to end their relationship with Foxconn. There aren't many companies out there that can manufacture electronics with such consistent quality, and be able to meet demand time and time again and likely at a decent cost. This is not a trivial skill set and certainly not something easily replaced.

This is not to say that things are ideal. But then no one wants electronics to cost double what they do now.

I saw Mike Daisey...

[mbeckman]

I saw Mike Daisey cut off a woman's hand and feed it to her dog. For money.

No, wait. I didn't. That was theater.

Re:I saw Mike Daisey...

[painandgreed]

I saw Mike Daisey cut off a woman's hand and feed it to her dog. For money.

No, wait. I didn't. That was theater.

But you can still claim you did and be just as much of a journalist as Mr. Daisey though.

Louis Woo?

[yodleboy]

I thought he was still stuck on the Ringworld. Maybe it's a relative.

Re:Wrong Lies

[oh_my_080980980]

You didn't read very much did you? Tim Cook denied and denied.

Mean while other news outlets did their own investigations and uncovered horrible working conditions.

But hey be a fanboy dickhead all you want.

The Foxconn suicide rate is half that of

[Brannon]

the US suicide rate. 5.4 per 100,000 vs. 11.9 per 100,000 in the US.

You seem to be quite obsessed with the plight of the Chinese worker, are you such a heartless bastard as to ignore the conditions under which Americans live and toil?

data:
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2010-05-26/tech/30097107_1_suicide-rate-foxconn-suicide-prevention
http://www.mentalhealthnewstoday.com/091245-current-suicide-rates-among-americans-highest-for-the-past-15-years

Re:Wrong Lies

[Space cowboy]

Here's a hint for you: cause generally precedes effect; Tim Cook's comments were based around the NY Times piece, not the Daisey Debacle. Neither did he whitewash away any blame (which is generally the result of 'Spin'). Here's his comments en toto:

As a company and as individuals, we are defined by our values. Unfortunately some people are questioning Apple's values today, and I'd like to address this with you directly.

We care about every worker in our worldwide supply chain. Any accident is deeply troubling, and any issue with working conditions is cause for concern. Any suggestion that we don't care is patently false and offensive to us. As you know better than anyone, accusations like these are contrary to our values. It's not who we are.

For the many hundreds of you who are based at our suppliers' manufacturing sites around the world, or spend long stretches working there away from your families, I know you are as outraged by this as I am. For the people who aren't as close to the supply chain, you have a right to know the facts.

Every year we inspect more factories, raising the bar for our partners and going deeper into the supply chain. As we reported earlier this month, we've made a great deal of progress and improved conditions for hundreds of thousands of workers. We know of no one in our industry doing as much as we are, in as many places, touching as many people.

At the same time, no one has been more up front about the challenges we face. We are attacking problems aggressively with the help of the world's foremost authorities on safety, the environment, and fair labor. It would be easy to look for problems in fewer places and report prettier results, but those would not be the actions of a leader.

Earlier this month we opened our supply chain for independent evaluations by the Fair Labor Association. Apple was in a unique position to lead the industry by taking this step, and we did it without hesitation. This will lead to more frequent and more transparent reporting on our supply chain, which we welcome. These are the kinds of actions our customers expect from Apple, and we will take more of them in the future.

We are focused on educating workers about their rights, so they are empowered to speak up when they see unsafe conditions or unfair treatment. As you know, more than a million people have been trained by our program.

We will continue to dig deeper, and we will undoubtedly find more issues. What we will not do -- and never have done -- is stand still or turn a blind eye to problems in our supply chain. On this you have my word. You can follow our progress at apple.com/supplierresponsibility.

To those within Apple who are tackling these issues every day, you have our thanks and admiration. Your work is significant and it is changing people's lives. We are all proud to work alongside you.

Buy hey, if being a dickhead and hating on Apple defines you, go ahead and waste your life as much as you like.

Simon

So, To Paraphrase Foxconn's Response:

[srobert]

"Daisey lied about having first hand knowledge about how we abuse are employees. I can think of nothing more despicable than his telling such a fib."

Re:Foxconn made cheap motherboards

[RazorSharp]

Maybe you're new around here, but if you want people to take your comments seriously you may want to utilize logic and empirical evidence rather than your GUT. Perhaps no one made you aware that this is a website for nerds - you know, people into math and science, disciplines built upon logic and empirical evidence. My gut tells me Foxconn probably partakes in some unsavory labor practices but I would never accuse them of such without evidence lest I completely discredit myself like Mike Daisey did.

You should sound like the seasoned veteran in some cop show who doesn't understand the importance of a search warrant. "I've gotta hunch, dammit, I don't need no stinkin' warrant! I know a scumbag when I see one!"

Americans are essentially competing against slaves

[Lorien_the_first_one]

A point that is not often addressed in public discourse is that Americans have been surrendering rights just to keep their jobs in the face of demands by corporate American. Corporate America is using slave labor in China as leverage to demand and acquire concessions from workers and to bust unions here. Once we call it what it is in the mainstream press, we might see greater awareness in the general population.

"Oh, wait. When I buy a phone, be it Android, Apple or *gasp* Microsoft, I'm supporting slavery. That slavery is being used against me."

This has coincidentally been accelerating for the last 30 years. 30 years? Around 30 years ago we saw the start of:

* The rise of intellectual property
* The lowest income tax rates in history
* The acceleration of the outsourcing of labor to China, Vietnam and Thailand.
* The acceleration of the continual decimation of the middle class.

I'm sure there is more, but you get the picture. Slavery is a great way to cause a depression.

Reality check

[danaris]

sustenance living is impossible when a big factory comes to town and shits on your farmland and pollutes your water supply, as is happening all over china. so unregulated industry destroys the way of life for millions of people, and they have no choice but to go work in that factory.

That...actually doesn't happen very much. The factories tend to be concentrated in areas like Shenzhen, Shanghai, and Dongguan. Sure, there were farms in some of these areas years back, but by and large, they've been urban for a while. And there's a lot of China that's still rural, where the factories don't even want to go. There's just no profit in it.

So, yeah, if you happen to be one of the few hundred—or even few thousand—farmers whose land was taken over or polluted by the factories, then that sucks, and I doubt they received much compensation, because, y'know, mostly-totalitarian regime and all that. But don't forget that that's only 0.00001%-0.0001% of the population. It's hardly a careful, concerted effort to drive people away from subsistence agriculture towards factory life.

And you know what? They don't need any such effort, because the Chinese people are flocking to factory life as fast as they can possibly manage. Subsistence agriculture sucks.

Dan Aris

Re:Reality check

[Sebastopol]

"They don't need any such effort, because the Chinese people are flocking to factory life as fast as they can possibly manage. Subsistence agriculture sucks."

Huh. I never thought of that. I don't know exact #s of people that were boned by business, but I know it is more than just a few thousand, there are thousands of villages, not people, that have been fucked over, and are trying to organize and sending "delegates" to bitch about the pollution. Sorry, no sources, all hearsay from articles I've read and unfortunately cannot reproduce on the spot here.

But what I haven't read a lot about is people deciding subsistence agriculture sucks and flocking to factories, in fact this is the first time I've heard it.

It sounds like a reasonable argument, I just haven't heard it before.

Re:Reality check

[danaris]

Well, I'm afraid I don't have any citable source to show you; this is based on the observations and experience of my wife during the 6 years in which she flew to China 5 times/year to visit the factory the company she worked for maintained there.

Similarly, though, I have not heard of loads of villages being displaced/destroyed by big business in China. So I guess we're even :-)

Dan Aris

Underage workers: the reality

[danaris]

For instance, underage workers is a serious concern. He represented that he saw underage workers where the correction says that underage workers were rare. If you are interested in this topic, his report would lead you to the false conclusion that underage workers were a problem when they are not. The reality would suggest that some underage workers do slip through the system and Foxconn needs to strengthen their checks rather than an overhaul.

It's important to realize what "underage workers" means, too. It's not children of 6-8 years old being forced to work in abominable conditions. 99% of the time, "underage workers" in China are teenagers who have used their older siblings' IDs to get jobs, so that they can make some more money for themselves or their families.

Certainly it's something that Foxconn and other companies need to be alert for. But it's a far cry from the deliberate abuse that's frequently implied by the phrase "child labour."

Dan Aris

Timing

[ThatsNotPudding]

It is the timing of this mea culpa that should disturb folks just as much as the findings. It hits the news on the same day as the new iPad goes on sale? Give me a sociopathic, walled-garden topped with razor wire, dog-wagging break.

Re:Timing

[Uberbah]

Give me a sociopathic, walled-garden topped with razor wire, dog-wagging break.

Then don't freaking buy one. Explaining to Apple Haterz that no one is holding a gun to their heads to buy an iDevice is like having to tell fundies that their remotes come with "off" buttons and their TV's have come with parental controls for ~20 years.

Re:Foxconn made cheap motherboards

[na1led]

I guess it's easy to sit there in the comfort of your home and say, "I don't believe it unless I see evidence and facts", while 1.5 Billion people are forced into slave labor. So long as these companies can keep you ignorant, you have no problems with them.

Re:Foxconn made cheap motherboards

[iluvcapra]

I wouldn't believe anything Mr. Woo has to say.

Mr. Woo regularly claims that for $30 he'll give a motherboard that works :)

Re:Sheep would rather believe a sweet lie than a d

[na1led]

So I guess all these workers are just happy with their lives, and all is good at Foxconn. Gee, we don't hear a peep from the Mexicans working in slaughter houses here in the U.S., they must be doing well also. I guess no news must be good news.

Daisey had more truth than Foxconn could handle.

[sethstorm]

"Foxconn Technology Group, Apple's largest supplier and the target of allegations of poor work conditions, welcomed a retraction of a This American Life radio program episode it said was based on lies. 'I am happy that the truth prevails, I am glad that Mike Daisey's lies were exposed,

No, but don't let the truth that Daisey did have overrule the opinion-guiding shills (known in China as 50 Maos) that you used to kill this story.

The only thing Daisey should have done was clarified it and kept the story with the truthful components. Then ask for an apology from Foxconn and Apple.

Louis Woo, a spokesman for Taipei-based Foxconn said. 'People will have the impression that Foxconn is a bad company,' Woo added, 'so I hope they will come and find out for themselves'. Foxconn also said that it has 'no plans to take legal action.'"

Where they give you a Potemkin Village tour.

I can inform you if you're not a opinion-guider.

[sethstorm]

I live in dongguan and my girlfriend knows several foxxcon workers. The biggest thing that gets lost in this whole controversy is that foxconn has i think 1 million workers. You have one million workers and you have to realize that this is the size of a small city. One accident that kills 2 people is really not that bad. 18 people committing suicide is not that bad either.

So, I'm from a city in the US that had its own version of Foxconn, but did something that Foxconn would not - actually treat their workers with some respect. Not like animals or prisoners, but like good friends or family.

The government has constantly been raising the minimum wage. The level of anti-intellectualism in america about this issue is stunning. If you were the Chinese government what would you do? These factory jobs are good jobs. And factories have to COMPETE to get workers to stay now. Working conditions are improving. Did anyone ever mention to you that in foxxcon they do your laundry for you? They have a cafeteria where the meals are provided? It is run like a military camp. If you think that is so bad, what does that tell you about the working conditions of our military?

You can have all the laws you want but your country won't enforce them on people that are on the wrong side of favor. If you have any doubt as to why folks like Bo Xilai were suddenly canned, it was due to him losing such favor since he actually took corrupt businesses that act like Foxconn to task.

If I was leading your government, Foxconn's top decision makers in China would be room temperature & lead-filled by the time Daisey's work reached the public. This would be a consequence for having to fail so badly that they had to hire a PR firm (Burston-Marsteller) to clean up the mess your government couldn't. Then the company would end up having its mainland presence erased completely from suppliers to the factory itself. At this scale, this would rival the 1989 massacres performed by rural-bound soldiers, at the order of the government of the time.

But don't let truth stand in the way if all you're going to do is just try to rehabilitate Foxconn's image.